Is Wing Chun for Everyone??? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

AmanuJRY

01-07-2006, 11:04 AM

I was thinking, in light of some recent conversations, how we decide if an art is right for us or not. Most of us on this forum have chosen WC as our art (primary, at least), and though we don't agree on many aspects of what that means, we agree that WC (as we each know it, individually) is right for us.

But then we go and try to convince others about how 'efficient' and 'effective' it is, based on how WE (as individuals, not a group) understand it and how WE employ it. I don't think we spend much time thinking about how someone else would view it.

My case in point...

I have a good friend, he is an Aikido instructor (and very successful with his school), he doesn't engage in BS, style vs. style arguments or lengthy debates on proper structure, etc. and he is a very cool F'n person.

Oh, yeah, and he only has one and a half arms (yup, and he's an exellent akidoka, pretty good at snowboarding, too).

So, in the past I have discussed with him the similarties in theory and practice between our two arts. In these discussions I came to realize that the use of chi sau (at least poon sau) was ineffective...as you probably have guessed, this is because he is missing an arm (or at least most of one).

Now, not having both arms doesn't prevent one from learning theory and footwork, but his footwork is quite stable and rooted and his theory is so similar (barring sematic differences) that that point is moot. But it does, at least limit a person from being able to learn chi sau (one of the, or THE, main developing tool for WC). This was also the case with another, seemingly normal individual who, turns out, has double-jointed shoulders and could not perform a bong sau (not even faking it, let alone to actually have the structure).

This 'handicap' didn't seem to slow him down in the slightest in studying Aikido. His movement look fluid, his touch is light and sensitive, his footwork is stable and powerful...and he didn't need to learn WC to accomplish it.

So, I'm not going to end this post with some rhetorical question, but with this statement...

We all choose the art we choose for the reasons we see fit in them. We believe (have faith) in our ability because the instruction has convinced us of its strength. The real question or answer is in how easy (or hard) we are to be 'convinced'.

Matrix

01-07-2006, 03:02 PM

Justin,

Good Post. My initial comment would be that it is not for everyone. However, the limitations are not imposed as much by physical ability (as in the case of your aikido buddy) but rather by mental/psychological limits that are largely self-imposed. I think this art requires more patience before you will see the results you're looking for. Someone who is looking to "mix it up" is not going to have the patience to learn SLT and all of its nuances, nor will they have the vision to see the benefits.

I've made this comment before. I think aggressive people who like to fight are attracted to MMA because they can get the immediate satisfaction of smacking someone upside the head. Asking them to wait until they learn proper structure through the repetition of slow-motion forms and basic drills is not going to appeal to them at all.

sihing

01-07-2006, 03:37 PM

I agree with Bill, this is a good post. When I started training the main thing I was told was that Wing Chun was specifically meant for each and all of us equally. IMO this is a true statement, as I have proven it to myself over all the years in the system and teaching the skills to others successfully. In essence WC transcends limitations. In the example given, only one arm, that is the limitation for that particular practitioner. This limitation will follow him in what ever Martial Art they choose to train in. The question then becomes, what Art form can accommodate that limitation the best. Now, saying that, it is my opinion that WC can accommodate that type of practitioner just as easily, if not easier, than most MA. Regarding Poon Sao in the chi-sao drill, that can easily be adapted to only the use of one arm, as there are already drills in the system that only deal with one arm. Of course the practical application of the movements and techniques for this practitioner will be harder, but again this will be the same for anything that they try to do in the Martial Arts.

For me when I meet people that are interested in the Wing Chun, I tell them that in my experience anyone can do it. I've proven that for myself, because when I started I had no experience in the Martial Arts, and was not a boy wonder while learning it. I trained hard & consistently, and understood thoroughly what I was learning, mostly because I loved it and was always curious to learn more. My interest level was extremely high. Not everyone will be like me, so therefore this will reflect in how well they apply it and how well they understand what it all means. And some just do not want to learn it for whatever reason (like the examples Bill gave and so on) and move on to something that spikes their interest higher. Just today, at a demonstration we were putting on, a young man approached me and said he really liked what he saw in the demo. His main thing was he could see the focus reflected in what I was trying to convey to the audience and saw the practicality in it also. I did not try to convince him to join our club, but offered a free lesson to him, so that he could experience it himself, learning more than just me trying to explain the whole system to him in 5 minutes. Whether or not he joins does not matter for me personally, but I know it will benefit him in other ways besides just learning how to fight.

