The Wing Chun problem...

[Buddha_Fist]

I found the following in a German discussion forum:

"It seems to me that fighting has become in Wing Chun a Holy Grail with metaphysical proportions. It has become something that everybody is talking about, yet nobody knows or has ever seen. That's the reason why it doesn't matter in Wing Chun whether the training forges real fighters or not; it completely suffices when the training generates the believe that this is the best way to prepare oneself for a tough fight. The (supposedly) aggressive attitude towards fighting, even though fighting itself remains somewhat unreal, is one of the reasons for this phenomenon."

(Taken from http://www.wt4um.de/viewtopic.php?t=8330&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

I know that this topic has been discussed plenty of times, yet I find this post to describe rather accurately the problem prevailing in the Wing Chun scene. Robotic prearranged moves in drills that are chewed over and over 'til exhaustion + believe in an instructor who has never fought competitively to do a reality check on his real skills = Present state of Wing Chun.

[Ernie]

When there is no goal , checks and balances people can and will do anything they like and call it wing chun or what ever system they prefer .

when people create there own bubble [there drills , there test , there little universe were there idea's work because they only do the same stuff to each other ]
they will then fool themselves into thinking the have some thing , but this is the rice bowl way ;)

people just don't want to get hurt , but want to pretend they have all the skills in the world [because on paper it says so and of course the ''Sifu says'' clones ]

but this is human nature :o

[ghostofwingchun]

When there is no goal , checks and balances people can and will do anything they like and call it wing chun or what ever system they prefer .

when people create there own bubble [there drills , there test , there little universe were there idea's work because they only do the same stuff to each other ]
they will then fool themselves into thinking the have some thing , but this is the rice bowl way ;)

people just don't want to get hurt , but want to pretend they have all the skills in the world [because on paper it says so and of course the ''Sifu says'' clones ]

but this is human nature :o

I am thinking that it is not always the case of not having goal . . . but of having different goal . . . one person's or group's goal is not yardstick by which everyone is measured . . . some people play basketball for fun . . . not to be competitive basketball players . . . others want to play at NBA . . . some people play basketball for socializing . . . some just to get exercise . . . and so on . . . basketball like wc serves us I am thinking. . . we make it what we want it to be. Anyway . . . I may be completely wrong . . . but this is my thinking at present.

Thanks,

Ghost

[couch]

I am thinking that it is not always the case of not having goal . . . but of having different goal . . . one person's or group's goal is not yardstick by which everyone is measured . . . some people play basketball for fun . . . not to be competitive basketball players . . . others want to play at NBA . . . some people play basketball for socializing . . . some just to get exercise . . . and so on . . . basketball like wc serves us I am thinking. . . we make it what we want it to be. Anyway . . . I may be completely wrong . . . but this is my thinking at present.

Thanks,

Ghost

The only thing I gotta say to this (and I may avoid the comments to come later!!!):
If you play basketball for fun, exercise and socialization, you know that if you take your game to the LA Lakers, you're gonna get your butt kicked. At least that's well known. At least that I would know that I'm gonna get whooped and I can't use my "recreational" basketball skillz against an NBA player. If I want to "survive" a game of basketball with just about anyone on the planet (assuming I would be walking in the woods and someone would jump out of nowhere and force a game of one-on-one basketball with me!), I have to train as best to my ability to avoid a horrible loss. Sidenote: Just as if I met Couture in the bar and would buy him a beer instead of p!ss him off, if I saw Jordan - I may decline. ;)

Now herein lies the many paths of martial arts. I agree that many people choose many reasons for joining the martial arts. It's just that false confidence that scares me. "I do martial arts. I'm deadly."

Me opinion,
Kenton

[kj]

Now herein lies the many paths of martial arts. I agree that many people choose many reasons for joining the martial arts. It's just that false confidence that scares me. "I do martial arts. I'm deadly."

Dead on, Kenton.

