Chan Tai San

[Anthony]

Since there is so much discussion surrounding him on this forum I think it's time that one of his students dedicates a thread to verification of his accomplishments and credentials (through links possibly) for the rest of us who didn't know him. If it is at all possible.

For example, his professional fighting experience (in the military), the subway mugging (from CTS stories thread), and any other related credentials verifying his status in the eyes of his students that are on this site.

I'm not demanding mind you. Its just that with so many threads involving his students and his name, it would be nice to have that sort of info on him. Right now it seems were "taking your word on it," or trusting that you have good sources.

You say he fought western boxers. We don't know which "western boxers" he fought or how good they were. What is a western boxer anyway? Do you mean a non-chinese pro-boxer, or a chinese who trained in western boxing? It's not clear.

We don't know relevant details of the mugging incident that D. Ross recounted (if there is a newspaper clipping it would be nice to see).

Anyway, by now you know what I mean. I realise that some events may not be verifiable. I figured it wouldn't hurt to request it anyway. I'm sure it would help everyone.

[Anthony]

By the way, don't go gettin mad at me for posting this, I'm not doubting anyone or anything.

It's just that there's enough un-verifiable greatness in the TCMA community surrounding masters.

[Green Cloud]

I'm not sure why you need such evidence. There are several people on this web site that can verify most of this stuff. If your asking a bunch of Sifu's on a forum to spend their time sending you evidence forget about it who are you! Give me a break just go to China town Sanfransisco or New York CT. There are also a slew of Sifu's that can tell you stories about him. CTS was a very famous man in his hay day. Then again look at his students accomplisment and impressive reputations in tournaments. Anyway I don't suppose you go to any of these competitions. If you did you might ask someone hey do you know something about CTS.

[hskwarrior]

If i can ask anthony a question.........

Chan Tai San is no longer with us, so it would be unfair as well as disrespectful to question the authenticity of a respected sifu such as him. If you wanted to see if Chan Tai San was any good of a teacher, I would suggest that you take a look at the quality of his students.

The quality of their gung fu will no doubt reflect Chan Tai San's teachings, whether they be great, mediocre-sorry misspelling-or below average. Another way to verify is to contact these well known sifu's in the united states such as tat mau wong, y.c. wong, the white crane school, etc etc. and then by anyone else who truly knew him.

No student wants to stand there listening to someone downgrade, question or even disrespect his/or her sifu. If you were truly faithful to your sifu, then it would show in every one of your actions, from fiercely protecting him or his honor to accepting an order to do someone harm. As a student it is not our place to ever question that.

I will refer to an incident but the names will be changed to protect the innocent. :D

One day my sifu called me and instantly i could hear his voice shaking. I asked what wrong, and he basically told me that the guy behind the counter of a certain estabishment totally and completely without reason disrespected my sifu.

He never asked me to, but without question i asked where this was, what he looked like and when will he be there. So i went to this establishment acting like a nice little square ass penny loafer wearing collar up on his IZOD short sleeve shirt having white guy and asked for the largest hottest cup of coffee i could get.

well, i let your imaginations run on that one, but needless to say i took care of business and restored my sifu's honor just as a loyal student should. And to be completely and totally and blatantly honest, anyone who wouldn't put their lives on the line for their sifu is weak in my book. as students we have obligations, written or unwritten.

If your sifu is out of toilet paper it is your job to go out and get it. but thats only if your truly are loyal to your sifu, and those that are know exactly what im talking about.

Peace.

[Anthony]

Green Cloud, from your tone, you sound a little annoyed....I suggest you calm down and not misinterpret my post because you have no reason to be annoyed (why is it such a crime to be inquisitive? or why is it considered disrespectful?). Most of your questions for me are already answered in my first post.

I never asked anyone to send me anything! I suggested that it would be beneficial for everyone on this forum who doesn't know him.

"There are several people on this web site that can verify most of this stuff."

Cool....that's what I asked for.

"who are you! "

Who do I need to be ???? I guess I'm just an interested person (is that a crime?)

"Give me a break just go to China town Sanfransisco or New York CT. There are also a slew of Sifu's that can tell you stories about him."

I'm already getting stories here and I'm not about to go travelling around the country (that's just ridiculous......now you give me a break).

"Then again look at his students accomplisment and impressive reputations in tournaments."

Where and how?

Let me repeat myself. I'm only asking because there's so much being discussed about him on this forum. I didn't think it would be a big deal since some of his students already spend so much time on this forum talking about him. I figured (if anything) they would be happy to promote his accomplishments. Although I did anticipate that you guys might get defensive.

"Chan Tai San is no longer with us, so it would be unfair as well as disrespectful to question the authenticity of a respected sifu such as him."- hskwarrior

I disagree because I'm not trying to put him down as a person or tarnish his memory. If I questioned the accomplishments of Alexander The Great or Ghengis Khan would I be guilty of the same crime of being disrespectful? I tried to word my first post so it wouldn't seem disrespectful. David Ross has commented in other posts that some of his accomplishments are easily verified. I thought he could point us in the right direction with links, etc. It's not as if I could just go down to Barnes-and-Noble and buy a biography of CTS. If it turns out to be a problem for any of CTS's students......fine, then it ends here. Our lives will go on.

[Mr Punch]

Read the long CTS thread again...

David Ross has dealt with the problem of verifying CTS stories there, and given evidence of Chinese newspapers there already.

Some things are not verifiable by modern historians standards, and some things which are relatively acceptible to modern historians are not adequately explained for say, scientists or investigative reporters. So what? Does that mean they didn't happen?

I'm not coming at this from some naive ass's perspective, I'm as skeptical as the next person, but I love the way since everyone's an internet investigator these days, everybody wants the proof without having to do the legwork. Guess what? Investigation of these kind of things to any reliable standard takes time and money: and while the burden of proof should lie with the claimant in this case Ross aof about some things and where you can go to get proof about others.

[lkfmdc]

1. Chan Tai San was not Rorion Gracie, he didn't walk around with a video camera taping every fight he ever had. If you can't accept that, it's on you

2. Chan Tai San took out the guys on 42nd street in 1982. It was in the Daily News and Newsweek, maybe the post also... look it up

3. Can you read Chinese? Great, go get the Toi San District, Canton (Guangdong province) annual almanac for 1950 and you'll see CTS took third in the free sparring competition that year. Behind Lei Fei San and the Hsing Yi guy

4. Are you near ANY of the following sifu? Frank Yee, YC Wong, Tai Yim, Chan Poi, Wai Hong, Tat Mau Wong, Ming Lum, Jack Hoey, uh,,,, list goes on and and on

ASK THEM about Chan Tai San

5. The subway thing when he was living with Steve Ventura, sorry, didn't make the papers, neither did about 10,000 other events in his life... the world exists without internet links....

6. Do you read Chinese? Mike Parrella could send you to about 45 links on the internet, in Chinese.....

Can't help it if you can't read Chinese, can I?

7. What is a western boxer? It's a guy who does western boxing as opposed to Chinese Boxing/kung fu....

Did I say he challenged Mike Tyson for the championship of the world? No. I said he fought boxers, like he fought a million guys over his life

8. Do you live in NY? Do you speak Mandarin? Go to the local KMT lodge here in NYC and ask them why they hosted a banquet in CTS's honor in the 90's

9. Go to Toi San city and ask around. You'll hear plenty of stories

Or, you could realize that just because YOU don't know who he is doesn't mean jack...

[hskwarrior]

Dave,

the name Jack Hoey, is he from San Francisco? if it is i have a picture of him and lau bun posing together. if it is we know him as jack Huey.

Dave, if you wanted me to get some statements from Y.C. Wong, Tat Mau, Ming Lum, Jack Huey, and even the white crane sifu (i just don't like to throw his name around). But i can go to them, ask them about Chan Tai San and report my findings back here on this forum. If if comes from me it --since i am an outsider in the knowledge of knowing him personally (cts) i would unbiasedly report whatever was told to me. good or bad.


what do you think?

[lkfmdc]

It is probably the same Jack, he's an Ng Yim Ming (Harry) student....

YC Wong, Ming Lum, Leung brothers, all know who Chan Tai San was and can tell you good things... Tat Mau event learned stuff from CTS!

Frank, if you want to ask, I obviously got no problem with that.

[lkfmdc]

This is Jack Hoey, with sifu and Tony Galvin
http://lionsroar.name/david_28.jpg

This is sifu with Chan Hak Fu
http://lionsroar.name/david_23.jpg

[lkfmdc]

I have to dig up the pic, but when we went to SF the first time, we went into Brendan Lai's store. HE wasn't there, no big deal, his wife was so we just wanted to buy some weapons. Well, sifu walks in, he had been next door buying some coffee...

As G'd is my witness, Sifu Lai's wife goes "oh my, Chan Tai San!", she calls up Sifu Lai at home and tells him Sifu Chan is there. Sifu Lai leaves his house and comes in to give us a private tour of the store.

He then asks sifu if he can take a picture with him. He puts sifu in a chair and stands behind him to take the picture. If you are really in TCMA, you know what that means....

[lkfmdc]

http://lionsroar.name/david_34.jpg

This is a picture of Chan Tai San breaking wires at a demo in Canton City in the mid 80's... it was his fabled "return tour"... He had been in Canada teaching at the Hong Luk club in Toronto for several years and agreed to take them back to Canton and be their guide. When they arrived, people were so excited to see Chan Tai San back in Guangdong that they asked him to do three special demonstrations. All sold out...

Anyone know the Hong Luk people up in Toronto?

[lkfmdc]

http://lionsroar.name/david_1.jpg
This is Sifu Chan, me, gus, Mike with Leung Kwan, his students, Ming Lum

[hskwarrior]

if it will shut the people up about questioning CTS's authenticity i will gladly put up what our city's masters remember about your sifu.

it is for you guys and chan tai san that i would do this, in one way to honor him since i never got to know him.

i don't think the people on this forum wants that, but i think i will do it anyway. hell it will give me something to do. Im going to chinatown this morning anyway, because my girl and i like going to the porkchop house (new lun ting) then the little mall on grant (great star?:confused: ) anyways they have awesome deals on vcd's and dvds.

heading out to teach a class, get back at ya later.


peace.

[Green Cloud]

Green Cloud, from your tone, you sound a little annoyed....I suggest you calm down and not misinterpret my post because you have no reason to be annoyed (why is it such a crime to be inquisitive? or why is it considered disrespectful?). Most of your questions for me are already answered in my first post.

I never asked anyone to send me anything! I suggested that it would be beneficial for everyone on this forum who doesn't know him.

"There are several people on this web site that can verify most of this stuff."

Cool....that's what I asked for.

"who are you! "

Who do I need to be ???? I guess I'm just an interested person (is that a crime?)

"Give me a break just go to China town Sanfransisco or New York CT. There are also a slew of Sifu's that can tell you stories about him."

I'm already getting stories here and I'm not about to go travelling around the country (that's just ridiculous......now you give me a break).

"Then again look at his students accomplisment and impressive reputations in tournaments."

Where and how?

Let me repeat myself. I'm only asking because there's so much being discussed about him on this forum. I didn't think it would be a big deal since some of his students already spend so much time on this forum talking about him. I figured (if anything) they would be happy to promote his accomplishments. Although I did anticipate that you guys might get defensive.

"Chan Tai San is no longer with us, so it would be unfair as well as disrespectful to question the authenticity of a respected sifu such as him."- hskwarrior

I disagree because I'm not trying to put him down as a person or tarnish his memory. If I questioned the accomplishments of Alexander The Great or Ghengis Khan would I be guilty of the same crime of being disrespectful? I tried to word my first post so it wouldn't seem disrespectful. David Ross has commented in other posts that some of his accomplishments are easily verified. I thought he could point us in the right direction with links, etc. It's not as if I could just go down to Barnes-and-Noble and buy a biography of CTS. If it turns out to be a problem for any of CTS's students......fine, then it ends here. Our lives will go on.
I'm sorry that my annoyance bothers you, but I forget that some people on this forum may not have been raised following proper etiquette in the Chinese martial arts. Back in the day information like these stories that are told on line were not available to us. Alot has changed in the past 30 years. When we all younger, me and my training brothers were very eager to hear any stories about great masters. I definitaly never questioned a respected sifu when he shared some interesting stories about his Master. I definately never demanded to see any proof that would be disrespectful. Not to say that I didn't do my own research, I simply did it in a way that wasn't rood. I just simply confirmed my stories by asking around. As far as calming down I dont know what you meant by that, I wasn't angry when I replied to yor post. I just wanted to know who you are to ask of such things in such a demanding manner. You catch more bees with honey. The point I'm making is that if you dont ask me in a nice way why should share anything with you. I'ts no skin off my teeth if you dont want to believe respected masters stories. Most of the stories that I herd about Chan tai san I herd from total strangers that had nothing to gain by telling these stories. I never asked for proof. Over a period of time I herd the same stories over and over again from sifu's and laymen. If have a chance go to N.Y. China town and ask any waiter waitress or shop story hey can you tell me a story about the great Chan Tai san? Make sure you have a translator , some time, and don't forget the popcorn. I usually take my students to china town and it's a treat for them because they get to eat Dim sum and hear great tales about their Si Gung. I remember when we went to san fran for the first time. As we walked the streets of china town people were coming up to CTS and were lining up just to shake his hand. I remember lookin at dave and saying that's pretty weird everyone knows him what's he the former mayor os san fran or something. Then it hit me that my Sifu was not just the average bear. As we made our way to go visit Sifu Brendan lai's Martial art supply one of the largest martial art supplie stores at the time. Brendan li got rest his soul, he was agreat master in his own right, he was amazed that Cts was in he store. he aproached us and asked us for an intoduction. He went on to explain that the reason he was so excited was that he had no Idea that sifu Chan was for real. He continued to explain to us that according to the stories he herd about CTS he might of well have been a super hero. According to Sifu Brendan Lai he was sure that sifu was just a legend. The storie once again spilled out of Sifu Lai. I'm trying to make this short but no CTS storie is short. After some conversation Sifu Lai asked Cts to head up his kung fu org. ran up a hill in his three peace suit to get Cts some water and let us take as many weapons from his store as we can carry for free. It wasnt till that san fran trip that I raelized my Sifu was a diamond in the roughf. As far as getting proof about these stories I can't they are just stories told by many. In the comming future me and my training brothers will try to compile more info about him. Much of that stuff is on video wich is hard to share on line. But ask nicely and say please with sugar on top and maybee you might see something cool. Untill then I guess youre just going to have to listen to these threads. Do you know how small the Chines martial arts comunity is??? if you make something up some one will call you on it so believe you me this stuff is true. :) :)

[lkfmdc]

Here are two more pictures

(edit)

First one is taken in YC Wong's school, bonus points if you can name some of those in that crowd

Then there is me, Sifu, Gus with Tat Mau Wong.... if you are from SF, you must know where this is :)

[lkfmdc]

I told this story in the CTS stories thread

We were in SF and Sifu was talking to this female student of Tai Yim's... we invited her out to have tea the next morning... then sifu mentions it to Tai Yim, ultimately, many of the masters in attendance ended up coming to tea..... see how many you recognize

[lkfmdc]

If you are in SF... you know who this is....

[lkfmdc]

Better quality pic , posted this before , we are in white crane school, CHINESE ONLY, with Sifu Chan and the Leung brothers

[lkfmdc]

Since I am home with my photo album and scanner now....

This is where Steve Ventura and I trained, in the old old days.....

[lkfmdc]

Finally, as for how Sifu Chan's students did in competition

http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda/tournament.jpg

This pic is from the first time we went to the NACMAF event, an all Chinese national event where the judges were all famous SIFU

We won over 15 trophies, in forms, weapons and sparring....

[Green Cloud]

Green Cloud, from your tone, you sound a little annoyed....I suggest you calm down and not misinterpret my post because you have no reason to be annoyed (why is it such a crime to be inquisitive? or why is it considered disrespectful?). Most of your questions for me are already answered in my first post.

I never asked anyone to send me anything! I suggested that it would be beneficial for everyone on this forum who doesn't know him.

"There are several people on this web site that can verify most of this stuff."

Cool....that's what I asked for.

"who are you! "

Who do I need to be ???? I guess I'm just an interested person (is that a crime?)

"Give me a break just go to China town Sanfransisco or New York CT. There are also a slew of Sifu's that can tell you stories about him."

I'm already getting stories here and I'm not about to go travelling around the country (that's just ridiculous......now you give me a break).

"Then again look at his students accomplisment and impressive reputations in tournaments."

Where and how?

Let me repeat myself. I'm only asking because there's so much being discussed about him on this forum. I didn't think it would be a big deal since some of his students already spend so much time on this forum talking about him. I figured (if anything) they would be happy to promote his accomplishments. Although I did anticipate that you guys might get defensive.

"Chan Tai San is no longer with us, so it would be unfair as well as disrespectful to question the authenticity of a respected sifu such as him."- hskwarrior

I disagree because I'm not trying to put him down as a person or tarnish his memory. If I questioned the accomplishments of Alexander The Great or Ghengis Khan would I be guilty of the same crime of being disrespectful? I tried to word my first post so it wouldn't seem disrespectful. David Ross has commented in other posts that some of his accomplishments are easily verified. I thought he could point us in the right direction with links, etc. It's not as if I could just go down to Barnes-and-Noble and buy a biography of CTS. If it turns out to be a problem for any of CTS's students......fine, then it ends here. Our lives will go on.
I'm sorry that my annoyance bothers you, but I forget that some people on this forum may not have been raised following proper etiquette in the Chinese martial arts. Back in the day information like these stories that are told on line were not available to us. Alot has changed in the past 30 years. When we all younger, me and my training brothers were very eager to hear any stories about great masters. I definitaly never questioned a respected sifu when he shared some interesting stories about his Master. I definately never demanded to see any proof that would be disrespectful. Not to say that I didn't my own research, I simply did it in a way that wasn't rood. I just simply confirmed my stories by asking around. As far as calming down I dont know what you meant by that, I wasn't angry when I replied to yor post. I just wanted to know who you are to ask of such things in such a demanding manner. You catch more bees with honey. The point I'm making is that if you dont ask me in a nice way why should share anything with you. I'ts no skin off my teeth if you dont want to believe respected masters stories. Most of the stories that I herd about Chan tai san I herd from total strangers that had nothing to gain by telling these stories. I never asked for proof. Over a period of time I herd the same stories over and over again from sifu's and laymen. If have a chance go to N.Y. China town and ask any waiter waitress or shop story hey can you tell me a story about the great Chan Tai san? Make sure you have a translator , some time, and don't forget the popcorn. I usually take my students to china town and it's a treat for them because they get to eat Dim sum and hear great tales about their Si Gung. I remember when we went to san fran for the first time. As we walked the streets of china town people were coming up to CTS and were lining up just to shake his hand. I remember lookin at dave and saying that's pretty weird everyone knows him what's he the former mayor os san fran or something. Then it hit me that my Sifu was not just the average bear. As we made our way to go visit Sifu Brendan lai's Martial art supply one of the largest martial art supplie stores at the time. Brendan li got rest his soul, he was agreat master in his own right, he was amazed that Cts was in he store. he aproached us and asked us for an intoduction. He went on to explain that the reason he was so excited was that he had no Idea that sifu Chan was for real. He continued to explain to us that according to the stories he herd about CTS he might of well have been a super hero. According to Sifu Brendan Lai he was sure that sifu was just a legend. The storie once again spilled out of Sifu Lai. I'm trying to make this short but no CTS storie is short. After some conversation Sifu Lai asked Cts to head up his kung fu org. ran up a hill in his three peace suit to get Cts some water and let us take as many weapons from his store as we can carry for free. It wasnt till that san fran trip that I raelized my Sifu was a diamond in the roughf. As far as getting proof about these stories I can't they are just stories told by many. In the comming future me and my training brothers will try to compile more info about him. Much of that stuff is on video wich is hard to share on line. But ask nicely and say please with sugar on top and maybee you might see something cool. Untill then I guess youre just going to have to listen to these threads. Do you know how small the Chines martial arts comunity is??? if you make something up some one will call you on it so believe you me this stuff is true. :) :)

[Anthony]

Green Cloud,

I appreciate your last post very much. It seems to come from the heart and you are the only one (of CTS's students) who tried to educate without insulting or talking down. You truly used your own advice "You catch more bees with honey. " and your points are well taken.

