Wah Lum's "Iron Door Bolt" Form

[taichi4eva]

Is there any footage of this form? Why is it known as "little mantis"?

Thanks

[Donkwoon]

Someone on this site said that it's demomstrated in a film called "Modern Masters" (I think). Let me know if you find it because I would like to see it as well.

I didn't konw that it was called "Iron Door Bolt" but it sounds like it has something to do with the footwork. Just a quess. When compared to the more advanced WL mantis forms, it becomes clear why it's called Little Mantis.

I've been practicing that form for a long time and I love doing it. I'm still learning things from it and have even got some ideas from this forum.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Is there any footage of this form?

It's on the Living Legends of Kung Fu volume 1 tape/CD.


Why is it known as "little mantis"?

You'll have to ask Master Chan Pui because he named it Little Mantis. He also named Wah Lum's version of Bung Bo Big Mantis.

This is all I can share right now.

http://media.putfile.com/dscf003025

[taichi4eva]

I don't know why the link is not working on my computer. What is it that you shared though? Is it a clip of the form?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Probably don't have the right codec.

It's not a very good clip, or a very good performance.

Try this - http://media.putfile.com/DSCF00302552

[Oso]

HLL, that was Little Mantis?

It was clear enough to see it.


tc4e: I can't get Putfile to play on my work computer. If you're at work or behind a firewall or server, that may be the problem.

[Citong Shifu]

There is actually two versions of Big Mantis, Wah Lum and Chen Man Ching (think thats how it's spelled). As far as Little Mantis, it shows basic footwork as with mantis handwork. I trained in Wah Lum in the late 80's and early 90's under Sifu Chan Poi and later with Sifu Sean Cochran. Sean has since retired from Wah Lum, the whole marrying into the Chan family wasn't such a good idea, at least at that time it wasn't. Anywho, I have left Wah Lum over ten years ago due to the Wah Lum forms themselves.......... I do work on big mantis, 36 hands, fan cha, soft form, little mantis, 7 kicks, most weapons, etc from time to time to keep them current. As I understand Sifu Chan has added some forms to the curriculum like little fan cha, say lok, etc. We had some fun in Wah Lum, wish things could have been different.

CS.

[mooyingmantis]

Little Mantis is a nice, solid, basic form. Excluding the opening and closing bows, it contains about 25 movements that are repeated to form a little over 50 movements. What I mean is that if you are facing East, you would bow to the East. Then you would turn to face North and execute 25 movements moving North. Then you would turn to face the South and execute the same techniques while moving South. At the end there are a few movements which end in a final Salute. It is a fairly cut and dried form, but does contain some nice techniques.

Mooying

[18elders]

did you train with sean in tampa?

[Citong Shifu]

18elders,
No, I didnt train in the Tampa school. Sean had moved to the So. Illinois / Metro- St. Louis area in the early 90's, which is where I'm from. He later closed down the Illinois school and went back to Orlando where he eventually opened the Tampa school. I'm not sure of the actual date he went back because I had left wah lum about 2 years before he left Alton, Illinois.

Did you train with Sean / Tampa?

Citong.

[18elders]

did you know dean?

[yu shan]

Citong

I trained with Sean at his Tampa school. The guy opened up and taught me and 18 Elders alot of good forms, and lion dance. I always felt lucky for the short time I got to spend with him. Did you have a guy in Alton named Dean?

My memory fails me on the story behind iron door bolt, maybe 18 Elders remembers or K. Brazier. Anyway a nice little set non the less.

I could swear I have Tracy doing three versions of Big Mantis, I`ll do some digging like I have time!

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I remember Dean. Did he follow Sean back to Orlando? Did he go back when the Tampa school closed?

Citong Shifu
One question. You learned Soft Form? All 300+ moves or just part? The reason I ask is as far as I know there aren't many who learned it. Sean must have been handing out sets like mad because normally you won't get something like that for a long long time. I don't think Sean was gone for all that long.

Also, just for info it's Chan Wan Ching.

On second thought after looking back at your post I was wondering what you meant by quitting WL because of the forms. I'm curious because then you say you still practice many of them.

So you started training at the Temple from the late '80s to early '90s. Did you move back to St. Louis with Sean? I probably know you since I started in 1990 but I was always busy just training and wasn't real sociable.

Oso
Don't look too closely at the performance. The moves aren't done very well at all. I fall apart on stage and it all goes to hell. :o

[Oso]

HLL, lol, no worries...you don't see any vids of me doing sets for a reason. It was fine, I think. There was some definite 'pop' going on in there.

[yu shan]

Speaking of vids... I`m sort of dreading the release of MQ DVD! I just hope Steve was good with the editing on my form! I do not enjoy performing.