Regards,
- kj

[ghostofwingchun]

The only thing I gotta say to this (and I may avoid the comments to come later!!!):
If you play basketball for fun, exercise and socialization, you know that if you take your game to the LA Lakers, you're gonna get your butt kicked. At least that's well known. At least that I would know that I'm gonna get whooped and I can't use my "recreational" basketball skillz against an NBA player. If I want to "survive" a game of basketball with just about anyone on the planet (assuming I would be walking in the woods and someone would jump out of nowhere and force a game of one-on-one basketball with me!), I have to train as best to my ability to avoid a horrible loss. Sidenote: Just as if I met Couture in the bar and would buy him a beer instead of p!ss him off, if I saw Jordan - I may decline. ;)

Now herein lies the many paths of martial arts. I agree that many people choose many reasons for joining the martial arts. It's just that false confidence that scares me. "I do martial arts. I'm deadly."

Me opinion,
Kenton

Mr. Kenton thank you for your reply! Yes . . . I agree with much of what you say. . . let us consider for moment that being best basketball player I can be is both our goal . . . let us also say that I wish to share with you that certain forms of training has been very helpful to me . . . why not just say so . . . I have found that being in good condition for example has helped my game and that when I wasn't in as good condition it made me less able to play . . . instead of making it a commandment . . . thou shalt be in top condition . . . lol . . . maybe then someone will listen and say OK maybe I should try that too . . . if you have found a good strategy why not share that you have found this works for you . . . and not as this is strategy we should all use . . . and anyone not using it is a moron . . . do you see what I am getting at? Also why be concerned about what others do . . . or feel . . . it is fine for you to say that you do not wish to have false confidence . . . that you want to know from experience you can fight . . . others may feel differently . . . take it on faith . . . maybe they are wrong . . . maybe not . . . so what . . . you can only choose for you not for others.

Thanks,

Ghost

[Phil Redmond]

I was going to write that the problem is not enough realistic training. I agree with Ernie that there are paper Tigers out there. Then I saw Kenton's post and had to agree with him as well. Everyone doesn't train to be a fighter. WC to some is a hobby. Very good post Kenton.
Phil

[Ultimatewingchun]

I found the following in a German discussion forum:

"It seems to me that fighting has become in Wing Chun a Holy Grail with metaphysical proportions. It has become something that everybody is talking about, yet nobody knows or has ever seen. That's the reason why it doesn't matter in Wing Chun whether the training forges real fighters or not; it completely suffices when the training generates the believe that this is the best way to prepare oneself for a tough fight. The (supposedly) aggressive attitude towards fighting, even though fighting itself remains somewhat unreal, is one of the reasons for this phenomenon."

(Taken from http://www.wt4um.de/viewtopic.php?t=8330&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

I know that this topic has been discussed plenty of times, yet I find this post to describe rather accurately the problem prevailing in the Wing Chun scene. Robotic prearranged moves in drills that are chewed over and over 'til exhaustion + believe in an instructor who has never fought competitively to do a reality check on his real skills = Present state of Wing Chun.


***WHICH IS WHY I've just got to laugh whenever somebody comes on this forum and tries to put down the value of frequent, real, spontaneous, hard contact sparring - with protective gear and thin, semi-fingerless gloves to protect against injuries.

[Edmund]

I thought there were a bazillion clips of German WT guys punching each others lights out with a bit of protective gear.

Not that I liked it that much but you couldn't call it a prearranged drill.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I don't think I made myself clear enough, Edmund...I wasn't criticizing Buddha_Fist's opening post - I was praising it! ;)

[Edmund]

Maybe I'm not understanding what Buddha_Fist is getting at but I thought he was criticizing WC people (esp. German) for just doing drills rather than sparring.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I thought he was just talking about the problem of wing chun robotic moves training in general - but not pointing a finger at the Germans in particular.

[Edmund]

In that case, I believe I'm an idiot.