James

anerlich

01-07-2006, 09:25 PM

I think aggressive people who like to fight are attracted to MMA because they can get the immediate satisfaction of smacking someone upside the head.

I dunno, I've got plenty of "immediate satisfaction" at my WC school, as have many of my classmates at my expense.

Becoming a good MMA fighter IMO has a more complex learning curve than WC. Also, the beginning period before you have a clue about what to do in the clinch and on th ground are arguably much more confronting and involve greater investment in loss and humility than what happens at some TMA schools.

anerlich

01-07-2006, 09:27 PM

My first KF instructor, David Crook, often told me, even this past Christmas, that there is an ideal MA for everyone ... but exactly which one is ideal varies from individual to individual.

Matrix

01-08-2006, 09:13 AM

Becoming a good MMA fighter IMO has a more complex learning curve than WC. I've heard similar comments before, and that hasn't been my experience. To be "good" at Wing Chun is much more complex that it appears IMO. I'll let you know for sure, if I ever get there.

AmanuJRY

01-08-2006, 10:40 AM

My first KF instructor, David Crook, often told me, even this past Christmas, that there is an ideal MA for everyone ... but exactly which one is ideal varies from individual to individual.

This is exactly what I was meaning with my anecdote. I train in WC, because it best fits my opinion and ability. I also train in other arts to get a more well rounded view and to learn some tools that are not in the WC toolbox, not to 'bash some heads', if that were my goal, I'm sure I could find some 90lb weakling to appease my bloodlust. But that is not the case, and I'm relatively certain that the number of people like that, even in MMA, is a low percentage.

The interesting thing, to me at least, is that my friend and I can exchange Ideas, seek to understand each other's art and views on them. Also, we discover similarities in thought, differences in sematics, and have the same ultimate goal (in this I mean, to be natural, fluid, balanced and effective). These discussions I find quite pleasing and they give fresh perspective. What's important is that no 'style' or 'liniage' issues ever enter the discussion, unlike most WC conversations. It seems that when discussing a completly different art, the aspect of lineage is never an Issue (duh), and a rational dicussion or even debate can happen. But in our little 'WC' world there is so much of a 'That's not the WC I know' attitude that we can't even enter simple conversations let alone a legitamate debate on anything MA without degrading to the same old BS.

Ultimatewingchun

01-08-2006, 10:40 AM

"I think this art (wing chun) requires more patience before you will see the results you're looking for. Someone who is looking to 'mix it up' is not going to have the patience to learn SLT and all of its nuances, nor will they have the vision to see the benefits.

I've made this comment before. I think aggressive people who like to fight are attracted to MMA because they can get the immediate satisfaction of smacking someone upside the head. Asking them to wait until they learn proper structure through the repetition of slow-motion forms and basic drills is not going to appeal to them at all." (Bill/Matrix)

***I AGREE WITH THIS, but my reasons are probably different than Bill's reasons, especially when you consider that Bill also went on to say this:

Originally Posted by anerlich
"Becoming a good MMA fighter IMO has a more complex learning curve than WC. "

"I've heard similar comments before, and that hasn't been my experience. To be 'good' at Wing Chun is much more complex that it appears IMO. I'll let you know for sure, if I ever get there." (Bill)

***I AM COMPLETELY CONVINCED, by now...that a MMA approach to wing chun yields the best results (since wing chun is primarily a very close infight striking/kicking system - and therefore needs assistance at other ranges).

Teaching my students longer range boxing/kickboxing married to some of the Traditional Wing Chun central line principles, blindside strategy, entry techniques and footwork has been easier to do than teaching them the wing chun nuances once they get to very close range.

(This is not to say that the longer range stuff is not complex - because it is...but when you fight so close to the opponent - as in the prototypical closer wing chun range - then there is a smaller margin for error...since your opponent is so close that his attacking moves can affect you quicker than from a longer distance. Therefore more time and certainly more patience is needed to master this range).