"As far as calming down I dont know what you meant by that, I wasn't angry when I replied to yor post."

Sorry, it sounded like you were angry and it wasn't the result that I wanted.

10 people will interpret a post 10 different ways. Even if my post was re-read by me and worded like a legal document, misinterpretations will still occur. In the end, it was just a query. Chris, If you think I have some hidden agenda you are wrong. You could just have just asked me what I really think. Using a post to interpret my post was, in my opinion a waste of time.

If this thread is deleted save Green Cloud's post as an example of impecable character and maturity. Most people saw me as an insult and wanted to dismiss (delete) me. He actually showed that he cares enough about his teacher to try to bring me closer to him (and his teachers legacy) and help me. Thank you again.

[lkfmdc]

Here's a good one, major article on the NACMAF national competition from Nov 1992 IKF magazine... not only was Sifu Chan one of the feature demonstrators, the magazie ran his pic as the lead.... I guess because he was no one and had no accomplishments :rolleyes:

(insert sarcasm here)

[lkfmdc]

Burried in stuff he can't dispte, he retreats... how about just an apology for making a post without bothering to do any fact checking on your own?

[Fu-Pow]

Dave,

Your various pictures of Chan Tai San no doubt show that he had many friends and aquaintances in the kung fu world. No doubt he had much respect as a great master of kung fu. You would expect that he would have many pictures from his many years in the kung fu community. (as does my own Sifu, albums and albums of them, in fact.)

That, however, does nothing to answer what Anthony was asking for. Proof of Chan Tai San's accomplishments as stated in the various threads about him. "Proof" would take the form of independent 3rd party accounts of what happened regarding Chan Tai San.

Rumor within the Chinese community cannot be taken as any kind of conclusive evidence. If you repeat something enough times it can "become" the truth. But that doesn't mean that it actually went down.

If you have access to this 3rd party information, in Chinese or otherwise, then please post it. I have access to translation, it's really no problem to translate.

If not, then we can only take these non-verified accounts as "historical fiction" (as I contended in another post). Perhaps based on some events that really went down but changed and embellished over the years as they went through the grapevine.

In addition, if you expect that others take your stories as "proof" then I would ask that you grant others as much leeway in their accounts of various masters and historical figures. You can't ask that we blindly except your stories about Chan Tai San and at the same time cut down other people's stories based on more stringent standard of proof.

I really have no interest in this matter accept to promote a more logical and consistent discourse on this forum. And I can't stand hypocrisy.

[lkfmdc]

Fu-Pow, I'm sure they have a public library even in your god forsaken neck of the woods, go and look up the NY Daily News or NY Newsweek from 1982... Use either "Chan Tai San" or "Chen Rui Tai" and the articles will pop up.... I'm not at the library at this moment and if you really are curious it won't take you more than 15 minutes to find

Ask your sifu about the Toi San District, Canton (Guangdong province) annual almanac.... it is a well known over seas publication (ie for Chinese living in America).... get the issue for 1950 and you'll see CTS took third in the provincical free sparring competition that year. Behind Lei Fei San and the Hsing Yi guy. Sifu had a copy of it, but he passed away and I don't have all his possessions. But if you really are curious

You might also want to consider, are all these famous Sifu lying? Is that your story? Most of the stories we posted came to us from the likes of Lee Koon Hung (love to see you call him a liar!), Chan Poi, Wai Hong, Tai Yim, YC Wong, etc...

Contact the Hong Luk in Toronto and ask them how CTS was recieved when he returned to China.

The Chinese government put CTS in a movie called "China's Living Treasures". It sold in major Chinatowns in the US for years.... ask Carl Albright on the Mantis forum because I know for a fact he has a copy

If he wasn't an accomplished martial artist, how did he get appointed coach of the Canton wushu team? want a source, ask Bow Sim Mak.

Why did the KMT lodge in NY hold a banquet in CTS' honor? Just fer fun :rolleyes:

You obviously would like to believe these stories aren't true, because it would make you feel better... but there are plenty of independent sources. You're burying your head in the sand here...

[SifuAbel]

FP,
I think your logic is faulty. There aren't that many degrees of separation.

If a person witnessed this first hand, then its tesimony not hearsay. What these guys witnessed their Teacher do is not anecdotal. Its not 5 generations later. And all those poeple who witnessed his doing in china fall under the same category.

As far as DR's teachers recounting of his life to Dave and company, thats also testimony.

These aren't wuxia ledgends of a thousand years ago.

[Fu-Pow]

Fu-Pow, I'm sure they have a public library even in your god forsaken neck of the woods, go and look up the NY Daily News or NY Newsweek from 1982... Use either "Chan Tai San" or "Chen Rui Tai" and the articles will pop up.... I'm not at the library at this moment and if you really are curious it won't take you more than 15 minutes to find

Ask your sifu about the Toi San District, Canton (Guangdong province) annual almanac.... it is a well known over seas publication (ie for Chinese living in America).... get the issue for 1950 and you'll see CTS took third in the provincical free sparring competition that year. Behind Lei Fei San and the Hsing Yi guy. Sifu had a copy of it, but he passed away and I don't have all his possessions. But if you really are curious

Yeah, I think they have a library somewhere "out here.";) Anyways, I don't really care either way, but perhaps Anthony would interested to do so.




You might also want to consider, are all these famous Sifu lying? Is that your story? Most of the stories we posted came to us from the likes of Lee Koon Hung (love to see you call him a liar!), Chan Poi, Wai Hong, Tai Yim, YC Wong, etc...

Contact the Hong Luk in Toronto and ask them how CTS was recieved when he returned to China.

I would really prefer that you not bring any people in my lineage into your arguments, including Lee Koon Hung or Tat Mau Wong. However, I think I already addressed the fact that just because a lot of people say it. Doesn't mean its true. Not that to say that it is their intention to lie but people often repeat things because they are "common knowledge." If you know how to manipulate that system then people will believe all kinds of things about you. Not saying that CTS did but how do we, the uninitiated, know that?




The Chinese government put CTS in a movie called "China's Living Treasures". It sold in major Chinatowns in the US for years.... ask Carl Albright on the Mantis forum because I know for a fact he has a copy

If he wasn't an accomplished martial artist, how did he get appointed coach of the Canton wushu team? want a source, ask Bow Sim Mak.

There you go Anthony.




Why did the KMT lodge in NY hold a banquet in CTS' honor? Just fer fun :rolleyes:

You obviously would like to believe these stories aren't true, because it would make you feel better... but there are plenty of independent sources. You're burying your head in the sand here...

Actually, my feeling don't have a whole lot to do with it. I only have an interest in what Immanuel Kant called, The Beautiful, The Good and The True. "Beautiful" stories make a good read but we should not mistake them for "The Truth." And one should be able to discern what is Beautiful from what is True, because even a lie can be a beautiful lie at that.

Peace

[Fu-Pow]

FP,
I think your logic is faulty. There aren't that many degrees of separation.

If a person witnessed this first hand, then its tesimony not hearsay. What these guys witnessed their Teacher do is not anecdotal. Its not 5 generations later. And all those poeple who witnessed his doing in china fall under the same category.

As far as DR's teachers recounting of his life to Dave and company, thats also testimony.

These aren't wuxia ledgends of a thousand years ago.

I see your point. However, the fault in YOUR logic is that I never equated wuxia legends with first person accounts. Your trying to set up a "straw man" argument that I never made so that you can knock it down.

My point is that subjective recollection and opinion is only a piece of the puzzle in historical interpretation. If you ask that we take your recollection or opinion as fact then you must grant others the same leeway....or be a hypocrit.

[hskwarrior]

Where you all seem to fail to realize is that regadless of the stories coming from Chan Tai San's disciples, The Man is no longer with us to take the time and interview him ourselves, so the next best thing when it comes to learning about a certain teacher is to go to his friends and students.

If Chan Tai San's students want to say he built the brooklyn bridge himself, it is up to them to spread that story. The only thing WE have to do is believe it or not believe it. who are we to ever dispute passed Master's backgrounds.

I haven't heard the chan tai san clan saying that their gung fu was better than anyones, or chan tai san was the only real deal, or the only gung fu teacher who knew how to use it. What i have seen is they are so proud of Chan Tai San they exclude others, but that comes with the territory.

My only problem is that people are attempting to dishonor his name by questioning if he was this or that. I believe it is because we are all so very proud of our own lineages that we cannot see the greatness of anothers. But i have stepped back and said to myself although i'd never really heard of him in my lifetime, it doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the chance to have his story told.

what they should do is try not to force it on others because naturally the proud will resist and raise questions, but for those who wish to learn about a great sifu, just make it available to them, much to the way Dave keeps referring me to the thread when i have my own questions about his sifu.

ok, gotta go to chinatown now, peace

hsk

[Fu-Pow]

My only problem is that people are attempting to dishonor his name by questioning if he was this or that.
hsk

Is to question something/someone, to dishonor it/them? I'm not making the logical connection, (which is why I believe we have butted heads in past over historical issues, Frank).

As Siddharta Gautama said (and you can choose to believe this whether you are buddhist or not)

"Rely not on the teacher/person, but on the teaching. Rely not on the words of the teaching, but on the spirit of the words. Rely not on theory, but on experience. Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."
--The Buddha

Peace.

[Green Cloud]

Fu Pow thanks for sharing that saying, I havent been reading up lately on the teachings of siddharta. But is you were the buda youd have to questin that saying also. All I'm saying is that you are over intelectualizing these stories about CTS. In the past I've discussed ethics and it has always been my understanding that most Martial Artist's are ethical people espesialy Kung Fu people. So what is the problem are you calling all these sifu's liars. Here is the problem with over intelectualizing something, by the time you figure at how to intercept a lap choi with a chop choi youve already been hit. As far as I'm concerned if you can't trust an entire comunity of Sifu's than why should they trust you?? What master wants to teach a student who constantly qusetions his master. Thats just time consuming. Why ask the question in the first place if youre going to question the answere.

[Green Cloud]

It's not that my spelling sucks but really my typing since I usualy type in the dark. Hey what can I say I'd turn the lights on but have you seen the gas prices lately. I got to conserve somehow. Hey frank I think your right on the money. Thanks

[htowndragon]

I read chinese, can you get mr parella to put up some of those chinese articles? or email it to me? htowndragon@gmail.com

thanks! 3Q

[Fu-Pow]

Fu Pow thanks for sharing that saying, I havent been reading up lately on the teachings of siddharta. But is you were the buda youd have to questin that saying also.

Good point. It's not to say that there is no truth. Only that we should question that what is truth and what is not.



All I'm saying is that you are over intelectualizing these stories about CTS. In the past I've discussed ethics and it has always been my understanding that most Martial Artist's are ethical people espesialy Kung Fu people.

That's pretty laughable and, ironically, wasn't it your SiHing Dave who just spent his valuable time explaining how martial artists were mostly drunks, gamblers, charlatans, vagabonds, hustlers, etc.

Also

argumentum ad populum -- This fallacy occurs when an argument panders to popular passion or sentiment. When, for instance, a politician exclaims in a debate that his opponent "is out of step with the beliefs of everyone in the audience," he/she is committing the fallacy. The legitimacy of a statement depends not on its popularity, but on its truth credentials.



So what is the problem are you calling all these sifu's liars.

No, but I think you guys are trying to make it sound like that's what I'm saying, especially as it relates to people in my own lineage (ie Lee Koon Hung and Tat Mau Wong). You can tell a lie without ever INTENDING to tell a lie...that is, inadvertently. There's a big difference.



Here is the problem with over intelectualizing something, by the time you figure at how to intercept a lap choi with a chop choi youve already been hit.

Well, you're talking about history vs. kung fu and one is an intellectual pursuit and the other is a kinesthetic pursuit so your analogy doesn't really hold up.



As far as I'm concerned if you can't trust an entire comunity of Sifu's than why should they trust you??

Huh?

non sequitur ("it does not follow") -- A statement that does not logically follow from what preceded it; a conclusion that does not follow from the premises.




What master wants to teach a student who constantly qusetions his master. Thats just time consuming. Why ask the question in the first place if youre going to question the answere.

Again, it seems like your saying that learning history and learning kung fu are the same thing. I'd never question my master's understanding of kung fu because I've seen it, felt it , touched it, tasted it (ok, not really tasted it.) But as far as history goes I DO question him. He's a kung fu master after all, not a saint, not a sage or, for that matter, a professor of history

Once again, I don't really care if CTS or you or Dave is or isn't telling the truth. I'm trying to help out the starter of this thread whose questions have been evaded.

PEACE.

[Green Cloud]

Fu Pow you know that you sound kind of like a robot. Danger will robinson that does not compute thats ilogical. I'm a little confused what do you do for a living are you a historian. Who is your teacher?? just curious is it lee kwoon hung or tat ma wong??

[Green Cloud]

Fu pow If you look at a cop choi it's exactly the opposite of a lap choi. Both tec. are the same in a parallel universe. Ahh is that an intellectual persuite or a kinesthetic persuit?? I just figured out how to talk to you in sudo. Wow it almost sounds like I know what I'm talking about. By the way how are those stances comming along. In that form are ya being intel or kinest. Comom Fu Pow how is someone supposed have a conversation with you when you use that sudo intelectual garbage. Whats the name of that form please dont tell it's the moifa kune. I'm just kiding with ya figured I'd just mess with ya for a bit.

[Green Cloud]

Fu poop by the way I'm not stupid. In youre sudo intel. bull you subtuly imply that Ross is my Si Hing. Infact he is my hing dai we were both bi seed at the same time. I have a question have you learned how to fight using your choy lee fut tecq. or do sit around and trying to figure out what intel. or kin. ??

[Green Cloud]

Someone help me but I can't stop watching Fu pow's form. Is it that the stage is so small, is that why he is moving so slowly??? You know plum flower is not supposed to be flowery. The plum flower is a strong tancious flower that grows and blosoms even in the snow. Or are you doing that lady style stuf?? I just have to ask if you are so inqisitive than how come you havent asked your teacher why your stance work is so week. But realy dont mind me I'm just being serious.

[Green Cloud]

fu pow when you are doing a haut pan chop how come you dont turn your fist up side down or are ya not doin a chop choi. That quest was serious but in my last posts I was just playing with ya. Just did it cause I couldn't figure out what the hell you were talking about. So I figure I'd spatter a bunch of jiberish to. My point is that if going to talk do it from the heart don't recite the sutra. Peace

[lkfmdc]

To put a little perspective on Fu Pow... he accused me once of lying about my master's degree... when I posted a copy of it he mumbled something to the effect that anyone can make up one of those :rolleyes:

[Green Cloud]

hey dave did ya ever get your hands on that tape of sifu when he was 40 I need a copy.

[Brad]

I'm trying to help out the starter of this thread whose questions have been evaded.
Giving the names & dates of fairly specific publications isn't evading questions...

Chan Tai San isn't some old semi-mythical master that lived 300 years ago, he was alive in the 20th century. In addition to information from people still living that actually knew him well, there's nurmerous published sources of information about the man. His background is going to be about as well documented as you're going to get for a kungfu master...

While I think an online museum of the guy would be pretty **** cool, his students don't have to prove anything. David's given enough clear leads that anyone who really cares could find out plenty with a little bit of highschool level research (and maybe a friend fluent in Chinese).

[Anthony]

'Is to question something/someone, to dishonor it/them? I'm not making the logical connection, "

I don't either. This is why I used an example with two historical figures above. It's nothing more than a pursuit of historical truth. To take it as an insult is purely a personal decision depending on how one chooses to percieve it. If we believe something about Abe Lincoln and some historian doubts it and prooves it wrong, how is that an insult? It isn't.

"Once again, I don't really care if CTS or you or Dave is or isn't telling the truth. I'm trying to help out the starter of this thread whose questions have been evaded.

PEACE."

Thank you. I think that the replies that I've gotten so far are as good as I'm going to get, which is fine. Like I said above somewhere.....life will go on.

There are people here who seem to enjoy butting heads over issues (in fact it seems they go out of their way to do so). I mean take a look at how long some of the arguments on this site last. In particular the one between hskwarrior and Ross. As far as I'm concerned......no thanks....life's too short. Chris said that he has a problem with the way I worded my post. Quite frankly I think I would have gotten the same hostile reaction regardless. I knew it going in but hoped it wouldn't happen. People choose how they want to respond. Either helpful (Green Cloud) or hostile and petty (Ross). That choice is on their shoulders and reflects on them not me. If it can't be discussed peacefully I doubt anything productive will result from exchanging insults for several pages especially with someone I don't know. I don't see how Ross's brattish behavior on this site (that we've all wittnessed) is in any way going to service his teachers memory. He doesn't see that he may be doing more harm than good as his teachers representative here.

This will no doubt trigger an avalanche of insults from him (as is his custom.....and of course, his sidekick Chris will chime in). I suspect Ross gets no respect from anyone who knows him personally (he probably knows this) so he has to brag about himself to a bunch of strangers in hope of getting some respect.

Ross, I hope I'm wrong and you really aren't that pathetic (oh, who am I kidding).

[brothernumber9]

for some of the bonus points, mind you my screen at work is really dark and some of the faces are hard for me to see at the moment.

pic SF2 (from top to bottom left to right)
?, Tom (sifu Goh's student), (hard to see but maybe James Au?), ? , Sean Marshall (sp?), David Ross, Doc Fai Wong?, Mike Parella, YC Wong, ? , Chan Tai San, Anthony Goh, Tai Yim, Andrea, Derek Mimms, Gus?, ?.

pid SF3: (from left to right seating, then standing)
Chan Tai San, Y C Wong, Derek Mimms, Tai Yim, Anthony Goh, Leung Sifu?, ? , Henry Look, B K Frantzis (sp?), John Funk.

