insomnia

[Hatsuyuki]

Does anyone know a good remedy for insomnia? I seem to be plagued by it as of late and my training is suffering quite a bit as a result.

Thanks in advance

[vikinggoddess]

There are a few different patterns for insomnia. Can you give some more details about what you are experiencing?

[paradoxbox]

I could use some help with this right now! I've been awake since even earlier than this time yesterday, about 36 hours, it's now 10:40AM. This is not the only time.

Simply unable to go to sleep. My body is tired as hell but even if I lie in bed and blank my mind out I can just lie there for hours and not fall asleep. Despite the fact the body suposedly gets rest during inactive periods like that, I still feel horrible and generally my sleep lasts about 3 or 4 hours and I wake up feeling poorly, with my senses in a hypersensitive state. Small noises seem very loud, just walking around is like a very weird experience in 3 dimensional movement, etc..

I've tried eating only light meals all day, then I tried a combo of a heavy lunch with a light dinner but still no joy, no (timely) sleep.

My training has virtually stopped until I can get a handle on this sleep problem. Starting to gain weight as I really don't have the energy to do much in this state. Even walking for more than a minute or two is a big chore and I can feel the burning in my muscles quickly on days like today, especially in the cold..

No real stressors that I know of. I'm pretty much stable, as far as I can see. So I don't know what the hell's going on. But this sleep thing has been a problem for years.

I've taken sleeping pills and they put me out, but I still don't feel rested like normal sleep should provide. And popping pills for sleep ain't all that cool so I'm not keen on making that a habit.

I do know that when I am getting normal sleep I almost always revert to being awake at night time, and sleeping in the day time. I don't know why that is, but it's been that way since I was around 10 or 15 years old. I have great difficulty adjusting the hours when I sleep- I.E. if I wake up at 6am I will not be able to sleep again before 8pm, and usually later, resulting in a drifting sleep schedule that eventually covers all 24 hours of the clock..heh.

I hope this is enough information. What's the solution?

[herb ox]

Arg. Insomnia sucks. You suffer from what is often referred to as "early termination" insomnia. There are many factors that influence when you wake up. For example, I find consuming alcohol at night before bed makes me wake up at around 4-5am and my head starts racing and I can't fall back asleep. This may be due to the depressant effects wearing off and leading to a relatively 'stimulated' state.

In TCM, insomnia can be caused by a lack of 'yin fluids', the essences necessary for keeping the system running 'cool'. THis in turn leads to 'heat' in the system, especially the heart, stomach and liver - all which can have a disrupting effect on sleep.

My recommendation (and only a recommendation...) would be to try eating 'cool' foods (i.e. veggies, some fruits, mung beans), broth type soups at least 3 hours before retiring. Also, given your shifted sleep cycle, melatonin supplements (1-3mg) work wonderfully for resetting your internal clock - take one pill (only!) about 1 hour before going to bed.

Insomnia sucks... unfortunately, it can be way more complicated than any solution available on a forum - i mean, entire institutes are dedicated to sleep disorders.

Maybe go see your local acupuncturist - herbs and needling helped me with my problem...

good luck
herb ox

[syn]

I've had insomnia to the point of hallucination.

It's better now because I stopped eating after 8, taking any form of mind enhancements (drugs, alchohol, caffeine) and getting a healthy regular sleep schedule.

[cam]

Do you snore? If you do it could be a sign of sleep apnia?. Sorry not to sure how it is spelled.
From what I know, snoring is an indicator for sleep apnia, as you sleep you are breathing with your mouth not your nose. It seems that breathind with your mouth tends to dehydrate your tongue which in turn swells sightly closing off your windpipe.
As your windpipe is closed off you don't breathe which in turn wakes you up,momentarily, you then fall back to sleep.
The problem is that you may wake up like this 20-30 times a night, this prevents you from acheiving deep sleep which in turn makes you feel tired, sluggish, irritiable, etc...... IN the long term you may suffer with heart problems... at least that's what my Doctor told me!

[GeneChing]

I confess, I kind of like sleep deprived hallucinations. As long as I'm not driving, handling heavy machinery or doing anything dangerous. I know, it's really bad for me, but I wrestle with insomina a lot too, so I got to take the perks where I can get them. Sleep dep hallucinations are fascinating - somewhere between dreamtime and awakening - too bad they can be so hard to remember.

