What actually does beat a grappler?

[phantom]

I think I agree that biting and eye gouging are pretty low percentage moves against a grappler, and probably not justifiable in most cases. Hitting him while staying on the move could work if you can knock him out with a punch or two, which is not likely. It seems to me that pressure point attacks are not always reliable. So, what actually would give you a good chance of beating a grappler? Thanks in advance.

[Chief Fox]

Most of it depends on your skill level and your opponents skill level. I don't think that ALL "grapplers" are necessariliy good fighters. A better question would be "What beats a good fighter?" The answer is, "a better fighter". If you're worried about the grapplers then you have to get comfortable in their world. I'm not saying that you have to be a Black Belt in BJJ but learning some techniques to avoid the take down and learning some escapes to get back up on your feet as soon as possible are a good thing.

Here's a little personal experience on eye gouges and how effective they are.

When I was in college I dated this girl. It turns out that she was dating a few other people as well. I went to her house one night to confront her about it and one of the other people she was dating was there. Well her and I got into a huge argument. Eventually the other guy got involved and out of the blue he pops me right in the nose. Broke it, actually. I had no formal fight training at the time but I was p!ssed off and that takes you a long way. So I go at the guy. We scuffle around a bit and end up on the ground. He's on his back, I'm on top of him but he sorta has me in a guilitine. I reach up over my head to his face, I put both of my thumbs right in his eyes and applied pressure with my fingures wrapped around his head. If you've ever had this done to you, you know it hurts. At this point I calmly said, "if you don't let go of me, I'm going to rip your eyes out." He let go. I moved my hands from his eyes to his neck and started to choke him while I was banging his head on the floor.

So the eye gouge along with some "negotiating" has actually worked for me.

FYI, I'm not proud of what I did that night. I shouldn't have gone to her house in the first place. I had been drinking though and my judgement was very clouded to say the least.

[Oso]

umm, the same thing that beats any other 'style' of fighter:

Being better than they are at the time you fight them.

[MasterKiller]

Takedown defense + clinching = staying on your feet.

[FatherDog]

So, what actually would give you a good chance of beating a grappler?

Training with grapplers.

[SevenStar]

Most of it depends on your skill level and your opponents skill level. I don't think that ALL "grapplers" are necessariliy good fighters. A better question would be "What beats a good fighter?" The answer is, "a better fighter". If you're worried about the grapplers then you have to get comfortable in their world. I'm not saying that you have to be a Black Belt in BJJ but learning some techniques to avoid the take down and learning some escapes to get back up on your feet as soon as possible are a good thing.

Here's a little personal experience on eye gouges and how effective they are.

When I was in college I dated this girl. It turns out that she was dating a few other people as well. I went to her house one night to confront her about it and one of the other people she was dating was there. Well her and I got into a huge argument. Eventually the other guy got involved and out of the blue he pops me right in the nose. Broke it, actually. I had no formal fight training at the time but I was p!ssed off and that takes you a long way. So I go at the guy. We scuffle around a bit and end up on the ground. He's on his back, I'm on top of him but he sorta has me in a guilitine. I reach up over my head to his face, I put both of my thumbs right in his eyes and applied pressure with my fingures wrapped around his head. If you've ever had this done to you, you know it hurts. At this point I calmly said, "if you don't let go of me, I'm going to rip your eyes out." He let go. I moved my hands from his eyes to his neck and started to choke him while I was banging his head on the floor.

So the eye gouge along with some "negotiating" has actually worked for me.

FYI, I'm not proud of what I did that night. I shouldn't have gone to her house in the first place. I had been drinking though and my judgement was very clouded to say the least.

On an interesting note, notice you were in a grappling situation when the gouge was used...

[TenTigers]

don't fight their fight. I'm not talking about stand up verses grappling-I'm talking about changing your perspective on grappling. Look more towards the Indonesian Silat grappling. They will go for ankle locks, armlocks, and everything breaks. Viscious stuff, but while the other guy is concentrating on mount and submission, you concentrate on breaking whetever is within reach.
The difference is in your philosophy. Don't think sport, think of survival. Don't defeat your opponent-destroy your attacker. Change your mindset.