[lkfmdc]

I suspect Ross gets no respect from anyone who knows him personally



You suspect incorrectly, but I won't bother correcting you because 1) you don't want to hear the truth and 2) if I do you'll just chalk it up to more "bragging" :rolleyes:

Yup, giant CTS conspiracy here. All these sifu's saying great things about him and perpetuating these stories... or maybe it's just that they are true

[hskwarrior]

in my own defense,

dave ross and my little quarrel was squashed the very same day. the very next morning he translated some things for me. so obviously there is No drama.

but after reading the posts, i feel that based from my own personal knowledge and training in a TCMA and i have the same opinion as shared by many well known CLF sifu around asia that you should never question the background of a master, it is disrespectful, and so you can say im still old fashioned in that sense.

i think its ok to ask questions with the intent to learn about someone, but to ask questions (in a straw man sense) to set him up so you can knock him down is the part im saying is disrespectful. But trying to tear the master apart with your inquiries implies that you think the master is full of sheet.

if you were standing right in front of Chan Tai San and got a glimpse of his abiliities you wouldn't be questioning his legitimacy, you would want to know the history of this great master.

you know, dave, mike, gus and i all started out on the wrong foot. But all this time i have never insulted their sifu. at first i was ****ed because they acted like he was the only master of that callibre. But i think they know now, or maybe all along that's not true. they are just proud to be from one of the more "proven authentic masters" as opposed to commerically and publicly seen ones.

the real deal masters, you know the ones who have actually used their gung fu and survived to tell about it, are the ones usually who stay in the background, like Chan Tai San, Lau Bun and Jew Leong. As they have said in presvious post, if they know then they know!

gotta drop the old lady off at work.

peace.

[Green Cloud]

BRAVO Frank well put, consice and elequent. I couldn't have said it better. See Frank thats why I said everyone should shut up and listen. These guys wont let a guy tell a story. Youre right it's not like we are boasting that sifu CTS was the greatest just one of the greatest kung fu people of his time. People that are demanding documented evidence for these stories ruin it for everyone else it makes me not want to share anything else. Why should I even answere some of these questions. People aren't being inqisitive but conducting an inquesition. This isn't intelegents gathering for the government but just a bunch of guys that are dealing with their Sifu's passing by sharing some stories about CTS and keeping his memory alive. The funny thing is that these guys that are so rude and demanding about asking questions, act a lot humbler when you meet them in person. I guess the pen is mightyer than the sword. In the past Ive pointed out when anyone in the martial arts community tells a story if that person is inacurate eventualy the truth will be discovered since the CMA comunity is so small. I've been at a tounament in Baltimore and the next day read about it on line. The point is some of these questions surperfluess. The truth can be discovered fast. JOY GIN

[hskwarrior]

i also believe that when another master gets some highlight, the people who are out trying to tear down what you guys are trying to build up about Chan Tai San i believe are afraid of being knocked off their perch. Some may even feel that the spot light is being taken away from their sifu's.

What we ALL need to realize is that WE ALL ARE PROUD of our sifu's, and completely believe in them. when that happens it makes it hard to hear someone else speak about how great theirs is. because the spotlight has changed positions.

No matter what, we all should stop for a second to learn something about our martial arts community. Im sure if Chan Tai San was still alive, more and more people would flock to him.

But green cloud, dave, etc, when real masters such as lau bun, Chan Tai san who have similar backgrounds and are both from toi san, whenever people here about the real realism about these masters , some begin to feel as if their histories lay more on the lines of fairytale.

the reason i can say that is im in the process of writing a Lau Bun article, and i've been told that some of his background is too fantastic to believe. To me why is it too fantastic? if it is what it is, then how do we deal with the people who are always the nay sayers... the funny thing about it is when they are proven wrong, they all disappear without ever having to explain their hatred by denying the right to tell our elders/sifu's story.

For example, Lau Bun was an assassin for the hop sing tong and was known to carry throwing darts in his shirt pocket, butterfly knives in his waistband, or even a pair of double steel whips. one time-even with eye witnesses- lau bun killed a rat in the dark with one of his throwing darts and precisely hit its target killing the rat. there were eye witnesses, but try telling that story and instead of absorbing the information everyone says thats fantasy, or not real. Why? because they can't say that about their own teachers.

green cloud, keep telling your sifu's history and forget what 2-3 people have to say. as long as their is a record of his past then his memory will be remembered.
its only a small handfull of people that are hating, so brush them right off of your shoulders like some nasty as dandruff, and do your thing. no matter how right you are, on these forums you will always be wrong because they are all haters.
there are only a few positive people here on this forum and thats a shame.


hsk

[hskwarrior]

Now yes i did say that it is disrespectful to ever question (negatively) a masters background. and just in case if anyone wants to bring up the fact about my dislike of Doc Fai Wong is that i am closer to him than he realizes and if he claims something i can either back it up or say he's wrong.

my dislike for him goes back to the 1980's and he has said some negative things in magazine article in the past about lau bun. nothing too negative but unfounded however.

for those who openly question another masters background in hopes of trying to debunct him, i can tell you have never really been involved with the chinese community for long. If you have you would know about what they consider disrespectful.

most of you here act like you've never truly dealt with any real chinese community. and for us gwai lo that have knows how hard it is to break through that tough chinatown exterior. whatever....im just rambling.

im beginning to realize that no matter what, these forums are useless when it comes to trying to share some history on whatever without nut cases coming out of the woodwork.

peace

sorry for rambling on like this.

[CLFNole]

Question for the CTS students.

Just a bit off topic here but I was wondering if you could answer a question for me. I am a student of Lee Koon Hung and Li Siu Hung and one afternoon I was practicing in the kwoon by myself and a short stocky guy came in and wanted to buy some things. He went on to say he was from NY and studied lama. I asked if he was a student of CTS and he said yes and that Chan Sifu had passed the system on to him. I don't personally know any of you but I had heard of Sifu Ross, Parella, Venture and Inn...(can't remeber how to spell it and I am Italian too). The guy said he was a police officer.

I was wondering if he is one of you who posts here or if not do you know who he is because I have never seen him before at tournaments or other events?

In regards to stories of your sifu and proof, I think we all have different stories of our sifus. I have quite a few about my sifu but I would rather not post them becuase you know what happens afterwards. ;) We should all respect one and other if we believe stories or not. None of us were there so who is to say and its not like it has an effect on anyones training. I like Frank, Ross and Green Cloud believe in being true to your sifu. There is nothing wrong with questioning things from time to time that is human nature. I mean if sifu told me he invented the internet rather than Al Gore, mmm....:D

Peace.

Peace.

[lkfmdc]

Because Chan Tai San was so famous and respected, we have no shortage of people claiming to represent him. Some studied for short periods of time, a few never met the man!

In the 1990's when Sifu Chan traveled the country, Ventura, Mike Parrella, Gus Kapros, Chris, Innocenzi and I all at some point or another were with him and/or helped in his demonstrations. We were the "core".. A few others were adopted and very close to sifu, yet you won't hear them spouting silly claims much either..

If anyone tells you they are the sole inheritor or the most senior, they are BS'ing you....

For the record, Stephen H Laurette met Chan Tai San before either Ventura or I, in fact he introduced us to SIfu Chan (read the Chan Tai San story thread)... Laurette continued to be more closely affiliated with his 7 Star Mantis, but he would be more senior than Ventura and I

We also have a Si-Hing who teaches the On Leong. YOu wont' find him walking around bragging about his affiliations with Chan Tai San

I have an idea who that person was, but let's just say, if he told you the system was passed onto to him, he might also sell you a nice bridge in Brooklyn :rolleyes:

[Fu-Pow]

To put a little perspective on Fu Pow... he accused me once of lying about my master's degree... when I posted a copy of it he mumbled something to the effect that anyone can make up one of those :rolleyes:

Well, since YOU brought it up, I don't think you did post a copy of your master's degree, I think your student ID or something. But whatever, you don't have to post it, I don't really care if you have your master's degree or not. It's water under the bridge.

[Fu-Pow]

fu pow when you are doing a haut pan chop how come you dont turn your fist up side down or are ya not doin a chop choi. That quest was serious but in my last posts I was just playing with ya. Just did it cause I couldn't figure out what the hell you were talking about. So I figure I'd spatter a bunch of jiberish to. My point is that if going to talk do it from the heart don't recite the sutra. Peace

Basically, I'm not really gonna take this or your other criticisms of my form too seriously unless you're going to show me a video of yourself doing Choy Lay Fut. Its the digital age, I'm sure you have a recent tape of yourself doing something...so digitize it and post it somewhere. No more excuses.

As to this particular criticism, I don't know what a haut pan chaap is? In CLF as I know it we have a Yum Chaap and a Yeung Chaap. Yeung Chaap is with the thumb up and Yum Chaap is with the thumb down.

The form I'm doing is known as Baat Gwa Saam or Heart of the Baat Gwa and doesn't have any Yeung Chaap. The Yum Chaap is a corkscrew type motion. If you over rotate the Yum Chaap then you lift up the shoulder too much and the whole thing becomes disconnected and you risk dislocating your shoulder. I know because I practice hit the dummy and the 100lb bag with my Chaap Chui. If you're not aligned....ouch!

BTW, on a totally unrelated note. Would you mind using paragraphs, the way you put everything in one paragraphy makes it very hard to read.

[CLFNole]

Sifu Ross:

I know BS when I hear it (I am originally from NY also) but I wasn't sure if he was someone here on the forum. He was a short stocky guy and mentioned he was a police officer. He kind of looked like the wrestler the Iranian Sheik from WWW fame.

Peace.

[iron_silk]

Good point. It's not to say that there is no truth. Only that we should question that what is truth and what is not.



That's pretty laughable and, ironically, wasn't it your SiHing Dave who just spent his valuable time explaining how martial artists were mostly drunks, gamblers, charlatans, vagabonds, hustlers, etc.

Also

argumentum ad populum -- This fallacy occurs when an argument panders to popular passion or sentiment. When, for instance, a politician exclaims in a debate that his opponent "is out of step with the beliefs of everyone in the audience," he/she is committing the fallacy. The legitimacy of a statement depends not on its popularity, but on its truth credentials.



No, but I think you guys are trying to make it sound like that's what I'm saying, especially as it relates to people in my own lineage (ie Lee Koon Hung and Tat Mau Wong). You can tell a lie without ever INTENDING to tell a lie...that is, inadvertently. There's a big difference.



Well, you're talking about history vs. kung fu and one is an intellectual pursuit and the other is a kinesthetic pursuit so your analogy doesn't really hold up.




Huh?

non sequitur ("it does not follow") -- A statement that does not logically follow from what preceded it; a conclusion that does not follow from the premises.




Again, it seems like your saying that learning history and learning kung fu are the same thing. I'd never question my master's understanding of kung fu because I've seen it, felt it , touched it, tasted it (ok, not really tasted it.) But as far as history goes I DO question him. He's a kung fu master after all, not a saint, not a sage or, for that matter, a professor of history

Once again, I don't really care if CTS or you or Dave is or isn't telling the truth. I'm trying to help out the starter of this thread whose questions have been evaded.

PEACE.

Fu Pow if it makes you feel better I think I understand what you posted.

In fact the points are fairly clearly made.

I don't think it is pretentious at all...except for the religious quotes...other than that is.

[Green Cloud]

Sifu Ross:

I know BS when I hear it (I am originally from NY also) but I wasn't sure if he was someone here on the forum. He was a short stocky guy and mentioned he was a police officer. He kind of looked like the wrestler the Iranian Sheik from WWW fame.

Peace.
It sounds lke a guy that I bi seed years ago. A very devious person who was kicked out my kwoon. Was his name Cleve. Not to get into it but he was endited for forcing one of his informants. Hea also stole Jew chuuns beads from sifu.

Onother one of these guys is another fony balony fakes that I used to teach and he is a bald guy. This guy was known as Gong tai lo (baldy). His name is Anthony Tardy an absolute fraud. He runs a school in Staten Island and he claimes to be an inheretor of lama pai. He was also thrown out of my org. Funny thing is both these guys never showd up at my sifu's funeral. Both these guys used me to get close to my Sifu so they could use his name for profit. If I see either one of them I'l hert them both.

[CLFNole]

Green Cloud:

I think it may have been the 2nd one because I kind of recall him mentioning Staten Island.

By the way I used to live close to Wading River in Baiting Hollow.

Peace.

[lkfmdc]

It's sort of strange, how many "inheritors of Lama Pai" can't seem to even do the basic techniques correctly :rolleyes:

[CLFNole]

It is the same with CLF. I have seen people who claim to have learned from Lee Koon Hung and when you watch them you can realized they followed one of his books. I think there was a guy teaching in North Carolina who claimed to follow him here in Florida; however no one has a school outside of Florida at present and I know all of his instructors since I was one of them.

One thing I have learned about kung fu over the past 13 years is, it always seems to attract the weirdest of the weird and the craziest of the crazy. I mean we all are a bit off to do what we do but then the guy with the flute on his back in the frog button pajamas walks into the kwoon.

[hskwarrior]

clfnole,

that's funny. In oakland where sifu troy dunwood teaches at the park, there is this black dude who straightened out his hair and parted it down the middle and always wears shades, and that black outfit with the white frog buttons.

I can't call it why he does what he does, but this guy is the living proof that Bruce LeeRoy really does exist.

I don't know the guy, but he is stupid strange to me.


peace

[CLFNole]

We were at a local tournament one time. It was more of a karate tournament and we showed up because they wanted us to perform in the night time demo and it was good practice for some of the students at the time.

Anyhow, there were two guys just like you described wandering around doing all of this wack made up stuff from watching way to many Shaw Brothers movies. I did this to however I was like 13 years old. Anyway they come up to us and start asking us about the "golden ****roach" style and some other crazy arse sheet. Li Siu Hung steps in and is like "no problem, you come my school I teach you the chicken style and the ant style". Joe and I are about to bust a gut listening to this and watching these two idiots get more excited than a kid on christmas. But somethings never change.

[Green Cloud]

Basically, I'm not really gonna take this or your other criticisms of my form too seriously unless you're going to show me a video of yourself doing Choy Lay Fut. Its the digital age, I'm sure you have a recent tape of yourself doing something...so digitize it and post it somewhere. No more excuses.

As to this particular criticism, I don't know what a haut pan chaap is? In CLF as I know it we have a Yum Chaap and a Yeung Chaap. Yeung Chaap is with the thumb up and Yum Chaap is with the thumb down.

The form I'm doing is known as Baat Gwa Saam or Heart of the Baat Gwa and doesn't have any Yeung Chaap. The Yum Chaap is a corkscrew type motion. If you over rotate the Yum Chaap then you lift up the shoulder too much and the whole thing becomes disconnected and you risk dislocating your shoulder. I know because I practice hit the dummy and the 100lb bag with my Chaap Chui. If you're not aligned....ouch!

BTW, on a totally unrelated note. Would you mind using paragraphs, the way you put everything in one paragraphy makes it very hard to read.
Hey Fu Pow I told you just a day or so ago that I was going to post some Vids.


As I mentioned in the past my inernet savy is not that great and I'm still learning how to get things done. I don,t know if your aware but I have 3 full time studios two of wich I run my self.

I'm not braging just pointing out the obvious, I'm very busy and barely have the time to chat with you guys. Between runind a buisness full time that is and training my students and giving my wife some time too your request will have to take a back seat.


As far as the North East Coast I'ts my Clf that represent's in driving force. For the Past 10 years it's the Green Cloud kwoon that dominates at these tournaments.


At the Wong fei hung tourney this year my school to home the championship Flag. At wong's 2004 Tourney in Baltimore it was Green Cloud that came in top the Wong's top ten. we CAME IN # THREE TO BE EXACT.


My rep. Speaks for its self I don't need to boast. So if you think that I'm goin to spend my valuable time puting together Video pics just for you your sadly mistaken. I don't even have time to update my web site. Or by the way at Wong's 2004 I did an Iron body demo in where I randomly selected one of Hoy Lee's Spears. Not to many americans that get do that. I did that as a tribute to Chan Tai San since most people remember his Performances displaying his Iron body. Any way I'l put some recent pics of some of my students since there all better than you anyway you'l brobably find them enteraining.

[lkfmdc]

Yup, Gus and his school have kept alive CTS' strong forms tradition, he's a major force up here in tournaments

[Fu-Pow]

Hey Fu Pow I told you just a day or so ago that I was going to post some Vids.


As I mentioned in the past my inernet savy is not that great and I'm still learning how to get things done. I don,t know if your aware but I have 3 full time studios two of wich I run my self.

I'm not braging just pointing out the obvious, I'm very busy and barely have the time to chat with you guys. Between runind a buisness full time that is and training my students and giving my wife some time too your request will have to take a back seat.


As far as the North East Coast I'ts my Clf that represent's in driving force. For the Past 10 years it's the Green Cloud kwoon that dominates at these tournaments.


At the Wong fei hung tourney this year my school to home the championship Flag. At wong's 2004 Tourney in Baltimore it was Green Cloud that came in top the Wong's top ten. we CAME IN # THREE TO BE EXACT.


My rep. Speaks for its self I don't need to boast. So if you think that I'm goin to spend my valuable time puting together Video pics just for you your sadly mistaken. I don't even have time to update my web site. Or by the way at Wong's 2004 I did an Iron body demo in where I randomly selected one of Hoy Lee's Spears. Not to many americans that get do that. I did that as a tribute to Chan Tai San since most people remember his Performances displaying his Iron body. Any way I'l put some recent pics of some of my students since there all better than you anyway you'l brobably find them enteraining.


Didn't I say no more excuses? That's like a whole page of excuses. Surely with SO MANY students you have at least one that could do this for you?

Until you have some recent video up of yourself doing Choy Lay Fut....not from 20 yrs ago, not your students, not lama, not hung gar or whatever, I don't think you are in any position to criticize my Choy Lay Fut.

Your more than welcome to, I mean its a free forum, but I'm calling bull$hit until I see some evidence that you even know what you're talking about.

[hasayfu]

'Is to question something/someone, to dishonor it/them? I'm not making the logical connection, "

I don't either. This is why I used an example with two historical figures above. It's nothing more than a pursuit of historical truth. To take it as an insult is purely a personal decision depending on how one chooses to percieve it. If we believe something about Abe Lincoln and some historian doubts it and prooves it wrong, how is that an insult? It isn't.
.

I usually stay out of these types of discusions but I can't let this one go unanswered.

As you state, a historian that doubts will PROVE IT WRONG. He doesn't ask the author to provide proof. Now he might call BS and say the proof is not sufficient but if so, he is clearly questioning the veracity of the account and the accounter. He is not "seeking out truth" but seeking to discredit the account.


Quite frankly I think I would have gotten the same hostile reaction regardless. I knew it going in but hoped it wouldn't happen. People choose how they want to respond.


Possibly, but if you had simply asked for supporting evidence you may have gotten it without the spectre of a hidden agenda.

The way you worded it is similar to asking the question, "So Anthony, when was the last time you masterbated in a public restoom?" Regardless of the answer, it puts you on the defensive.

I really have nothing against questioning stories but it's a pet peeve when people stand behind the "freedom to question without reprecussions." Be respectful or do some homework. If not, just accept the stories and move on.

don't get me started on Mo Duk...

OK, back to bickering about Ross :)

[TenTigers]

Ross-Sifus said,"Yup, Gus and his school have kept alive CTS' strong forms tradition, he's a major force up here in tournaments"
__________________

Green Cloud also has a strong rep for being able to throw down. Hard. When we go to a tourney and see Gus's guys, I say to my guys, "Ok, we're fighting today!"
There aren't many schools I say this about.

[Anthony]

uggghh!!!

Just when I think I'm out!......They pull me back in!

Youre points are noted but I think they've been addressed already. I don't wan't to go in circles with the same topic ad nauseum.