300+ moves! Holy krap

[Citong Shifu]

18elders, Yu Shan, Hua Lin Laoshi,
Yeah I know that ignorant moron Dean McBride..... That guy was really stupid. He started in the So. Illinois school with me and Sean, first in taiji then later kung fu. He has pretty much back stabbed everyone. He did train at the Tampa school the last year it was open. Matter of fact, when he left Tampa / Sean, dean had taken Sean's spear di so gee, some wah lum certificates (which dean signed to certify himself for higher levels), a copy of sean's master video tape that had sean doing all of his forms from level 10b to level 6. and a few other things. Dean is still in this area trying to teach wah lum, but calls it 5 immortal kung fu, lol, he such a phony..... I know this information due to dean trying to teach the old Illinois wah lum students. Most of the old students are my friends and many of the train with me today, they have seen Sean's master forms tape (dean played it for them so they would believe that he was 6th level, thats what they said). Oh yeah, he also stole Angelo's iron palm bag before he left Tampa. Angello threatened to beat his ass if he didn't send it back, lol, he sent it back. If you trained in Tampa then you should already know most of this. Anyway enough about this guy.

I spent about 6 years in wah lum. The first couple was off and on in Orlando, I couldn't afford to pay the price for the professional training program, so I traveled back and forth when I could. Sean came to So. Illinois / Metro St. Louis where I lived in 1990 or 91 where I trained full-time with him until 94, I think he left Alton and moved back to Orlando / Tampa in 96. Dont remember the exact dates.

As for soft form, I didnt learn the 300+ movement form or it doesnt seem to be 300 movemnts. If it's not the whole form then wah lum stikes again. Sean didn't hand out forms when he was in Illinois, we trained hard full-time; forms, weapons, lion dance, etc. Please don't be judgemental.

My statement about wah lum / forms was made due to my disappointment with the style/system and not so much the forms themselves...... This is largely due to the red book that Sifu Chan published. I think its call the training manual now, but before it was just referred to as the "wah lum red book". This book explained more or less why the wah lum jut sow tong long didn't look or have the charateristic of traditional tong long styles. Put it this way, I didnt start training in the mantis style to learn a cross style of mantis and mok gar (sifu chan's family style). It was a disappointment when I found out that I wasn't learning the traditional jut sow mantis.......... Anywho, I mean no disrepect towards wha lum and its members, this is just my reasons for leaving at that time. However, I do know that many of the old wah lum teachers have left the organization, due to their own disagreements with sifu chan. Like I said, I had alot of fun in wah lum and Sean was a very, very talented martial artist, probably still is... I just wanted a more characteristic mantis style than wah lum offered. Ok, I'll end it here. Hope I haven't offended anyone.

Citong.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Sorry if it sounded like negative accusations. Sometimes I go right to the heart of the thought and forget how it comes across.

MC told me the number of moves in Soft Form but I don't remember. I think it was 316. I was curious because in my 15 years with WL I only learned a small piece of it at a seminar. I know of a few other Sifus who learned a little more but I never heard of anyone learning the whole thing, or even half.

A couple of Sifus recently paid for privates with MC and learned about 1/3 of Soft Form.

Rumor has it that all of WL's techniques are in this form. I think that's why it's in demand and why nobody ever learns it all.

So it seems odd that a student of 6 years would have learned more than a lot of the 15 to 20+ year students and Sifus.

There are some lucky students of branch schools out there that learned advanced sets long before they should have and I've seen and heard MC's opinion of this. Let's just say he didn't approve.

No worries about offending anyone, you spoke the truth as you see it and you have every right to your opinion.

The only thing I would question is how you would know whether you were learning the traditional Jut Sow Mantis or not. What do you have to compare Wah Lum to? I would be really interested in any information, especially video, of non-Wah Lum traditional Jut Sow Mantis.

I'm not trying to bash you or anything but many leave and make claims, like you just did, that Wah Lum isn't what it claims to be yet every new student learns that it's a mix of styles that includes Jut Sow Mantis. Even if Sean misrepresented it to you it's clearly stated in the full name of the style as well as the student handbook.

No hard feelings, just trying to clear up misconceptions.

BTW, a copy of Sean's master tape of forms is like a goldmine! :-)

Also, it must have been '91 or later when Sean went back to St. Louis because I started in 1990 when Richard Allen was the head instructor. After Richard left to run a school Sean took over as head instructor. I don't recall exactly how long he filled that position but it was awhile.
D amn, I'm bad with dates and plagued with a bad memory. Or maybe blessed with bad memory since all those bad politics are useless to keep in memory. :-)

[Citong Shifu]

Hua Lin Laoshi,
After reading your post on soft form, I'm pretty sure I don't know the full 300+ movement set. Yeah, I also heard that soft form had all of the wah lum techniques within the set. Most likely, I learned the piece that sean had learned. I think the reason why I was taught the form was that I have good flexibility and could do very stable tam tui's, thats what we called them, then). I dont know, who knows, lol. I dont have any info on traditional jut sow mantis. I believe tracy can tell you more about this subject. He was suppost to have trained with a jut sow master on the west coast. Anyway, this subject was just my experience with wl. I do not talk bad about sifu chan or his art nor disrespect the teachings, just wanted to do something more characteristic of mantis.

