Respect In Dojo

[Beau Brummie]

Hi Guys

I'm a newbie to Kung Fu and have only been training for 5 months. Another MA asked me if I called my teacher Sensei?

I said no and as it was Kung Fu it would be Sifu anyhow.

He then asked whether I called him Sifu and I answered no I call him by his Christian name.

A look of horror came on his face and he said I was/am deeply disrespecting my teacher.

Is this the case? I have never been told by my teacher to address him as Sifu and I have never been rebuked by him for using his Christian name. When other newcomers join I have never heard him ask them to call him Sifu either? Having not been instructed to do anything different I called him by his name as I would anybody else. As far as respect goes my teacher has it anyway as would any other human being.

Is there a problem here? None of the other more advanced students have made a point of telling me this. I would hate to think I'm disrespecting him in any way.

This guy I was talking to also said I should bow on entering and leaving the training hall. I haven't been taught this either.

Can you clear this one up for me guys as I'm enjoying my training and want to make sure I get the etiquette right.

Thanks
Chris

[syn]

Well I call my sifu by sifu (:p) and bow when enterign and leaving, but it's a really a preference to the sifu you train under. Some are more strict and others aren't. If you see alot of other people in your school calling him by sifu you probably should too. He may just be nice and not say anythign but it does show respect. It's more the atmosphere of the school that determines this, so if your sifu is more laid back and would rather be called by his last name then by all mean.

[hskwarrior]

It is customary for a student to call his sifu by that title. I have been with my sifu for about 25 years now and still never call him by his given name.

its not about respect, its about he is your sifu, in other words master. I usually tell my students they can call me by my given name outside of gung fu activities, but when it comes to training, I AM SIFU, they are the students.

it is up to the senior students to correct the newbie's and tell them to call the teacher "sifu, sensei, master...whatever.

Referring to your sifu by his given name infers that you and him are equals, which is not the case. your sifu out of being humble will not force you to call him sifu, but you should anyway. he is not your friend.

if you want to honor the person for imparting their knowledge, then you should call them by their appropriate title.

its just the way I see it.

HSK

[PangQuan]

I agree with hsk, assuming the teacher has a formal traditional setting and way of being.

[viper]

Yep bow before entering and leaving the kwoon I always call my sifu sifu its respect I somtimes forget his name coz i never use it it just is a good thing to do it.

[SanHeChuan]

It sounds like the guy you were talking to had a Japanese style background and they are far more into the rituals of etiquette than you will typically find in a kung fu school. However in kung fu there is generally some amount of bowing and sifu is usually what you call your teacher. But it’s really up to your instructor how much ceremony and the like he wants. I had a Taiwanese san shou instructor who preferred to be called “coach”, and there was no bowing. I had another teacher that instructed us to call him sifu, and there was bowing when entering. Buy the way with swinging doors its easier to bow when entering the training area (usually where the mats begin) rather that trying to bow in the door way.
My last instructor didn’t asked to be called sifu, and I never addressed him with either a name or a title.
Just watch what the rest of the class is doing. And if the instructor bows when coming in then you know where you stand on that.

[Mr Punch]

Ding-dong! The correct answer is, call him by his christian name and do not bow when you enter or leave the kwoon (dojo is Japanese).

If he wanted you to call him sifu all the other students would be calling him sifu too. If he wanted you to bow, the other students would be bowing. Check the advanced students not the newbs.

1) Of course if you have any doubts you should ask a) the other students and b) the sifu, not necessarily in that order.

2) If you see the other students doing something you're not either alter your behaviour accordingly or refer to (1).

Teachers have different manners and customs, as do schools and lineages.

The people here who are saying you have to call him sifu are a) wrong, and b) going to make you look and feel a bit silly! :D

BTW, who's your sifu? I guess by your screen name you're from Birmingham, UK, which is where I'm from, so depending on your style I may know your sifu personally, have met him, know of him, or be able to help you directly with your question!

[Sekabin]

Nothing to add really (just feel like adding something), except to agree with the suggestion that you should be looking at/asking the senior students about it. If your Sifu is 'traditional' then he may want you to call him Sifu (I was going to say if he's Chinese he may want this... but then thought that was a generalisation too far). I'd also say it depends probably on the whole way of teaching - if the class is really informal and he teaches more like a 'coach' then probably his first name is what he's used to and wants.

I personally wouldn't want to be called 'coach' but if you're teaching in a sporting environment that seems suitable.

[neit]

i say go with the flow. the most senior students usually know whats up. i'd feel weird about calling a sifu by his first name, but its the sifu's choice.