In general, I think we should (on this forum) give each other the benefit of the doubt. If something sounds like it might be offensive (hey...sometimes it just happens), ask the poster more questions. Fighting fire with fire (especially here) is a waste of time. Much of this discussion revolved around respect for past Masters. Well, lets respect each other as well. Arguing can be fun when youre a kid...."I know you are but what am I?...." But, we're all adults here. When you attatch a meaning to what I say and then judge me, youre wasting your time and disrespecting me as well. Gus and hsk......you're both over-reacting. Furthermore youre not listening when I tell you that my intention is not to disrespect or debunk. I would have to be insane to think that CTS's students got together and made up the entire CTS stories thread. So I'm not calling anyone a liar.

Remember, when we post:

We cant see each others facial expressions, can't hear each other's tone of voice, can't see each others posture. In person we can read each others intentions better. Green Cloud, I think this is why people seem to be more polite in person rather than on a dicsussion forum (in person it's one on one, here it's on on 10). I don't think it's necessarily because they're hiding behind a monitor.

I did get some good info and I'm thankfull. Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

But, we're all adults here.

On that point...you are dead wrong.




I would have to be insane to think that CTS's students got together and made up the entire CTS stories thread. So I'm not calling anyone a liar.



I don't think anyone is calling anybody a liar. At least I'm not. My point is that you've got to question this stuff that people tell you, write on this forum, write in magazine articles, etc. That's called healthy skepticism.

What's ironic to me, however, as well as amusing.... is how much CTS' students seem to be able to dish "a dose of reality" but they can't seem to take any of that back....that is, without turning in it into some kind of showdown. It's easy to criticize but it takes a bigger man to 1) put himself out their for scrutiny 2) be able to laugh at himself.

It really is the worst kind of grasping on to the ego when you can't do that.

*laughs to self*

[Green Cloud]

Ross-Sifus said,"Yup, Gus and his school have kept alive CTS' strong forms tradition, he's a major force up here in tournaments"
__________________

Green Cloud also has a strong rep for being able to throw down. Hard. When we go to a tourney and see Gus's guys, I say to my guys, "Ok, we're fighting today!"
There aren't many schools I say this about. hey rick I was wondering when I'd hear from ya. Thanks for your compliment but If I remember correctly some of my guys have been taken out by your guys too.

[Green Cloud]

uggghh!!!

Just when I think I'm out!......They pull me back in!

Youre points are noted but I think they've been addressed already. I don't wan't to go in circles with the same topic ad nauseum.

In general, I think we should (on this forum) give each other the benefit of the doubt. If something sounds like it might be offensive (hey...sometimes it just happens), ask the poster more questions. Fighting fire with fire (especially here) is a waste of time. Much of this discussion revolved around respect for past Masters. Well, lets respect each other as well. Arguing can be fun when youre a kid...."I know you are but what am I?...." But, we're all adults here. When you attatch a meaning to what I say and then judge me, youre wasting your time and disrespecting me as well. Gus and hsk......you're both over-reacting. Furthermore youre not listening when I tell you that my intention is not to disrespect or debunk. I would have to be insane to think that CTS's students got together and made up the entire CTS stories thread. So I'm not calling anyone a liar.

Remember, when we post:

We cant see each others facial expressions, can't hear each other's tone of voice, can't see each others posture. In person we can read each others intentions better. Green Cloud, I think this is why people seem to be more polite in person rather than on a dicsussion forum (in person it's one on one, here it's on on 10). I don't think it's necessarily because they're hiding behind a monitor.

I did get some good info and I'm thankfull. Peace.
Anthony dont sweat it, This a good thread, The problem with talkimg on a forum like this one is that you have old school people mixed with JCl's (Jhonny come lately). Kung Fu is steeped in Tradition, and well I feel there is old school people like my self that follow and live by these traditions. Most of these traditions are based on srong and ethical values. That why you might find some people are getting angry.

Sometimes a disturbing question is answered with a disturbing response. And that's ok. Keep this in mind my job is not to pass the time but to teach kung fu and it's traditions. Your point about being on line as oposed to in person is a good one, but what would it be like if we followed the proper decorum on line as if we were in person?? After all when it comes to kung fu, theres is fighting and then there is traditional values. with age comes wisdom. You'l see years from now when you have done kung fu for a while you'l feel compelled to put people in check. I feel that all in all this thread has started a good debate Old school or new school.

[Green Cloud]

Didn't I say no more excuses? That's like a whole page of excuses. Surely with SO MANY students you have at least one that could do this for you?

Until you have some recent video up of yourself doing Choy Lay Fut....not from 20 yrs ago, not your students, not lama, not hung gar or whatever, I don't think you are in any position to criticize my Choy Lay Fut.

Your more than welcome to, I mean its a free forum, but I'm calling bull$hit until I see some evidence that you even know what you're talking about.
Fu pow I'm not making any exuses, Your just not my intelectual match so your not going to bait me into showing you my stuff on line. Why would you even put your self out there when You move so badly. Although I respect the content. I never had do advertize my skill, I just let my rep do the talking for me. not to say that in the comming months that there wont be more stuff on my sight like video pics.

By the way who is your Sifu?? and are you a historian or something??? What do you do for a living. These are questions that I asked but you never answered. Just trying to get to know who I'm taking to. Frank share a bunch of stuff with me thats why I respect him, how about you. And oh yea your more than welcome to visit my kwoon in N.Y. and I'd be more than glad to show you some Choy lee fut.

[htowndragon]

I Want To Hear More Stories

Wo Xiang Ting Gu Shi!

[hskwarrior]

forgive my ignorance but somebody please tell me what TTT means?

[Green Cloud]

Years ago I met some guy who owned a few chinese restaurants I forget his name it was many beers ago. Aparantly he grew up in Toisan and clamed to know CTS. In his youth he followed Chan Tai San around as many other kids that looked up to him. I recall Sifu Poo Yi told me he was one of those kids too. he recalled when my sifu used give him money from time to time to help him out. Back to the restaurant owner. I had met this man threw my old student Cleve better known as cay le fu.


Cleave befriended him as a patron in his restaurant. Anyway upon meeting this man when he visited my school, He tells me that there was incident that he witnessed when sifu was with Jew chuun.

The story goes like this Sifu Chan was walking with his Sifu Jew Chuun when all of a suden they were surounded by an angry mob of people that wanted to kill them. I guess it was something like a linch mob. Now jew chan being a monk and all didn't want to kill anyone but these guys wanted to kill them.

So jJew Chuun turns to a rock wall and plunges his fingers into the wall pulling out a cobble stone and crushes it with his hands. The crowd stops their advance, Jew Chun stares at the crowd and sais," the next person that advances toward us will be crushed like this stone. I think the shok and awe lasted a few seconds till one guy lunges at Sifu CTS.

My sifu side steped and intercepted the asailant's atack and then struk him with an open hand and a tiger clawing motion pulled his intestines out from his body. Chan Tai San then turned to the crowd and said who's next! That was enouf to disperse the crowd.

Now before everyone ruins this story by questioning its validity I can' t prove it, but think about it what would a complete stranger have to benefit by telling me this story?? Ask Sifu Poo Yi he's got even more stories.

[chud]

That sounds like something right out of the kung fu movies, pulling out his intestines! Wicked!!!


Hskwarrior: TTT stands for "To The Top", it means that you are posting with the intention of bumping the thread back up to the top of the forum (some people simply type "bump").

[hskwarrior]

forgive my, i really feel ignorant here, to the top, is that a good thing?

im sorry, i still new to all this lingo, but **** i feel retarded right about now.

[5thBrother]

forgive my, i really feel ignorant here, to the top, is that a good thing?

im sorry, i still new to all this lingo, but **** i feel retarded right about now.


ttt - to the top. just pushes a thread back to the top of the list and keeps it in sight...

the same as a post... but if u have know input and are too lazy or rushed to type sumthing like "these are kewl stories can u say some more etc" or "im interested in this topic any more info" u can just type "ttt" :D

[hskwarrior]

yay,


i don't feel retarded anymore.

thanks for your help. that's cool.


hsk

[Fu-Pow]

The story goes like this Sifu Chan was walking with his Sifu Jew Chuun when all of a suden they were surounded by an angry mob of people that wanted to kill them. I guess it was something like a linch mob. Now jew chan being a monk and all didn't want to kill anyone but these guys wanted to kill them.

So jJew Chuun turns to a rock wall and plunges his fingers into the wall pulling out a cobble stone and crushes it with his hands. The crowd stops their advance, Jew Chun stares at the crowd and sais," the next person that advances toward us will be crushed like this stone. I think the shok and awe lasted a few seconds till one guy lunges at Sifu CTS.

My sifu side steped and intercepted the asailant's atack and then struk him with an open hand and a tiger clawing motion pulled his intestines out from his body. Chan Tai San then turned to the crowd and said who's next! That was enouf to disperse the crowd.

Now before everyone ruins this story by questioning its validity I can' t prove it, but think about it what would a complete stranger have to benefit by telling me this story?? Ask Sifu Poo Yi he's got even more stories.

Uh huh....and chi blasts fly out of my a$$.

[hskwarrior]

oooh, you bout' ta get itttttt!:rolleyes:

[Green Cloud]

Dude how come you never have anything inteligent to ad. You have the least to say, but yet manage to post silly coments. I know youre mad at me for critisizing your form the bat ga sam, by the way how does that translate to the heart of the bat ga. Sam means three and bat ga ( ba gwua) means 8 triagram. Not trying to correct you just wondering if there is another name for the form. By the way I already apologized for my harsh critisism of your form, but you continue to post Nonsense. How am I supposed to take you seriously.

I have asked you several questions about your self like who your teacher is and what your role in your kwoon is, but you refuse to reply. Yet you demand video footage of me. Please don't be mad. If you look back at some of the threads you were upset about The cts threads and demanded that we stop talking about him and I told you to shut your pie hole. I explained in my comment that you set me off. Even after I tried to play nice you kept on comming back with stupid coments.

Naturaly being that I was rased in the hood when I was younger I learned to snap (responding quickly with a joke when someone tryes to make fun.) Relax dude the truth is the form you did isn't bad at all. I told you that and explaned that I was only reacting to your neagtive coments. I realize after I took another look at that form that it was a real form and the content was good. I also noticed that youre wearing a yellow sash wich means your a beginner or beg. intermidiate or something.

In that case your pretty good altough you can use some work on playing that form. Your transitions are a little weak you need to work on you Ding sam bo but all in all it's good.

When playing that form you could also add a little more power when doing a finishing move. Look I think if youre going to display something on line put your best footage on there, don't set your self up for Critisism.

Anyway snapping is snapping and I'l stop. I realize sometimes that my words are like daggers and they hert so I'm sorry. Ask anyone that knows me my jokes are even better than my kung fu.

The truth is I like to know who I'm talking to and so far you have posted nothing worth while. Oh yea except for that cruel footage with the mantis eatin taht poor cute mouse wich I thought was cruel and tasteless.

Anyway rather than acting like a brat demanding that we stop telling CTS stories, maybee we can hear some stories about your sifu or his sifu's sifu. Lets not forgett that people requested to have the CTS storiess TTT. My only goal on this forum is to share some stories and to hear some stories, and to get to know other Kung Fu people.

[lkfmdc]

"Chi" in common Chinese usage means "gas" as in "chi sui" = soda, or carbonated/gas water

So I have no doubt that Chi flies out of Fu Pow's butt on a regular basis :rolleyes:

For what it is worth, I remember the story differently. The crowd surrounded Jyu Chyuhn, who pulled a loose brick out of a wall and smacked it into two. Smacking bricks into pieces is something I have personally seen Chan Tai San do perhaps a hundred times, as all of sifu's studnets have. Regular old bricks, often stolen from construction sites when we were too cheap to buy any for the demo's... Anyhoo, having smacked the brick in half, Sifu Jyu Chyuhn asked if anyone wanted to be the brick next...

(no wires, mirrors or camera tricks were used in the making of this thread)

[Green Cloud]

Hey dave, just curious where you hear that story was it from me, because I herd that story in Amittyville. Did you hear it from the same source or is it acommon story. I thought I was the only one that herd that story unless I shared it with you I dont remember.

Not to create a debate but I'm pretty sure it was a stone. In the vid that sifu was in with all the other masters in front of the monestary that CLF guy was breaking stones with diamond like percision. So it's not that far fetched that Jew chun. Pulled out a rock from s stone wall. It's probably harder to pull out a brick since its flater than a rock.

As far as What CTS did you saw his fingers they were like iron claws you know he could easily rip flesh with his dragon claws. God now how many times he hert us by just grabbing us.

[Fu-Pow]

Sam means three and bat ga ( ba gwua) means 8 triagram.

Saam means heart also in Cantonese. As a Sifu you really should know that.



I have asked you several questions about your self like who your teacher is and what your role in your kwoon is, but you refuse to reply. Yet you demand video footage of me. Please don't be mad.

I've been posting on this forum for gosh like over 5 years now...where were you?. I've told many times who my teacher is, my experience, posted my real name and it's Chinese pronunciation, what I do for a living, video footage of myself. If you really want to know....DO A SEARCH!!! I'm not gonna state it again because it's really irrelevant to what we've been discussing.



I realize after I took another look at that form that it was a real form and the content was good. I also noticed that youre wearing a yellow sash wich means your a beginner or beg. intermidiate or something.

In traditional kung fu the whole school wears one sash color. We don't have "belts." You really should know that as well.



In that case your pretty good altough you can use some work on playing that form. Your transitions are a little weak you need to work on you Ding sam bo but all in all it's good.When playing that form you could also add a little more power when doing a finishing move. Look I think if youre going to display something on line put your best footage on there, don't set your self up for Critisism.

Like I said...but I'll say it once again. Until you post something of yourself doing Choy Lay Fut (or, I'm really flexible, in some other way convince me of your expertise), your words of CRITICISM OR PRAISE really mean nothing to me.



Anyway snapping is snapping and I'l stop. I realize sometimes that my words are like daggers and they hert so I'm sorry. Ask anyone that knows me my jokes are even better than my kung fu.

The truth is I like to know who I'm talking to and so far you have posted nothing worth while. Oh yea except for that cruel footage with the mantis eatin taht poor cute mouse wich I thought was cruel and tasteless.

Anyway rather than acting like a brat demanding that we stop telling CTS stories, maybee we can hear some stories about your sifu or his sifu's sifu. Lets not forgett that people requested to have the CTS storiess TTT. My only goal on this forum is to share some stories and to hear some stories, and to get to know other Kung Fu people.


Too late to play nice now......you can start by shutting your "pie hole" about ridiculous feats of strength and post some video of yourself.

I'm awaiting another page of excuses......

[CLFNole]

I think if you were to right it out English like it would be "sum" because that is more or less how you say it.

Baat Kwa Sum - heart of baat kwa w/ CLF having 9 forms 8 for each side of the baat kwa triagram and the 9th being the center or heart.

Peace.

[GreenCloudCLF]

I have a picture of Sifu I'm trying to post for Fu Poo to see (Hope Sifu doesn;t mind), but it is too big to attach...anyone got some place I can upload it an link to it?

[htowndragon]

www.imageshack.us

[Anthony]

The above story does sound very movie-esque (whichever version).

Reminded me of a story of my own.

Years ago I was in Europe with my girlfriend (now my wife). We happend to be staying in the town where her grandparents came from. One day we went for a walk and found ourselves in the "old" part of town (most parts of town are old actually). You know, cobblestone streets, old houses built out of rocks, corridors, arches, walls, etc. Really interesting. Not all the houses were inhabited.

I remember walking down one street where (after marvelling at most of the architecture) I finally walked over to this wall. I said something to her to the effect of "imagine the hands (or people) that built this so long ago." The history of it all put me in kind of a reflective mood. I reached out and lightly touched one of the rocks/bricks that was part of the wall. With that, like ten bricks fell out of the wall and I jumped back. I would have never guessed that I would have caused that (by how well preserved the wall looked). Well.....that was the day that I realized how good my Kung-Fu really was!!! Actually.......NO. What I didn't realize was how weak and old the cement that held the rock wall together was. I would imagine China has old structures as well.

In my case I was ignorant of this, In Jew Chun's case it's because of his great Kung-fu. If the story inspires you then great. You should also realize that people do embellish and human perception is flawed. That's a fact, ask any lawyer who's had to depose multiple people who've wittnessed the same crime.

As a side note (back to Europe), there's no shortage of old people who will tell you ghost stories that they believe (or other such things...vampires, witches....were people really seeing them as well?). Should I take these stories as fact because some good natured old person decided to share them? Old people in any culture probably believe all sorts of things to be true that have other explanations.

Why must we constantly push for the belief that TCMA will make you superman? It won't and I don't think it's a good way to promote TCMA at all. I really doubt that any TCMA person that ever lived could walk over to my house and pull out a brick. It still doesn't lessen the benefits of TCMA.

In the end, I know youre just re-telling a story and I don't doubt the story.....just the perception of some of the contents.

[lkfmdc]

The obvious difference Anthony, is that you didn't then pick up the bricks and break them in half with your bare hands.... :rolleyes:

[Fu-Pow]

I think if you were to right it out English like it would be "sum" because that is more or less how you say it.

Baat Kwa Sum - heart of baat kwa w/ CLF having 9 forms 8 for each side of the baat kwa triagram and the 9th being the center or heart.

Peace.

Might be sam or saam in the Yale romanization.

http://www.chinalanguage.com/cgi-bin/view.php?dbase=ccdict&query=5FC3&mode=internal&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=yale&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=cantonese,mandarin,english

Anyhoo, sam is pretty common term in cantonese and used in all kinds of context.

Yau Saam,

Fu-Pow

[Green Cloud]

Fu pow This is the last time I'm going to talk to you about this. I am in the midst of trying to post some pics and some vids. But as far as asking you questions about your self why can't you answere my questions. As far as where have I been for all these years, I've been busy doing kung fu. I told ya I just got on this forum. I never was interested before but since I've recently injured my self I've had some time too geek out. I certainly am not that interested in you to do a search on you. I don't even know your name.

[Green Cloud]

Sim like the word simulate means heart not llike saam wich means three yat yee saam. that was the confusion.

[Green Cloud]

that means heart penetrating kick. The I is silent sounds more like sm. Any way fu pow I understand that youre still mad at me, so I guess I can understand why you get offended when I'm just trying to get the facts strait about your form. I wanted to make sure that you didn't mean the number three, since it is pronounced in cantonese as saam.


As far as your coment about traditional Kung Fu schools using the same color sashes for everyone. I'm aware that traditionally Kung Fu schools did not use colored ranking. In a traditional kwoon students wore a black sashes, not yellow not green.

The observation that I made was that you were sporting a yellow sash, so I assumed you were a beginer. Fu pow I don't know were you've been but since the turn of the century schools have adopted some form of ranking system. Most of these schools have adopted The Japanese or Korean ranking system.

Unless you train on a roof top basement or some garage with a hanfull of students you dont need colors. When you run a school with over 200 students than it gets kind of hard for the sifu to figure out who's on what.

I guess you would know that since you spent 6 years of youre life on this forum.

[hskwarrior]

:d :d :d :d :d

[_William_]

My mother was from guangzhou, and she pronounces it "sum" as in "some" with a slight rising tone. Everyone else I know pronounces it "sum" as well.

But then, depending on where you come from, pronunciation varies. Sort of like american and british english.

[Green Cloud]

Do you remember the time we taped Sifu?? The one story that stuck in my mind was the one about his wife girl friend I dont recall.

She basically was the love of his life. I have to appoligize since I don't have the tape. Wasn't this girl jew chun's daughter. Anyway I remember waching Sifu wipe his tears away as he told us the story. They would fight in the square and he would loose to her.