Take care.
Citong.

[Corwyn]

I've found this board to be both educational and entertaining but being a total newbie I find some of this discussion both disturbing and perplexing.


While I understand that to protect the integrity and the quality of any art "full knowledge" must and should be limited to the select few who have shown the skill and dedication to earn that right. I find some of it quit disturbing on 2 levels.

I DO NOT mean to be insulting by any means - I am just trying to understand how this works - but how can you claim/receive the title of sifu and not know the whole system? and if this is the case, has it always been the case, and is it the case with every art? How do you have integrity of the art/system if sifu(s) aren't sure what/how much/if they know of the system and different sifu(s) may or may not know the same thing?
Then doesn't it just become wah lum (or insert any art) of sifu x kung fu that may or may not be the entire wah lum tam tui of Chan Pui who may or may not know the whole entire wl of wong kam wing etc????????
I mean at some date in the future GM Chan will pass, is anyone really sure that anyone really knows the system completely? Even more importantly is able to teach it, because being a great teacher and a great martial artists are NOT necessarily the same thing


Which bring me to the second question. As a "student" how do I know that what I am being taught is the same thing and not just some watered down stuff to get my money month in month out????

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Excellent points and possibly warranting a separate thread.

The title Sifu merely means teacher. Don't confuse it with Master or Grandmaster. It doesn't mean you have mastered the style. These titles have been discussed on the forums in the past and there are differing opinions on what constitutes each.

For the most part to be a Sifu all you need are students. Generally within a system there is a minumum skill/knowledge requirement to teach. That does not mean you have nothing left to learn.

If you look at Karate your authorization to teach comes at the 1st Black Belt level yet many go on to 2nd, 3rd, etc. degrees of BB.

Disciples and lineage holders are another topic altegether.

Now in the case of Wah Lum completion of 8th level gives you consideration for taking the sifu test.

As far as passing it on Master Chan is passing it all to his daughter Mimi. She will be the only one to have it all. That will make her the GM of the system.

Now, how to know if you're getting the real thing or being scammed? Research, ask questions. For newbies they usually don't know so you trust that the guy teaching is legit.

For Wah Lum there is a student handbook that lists everything. There are also many events and opportunities to see other Sifus in the system plus there are video tapes available from past anniversary shows. The fact that they have a current certification posted on the wall is a good indication that you are getting Master Chan Pui's Wah Lum.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I believe tracy can tell you more about this subject. He was suppost to have trained with a jut sow master on the west coast.

Hmm, Tracy's school is about 5 minutes from my house so maybe I'll stop in again. Haven't been there in awhile

I know of the guy in California but it's my understanding he only teaches Chinese and Tracy isn't.


just wanted to do something more characteristic of mantis.

I've felt the same way. The taste of Mantis you get in Wah Lum is excellent and I think it dominates the system. Makes you want to see more. Guess that's why it gets top billing even though it's second to Tam Tui in the official name. :-)

[Citong Shifu]

Hua Lin Laoshi, yeah, talk to Tracy. I'm not sure, but I remember being told that Tracy did some training with the guy?????????? Ok, talk to you later.

Citong

[18elders]

Is soft form something MC put together as i don't remember that on the list of 12 forms that Lee Kwan Shan's wah lum system constisted of.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Don't know. Soft Form isn't in the list of the 12 LKS forms but then again neither is Big Mantis. Maybe it has another name. :-)

[18elders]

i believe it was listed as beng bu ( big mantis)

[Radplaiddude]

I know of the guy in California but it's my understanding he only teaches Chinese and Tracy isn't.


Quote:
Where at in California????

[Radplaiddude]

I know of the guy in California but it's my understanding he only teaches Chinese and Tracy isn't.


Where at in California????

[yu shan]

Corwyn

Now this is just my opinion here guys. But I would not worry about the material you are learning. I`m pretty sure your in good hands. Your teacher had to pass a rigorous difficult test right in front of the grand teacher. Who watches each and every move. Trust me, if the ole guy sees something he doesnt like he calls you down on it and fixes it. Corwyn, are you not satisfied with your teacher or your training? There is plenty of material there to keep you busy for a long long time. If anything, maybe you can use this training as sort of a stepping stone to doing another art. I found WL gave me a strong foundation, got into some great shape, met some wonderful peeps, traveled and it opened some wonderful opportunities in the Tanglang world for me. I had 11 good years in WL, I just moved on to learn something else. But I am thankful for the training I received and the friends I made. If you would like to talk by phone, pm me for this number. Enjoy yourself and train hard.