[Chief Fox]

On an interesting note, notice you were in a grappling situation when the gouge was used...
That's true. Maybe the best time to use a gouge is in a clinch or hold situation when your opponent is very close.

[MasterKiller]

don't fight their fight. I'm not talking about stand up verses grappling-I'm talking about changing your perspective on grappling. Look more towards the Indonesian Silat grappling. They will go for ankle locks, armlocks, and everything breaks. Viscious stuff, but while the other guy is concentrating on mount and submission, you concentrate on breaking whetever is within reach.
The difference is in your philosophy. Don't think sport, think of survival. Don't defeat your opponent-destroy your attacker. Change your mindset.

Without a dominant position, you won't have the leverage to break much.

[Vash]

Chuck Norris.

[Mr Punch]

I grappled Chuck Norris once to get an eye-gouge on him. His eyelids were so tough they choked me out.

[green_willow]

Chuck Norris.


Yes I agree - Chuck Norris, David Carradine and other martial art greats will have no problem. But mere motals like us we should focus on using our side kicks to keep grapplers away.

[Royal Dragon]

Throw them on thier head, and follow up by stomping them on thier necks really hard!

[MasterKiller]

My friend told me that jumping out of trees into horse stance is usually enough to frighten grapplers away.

[David Jamieson]

to fight a style, you have to train that style to learn what it is about. simple as that.

find the places where the water slips out and hit them. :p

I think it's been said, 'train with grapplers'.

[TenTigers]

Federal Hydra-shocks +P

[Ford Prefect]

Kryptonite, imo.

[Oso]

Federal Hydra-shocks +P

that's a nice load

[Chief Fox]

I think that most grapplers beat themselves.

[Yum Cha]

There are as many ways to beat a grappler as there are to lose to a grappler, to talk about specific techniques is probably irrelevent, but attitude is, as with a wide range of things, quiet effective.

Hesitation. I know I've done it, and I think its a downfall. A grappler comes to grab you and you hesitate to lay on the hurt because he's just grabbing you at that point, or you start to play their game by trying to break a hold.

This is an important forgone opportunity, that's when most grapplers are most vulnerable, when their hands are tied up trying to hold the grip. It may go against your grain to make a hard attack against a seemingly soft attack, but just think about how soft it is as you get balled up and choked out.

Of course, the principle is relevent to any engagement, against any style: attack on the attack and attack to overwhelm and finish.

Does it work all the time, no. Is it a foolproof solution, no. Is it helpful, well, it is for me.

There is something foolproof though against a grappler.... a friend.... :-)

[sihing]

There are as many ways to beat a grappler as there are to lose to a grappler, to talk about specific techniques is probably irrelevent, but attitude is, as with a wide range of things, quiet effective.

Hesitation. I know I've done it, and I think its a downfall. A grappler comes to grab you and you hesitate to lay on the hurt because he's just grabbing you at that point, or you start to play their game by trying to break a hold.

This is an important forgone opportunity, that's when most grapplers are most vulnerable, when their hands are tied up trying to hold the grip. It may go against your grain to make a hard attack against a seemingly soft attack, but just think about how soft it is as you get balled up and choked out.

Of course, the principle is relevent to any engagement, against any style: attack on the attack and attack to overwhelm and finish.

Does it work all the time, no. Is it a foolproof solution, no. Is it helpful, well, it is for me.

There is something foolproof though against a grappler.... a friend.... :-)
This is interesting as in our school, they way My Sifu taught me, a grab or anything similar to that is a non committed attack. If someone grabs my wrist, he is not hurting me by that grab alone, so it is non committed, the other fist or feet are the things that will hurt. But in this scenerio, I have more weapons available, so I hit on this action and defend simultaneously (Wing Chun is my system), reacting to the attack and not the grab, while at the same time attaining a superior position (usually from a blindside) in relationship to my opponent.