She would say if you beat me well wrap our hands around and drink from each others wine glass. Forgive me but I was still innocent back then, but I think she meant you know what.

Sifu explaned tearfully that he watched her die. I'm not sure why but I think it was giving birth. Shortly after that Sifu snapped and told jew chun that he was going to join the army and kill the Japanese. And boy did he kill Japanese soldiers. Wasn't it something like several hundred recorded kills???

I mean he realy snaped. If you were Japanese and you ran across CTS you were dead. Thats about the time he met the white hared devil Bock mo jew. Dave do you think you can elaborate??? Dave not just the killing stuff but the romantic stuff too. And don't forget his attempts to learn Bock mo jew's staff.

[Green Cloud]

My mother was from guangzhou, and she pronounces it "sum" as in "some" with a slight rising tone. Everyone else I know pronounces it "sum" as well.

But then, depending on where you come from, pronunciation varies. Sort of like american and british english.

Yes youre right, The pronounciation is not aam but more like mmm like um that's good. Accentuating the mmm. peace

[GreenCloudCLF]

Htown: thanks for the link

Fu Poo: here's a pic of my Sifu Green Cloud in Action (http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gusspear2ir.png)

Green Cloud: Hope you don't mind I posted the spear pic


Oh, and he's the one with no shirt on...

[5thBrother]

greencloud:

if u need someone to host pics i can host then for u. short term say 1 week.

or u are hing dai or si dai wif d.ross? he can host for u maybe?

but i can host if u can email me it or i ftp into u.

thanks of r pics n stories and info to all!

i trained 20 years den lazy arse 15 years all these stories very motivational :)

think i'll go hit the tree or sandbag before dinner....

5thBro

[Fu-Pow]

Htown: thanks for the link

Fu Poo: here's a pic of my Sifu Green Cloud in Action (http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gusspear2ir.png)

Green Cloud: Hope you don't mind I posted the spear pic


Oh, and he's the one with no shirt on...

And what exactly is this supposed to be demonstrating?

[GreenCloudCLF]

I'm sorry...did you miss the guy in the middle of the picture bending a spear that was being stuck into his throat?

Or how about the bricks being picked up off the floor because they were just smashed on his back with a sledge hammer...

And before you pull off an uneducated "that's only a parlor trick" comment...take a picture of yourself doing that...you've asked my Sifu several times for pics for making fun of your form, so it is only reasonable that if you are going to comment you are expected to do the same...

[wind draft]

This is so funny..... People of Chan Tai San gets all pi$$y and antsy when someone say something about him, or ask question about his authenicity. What' s wrong with that? If you are the truth why are you afraid of a little question? You guys get all defensive an sh*t but then Lama Pai Sifu a student of Chan Tai San was smack talkin about my Sifu teaching at the rec center. You guys can eat my Sh*t!! and F*ck you mark a$4 ***gots!! Remember I told you I live in Seattle if you wanna come find me.

I know Chan Tai San is a great Sifu and all but it's just funny how someone ask about his authenicity and you get defensive but when I said my Sifu teaches at the rec one of his student Lama Pai Sifu disrespect my Sifu and when I called him out no one respond. What kind of two face crap is that? If Chan Tai San was alive he be pi$$ed off that you guys are using his name for fame. Fu*k yall

[GreenCloudCLF]

This is so funny..... People of Chan Tai San gets all pi$$y and antsy when someone say something about him, or ask question about his authenicity. What' s wrong with that? If you are the truth why are you afraid of a little question? You guys get all defensive an sh*t but then Lama Pai Sifu a student of Chan Tai San was smack talkin about my Sifu teaching at the rec center. You guys can eat my Sh*t!! and F*ck you mark a$4 ***gots!! Remember I told you I live in Seattle if you wanna come find me.

I know Chan Tai San is a great Sifu and all but it's just funny how someone ask about his authenicity and you get defensive but when I said my Sifu teaches at the rec one of his student Lama Pai Sifu disrespect my Sifu and when I called him out no one respond. What kind of two face crap is that? If Chan Tai San was alive he be pi$$ed off that you guys are using his name for fame. Fu*k yall


Whoa now...someone needs a valium...

Firstly, If you are replying to my last post, I don;t even think I've ever responded to the same thread as you.

Secondly, many a fine teacher trains out of a rec center. (Lama Pai Sifu was probably referring to business-wise this not being the best practice (Which it isn't))

Thirdly, My comment was directed at a specific person (Fu-Pow) and not you. If you don't like the way I qualify my Sifu, that's no one's fault but yours. You can choose not to read my comments (that is what the ignore key is for)

Fourthly, Do you really think anyone is going to buy a ticket across the U.S. to fight someone?

Fifthly, I was only kidding about the Valium, but if you do not have a Rx, perhaprs you should get one.

Sixthly, CALM DOWN IT IS THE INTERNET FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!!

[wind draft]

Sorry I didn't read the whole post, but I was replying to the first few posts. Teaching out of rec being not a good business makes sense to me and if that's what he mean then forget what I said. Just like how you guys don't like people disresepecting your master I feel the same way and I will defend even if I get my ass beat.

And remember I never put down Chan Tai San. I actually think he's really freaking good. I saw his steel whip form and at the time for being old, he could move and he moved fast

But please I don't like it when someone post their forms and gets criticized hard core when the one criticizing has not post videos of their forms. By the way have you heard of Ching Mao? Supposely he was Chan Tai San kung fu brother. and our lineage is from that man Ching Mao. To be honest with you I don't even know if that's how you spell it. I just remember my Sifu saying that my Dai Dai Sigung trained under the same Sifu as Chan Tai San. So we're almost like kung fu brothers.

I guess I got upset because I believed that Lama Pai Sifu had disrespected my Sifu for teaching out of the rec and then someone ask about Chan Tai San and people went crazy. We all know that Chan Tai San was good when he was alive, but I've only seen him in action and not any of his students.

And there are reason why we train out the rec center. My Sifu used to have a kung fu school but he felt bad that most of his students were young kids in low income families and parents didn't have money and could not pay for classes, closed his school and taught out the rec for many years for free. This man my Sifu really cares about kung fu and the way he taught us, makes me mad when someone smack talks about him. You understand where I'm coming from?

Did Chan Tai San ever charge any of his students that are now charging big bucks for lessons?? My Sifu was never about money and I'll never forget that.

[GreenCloudCLF]

wind draft,

I am aware you never bad-mouthed CTS, and that is why reply contained no mention of you doing that. I undertand where you are coming from about the defending your Sifu.

As for Ching Mao, I have never heard the name. But being that CTS is my Si-Gung and not my Sifu, perhaps one of his students has heard the name.

And about teaching Kung-Fu for free, I think it is a very noble act, expecially for those who cannot afford it. But I always try to remember one thing, even a Sifu has to eat. And I don;t believe there is any reason why a Sifu shouldn;t have the best in world. They make a voluntary choice to pass on Kung-Fu instead of doing a job that could earn them more money (like stock broker or real estate). So I believe a happy Sifu is more willing to teach...and broke and hungry Sifu...not so much...but that is my opinion and probably another thread altogether.

BTW, what style do you train in, and who do you train with?

[wind draft]

I guess that makes sense. Because my Sifu has a full time job that pays well that's probably why he didn't charge me when I was 12. Now that I'm 21 I pay for classes because I feel its right. Well you see the style I practice its a new style and please don't dog on it. It's mostly Choy Lay Fut with a little bit of Hung ga and northern kicking techniques. From what I know, My dai Sigung learned Choy Lay Fut from his dad who learned from Ching Mao and he was more fascinated with hung ga and other styles that he mixed bits of these style and came up with Baat Ying Baat Faat which means Eight Animals and Eight Methods. And please don't clown and call it choy suey stuff.

The eight animals are:

Crane
Tiger
Dragon
Leopard
Snake
Ape
Monkey
Phoenix

the eight methods are:

Hard
Soft
Hard breathing
short strikes
continous palm
drunken
seizing and joint locks
kicking

It has a total of 23 or 25 forms.

I know it sounds funny but this style really works because I had to defend myself against 4 guys who were almost twice my size and I won. But I didn't walk away stracth free I got hurt too but overall I was the winner against 4 guys.

My kung fu brother took on two black dudes or was trying to jack him knife point and it's amazing that he took two guys out. And I know he didn't lie to me about it.

Based on that I know where you are coming from with the whole thing about stories being passed down. There's no need for them to lie just like stories about Chan Tai San why would he need to lie if he's actually that good. I hope that makes sense.

[Anthony]

"I'm sorry...did you miss the guy in the middle of the picture bending a spear that was being stuck into his throat?"

I'm familiar with that type of spear (it's commonly available at MA stores...and, I have one) and the blade is not sharp nor can it be sharpened (not that type of metal anyway). Furthermore it's obvious that the flat part of the blade (if you can call it a blade) is lying flat against his chest while the spear holder is pushing downward and not forward.

This is not the first time I've seen this performed and it is just a trick (because it tries to portray something that isn't really happening...that the blade is actually sharp, etc.). Including the patio brick-brake over the back part of it. I know that this can be practiced and done without ever having studied MA. I've worked with masonry before and I know how a correctly placed tap with a hammer can break it quite easily (on some parts of your body without hurting). Yes, I have worked around my house (bathroom tiling and landscape). So I'm saying this from personal experience.

The question was "what does this demonstrate?" and it's a relevant one because stuff like this falls under the "circus strong-man routine." Like the old footage of a guy taking a cannon ball to the stomach (no kung-fu, no chi-gung). I think the benefit of something like this is that it's a crowd pleaser and something to do at a demo. It's just entertainment.

As a side note, the wire break thing (I know it's going to come up.....it's another common one). You can go to Home Depot, buy some of that type of wire, wrap three around your chest (apart from each other) and twist it tight as you are breathing out. Then take a deep breath in. Snap, snap, snap.....Voila......your amazing Kung-fu skill has been proven. That wire is a common household item. I'm not going to tell you to try this but I have tried it. The worst thing that happened was red lines around my chest for a few seconds where the wires were. That and my neighbors saw me and had me committed....just kidding, hopefully nobody saw me.

No, I'm not the editor of "Skeptic Magazine" or anything. It's just that you can't possibly be so naive when it comes to stuff like this, there are simpler and more obvious explanations.

[SifuAbel]

Pics please................

[GreenCloudCLF]

Anthony,

1) I never claimed the blade to be sharpened. 2 at Sifu gus' demonstrations he begins by laying the point on his throat, and pushes down until the spear is bent like that which causes the spear point to appear to be resting against his chest(by the way after the brick break he snaps the spear in half while it is still positioned in his throat.)

And if you are so convinced it is a trick, take a pic of yourself doing it...

I have seen people do this with a gim, and not been impressed...gims are easy to find with flexible wushu blades.

[Green Cloud]

"I'm sorry...did you miss the guy in the middle of the picture bending a spear that was being stuck into his throat?"

I'm familiar with that type of spear (it's commonly available at MA stores...and, I have one) and the blade is not sharp nor can it be sharpened (not that type of metal anyway). Furthermore it's obvious that the flat part of the blade (if you can call it a blade) is lying flat against his chest while the spear holder is pushing downward and not forward.

This is not the first time I've seen this performed and it is just a trick (because it tries to portray something that isn't really happening...that the blade is actually sharp, etc.). Including the patio brick-brake over the back part of it. I know that this can be practiced and done without ever having studied MA. I've worked with masonry before and I know how a correctly placed tap with a hammer can break it quite easily (on some parts of your body without hurting). Yes, I have worked around my house (bathroom tiling and landscape). So I'm saying this from personal experience.

The question was "what does this demonstrate?" and it's a relevant one because stuff like this falls under the "circus strong-man routine." Like the old footage of a guy taking a cannon ball to the stomach (no kung-fu, no chi-gung). I think the benefit of something like this is that it's a crowd pleaser and something to do at a demo. It's just entertainment.

As a side note, the wire break thing (I know it's going to come up.....it's another common one). You can go to Home Depot, buy some of that type of wire, wrap three around your chest (apart from each other) and twist it tight as you are breathing out. Then take a deep breath in. Snap, snap, snap.....Voila......your amazing Kung-fu skill has been proven. That wire is a common household item. I'm not going to tell you to try this but I have tried it. The worst thing that happened was red lines around my chest for a few seconds where the wires were. That and my neighbors saw me and had me committed....just kidding, hopefully nobody saw me.

No, I'm not the editor of "Skeptic Magazine" or anything. It's just that you can't possibly be so naive when it comes to stuff like this, there are simpler and more obvious explanations.



Anthony first of all the sprear was made out of 440 carbon steel wich can be sharpend and it cerainly not rounded at the tip. The flat part of the spear tip does rest against you, but only once it's bent.

Bending the spear is the feat not once it's bent. Oh yea the trick is what you see the monks do they hold it with the foot wich obviously causes a slant making it easier to bend. I walk strait in on the spear look at the picture it's not on the ground. Still even the way the monks do it requires some serious conditioning and is still very impressive.

None the less I haven't seen anyone else do it. But I guess we have to question it since I don't have slanted eyes. Oh yea did I mention that I did that same demo in washington D.C. At the Wongs 2004 tournament. I also randomly Picked one of Hoy Lees spears that he was selling at his booth. Just so peole didn't think I was using a magical spear. By the way did I mention that my school missed 2nd place by one point and came in third out of 70 schools that were there.

That tournament is one of the best and traditional tournaments on the east coast. Too many great sifus were there that witnessed the demo and had nothing but great things to say about my demo.

[MasterKiller]

http://www.exn.ca/Stories/2003/06/09/51.asp

[PangQuan]

http://www.exn.ca/Stories/2003/06/09/51.asp

i notice they dont touch on the spear demo.

[GreenCloudCLF]

i notice they dont touch on the spear demo.

I was just thinking that.

[PangQuan]

they fear the spear

[MasterKiller]

Yeah, they're all easily explainable except the spear in the throat trick. :rolleyes:

[GreenCloudCLF]

I see BJJ has blinded you to the way of CMA...

And I want to see the physicist who debunked all the Shaoling acts preform the act...after all it's only science so anyone should be able to...

[wind draft]

while what the physicist may explain part of things. He can't do any of those things even using his science crap. The physicist their job is to prove something and he's just trying to look good by proving this thing about shaolin. doesn't really mean much cause he still can't do it.

[PangQuan]

well that proves it

chinese magic.

ok ok, more stories please.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Hey now, I'm not talking chi blasts...I'm talking conditioning...especially since water balloons don't have nerves (Iron shirt explination).

[Anthony]

Let's get back to the original question of "what does that feat demonstrate that is particular to CMA?"

The spear is quickly rested against your body because your assistant pushes down immediately (i'm sure you don't pick a random assistant with a sharp spear). If the spear was sharp and your assistant pushed forward I have no doubt that it would cut you pretty badly.

IKF magazine had an article years ago where this trick was among others that was exposed.

I'm saying I'm convinced it's a trick and telling you why (based on what I've personally seen and experienced or tried), I'm not saying that you have to be.....you can be as naive as you want. You're just making yourselves look silly.

Me...."it's a guy in a Gorilla suit I saw him put it on."
You....."No it's Big Foot."

That's what this conversation pretty much amounts to.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Wind Draft

I think you might have misread my post on the business section. I didn't bad-mouth your Sifu. We were discussing teaching and it was the rec center that we were talking about for a pro martial arts school. Nothing to do with teaching, nothing to do with your Sifu's Kung-Fu. I appologize for your misunderstanding.

:)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Oh, and by the way everyone; heart is pronounced 'sum' as in "Chuyhnn Sum Teui" (Heart Penetrating Kick) "Baat Gwa Sum Kuyhnn" (Heart of 8-Triagram Form/Fist) or "Siu Sum" (Be Careful). Sometimes people have trouble spelling Cantonese, even though they might be saying it correctly.

I know I dont' romanize it 100%, but I'm fairly close.

I hope this help you guys out!

[wind draft]

Thanks Lama Pai Sifu for clarifying things up. I really appreciate the apology for making me misunderstand what you were saying. Thanks

[WanderingMonk]

Let's get back to the original question of "what does that feat demonstrate that is particular to CMA?"

The spear is quickly rested against your body because your assistant pushes down immediately (i'm sure you don't pick a random assistant with a sharp spear). If the spear was sharp and your assistant pushed forward I have no doubt that it would cut you pretty badly.

IKF magazine had an article years ago where this trick was among others that was exposed.

I'm saying I'm convinced it's a trick and telling you why (based on what I've personally seen and experienced or tried), I'm not saying that you have to be.....you can be as naive as you want. You're just making yourselves look silly.

Me...."it's a guy in a Gorilla suit I saw him put it on."
You....."No it's Big Foot."

That's what this conversation pretty much amounts to.


Hey go to http://www.quandoman.com/mgallery.htm
and check out his clip.

Bending 1/2 Inch Steel Re-Bar On Throat Of Another Hung Gar Practitioner

Mr. hamby also bent a re-bar on his throat for a discovery channel show called "more than human". don't know if the show is around anymore. I canned my cable a while ago. He was hooked up to all type of instrument and there was no assistant helping him. It was just him, the bar, "something" that supported the re-bar so sifu hamby and push off against, and a sensor to measure amount of the force being exerted on bar.

basically, your explanation wouldn't work too well in his case. You need a better and more comprehensive model.

Actually, I can post a series of still screen captures which show a ermei guy being suspended completely on one tip of a trident. full body weight. the original is in real media format but my computer is too freakin slow to converted the clip into something that I can sliced up.

if someone offer to host a small clip (about 5 meg after I slice it up) for me, I will e-mail him a legit one finger hand stand clip. If he can see it, he can post it on the web for all to see. not everything is smoke and mirror.

[CoRWiN]

So people that do believe are by default naive ... wow, ignorence has a home.

As to the question what does the spear to the throat demonstration show or prove, it is a demonstration of Chi mastery. A dangerous one at that. It is an advanced exercise in Chi control. As far as the details laid out by GreenCloud who is my Sifu, it is exactly how he described it, i know i've seen it first hand.

[Green Cloud]

Hey go to http://www.quandoman.com/mgallery.htm
and check out his clip.

Bending 1/2 Inch Steel Re-Bar On Throat Of Another Hung Gar Practitioner

Mr. hamby also bent a re-bar on his throat for a discovery channel show called "more than human". don't know if the show is around anymore. I canned my cable a while ago. He was hooked up to all type of instrument and there was no assistant helping him. It was just him, the bar, "something" that supported the re-bar so sifu hamby and push off against, and a sensor to measure amount of the force being exerted on bar.

basically, your explanation wouldn't work too well in his case. You need a better and more comprehensive model.

Actually, I can post a series of still screen captures which show a ermei guy being suspended completely on one tip of a trident. full body weight. the original is in real media format but my computer is too freakin slow to converted the clip into something that I can sliced up.

if someone offer to host a small clip (about 5 meg after I slice it up) for me, I will e-mail him a legit one finger hand stand clip. If he can see it, he can post it on the web for all to see. not everything is smoke and mirror.


I also saw an episode on myth busters on this impessive gentleman who bent the re-bar and by the way it doesn'y have apoint an still when they conducted a test it still cracked the wood. I'ts actually the same as the spear exept re-bar is easier to do. None the less it was proven to be real not a trick. Just like talking on a cell phone while pumping gas wont cause an explosion. I wander what moran thought of that one

[Green Cloud]

Lama pai sifu Thanks for the clarifications on the heart trans. Sum, not saam like the number three. By the way once again youre right about getting sucked into this forum now I understand. You have to deal with sudo inelectuals like Anthony and filth mouths like wind draft. Now I understand thanks. I hate it when youre right.:D

[Green Cloud]

Anthony this is a challenge, lets see you takea dull spear and bend it. Oh yea make sure its the same thickness.