[Corwyn]

Hua Lin Laoshi

Thank you for your response. I guess that makes sense, one should always continue to learn yet have developed enough skill to teach. However, when you talk about how Master Chan is passing everything to Mimi -and I really do not mean this to be rude or disrespectful in any way so please accept my apology in advance - the first response of the cynic in me (yes I am working on that :) ) was to play the wedding scene from the Godfather in my head - where Brando tells "Sony" never to give anything important to the new son-in-law. Something like "let him earn a living, but never involve him in the family business".

Is this traditional practice in all arts (and maybe this should be a different thread)? My concern/interest from an academic point of view is - really how well/accurately is the system(any system using this method) being preserved using this tradition? So for example with something like Soft form that has 300+ moves the skill and temperament of the teacher is as equally important as the dedication and skill of the pupil. If you have a great (fill in the blank) who is a lousy teacher and great student the skill and knowledge will die.

From my own experience - I grew up in Europe playing soccer. I was good enough that I played on the under 16 national team for my country. I am not saying I was the next Pele or anything but had it not been for the fact that I valued freedom more than soccer I would be playing (or would have while younger) soccer professionally. A few years back I was asked to coach a private club team of kids between 11-13 and I SU*%ed raw eggs at it. I simply do not have the skills and or temperament to teach.
So as good a player as I am, if soccer's future depended on me - well you get the picture.


I've never met Master Chan or Mimi and at this point I probably wouldn't recognize them if I bumped into them at the mall. Their Kung Fu may be SUPER but are they qualified/have the skills and temperament to be good teachers/students?
And again, this can/should be applied to any system that uses this method of
passing on knowledge from one generation to another.
Add to this the dynamic of a child parent relationship - I know I have different standards for my own children then for others and they view me and behave differently towards me than towards other adults. This then creates dynamics which don't exist in other teacher/student relationships. How is the integrity of the art preserved? Is there some mechanism that has been built into the tradition of passing the information on in this fashion that offers protection against these kinds of pitfalls(assuming one is interested in doing so) ?



Cor

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

i believe it was listed as beng bu ( big mantis)

That was my point. It wasn't listed under it's current and commonly known (among Wah Lum peeps) name.

When I tried to match the 12 with what's currently taught there were some I had no clue about. Any one of them could be what's called Soft Form. The only way to tell would be to see the 12 performed.

Got some video to share?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Corwyn
I really can't speak for other arts. Maybe someone more knowledgeable could speak up.

From what I've seen and read some styles designate one student to be the lineage holder and everything is passed on to him. He then becomes the head of the system when his teacher retires or dies.

Other disciples may get the complete system (or not) but only one is designated top dog. In the case of Wah Lum this person is Master Chan's daughter Mimi. He also taught in a way that only she will get it all. Smart move on his part.

Master Chan keeps tight control on the Wah Lum system. You will not find a Wah Lum teacher that didn't come from his organization.

As far as good skill and being a good teacher, they are two different things. That's why you should look at the students, not the teacher, when evaluating a school.

Whether Mimi is a good teacher or not never entered the equation. He's leaving the system to family, good bad or indifferent. His choice, he can do what he wants.

Master Chan has organized the system and added a lot to make it what it is today. In a lot of ways it's his system which is based on Lee Kwan Shan's original creation.

In any system each generation modifies the teaching in some way. In most cases it's expected. In ome cases it changes enough that a branch style splits off and goes in a slightly different direction. That's how the different styles of Northern Mantis got to where they are today. So change is not neccessarily a bad thing. It adds diversity and new ideas. Without change the style stagnates and dies out.

[18elders]

Nope, soft form is not on the list.
But there are tam tui forms on the list that are not taught in wah lum. Does the current wah lum represent wah lum tam tui?

[brothernumber9]

From an outsider looking in, it would not be surprising if Sifu Tu Truong (sp?) or Sifu Bob Rosen or someone like/amongst them would also learn the "entire" system.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

18elders
You sound very sure of yourself. You know that for a fact? Have you seen examples of the 12 forms?

I only say it's possible because I don't know for a fact that it isn't one of the 12. I suspect it isn't, I just can't say for sure.

Whether it is or isn't doesn't matter much anyhow. I'm more interested in whether it really contains all the Wah Lum techniques.

Also, since I don't know all of the Wah Lum system (you know more of it than I do) I can't answer if any Tan Tui sets from the original 12 are in MC's Wah Lum.

All I know is what's listed in the handbook with the exception of WL Lan Jit. MC says WL has a version of it but he must have renamed it like he did with Bung Bo/Big Mantis. It leads me to believe there's more than what's listed in the handbook.

If that's the case then all 12 original sets could be in the system. I'd be interested in hearing if you have information that indicates they aren't.

Maybe those 12 sets are reserved for family only. MC is very old fashion and traditional.

[18elders]

I guess someone should ask Master Chan about?
Let us know what he says if anyone does.

If soft form contains all the wah lum moves??
Good question, if LKS has 12 forms he taught, and MC has over a 100, what would be all the wah lum moves? The 12 from LKS or the 100 plus from MC?