[Buddha_Fist]

I thought he was just talking about the problem of wing chun robotic moves training in general - but not pointing a finger at the Germans in particular.

:)

Yep. That was the point. There may well be good exceptions, but the general state of Wing Chun is quite sad. And the problem was quite well described a few posts earlier with 2 words: false confidence.

[tansaujosh]

this is why in my class our sifu teaches us not only wing chun, but basic boxing, muay thai and techniques and shaloin fitness training. this shows me how all fighters are becuase alot of arts derive form each other it also lets me see how the other fighters think.

[Hendrik]

I agree with Kenton and KJ....


In my opinion,

The foundation to prepare for Figthing are:

1, one has to be able to generate significant power. For the bottom line is shutdown the opponents.

2, one has to be able to sustain or absorb some amount of significant incomming power. For the bottom line is one will get hit.

3, One has to be able to response in action with sufficient speed. For no one will stand there similar to a woodern dummy and might even action in a speed as fast as one can.


4, The more one knows and master about the variaty of technics the better one chance is. Kick, punch, lock, throw, bounce..... those are the basic.



without a right or wrong answer. How much and How far has one been in the 1,2,3,4 preparation? Without knowing the answer and fantasy about figthing is flying blind. IMHO. (eventhough the above might not applied to some born great fighter or a natural.)

Not to even mention, to get into the issue of either one is generating a pushing paper box power or a shooting spinining curve trajectory basket ball power.. and more....

seriously, if one is practicing a V2 with the SNT, sun punch, dummy....etc and havent seen a V4. How the heck is one be able even to catch or stop an incoming basket ball? Not to mention even with V4 one might not be able always guarentee to sometimes....


But then, everyone has thier view in this free will world. and why not? and I can be wrong.




just some opinions.

[ghostofwingchun]

I agree with Kenton and KJ....


In my opinion,

The foundation to prepare for Figthing are:

1, one has to be able to generate significant power. For the bottom line is shutdown the opponents.

2, one has to be able to sustain or absorb some amount of significant incomming power. For the bottom line is one will get hit.

3, One has to be able to response in action with sufficient speed. For no one will stand there similar to a woodern dummy and might even action in a speed as fast as one can.


4, The more one knows and master about the variaty of technics the better one chance is. Kick, punch, lock, throw, bounce..... those are the basic.



without a right or wrong answer. How much and How far has one been in the 1,2,3,4 preparation? Without knowing the answer and fantasy about figthing is flying blind. IMHO. (eventhough the above might not applied to some born great fighter or a natural.)

Not to even mention, to get into the issue of either one is generating a pushing paper box power or a shooting spinining curve trajectory basket ball power.. and more....

seriously, if one is practicing a V2 with the SNT, sun punch, dummy....etc and havent seen a V4. How the heck is one be able even to catch or stop an incoming basket ball? Not to mention even with V4 one might not be able always guarentee to sometimes....


But then, everyone has thier view in this free will world. and why not? and I can be wrong.




just some opinions.

Mr Hendrik I am in agreement with much of what you say . . . yes we must have 1-4 . . . though I am still confused about what bounce is . . . lol . . . you ask good question about how far person is in preparation . . . this is one thing that sparring is for I am thinking . . . so person can see for him self how his preparation is going . . . I can think of no other way . . . but this is true of all activitities I am thinking . . . it is by doing that we get feedback . . . and from feedback we can reflect on our performance . . . and from this reflection we can come up with things to try to improve . . . and experiment with those things by doing . . . this is well known experiential learning loop . . . any way while I do not think in terms of your model perhaps we are not so far apart after all . . . lol.

Thanks,

Ghost

[Mortal1]

Great post Kenton!

Thought provoking in my opinion. You really put things into perspective.

