View Full Version : Bagua in ufc

04-01-2001, 09:02 PM
hi there

Do you people sometime wonder why there is no Bagua or other internal fighter in UFC? What is your opinion on this?
Take care

04-01-2001, 09:08 PM
There was a paqua guy in one of the UFC's. He got knocked out in about 2 seconds.
What was funny about that is that he had been saying that the UFC wouldn't let him compete because his paqua was 'too deadly'. LOL !!!

04-01-2001, 09:20 PM
There are internal stylists competing quite successfully in full contact tournaments.

The problem is alot of people think that UFC is the only, or perhaps the most important, full contact event. It's not.

04-01-2001, 09:33 PM

I'm interested in knowing what tournaments that have internalist. Are these hsing-i, pa kua, mantis fighters?

04-01-2001, 10:21 PM
Razak - for example, check out Mike Patterson's site at www.hsing-i.com (http://www.hsing-i.com)

His fighters (mostly xingyi, but some with bagua and taiji as well) have fared well against a wide variety of opponents. He's got some of the official stats up on his page.

04-01-2001, 11:12 PM
I saw the Bagua guy in the UFC referenced above...I don't do Bagua, so I will refrain from commenting on his skill, but will say that he weighed in at about 400 lbs (no kidding).
I find it hard to believe that someone so large and out of shape could be very adept at an art which places a great deal of emphasis on deft footwork...I could be wrong...

04-01-2001, 11:54 PM
Hi there
thank you for poitive response.lolz..i was pretty scared that one of you people might get offended or something:P anyway i doubt if Mister Mike
Patterson's fighters ever competed against grapplers/wresters. Ermmm have you people ever seen internal guys in no weight division tournament?
take care :rolleyes:

Kempo Guy
04-02-2001, 12:11 AM
You may want to speak with Tim Cartmell of the Shen Wu academy. He is a Neijia adept as well as a BJJ practitioner. As far as I know he has successfully competed in BJJ type tournaments using many techniques from Ba Gua etc.
You can check out his website at www.shenwu.com (http://www.shenwu.com)


04-02-2001, 12:12 AM
I'm not a big fan of UFC or WWF sanctioned events but bagua guys fight in tournaments. I'm wondering about the direction of your questions. When you say you doubt Mike Pattersons guys ever compete against wrestlers and grapplers I wonder if you even know what bagua is? Says in your profile you have been learning bagua for three years now. Have you ever learned any applications from your bagua teacher? Have you ever sparred in your class? My feeling about your original question is that you will probably never see any "real" bagua in UFC tournaments.

04-02-2001, 12:58 AM
heh heh...nope i did not learn any applications from my teacher! lolz since i'm now concentrating on internal energy development(oh ..and school works too!). I do only some single movement drills, walking the circle, shaking the pole, and standing meditations. i'm sorry if i lead you to the wrong way. i admit that sometime i doubt of internal style since i've never seen any internal stylists fight for real( well except chan hak fu and wu gong yee..lolz!). anyway is it true that BJJ is more internal and more sophisticated than Hsing-i ground fighting skill? (from Tim Cartmel himself..folks)
Take care


04-02-2001, 01:04 AM
Dear count
yes i do some sparrings before but not in bagua
class tho since i'm the only student of my teacher..lolz...i used to sparred a lot in Bangkok but did not go to the ground or anything like that.
take care :rolleyes:

04-02-2001, 01:10 AM
Pretty much what I figured. Yes, it is true and often overlooked that wrestling including BJJ is an internal art. But look to your own art and you will find the answers you seek. The greatest bagua men were wrestlers. I would recommend a teacher that teaches applications as well as basic exercises. You can't learn to fight with bagua unless you fight with bagua but you might be surprised what you already know.

04-02-2001, 05:20 PM
i watched the tape last night..man...that fat bub lasted 4 like ten secs...poor daddi :(

04-02-2001, 05:56 PM
He got dropped by a jab. :(

"The Tao is an uncarved block of wood in which all shapes are possible."

