bung bo

[ironfenix]

I got HK 7 star bung bo,
How does it compare to mainland 7 star bung bo? I am guessing the movement will be different (ie power generation, stance depth, etc.) but is the sequence of movements different or is it a totally different set like HK/mainland WASP?

How does it differ to the pong lai bung bo?

[Sifu Darkfist]

holy moly here it comes. Just kidding, You will find little differences in all of the styles. However one thing is certain, bung bu is an amazing change in the approach to CMA.

[monkeyfoot]

Lol darkfist - I almost knew that you would be one of the first guys to reply....what is it about bung bo posts that draws you in so much :D

Anyway.....If you search around the foum you will find multiple posts with videos and discussion of lineage differences, applications and much more.

I know for a fact that myself and darkfist have started more than 2 threads on the subject.

craig

[18elders]

Now available, master shr beng bu dvd on sale. Recorded 20 years ago in taiwan.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Learn-Praying-Mantis-Kung-Fu-from-Pong-Lai-Master-DVD_W0QQitemZ7210507146QQcategoryZ79780QQssPageNam eZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Oso]

I've seen a copy of that vid by master shr, good stuff. need get me a copy.

[mantis108]

First and foremost, all my usual caveats apply.

In the boxing manuscript "Boxing, Staff, and Spear Fencing Manual" dated 1842 Liang Xue Xiang listed 3 routines (Bengbu, Luanjie and Fenshen Bazhou) - the so-called mother forms. The characters used for Bengbu are Crash and Fill. This is different from most of the names (ie Crushing Step, etc) used in modern days. Most of the popular versions of Bengbu are fairly similar and can be categorically designated as Yantai Bengbu because it was first popularized in Yantai City, Shandong. From Yantai, it eventually step (pun intended) into the international stage via Hong Kong. BTW, the popularity of this form and the information from Liang's manuscript might have inspired the adage "Bengbu Dao Bazhou Shen Xian Ye Nan Tiao" (From Crash and Fill to Eight Elbows even the Gods and the immortals find it hard to escape). We can see the importance of this form. Bengbu is important in the sense that it trains a fast paced linear continuous forward pressure with advancing footwork; while Bazhou is more about 8 different attributes (Yinyang Gangrou Xushi Jintui) which make it more intricate.

The Sevenstar version and most of the Greater Meihwa Line versions of Bengbu are Yantai Bengbu. Ponglai's version technically is Mimen which could be grouped under the GML as well. It is of note that all versions of Yantai Bengbu outside of Mainland (ie HK and Taiwan) as far as I am aware can be done with and would have a Ling (partnered side). This is not necessarily the case with the lines remained in the Mainland. This, I believe, is the innovation that Sifu Darkfist alluded to.

Ponglai version of Bengbu IMHO has some unique features such as Pai Da, Cun Jing, and emphasize on Shuai Lu Liang Fen beside being extremely close quartered even by Tanglang's standard. Also the use of key drills such as Wei Gua Shou (outer hanging punch) to help develop the fighting skill using all techniques in the form really makes the Ponglai version outstanding IME. But then I am baised. ;)

Hope this helps.

Mantis108

[Oso]

:D so, when you gonna switch????

jus kiddin.

I've had two 'holy grails' in the last 6 years...the short term being Bung Bu. the long term being Mimen in general. (that's gonna take the rest of my life)

I bought Sifu Funk's tape almost 6 years ago and managed to get through first road of it teaching myself.

Over the past 6 years I've seen several versions of Bung Bu played out. Most have been nice enough...some pretty horrible.

I'm not knocking anyone else's version of it...but, I'm just glad I've ended up with the set I did.

now, I'll just be glad I can get back to playing it...

[monkeyfoot]

Most have been nice enough...some pretty horrible.


I have to say that I dont like the over emphasized look of the 'lower leg sprouting' as some people play it.

Im HK lineage so its only a quick 7* step in the form

craig

[Sifu Darkfist]

Mantis 108 posts another amazing synopsis for the subject of tang lang history. thanks your additions add to my linear knowledge (mostly application with the craving for history lessons) all in good time.