[Hendrik]

Mr Hendrik I am in agreement with much of what you say . . . yes we must have 1-4 . . . though I am still confused about what bounce is . . . lol . . . you ask good question about how far person is in preparation . . . this is one thing that sparring is for I am thinking . . . so person can see for him self how his preparation is going . . . I can think of no other way . . . but this is true of all activitities I am thinking . . . it is by doing that we get feedback . . . and from feedback we can reflect on our performance . . . and from this reflection we can come up with things to try to improve . . . and experiment with those things by doing . . . this is well known experiential learning loop . . . any way while I do not think in terms of your model perhaps we are not so far apart after all . . . lol.

Thanks,

Ghost


I agree and dont agree with Sparring. Sparring is a good exercise however it is still not real. For there is all the rules depend on who plays in who's paradigm or arena.

Furthermore, Sparring doesnt tell one everything about what is going on. IMHO.

A case is that.

Say people are using V2 type of force and V2M type of momentum (say V2 is analogous to " holding and pushing a paper box forward type of power" ) they spar with those with V4 type of force and V4M type of opponent. ( say V4 is analogous to " shooting a spining and curving basket ball type of power.)

Now, the V2 type lost.
and if one is not Aware of what happen. it is easy one can blame on not fast enough speed. Dont have enough power. The art one train has no such techinics...or get more applications or do tan sau this way......etc. and all sort of thing one can think about.

However, the main cause is V2 have a very very difficult time or cannot handle a V4 train people disregard of how long one train. because V4 is much agile and fluilld compare with V2.

IE: no matter how many time one practice and try and erro and experimenting a V2/V2M type of Tan sau standing in a Broken Arrow YJKYM one will have a difficult time handling a Basket Ball player's rush in. IMHHHO. and how is sparring is going to know that if no one make aware of the different level of forces?


Back to why Model? Model is a tool so that one can pin point a specific area about what is going on if something goes wrong. There is no Model can model all reality. But model is needed to eliminate and focus what one is looking for.

One of the problem of WCK . Thus, I have heard, is that some is so concern about application and figthing similar to one is so concern about the Cart of the carriage and totally neglected the horses. but expecting the horse to fly. and the Cart to run without horses.

Saying that ofcause we need to take good care of both the cart and the horse to have an excellent carriage.



Just some thoughts.

[ghostofwingchun]

I agree and dont agree with Sparring. Sparring is a good exercise however it is still not real. For there is all the rules depend on who plays in who's paradigm or arena.

Furthermore, Sparring doesnt tell one everything about what is going on. IMHO.

A case is that.

Say people are using V2 type of force and V2M type of momentum (say V2 is analogous to " holding and pushing a paper box forward type of power" ) they spar with those with V4 type of force and V4M type of opponent. ( say V4 is analogous to " shooting a spining and curving basket ball type of power.)

Now, the V2 type lost.
and if one is not Aware of what happen. it is easy one can blame on not fast enough speed. Dont have enough power. The art one train has no such techinics...or get more applications or do tan sau this way......etc. and all sort of thing one can think about.

However, the main cause is V2 have a very very difficult time or cannot handle a V4 train people disregard of how long one train. because V4 is much agile and fluilld compare with V2.

IE: no matter how many time one practice and try and erro and experimenting a V2/V2M type of Tan sau standing in a Broken Arrow YJKYM one will have a difficult time handling a Basket Ball player's rush in. IMHHHO. and how is sparring is going to know that if no one make aware of the different level of forces?


Back to why Model? Model is a tool so that one can pin point a specific area about what is going on if something goes wrong. There is no Model can model all reality. But model is needed to eliminate and focus what one is looking for.

One of the problem of WCK . Thus, I have heard, is that some is so concern about application and figthing similar to one is so concern about the Cart of the carriage and totally neglected the horses. but expecting the horse to fly. and the Cart to run without horses.

Saying that ofcause we need to take good care of both the cart and the horse to have an excellent carriage.



Just some thoughts.