But insomnia really sux when you have to perform the next day. If it's before midnight, I'll take melatonin. Sometimes, a nightcap works. Note that I now do more extensive cool-down qigong after practice, seated meditation and mudra work, and that helps a lot too. I almost never sit zazen before I'm trying to go to bed, mostly because I find it forms bad habits that catch up to me if I attempt prolonged sits later.

[TonyM.]

Fatigue induced hallucinations make drug induced hallucinations look like childs play.
Seriously. A good session of meditation (chan) in the full lotus will eventually calm me down enough to sleep.

[GeneChing]

I often do zazen after practice now but avoid it just before I go to sleep. It's a bad habit to sit then sleep because the biggest enemy of sitting practice is sleep, or cramps, or bugs, or gas. Ok, so there's a lot of enemies. :rolleyes: But seriously, usually by the time I realize I'm in an insomniac state, it's too late to meditate and go to sleep. My cool down meditation has to be long before I attempt to go to bed, never after. It's better to do meditation for waking up then going to sleep.

[Hatsuyuki]

Okay, first thing, I work night shift, starting around 16-16:30 getting home around 03:30. I've taken to doing my conditioning right before bed. I tend to fall asleep afterward fairly quickly, but I wake up feeling physically and mentally drained. My sleep seems to be plagued with tossing and turning, nightmares and those awful cold sweats, like your jerked out of sleep by something. My MD (as is typical in western med) gave me some sleeping pills and told me to see him in 3 weeks to see if it had "Gone away."

Hope this clarifies things.

[woliveri]

Do you have any TCM doctors in your area who also do herbs?

I found this is the best result. Cold night sweats indicate a problem you should have balanced.

[_William_]

I've heard that valerian root and melatonin(take melatonin for short periods only) are effective sleep remedies.

[woliveri]

From this page:

http://www.yinyanghouse.com/chinesetheory/theory/theory-yinyang.html


From a clinical perspective the theory of Yin and Yang is used to help determine the overriding factors involved in a particular condition. A condition is most likely to involve the Yin energies of the body if the problems are present or aggravated during the evening. Conditions such as insomnia and night sweats, for example, are often Yin related conditions. If the symptoms occur during the day, the condition is more likely to be related to the Yang energies of the body. Symptoms of Yang deficiency include fatique, weakness and lethargy.


See a TCM doc to fix you up.

[GeneChing]

Some people just aren't built for night shift (some people aren't built for day shift either). I use melatonin sometimes, if I'm going to bed before midnight, and when I travel. I've also used valerian root tea - Valium comes from valerian. Ambian is pretty good for a 'script'.

[TR Joiner]

Although I agree with your suggestion that insomnia can be caused by a deficiency of yin resulting in internal heat; however, I would like to add that it is often caused by what traditional Chinese medicine calls "restless Shen" which is another way of saying mental hyperactivity.

What Chinese medicine usually recommends is to treat this problem by subordinating the senses (which means) by being in quiet dark surroundings, and performing slow deep abdominal breathing, etc. If all of this sounds familiar it’s because these are the same techniques employed during meditation. Which is often helpful for those suffering from insomnia -- to control mental hyperactivity (or too much thinking).

Additionally the Chinese herb known as Suan Zao Ren is frequently used because of its ability to nourish the yin, quiet the senses and abate restlessness. Suan Zao Ren (botanical name: Ziziphus Spinosa) is one of the most frequently prescribed herbs in the Chinese herbal pharmacopoeia for insomnia. A secondary or residual benefit of this herb is its ability to prevent abnormal sweating, both spontaneous sweating and night sweats.

The only contraindication associated with this herb's use is to not use it if you are suffering from severe diarrhea or have a high fever.

If you'd like more information about herbs or herbal formulas used for insomnia, get back in touch with me, and I'll share additional information.


TR Joiner

[woliveri]

TR Joiner,

Yes, but he also has Night Sweats. If it was only Insomnia without any other underlying conditions I would not have suggested Yin deficiency. How does the Night Sweats play into your scenario?

