Process Change Request: Deletion of Threads [Archive]

01-07-2006, 07:29 AM

Change Request:

On behalf of myself and fellow forum members, I request that forum participants avoid deleting threads they have started after other members of the forum have invest in discussions there.

If you need to delete the initial post of a thread you started, please use the edit feature to remove the text of your own message, rather than deleting the entire thread and everyone else's contribution to it.

Basis for Request:

There has been an increasing pattern of thread deletions by forum members during the past year. I grant that the owner of any post has a right to remove their own material at their discretion. However, I contend that material contributed by other individuals should not be removed other than by the forum moderators.

Whether intended or not, removal of others' material by virtue of thread deletion implies a disrespect for the contributions of others. The behavioral reinforcement of deleting or disrespecting others' contributions will discourage participation of other forum members regardless of their viewpoint or value of their contribution on issues. ( E.g., Who wants to waste time contributing when their writing is just going to be randomly deleted anyway, or possibly never seen at all?)

Removal of others' material constitutes not only a disrespect for the material itself, but disrespect for the thought and time investment of the writer(s), as well as the value of the discussion to others, readers and writers alike.

The ability for a thread starter to delete a whole thread may be a technical flaw in the system. Therefore I will also submit a change request to the forum management in hopes they can remedy the problem.

Last and possibly least, the deletion of threads is highly annoying.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

sihing

01-07-2006, 07:42 AM

I second this. Just because someone thinks the disscussion is old hat, and a rehash by people that no nothing, means only arrogance and a superiority complex by that particular person if you ask me. As long as the discussion is civil and respecting of other forum members, then nothing should ever be deleted...

James

reneritchie

01-07-2006, 07:46 AM

Like bell-bottoms, old threads periodically come back to haunt us. And sometimes, just sometimes, tiny little steps of progress are made.

Ernie

01-07-2006, 08:13 AM

you guys bust me up thanks for the morning laugh :D
if you had been this entertaining i would never have killed the thread !

ps maybe if people had some thing new to offer instead of the same ''dog chasing it's tail '' that can be found on any number of threads on the forum ,'' then there would not be a new habit of people killing off what they start ;) [which is a good trend in my book ]

the words come on guys get a life keep coming to mind haha !

the only new thing that came from that thread was the other thread you started KJ
at least that was a breath of fresh air
better to save server space then contribute to more of the yada yada yada !

now i must put on my arrogance and superiority suit and kick puppies :rolleyes:

Ultimatewingchun

01-07-2006, 08:32 AM

Ernie

01-07-2006, 08:47 AM

Vic
trust with in 24 hours you and jim will find a new battle ground , ghost will ..... chime .... in ... with... Mr x thank you for your view ... but.. James will tell us how wing chun will cure cancer and his teacher learned to perform brain surgery in 2 weeks while walking on water during a level 10 test ,,,,, chi sau king will tell you all to go to hell and how your all wrong kicking ass with his or her steel toe boots , KJ will come in with the stern motherly hand ! ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and all will be right in the KFO universe once again ;)

chisauking

01-07-2006, 08:53 AM

Quote: chi sau king will tell you all to go to hell and how your all wrong kicking ass with his or her steel toe boots

Thanks for the complimate Ernie.....You spoilt brat! LOL V. V. L

from: sik siu siu ban doy bil

sihing

01-07-2006, 08:54 AM

As much as I would have liked to continue with that thread - and in particular the discussion I was having with Jim Roselando (wherein I was just starting to put the screws to Jim's faulty logic about simplicity vs. complexity :D )...

nonetheless, I have to respect Ernie's right to delete the thread if he so desires.

He started it - he had a right to end it. ;)

My two cents!

Of course he has the right, he started it, he can end it. But the discussion was a interesting one to some of us, and maybe he could have stated that we all start another thread. But to delete it because he thought we all do not know what we are talking about due to a lack of experience, well that makes me think someone has all the answers, and that the rest of us better catch up or else the infamous experienced streetfighter will get us all, lol. If someone does not like what is being said then either ignore the thread, or put in your 2 cents and contribute to it. This is a forum for all of us to contribute to in a equal way.

James

sihing

01-07-2006, 08:56 AM

Ernie

01-07-2006, 09:00 AM

Of course he has the right, he started it, he can end it. But the discussion was a interesting one to some of us, and maybe he could have stated that we all start another thread. But to delete it because he thought we all do not know what we are talking about due to a lack of experience, well that makes me think someone has all the answers, and that the rest of us better catch up or else the infamous experienced streetfighter will get us all, lol. If someone does not like what is being said then either ignore the thread, or put in your 2 cents and contribute to it. This is a forum for all of us to contribute to in a equal way.

James

james you rock ha ha
better look over your shoulder and check in the closet under the bed , i might be in the back seat of your car with duck tape stretched out ,,,,,,,, :eek:

but you have nothing to fear ,,,,,, you have passed your test got your belt and can handle any problem ,,,,,,

as you have stated time and time again your kwoon has it all covered man ! :D

ghostofwingchun

01-07-2006, 09:05 AM

sihing

01-07-2006, 09:59 AM

I am finding it interesting . . . that if someone not like way thread is going . . . they can delete it . . . so what if things are rehashed . . . it is often good to reexamine things from time to time . . . I am thinking that deleting discussion that has taken place should be action of last resort . . . not arbitrary power . . . oh well.

Thanks,

Ghost

Ghost, you should search on peoples profiles and review some of the posts they have given (it gives you that option). Some on here have been posting for a few years and you get to learn lots about them in the process. I've done that a few times when things got boring and I found it interesting and informative regard what people's views are.

James

sihing

01-07-2006, 10:02 AM

james you rock ha ha
better look over your shoulder and check in the closet under the bed , i might be in the back seat of your car with duck tape stretched out ,,,,,,,, :eek:

but you have nothing to fear ,,,,,, you have passed your test got your belt and can handle any problem ,,,,,,

as you have stated time and time again your kwoon has it all covered man ! :D

Well I was watching "SAW" last night alone for the first time, and I did look under the bed before I feel asleep just to double check, LOL....