Mr Hendrik thank you for your reply! . . . I am sorry but I do not understand when you say sparring is not real . . . are you saying it is imaginary . . . lol. I appreciate your analogy of horse and cart . . . if some one drive horse drawn cart they will see how well two work together . . . they can not tell how good horse draws cart with only horse . . . and can not tell how well cart hitches to horse withoout horse . . . the two must work together . . . and that is most clear when we drive them together . . . when we drive them together and see problem then we can begin to address or fix problem . . . maybe with adjustment of horse . . . maybe with adjustment to cart . . . maybe both . . . some times even good horse can make up for poor cart . . . and some times I might need to make changes to cart for particular horse. I understand you like model . . . we have been down this road before . . . for me I do not need model of how cart and horse should work . . . I have horse and cart for real . . . of course some one can say my driving cart with horse is not real . . . but for me it is real . . . and model is what is not real . . . model is what is imaginary . . . in imagination and in model we can have all kinds of ideas of how horse and cart should work . . . in real life experience driving cart with horse teaches me. . . at least this is my outlook at the moment . . . if model is your cup of tea that is fine too.

Thanks,

Ghost

[couch]

Great post Kenton!

Thought provoking in my opinion. You really put things into perspective.

Thanks everyone for your kind words.

I think Krishnamurti said it best by telling us to really know ourselves. Know yourself and that includes your Wing Chun, because it is part of you. Nobody owns it, it's yours!

Know your abilities, your strengths, weaknesses, etc. But I think that with some strengths and weaknesses, you will never truly know yourself if you don't step out of your comfort zone.

Again, Krishnamurti said: the best way to know yourself is to study yourself in action with another person.

With regards to Wing Chun training, I think the argument wheel keeps turning because of the way we experience (or don't experience) things. And then the way we express ourselves.

I'm going to go back to what I posted earlier as a point I want to make about the "realists" vs. "traditionalists." Oh, labels are fun, aren't they? LOL

I was training in WC after a few other arts, blah, blah and was all caught up in how EASY it was to defend against this or that. Unfortunately, I never met up with anyone proficient in what ever my mouth was running about. Until I had some first-years start at my school who were very good at BJJ.

Needless to say, I got destroyed. So I guess, when you say that you will be okay because in your club: you simulate this, or that it's easy to defeat because your club does that, it's not an accurate simulation. I understand with Hendrik that sparring isn't real, etc. The only problem is that we need a way to put the skills we have together in the closest thing to going to the worst bar in town. I want to be able to drive home from sparring and so do most people. But the aliveness, the resisting opponent is key. You need someone to not let you do something you are trying to do.

So I guess what I'm saying is that you have to be honest with yourself and it's very hard to do so. Stupid ego.

Enough jibberish,
Kenton

[Hendrik]

I am sorry but I do not understand when you say sparring is not real . . . are you saying it is imaginary . . . lol. -----


It is not Real because Every style has its rules for sparing --- what can be done and what must not be done.


IE: a point system sparing and a KO system sparing are great but they are partial in thier own way.


IE: a person who is great in kicking dominate sparing might have blind spot on grappling...etc


So its is not "real " and not imaginary either , But Partial.

and IMHO, the Blind spot habit from the Partial sparing can be a big problem. that is due to the invisible assumption of what will not happen or what will not need to be looking at.


MMA seems to address the point. IMHO.







I appreciate your analogy of horse and cart . . . if some one drive horse drawn cart they will see how well two work together . . . they can not tell how good horse draws cart with only horse . . . and can not tell how well cart hitches to horse withoout horse . . . the two must work together . . . and that is most clear when we drive them together . . . when we drive them together and see problem then we can begin to address or fix problem . . . maybe with adjustment of horse . . . maybe with adjustment to cart . . . maybe both . . . some times even good horse can make up for poor cart . . . and some times I might need to make changes to cart for particular horse. ----------

Didnt you just eleborate your ideas with the Carriage model? hahahahaha :D:D




I understand you like model . . ----------

I dont like or dislike model. Model is just for communication. otherwise, how to communicate?