Matrix

01-08-2006, 12:22 PM

***I AM COMPLETELY CONVINCED, by now...that a MMA approach to wing chun yields the best results (since wing chun is primarily a very close infight striking/kicking system - and therefore needs assistance at other ranges).Hey Victor,
What's most important is that you've found an apporach that works for you and your students. Wing Chun is NOT religion. It's a methodology and I think we each need to find our own way. My point was that I think WC looks like it has a simple learning curve, but that soooo superficial. To learn to do a Tan Sau is simple enough, but to learn to use it effectively within the system is much more difficult. I'm still refining my tan sau today, even though I "learned it" on day-one. Excelling at any endeavor implies, at least to me, that you are continuing to work on your craft long after most others have lost interest or given up.

BTW, as an experienced teacher, what's your response to the original question?
Do you think it's for everyone??

lawrenceofidaho

01-08-2006, 12:51 PM

I think WC looks like it has a simple learning curve, but that soooo superficial. To learn to do a Tan Sau is simple enough, but to learn to use it effectively within the system is much more difficult.
I agree completely, Bill. I believe that Wing Chun is the best art for a handful of individuals who can be very dedicated to it over the long haul (i.e.- "Not for everyone")

For the average Joe (or average Jane) who wants to train a couple times per week as a hobby and learn a bit of fighting skill, I would recommend other arts that Mr. Nick Forrer appropriately described on another thread as "plug & play".

If ten friends of mine (untrained in MA) approached me for advice about beginning learning the martial arts, there would probably be only one or two that I would recommend taking up Wing Chun.

-L

AmanuJRY

01-08-2006, 01:03 PM

Wing Chun is NOT religion.

I could be easily mistaken about that, by the way some go about disputing their version of WC, dodging behind semantics and using circular logic much like religions and cults.;)

Matrix

01-08-2006, 04:48 PM

For the average Joe (or average Jane) who wants to train a couple times per week as a hobby and learn a bit of fighting skill, I would recommend other arts that Mr. Nick Forrer appropriately described on another thread as "plug & play".Lawrence,
I guess I see your point about "plug & play" but I feel that's really only putting wallpaper over the cracks in the wall. The so called "plug & play" arts give people a false sense of security. They have a 'Black Belt' in some art and they think that means something in the real world. Right now I'm thinking of that guy that Sihing73 mentioned in his Toys R' Us parking lot exchange. :rolleyes:
To be 'good' at anything takes time and effort, so why not pick a great martial art to train in? Why waste even a couple of days per week on something has limited upside potential. My experience says that it will do more harm than good. Of course, I could be totally off the mark here. It's just my POV.

Having said that, I think most people would not immediately see the value of SLT, for example. They'd much rather break a board or do a 180-degree spinning hook kick. It's flashy and it sells.

Your mileage may vary....

Ultimatewingchun

01-08-2006, 04:53 PM

"BTW, as an experienced teacher, what's your response to the original question?
Do you think it's for everyone??" (Bill/Matrix)

***NO I DON'T, Bill...precisely for the reasons that folks have been talkin' about on this thread - which is not far from what I said previously.

Wing Chun does require more time and patience to master than most arts, imo. And so the (relatively) instant gratification that some other arts might provide does not exist within pure wing chun.

It's also another reason why I introduce my students right from the get go to other aspects of combat when they join my school; in other words, in addition to SLT, basic wing chun punching, kicking, footwork, and various chi sao related drills (ie.- pak sao, bong/lop sao, dan chi sao, etc.)...they are also introduced right away to longer range boxing type punches, footwork, longer range kicking, wrestling, etc.

Besides providing a more wholistic approach to where I'm ultimately trying to take them - it also serves the purpose of providing some actual fighting skills quicker than if it was a pure wing chun program wherein they might not do any real sparring or sparring related drills for some time.

It keeps their interest up - but without sacrificing quality, imo.