04-02-2001, 06:15 PM
I must say that I wanted to do a post like this but I know when I speak I bring controversy... ;)

I wonder why we dont see pa kua chang fighters? Is it because we are limited in these events or could it be that we have the skills to fight in these tournaments?

What is the right question and answer?

Ghost Dog
04-02-2001, 06:24 PM
Sorry guys, I just want to exhibit my ignorance here.
Is UFC Ultimate Fighting Championships? Is it some American thing or what? Everyone seems to slam all these ufc and mma videos (where do you get them? very curious) and yet still watch them. Can you get those videos in the UK or Ireland?
Again, sorry that I don't know what ufc is. Please don't hit me.

04-02-2001, 06:30 PM
It comes down to politics and the governing bodies for the various organizations. You can find Bagua in tournaments but you will not find it in the UFC.
BTW, just an observation but I have seen maybe 100's of bagua practitioners and I have NEVER seen a fat one. The UFC have only allowed people say they represent CMA to gain dominance to their stars. If there are any they have had little to no experience in traditional chinese martial arts and also crosstrain in many other styles. The real NHB was in Asia in the past where fighters wore no equipment and fought until one could not fight any more. No tapping out in these battles.

04-02-2001, 06:45 PM
As I heard before the UFC has chosen fighters which gives on an advantage over the other...(it thats true) but what tournaments can you name that there have been pa kua fighters? I'd like to know...

04-02-2001, 07:19 PM
I know of a couple annual events in the US that are in San Francisco and in Ohio. I'm sure there are many others. I will e-mail you information after class this weekend. You can check the back of KungFu Magazine for events and results and probably any other publication invovling martial arts. I recently saw a great video where a bagua style fighter convincingly beat a pro from the Chinese San Shou team. ;)

BTW, I find your controversial posts quite refreshing as they come from an informed source unlike some of the others. ΓΌ

04-02-2001, 07:35 PM
Gark!! bwahahhaha!!..ghost dog..u r so cute..heh heh..just kidding..ermm well u can find the tapes in almost every video stores here..i dunno about in england tho..well you should ask them people in the stores ...or purchase them via internet.
Take care :p

04-02-2001, 07:38 PM
Hi there
where could i get the tape you mentioned?..i'm going back home this summer to see my teahcer...really want to get the tape for him.
take care ;)

04-02-2001, 07:46 PM
Count is right..one time i saw two burmese
fighters fought muay thai kickboxer ...and there are tons of these stuff in thailand...like chinese kung fu vs muaythai etc.....there are some area in Bkk where you could not open other martial arts school or else these muaythai people will just bust it up..

Take care ;)

04-02-2001, 07:50 PM
:D Kind of an inside joke for razak since it was his teacher I was refering to. You can find this and many others at blacktaoist.com (http://blacktaoist.com/Intropage.html)

Water Dragon
04-02-2001, 08:04 PM
Razak, I personally feel it is that we are afraid of losing. People build up this wall of protection based on what their art supposedly does. Then, when it is time to prove it, they lose. Instead of looking at it from the point of a learning experience, they feel they have failed.

That is why you hear so many people saying that their techniques are too deadly or that tournaments will "dilute" their arts. My question is how that can be? Especially when the internal arts deal with energy rather than technique.

Perhaps that those who are afraid of an azz whooping should realize that they don't have what it takes to be a fighter. Or maybe they should just swallow their pride and learn from the experience.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

Water Dragon
04-02-2001, 08:06 PM
OOPS!!! The above post is in reference to the last post on page one. Posted by Razak.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

04-02-2001, 08:45 PM
Razak - taiwan's own full contact venue, koushou, sees bagua fighters that do quite well.