James

KPM

01-07-2006, 12:20 PM

As much as I would have liked to continue with that thread - and in particular the discussion I was having with Jim Roselando (wherein I was just starting to put the screws to Jim's faulty logic about simplicity vs. complexity :D )...

nonetheless, I have to respect Ernie's right to delete the thread if he so desires.

He started it - he had a right to end it. ;)

My two cents!

I have to respectfully disagree. Just because someone started a thread doesn't mean that they own it. Discussions often go in different directions than the original post when others get involved. Should the person that made the original post have the right to just arbitrarily negate any other discussion that may be going on within the thread between other individuals just because he doesn't like it or is bored with it? Ernie may find all of this amusing, but it is the same as just suddenly blowing someone off in a face to face conversation because you don't like what they have to say. In most social circles that would be considered very rude. You may bow out of the continuing conversation if you don't like where its going, but why should you have the right to tell everyone else to shut up? Again, I consider that somewhat rude. :mad:

Keith

Ernie

01-07-2006, 01:59 PM

KPM -Ernie may find all of this amusing

yes i do :D

KPM-I consider that somewhat rude

thank you for your oppinion hope you feel better now ;)

Sihing73

01-07-2006, 04:29 PM

Hello,

I will not beat this into the ground but I believe Kathy Jo raises a valid point. I believe I have explained myself elsewhere so will not belabor the point here.

Remember this is a public forum for the enjoyment and discussion of ALL members. Just because something does not go a particular way does not mean it is not valid or we have a right to remove it.

I have several children and I have specific hopes for each of them. Could you imagine if I were able to delete them if they did not turn out the way I would like? While a tempting thought at times, we must each realize that once we put something into action we can no longer always control the outcome.

Ernie

01-07-2006, 05:12 PM

[[Could you imagine if I were able to delete them if they did not turn out the way I would like? ]]

oh what a wonderful world it could be !
sorry couldn't help myself :D

I get it you people are freaks hahaha

KPM

01-07-2006, 08:18 PM

KPM -Ernie may find all of this amusing

yes i do :D

KPM-I consider that somewhat rude

thank you for your oppinion hope you feel better now ;)

Ernie, you may find this amusing as well, but you sure are coming across as an arrogant *******. What if I and other members of the forum ventured to southern California to pay you a visit and you took us all out for drinks and some conversation. Let's say the evening started out with you inviting everyone to sit down to your table and you struck up a topic of discussion. But then let's say that as the evening went on you didn't like what we were talking about and got bored with it. But rather than just getting up and walking off to do something else and allow us to go on discussing things, you tells us all to "shuck the F... up!" and stopped the conversation cold. Now would you do something like that to everyone.....face to face? I'll bet you wouldn't! Why is behavior that would be considered rude and inappropriate in a face to face situation OK in a forum situation? Rather than just laugh it off, tell us we all have no life, and make sarcastic remarks....how about being a little humble and offering an apology? :eek:

Keith

Ultimatewingchun

01-08-2006, 12:15 AM

Jeez, Ernie...you sure pi55ed off a lot of people!!! :)

But once again I've got to take Ernie's side on this.

There's SO MUCH bull5hit that tries to pass itself off as knowledge around here...and yes...it has to do with NOT ENOUGH REAL SPARRING ...and yes, it has to do with people pooh-poohing the MMA approach - because they ERRONEOUSLY think that wing chun has all the answers...

so the man had enough and decided to delete a thread that was headed down the bull5hit road. :eek:

You see, we have a real crisis around here...some of the hardliner wing chun-has-all-the-answers people have already stopped posting - and some of the more progressive/realistic minded ones (like Ernie) are thinking about doing the same.

There are already two people whose posts are so far away from reality that I put them on my ignore list (just using myself as an example)...and if I feel as though I might continue to add to the list - I might get to the same point.

It's an inevitable battle, imo...

The world of nhb, MMA (and Bruce Lee's JKD before it) - have opened up too many eyes - and there's no turning back for those people.

But those people are still wing chun based - hence no desire (yet) not to post anymore on this forum and just spend their time on other forums.

Which means....the battle will continue. :cool:

Ernie

01-08-2006, 01:30 AM

Ernie, you may find this amusing as well, but you sure are coming across as an arrogant *******. What if I and other members of the forum ventured to southern California to pay you a visit and you took us all out for drinks and some conversation. Let's say the evening started out with you inviting everyone to sit down to your table and you struck up a topic of discussion. But then let's say that as the evening went on you didn't like what we were talking about and got bored with it. But rather than just getting up and walking off to do something else and allow us to go on discussing things, you tells us all to "shuck the F... up!" and stopped the conversation cold. Now would you do something like that to everyone.....face to face? I'll bet you wouldn't! Why is behavior that would be considered rude and inappropriate in a face to face situation OK in a forum situation? Rather than just laugh it off, tell us we all have no life, and make sarcastic remarks....how about being a little humble and offering an apology? :eek:

Keith

those who know me , know me ;)
it's a thread , not a dinner , and yes i still find this very amusing! so please continue :rolleyes:

KPM

01-08-2006, 05:52 AM

Hey Victor!

There's SO MUCH bull5hit that tries to pass itself off as knowledge around here...and yes...it has to do with NOT ENOUGH REAL SPARRING ...and yes, it has to do with people pooh-poohing the MMA approach - because they ERRONEOUSLY think that wing chun has all the answers...