IMHO, I think the V2, V4, V6 or V2M, V4M, or V6M model has lots of merit. We needs to look into the different type of force field and momentum. because that might differentiate and/or tell the story about why the same tan sau or same move doesnt work in one case versus the others.





. we have been down this road before . . . for me I do not need model of how cart and horse should work . . . I have horse and cart for real . . . of course some one can say my driving cart with horse is not real . . . but for me it is real . -------


:D :D :D in the XLM language you just have a short circuit in Layer 3. or using Layer 3 perspective of your as the Only truth. :D:D:D







. and model is what is not real . . . model is what is imaginary . . . in imagination and in model we can have all kinds of ideas of how horse and cart should work . . . in real life experience driving cart with horse teaches me. . . at least this is my outlook at the moment . . . if model is your cup of tea that is fine too. ------



To have some fun for entertainment :D

You are a ghost and I am hendrik. hendrik is a real name and hendrik's model is derive from hendrik which is a real living person.

As for A Ghost, A ghost is imaginary. so, no matter how a ghost doing real stuffs or imagination stuff. it is by default Imaginary

and the problem is the Ghost doesnt know about that . hahaha :D

[Hendrik]

The only problem is that we need a way to put the skills we have together in the closest thing to going to the worst bar in town. I want to be able to drive home from sparring and so do most people. But the aliveness, the resisting opponent is key. You need someone to not let you do something you are trying to do.

So I guess what I'm saying is that you have to be honest with yourself and it's very hard to do so. Stupid ego.

Enough jibberish,
Kenton


Kenton,


Just for discussion purpose.

IMHO.

Do you notice that we all are contradicting ourself one way or another?

Here is how I see. Just for presenting


Ie:

we will say


"Stupid ego" in one way.


Then,
we will address

" The only problem is that we need a way to put the skills we have together in the closest thing to going to the worst bar in town." with that same "Stupid ego" we refer to.





IMHO, Ego for me can mean Seperation.

We dont like seperation because seperation bring compatition, bring....etc instead of Peace and Love. Thus, we say "Stupid Ego"


But then, we also based our living or center our living in Seperation.

such as :

The only problem is that we need a way to put the skills we have together in the closest thing to going to the worst bar in town."


and in addition, the one which say "stupid Ego" is the one with Seperate itself with the one "stupid Ego". (atleast the "one " which says so is dealing at the situation similar to two seperate person in one body. One is good guy who says Stupid Ego and the one who is the Stupid ego.") However, one might not realized . The one who said Stupid Ego is infact the Stupid Ego because this is the one who Seperate or making one into two person.



So, why do I get into these?

That is because

1, if we have an inner war within, we will be in chaos whether we know about it or not. That will bring down our physical performance.

2, As Einstein Said " one cannot solve a problem which was created in the same level of thinking." Thus, the XML catagorized a Layer 4 which is a Layer above or broader then the Layer 3 which is the mental. See, we cannot solve what created in Layer 3 within the Layer 3. We need to go to Layer 4. and that is also about be able to Change perspective...etc.


due to not be able to change perspective, in general one will fall into different extreme realm such as "

1,culties (whatever my sifu said that is the Truth),

2, knowing the only truth ( I am the original kenturky fried chicken inheritor. I know the Truth and all truth about KF)

3, fantasy on wisfull saying without having a connection between body and mind (such as trying to talk Zen but have no attainment on the Awareness lever but force reasoning in the mental level or layer 3 . thus, since that is not Zen in the first place, but a mental speculation of some one, it doesnt work when it comes to applied it to the physical. Zen got to work naturally be it in awareness, mental, body, breathing...realm. for those realm are just the manifestation of Awareness, and Zen is about Awareness. Not mental realm. IMHO) ,

4, fighting blind
(IE: all day long fighting fighting and have no idea the horse is almost dead, in the Carriage analogy) ,

5, paper talk
(IE: WCK is all about Tan Bong Fook. So whatever is not Tan Bong Fook is not WCK. and Tan has to be this angle this degree this... and have no clue about V2 and V4 existances.
IE: believing Mind is he only everything, Dao....etc. Well, if one dont eat and starving to unconscious where is the mind? is mind everything or food is everything? )

6, power God ( IE: I can beat you (may be it is true may be it is just a pump up ego with no based) thus I am the God and all whatever I said is the Truth.)..........etc.