Concerning grapplers and getting taken down, we like to use a side neutral stance, so that the lateral movement is superior. Like a train coming down the tracks, you would not turn around and out run it, but go sideways and get off the tracks, letting the force (train) go by. Same with the grappler and the shoot, use side wards movement and a control of some type simultaneously. When their balance is gone, and you can feel it, attack then. Again this is not fool proof and has timing and distancing elements to work out but it is something to consider



James

[paradoxbox]

Rule #1- Grappling does not mean groundfighting.... Grapplers are judoka, bjj, jujutsu, and any other systems that employ throws and joint locks (sambo, systema, etc).

Rule #2- Avoid getting your joints locked... It sort of sounds easier than it is to do in practice, but it's sort of not as well. Sounds strange but that's the way it is. Grapplers will take anything you give em, if you leave your hand out they'll probably lock your wrist or arm up. If they know jujutsu (refers to regular japanese jujutsu from this point on) if you leave your arm out you could findyourself on the receiving end of a shoulder throw that ends with your elbow being broken and you on your back.. It doesn't take much to do that. Keep your limbs close to yourself if you don't want to get hurt against a grappler.

If you're only a striker and don't know any grappling, make sure that the person you're fighting doesn't get any leverage on you. Basically, if they start getting one of their limbs in contact with 2 or more points on 1 of your limbs, they have leverage over you and they can break your limb very easily. I.E. http://www.bujinkanmanchester.co.uk/oni-kudaki.jpg
If you get into a situation like that you're in big trouble.

Don't let a grappler start twisting any of your joints. The moment you perceive them grabbing hold of your limbs, try to get free if you can do it without being injured.

Grappling is very good for in close and medium range work. Watch for wrist and arm/shoulder locks when you're close in, as well as sweeps and hip throws. Almost everyone and their cousin can do osotogari even without judo or jujutsu training. Look out for it because if someone does it hard enough you could wind up spinning upside down and landing on your neck.
http://modliszka.ok.w.interia.pl/osotogari.gif

At greater distances watch for grabs on your extended arms or legs (from punches or kicks) as well as shoulder throws and other high throws. These usually start with the bad guy a few feet away then he takes a big step into you to complete the throw.

For escaping ground grapplers in specific, you should get some BJJ tapes and train at a BJJ studio for a while. Just learn the basic escapes and signs to look for. Learn about sprawling and keeping your center of gravity low, and also about avoiding bjj style takedowns altogether. Learn the habits of bjj students who are not good at takedowns- there's a huge number of bjj students who are great grapplers but suck at actually getting people onto the ground. Come up with a strategy you can use in defense if you see an attacker coming in sloppily to take you down.

[unkokusai]

So, what actually would give you a good chance of beating a grappler? Thanks in advance.


.........ummmm...............grappling.

[unkokusai]

Concerning grapplers and getting taken down, we like to use a side neutral stance, so that the lateral movement is superior. Like a train coming down the tracks, you would not turn around and out run it, but go sideways and get off the tracks, letting the force (train) go by. Same with the grappler and the shoot, use side wards movement and a control of some type simultaneously. When their balance is gone, and you can feel it, attack then.


Yes, I think that if you live in 'slow-motion world' this would be a great idea!

[Mr Punch]

The answer, as has already been said may times, is grappling.

Paradoxbox makes a good point though: against those that will grab limbs keep your limbs in. Some of my aikidoka friends have been very shocked to find out, as I did when I first tried grappling in free sparring, that their demon wristlocks they've practised thousands of times can be neutralised very easily by the extremely complicated 'pulling your arm back and out of the wristlock' movement. Sorry if I'm getting too technical.

Of course what they should do if they meet this counter, which is what any wrestler/b-/j-jjer does in the same situation is follow the pull-back and run over their opponent like a Mac Truck. Harmonise with that! When the 'wa' becomes 'waaaaa'!

But as basic advice for any fighting art I would say that keeping your elbows in (or in good structure if you practise some style where they are out) and not leaving your arms out goes a long way. Karateka, boxers, ('good' TM) wing chun for example always snap their punches back, and the 'snap' back is very important.

It won't help you against a good shoot or whole body attack like, well most in grappling... but it's a start...


Yes, I think that if you live in 'slow-motion world' this would be a great idea!LMAO, yes, what helps against the shoot is if you are attacked by 80-yr-olds tai-chi-for-healthers, then you can use your super-duper Groucho Marx Kwan sidestep. You will definitely not get run over like roadkill.