[ironfenix]

Since most of those sets have repeated movements, then you would have that many techniques to do I guess.

Side note - I had a dream that MC taught me a really advanced secret WL set but I couldn't remember it in the morning. It had some flying elements in it though.

israel

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

If soft form contains all the wah lum moves??
Good question, if LKS has 12 forms he taught, and MC has over a 100, what would be all the wah lum moves? The 12 from LKS or the 100 plus from MC?

I'm not good with math but if you had 50 moves there are an awful lot of combinations you can make out of them. I'm sure you could get more than 100 forms out of that. Personally I would prefer 12 core forms with all the moves than trying to remember 100 different variations of the core moves. Actually I like the idea on one big long form like some styles do, or like Soft Form.

I would say all the WL moves would be all the moves found in the original 12 sets plus whatever moves MC has added into the system. Remember it is his to modify if he wants.

Wah Lum is whatever MC says it is. Do you practice Wang Lang's Mantis? Has it been modified or anything added to it?

Is 8 Step Mantis any less authentic than 7 Star Mantis? Somebody dropped or added moves.

[Citong Shifu]

This is one of the other things that I didn't like about Wah Lum, there's too many secrets............. Who know's the truth????????? What is the truth???????? Everything is based pretty much on he said, she said. How can anyone obtain a real degree of skill and proficeincy without having the proper training and knowledge to draw / work from? It sounds as if there's only two people who have an actual understanding of Wah Lum; M. chan and mimi. Whats that say about 20+ years of teaching hundreds if not thousands of students??????? I'm glad that I'm not part of the uncertainty that surrounds this system anymore. Although, my days in Wah Lum were some of the greatest. I met many people, made lots of friends, and had loads of fun. Hopefully someday we can all meet again without bias and reunite old frienships.

Take care.
Citong.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I don't understand what the extent of MC's knowledge of forms has to do with what you learn.

There are plenty of Sifus who know much more than what they teach. Why is MC singled out? He knows many forms that are not Wah Lum. Is he expected to tell each new student exactly what he knows before they can learn something useful?

Is your punch any weaker or unuseable just because MC didn't tell you about some forms he knows?

I really don't get it.


Everything is based pretty much on he said, she said.

You're going to find quite a bit of that in MA.


How can anyone obtain a real degree of skill and proficeincy without having the proper training and knowledge to draw / work from?

By training what you learned and not worrying about whether MC has more knowledge than what he's showing you. Most Sifus hold back until they feel you're ready. He teaches Iron Palm, but not to everyone.

His Iron Palm jow formula is secret. Should you not join just because he won't tell you how to make his jow? If you don't learn how to make the jow does that invalidate the stances you learn?

MC takes the vast knowledge he's gained over the years and decides what will be included in the system he teaches. He is in no way obligated to teach you or anyone else everything he knows. He doesn't even need to have a school and teach. He could keep it closed door and only within the family. Or take it to his grave.


It sounds as if there's only two people who have an actual understanding of Wah Lum

I have a pretty good understanding of the Wah Lum system as taught by Master Chan. Whether I have an understanding of what was taught by Lee Kwan Shan is debatable. Most likely I don't have a clue. Does that mean I can't punch, kick, trap, throw, etc.?


Whats that say about 20+ years of teaching hundreds if not thousands of students???????

What that say's is that he put a lot of time and effort to build a large system out of a relatively small, obscure, pretty much unknown system. There are very few practioners of the original art created by LKS outside of MC's organization. If it wasn't for him nobody would know about the style and it woul have died out completely.

He could very easily claim to be the originator yet he continues to give credit to his first Sifu.

[Citong Shifu]

Sorry, I'm not trying to single out anyone, but we are talking about Wah Lum and pondering the facts on M. chan not teaching the complete arts etc....

As far as learning all his knowledge, I didn't say that. All that matters to me is that I learn what is advertised or promised to me. What does wah lum advertise; wah lum tam tui northern praying mantis kung fu. I didn't see all of his family arts in the name of the system....... Again, M. chan charges members tuition for kung fu training, so his knowledge on forms, etc is of a great importance. To not request or demand proper training from a teacher is like buying a lemon from a car salesmen.... Dont you agree?

As far as, was I any weaker, etc from wah lum training, YES...... When i started with my teacher now, Shifu Cai Ying, He wanted to completely review all my kung fu. Long story short, He had me start from the basic stances, postures, etc before he would accept as a regular student. I had no real power, speed, stability, etc. Pretty embarrassing. You know, I always thought I was pretty good back then. I had won several tournaments, etc, but I guess I was wrong. Anywho, I am who I am today because of my teacher now. He teaches me as I advance. He makes sure that I understand the teachings and the art so I can continue to increase skills. Most of all, he doesn't withhold anything from me........ Now, this is based on my relationship with my Shifu, if i was not trustworthy or a bully, I doubt he would show me everything. The point is this, Sifu's should be responsible for their teachings and students. Only in cases of students not being of good ethics should reserve be made on their teachings.