IMHO, every of the perspective above has its pro and con and can be usefull if one can avoid to be extrem-ist.



In additional, it is not wrong to polish or train one's layer 3 to be able to Will for perservation, to be able to use the intention to lead the V6M similar to an infrared tracking system...etc.

IMHO, the issue comes when one tries to force outcome, attach to and absorb in the outcome , or/and claim one's capabilities is superior due to the outcome, which will lead to fear of failure and will do anything to be able to gain control of any situations. instead of let the nature shows its course. Those are missed use of Layer 3, IMHO.


Thus, the over confident and/or the false confident....etc. IMHO is a fact which is cause by not be able to understand the subject matter. And the way out from that is EDUCATION -- Teaching about what is going on and how to handle what is goiing on and also about knowing oneself or be honest with oneself as Kenton put it. For oneself can be the major problem and it is not the WCK's problem.

(may be it is not that hard to be honest with oneself if one surrender the outcome instead of want the outcome to be expected or forcing it the way one wants.? May be it is still hard, but atleast we know there is one way we can make it, and that is go one step further from Layer 3 or mental realm centering living where the "I" is the central reference ( where the "I" is the God of the universe and it cant be wrong. :D) and entering to Layer 4 or the realm of Awareness centering living where everything is the reference (where everything is taken as equal ) but then living with surrender as the center of living is about another way of living.) IMHO




just some crazy thoughts of mine as usual. So please take it not seriously. :D

[stricker]

the way i see it the big problem in wing chun is that its such a big complicated art full of long forms and all the traditional guff. not to say something like boxing or judo doesnt also have lots of technical know how or lots of techniques. more the advantage they have over wing chun is with those arts you can just get on with it pretty quick. day one you can roll at judo maybe longer for boxing etc but still. out of all the forms in wing chun and the detatchment from real fighting (eg chisao while its a great training tool etc it dosnt look or feel like a fight) and just the whole way its so "whoever KNOWS most wins my biu tze beats your chum kiu" means its easy to get turned into a bull**** exercise of the forms and perfect technique robots the whole $$$ for knowledge thing etc etc. as ernie says no checks and balances even just within normal training. i dont see theres any politics or bull**** in boxing. are there any boxing gyms you can train at for years and NOT be able to fight??? of course some are better than others, and there are crap trainers and awesome trainers, but there are definitely some wing chun schools you can train at for years and still suck big time. of course thats not to say that wing chun sucks. i guess i just think the whole form progression thing is too restrictive and a recipe for gradings, bull**** etc etc... a complicated art thats removed from reality and its easy to mask bull**** and just go nowhere. its based on "hand me down from teacher", not "discover for your self".

wing chun teacher says "do what i say (chum kiu) not do what i do (biu tze)" mma teacher says "do whats best for you, work it out for yourself, but try this, or that..." of course both have advantages and disadvantages i wish i could reconcile the two! one day...

well those are my issues anyway :rolleyes: i guess im just feeling a bit frustrated right now hahaha.

ps dont take that as an out and out criticism of wing chun. i love it, teacher is great, etc etc. but... this is what i see as weakness from personal experience and what i see going on around me etc based on comparison with mma training.