[neit]

on another note if i personally was teaching martial arts i'd probably use my first name. but would be pleased if someone called me sifu.

[Samurai Jack]

Mat: always the voice of reason. ;)

My Japanese martial arts teachers were and are all known as "Sensei." If I happen to be at aseminar or somesuch, I'll address the teacher who is not my primary teacher by thier last name followed by Sensei, e.g. "Jones Sensei", "Hauk Sensei", "DiAnne Sensei", etc. I once had the embarrassing seminar experience of calling out "Sensei, I have a question.", and having four different teachers respond! It was then that I recieved the pointer, and it works well, while continuing to show respect.

I've trained under three CMA teachers as well, including one whom I consider a "big name", outright master. All of them insisted they be addressed by thier given names. It totally depends on the school, and by the way, "Sensei" and "Sifu" are both words that merely mean "teacher."

[rogue]

It's been years since I have trained under someone who used a title. I find coach is being used more and more. I tend to only use a title if I am studying under someone and only in front of the kids.

[hskwarrior]

in the traditional sense, it is only right and a sign of respect.

Personally, i felt until recently uncomfortable with the title of SIFU. but now my students have students and the stangest thing for me to hear was someone callin me sigung.

your sifu is neither your friend nor equal. SO i think, be proactive and call the person you chose to train under by their honorary title.

I see it as an american Mentality not to want to call someone their master, or sifu.
but as americans wishing to study asian martial arts, it is not our place to inject your own opinions you should go with the flow and keep that tradition alive.

One of those sifu's who didn't mind being called by his given name. was sifu troy dunwood. but since sifu dunwood and i are classmates i took it upon myself after hearing them call him troy instead of sifu, i corrected them and now the do.

thats my take on it.

tanks

hsk

[David Jamieson]

Sounds like someone's all caught up in the trappings of martial arts as opposed to having concern for the riggings and doings of it.

which has more value?

That's all you need to decide really.

[rogue]

I see it as an american Mentality not to want to call someone their master, or sifu.
but as americans wishing to study asian martial arts, it is not our place to inject your own opinions you should go with the flow and keep that tradition alive.

Sorry but that's BS to this American. How about someone making changes in order to teach an Asian art to Americans more efficiently? What's so great about any given tradition and do you keep it going for the sake of the tradition alone?

[hskwarrior]

David Jamieson,

you are the typical white guy in martial arts who wants to erase the asianness of asian martial arts.

you say im "caught up in all the trappings" of martial arts because i think you should call the person who you take as a sifu...."SIFU"?

Is you martial arts teacher Non chinese or CHinese?

if you would like to pay me a visit to see if im concerned with the workings of my choy lee fut you're welcome to take a class. If you can hang.

If your mentality is "i don't have to call the person im learning a martial art from "Sifu", then i think you shouldn't be practicing TCMA, and should possibly try hanging out with some asian cats.

I'll say this though, if you have ever called someone MR. or Mrs. SO and SO, but will not call your instructor by his time honored and earned title, then stop practicing martial arts and pick up European fighting methods. learn some wrestling or something.

in ending, im sure you'd change your mind in thinking I don't care for the workings of my choy lee fut in a few moments after meeting me.

TRy again, Son.


HSK

[ZhuiQuan]

What's a "christian" name?

[hskwarrior]

let me re-iterate this.

Mr. Jamieson (notice how i show respect by saying MR.), all throughout you schooling years i can say 100% you surely called your teachers in school Mr or Mrs so and so. or what about that elder neighbor MR. Jones, or Mrs Mcgillicutty down the block?

If you can show those people respect by calling the MR or Mrs, what is your problem with calling your martial arts instructor by his title whether it be sensei, shirfu, sifu, master, or even lets use my name like Sifu Frank.

Are you that superior that you shouldn't use that title? Is it because you are white, and will never bow down to a lowly asian? What is it?

You are the type of person who should stay away from martial arts. period.


Hsk

[hskwarrior]

grand poobut,

um, yeah. ok.

sure .

but if you cannot conceive the depth of Professor Lau Bun's knowledge on the usage of his gung fu, you will fail to realize he has been commended for adapting his gung fu to his new surroundings. Something a true master would do, in any part of the world. and if he doesn't then thats a dead master.

If you are an american white man, then you need to realize one thing buddy.

and i quote: "your whiteness does not make you superior in any concept of a "way".

If you wish to learn an asian martial art, then you need to leave your whiteness at the door. Asians as well as any non whites and including some who've opened their eyes- can see you would think you are superior in all ways in regards to little asian men.