I dont know? This is my take on the whole thing. I don't represent the majority and dont want to, just me and my intent or ambitions.....

Take care and train hard.
Citong.

[woliveri]

To those who have been in Wah Lum and then had a Sifu who didn't hold anything back understand the different relationships. I agree with you Citong Shifu.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I had similar experience in Karate. I learned at one school. When I went to another school they told me I was doing things wrong and showed me their way. Then at the next school I was once again doing things wrong so they showed me their way. I got tired of that so when I signed up at Wah Lum I decided to stick it out.

I have had 3 different KF masters tell me 3 different ways of doing a proper cross leg stance. All 3 had valid reasons for why they do it their way and why the others are wrong. It all boils down to finding what's right for you.

I believe Wah Lum delivers what they advertise. I don't buy the argument from some that there's no mantis in the style. Most have later admitted that they see lot's of mantis in the style.

I don't believe the claims about Wah Lum being Choy Lay Fut since I've studied CLF and find it quite different than Wah Lum. There is a heavy southern influence in Wah Lum so instead of being a pure northern or southern style it has elements of both. CLF is a mix of north and south too so maybe that's why some think they are the same.

Does the name have to reflect all influences in a system? Can you point out which forms are from MC's family arts?

What do you consider 'proper training'? Just curious.


Now, this is based on my relationship with my Shifu, if i was not trustworthy or a bully, I doubt he would show me everything

So you did not have a close enough relationship with MC to learn what you feel you deserve? Is that your problem or his?

Traditionally in CMA you trust your training to your sifu and live with the decisions he makes on what you learn. It's our modern American way to expect everything to be handed to us. Cultural difference.

[Citong Shifu]

I hear you. Some teachers just want to bash other teachers reputation, so they tell someone their stuff is wrong, it's suppost to be done this or that way. This will happen no matter what, but kung fu is kung fu! Stances are stances, postures are postures, etc. Sure there will be variations and one will have to adhere to that stylistic difference, but twist stance is twist stance, etc. It doesn't matter how one does twist stance, what matters is if you can make it strong and stable with correct posture and intent opposed to looking pretty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As long as you feel your getting what you feel is the real deal, then you have found your art. That is a good thing. Others opinion shouldn't get you bogged down or hinder your real intent towards your training.

As far as wal lum being more southern inflienced, I don't buy that. The mok gar is noticably marked as is the mantis. Have you ever seen the traditional mok gar forms? But, this is my analysis. If you really wanted to find the answers to the questions you've asked, you would look deeper into you art!!!!!

Proper training, well, hmmmmm. Proper training is training that was intended to build great skill within the chinese martial arts, not to hinder or hold a student back. Thats a long discussion, proper training consist of so many elements its hard to generalize.


My relationship with M. chan and wah lum had nothing to do with what I deserved, but rather deserving to learn what I was explained and promised, " authentic northern praying mantis". I dont expect to be handed anything, but if one wants to put a price on the art then by all means I want what I want within reason of course. M. chan demands money for training. Do you think it's fair for someone to make you pay for something and give you what he/she wants. Can you tell M. chan how much less you want to pay him and expect more training, of course not.

I'm trying to be logical here, if he would have taught me for free then there would be no reason to wonder what and how much, know what I mean. I think alot of sifu's now expect us to give, give, give, but give less in return.

I'm sincerely happy that you found your MA calling with wah lum. I hope M. Chan and the rest of the organization continues to do well throughout the years to come. Your asking me very specific questions about things I would normally not comment about, so I'm sorry about any of my comments that may offend you or others.

Take care.
Citong.

[K.Brazier]

Within the list of Lee Kwan Shan's 12 forms is written Yau Ling kuen.

There is an old 7* form called Rou Ling Chuen. Could be that one, But I doubt it.

Yau could be rou which means soft.
There is the possibility that WL soft form is a poor translation of Yau Ling.

Also, Lian Huan Zhang is in WL's original 12 forms.
This name or a similar one is also in 8 Step, the manuscript was recorded in GM wei's book.

TJPM Also has a form with this similar name. I learned it in Taiwan. But the history of the form is that it came from Ditang ground fighting.

This may also be a form in common with old Wah Lum.

What to do?
Ask MC Chan t write the Chinese for soft form and rau ling kuen.

Compare all versions of interconnected 5 palms in WL, 8 Step and TJPM.

Kevin

[Shaolin Dude]

you guys got the list of 12 forms lee kwan shan taught? I thought it was a secret.

[yu shan]

Shaolin Dude

I know who has it, but I have to ask permission. And I do not want to say who has it because out of repect. To see this list would not be a bad thing though.

[Chop Socki]

I've fallen so far behind in this thread that I don't have time to address all the things that jumped into my head (fingers?) as I read it, but one item did jump out that I wanted to react to before it got lost.