[Fu-Pow]

Lama pai sifu Thanks for the clarifications on the heart trans. Sum, not saam like the number three. By the way once again youre right about getting sucked into this forum now I understand. You have to deal with sudo inelectuals like Anthony and filth mouths like wind draft. Now I understand thanks. I hate it when youre right.:D

Yeah and definitely not "sim" which you originally posted.



01-12-2006, 07:38 PM
Green Cloud Green Cloud is online now
I am my teachers student

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wading river N.Y.
Posts: 81
Sim not saam
Sim like the word simulate means heart not llike saam wich means three yat yee saam. that was the confusion.

(bolds are mine)

Anyways, my Sifu pronounces it more like saam than sum, so hence my confusion in romanization. Maybe it's a Hong Kong thing or Kowloon City thing. Not that it really has anything to do with anything....really.

On a side note...funny that Dave Ross has been totally silent in this discussion... you think he'd be defending his classmates ol' spear in the throat trick....

....but then wouldn't that kind of run counter to every "mystical" explanation in kung fu that he's ever shot down on this or any other forum.

The plot thickens. ;)

[Green Cloud]

This is so funny..... People of Chan Tai San gets all pi$$y and antsy when someone say something about him, or ask question about his authenicity. What' s wrong with that? If you are the truth why are you afraid of a little question? You guys get all defensive an sh*t but then Lama Pai Sifu a student of Chan Tai San was smack talkin about my Sifu teaching at the rec center. You guys can eat my Sh*t!! and F*ck you mark a$4 ***gots!! Remember I told you I live in Seattle if you wanna come find me.

I know Chan Tai San is a great Sifu and all but it's just funny how someone ask about his authenicity and you get defensive but when I said my Sifu teaches at the rec one of his student Lama Pai Sifu disrespect my Sifu and when I called him out no one respond. What kind of two face crap is that? If Chan Tai San was alive he be pi$$ed off that you guys are using his name for fame. Fu*k yall


wind draft, how dare you use such volgarity, this is A Chan Tai san thread. as far as comming up to see you I'm there. See while some people on this site can't aford bus fare I have the luxury of getting on a plane and slapping you like your moma should have. Just give me your adress. and after I'm done maybee I'l have a word withyour sifu.

Lama pai sifu you can pay for the air fare since it's originaly your coment that insulted this moran and I need you to video tape it for me. Don't worry Sifu Mike makes more than me he can afford it;). I need you tape it because anthony needs proof that I can actualy discipline someone that is so insulting. This goes for anyone that thinks that they can talk like that. I'l meet you have way just pay for half my air fare and we can test our stances.

This is not a joke, treat me with respect I'l treat you with respect. Disrespect me and I'l snap your head off your shoulders. I've been nice up to now, and I'me just trying to tell my stories but before you pop **** be ready to back it up!!!! Once again people that want to hear stories aboutn CTS want the thead TTT'd the rest of you can start onother thread about your sifu and oh yea lets hear about your own accomplishments.

Wind draft, I don't think that a low class person like your self could be in my lineage.

[Green Cloud]

Let's get back to the original question of "what does that feat demonstrate that is particular to CMA?"

The spear is quickly rested against your body because your assistant pushes down immediately (i'm sure you don't pick a random assistant with a sharp spear). If the spear was sharp and your assistant pushed forward I have no doubt that it would cut you pretty badly.

IKF magazine had an article years ago where this trick was among others that was exposed.

I'm saying I'm convinced it's a trick and telling you why (based on what I've personally seen and experienced or tried), I'm not saying that you have to be.....you can be as naive as you want. You're just making yourselves look silly.

Me...."it's a guy in a Gorilla suit I saw him put it on."
You....."No it's Big Foot."

That's what this conversation pretty much amounts to.


actually Anthony at wongs 2004 tournament I randomly picked a few volonteers and a random spear. Once again I invite you to try.

[Jules]

Wind Draft, the discipline that I originally come from is Hula. In Hula, the Kumu Hula (kind of like Sifu in Kung Fu) is the source of all the student's Hula. This includes all Kumu Hula; not just one's own. The Kumu Hula malamas (takes care of) the culture that gave birth to Hula and passes its mana--it's spirit and thoughts--on to his or her students. In Hula, when a student feels he has to disrespect a Kumu, s/he has lost something special, has lost some of that mana, and his or her Hula will suffer for it.

I think it's similar in Kung Fu. If you feel the need to randomly and childishly attack a Sifu, you have to ask yourself what you are missing. Especially when you do it while hiding behind a moniter. Internet Fu is easy, isn't it? As for your "Come to Seattle and find me," that's also very easy to say too, isn't it? Why, it's even easy to give out your address and issue a challenge, because, you're thinking, What are the chances of anyone actually flying out here? And if they do, I don't even have to show up. And if they find me, I can always run away, or if I don't, I can always call the police or sue someone when I finally get my @ss handed to me.

Are you a Sifu? I'm getting the idea that you're not. I think that, like me, you are a mouthy student. (We've all got something to say after all, don't we? I'm no exception.) Unlike you, however, I don't have anything to prove; I know exactly where I stand in my Kung Fu training and I'm fine with that. And if I did have something to prove, I certainly wouldn't do it from behind a computer screen. So, you can blow all the hot air you want, and cuss and kick your feet and have a tantrum. But at the end of the day, you're nowhere close to the level of GreenCloud, and with your attitude of disrespect, you will never be. Are you going to be a student of Kung Fu, or are you going to be l'enfant provacateur?
---> http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/enfantprovocateur.htm

Jules

[5thBrother]

FU POW:

get a grip..

u obviously have soem kinda agenda with GreenCloud

some kinda PERSONAL PROBLEM ... keep it personal in PM...



i dunno eithe of u..
im not choy lay fat

in fact im lam tong long...

if any clf i lik it would be buk sing... :P but i dun discriminate....

but it so obviously comes across to me as a 3rd party stranger.. that ur have some linda petty issues bewteen u 2....

it makes u look like an idiot...


i mean.. dunno maybe im just in a bad mood... i'm just sick of spiteful stuffs..

but stop being a spiteful little ***** :D.... and jumping on "every littleing thing u can" , seriously it makes u look like a 13 year old private school girl ***** :/ .... at least take it to private ....

u may not understand this but i have enoyed many of ur posts in the southern forums... its cos of that i say this... dunno i just think ur above it so i wish u would rise above it.... if u have a "man to man" problemn with greencloud - so be it kewl... handle it man to man

i wanna hear about CTS stories and Lau BunStories for that.. Lam Jo.. morio higaonna.. hell any high level teachers and masters...!!

i shoudl never post when drunk... now im in deep *hit :X

:/


ok end of drunken rant...

[wind draft]

What the heck is your problem? I thought Lama Pai Sifu and Green Cloud CLF cleared things up and it was a misunderstanding about teaching out the rec center not being a good business profit and nothing about dissing on my Sifu. I said all that stuff cause I thought he was talking smack about my Sifu.

My address is 8754 14th Avenue NW Seattle, WA 98117 Come get me. And yes I'm not a Sifu so what? Why are you still continuing this when I said thanks to Lama Pai Sifu for clearing things up? You actually want to beef? I gave you my address just come on up.

Did you not read what Lama Pai Sifu said? Calling me moron? You're the moron

this was posted by Lama Pai Sifu:

Wind Draft

I think you might have misread my post on the business section. I didn't bad-mouth your Sifu. We were discussing teaching and it was the rec center that we were talking about for a pro martial arts school. Nothing to do with teaching, nothing to do with your Sifu's Kung-Fu. I appologize for your misunderstanding.


You feel disrespected? Like I didn't feel disrespected....this was between Green Cloud CLF, Lama Pai Sifu, and me and didn't we already clear it up? But you want to come fight me. Come on then..I posted my address. You don't need to talk to my Sifu.

Hey Green Cloud CLF is this how you teach your student?

[GreenCloudCLF]

wind draft,

better double check my posts...Green Cloud is my Sifu, not the other way around...

[wind draft]

In reply to Jules:

da*mn right I'm a filthy mouth student. Sue me. That's how I was raise in the ghettos with all the gangsta sh*t. I've seen a lot I'm not scared. I've had guns point at me, been shot at, been shot, knifes pulled on me, fought 4 gang memebers at one time. What else I got to lose? I also stabbed a guy with a 10 inch fish knife for jacking me, so who knows what I might do being stupid crazy that I am and that I get pi$$ed off easy.

Just remember this all started because I THOUGHT LAMA PAI SIFU DISRESPECTED MY SIFU AND SO I SAID ALL I SAID. BUT WHEN HE SAID:

Wind Draft

I think you might have misread my post on the business section. I didn't bad-mouth your Sifu. We were discussing teaching and it was the rec center that we were talking about for a pro martial arts school. Nothing to do with teaching, nothing to do with your Sifu's Kung-Fu. I appologize for your misunderstanding.


I thanked him for clearing things up. No where did I ever disrespected Chan Tai San, so what are you guys so wrapped up about? Like I said I've been through a lot of sh*t and I'm not scared so if you want to come here I've already posted my address. You guys come to defend your Sifu because you feel that I disrespected them just remember that's exactly what I did, defend my Sifu because I thought he was being disrespected.

[Fu-Pow]

FU POW:

get a grip..

u obviously have soem kinda agenda with GreenCloud

some kinda PERSONAL PROBLEM ... keep it personal in PM...



i dunno eithe of u..
im not choy lay fat

in fact im lam tong long...

if any clf i lik it would be buk sing... :P but i dun discriminate....

but it so obviously comes across to me as a 3rd party stranger.. that ur have some linda petty issues bewteen u 2....

it makes u look like an idiot...


i mean.. dunno maybe im just in a bad mood... i'm just sick of spiteful stuffs..

but stop being a spiteful little ***** :D.... and jumping on "every littleing thing u can" , seriously it makes u look like a 13 year old private school girl ***** :/ .... at least take it to private ....

u may not understand this but i have enoyed many of ur posts in the southern forums... its cos of that i say this... dunno i just think ur above it so i wish u would rise above it.... if u have a "man to man" problemn with greencloud - so be it kewl... handle it man to man

i wanna hear about CTS stories and Lau BunStories for that.. Lam Jo.. morio higaonna.. hell any high level teachers and masters...!!

i shoudl never post when drunk... now im in deep *hit :X

:/


ok end of drunken rant...


Haha...I love drunken posts. Actually 5 bro, I don't have any "hidden agenda." My original problem with these Chan Tai San stories is that some are just plain ridiculous and others, they can't be verified.

Now if if stopped right there it wouldn't be an issue. However, I have seen a certain former student of Chan Tai San bash other students for telling ridiculous stories that can't be verified. That's hypocritical and I can't stand that crap. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.

Now as to this recent spat with Green Cloud. If you look back through the thread its actually him who has been looking for crap to nitpic on that has nothing to do with my original point that these stories are somewhat ridiculous and can't be verified.

He's tried to pick at my form, my sash color, my Chinese romanization.....all which BTW failed miserably.....and all of which BTW had nothing to do with my original point.

Keepin' it real,

Fu-Pow

[Fu-Pow]

My address is 8754 14th Avenue NW Seattle, WA 98117 Come get me.

That sounds like Ballard. Who is your Sifu? I actually live in Seattle also. BTW, I wouldn't post personal info like that on this forum.

[wind draft]

oops. my mistake on that mix up.

I never discredit the stories about Chan Tai San.. I actually enjoy reading it. But when someone attack another asking some authenicity about Chan Tai San, someone when crazy and it made me think about how I thought my Sifu was disrespected for teaching out the rec.

And yeah keep the Chan Tai San stories coming cause he's freaking good.

[wind draft]

Thanks Fu Pow for the warning but like I said I'm not afraid if they come here. That's why I posted my address. To be honest with you I don't even know how good Green Cloud kung fu is. I went to the site but there was no video of him doing anything. I already saw Lama Pai Sifu broadsword and it wasn't bad, but none of these guys compare to Chan Tai San even when he was old. At least you got some balls to post a link of your form under your name.

[Fu-Pow]

At least you got some balls to post a link of your form under your name.

More to come too. I think later today or tommorrow I might post excerpts of fook fu dai pah, seung lung do and maybe even a little siu ping kuen from my Sifu. Compared to him I look terrible.

Peace.

[wind draft]

at least you still post videos. I haven't seen any other smack talkers post videos. Only pictures. hahaha... cause they know they suck. Who's your Sifu? Mak Fai?

[Jules]

In reply to Jules:

da*mn right I'm a filthy mouth student. Sue me.


I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but in America you can't be sued for using foul language and making yourself look silly. And even if I could, it's not worth the bother.



That's how I was raise in the ghettos with all the gangsta sh*t. I've seen a lot I'm not scared.


Why should you be? It's the internet.



I've had guns point at me, been shot at, been shot, knifes pulled on me, fought 4 gang memebers at one time. What else I got to lose? I also stabbed a guy with a 10 inch fish knife for jacking me,


Gosh, I'm just wondering, do you have any videos of that happening? Because you know, anyone can SAY that.



so who knows what I might do being stupid crazy that I am and that I get pi$$ed off easy.


I'm trembling over the internet. :rolleyes:

~~Jules

[wind draft]

Jules:

gee why would someone have incriminating stuff put on tape for? Am I stupid? You sound like my brother. He wanted to videotape himself beating the crap out of someone and putting it on myspace. You're nuts. Plus Green Cloud I believe is your Sifu? He said he's gonna take a plane out here to beat me up. I never even bad mouth him, I was talkin to Lama Pai Sifu..

Green Cloud said:

This is not a joke, treat me with respect I'l treat you with respect. Disrespect me and I'l snap your head off your shoulders. I've been nice up to now, and I'me just trying to tell my stories but before you pop **** be ready to back it up!!!! Once again people that want to hear stories aboutn CTS want the thead TTT'd the rest of you can start onother thread about your sifu and oh yea lets hear about your own accomplishments.


When did I disrespect you? Is your name Gus? Well Gus you can eat my dust! There you have I just disrespected you. Happy?

You guys need to learn a lot from Lama Pai Sifu and his professonalism. Lama Pai Sifu probably think I'm some punk kid so why bother wasting his breathe? Maybe you should learn that from him. Geez you guys are probably twice as old as I am. haha..

[wind draft]

Wasn't the monastery that Chan Tai San study at called Clear Cloud Monastery and not Green Cloud? hahaa

[Jules]

Jules:

gee why would someone have incriminating stuff put on tape for?


Too bad for you that "missing the point" isn't an olympic sport. You can claim to be as tough as you want; you can claim that you beat up 18,000 fire-breathing ninja-wizards and stabbed the entire ghetto or whatever you want. After all, you're the one who said:



To be honest with you I don't even know how good Green Cloud kung fu is. I went to the site but there was no video of him doing anything.

Here you are making all of these claims as to your own OMG POWERZ but when a real Sifu comes along, you're complaining because there's no video of him.



Am I stupid?


Now, why do you have to make this easy for me?



Green Cloud said:

This is not a joke, treat me with respect I'l treat you with respect. Disrespect me and I'l snap your head off your shoulders. I've been nice up to now, and I'me just trying to tell my stories but before you pop **** be ready to back it up!!!! Once again people that want to hear stories aboutn CTS want the thead TTT'd the rest of you can start onother thread about your sifu and oh yea lets hear about your own accomplishments.


Yes, all of which made sense. You should respect the people who are sharing their Kung Fu with those of us who know so much less. Your point?



Geez you guys are probably twice as old as I am. haha..

Maybe even three times as old in my case, if my guess on your age is correct. I'm 33, so you can do the math. I guess.

~~Jules

[wind draft]

For one thing the whole video thing, that's cause Green Cloud was dissing on someone elses form so we said let's see your form.

Second all the things I said about that happened to me is true. Green Cloud told me to back it up and that I was a low class person. Well I was saying yes I'm a low class person, that's where I was rasied the ghetto. And all that stuff that happened to me here in the ghetto.

Yea you are older than me but only by 12 years. And remember I never stopped you guys or discredit any Chan Tai San stories.

This all started because someone attacked another when he asked authenicity about Chan Tai San. Who cares if he asked that. It's like someone say God exist and someone else say really prove it. And you get all pansty about it. You feel me?

Remember I'm ghetto so I cant afford a ticket to come to you otherwise I would so how can I afford to buy a camera? You guys are rich so that's probably why all the smack talk. By the way are you a woman? You're name seems like it.

After rereading the first post by Anthony. I can see why most of Chan Tai San students and lineage are upset. Let's start a thread on verification of Chan Tai San. That does sound kinda rude and I can see why you're mad. Anthony could have just either believe it or not, but you guys could also have ignored him.

[Jules]

For one thing the whole video thing, that's cause Green Cloud was dissing on someone elses form so we said let's see your form.


Wouldn't that be between Sifu and the person who said that?



Second all the things I said about that happened to me is true. Green Cloud told me to back it up and that I was a low class person. Well I was saying yes I'm a low class person, that's where I was rasied the ghetto.


A) Once again, you can say it all you want on the internet. I can say that that I'm an eco-terrorist from Midgar; who's to prove or disprove it? B) You may be from the ghetto, but you don't have to act like a foul-mouthed, chest-beating kid with something to prove. You could always rise above it.

Besides, I used to live in Seattle. I remember everyone there talking all about the crime and how hard the streets were in ghetto Seattle and all, and I just had to laugh. I saw one crime there. It was a violent and bloody one, and completely brutal and random, but for the most part, it wasn't New York. You're lucky to live in such a nice place.

You want to talk "I did this and I did that?" I fended off five would-be rapists in an alley outside of my high school when I was a kid. This was, let's see, about 17 years ago, ages before I even considered Kung Fu. So when you're talking about how tough you are because you fought this person and that person, keep in mind that many of us have been through the same thing. You don't have to wear it like a badge.



It's like someone say God exist and someone else say really prove it. And you get all pansty about it. You feel me?


When I first started Kung Fu and one of our GreenCloud people fell ill, there was a lot of support and unity. One of my favorite Sehings said to me: "Kung Fu is more than just fighting; it's about taking care of your Kung Fu family." You see?



Remember I'm ghetto so I cant afford a ticket to come to you otherwise I would so how can I afford to buy a camera? You guys are rich so that's probably why all the smack talk.


First of all, don't assume things about people here, that any of us have any kind of money. That kind of poormouthing stuff is totally beat and proves nothing. Besides, if you're posting on the internet and studying Kung Fu, my guess is that you're not starving, either.



By the way are you a woman? You're name seems like it.


Actually my name is unisex--didn't you see Pulp Fiction?--but I am a woman. Why do you ask?



After rereading the first post by Anthony. I can see why most of Chan Tai San students and lineage are upset. Let's start a thread on verification of Chan Tai San. That does sound kinda rude and I can see why you're mad. Anthony could have just either believe it or not, but you guys could also have ignored him.

You could have ignored any of this yourself, you know.