If you don't want to follow the tradition of what is and has been long before you existed, who the EFF are you to come in and change it? Take that white sheet back to the country backwoods where it belongs. YEEEEHAAAWWWW!


Hsk

[hskwarrior]

oh yeah,

lau bun was chinese, and can do anything he wishes with his chinese gung fu.:p

[PangQuan]

My teacher likes to keep a distinct seperation while in training.

He is Sifu, he is not your friend. He is your kung fu master.

My master was raised and trained in temple life. He trains us as closely to the way he was trained while abiding by american laws. (he cant beat us)

It very much depends on the master. It depends on the way they were conditioned through training and the atmosphere they were trained in.

Many people will imulate or continue the tradition in which they were trained. Why? My master is an actual master. It worked when training him. It should work when training others.

people will do what they know works.

again its like apples and oranges. of course over the years he has made adaptions and changes to the way he conducts his school. He now lets people get away with much more than he used to.

we are products of our environments.

[syn]

Wow this has really escalated from a simple question, too a large debate. My opinion still stands, there is no set rule as to the traditions your school follows, it's always up to the sifu/sensei.

[PangQuan]

What's a "christian" name?

its a term sometimes used to refer to what some would call "your given name"

the name given to you at birth.

[rogue]

and i quote: "your whiteness does not make you superior in any concept of a "way".
If you wish to learn an asian martial art, then you need to leave your whiteness at the door. Asians as well as any non whites and including some who've opened their eyes- can see you would think you are superior in all ways in regards to little asian men.
Do you ever feel, well a little bit racist?

Sorry but I don't know who Professor Lau Bun is and I don't know what he's a professor of, so your argument means little to me. Sorry but that's the way it is. You can call yourself whatever you want but you'll still be wiping your butt like everybody else.

[hskwarrior]

Grand Poobutt, (not Syn--opps my bad.) sorry.
why do you resist calling him sifu?

and have you asked his opinion on what to do? What about some senior classmates, they should be there to help.

its interestng to wonder why you won't show him that respect?

the same question i can ask of you too.....

"how can you call someone MR or Mrs and not call your teacher by his earned title?


HSK

[rogue]

Because those things are all cultural conventions not dictates from God.

[syn]

I call my master by sifu and I bow when entering and leaving. I'm sayign though that it's not a rule to do so, it's up to your sifu and how he expects people to act at his school. There are soem schools that are more laid back where the sifu allows to be called by his last name, where as other schools it's a very big deal to do so. So I'm saying to the creater of this topic that he should adress his sifu by whatever the senior students adress him by.

[hskwarrior]

grand poobutt,

then you shouldn't be learning any thing, and most like not from a chinese.

yet you have no response to the mr or mrs thing either, i bet?!?

stay white.

Oh, only racist against white superior wannabe's. white folks are not superior in anything. and im caucasian as well. so i can talk.

if you are going to be superior at something, its going to be an individualistic thing.

I hope you don't learn the Junk masters will teach a person who won't recognize their position.


hsk----whiping my butt now.

[hskwarrior]

whats god got to do with gung fu?

[syn]

What? I'm saying I do adress my master as sifu, and show great respect to him because I attend a very traditional school, but that not all schools are this way. How am I being disrespectful to my sifu?

[hskwarrior]

sorry syn,

i noticed that i didn't direct the message and you might think i was pointing at you.

sorry.

hsk

[rogue]

grand poobutt,

then you shouldn't be learning any thing, and most like not from a chinese.

yet you have no response to the mr or mrs thing either, i bet?!?

stay white.

Oh, only racist against white superior wannabe's. white folks are not superior in anything. and im caucasian as well. so i can talk.

if you are going to be superior at something, its going to be an individualistic thing.

I hope you don't learn the Junk masters will teach a person who won't recognize their position.


hsk----whiping my butt now.

Because those things (Mr., Mrs., Ms., Esq, master, sensei, sifu, ect) are all cultural conventions, not dictates from God.
Is that clear enough for you or is your self loathing taking up too much of your mental bandwidth?

I hope I'm not learning the junk masters will teach a person who won't recognize their position. I didn't know titles made someone the shiznitz.


BTW Why are you whipping your butt? Is it a fetish or something?

[syn]

There's no reason to attack people, he wasn't being hostle.

[hskwarrior]

grand poobutt,


that's exactly what you are.

im done with your i wish i was superior Arse.



Toodles,

[rogue]

and the horse you rode in on.

[hskwarrior]

oh and im sure your grand poo-Butt arse is only playing the role, coz nuthin could be as dumb as yiew!!!!!:p


YEEEEHAAAAW!