---I'm not one of those. I don't think that WCK has all the answers. I admire the MMA approach. I try to do as much real sparring as I can. I even had minimal participation on Ernie's thread. Its just the prinicipal of it. You accept that Ernie can just shut down a discussion in the forum because he wants to. Would you accept Ernie walking up to you face to face in the gym and telling you to "shut the F.... up!"???? I'll ask again....why is behavior that would be considered rude and inappropriate in a face to face situation considered OK in the forum?

so the man had enough and decided to delete a thread that was headed down the bull5hit road. :eek:

---If he had enough he could just stop reading that thread. Maybe the bull5hit would have taken an interesting sidestreet? Who knows? :D

You see, we have a real crisis around here...some of the hardliner wing chun-has-all-the-answers people have already stopped posting - and some of the more progressive/realistic minded ones (like Ernie) are thinking about doing the same.

---I agree that that's a problem. But you think having threads arbitrarily deleted that people are participating on is going to ENCOURAGE them to keep posting? Do you want me to stop posting? Because I gotta tell ya.....having a thread that I was following deleted for no obvious reason, then having the guy that deleted it tell me I'm a freak and have no life because it ticked me off.....that sure isn't encouraging me to spend my time here! :rolleyes:

Hey Ernie

those who know me , know me
it's a thread , not a dinner , and yes i still find this very amusing! so please continue

---So you don't consider the people here your friends?...or to be worthy of some basic respect? You're saying you present a different face here and act differently than you do with people you know personally. That's a shame. :(

Keith

01-08-2006, 08:01 AM

Just to be clear, Ernie is not the only forum member to delete vested threads. While his thread happened to be the most recent victim, my "process change request" was intended more broadly, and not specifically at him. The dilemma engaged my attention awhile back when another of our members began to routinely post a topic or question, delete the thread when the responses didn't suit him, then re-post the exact same thread, repeating the cycle multiple times. There are ways to recoup from a thread that didn't go according to "plan" other than to delete others' work.

I get it you people are freaks hahaha

I can't argue with you there, Ernie. :eek: When the shoe fits. :D:D

Also, if it's all the same and you don't mind, I'd settle for "big sisterly" over "motherly hand," LOL. I think Dave has the parental angle adequately covered. :)

[Kudos and thanks on a good job and even hand as usual, Dave.]

Regards,
- kj

Ernie

01-08-2006, 08:35 AM

KJ - I understand why you started this thread and that it was a issue that has been on going , and I really don't mind being the target [even though this is the first thread I ever deleted !] honestly I am really enjoying being the target :D

it is amazing me how emotionally connected people are to there digital [non realistic bubble]
you know were I see a spark I will pour gas ;)
the emotional reaction seems to be greater in those that lack hands on experience in subjects discussed so they ''speculate ''
and thus what they speculate becomes there truth since they do not go out and test there idea in the real world .
if they did and it then it would become fact based on personal experience [not hand me down experience ] and no matter what any one said they would in there hearts ''know'' there truth
but since they just speculate , and can not personally prove what there talking about with any level of consistency , there world of digital speculation and assumption becomes a very important emotional object ,,,,,, this can not be mentally healthy !
these poor soul probably spend hours though out there day/week thinking about there forum arguments
wasting valuable time that should be spent living ! or at the very least testing there idea's

if your stuck at work with nothing to do and you kill some time on a forum that's one thing but when you get upset about it ,,,, time for an intervention :D

KPM- go out side get some air you will feel better , turn off the PC ;)

Vic- sorry your in the cross hairs , but i know you like that :D

next !

Ultimatewingchun

01-08-2006, 10:23 AM

sihing

01-08-2006, 11:05 AM

Keith (KPM):

I know that you're not one of the wing chun hardliners - and that's all to your credit. And yes, I see your point about why the deletion upset you...as you were finding the thread interesting. (I did too).

But my position is that a guy like Ernie needs to be cut some slack; as he said, he's never deleted a thread before. Ernie has made many excellent contributions to this forum.

And he's getting really tired of the non-realism that so many people still adhere to.

Would you rather see him leave? Or would you rather see him occasionally vent some anger and frustration but still stick around?

That's my real point.

Furthermore, knowing Ernie...don't be surprised if he sends you a pm offering you (personally) an olive branch.

I tried to stay out of this but....

Firstly, I like Ernie too, although we may or may not be on opposite sides of the fence. His training practices seem to be of a more realistic nature, in other words not pure WC, even though he has knowledge of a pure WC system. I on the other hand believe in the effectiveness of the pure art. Problem is not all of us do the same things, the same ways or even understand the Art the same way. So unless ALL OF US meet up someday in a big room and REALLY find out how skilled each one of us is, assumptions can go out the window. Saying that, I do know of some on here, what their skills are as I have seen them personally, during a testing time. If there is anytime to determine one's skills, you would think it would be during a test.

Now my problem with the post above by Victor is that he is putting Ernie up on a pedestal, like some idol, bigger and better than some others because of this or that way of training. This is BS IMO. Yeah, some of us may be better fighters than others, I know I am not a fighter. This is something more psychological, rather than physical, as there are killers out there that like to fight. I for one do not like to fight, but that doesn't mean I CAN'T FIGHT. Put anyone with decent skills in WC, and force them into a corner, and it will come out. Competitions like MMA events sometimes do not bring this out for everyone. For me I know it wouldn't, as I have no reason to hurt another for the reason of Ego or proving something to myself. Another problem with the post is that Victor can't see the arrogance unfortunately broadcast through some of Ernie's comments. This is because Victor is arrogant at times also. Always looking to start an argument if things are not his way, each and every time I have had a war of words with him it is always in defense of something stupid said previous. My whole introduction to this forum was something stupid he said regarding my Sifu. LOL, coming from him, I had to say something....

We are here to contribute/discuss/share/analyze, etc.. I see things here all the time that I don't agree with, but I don't go on here all the time telling people you know nothing and get real and all that crap, attacking the individual(people may say they aren't doing that but it is how the person receiveing the attack feels)... If it was really that important to me what another's skills were from this forum, I would buy a plane ticket to their city, introduce myself to them and then attack. A simple way to find out.