~~Jules

[wind draft]

You know what? You're last post made a lot of sense. I wasn't trying to say this and that to be tough. That was not my intention. Green Cloud said he was going to come here and smack my head off my shoulder and I said all the stuff I been through so I'm not scare of him coming up here and smacking my head off my shoulder even if he could kick my ass. My point in saying all that was I'M NOT SCARED OF DEFENDING MY SELF AND MY SIFU BECAUSE OF WHAT I WENT THROUGH. I'm not trying to act tough.

Yeah I'm posting on the net but my internet is free internet "nocharge internet". I'm poor. my kung fu class is free because my Sifu knows I'm poor. I don't even know why I'm still having this conversation with you. This is just going back and forth back and forth. Are you coming up here for Green Cloud to teach me a lesson? if not shut up

[Fu-Pow]

at least you still post videos. I haven't seen any other smack talkers post videos. Only pictures. hahaha... cause they know they suck. Who's your Sifu? Mak Fai?

Haha...that's right....I'm a smack talker WITH videos.

And yes, Mak Hin Fai is my CLF Sifu. I'll try and get some video up of him soon. I've got a great one with him doing siu ping kuen in a pimpin' dress shirt, tie and pants..... and oddly enough.... red tennis shoes.

There is a story behind that one that doesn't involve any magic.

[wind draft]

Fu Pow cool.. I'll be glad to see that...

[Jules]

You know what? You're last post made a lot of sense. I wasn't trying to say this and that to be tough. That was not my intention.


Well, that's indeed how you came across.




Yeah I'm posting on the net but my internet is free internet "nocharge internet". I'm poor. my kung fu class is free because my Sifu knows I'm poor.


Again, what is all your point in this? Are we supposed to feel pity now? Or guilt because we pay for our classes? Or guilt because we can? Why not stop trying to get a reaction by telling us all this stuff about yourself and just have some respect like you were asked?


Are you coming up here for Green Cloud to teach me a lesson? if not shut up

So basically what you're saying is that you don't have anything but fighting. That talking and making sense--actual human relations?--are beyond you, and all you know is "the ghetto" and how to stab and beat people up? That's very sad. Someday we're all going to be old and decrepit. Hopefully it happens when we're into our 90's and not sooner. By then, none of us will be doing roundhouse kicks and grappling or any of that stuff, and it won't matter if we can stab the entire ghetto of Seattle or not. But what we will have if we're lucky is the ablilty to relate to others and be social people. I'll still have the good things that I learned. Many Kung Fu students will hold on to the culture, the respect for lineage, and the kindness of other training brothers and sisters. My Sifu will still have the respect of his students. If all you have in your life is your ability to hurt people instead of helping them as well, and bragging and mouthing off, what will you have when you can't walk anymore?

Maybe that's the difference between you and most Sifus.

~~Jules

[wind draft]

As much as you think my writing is out of line I feel the same about your writing.

I felt like you were still attacking what I was saying. Then in your last post just now, it didn't seem like anything about fighting. I'm stopping this conversation right now. It's doesn't make sense anymore.. I think gettng hot head doesn't help with this conversation either. By the way I'm not a Sifu and that's probably why I'm different than the Sifus. I know a got like 10 years before I even become one. So there. End of this heated BS conversation back and forth thing.

Peace

[GuSpeed]

Wind Draft,

You talked about how these people are getting wrapped up in this talk, but you are doing the same thing. Let it go buddy. Everyone can tell you're upset and it makes you look silly. Just from the way you act on here people can tell that you are some younger kid. Let it go my friend.

[CoRWiN]

There's a huge difference between low class and no class. And in some sense your right, there's nothing wrong with questioning the legitamcy of a teacher, but it's how you go about it that's importent. What anthony basically did was go up to a bunch of SiGung Chan's prodigy's and close friends mind you, and said verify (prove) his credibility. Totally inconsiderate of their own greiving for his death and in a completly disrespectful way. It's like going up to God and saying prove yourself to me. How about going out and reading the bible first. So let's assume then that Anthony HAD done some research before asking, what he's REALLY saying then is he dosn't believe the stories and sounds more to me like he's trying to debunk them. To question his stories is to question the man himself, and to do that is to question his Kung-Fu, not smart on a Kung-Fu forum.

In regards to Fu-Pow and my Sifu, everyone seriously mind your own business.

In terms of my own impression of the form, i thought it was weak. The stances weren't deep and the movements were slow and weak. I noticed a yellow sash though in which case your coming along well. In our school yellow is only just above white. I get the impression though that it's different for you, thus i criticize it on a higher scale.

Wind i actually read your first couple posts and then defended you to my SiFu later on saying it was all a misunderstanding and i would and AM getting extremel y defensive about my own SiFu. Here's the difference though, read my post no cursing no swearing, no illogical ranting. I'm proper and respectful, and i'm only 23 so don't go bringin up age with me. Give respect and you will get respect. As for the challenge my SiFu would fly out to fight someone who was a peer, in this case not you. I on the other hand would be more then happy to defend his and his school's honor considering were of similiar level. If their are no apologies or meeting of the minds before summer comes expect to see me.

You disgrace your sifu with your conduct.

[wind draft]

Corwin,

Thank you for defending for me on the behalf that it was a misunderstand. Who's your Sifu? I personally drop a message in Lama Pai Sifu apologizing for the whole misunderstanding like after he told me that I misread his post.

This got all out of hand because we don't know the tone of the person and it's just words so there can be lots of misunderstanding. And you're right I should have had more respect by not swearing. Reason why I haven't posted my Sifu's name is because if he knew about this, he probably kick my ass even if I had thought someone was disrespecting him in the first place. He doesn't care if someone disrespect him, he would care that my actions were stupid as an immature kid.

After reading what Anthony wrote in the very first post of this thread, I did feel some of what he said was almost rude because Chan Tai San did passed way and no way should he needed to ask for verification. He could have believed it or not.

I can't believe it took all this writing for us to get along. I bet if this was in person talk to talk, hearing the tone and intention of the person we probably would have not been arguing. I must admit, I did get pretty hot headed and it was not cool. I do apologize for my disrespect to any Sifu's here and to my Sifu for this, but I'm not apologizing because I'm afraid of getting my butt kick. But because I realized I was being immature on the harsh words I used that got all this out of hand.

And instead of saying someone's form is weak we could say you could improve by doing this or have you thought about that. Fu Pow does have courage for posting his forms where not many people have.

[CoRWiN]

I completly agree with you that posting on forums is an aweful way to hold conversations that the subtles of communicating are totally lost. In fact my girlfriend and i have a standing rule of no talking through AIM due to too many ridiculus fights. We need to take everything with a grain of salt on these forums and we should all remeber that.

My Sifu is Green Cloud, not to be mistaken with the like 5 other greenclouds(something something). Just to tell a little story about my own experiences with my Sifu, when i was 12 I was getting into the skater pot smoker crowd. Only child with a mother constantly working I had way too much free time, and living in a place like Huntington village on Long Island was chance to really get sucked into the vices. Now i had always loved martial arts, ninja turtles you know... so one day i just walk into his newly opened school with my mom, get some info. That day changed my life. I studied hardcore for 2 years, were talking my summer was spent everday 11 am to 9 pm trainning. I eventually had to stop due to a drastic move and 8 years later was able to move back into the area. The first thing I did was try to find him. Now life has thrown it's bumps in my path and i've strayed don't get me wrong. But i'm focused now and that's what counts. The moral of the story is i'm not special, i'm 5'9 brown eyes brown hair. Everything about is average, except that I was fortunate to walk into a kung-fu school of SiFu Gus that changed my life. Even he dosn't know the profound effect, but it was his influence through his teaching of Kung-Fu that made me the person i am today. To me that's all the credentials he needs. Thanks for apologizign, i'd still like to stop in during the summer i actually have been plannin a trip there anyway with my grilfriend, doin a bike trip from washington where i have family to Napa county wine country.

Glad this is all cleared, now lets get back to hearing more SiGung Chan stories...

[wind draft]

Cool, I'm glad things are clear up with everyone now. Yeah more of Chan Tai San stories.. from the beginning I have been fascinated with his stories and skills. It's even more exciting to be able to see what he was able to do when he was alive. From what I remember my Sifu said something about Ching Mao (our lineage) trained under Chan Goon Bak and something about Green Cloud Monastery or Clear Cloud Monastery.

Dang I hope my Sifu doesn't find out about my stupid immature bad mouth.

[CLFNole]

I don't think you you judge a person by looking at the color of his sash. If you know anything about traditional chinese kung fu then you would know there is no sash system. All the members of a mo kwoon will wear the same color sash which can vary from style to style and school to school. Students tie the knot on the right and sifus on the left.

The yellow sash is the color of the Lee Koon Hung lineage.

Belt systems are incorporated in certain schools to please us gwai lo.

Peace.

[Jules]

Wind draft, thanks for rising to this level; it's all good. That's very big of you and an awesome thing to do.

Corwin, as you may have guessed, Sifu Gus is my Sifu as well and he is awesome. Kung Fu was one of the best decisions of my life. I wish I could have met Chan Tai San because by all accounts, he was an amazing person.

~~Jules

[Green Cloud]

I am amazed at how elequent and well spoken Jewls and Corwin are. while sitting backand reading this thread. I forgot the obvious that I was talking to a kid. My computer went on the fritz and I was not able to respond to respond to winddraft. So when I got home I responded hastily with out going back to read the thread with the opology.

I was caught by surprise by Winddraft's sudden apearance on this thread. By the way he was not yelling and cursing at Lama Sifu, he started in with Jason (green cloud clf) who did nothing.

This guy wind draft jumped in and started attacking using stong ubseneties and called all of us out. Much to my surprise wind draft issued a chalenge to the CTS people. I was surprised and shocked.

My students were mre perceptive, than me and realized that this is a troubled youth. So on that note I apologize for not seeing that in the first place.

[Fu-Pow]

In regards to Fu-Pow and my Sifu, everyone seriously mind your own business.

In terms of my own impression of the form, i thought it was weak. The stances weren't deep and the movements were slow and weak. I noticed a yellow sash though in which case your coming along well. In our school yellow is only just above white. I get the impression though that it's different for you, thus i criticize it on a higher scale.

So basically you're giving the same criticism as your Sifu? How original.

Anyhoo, I take anything said here about my form (or anyting else for that matter) very very lightly because without some evidence of what you know or can do, you could just be some a$$ clown who wants to give me hard time...whether you have 200 students or not. With out naming names, there's more than a few a$$ clowns with lots of students.

None the less because you seem to have a much better demeanor than your Sifu I will address your criticisms.

1) The stances- In our version of Choy Lay Fut the stances are not performed very low because we do not see this as practical for CLF.... which should emphasize mobility. When I post my Sifu's form this will become clear. Usually, I sink my stance a bit lower than what you see in the video, however, this video was shot in front of a huge crowd of people on a very wobbly stage. I'm riding my stance a bit higher than usual so that I don't fall on my ass. You can see in my Chahn Fu that I can go very low, no problem, but the circumstances that day dictated a higher stance.

Furthermore, a low stance does not indicate "rootedness." Look at Wu Taiji for example, they ride their stance very high and yet are extremely rooted. The key is to look at the hips and feet.

2) The movements are slow and weak-All I can say about being slow is that I'm 6'7" tall and 250lbs...so what do you want....Shaq to move like Jason Williams?

My Sifu is 5'5" tall and can move as fast as a cat. I'm 6'7" so I move more like a giraffe....lol. However, even a giraffe can be powerful and skillful....so I reject that there is no power in the form. If you have the capability to watch the form in slow mo you will see that each movement is at full power and extension. There is an explosive release at the end of each movement. Especially watch the kicks.

Looking forward to seeing some of this Green Cloud CLF......

Peace.

[CoRWiN]

Sifu you mentioned that Sigung Chan often unwittingly hurt his students do to his shear strength accidently. Was this because of all his kung-fu trainning and can we attain this as well or was he just that large of a man. I've heard from you he at some point did boxing as well as he was abnormally large for a man of Chinese heritage.

[wind draft]

Green Cloud,

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, because I was only directing the yelling and cussing at Lama Pai Sifu and not anyone else. Now I see why this all happened. It's all a really big misunderstanding. I never had the intention of calling out Chan Tai San people. I had misunderstood that Lama Pai Sifu was dissing on my Sifu, which he wasn't and that all got cleared up. I didn't even know I was cussing at Green Cloud CLF. I thought I was talking to Lama Pai Sifu. Again sorry for this.

It's funny I'm actually "KIND OF" happy that this happened because now I have a whole lot of respect for Corwin and Lama Pai Sifu. They both acted really professional even though I was cussing and not making sense.

[Green Cloud]

Listen up Little wind draft, I was born in Germany, my parents were Greek and settled in Germany. I was born with a bone desiese and spent the better part of a year in a hospital.

My child hood was hard since I was crippled. eventualy I got braces on my legs like forest gump, this helped me get around better. Not like running around and playing like ordinary children. The braces helped me to stand and often I lost my balance and I fell.

Shortly after that my dad left for America to make more money. My mom moved back to Athens Greece to live with her parents. Oh yea if you haven't figured it out yet we were poor and lived in the Athens geto. I spent three years in Athens then my father made enouf money to send for us.

From the frying pan into the fire. at the time I was six years old I had never seen a black peron ever. Naturally I was in shock when I came to America since I went from Greece to the Projects of NY. Freeport Long Island, if youre trying to picture it flayva flave the rap artist came from there.

I got beat up every day, not only was I white I couln't speak english and I was a walking tragedy. Pain and sufferring became a way of life. At about the age of six years old my dad started taking me to the cinema in the geto. You guessed it what do most black people from the hood have in common, that's right Master Killer kung fu movies. The rest is history

It was the getto that intoduced me to kung fu and it was the best thing to ever happen to me. By the time I was 15 I was a force to recon with. Even Richard Griff from publick Enemy yup the rap group had befriended me when he saw my abilities and the fact that I was a bad Mo Fo.

So I hung with the 5 percenters( Louis farakan black Moslem sect that hate jews and white people). They did a muslim style called ketsugen and Tam Toi spring leg. After fighting all of the guys in the group I was accepted as one of them. The reasoning was that I wasn't white I was Olive skin ust like most Muslims.

I could rock pop and even new how to break dance when it was called the bea boy. Of course a young wip a snap like you never heard of the term Be a boy. I was even a Guardian Angel. I've been shot at seen drive byes and even had peole die in my arms. I was the president of the gragons gang and broke many laws and fought in rumbles all the time.

Go to any brother and as about me and there respond will be much respect that's a bad mo fo and a stone coal killer. I've partied with Edie Murphy and his boys and watched rob low snort Coke at studio 54.

In all that time I never did drugs and always showed respect to my elders and certainly never used slang or rood language.

You see no matter where I came from and no matter how poor I was I was a kung fu student first.

I was part of an elite group of people that rich or poor always displayed proper conduct and etiquet.

I rolled all my RRRs and spoke properly and never had to worry about peer pressure for I was a Kung fu student that lived by the highest moral standard and Ideals. I set the example never followed it.

Although I have to admitt at times we all forgett who we are. Wind draft when I do see you I will hug you tightly and will only let you go when you say SI sook. As far as your teacher is concerned he is a great man in my book to be sharing his knowledge for free. Don't take him for granted and never quit studying and always remember your conduct represents your Sifu.

Don't let your environment control you instead use it as your way to achieve control.

[wind draft]

Little Wind Draft? Okay.....

Thanks for sharing your misfortune as a child. That's awesome of you for knowing who you know and did what you did. Also thanks for the advice about not letting your enviroment control you, because I notice there has been many times that this happened.

I'll pass on the hug, I'm not really a hug type of person, but I'll shake your hand and thank you for your concern. Yes my Sifu is a great man. I just hope he doesn't find out about all this cussing I did cause he'd be pretty upset with me. I thank you for seeing who I am and that I'm not a product of what my Sifu made. Cause he's a great guy and he would condemn my actions.

But did you get my message that it wasn't my intention to call out Chan Tai San people and it was just a misunderstanding between me and Lama Pai Sifu?

[Jules]

Fu-Pow says:


With out naming names, there's more than a few a$$ clowns with lots of students.

None the less because you seem to have a much better demeanor than your Sifu I will address your criticisms.


Seriously dude, get over it already. Everyone else is chilling out and you're still acting all stung over criticism.

Let's pretend for a moment that everyone on this forum was totally crippled and couldn't actually do forms, but yet knew what they were supposed to look like. Would their critique be any less valid? How about this: I can't cook a decent meal to save my life, yet I know when something tastes bad. I can't make a blockbuster film, but I know when there are mistakes in movies.

Whatever critique was leveled at you has probably been leveled at all of us. If you can't take critique of your form, how about you don't put it out there for the world to see? You can't post something on the internet and then expect everyone to sit back in awe and tell you how terrific you are. There's always someone who knows more than you do. It reminds me of some fiction pages I frequent: fanbrats write stories, and then when someone criticizes it they inevitably come back with "How dare you, let's see YOUR writing." But one doesn't have to be a writer to see mistakes. As far as my Sifu goes, his Kung Fu is impeccable. There is more info out there than the Green Cloud web pages, and a little search would show you that. But maybe you don't want to do that search because you would find out something you didn't want to read.

As far as your height goes as it relates to your form, I understand. I'm what my guy friends like to call "tall for a dame"--at almost 5'10", all my height in my legs, I know I look like a flailing bird a lot of the time and I'm trying hard to control that. Sometimes to no avail, but it's good to be aware of that. That is something that one of my sije pointed out to me today, in fact. Did I take offense? Please! Why would I? When someone who outranks you, or even someone who doesn't but knows whereof they speak, critiques you, that's a gift and the best thing you can do is listen. If you get insulted everytime someone corrects or critiques you, Kung Fu must be bad for your ego. And if critique is so damaging to you, then you have the option of not posting your work. That's the rule for all art forms, as far as I know.

Hey Sifu Gus, that is an amazing story. I had no idea you were born in Germany. Wow, you could write a book with all of your experiences. ^_^

Malama kakou (take care of each other and ourselves,)

~~Jules

[Green Cloud]

Hey, Wind draft don't get weirded out my the hug thing. In fact I don't realy even like shaking hands especially during cold and flew season. A bow will suffice.

[Green Cloud]

In mike Parrela's pic of sifu doing that wire break, Anthony said that too was just a trick. I can see how you would think that. Me and my training brothers always tried to figure out how he did too. Needless to say I have yet mastered that trick, and dont think I even want to bother.

I often wondered about this demo trick, one day me and Mike P. got our hands on some of Sifu's magical wire.

You guessed it we had to try it. The first time I tried it it almost cut threw me like a hard boiled egg and I yelled get it off it hurts. Of course we tried again and me and Mike were only able to brake one each.

The thing is at the time I was very strong young and muscular. I'd like to point out that in the video sifu CTS was in his late 60'sand broke at least six wires that we strapped on his body.

If you look carfully the wire breaks on his side by his ribs not were it was tied. Just go to nykungfu.com and look for your self.

There is agovernment video that yoy can probably get if your in China town. In the video they point out the obvious. Before CTS does the break he bust's out a bock mei set at full speed, I have not yet seen anyone do bock mei like that again.

[Green Cloud]

Sifu chan was obviously in the brick breakers club. Once again we all tryed to accomplish some of his breaks and you guessed it we were not succesfull, at least with the breaks that he did.

At an NYU demo he placed three bricks on a table and slapped them. at first it seemed that he didn't break the bricks when we looked closer there was a line right down the middle.