[Hendrik]

the way i see it the big problem in wing chun is that its such a big complicated art full of long forms----

Form is not a problem. the problem IMHO is that someone doesnt see the horse and keep whipping the Cart and keep changing Cart without knowing what is the wheels. So, at the end tough luck even just want to know what is a horse and what is a cart. as for the whole carriage? may be next life time if one is lucky. :D

Just my crazy thoughts.




wing chun teacher says "do what i say (chum kiu) not do what i do (biu tze)" mma teacher says "do whats best for you, work it out for yourself, but try this, or that..." of course both have advantages and disadvantages i wish i could reconcile the two! one day... ---------

why wait for that one day? do it now? today.
My sifu taugh me close to your mma teacher example and that is 30 years ago.

[anerlich]

wing chun teacher says "do what i say (chum kiu) not do what i do (biu tze)" mma teacher says "do whats best for you, work it out for yourself, but try this, or that..."

These are false generalisations and do not match my experience, nor, I suggest, that of many. Good teachers will tailor their pedagogical approach to the requirements of the student, whatever their art.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I was training in WC after a few other arts, blah, blah and was all caught up in how EASY it was to defend against this or that. Unfortunately, I never met up with anyone proficient in what ever my mouth was running about. Until I had some first-years start at my school who were very good at BJJ.

Needless to say, I got destroyed. So I guess, when you say that you will be okay because in your club: you simulate this, or that it's easy to defeat because your club does that, it's not an accurate simulation. I understand with Hendrik that sparring isn't real, etc. The only problem is that we need a way to put the skills we have together in the closest thing to going to the worst bar in town. I want to be able to drive home from sparring and so do most people. But the aliveness, the resisting opponent is key. You need someone to not let you do something you are trying to do.

So I guess what I'm saying is that you have to be honest with yourself and it's very hard to do so. Stupid ego." (Kenton)


***GOOD POST, Kenton...

I think there are basically 5 different types of wing chun enthusiasts/practitioners.

1) Wing Chun is like a fascinating chess game to these folks - particularly when engaged in chi sao or some relatively friendly gor sao. ("Look how cool: After you made one of my arms cross the centerline while rolling in chi sao and then tried to pull off a lop sao - I immediately countered with tan da without even thinking about it. This stuff is awesome!")

Nothing wrong with this. Wing Chun can indeed be fascinating. As long as one realizes that this type of training is not about serious fighting - and doesn't create illusions within his mind about what he's doing.

2) Some old time wing chun people especially - trained basically without gloves or anything else to fight with wing chun bare knuckled - and engaged in some real fights or challenge matches (mainly back in the 1950's/60's/early 70's).

And at that time wing chun was (using this approach) considered kind of state-of-the-art.

3) People who try (or tried) to capitalize off of group 2's reputation as fighters - but were not really ever part of that group ("My wing chun is just too dangerous to be done seriously - so let's just do these drills and simulations and chi sao and forms and whatnot and let it go at that - and God help the fool who ever forces a confrontation with me or any of my students.")...LOL :cool:

4) People in the present who experiment with many different types of realistic sparring (ie.- group 2 stuff/ heavy contact w/gloves & protective gear/dealing with other styles, etc.)...or possibly do some cross training but still see themselves as mainly wing chun people, and so on.

5) People who like to argue endlessly on interent forums about wing chun, it's history, lineages, the proper way to do forms, chi sao, this...that....whatever...and don't spend enough time actually doing the art! LOL :rolleyes: :eek:

[chisauking]

You forgot the 6th type of wing chun man, Victor:

The type that practice BJJ, kick boxing, wrestling, judo, TKD, western boxing, escrima, thai boxing, etc, etc............every thing but wing chun!!!!!!!


LOL

[couch]

You forgot the 6th type of wing chun man, Victor:

The type that practice BJJ, kick boxing, wrestling, judo, TKD, western boxing, escrima, thai boxing, etc, etc............every thing but wing chun!!!!!!!


LOL

Um. Guess that wouldn't make you an "enthusiast"??

*laugh*