James

Ernie

01-08-2006, 11:39 AM

Vic - on the real , I'm was not venting or upset in any way when I deleted the thread [you know me I would say it if I was :D ]
just felt responsible for a thread I started that turned into the some old dog chasing it's tail, battle of the keyboard warrior ego's , that has been the theme here for that last few years .
and the [your either part of the problem or part of the solution ] mindset kicked in
I chose my own solution , thought nothing of it at the time .
now I'm fully enjoying the after effects , the free wanabe dr. Phil lessons , the ''fangs '' be it puppy teeth coming out , the cry cry , I'm telling dad on you , you better say sorry cry cry crap .

it's some of the funniest and best reading I have had in ages , and some try and rationalize it just amazes me ,,,, it's great !

no olive branches here buddy I'm loving this :D

it really gives you insight on how people ''deal'' with things , myself included of course , but I don't hide behind 100 word essays on etiquette or fake scenario's as many seem to have a strange need to do

so please let [ The Deconstruction of Ernie continue ] !

AmanuJRY

01-08-2006, 11:59 AM

It's interesting how the action of deleting the thread has brought on what all of you REALLY want to say. It may sound like petty bickering about each other, but to me that's better than hiding that animosity behind the 'same old bull5hit'.

Let it all out...then maybe we can get to some important stuff.

planetwc

01-08-2006, 01:09 PM

lawrenceofidaho

01-08-2006, 01:13 PM

We are here to contribute/discuss/share/analyze, etc.. I see things here all the time that I don't agree with, but I don't go on here all the time telling people you know nothing and get real and all that crap, attacking the individual(people may say they aren't doing that but it is how the person receiveing the attack feels)... If it was really that important to me what another's skills were from this forum, I would buy a plane ticket to their city, introduce myself to them and then attack. A simple way to find out.
Not a bad idea........ (At least do it politely, though.) :)

Most of the debates that drag on here for days would be over in minutes if we were exchanging ideas together in the kwoon. There's nothing like experiencing something first hand from someone that has reality-based knowledge of what they're talking about.

Ernie

01-08-2006, 01:14 PM

OMG!!!

Ernie u da man!
Seems like a lot of what you are saying is just whooshing over peoples heads.

This thread is funnier than h@ll. I'll drop you a private email on some other topics shortly.

Deconstrucing ernie. ROTFL.
Often people can not see past there own reflection in the monitor ;)

Quote '' hello mc fly is anybody home '' more whooshing ahead !

sihing

01-08-2006, 07:18 PM

Not a bad idea........ (At least do it politely, though.) :)

Most of the debates that drag on here for days would be over in minutes if we were exchanging ideas together in the kwoon. There's nothing like experiencing something first hand from someone that has reality-based knowledge of what they're talking about.

Agreed. If we were face to face there would be alot less time spent as we can exchange for real. That's the thing here, sometimes it takes some time to digest what the other people/'s are trying to convey, maybe at times the understanding is incorrect or the way it was expressed was not thorough enough???

James

chisauking

01-08-2006, 07:38 PM

Lawernce said: There's nothing like experiencing something first hand from someone that has reality-based knowledge of what they're talking about.

Very true, Lawernce. The question is: whose reality? As you and others on this forum may NOT know, there are many perspectives of reality. For example, some perceive K1 to be reality, and based on this TV show say wing chun is lacking and proceed to conceive chop suey wing chun.

On the other hand, MY reality could be an illusion thinking that wing chun alone is suffice for reality????

The only way to find out is definately not by wearing birdcages or boxing gloves as far as wing chun is concerned

Matrix

01-08-2006, 07:43 PM

The question is: whose reality? Do you want the red pill or the blue pill? ;)

sihing

01-08-2006, 07:54 PM

Do you want the red pill or the blue pill? ;)

LOL, perfect.....

James

Edmund

01-08-2006, 07:58 PM

Which one's the chill pill?

By stating that there's more than one perspective means to me that you can learn from a perspective other than your own.

i.e. You could learn something by wearing gloves and birdcages and trying something outside of what you already are familiar with.

Matrix

01-08-2006, 08:08 PM

By stating that there's more than one perspective means to me that you can learn from a perspective other than your own.Very True. We can certainly learn alot from each other since we all have different perspectives. Knowledge is one of things that expands when it is shared. I've had the good fortune to meet some folks here personally and train with them. I look forward to meeting more in the future. I'm very confident that everyone has something that they could teach me, and I hope that I have something of value to give back in exchange.

Peace,

Matrix

01-08-2006, 08:17 PM

LOL, perfect.....Thanks James. I've got a million of 'em.

Two peanuts were walking through Central Park and one was "a salted". :p

Rule #6.

KPM

01-09-2006, 03:37 AM

Hey Vic!

I know that you're not one of the wing chun hardliners - and that's all to your credit. And yes, I see your point about why the deletion upset you...as you were finding the thread interesting. (I did too).

---So you don't mind someone coming up to you and telling you to "shut the F... up!"????

But my position is that a guy like Ernie needs to be cut some slack; as he said, he's never deleted a thread before. Ernie has made many excellent contributions to this forum.

---So Ernie is deserving of special treatment? I thought we were all on equal footing here?

Would you rather see him leave? Or would you rather see him occasionally vent some anger and frustration but still stick around?

---He can vent all the anger and frustration he wants. But does it have to be at the expense of others?

That's my real point.

---My point has been this.....why is behavior that would be considered rude and unacceptable in a face to face situation OK in a forum situation??? No one yet has tried to answer that one for me! :eek:

Furthermore, knowing Ernie...don't be surprised if he sends you a pm offering you (personally) an olive branch.

---I guess you don't know Ernie as well as you thought! He has certainly surprised me lately with his comments on this thread. I used to think Ernie was a pretty cool guy and that I would look him up if I ever got down his way. Now I'm starting to change my opinion. Oh well. I'm sure he thinks that's funny too!