Actually Monkey you are the first to notice my addiction to this set.
It seems to me that the Inventor touched the face of the relentless attack very early in his composition. This calls for my deepest respect. From the perspective of a man who dwells on the theory and actual use of the style in hand to hand as well.

Bung Bu and Mantis changed the face of CMA in my view. It stood up and said "I will no longer defend myself" "i will now actively destroy my enemies before they can act"

I am no where near the authority on history as Mantis 108, or My Master or His. However i can tell you that this set opened a new era in fighting out of the Middle Kingdom and now to the face of the world.

The principles behind the infamous Bung BU play a part in all my martial training
including the ancient and fierce Baji Quan. i think like the relentless mantis in all my arts.

Perhaps the jar lesson that sickened so many could serve a purpose after all, it shows the never ending tenacity of the mantis and its will to fight to the last drop of blood never resting until the end of the conflict.

[K.Brazier]

Hi Robert,

" Ponglai's version technically is Mimen..."

This might mislead people into thinking the form was taught by Zhang Dekuie, which it was not. Though the motion of my shifu on video doing this form is somewhat like the so called Mimen.

It is such a raraely seen thing, how my Shiye did his PM.
I have seen several examples of it from my family.
Besides my shifu there are others who knew zhang and learned from my shifu while my shifu was still training with Zhang.

My elder who actually trained with Zhang taught me his way of movement. Imagine my surprise when I noticed that his style of motion was almost a clone of Mantis108.
The same type of jumping to different angles that you see in TJPM. BTW, this type of angled striking is not what is comonly seen in 8 step and 7*.
It is still there but the emphasis is different.

"all techniques in the form really makes the Ponglai version outstanding IME. But then I am baised. ;)"


The Pong Lai version you refer is what is taught in the states. But my shifu also teaches the TJPM version. Different people are taught differently.

Before I left Taiwan I learned the Miehua version.
It is different from the 7* version.

While the 7* version has more linear motion and straight punches, the miehua version has fewer straight punches.
The Mie hua version only has 2 straight punches. And just as few times does the hill climbing stance appear.

It is more like the forms Luanjie and Mantis hands.

Even though the versions are all different many of the same principles are the same.
In fact, training in these three versions has giving me the opinion of what are the important aspects of Mantis.
eg, the moves of the 2nd road of Mie Hua Beng bu has a strong correlation to the short strike method of 8 elbows. While the 7* version of this section is the same, but attacking the opponent at a bit more of a distance makes the moves appear differently.

Later, I will post some comparitive footage.
18 Elders said he will let me do apps on him so that would be soemthing to compare to other folk's versions.

Kevin

[-N-]

Im HK lineage so its only a quick 7* step in the form

craig
I learned it with more lifting than just moving to a 7 star step. The move is Chao Tui(Lift/Carry/Pickup Leg), a sweep. We used to get yelled at most severely for not lifting.

N.

[monkeyfoot]

I learned it with more lifting than just moving to a 7 star step. The move is Chao Tui(Lift/Carry/Pickup Leg), a sweep. We used to get yelled at most severely for not lifting.


From the videos I have seen I can imagine. It should in theory be a big sweep like motion seen as it is 'lower leg sprouting'. Although the sweep is simply one application to that movement. Another is simply to apply a 7* step onto the shin/foot of the opponent and strike with a mantis claw to the eyes/throat.

Btw people. I was sparring with a guy last night and was trying to pull off this movement. Does anyone find it difficult to floor someone with this move. Even if I sweep hard and claw in the opposite direction, I never get any better than just slightly messing up their balence. I have never been able to floor them as such.

craig

[Oso]

craig, just my thoughts here...