[rogue]

I love being called dumb by someone who can't spell "because" or "you".

[hskwarrior]

yeeehaw,

i said i was wiping my butt becaue u said i would be like everybody else.

Heuh, heuh.......YEEEHAWWWW.....get along little doggy


Home home on the range......where ther dear and the antelope playeeeee..........:p

[syn]

/sarcasm

It's so nice to have an educated conversation

/endsarcasm

[Ou Ji]

/sarcasm

It's so nice to have an educated conversation

/endsarcasm

No, it's

sarcasm

/sarcasm

The slash (/) indicates end.

Now get it right next time or I'll insult your race even though I don't know what it is. :D

[syn]

Well that makes me a saaaad panda. :(

[hskwarrior]

i cud shpell anythang. Heuh Hueh!!

C u later!!!!!

[syn]

In my opinion this thread should be locked do to it's pointless spam and flaming.

[hskwarrior]

ou ji

shut ya arse up:p

[rogue]

Home home on the range......where ther dear and the antelope playeeeee..
It's spelled "deer" genius.

[PangQuan]

Ok.

this thread is pretty much dead.



I think the general advice here is to follow the flow and as they say "when in rome, do as the romans do"

i have the feeling that the thread creator is not even bothering to return to this thread.

[syn]

"When in rome fight like the chinese" I forget where I heard that.

[Ou Ji]

ou ji

shut ya arse up:p

What? You d a m n Californian. Quit trying to tell the rest of the country what to do.

You think California is so superior to other states. You're wrong. Take your California a$$ back to, back to, ah, California.

:D :D :D :D :D

[rogue]

You never know.

[PangQuan]

this thread needs to be closed

[rogue]

I thought hskwarrior did a great job of showing why titles mean little in the way of gaining respect. Hats off to you hskwarrior, you are the kung fu hero of the day!

[hskwarrior]

you are my hero buddy

[rogue]

You're the wind beneath my wings.

[hskwarrior]

you're the air that i breathe

[hskwarrior]

ou ji,

you know us crazy killa cali kidz........


and you go back to......go back to..:confused:

wherever you ..............oh never mind:mad:

[syn]

I visit SF every summer. I never viewed it as a rugged place.

[hskwarrior]

syn

what parts of SF are you familiar with?

I grew up at 16th and mission in the Mission district. a very dangerous place to live.


but there are other areas of SF that are real nice to hang out.


hsk

[hskwarrior]

syn

what parts of SF are you familiar with?

I grew up at 16th and mission in the Mission district. a very dangerous place to live.


but there are other areas of SF that are real nice to hang out.


hsk

[syn]

Well I've visited some poor places but usually I'll visit this real nice horse ranch owned by mom passed away grandma's friend. And see china town and drive around just viewing stuff.

Dallas is a pretty bad place considering we have the highest crime rate in America.

[syn]

I mean I have to say usually when your on a vacation you don't want to visit the dangerous and poor parts of that town.

[ZhuiQuan]

its a term sometimes used to refer to what some would call "your given name"

the name given to you at birth.



Oh, thank you PangQuan. I thought it would have been more literal. As in a name given to someone by a Christian priest or someone of the sort.

And in reference to all this talk about calling someone Sifu or not, if the teacher doesn't stress it, or doesn't care, then what's the big deal? I personally call all teachers and people of higher levels/status at my school by their proper Chinese title. But that's because my Sifu stresses it and feels it's an important part of keeping the authenticity of the system.

Wait... are we still talking about this?

[Beau Brummie]

Bloody Hell!!

No simple straightforward answer then!

I think I'll take him to one side and ask him personally. As I said it is never raised in the kwoon ( thank you ) so I imagine it's not a problem to him.

The interesting part to me is that calling a teacher Sifu means respect in some way. I was bought up to respect everybody until they prove unworthy of it. Titles don't really come into it.

I respect my Sifu to the max for 1/ Putting up with my feeble technique and 2/ Training my children.

He's very approachable though so I'll ask him directly.

Thanks for your time.

[Mr Punch]

Where are you training Beau?

[Mr Punch]

Master hskwarrior (Master being the correct term of address in England for an pre-pubescent snotty little twat) - Excellent lesson in respect. Well done. Have another twinkie.

[Beau Brummie]

Where are you training Beau?

Hi Mat

Birmingham UK mate - Mok Gar style.

[Ou Ji]

Seems like quite a bit of Mok Gar in the UK. Know where I can see some video?