Keith

KPM

01-09-2006, 03:45 AM

Often people can not see past there own reflection in the monitor ;)

Quote '' hello mc fly is anybody home '' more whooshing ahead !

Hey Ernie!

Those comments apply just as equally to you! I'll ask again....why is behavior that would be consider rude and unacceptable in a face to face situation considered OK in the forum? I think that has been a part of the problem here for awhile, and I'm not saying its just you. People feel free to do things and say things to others here that they would never do face to face. Hence the hard feelings and flame wars that sometimes crop up. Its like when people are driving in their cars....meek and mild people will feel free to flip someone off and cuss and yell, or cut them off in their lane simply because being in a car creates a level of separation from the other guy. They will do things from their car that they would never do when standing in the line outside of a restaurant or theatre. Social rules should apply to any social situation....including a forum! People shouldn't feel justified and free to act like a rude SOB just because the other guy isn't standing right in front of them! I'm sure you'll have another snappy sarcastic comeback. Which will just reinforce what I'm saying. Oh well. McFly out!

Keith

01-09-2006, 05:59 AM

"I came here for a good argument."
"No you didn't, you came here for an argument."
— Monty Python

Flame Wars and Other Online Arguments (http://members.aol.com/intwg/flamewars.htm)

Credits to one of our forum members awhile back for this one; my apologies for not recalling at the moment which of you posted it.

Enjoy.
- kj

Ernie

01-09-2006, 09:20 AM

Keith=Hey Ernie!

Those comments apply just as equally to you!
---- I don't understand ? are you actually implying that [insert loud echo voice of God here, and thunder crashing for dramatic effect ].... I,I,I,I, ! ....should be held to rules of puny mortals !!!! Suffern succotash the nerve of lower life forms !

I'll ask again....why is behavior that would be consider rude and unacceptable in a face to face situation considered OK in the forum?
---- ok I really hate to break it to you , but it's a one dimensional world , were oh geez dare I say it ! .....[insert whisper] lean in real close , some people have fake names and identities , yes it's terrible but it's true ,,,,, no Keith I know this next part is really hard to deal with so hang on buddy ,,,, lean in a little closer and you can hold my hand for this one ,,,,,, most people don't give a rats ass about you or me , your opinion on this or any matter , there just wasting time and proving to themselves how smart they [ like I'm doing right now ] ---[insert Nathan Lane voice ] oh the irony of all !!!

I think that has been a part of the problem here for awhile, and I'm not saying its just you. People feel free to do things and say things to others here that they would never do face to face.
---- Trust me if I think some one is being a dumb a$$ in person I will tell them and except the same from real friends , good relationships are built on strong ''real'' foundations and no shook by the small $hit

I'm sure you'll have another snappy sarcastic comeback.
---- of course I can't let down the readers of {The deconstruction of Ernie } down , they have grown accustomed to it !
but before I would like to offer you a digital mirror , all of the tendencies [except you wrap it up in more politically correct dialogue , which I consider a sign of being fake when ever any one plays that role ] you have shown in your own Saga ,,, the Pin [head]sum universe according to Keith and Jim ]
were you time and time again dragged the forum down your little personal spat with Jim , as if we cared , this was an arrogant assumption to think we cared , just like thinking any one cares what the hell is going on with you and I right now beyond comic relief ] then you showed a very stubborn tendency , continuing to badger away just to get your point across [which in the grad scheme of life doesn't really matter , just like mine right now ] but you have shown these repetitive pattern to just nag and drag things on ,,,,,,, so in any social circle this would thin out the heard around you real quick and some one hopefully a friend would tell you to , dude kick back your acting like a freak , relax , get a life ,,,, sound familiar ! [ insert bells , whistles and fire works ]

so I would like to help you here buddy by saying it's OK to hate me , I forgive you , I understand you can't help yourself , I forgive you
you are a very ''centered'' individual , best wishes and puppy dog tails E.
:D

Matrix

01-09-2006, 03:06 PM

"I came here for a good argument."
"No you didn't, you came here for an argument."
— Monty Python
"Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour? :D :D

Mortal1

01-09-2006, 03:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kj
"I came here for a good argument."
"No you didn't, you came here for an argument."
— Monty Python

"Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?

Oh no you have it all wrong. This is getting hit on the head lessons. :)

Love python

Matrix

01-09-2006, 03:20 PM

Hey Mortal1,
Me too!
But we better stop taking this thread off on a tangent before the all-powerful OZ , I mean Ernie, crushes us like the little bugs we are.
P.S. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. ;)

Ernie

01-09-2006, 03:21 PM

KPM

01-09-2006, 05:30 PM

but before I would like to offer you a digital mirror , all of the tendencies [except you wrap it up in more politically correct dialogue , which I consider a sign of being fake when ever any one plays that role ] you have shown in your own Saga ,,, the Pin [head]sum universe according to Keith and Jim ]
were you time and time again dragged the forum down your little personal spat with Jim , as if we cared , this was an arrogant assumption to think we cared , just like thinking any one cares what the hell is going on with you and I right now beyond comic relief ] then you showed a very stubborn tendency , continuing to badger away just to get your point across [which in the grad scheme of life doesn't really matter , just like mine right now ] but you have shown these repetitive pattern to just nag and drag things on ,,,,,,, so in any social circle this would thin out the heard around you real quick and some one hopefully a friend would tell you to , dude kick back your acting like a freak , relax , get a life ,,,, sound familiar ! [ insert bells , whistles and fire works ]

so I would like to help you here buddy by saying it's OK to hate me , I forgive you , I understand you can't help yourself , I forgive you
you are a very ''centered'' individual , best wishes and puppy dog tails E.
:D

OK. So that's the way it is. Pretty typical for here in this forum....admit no wrong-doing on your own part......ignore the message......attack the messenger. Nothing personal against you Ernie. This forum has been going down hill for awhile now. That's just the last straw for me. It seems that I am part of a very small minority that sees forum conversations as the equivalent of face to face conversations and believes that participants should be granted the same basic courtesies. I'll be spending my time elsewhere from now on. But you probably think that's funny too! :rolleyes: So long everyone!