04-02-2001, 09:42 PM
His name is Thomas Rameiraz, he lives in Puetro Rico now. He was simply way to fat and unhealthy to fight in the ring, it wasn't until he bad mouthed fight promoters and other fighters that they let him fight in the UFC, where he fought Dan/Don Fry and lasted all a humiliating 10 secounds.
From what I was told he was somewhat out of breath from just walking down to the octagon to fight..... I would guess he didn't do much cicrle walking at all, which would make sense, because 1 month of Bagua practice through a community education course probably doesn't get one ready for actual fighting...hmmmmm

04-02-2001, 09:53 PM
>>I find it hard to believe that someone so large and out of shape could be very adept at an art which places a great deal of emphasis on deft footwork...I could be wrong... <<

There has been a number of very large and thick men that have developed a tremendous amount of skill in Baguazhang(Wang Shu Jin for an example), in some ways it almost helps to be somewhat robust in body shape, however Yin Fu being extremely thin and of awesome skill would prove its in no way a necessity.

Mr. Nemo
04-02-2001, 10:42 PM
I think Water Dragon is right. We won't fight because we're afraid we'll lose, and people like Rolls might be proven right.

Have confidence in your art!

I have very vague plans of someday taking my internal kung fu to NHB/Vale Tudo and winning. I barely started a year ago, so it might be a little premature just yet, but mark my words...

Water Dragon
04-02-2001, 10:56 PM
I'm with ya El Nemo. I'm planning to fight again at age 30. I'm 27 now. I got straight walloped by a boxer last time. But, I took my beating like a man, learned more in those 3 minutes than I ever did in class, AND the boxer left with a healthy respect for Taiji as a fighting art.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

04-03-2001, 07:46 AM
How is wrestling and BJJ an internal art?

04-03-2001, 04:01 PM
All arts are internal at high levels. Some more than others. In wrestling, your whole body is the weapon as opposed to boxing, where you are just hitting hard with your hands. Not to say there are not internal aspects of boxing (there are!). Wrestling and BJJ use the same feeling energy you should be learning in tai chi chuan! You have to feel where your opponents energy is going and redirect it to your advantage. That's internal! Wrestling is an art where you use your opponents momentum to get maximum power. Think about the requirements to grappling and throwing. Proper alignment, timing, sensitivity, speed, positioning will overcome brute force. That's internal! Maybe the conditioning and training isn't as internally focused as tai chi chuan but the results and the fighting philosophy are the same. Do you not think tai chi chuan or baguazhang are internal? Baguazhang is about 75 percent (approximation) wrestling and grappling! I think the problem is most people have the misconception that internal arts mean soft when in reality they are the hardest hitting most brutal fighting styles.

Back to the topic. Forget about the UFC and their silly show. I would love to see an olympic boxer fight an olympic wrestler. I would rather see a black belt in aikido fight the equivalent in baguazhang. Give me copoiera against savat any day. Sambo vs shuai chaio. Kali vs Arnis. Bando against Muay Thai. Judo against Karate. I prefer arts that are more complete than ones that are overly simplified and specialized in one area. I prefer competitions that are tests of skill rather than ones that are attempts to make money or prove dominance over world markets. The ufc is not about martial arts at all. It is about entertainment. Want proof? Here is a letter from the promoters when some REAL martial artist tried to get in.



04-03-2001, 04:34 PM
After reading the post I see that most people agree the it is fear that people have of losing. This fear keeps us from fighting in tournaments. Now is this fear the fear of lack of confidence? Is it because of our sifu's not teaching us how to control our fear? What is it? I mean Pa kua is a deadly art and because of our understanding of it's nature we should be "fearless". I myself when in tournaments - I am learning how to control that fear. Me personally - my fear has not been my competitor but more of me losing ... because when fighting if you are not focus you might feel like you are doing a show for everyone. (in some cases you are)... Even I'm learning internals from great teachers and friends - I don't follow everything...just because someone says this works I question it to see if it's true... so I use my brian over my eyes

I thank everyone for their opinion on this topic...you guys know me by now - I love to bring topics that will cause issues to be addressed.