Ernie

01-08-2006, 06:29 PM

What is the goal of any martial art
self mastery !
in the beginning you might think it's all about what you can do to the other guy
but this gets into the what if's what if he is big , small , strong , fast , boxing , wrestling,
armed, with friends ,,,,,,,,,

so you might then think [as many do ] you need to accumulate techniques for each imaginary situation
and this can empower you and make you feel like you have discovered the magic blue pill
but funny thing about situations , they keep evolving and changing , they just don't stay in the first little time capsule
you pictured in your mind when you had your little epiphany

you see you are still being dictated by outside forces , chasing hands if you will

the only thing you can really do , is learn to master yourself , to get your mind and body to function as one
to understand your balance , your comfort zone , your speed , your timing , your rhythm, your footwork , your power , your ability to change adapt evolve take in and process information on the fly .

the individual will always be superior to the art , because the individual is a living breathing dynamic thing

the path to self mastery can be found in many different approaches since the system is just a road not the goal
people at the top of there game be it boxing , MMA , [insert your favorite ''combat system here''] are far more alike then different , there mind and body moves as one
they have reached the top of there mountain , found the cause of there ignorance

it's the rest of the poor label queens stuck on the thousands of different roads up that can't see beyond there own bung holes , like a stubborn mule that refuses to take the next step , the majority of TMA ,Sifu types filling kwoons around the world , and filling minds with BS are this group , the have gotten just good enough in there little training world to be charlatans and tricksters to blind the sheep with slight of hand and ghost stories .
these court jesters are the reasons there are so many road blocks and detours on the road to self master

it's not that any one system is greater really , it's just human fear [to take responsibility for there own growth and journey ] laziness [to put it blindly in the hands of others with out question ] and stubbornness/ego [ that once they have vested to much time under a charlatan they will close there minds of to that fact and stay in and often perpetuate the lie ] better this then to face that they have wasted so much time , training and emotion

they lack personal spirit and cover it up with catch phrases , tricks , slight of hand and ghost stories ,generations of mules pilled up on the road covered in there own crap!

is wing Chun the best art for you , wing Chun is ''you'' and so is any and everything else you wish to do or use on your journey to get to know yourself ;)

anerlich

01-08-2006, 07:34 PM

I guess I see your point about "plug & play" but I feel that's really only putting wallpaper over the cracks in the wall. The so called "plug & play" arts give people a false sense of security.

Which MMA-related arts are these? Boxing? MT? Judo or Greco-Roman wrestling? BJJ?

How exactly do these arts give someone a false sense of security, when doing chi sao, forms, and whacking a dummy and wallbags does not? Why are there cracks behind MMA wallpaper but not WC's?

How is all the stuff about perfecting your technique, sensitivity etc. inapplicable to boxing, wrestling or groundfighting? Can you not suck at WC but be self-delusional about it just as easily if not more as you can with at BJJ, wrestling, MT or boxing?

I see a Straw Man Walking here ... AS Ernie implied if I didn't misread him, it's about how *you* think and act, not which particular line of propaganda you decide to follow.

And they said in the brochure that WC was developed by the Shaolin to produce competent battlefield warriors in a shortened period of time. Surely they wouldn't lie...

Matrix

01-08-2006, 07:37 PM

How exactly do these arts give someone a false sense of security, when doing chi sao, forms, and whacking a dummy and wallbags does not? Why are there cracks behind MMA wallpaper but not WC's?
I was thinking more along the lines of TKD and karate. How did you get MMA out of that?:confused:

AmanuJRY

01-08-2006, 11:04 PM

But who here has suggested using a TKD or Karate model?

I think by 'plug and play' they mean streamlined, self defence programs as opposed to a complete MA system.

anerlich

01-09-2006, 03:36 PM

I was thinking more along the lines of TKD and karate. How did you get MMA out of that?

Follow me. First you say:

I think aggressive people who like to fight are attracted to MMA because they can get the immediate satisfaction of smacking someone upside the head. Asking them to wait until they learn proper structure through the repetition of slow-motion forms and basic drills is not going to appeal to them at all.

Then this - forgive me for not spending an hour or so doing a search for Nick's post:

I guess I see your point about "plug & play" but I feel that's really only putting wallpaper over the cracks in the wall. The so called "plug & play" arts give people a false sense of security.