Keith

Ernie

01-09-2006, 05:41 PM

OK. So that's the way it is. Pretty typical for here in this forum....admit no wrong-doing on your own part......ignore the message......attack the messenger. Nothing personal against you Ernie. This forum has been going down hill for awhile now. That's just the last straw for me. It seems that I am part of a very small minority that sees forum conversations as the equivalent of face to face conversations and believes that participants should be granted the same basic courtesies. I'll be spending my time elsewhere from now on. But you probably think that's funny too! :rolleyes: So long everyone!

Keith
Au revoir :p

--- but really Kieth , thick'n up that Skin playa , stay in the game !
you pretty much told me i'm full of $hit ,,,, and I ain't mad atcha :D
just put me on ignore , i'm nobody special any way ;)

PaulH

01-09-2006, 06:26 PM

Keith,

You might as well. You're unhappy and that is understandable considering the outcome of your unfulfilled expectation of the others from the forum lately. I think you'll be much happier working toward meaningful goals elsewhere anyway. But should you to opt to stay and improve further this forum, all the more admirable of your characters. All I can say is conversation is often the demostration of goodwill in the face of apathy. And that's very human in all of us. Keep it light and free if you can.

Matrix

01-09-2006, 06:44 PM

It seems that I am part of a very small minority that sees forum conversations as the equivalent of face to face conversations and believes that participants should be granted the same basic courtesies. Keith,
Like common sense, common courtesy isn't too common these days. While it doesn't make it right, you'll save yourself a lot of grief by lowering your expectations, not your standards, in that department. Expecting others to live up to a standard that you've personally decided to believe in is often setting yourself up for disappointment.
Having said that, just keep your mind on the things that you can control. As the Buddha said "Be a light unto yourself".

Peace,

Matrix

01-09-2006, 07:13 PM

i'm nobody special any way The first step towards a solution, is admitting that you have a problem. :D

Ultimatewingchun

01-09-2006, 09:26 PM

See...I told ya Ernie would offer an olive branch. :rolleyes:

Well, sort of....:cool:

Hey Keith: If you split tha'll be one less guy around here who agrees with me about the Wing Chun as a MMA approach!!!

Jeez, I hate that! :eek:

Ernie

01-09-2006, 10:54 PM

The first step towards a solution, is admitting that you have a problem. :D

I'm glad you approve , but i can't stop being honest ;)

Phil Redmond

01-10-2006, 01:13 AM

. . . His training practices seem to be of a more realistic nature, in other words not pure WC, . . . .
James
Does that mean "Pure WC" isn't realistic? Also, what is "pure" WC. That is a sad statement for WC if that's what you meant James. There is no such thing as "pure" WC. Especially in YM WC where there was no specific curricullum (sp)? Didn't WSL said don't be a slave to WC?
Phil

ghostofwingchun

01-10-2006, 06:56 AM

This is not meant to be criticism of any person in particular . . . but I am thinking that it is not good for people to speak for wc . . . to say wc is meant to do this or that . . . or to say wc is meant to be like this or that . . . or wc has this or that . . or wc has this agenda . . . or wc has this vision . . . or wc is . . . wc is . . . wc should be . . . instead I am thinking it is better to say my wc has this focus . . . my wc is meant to do this or that . . . my intention with my wc is this or that . . . my agenda with wc is this or that . . . and so on . . . it is not wc that any of these things . . . it is the people who practice wc that bring them to the art . . . it is a good thing to share . . . but share along lines of this what you do how you approach art and so on . . . and leave speaking for wc out of it . . . when person speak for wc they sound presumptous and arrogant I am sorry . . . I am thinking it is easy to lose perspective that our goals focus intention desires agenda and so on may not be same for others . . . so using woman's art as example it is a fine thing to say this is how you view wc or your expression of wc is a woman's art but understand that you are not right . . . that you do not speak for wc . . . and that some other persone may approach wc differently . . . and neither of you speak for wc . . . each are perfectly valid . . . same with nhb wcers. Many of the things kj says in explaining her view I too have found from my experience . . . but some of her views do no match my experience . . . I am not a woman so I do not want to fight like general woman . . . I want to practice wc and fight like me . . . if someone is tall why fight like small person . . . person is fast they should use it . . . if person is slow they need to deal with that . . . and so on . . . to make wc suit me not some ideal . . . my experience is that smaller weaker can not wait or be patient in fight . . . that smaller weaker need to be more aggressive to win . . . it is bigger stronger that can wait or be patient . . . and I have other nitpicks too . . . but my point is kj's view is for her wc to be woman's art . . . this is fine . . . for me I have different view . . . neither of us speak for wc . . . I have found that if I am smaller and weaker I should be more aggressive . . . this is what I must do . . . I share that not to tell others how wc must be done but to say this is idea that has worked for me . . . perhaps it can work for you . . . and perhaps not. I very much like hearing others views and experiences about wc . . . and want to hear more . . . as this helps me in clarifying my own views . . . but emotional investment in speaking for wc only brings conflict . . . at least this is how I am seeing it.

Thanks,

Ghost

sihing

01-10-2006, 09:17 AM

Does that mean "Pure WC" isn't realistic? Also, what is "pure" WC. That is a sad statement for WC if that's what you meant James. There is no such thing as "pure" WC. Especially in YM WC where there was no specific curricullum (sp)? Didn't WSL said don't be a slave to WC?
Phil

No Phil, my statement does not mean WC is not realistic. But it is a pure form of MA IMO. Yeah we all do it differently, but for your family it is pure (or it should be at least), or it should be passed down in a pure, authentic form. Then after the student has learned and absorbed the delivery system, they are free to express it anyway they like. Ernie's way, IMO, is much more leaning towards building attributes that teach fighting skills earlier in one's progression. I teach WC (not just fighting), which as a by product teaches one many things, primarily the ability to defend one's self. There is a process here so that the student learns Wing Chun specifically, in a step by step manner. If all they really wanted is to learn to fight, I could teach them that in a day. All they would need to do is to practice it over and over until it becomes second nature. KISS philosophy here.