[SimonM]

Well, just to insert some sense of reality into your nearly humourous argument HSK. Over here in China, my Chinese Gong Fu teacher would rather be called Laoshi (the same title I spent a month teaching my students to NOT call me in English class :D ) than Shifu.

In Canada I refered to my Shifu as Master Chau.

It really does depend on the preference of the teacher in question. One thing China has taught me is that there is absolutely no universal truth in China. Everything is relative. This includes what level of seperation and respect you show to your Gong Fu teacher.

[David Jamieson]

If someone is more concerned with protocol than the meat and potatoes of learning Kungfu, or they are more concerned with your shirt being tucked in as opposed to adjusting and correcting your horse stance, then there is a problem with priorities there that will effect to teh negative imo, the learning path of any of teh students who have to deal with that.

Now some people like to be called sifu and others deserve to be called sifu imo.

Surprisingly enough, many of the sifu and sensei I have trained with, who each have good caliber skills generally go by their first name.

With kids it's different. Kids still are formative and they need the lesson of "If you want to lead, you will need to learn how to follow first", whereas most adults already know this and if they don't, then they are a little dim to say the least. Even dimmer is the man who asserts his beliefs on another in exchange for something which shouldn't include such an imposition.

There are many who are very superficial with the trappings and look and feel of things, but when it gets right down to it and the kungfu is called on, it ain't there.

I find one's skill in Kungfu is directly converse to the amount of tall tales. lol

More stories of heroism and bravado generally = little skill
Less talk, more work generally= good skill.

It is all relative. Doesn't matter if you are whatever nationality or race. To achieve Kungfu, you simply have to do the work and that has little to do with dressing up the kwoon, wearing taichi uniforms or silks or having a bunch of accoutrements everywhere.

Respect is given where it is earned by teacher or student. The student who doesn't respect the teacher will leave and go elesewhere to find someone whocan teach them that they can respect. There must be a mutual ground for both th stand on. Putting someone above you in any sense is an error. yes a person can have more skill in one field and be a complete ignorant in another, that alone is enough to tell anyone that there is give and take in all things.

I don't take well to people who consider themselves better or more. They are not and their behaviours in this way are ridiculous and make them look ridiculous. And to those who kowtow without direct experience are even more foolish.

Men are men are men. Period. No one is more special than anyone else. Where he is strong you may fail, where you are strong, he may fail. That is human nature.

And in closing, an old addage "A wise man will learn more from a fool than a fool can ever hope to learn from a wise man".

Discipline comes from within you in kungfu, not because someone is imposing their will onto you. You will either continue or not.

[Wing Chun Dummy]

im in brum myself. i highly recommend wing chun kung fu with shaun rawcliffe (www.wingchun.co.uk). he used to be a body guard for jackie chan :cool:

what do you think about the kung fu that you're learning Beau Brummie? is it realistic in combat? is it authentic?

...about the sifu thing - if you're told to call him sifu then do so, otherwise dont. probably better to be real at the end of the day and just call eachother by our names. that's the way i prefer it. :D

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, I've trained with some of Shawn Rawcliffe's ex-students. Good hands.

Mok Gar in Brum? You with Master Chow (I think) from that Hornet MA shop round the back of the Chinese quarter? I've heard he's got some solid training going on there...

[neilhytholt]

Dealing with Chinese teachers is different than Japanese. You can easily get into trouble without knowing it.

Basically, the Japanese have a lot of formality and respect up front. Calling the teacher Sensei or Shidoshi or whatever, bowing, calling all the blackbelts sensei, etc. Not questioning the teacher, doing the techniques, giving respect to the teacher, the school, the martial art, the lineage, the senior students, etc. Not to get into trouble outside the school, not pick fights, etc.

This seems so different from the Chinese school where people call each other by first names, don't bow, don't wear Gis (sometimes they wear uniforms, etc.) Some Chinese schools are more strict.

But WAIT!!! Just because it seems like it's informal, doesn't mean it is. You are still expected to do all the not questioning the teacher, doing the techniques, giving respect to the teacher, the school, the martial art, the lineage, the senior students, etc.

You can easily get into trouble if you start questioning the teacher, or talking about other martial arts, or or saying you don't think the art is the best, etc. You have to deal with a lot of B.S., too, from the teacher and sometimes it's a good idea to give them gifts, etc. Not teach the their techniques to outside people without permission, and not get into trouble personally and all that.

So watch out. Some teachers are much less formal, but you can make a big mistake if you don't watch out.

[Wing Chun Dummy]

yep, if you get all the quiet b/s then it's just as bad as the louder version...

the best teachers are the ones who don't like it when students such up to them because it's foolish on the part of the student.