Then suddenly:

I was thinking more along the lines of TKD and karate.

Can you see the train of thought I thought I was following?

BTW, one of my training buds' fiance is a four time National Kyokushin champion in his weight division. I don't see him having any false sense of security. My points about boxing, BJJ, etc. apply equally well to TKD and karate, in any case. Try to make your case without dragging other people's arts down. Every art has its good points, and it's the practitioner, not the art, that is the primary cause of effectiveness or otherwise.

Matrix

01-09-2006, 03:46 PM

lawrenceofidaho

01-09-2006, 04:09 PM

The first had to do with Plug & Play (I admit I never read Nicks comment) which I automatically understood to mean McDojo.
Sorry Bill,

I probably should have offered more of an explanation when I borrowed Nick's term.

"Plug & play" means quickly & easily connecting / adapting to fit in with other arts, as well as fast results that are seen without needing years of practice.

"Plug & play" has absolutely nothing to do with McDojos / McKwoons, as those types of establishments are in the business of selling fantasies, -not real results....

-Lawrence

Matrix

01-09-2006, 04:29 PM

Sorry Bill,

I probably should have offered more of an explanation when I borrowed Nick's term.Lawrence,
No need to apologize. I'm the one who jumped the gun on that one.
Sometimes you just see what you want to see. Ooopps........

Tom Kagan

01-09-2006, 04:41 PM

Ving Tsun is for everyone who wants to learn it.

Boxing is for everyone who wants to learn it.

Jiu Jitsu is for everyone who wants to learn it.

Karate is for everyone who wants to learn it.

The Cello is for everyone who wants to learn it.

Dance is for everyone who wants to learn it.

How many people want to learn much of anything? This is a much harder question to answer, IMHO.

anerlich

01-09-2006, 09:04 PM

You can connect whatever other dots you like or be offended by my comments if you like. I've had a lot of experience in both the arts I mentioned earlier. So, I'm speak from my own experience.

I'm explaining the dots I connected sincerely that led to making my comment, which you questioned, and which I offered an explanation.

I've been around the block a bit myself outside the WC roof.

I still can't see the point in dissing other arts. There's good karate and karateka, and there are WC schools and students who suck.

Sorry if that offends you.

Man, you are going to have to try a whole lot harder to even come close. :D

GungFuHillbilly

01-10-2006, 01:42 PM

[QUOTE=Ernie]What is the goal of any martial art
self mastery !
QUOTE]

Great post!

I think Ernie’s statement cannot be over-stated. There is a lot of truth in it.

Instead of asking if Wing Chun is for everyone (funny how the question wasn’t really being asked as a legitimate question but rather as the opening of Justin’s dialogue but everyone seemed to want to answer it…[correct me if I am wrong here Justin]) let’s rephrase it as:

Is (blank) right for everyone?

Let’s go one step further and ask:

Is (blank) the best vehicle to use “on your journey to get to know yourself”…?

A person’s response to a method/art/vehicle depends on their level of consciousness at the time.

Bill Said, “Wing Chun is NOT religion.”

I must disagree (at least in principle) here. It would appear that the world of martial arts is VERY similar to the world of religion: The Master sharing his insights; the students recording it as the gospel Truth and then arguing about who was secretly given the ULTIMATE Truth by the Master; disciples disagreeing and branching off to form their own version of the Truth. Hypocrites going to church once a week thinking their souls are saved while they bed their best friend’s wife…Or better yet find in your congregation that BTK was with you all along and you thought he was a pretty nice guy! ; )

Whether it be martial arts or religion or (insert here), the real question is can said method/art/vehicle assist the person in raising their level of consciousness and get the person to know more of who they are?

The problem is that most people really don’t want to face who they are. They would rather wrap themselves up in mythology and argue about who learned the five-point-palm-exploding-heart technique.

Just as many religions were originally designed to get people to commune with (insert whatever you wish: God/your True Self/your Soul/etc.), but somewhere along the way people took it as the Truth and begin preaching instead of PRACTICING.

What if I asked…Is death metal the right music for me? How about punk? Or the music of the Bulgarian Women’s Choir?