[TR Joiner]

Greetings Woliveri:

I realize that he has night sweats, and in case you aren't aware of this fact spontaneous sweating and night sweats are typical symptoms of Qi and Yin deficiency ... more precisely, spontaneous sweating is normally associated with Qi deficiency while night sweats are a common symptom of Yin deficiency, to be exact Liver Yin deficiency.

Suan Zao Ren is used because it treats the Liver correcting the deficiency, while calming the mind and controlling mental restlessness (Restless Shen) as well as resolving night sweats.

As you are probably well aware, normally Chinese Herbology does not use a single herbal ingredient to treat most conditions, TCM prefers to use a combination of herbs, an exception being with tonic herbs such as Ginseng which is often used alone. Therefore, the most prudent course of action would be to use a formula that contains Suan Zao Ren as the "Emperor" herb (or main ingredients) along with several other herbs that act synergistically with the main ingredient to nourish the Liver Yin deficiency which is the underlying cause.

This is very important because it satisfies one of the guiding principles of TCM which is to correct the underlying or root cause of the problem rather than merely treating the symptom -- which in this case is insomnia.

I hope I have made myself clear, feel free to contact me again with any questions.

TR Joiner

[woliveri]

TR Joiner,

Thank you for your informed reply.

In Addition, nice web site. (www.seaofchi.com)

I would be interested in your Qigong background.

What type of qigong have you trained in?

[TR Joiner]

In answer to your question oliveri,
I've trained in Tien Tao Qi Gong and Yi chuan.

T.R.Joiner

www.seaofchi.com

[woliveri]

In answer to your question oliveri,
I've trained in Tien Tao Qi Gong and Yi chuan.

Interesting. I have not heard of Tian Tao (Heavenly Way?) Qigong before. May I ask what type of movements does the set contain? (Standing, Sitting, Moving, etc.)

And where did this Qigong Originate? (founder?)


Yi Chuan. I notice you are in Oakland. Have you trained with Fong Ha before?


Thank you,

[TR Joiner]

Greetings Woliveri,

You're right I am in Oakland however, I have never trained with the person that you mention. Tien Tao involves both standing and moving meditation, its origin is Chinese. If you are genuinely interested, you have my contact information. I won't get into its historywhich is rather lengthy because I'm not sure that this forum is the proper place. I'm assuming that we're pretty much expected to stick to the point?

TR Joiner

www.seaofchi.com

[herb ox]

T R Joiner said:

"...night sweats are a common symptom of Yin deficiency, to be exact Liver Yin deficiency...

"Therefore, the most prudent course of action would be to use a formula that contains Suan Zao Ren as the "Emperor" herb (or main ingredients) along with several other herbs that act synergistically with the main ingredient to nourish the Liver Yin deficiency which is the underlying cause."

Honorable Sir, while I agree with your use of SZR as the emperor herb in the formula, it is not for the same reasons you have stated. My understanding is the night sweats are more typical of Kidney Yin deficiency (aka steaming bones or rob sweating) - in my studies thus far, I have not seen night sweats associated with Liver Yin deficiency. However, the sour aspect of SZR does effectively "retain the qi to stop sweating". Furthermore, it also moistens and calms the liver to nourish yin, ultimately quenching the empty heat that may be causing insomnia.

If I am missing something regarding the Liver Yin Xu night sweats, please correct me :)

respectfully,

herb ox

[TR Joiner]

You didn't miss a thing herbox, you're right in regards to T.C.M. attributing night sweats to "steaming bone" which is as you stated, associated with def. Kidney yin. It appears I have unintentionally mis-spoken! Although the rising heat associated with Liv. yin def. could possibly cause irritability along with the restlessness and shen related stuff associated with the Heart that is often seen in insomnia, as you have pointed out, according to T.C.M. it is the Ki. def rather than the Liv. def. that is the cause of the night sweating. As I sit here slowly wiping the egg from my face, I am reviewing some of the traditional formulas for treating night sweats and notice that quite often they contain ingredients for nourishing both Ki. and Liv. yin def. which in spite of my error regarding T.C.M. theory makes me somewhat relieved by the fact that my reccomendation of Suan Zao Ren as the emperor in a formula supported by herbs such as Shan Zhu Yu, Mu Li, and Wu Wei Zi would likely have been of benefit none the less.

T.R. Joiner

www.seaofchi.com

[Cheng oi]

I have tried everything - nothing works for me but cannabis