James

Ernie

01-10-2006, 09:33 AM

No Phil, my statement does not mean WC is not realistic. But it is a pure form of MA IMO. Yeah we all do it differently, but for your family it is pure (or it should be at least), or it should be passed down in a pure, authentic form. Then after the student has learned and absorbed the delivery system, they are free to express it anyway they like. Ernie's way, IMO, is much more leaning towards building attributes that teach fighting skills earlier in one's progression. I teach WC (not just fighting), which as a by product teaches one many things, primarily the ability to defend one's self. There is a process here so that the student learns Wing Chun specifically, in a step by step manner. If all they really wanted is to learn to fight, I could teach them that in a day. All they would need to do is to practice it over and over until it becomes second nature. KISS philosophy here.

James

Funny thing James , since you have never trained with me , or Gary it would seem your back on the assumption train again ;)

i could just as easily say , that people your Kwoon stretches out the system adds in
non wing Chun things like high kicks , chi gung, carido kids classes the all in one kung fu shop just to make money , and none of things belts , grading , uniforms have anything to do with Yip Man wing Chun at all or the correct way to teach it

and then i of course would be making assumptions right ;)

but yes i will give we are result driven not social club driven

01-10-2006, 10:03 AM

You post is a fair one, Ghost. You are good at getting the mental juices flowing, so here are a few more thoughts.

. . . but my point is kj's view is for her wc to be woman's art . . .

Not that this was the concern of your post, but just a minor point of clarification, FWIW. In writing on the subject (per your quote), I was addressing a question someone asked about my teacher's contention. If our fellow forum member had not asked, it is highly unlikely I'd have bothered to offer it. However often we may cite the quotation, it is a credit to my teacher. He doesn't offer any apologies for asserting it. Nor will I. The saying's provocative nature is one of its greatest values.

[Just for the record, my teacher is not a small woman. :D]

Both sympathizers, detractors, and people simply chewing over something, like to reference or discuss topics like this from time to time. Therefore I attempted to be fairly crisp in the introduction of the topic for discussion (well, at least for me, LOL). As a thread title, it is also easily searchable (assuming the thread title sticks in the archives now that it's been moved into Hardcore). The explanation I offered is of course my own interpretation, so only I am to blame for that, LOL.

My own posts are often peppered with acquiescences in hopes of soothing sensitive souls and savage beasts; disclaimers possibly in annoying degrees, LOL. I included a limited disclaimer on the subject at hand, though it was my intention not to veil or soften the point I was attempting to clarify. I am confident that many others, in sharing their thoughts or viewpoints and regardless of sympathy or antipathy to my views, wish to avoid dampening their meaning when they write also.

. . . my intention with my wc is this or that . . . my agenda with wc is this or that . . . and so on . . . it is not wc that any of these things . . . i

I agree with your intent here. We are not here to impose upon one another, and anyone who is, is misguided. At least misguided in my case since I'm incorrigible until I decide otherwise, LOL. Certainly it is not my aim to impose on others.

IMHO, every post should be read as if it contains the author's own "my" disclaimer (opinion, view, experience, observation, belief, practice, etc.), whether or not one is explicitly written. Even if a person sincerely believes they possess the one and only truth (and even if they actually do), or attempting to emotionally strong arm, win favor through rhetoric, etc., everyone should be read with a grain of salt.

We may sometimes debate semantics and certainly we debate on technical issues. Yet I share a deep core value with Ernie and some others on the spirit of taking full ownership, responsibility, and accountability for ourselves and our own development. Further it is our own responsibility to avoid being bound, tricked, fooled, or unduly influenced in our thinking by the will or wiles of others. Caveat emptor in everything. A double dose in discussion forums!

Regarding impoliteness. In my view, name calling is impolite. Telling other people what they supposedly think or what kind of people they are is impolite. Stereotyping individuals rather than discussing issues at hand is impolite. Failing to show respect for the person, the real human being behind the words, is both impolite and uncivil. Being direct about one's thoughts or beliefs is, IMHO, something to be commended. Those with the forthrightness to say "this is what I believe" should be thanked for it. Dissent, disagreement, and conflict can lead to new discoveries, insights, growth, and progress.

BTW, I admire your painstakingly patient style. Directness has its practicalities, as does the path of considered cautiousness. Everything to its own advantages and disadvantages. To me, it's an issue of balance; what is required in order to achieve balance can vary, even moment to moment.

Like you, I appreciate the overwhelming and often unintended impact of behaviors. That isn't to imply I'm well behaved, LOL.

In case you are interested in such things, here is a link to a book on the topic of civility (http://http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312281188/qid=1136908592/sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-4660554-9919248?n=507846&s=books&v=glance) that I especially enjoyed.

Lest it go neglected as usual, it seems worth saying that there are a great number of folks on this and other forums who've won my further respect through the years, and regardless of agreement on issues relating to Wing Chun. Hopefully many of them know who they are.

This is all just my opinion of course. I also reserve the right to change my mind at any time. :D

Regards,
- kj

lawrenceofidaho

01-10-2006, 10:22 AM

The question is: whose reality? As you and others on this forum may NOT know, there are many perspectives of reality........The only way to find out is definately not by wearing birdcages or boxing gloves as far as wing chun is concerned
When you're sparring, unless you are a sick & insecure individual, you will avoid the following types of attacks:

1) Clubbing a stunned opponent that is barely able to defend themself in the back of the head as a follow up to a striking combination. (Instead, just back off knowing the opening was there, or simply push them and take their balance causing them to fall down.)