It comes down to what speaks to you on a physical/mental/emotional/spiritual level (and not necessarily all of them at the same time, that is contextual).

In closing, I might love jazz and want to play like Coltrane, but is that likely? Probably not. Some people may love basketball but can’t jump (no ethnocentrism implied here).

Anyway, this tangent has been way too long.

I think Ernie said it best:

“wing Chun is ''you''”

-GFH

AmanuJRY

01-10-2006, 02:05 PM

GFH,

You're purdy sharp fer someone from Arkansas (no ethnocentrism implied here). ;)

Nick Forrer

01-10-2006, 02:07 PM

Anerlich,
Two quotes, both used in a different context.
The second one referring to MMA's has to do with the mindset of a person who might not be interested (looks too boring) in WC training.
The first had to do with Plug & Play (I admit I never read Nicks comment) which I automatically understood to mean McDojo.

To clear up any confusion..the original post/source of confusion:cool: :

'Boxing and muay thai are much more 'plug and play' then wing chun and are easier to 'bolt on' to a grappling base. The basics can be picked up in an afternoon and three months of solid training will give you a good grounding. Contrast this with learning slt, ck, dan chi sau, chi au, bong lap and all the rest. Something like Rodney Kings crazy monkey so called 'non attribute' based boxing is enough for many grapplers to neutralise the striking range, get into the clinch and take their man down to where they are comfortable. WC is overkill for them.

As an aside I recently got a wc training partner of mine to lie on the floor, I mounted him and told him to escape while I rained punches down on him. He did a good job of defending the punches but he couldnt get me off and once he tired I subbed him pretty easily. Conversley when I got him to mount me - it took me all of 3 seconds to escape and put him in my guard. Thats just with a blue belt in BJJ. Honestly with 6 months to a year consistent training 2x a week you can escape from pretty much any hold that a non grappler will put you in. If you're serious about self defence definitley a worthwhile investment IMO.'

GungFuHillbilly

01-10-2006, 02:15 PM

I believe that Wing Chun is the best art for a handful of individuals who can be very dedicated to it over the long haul.

If ten friends of mine (untrained in MA) approached me for advice about beginning learning the martial arts, there would probably be only one or two that I would recommend taking up Wing Chun.

Lawrence,

Good stuff. However, I am interested (sincerely) on what criteria you would use to determine which of your friends you would suggest Wing Chun to.

I am guessing that many of you believe that someone should be at a certain developmental level before they begin training. Is this correct? (This is a not a judgment good or bad. I am merely attempting to understand the context.)

Honestly, I myself have mixed feelings about teaching some people. On one hand, I have seen martial arts change people. I have seen people who were street thugs transform into genuinely caring, great people. On the other hand, I myself would probably not have taught them. (My own prejudice being that I don’t want to teach someone that is going to turn around and use the art to hurt people in a malicious manner.) How do you really judge this? I mean everyone thought BTK was a nice guy…

So I guess my question is this: Of those here that are instructors (and by that I mean you have the authority to decide who stays in your group/kwoon and who gets the proverbial boot) how do you choose who you teach and who you won’t?

Or put another way. If like Lawrence, you wouldn’t suggest Wing Chun to more than 2 out of 10 people. What would those 2 people possess that would influence your decision or cause you to give them the specific advice?

Thanks!

- GFH

AmanuJRY

01-10-2006, 05:10 PM

I think it's by measure of an individual's interest (by this I mean will or intent), if they show an aptitude to handle the bombardment of theory and science behind WC and if their needs (or specific goals) can be met by it.

I think only a small portion of the decision would be based on personality.

sihing

01-10-2006, 06:32 PM

Is this thread about personal preference towards an MA or if the art itself is suitable for everyone?

If it is about personal preference, then this is a hard question to answer. Everyone has different ideas and thoughts about things. I had a little exposure to Karate and Judo when I was a kid (like a couple of weeks worth), and I just didn't like the vibe I got from the dojo (must of been the stinky feet). When I joined the Kwoon my Sifu had, I could feel the energy and it was something I wanted to be a part of, I just knew that as soon as I went into the place. Can't explain why I had this feeling, as I never heard of the art before and never heard of Sifu before. It was all totally new.

James