Several people have expressed the belief that, because they pay money, they're entitled to learn specific material, or at a particular pace. While this philosophy certainly applies when purchasing things like carpeting or women's shoes, I honestly don't believe that it's appropriate where martial arts is concerned.

What you are taught should be authentic - at least, within the constaints of the system you're learning. It should be meaningful, and taught with integrity and good spirit. When appropriate, it should be relevant. These things are a reflection of the quality of the school, and the respectful attitude of the instructors.

What you are not purchasing, however, is the right to order a la carte from the material that comprises the system, any more than someone who walks in off the street with no prior experience has the right to point to a weapon hanging on the wall and say 'I don't care about your stances and basic techniques, how much to teach me that thing'. In the same way, I find it entirely reasonable that higher level material is witheld until someone has demonstrated their honesty, integrity and willingness to work hard in order to achieve success. There's no specific duration of service associated with this: for some it happens quickly, for others, it may never happen, and much like one can never proclaim himself a 'master', I believe that if you have to ask for something you haven't been taught, you've pretty much answered the question of why it hasn't happened yet.

I'll finish with an analogy from my childhood: when I was young, I was a very serious classical musician, and took two private lessons a week from a very widely recognized 'master'. The arrangement he had with my parents was that for a specific sum, I would get 30 minutes of private attention per lesson. The far more meaningful arrangement he had with me was that if I had practiced hard and was prepared, he would stay for an hour. Like a good sifu, there was no fooling my teacher. If I had demonstrated the appropriate discipline and appreciation for what he was willing to offer, I was blessed with an hour of invaluable attention from a true master of his craft. If I merely passed the time between lessons, after 30 minutes, he would smile politely and leave.

I learned a very valuable lesson from that man, and I've been similarly blessed with martial arts instructors who lived by a very similar code.

- CS

[Corwyn]

CS,

Couldn't agree with you more! However there IS one caviot!
Imagine if that piano instructor was telling you (or your parents)
that "if you just keep paying me that X amount of dollars , I will show your son how he could be the next (I don't know any famous contemporary paino players)"
But the reality was that (like me) you couldn't cary a tune in a bucket.

You are absolutely right people progress at their own pace and some do not
posses the character. discipline (what ever) to be advanced. It is absolutely the duty and the right of the sifu to make that determination.

But the other side of that coin is that - if this is the case, then the sifu should tell this to the student and stop taking his money. Because that is just as disshonorable as teaching someone you know isn't "worthy". IMHO

[Chop Socki]

Corwyn -

Thanks for the kind interpretation. You seem to have captured my intent precisely. To clarify one point though, I believe that since everyone is 'blessed' with different levels of talent in different areas, it's entirely reasonable to expect people to achieve different levels of advancement in the martial arts. A sifu who continues to accept money and speak encouragingly to a student isn't necessarily cheating him out of his hard-earned cash, he may simply be trying to elevate him to the highest level which he, specifically, can attain. Of course, we all know stories about places where they hang black belts on the wall with your name on it the day you walk in and fork over $xxx dollars for the 'black belt program'. It might be a great motivational tool, but realistically, I've never believed that a level or a particular technique or form should be the reward simply for 'time served'.

I learned a long time ago that everyone's progress is best measured against their own full potential. Doing so has resulted in many opportunities to celebrate achievements that are meaningful to each individual.

Thanks again for sharing your wisdom, and good luck in your continued studies,

- CS

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Imagine if that piano instructor was telling you (or your parents)
that "if you just keep paying me that X amount of dollars , I will show your son how he could be the next (I don't know any famous contemporary paino players)"
But the reality was that (like me) you couldn't cary a tune in a bucket.
[clip]
But the other side of that coin is that - if this is the case, then the sifu should tell this to the student and stop taking his money. Because that is just as disshonorable as teaching someone you know isn't "worthy". IMHO

I'm not really following the logic here. Just because a student does not have the natural ability to make it to the top of the MA world and be a famous champion, practitioner or instructor doesn't mean they can't learn to defend themselves, teach or coach others.

I certainly hope your teacher isn't telling you he's going to make you the next Jet Li or anything.

Over the years I've seen extremely uncoordinated guys work hard go on to win at competitions. I've also seen plenty of guys who's skills are not impressive but are very good teachers and turn out top notch competitors.

The fact that I will never be an internationally recognized master does not prevent me from working to be the best I can.

BTW, bad analogy because anyone can learn MA. You don't need natural talent. It helps but it's not a requirement. However reaching the top of the field is a different story.

[woliveri]

The bottom line is if it is known that a teacher will only take you so far up the mountian and only his family members can go to the top then you either have to be satisfied with that or find another mountian. Of course, if a teacher is not clear that you will never get to the top of "his" mountian then that borders on shady teaching.