GIVEN: both people in left leads, could be right lead too

I would enter by way of grabbing the lead hand and plucking hard to bring as much of their weight forward onto the foot you are sweeping. if you don't, they will just empty that leg and retreat. optimally, hang on to that arm through the follow through of the foot action and the counter movement of your arm on the upper body. also, knock the crap out of them w/ the right hand as you step fwd w/ the lead leg before the actual sweep. sweeps w/o proper set up rarely work.

alternately: if you need to enter w/ both hands on one are you could strike the head w/ the right elbow as you coil onto the lead leg before the chop w/ arm.

hmmm, not sure that's making sense.

this seems to be an emphasized movement in a lot of our sets...or maybe, I'm emphasizing it in my training and teaching because I likes it lots....makes people go 'crunch' ;):p

[-N-]

From the videos I have seen I can imagine. It should in theory be a big sweep like motion seen as it is 'lower leg sprouting'.
It is big in the form, but smaller in application. The form shows you the angling details, and the direction of force necessary to make it work. The form shows it bigger to make it more obvious, and to ensure that the person develops the proper basic body mechanics.


Although the sweep is simply one application to that movement. Another is simply to apply a 7* step onto the shin/foot of the opponent and strike with a mantis claw to the eyes/throat.
In our line, the primary and classical application is the sweep.


Btw people. I was sparring with a guy last night and was trying to pull off this movement. Does anyone find it difficult to floor someone with this move. Even if I sweep hard and claw in the opposite direction, I never get any better than just slightly messing up their balence. I have never been able to floor them as such.
It can be difficult if your details are a little off.

- Set up and hide the sweep with cross grab high line attack with advancing footwork to force his other hand up.

- Before he makes solid contact, do an angular steal step and chao in the direction of the step.

- Your center of balance during all this needs to be slightly forward.

- Use muscles of the hip joint to generate the lifting force. It is more of hip contraction and less of quadriceps and lower leg extension.

- Keep his weight on his lead leg.

- Instead of hard swinging with the arm, thread it through fast and relaxed, then allow the force to appear suddenly. I prefer the open palm method as in Flying Goose Palm rather than the mantis claw method. I go deep with it, pressuring with the arm, and can follow up with neck breaker take down.

- Go deep. Don't think just in terms of connecting with foot and hand. Deeper is better for throws.

Also, what Oso said.

N.

[Crushing Step]

Ah, over a year off the forum and I return for a Bung Bo discussion, sweet!

Good to see both active newcomers and a few old faces around here (Oso, Mantis108, Kevin B). I think the politics and flame wars of a few years ago were worse, and drove off some very good contributors.

That being said, for my two cents I'd love to spend some time with other mantis players in demonstrating our differences hands on. One of these days I'll get back out of my shell and go visiting again.

_J

[Oso]

- Use muscles of the hip joint to generate the lifting force. It is more of hip contraction and less of quadriceps and lower leg extension.


good point...i feel like there's a subtle sink and a general contraction inward to the groin at the exact moment of the issue of power...keeps you from overextending the sweeping leg and your balance.


JJMantis: i'm sure I've asked before but I've forgotten: where in VA? I was born in Richmond and get back every once in a while.

[-N-]

good point...i feel like there's a subtle sink and a general contraction inward to the groin at the exact moment of the issue of power...keeps you from overextending the sweeping leg and your balance.
We used to get yelled at if we didn't do the sink :)

N.

[Oso]

lol, yea... I still remember my first teacher telling me I should quit and go do karate...I think he did that just to pizz me off and train harder.


so, besides 'lower leg sprouting' (which is kind of obscene sounding ;) ) what's the chinese term for the throw here?

[monkeyfoot]

so, besides 'lower leg sprouting' (which is kind of obscene sounding ;) ) what's the chinese term for the throw here?

Not sure, I thought the term was 7* leg sprouting kick :confused:

Anyways cheers guys for the replies. I will post back on sunday and share my experiences. Btw - If I was going to sweep with my left leg, is it better to lead right or lead left before I execute the sweep. If im leading right then I have the ability to create more power due to body mechanics, but then if I lead left I will have less chance of telegraphing it....

Whats your thoughts?

craig

[-N-]

The sweep we call "chao tui", lift leg would be the literal translation.

N.