I was suprised since the bricks didn't crumble, I had only seen breaks when there was spacers involved. These were ordinary red bricks and weren't even susspended between two other bricks, they were placed flat on the table, and flat against each other.


When it came to cinder blocks Sifu Chan Tai San snapped those suckers as they were made out of clay. Ofcourse weve all seen him snap them across his head, but he did one break that was incredible. He was able to take a cinder block and twist it with his hands, just like tearing a peice of paper.

Explaine that one Anthony.

[Green Cloud]

Anthony I urge you to try any of these so called tricks. All I ask before you debunk a skill try it first. If you can't do it must be a real feat or at least a trick that you don't know.

After all isn't kung fu just a bunch of ancient tricks, you know the hand is quiker than the eye than you get hit. My students know that all to well, they might be younger stronger and faster than me but I got the tricks. After they get hit they wonder how they got hit.

Mr. Anthony has a magician ever shown you a trick, but after you try to pull off the magicians trick youre unnable to do it?? You see The one thing a magician has over the audience is what is called SKILL. I'ts not the trick but the performance that's impressive.

Think about it when a magician does a trick to you yell out thats a trick no DAA , or do you leave with wonderment saying to your self how did he do that???

[hskwarrior]

Green Cloud

Thanks for sharing your ordeal as a child. At first i thought i was the only one here who sustained some very serious injuries. the fact the you never let those setbacks stop you from your martial arts path is worth a commendation.

as you aleady know, i suffered a severe spinal cord injury where i was told at the age of 19 that i would NEVER walk again. Can you conceive what that's like for a person to have his life taken from him in the blink of an eye. One minute i was at the top of the world. Had some good ma skills, loved to kick and things like that. the next i fell 50 feet and broke 3 parts of my back with the bone pushing into the spinal cord.

But gung fu was my life, and it was all i could think of. so i let it be my focul point and strived towards that every day. There were many points where i wanted to give up on gung fu because for me then, it was too physically demanding. I recall one class back in the 90's during a drill session. everyone was going at it, but i just wasn't strong enough to do what they were doing and i left the class and broke down. my sifu was there to remind me how far i've come, and to never give up.

I used that philosophy in all aspects of my life. so far, i have given back by teaching other disabled folks and one of the was in a wheel chair who broke his neck from diving into a shallow end of the pool. he always wanted to learn, (sifu Troy Dunwood could attest to knowing who this is). So i worked around his limitations and strenghtened his strong points.

sorry, didn't mean to hijack this thread, getting back to my point, Sifu Gus i have a new respect for you since we have come from the same type of situation with illnesses. I know you already do, but never forget those lessons that life has taught you and keep applying them to your gung fu and pass that knowledge down to your students. i'm sure they will be inspired about that.

i don't know, but hopefully i've made a new friend in you, but keep up the good work dude!


HSk

[Green Cloud]

Thanks frank that means a lot to me, The point of my stories is just to share trials and tibulations with people on this forum. I feel that we are all connected as kung fu people in one way or another. You and me are definately the same in a parallel universe.

I feel that even though we don't share the same the genetic make up of our Sifu's DNA, the legacy that they pass on to us courses through our veins. Think about it, Why would students of kung fu take on the challenge of studying such an esoteric art filled with hard ships???

I think it's becaue we, like our Sifu's, have everything in common with them. Kung fu is not just a hobby it's a life style. Just like our Sifu's and their Sifu's Sifu. It's a romantic persuit to develop personal excelence and spiritual perfection in our lives.

True kung fu people live a life of high ideals. They seek the truth and dont get caught up in the materialistic superficial word, but only seek to find beauty from with In through the living art of kung fu.

Please jump in on these thread any time and share, Even though we might stop and talk about our own experiences I don't think it takes away from the thread. It only ads contrast to the subject by allowing readers of this thread to see how the teachings of these masters (Lau bun Chan tai san and others) have affected their Disciples lives.

It's all part of the story and relative to this thread. Even though the Thread morphed into something else it over shadowed the original question that started this thread.

To doubt is to question to quetsion is to doubt, but to not believe is a horrible existence knowing that threre in no end or pourpose to this life.

Joy gin my brother

Hey if your ever in NY mikasa su kasa.

[wind draft]

When was the last time an arguement connected people? I feel that this has gotten us closer. What do you say?

Green Cloud, a kung fu bow it is. Thanks.

[Green Cloud]

like I've said you realy get to know someone when you fight them, and yes in most cases that's how I developed some of my closest friendships. Interesting how thing work out. wind draft I think weve gotten closer, and we've sure made this thread a lot more interesting.

[Green Cloud]

Sifu you mentioned that Sigung Chan often unwittingly hurt his students do to his shear strength accidently. Was this because of all his kung-fu trainning and can we attain this as well or was he just that large of a man. I've heard from you he at some point did boxing as well as he was abnormally large for a man of Chinese heritage.


Nee how Corwin, Sifu Chan was very wide and muscular for a chinese person, Much bigger in stature not taller just wider. His strength was unexplainable, and I think because of his age he lost some of his control. CTS was trying to get my attention and grabed my shoulder as I was trying to walk away and accidentaly dislocated my shoulder.

As you noticed the other day in sparring class, I'm alot more dangerous since my injury and that causes me to have less control. I feel that was the same reason CTS had a problem gaging hi strength.

[Green Cloud]

hey corwin there was another time, sifu CTS was showing the proper way to do a been choi, anyway as he demoed the been choi Jeff from huntington school stepped in his way, and sifu CTS nocked him out by accident.

When I asked jeff hey why did you hit the ground he only hit you in the chest area surely that couldn't have hurt. Jeff's responce was, " I don't know what you saw but it felt like I got hit with a sharp stone.

[Green Cloud]

I had a difficult time not connecting with my sao choi ( sweep punch), so I asked CTS how I could connect with this punch since it was basically a haymaker. It's a great way to counter atack but I had a hard time using it offensively.

Much to my suprise Sifu CTS started boping around as he strated to demo a jab cross and bobing and weaving. I asked Sifu is that another style of kung fu, he looked at me and yelled no stupid it's boxing.

Chan Tai san explained, that while The Sao choi was a great technique it was more of a finishing move since it's designed to break someones jaw or if you caught an oponent with the fore arm against the neck then it turns into a close line.

in order to close the gap when sparring it was wise to occupy your opponent with a jab cross then as the other guy is focusing on the jag cross the sao choi has time to connect.

When I asked how do you block a sao choi?? he replied you don't you focus on the guys chest, tuck your chin against your chest, by looking at the chest you can use your periffarel vision since there was no time to stare at the punch.

In short ducking bobing and weaving was a neccesity according to Sifu CTS. a good example was the fight with chan haak fu with the Tai chi guy.

Chan hak fu was geting hit as he was trying to hit the other guy with a cup choi (downward stomping strike). That technique is only effective if a been choi is thrown first than folowed by a cup choi.

Don't get me wrong if the cup choi connects it's over. Sifu CTS explained that some methods of fighting were out dated. These were killing tech. that were designed to inflict the most damage on the battle field.

In the ring some times it was best to use some western style boxing since the puncking tech. are alot faster although the tech. are limmited. AS far as chan hak fu he is using Bock hok wich sifu Chan described as being limitted, and not as affective as Lama wich employes more tech.

Sifu CTS proved that during a fight with another White Crane guy that challenged sifu. He was 40 Sifu was in his 60's, here's another examle of how an older guy can be real danderous. This fight resulted in a death, but that's another story.

By the way the fight that's in that video does not result in a draw. The Tai chi guy knocks his teeth out altough you can't see it on the video.

[Green Cloud]

hey dave, did you already tell the story about the time Sifu had the fight with that white crane guy?? I dont wnat to be redundant.

[Green Cloud]

jewls I know youre lurking around

[Reality_Check]

I have been following the recent discussions on this thread, as well as the other, with great interest. Consequently, I have some questions of my own that I hope Sifu Chan’s students would be willing to answer.

First off, regarding the styles that Sifu Chan taught/knew, is the following an exhaustive list?

Northern Siu-Lum Pai
Bak-Mei
Dai Sing Pek Gwa (Great Sage Monkey System)
Sit Gaut
San Shou
Southern Eagle Claw
Northern Eagle Claw
Iron Palm
Chi Gung - Hei Gung
Chin Na
Pankration
Nanchuan
Jiu Jia Quan (Drunken Boxing)
Nok Fei Pai
Mok Ga
Western Boxing

If so, could you please, if possible, list Sifu Chan’s teachers of those styles? I believe this would be a fascinating glimpse into the personal history of this famous teacher. If the list is not complete, could you please add the information that I am missing and list the respective teachers?

Thank you in advance for your replies.

[lkfmdc]

I'm not sure of the origins of the above list? And frankly, some of the above are SKILLS, not styles....

Chan Tai San had two major styles, styles that he held lineages in and knew the entire systems in...

Lama Pai, from Jyu Chyuhn, Ma Yi Po, Dang Ho, Dang Yuet San, a few others

Choy Lay Fut, from Jyu Chyuhn, Chan Sai Hung, Chan Sai Mo, and a few others

Sifu Chan studied Bahk Mei with Chan Dik-Seung, a senior student of Cheung Lai Chung.

Sifu Chan studied Hung Faht under "White Haired Devil"

Sifu Chan learned Mok Ga under Mok Ching Gui's family

Sifu Chan learned some Dai Sing Pek Gwa from a friend of his who is a student of Chan Sau Chung, I honestly don't have that person's name in front of me

"Sit Gaut" I can only guess you mean "Seut Gok" or "Shuai Jiao" which is Mongolian wrestling and is PART OF Lama Pai...

There is not "Iron Palm" Style.. Similarly Chi Kung (Heih Gung) and Neih Gung are SKILLS, which he learned in all of the above systems

His San Da/San Shou approach came from his years in the Army (1937 until roughly 1980, with a few years in the 50's when he was not active in the military)

[Reality_Check]

Thank you for the reply.

The list originated here: http://www.greencloud.com/academy/about_art.html

As you can see, I simply cut and pasted it. In addition, you are correct, the list did include items that are skills not styles. That was an error on my part in not removing them before posting.

Do you have any information on from whom he learned the following?

Northern Sil-Lum Pai
Northern Eagle Claw
Southern Eagle Claw
Pankration
Nanchuan (I doubt it, but is this the Southern Fist Contemporary Wushu form?)
Nok Fei Pai
Drunken Boxing (part of Lama Pai or Choy Lay Fut?)
Western Boxing

Thank you again for your reply and I look forward to reading more.

[Green Cloud]

Thank you for the reply.

The list originated here: http://www.greencloud.com/academy/about_art.html

As you can see, I simply cut and pasted it. In addition, you are correct, the list did include items that are skills not styles. That was an error on my part in not removing them before posting.

Do you have any information on from whom he learned the following?

Northern Sil-Lum Pai
Northern Eagle Claw
Southern Eagle Claw
Pankration
Nanchuan (I doubt it, but is this the Southern Fist Contemporary Wushu form?)
Nok Fei Pai
Drunken Boxing (part of Lama Pai or Choy Lay Fut?)
Western Boxing

Thank you again for your reply and I look forward to reading more.


Sorry, These are some of the styles I learned in my 35 years of training, I don't specialize in all of them but most of what's on the list have influenced my curiculum.

My core curiculum consists of lama , choy lee fut and Northern Dai sing pek gwa. Which I learned from Sifu CTS. I did Nanchuan (contemp. wushu) when I was a kid and pankration from family sources of my own since I am greek.

I learned boxing from out side sources you know like the PAL and stuff. Northern siu lum is Pek gwa when I was a kid from onother sifu Chan Y yung. But sifu CTS tied it into the Northern Pek gwa that he taught me.

Nok fei pai was a northern style CTS taught me. Drunken boxing, It's a broad term but yes both CLF and Lama have drunken forms like the Joi Batt siin 8 drunken Imortals. Southern Eagle from CTS and Northern eagle from him too.

He was Lily lao's uncle, so I'm just speculating that he picked some of that from her dad. Don't quote me on that since CTS trained with many people and also exchanged knowledge with many. He was a walking encyclopidia of Kung fu.

Dave is also right about Iron Palm not a style but conditioning exercizes wich include hei gung and chi gung. For those Brian Grey people Iron Palm is not a style most systems have it, like Sam Sing exercizes (Iron Forearm).

I have to update my web site it's farely new and that list is some what confusing. I opologize for the confusion.

[Jules]

jewls I know youre lurking around

I am. ^_^ Trying to absorb all of this info and stories. So much to learn!

~~Jules

[Green Cloud]

Hope all is well, see ya in class.

[Jules]

Ahonui A Lanakila
Hope all is well, see ya in class.


Gotcha. :D See you on Monday! (I hated missing Wednesday but was in court as a witness on behalf of a friend.)

~~Jules

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Just a little Clarification:

Grandmaster Lily Lau and Grandmaster Chan Tai-San are not niece/uncle.

They have been good friends for many years and they decided to become "Godfather and Goddaughter".

Sifu Chan and I spend a week at Lily Lau's school in CA in 1995(6)

She personally taught me, Tam Teui, 5 Tigers Spear, an Eagle Claw Staff form and a hand form (which I have on tape, but dont' quite remember :( )

They were very close friends.

Sifu Chan never met her father.

Just wanted to clear this up. I know a few people were confused about thier relationship.

I also just saw here at a banquet we both attended in Hong Kong in December. She's looking very well. I think there's a pic of us on my website on the photo page. http://www.nykungfu.com/gallery/index.asp

Hope this helps!

[Green Cloud]

Thanks for the clarity, see ya in AC

[Green Cloud]

How about telling that story that we herd at that banquet years ago, you know the one with sifu and that White crane dude. You recently told the story in one of my emails.

[Green Cloud]

Hey check some new pics of Sifu and some note worthy masters on my web site greencloud.net

[hskwarrior]

Green Cloud,......

IT"S Brendan Lai.....yu crazy mutha effer............:D just kidding dude.

i was at brendan lai's yesterday. I teach stick fighting too, and one of my students bought a tonfa to start practicing with.

the late sifu Lai's store has move since his passing. before they were on the corner of 17th and mission (where i grew up) but now they are between 14th and 15th and mission. nicer store. smaller, but nicer.

nice pics dude. which one are you on the far left?

[hskwarrior]

Dave ross, Gus, Mike

if you go to my website at....http://www.sifufmccarthy.zoomshare.com

there is a list of names of masters going back to chan heung. i hope this helps in learning something even if its minute about your passed elders. this is a start.

i am going email it though.

[Fu-Pow]

Hey, your web page is really coming along Frank. Nice Work!

Thanks for the list of masters. I printed it out and I'm going to give it to my Sifu.

Peace.

[hskwarrior]

not bad for a free website huh?

thanks to alot of you guys for criticizing it i learned alot on my own how to do some things.

but print both pages fu pow, and tell your sifu my sifu and i say hello.

[Green Cloud]

Green Cloud,......

IT"S Brendan Lai.....yu crazy mutha effer............:D just kidding dude.

i was at brendan lai's yesterday. I teach stick fighting too, and one of my students bought a tonfa to start practicing with.

the late sifu Lai's store has move since his passing. before they were on the corner of 17th and mission (where i grew up) but now they are between 14th and 15th and mission. nicer store. smaller, but nicer.

nice pics dude. which one are you on the far left?

thanks for the spell check frank, I'm the good looking one;)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

FRANK! That would be my mug on the left!!!!

And I couldn't find the list on your site, can you email it to me??

thanks a bunch!

[iron_silk]

Just a little Clarification:

Grandmaster Lily Lau and Grandmaster Chan Tai-San are not niece/uncle.

They have been good friends for many years and they decided to become "Godfather and Goddaughter".

Sifu Chan and I spend a week at Lily Lau's school in CA in 1995(6)

She personally taught me, Tam Teui, 5 Tigers Spear, an Eagle Claw Staff form and a hand form (which I have on tape, but dont' quite remember :( )

They were very close friends.

Sifu Chan never met her father.

Just wanted to clear this up. I know a few people were confused about thier relationship.

I also just saw here at a banquet we both attended in Hong Kong in December. She's looking very well. I think there's a pic of us on my website on the photo page. http://www.nykungfu.com/gallery/index.asp

Hope this helps!

Lama Sifu! You got to meet sifu Siu Hou...that is so cool! He's one of my favourite performers on Shaw Movies!

Do you have any stories or what was it liking meeting him?

Thanks

[Royal Dragon]

Bump because this is not sticky

[Green Cloud]

Bump because this is not a sticky, what da ya mean man

[5thBrother]

bumb = TTT

cos its not a sticky = sticky topic which keeps it at the top

its a compliment


thanks all

the chan tai san and lau bun stories are great and partly counter balance the BS ****ing contests type threads plague here atm ......


TTT :P

[Green Cloud]

Thanks 5th brother

[Green Cloud]

Ok, I've been waiting for my brothers to jump in on this story, but there were no takers. Once Upon a Time there was a man called Chan Tai san who's kung fu was the farest of them all.

Seriously I had to start the story like that to satisfy the skeptics. Any way me dave and mike find our selves at a banquet honoring someboby. Back then I went to so many banquets I can't rememeber wich one was wich. I do rember that it was in Boston.

As we watched sifu CTS suck on a chicken head wich was well strange, a gentleman looks at us and sais, you know the last fight your sifu had he killed the guy he frought, and then proceeded to eat his food.

I tried to contain my self, but like a crack addict I jumped out of my seat and yelled, please tell me the story, for gods sake please tell me the story. I waited for my training brothers to stop me, and exuse my abrubt statement, but instead their eyes got wide as they leaned foward to listen.

The gentle man whos name escapes me at the moment began telling me the story. Sifu CTS was about 60 years old at the time when he ran into a white crane stylist. Upon meeting they both started a discussion about their styles. If you thought the flame war I had with Knife fighter was crazy, you aint seen nothing.

Basically their discussion escalated into an argument just like me and KF, with the exception that the internet hadn't been invented yet. Sifu Chan told the White crane stylist that his style was inomplete and that Lama Pai was the Complete version of White crane.

CTS informed the White crane stylist that His style was incomplete and had some gaps. Well White Crane Sifu didn't take that coment very well, and challenged CTS to a Fight to prove that White Crane was a better style.

Sifu CTS tried to talk the guy out of fighting, but this guy didn't care he felt that he was insulted and so he had to fight to save face. This was a public event that many people witnessed. The fight was similar to the event that Chan Hak fu was in. Thats the guy that was in the video that fought the tai chi guy.

At the time sifu was 60 years old and the guy he fought was 40. AS we sat listening wide eyed and in awe this guy starts giving us blow by blow details.

As the white crane guy punced at Sifu cts he intercepted all his techniques and hit this guy with a chuun choi. Well the fight lasted a few seconds and it was over this guy was DOA.

Sifu explaned that it was life or death and because of his age he realy could play around with this guy. If any of the strikes that the WCguy threw could have hurt him bad if he landed any of his blows.

Please dont take this the wrong way Bock hok people, I'm not trying to say that Lama is a better style, Sifu CTS was just better thats all.

The parallels of this story are similar to the disagreement me and Knifefighter had. exept that was real and face to face and this is the internet.

Some of you thought I was poking fun at an old person during the recent flame between KF and me. That's why I waited to tell the story. After getting to know my sifu I learned not to judge a book by its cover, and to never under estimate an older opponent.

[Green Cloud]

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[Green Cloud]

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