[Corwyn]

I'm not really following the logic here. Just because a student does not have the natural ability to make it to the top of the MA world and be a famous champion, practitioner or instructor doesn't mean they can't learn to defend themselves, teach or coach others.

I certainly hope your teacher isn't telling you he's going to make you the next Jet Li or anything.

Over the years I've seen extremely uncoordinated guys work hard go on to win at competitions. I've also seen plenty of guys who's skills are not impressive but are very good teachers and turn out top notch competitors.

The fact that I will never be an internationally recognized master does not prevent me from working to be the best I can.

BTW, bad analogy because anyone can learn MA. You don't need natural talent. It helps but it's not a requirement. However reaching the top of the field is a different story.

With all do respect I think you missed the point I was trying to make, or I just didn't really make it well, which is probably the case.

Let me try to say it another way.
As a total novice to CMA I am looking around my area for a school. I look in the phone book and the internet and find a half a dozen schools. All in some shape or form espousing their systems strengths and superiority to all others. Some even go as far as telling me that their lineage is from some secret temple etc.
I am smart enough to recognize this stuff for what it is so I move on to ones that are more realistic and give me what appears to be more genuine info.
I am physically fit, so I am able to do all the things required. So I decide to join after looking at the information available and the promise that I will be taught (fill in the blank) Kung Fu. ONLY, after years of commitment, hard work and regardless of how good or dedicated I am, I come to find out that what you really meant to say was that I will learn SOME of (fill in the blank) kung fu.

Now this has nothing to do with becoming the recognized leader/ inheritor of a system or a "superstar" MA. What it has to do with is a perceived contract.
I promised to be honorable and committed, train hard and pay my money. And you promised to teach me xyz kung fu. Not just SOME of xyz kung fu.

Now does this diminish the things I learned? No I don't think so. But I think that if you look at the many 8 step threads on here. Or the many people who have left WH. THIS may explain the reason that some have a very bad taste in their mouth. It may also explain why the so called McDojos are so popular.

Now whether this is an issue of CAVIAT EMPTOR from the students perspective,
a cultural clash/misunderstanding or something else is perhaps a debate for another thread.

Myself, I am pretty clear on what I want and whether my Sifu can give that to me. I believe that I am not betraying my teacher or showing any disrespect
to him or to the school by questioning how and why things work. More so I have the right to this as part of my responsibility as a student in order to determine whether those whom I accept as teachers are in fact worthy of said status.


I don't know maybe I am not making any sense and I am just rambling.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

This is a very good point being brought up. Not only should a student ask questions but he should also make it clear to the instructor what he wants/expects from the class.

If you were interested in learning the whole system and one day teaching it should be clear to the student whether that option is there. It should also be clear to the teacher that is your goal.

I think a lot of the problems stem from the instructor and student having two different ideas about the training. Sometimes the instructor isn't sure if the student is looking to get into shape, compete or become a teacher.

I think a lot of people get the idea that everyone pays and everyone gets everything. As unfair as it might sound it really doesn't work that way. Maybe it's just a difference is culture.

There's more to it than just paying for classes. In our typical American way of thinking that should be enough but from the Chinese perspective the payment is just a small part of it. In some cases your dedication and hard work counts much more than whether your tuition is paid promptly.

If you're in it for the long haul make sure your teacher knows that but you need to tell him in both words AND actions. He should be equally straight forward with you about your chances of success.

Now to use Wah Lum as an example again the situation is such that Master Chan has already taken disciples and had a bad experience with them. This happened well before I got there so there was no chance for me to be 'in the door' so to speak. So the best I, or anyone else, could hope for was to advance as far up the ranks as I could.

There were a few of us that wished he would open up and take a chance on a few more but it was a done deal.

[Citong Shifu]

That makes perfect sense.... This is what I've been trying to say in my last couple of posts. I compared it to the money issue for simplicity, but this only added another debate and others coparing apples to oranges..... All of us understand that regardless of payment kung fu takes many years to perfect. So enough on that issue....

I have got to learn to make better comparisons, lol :cool:

Citong.

[Citong Shifu]

That makes perfect sense.... This is what I've been trying to say in my last couple of posts. I compared it to the money issue for simplicity, but this only added another debate and others coparing apples to oranges..... All of us understand that regardless of payment kung fu takes many years to perfect. So enough on that issue....

I have got to learn to make better comparisons, lol :cool:

Citong.

[yu shan]

Iron door bolt is actually a technique. K. Brazier showed my older kf brother (18elders) how this tech. is applied. 18 elders told me it was almost like a dengta to the head. I will ask Shifu Brazier to show me this when I see him in a few weeks.

This thread has steered way off course. Very good thoughts by all though. I`m just happy I tell my newbie students... ya want to do Tanglang? And that is about it, no promises, just training and learning. It is what it is, no more no less. I have no gold at the end of the rainbow. But plenty of treasures to share. If folks want to complicate my life with this black belt master stuff, go away and find something else. It is not what I`m about.