[-N-]

Left vs. right lead. Depends on your setup, depends which lead he uses, depends on his reaction, depends on your preference, depends on your footwork abilities, depends depends depends :)

I'd say go with your left for now. Don't brute force power through it. Try to develop a feel for the technique. If his "wrong" leg is in front, then use a shin kick to make him move it. Also, you can chao to front of leg as well.

N.

[Sifu Darkfist]

Basic and maybe you know, but i will say it anyway.
My master always told me to sweep to the same direction the toe is pointing on the front leg. regardless of how they point it.
In body mechanics to go any other way digs then in deeper (first hand knowledge from using it). kick the foot or lift it the direction the toe is pointing and they will do the split.
for what its worth.
james

[Oso]

Yep. I don't think that necessarily goes w/o saying...i don't think I naturally said 'ok, i'm gonna do this that way'. most beginners are doing well if they connect w/ the leg and don't fall down...or, at least, that was me back then. :)


I will add this, one of my favorite things to do is to force a split and then topple them. This means sweeping perpindicular to the centerline of the foot as you say but requires the ability to make a good hopping/hooking/lifiting sweep to get them spread wide enough. NOT saying this is imminently practical...just something I've done before both from inside and outside the gates. I did have one super flexible dude look at me funny like 'wtf, do you think you are trying to do' and I had back peddle in a hurry' but no technique is 100%

[maxiaoyao]

Darkfist :"The principles behind the infamous Bung BU play a part in all my martial training
including the ancient and fierce Baji Quan. i think like the relentless mantis in all my arts. "

Is Ba Ji Quan Ancient? What kind of time line defines ancient nowerdays?

thx - mxy

[Sifu Darkfist]

Ba Ji is one of the oldest of Chinese Martial Arts.
Ancient is used for flavor in this sentence.

And yes whn compared to Tang Lang it as well as Ta JI would be considered ancient.

[monkeyfoot]

Its all relitive, tanglang would be considered ancient if compared to lets say...JKD ;)\
But then when compared to eagle claw its a very modern art.

Hmmm reminds me of the yin yang theory
craig

[Crushing Step]

JJMantis: i'm sure I've asked before but I've forgotten: where in VA? I was born in Richmond and get back every once in a while.

No problems Oso, I think it's been two years since we spoke?

I live in Suffolk.

Back on topic though, I made some personal comparisons of Tong Long and JKD back when I was first fascinated with it's history. The way it was always explained to me, was not only was TL a mixture of styles created by a master, but that it was created specifically for fighting. Not solely as an exercise or a catalog of forms. For that reason, it often amazes students of other styles to see a set played out, because it really does look like a fight. Coming from a background of "look-step-block-punch" type of forms, this was exactly what I needed. But I think even the karate-do based styles aside, TL has that applications based kind of a look and feel even compared to other kung fu.

The next thing that I always heard was that this would have been a higher martial art, originally taught to what we would nowadays call a "black sash/belt" student. It is interesting to note that Bruce Lee was against taking a light study of various arts and mushing them together. He studied lots of arts with high level teachers, and put in tons of personal effort into creating his JKD.

And a last note on JKD, for those who are strongly against all traditional CMA and all use of forms. I believe fully that Bruce Lee's core training in Wing Chun, including the traditions and the forms, are what gave him a strong foundation. To jump straight into JKD with a qualified instructor should be fine, but I would question a lower level student trying to "make up" JKD without a traditional foundation.

I'll revisit this some more, but I know I don't like to read long posts myself!

$.02

[Oso]

that's right.


Mantis as a "Higher Level" martial art:

Would that thread not be tied in to, LGY, and his teaching at the Chin Woo. As in, didn't students there complete a beginning course of 10 forms and then move on to Mantis or Eagle Claw or something? Does that train of thought go back further than that?

In Pong Lai USA, we have a 'basic training' period of 18-24 months of long fist sets and other drills before moving in to mantis sets. However, they have been reconstructed (Pong Lai'd) by Shiye Shi and Shifu Scolaro. The more I practice the true mantis forms, and teach the beginning stuff, the more connections I see and the more totally impressed I am with how well thought out the changes to the longfist material are. There is a real consistancy to it for sure.

