Martial Art Student Evolution Creating a monster?

[Sifu Darkfist]

As teachers of any subject it is our duty to ensure that our students surpass us as soon as we possibly can! Many are afraid this means they no longer need us at some point. Nothing could be further from the truth. No one can see their ability in its true form, therefore no one can ultimately correct themselves. This ensures our relevance as teachers of all subjects.

Nothing can replace age and experience no amount of natural skill. This is the relevance of the wonderful masters that walk the earth today.
many of you feel this way as well I just wonder how many still do not push their students for fear of losing our relevance or superiority as martial artist.

without this evolution the art inevitably dissapates into worthless dance.
What to respond to? How long before you trust a student enough to make him better than you?

Nothing feels better to me than a streak of uncertainty when sparring a student the type of uncertainty brought on by their ability that you helped create.

[green_willow]

One way to surpass your master is to break with tradition and cross training in many different styles. It is shun upon by traditionalist but who cares right - when you dabble a bit in BJJ and MMA you become a much better fighter.

[SPJ]

The roles and relationship between the student and the teacher;

There was a story I was told when I was a young boy.

MA is like the architect or design of a big old Chinese mansion.

The teacher is the guide. The student is the visitor.

There are 3 levels.

1. Out side of the door. or Men Wai Han.
At first, we watch how others practice. We learn to practice without knowing what, why and how etc. As if we walk around the wall of the big mansion or Dai Zai Yuan without knowing what are inside of the door or beyond the wall.

2. Climb the stairs to enter the lobby. Deng Tang.
So the teacher or the guide opens the door and shows us how to climb up the stairs and enter the lobby. The teacher shows us the basics of MA and guides/helps us to get into the lobby. So that we have a glimpse of the what is inside. and yet we are not knowing it all.

3. Enter the chambers/rooms. Ru Shi.

After some years of study and practice, we are shown different aspects/classics of each room. Then we start to appreciate what is the architect of the whole mansion with all the rooms, yards, gardens etc etc.

After that, the students or we are on our own.

:D

[SPJ]

What I meant to say is that;

We may inherit the architect or the design, and build another mansion like it.

We may borrow some ideas and change a bit.

We are our own masters.

We have to build our own mansion according to our likes, dislikes,

So start digging and lay a brick,

or pitch a tent,

or borrow a bear cave,

etc etc.

:D

[Golden Tiger]

One way to surpass your master is to break with tradition and cross training in many different styles. It is shun upon by traditionalist but who cares right - when you dabble a bit in BJJ and MMA you become a much better fighter.

Interesting thoughts green willow. Something similar happened to me a long time ago. I had a student that worked very hard and was well on his way to becoming an excellent MAist. One day he decided to test me and I ended up tossing him around the gym. He soon left class and moved on to train in bjj and tool various jobs bouncing at bars and such. A couple of years later he came back and all but outright challenged me. Since I was teaching at that moment, I made him sit and wait until class was over. After clearing the room, I invited him on to the floor. Again, I tossed him around the gym. He had been training for the wrong reasons and let anger cloud his mind. He was most suprised because most of the new techniques he tried were easily countered.

Moral of the story: You master/teacher may teach you everything you know but not everything he knows.

But also, when a student becomes better than me (and it has happened quiet a fewe times) that is my proudest moment. I know I have done my job.

[green_willow]

Interesting thoughts green willow. Something similar happened to me a long time ago. I had a student that worked very hard and was well on his way to becoming an excellent MAist. One day he decided to test me and I ended up tossing him around the gym. He soon left class and moved on to train in bjj and tool various jobs bouncing at bars and such. A couple of years later he came back and all but outright challenged me. Since I was teaching at that moment, I made him sit and wait until class was over. After clearing the room, I invited him on to the floor. Again, I tossed him around the gym. He had been training for the wrong reasons and let anger cloud his mind. He was most suprised because most of the new techniques he tried were easily countered.

Moral of the story: You master/teacher may teach you everything you know but not everything he knows.

But also, when a student becomes better than me (and it has happened quiet a fewe times) that is my proudest moment. I know I have done my job.

that ex-student you threw around might have been me LOL

But did you exstudent improve after doing a stint of BJJ? i weould have thought that working at the bars have brought him some street creds which would be handy.

[Golden Tiger]

that ex-student you threw around might have been me LOL

But did you exstudent improve after doing a stint of BJJ? i weould have thought that working at the bars have brought him some street creds which would be handy.


Look at most people that get bounced...not exactly the most challenging now are they....Mainly drunk, elevated emotional state, niether good for a fight.....

[Sifu Darkfist]

The point i am trying to make is that the skills of the students must take a higher level naturally or else you lose the viability of the system through degeneration. Human beings continually improve with generational evolution due to advanced rigors that the human body experiences. For example, the age old debate regarding the jim brown versus the modern defensive backs. The fact is brown would be pulverized period.

Thus the zai yao of human martial evolution. If your student is less likely to be able to handle a punch or use the art effectively you are actively spawning the end of your style.

So the so called teachers that hold back their art (some people have mentioned these issues on this forum) Contribute to the extinction of an effective fighting art. I lickily come from a line of Masters that value the Applications of their art as do i when i teach.

When i take on a student My job is to make him better than me his or her job is to take it to the next level.

[SPJ]

MA is an evolution over time or over generations as pointed out.

So it is a slow process. or a small change or a bit at a time.

Each style has some essential ingredients.

There are 2 general processes.

1. changes, derivations or variations from the basic or essentials.

2. integrations of new or different things with the original essentials.

In Tong Bei, there are 5 element palms. They may be interconvertible. From the the 5 plams, 24 combo or hand methods are derived during the Kuo Shu Guan era in the 1930's. example of 1.

Several people integrated the steps and the 24 hand methods into Pi Gua and enriched Pi Gua. example of 2.

Again, it is a slow process over the practitioner's life time and generation upon generation.

2 major divisions of Pi Gua came together, studied from each other and merged into the present day Pi Gua. example of diversification and convergence.



:D

[PangQuan]

Clear point Sifu Darkfist.

When thought about with an open understanding of change w/o the biast instincts that commonly occur during speculation and or pondering the continuation of any skill set/trade this is actually plain common sense.

would the carpenter decide not to tell his student how properly perform every part of his duties? i highly doubt it.

Martial art is a trade like any other, (aside from its applications and focal points in action), and as such must adhire to the same guidlines behind which to continually improve upon the technology/effectiveness of said trade.

[SPJ]

Agreed.

Ma evolution was and still is a group effort overtime.

Not just about openness and honesty among practitioners ie teachers and students alike.

It really needs a full cooperation from all party to engineer or restructure the said style.

:)

[Banjos_dad]

Look at most people that get bounced...not exactly the most challenging now are they....Mainly drunk, elevated emotional state, niether good for a fight.....

i can tell he, this is true. Ejecting belligerent drunks is not so much of a fight, and it doesn't give you that proud feeling you might get from a victory in another context. even if all the barflies around you are telling you you did something great.
the only ones that gave me a hard time were either: groups, sometimes: or people armed with improvised weapons.



but look out cause once i wrench that pool cue out of your hands i am going to make you cry lol.