2) Gouging your thumb or fingers hard into someone's eyes (versus gently setting them on top of a closed eyelid to show that they would be vulnerable to an eye strike from that position.)

3) Soccer kicking the face of a downed opponent with full power with the intent to drop his teeth down his throat. (Why not just air kick without contact?)

4) Explosively cranking a heel hook and destroying an opponent's knee. Or for that matter any explosive joint submission which might break bones or injure joints in such a way that a martial arts career might be permanently affected, or even ended. (Instead, apply the submission with slower, steadily increasing pressure to give the opponent ample time to tapout and avoid snapping something.)

Justin (Amanujry) recently referred to his military experience and brought up the example of war games being analogous to sparring. I thought this was a very good parallell because it is an attempt to closely simulate some of the chaos and unpredictability of combat reality while minimizing serious danger and injuries. -If the military stupidly insisted on "real" war games (using live ammo, etc.), there would be few troops left to defend the nation, -or on the other hand, if they limited the soldiers' training only to structured drills, they would not be prepared for battles. There must be a balance struck to ensure optimum preparedness with minimal injury, and of course, to realize the limitations of any training scenario versus actual application (where things like the techniques in my list above are allowed.)

-Lawrence

sihing

01-10-2006, 10:35 AM

Funny thing James , since you have never trained with me , or Gary it would seem your back on the assumption train again ;)

i could just as easily say , that people your Kwoon stretches out the system adds in
non wing Chun things like high kicks , chi gung, carido kids classes the all in one kung fu shop just to make money , and none of things belts , grading , uniforms have anything to do with Yip Man wing Chun at all or the correct way to teach it

and then i of course would be making assumptions right ;)

but yes i will give we are result driven not social club driven

Assumptions are always prevalent when people have no real information about one another. If my assumptions are wrong concerning someone else on this forum then I have no problem being corrected concerning the matter.

Concerning my Sifu's kwoon, I think it makes sense to use the space that he is paying for as much as he can. Why not offer courses that may or may not be Wing Chun related. Since I worked there, all of the courses, except Yoga which is sometimes on and off, are WC related. The conditioning classes (not really Cardio classes), use exclusively WC movements and techniques. The kids learn WC, not some other form of MA. High Kicks are taught, and whether or not they are considered a traditional aspect of the art is debatable. If I fight someone that is 5' tall, kicking them in the head is not a high kick for me, but kicking someone 6'4" in the head is. Plus, how one is supposed to practice defending, and have knowledge of these movements without knowing how to perform them. Whether or not this is traditional Yip Man WC, I believe this is not a high concern for my Sifu. He sets up the curriculum the way he sees fit, to benefit the students the most in his opinion. People there are getting 25+hours a week of instruction, as well as access to private lessons from the top instructors, access to all the equipment, all included in the monthly fee($95 CAN for an adult). Good value if you ask me.

In Sifu's school, it takes relatively 7 years to learn the entire system. Pretty standard time to learn the entire system compared to other schools, thus I have heard. If someone wants to learn it faster they can, as nothing is impossible.

Nothing wrong either with make a profit at it. As long as the quality is high, and the students are learning something real (in this case a real form of Wing Chun), it is a good place to learn. Just yesterday, at a Martial Arts council meeting they have here in Thunder Bay, they were talking about how one of the TKD instructors in town was selling black belts and how some of his students (who were former students of the people at the meeting) went from red to black in one month. Obviously, profit is the motivation concerning this instructor. This is when it becomes a problem.

James

ghostofwingchun

01-10-2006, 10:42 AM

Thank you kj for your reply! I was not . . . I hope you realize . . . criticizing you in any way . . . I know you were only answering my query and expanding on what your instructor meant . . . and I was just using your post as point of departure for my own developing thoughts . . . I agree with you one hundered percent that civility is paramount to discussion . . . since discussion involves first and foremost concern with trying to understand other . . . not just get your own view across . . . screaming at other or calling them names is not discussion . . . this is Jerry Springer . . . and in my view is more about ego identification and emotional investment than discussion . . . not with trying to understand others or learn through intelligent discussion. . . but to convince others their view is right. The trouble is . . . there is no right if goals or objective are not the same . . . and often even if goals are the same there is more than one right way to achieve them . . . sometimes many ways. Your views . . . whatever they are . . . may serve you well . . . just as Ernie's may serve him well . . . my views may share in part with you in part with Ernie in part with others . . . this is all good and as it should be I am thinking. It is easy thing to view world as black and white . . . it takes more work to see things in shades of gray . . . Bertrand Russell said The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. I am thinking maybe if we less certain of ourselves we could be more understanding of others. . . but I could be wrong . . .lol.

Thanks,

Ghost

PaulH

01-10-2006, 10:44 AM

I'm not one of Ernie's boys :D though occasionally I volunteer to be the guinea pig for their training just to satisfy my curiousity of their learning progress.

James, while attribute training is an important aspect of Big E's program, it is just a small complimentary part to go with various overall skill training aspects. I was impressed in particular of the highly inventive way that Ernie changed the traditional Seung Ma Toy Ma drill to make it even more powerful and effective. Johnny, one of the little guy and a relative new learner in my kwoon, actually used it to throw me off very well though I am more experienced as well as much more heavier. Just sharing my feedbacks on true and honest coaching ability and talents of Big E and Big trouble maker! :D

Ernie

01-10-2006, 10:44 AM

James ,
my intent was not to question your Sifu or what you just to show how when a person assumes something with no first hand experience they perhaps my not know what there talking about buddy ;)

one of those shoe on the other foot things :D

sihing

01-10-2006, 11:41 AM

PaulH

01-10-2006, 11:57 AM

Okay, James. Now everything is dandy. I like to go back to my ZZZZZZZZZZZ! Thanks! :D

Ernie

01-10-2006, 04:00 PM