[Oso]

didn't really finish my thought there....


there are certainly simpler forms out there than the mantis I've seen. Some hung gar sets and CLF stuff I've seen lately at tournaments are downright boring...especially since they go on for frigging ever....


but, I can see a need for something more basic to set the ground work. especially in a commercial situation where you are catering to the lowest common denominator....hmmm, that sounds bad...well, not everyone who wants to do kung fu is immediately capable of doing it, some can't w/o extreme dedicatioin to training...and by that I mean basic physical attributes...

but, i'm getting way off topic.

[monkeyfoot]

Oso thats quite a long time of basic.

My basic training started with the sets 'sab sei low tam toy' for an introduction and 'gung lik kuen' to build up strength/power in the body. This lasted over a period of 9-10 months although I completed basic a lot quicker as I trained near enough everyday (thats an average time.....takes a while longer if you come into the lowest common denominator catogary :D ).


Would that thread not be tied in to, LGY, and his teaching at the Chin Woo. As in, didn't students there complete a beginning course of 10 forms and then move on to Mantis or Eagle Claw or something?

I read something similar to that. Although LGY created SSL Tam Toy as an introduction into the mantis style. I wonder if it was still compulsory to learn 10 forms before moving onto mantis when a 'user friendly' introductory set was already created.

craig

oso: I was quite interested in the off-topicness.....I always remember my sifu telling a MASSIVE fat guy, that he would one day be able to back flip over his opponent, if strangled by a spear from behind.....I still think thats bull****.....some people just aren't cut for some styles.

[-N-]

I always remember my sifu telling a MASSIVE fat guy, that he would one day be able to back flip over his opponent, if strangled by a spear from behind.....Samo Hung was your classmate?? Dude! :)

N.

[BeiTangLang]

not so un-reasonable. Drop to your knee and bow one shoulder over. They will flip over your head quite nicely!

[maxiaoyao]

Ba Ji is one of the oldest of Chinese Martial Arts.
Ancient is used for flavor in this sentence.

And yes whn compared to Tang Lang it as well as Ta JI would be considered ancient.

I'm sorry for being ignorant (and going off topic), but wasn't Ba Ji Quan created out of many of the other martial arts, such as Mantis, Ba Gua, Xing Yi (?)...? And wasn't it popularised in the Qing Dynasty by the emperor’s body guards? A couple of hundred years makes it ancient? So the USA colonization is ancient?

Ancient is usually comparitive, yes. But in this context comparitive to the present. Again, sorry for this being off topic, just I've never heard of Ba Ji refered to as ancient before...(though it's foundations certainly could be :) )

MXY

[Oso]

Oso thats quite a long time of basic.

My basic training started with the sets 'sab sei low tam toy' for an introduction and 'gung lik kuen' to build up strength/power in the body. This lasted over a period of 9-10 months although I completed basic a lot quicker as I trained near enough everyday (thats an average time.....takes a while longer if you come into the lowest common denominator catogary :D ).

That's based on the 'hobbyist' who will only average 2 days a week. I've two students who have managed it in 11-12 months. Our two beginning sets are Babu Lien Wan and Chuju Chuen. Both modified from the original at first....I imagine similar to how LGY created the 14 Roads TT.

We also do some tan tui drills but only as drills...and other drills.



I read something similar to that. Although LGY created SSL Tam Toy as an introduction into the mantis style. I wonder if it was still compulsory to learn 10 forms before moving onto mantis when a 'user friendly' introductory set was already created.

i imagine that would have been still the case in a gov't school...but don't know for sure

craig

oso: I was quite interested in the off-topicness.....I always remember my sifu telling a MASSIVE fat guy, that he would one day be able to back flip over his opponent, if strangled by a spear from behind.....I still think thats bull****.....some people just aren't cut for some styles.

I agree, still ****ed me off and the ironic thing is that teacher is now a sensei in a karate system...albeit a good one and he can still most likely kick my ass.