[SimonM]

I played with an aikido black belt once. He had never trained in any striking arts while I have split myself between grappling and striking. The guy couldn't do squat to me.

Any serious fighter has to consider all the tools at their disposal. Grappling contains a huge variety of useful tools. So do various striking techniques including a few I've never seen trained for in any kwoon, dojo or dojyang... Like the good old Glasgow Kiss for instance. Very little will distract a grappler more than having their nose spread across their face with their enemy's forehead. Of course I think that's illegal in most NHB matches so that may not be useful... Plus a good grappler will try and control your head quickly. Anyway....

Train striking
Train grappling
Keep you hands in
Come to Shanxi and spar with me! :p :p :p

Basically what a few of the other guys said.

[Becca]

Yes, I think that if you live in 'slow-motion world' this would be a great idea!
Nope. The side nuetral stance works if you seriously train it. Despite the seeming simplicity of this technique, I would classify it is somewhat advanced, because you need to have mastered a whole host of transitions to make it work at will and also for the tricky timming. Strange as it my sound, it is also something of a sticky skill. It is most effective for keeping an attacker from entering your sphere.

One of the biggest misconceptions about side nuetral stance is that it is not static- you don't just stand there. and it is only as good as your transitions. That is probably the most practical part of traditional stance training. It's not for a whork out; it's not to strengthen your legs and core. Those are great secondary benifits, but not the main goal. The main goal is to tech your body and mind how to move in and out of good, rooted, defensable positions without become too vulnerable to attack or counter attack.

[Knifefighter]

Yes, I think that if you live in 'slow-motion world' this would be a great idea!

Well, you've got to consider the fact that sihing doesn't actually spar against experienced grapplers, so his advice is mostly theoretical.

The side neutral stance, or square stance as it is known in grappling, is actually a very good defensive posture- just not the way sihing has described the way he uses it.

[Mr Punch]

I played with an aikido black belt once.I am one. And I play with myself all the time!:eek:

I trained karate at the same time as aiki, and always sparred with other styles. I don't think the probs with aiki particulrly include not striking (they are however too numerous to mention on an unrelated thread!)- some jujutsu styles don't practise striking either and nor does wrestling; but it depends on your aims. This thread is about anti-grappling, but if you're talking mma comps or self-defence the more rounded the better.


... a few I've never seen trained for in any kwoon, dojo or dojyang... Like the good old Glasgow Kiss for instance. Trained that in my wing chun kwoon, mainly cos I dropped one on my sparring partner and on my teacher in sparring as a reflex action a couple of times and my teacher thought we should deal with it... beautifully suited to wing chun I must say!;)


The side nuetral stance works if you seriously train it.Against grapplers? Ie someone trying to throw you or take you down or shoot? No it doesn't. No stance does. What you are doing with your whole body counts - so how you're reacting or being proactive to keep your stance constantly shifting and how you are linking this through the waist/hips to your upper body, and if you're not training with grapplers fairly regularly you won't know how easy it is for them to manipulate you and sucker you into things like over-reliance on any one stance. So basically, it doesn't matter whatever stance you are training unless you are training it against grapplers.

If by 'transitions' and 'don't just stand there' you mean you are in fact changing stances, you may have a better chance, but in that case you're not talking about one 'side neutral stance'. 9 times out of 10 a 'rooted' position will get you taken down at will.

[SevenStar]

Hesitation. I know I've done it, and I think its a downfall. A grappler comes to grab you and you hesitate to lay on the hurt because he's just grabbing you at that point, or you start to play their game by trying to break a hold.

I think you're correct in listing hesitation, but incorrect with the reasoning. it's hesitation to defend the takedown, not hesitation to attack. More often than not, even if you don't hesitate on the attack, you will still get taken down.


This is an important forgone opportunity, that's when most grapplers are most vulnerable, when their hands are tied up trying to hold the grip. It may go against your grain to make a hard attack against a seemingly soft attack, but just think about how soft it is as you get balled up and choked out.

They're not that vulnerable there. It's not like the hands are out stretched and the head is unguarded. by the time the arms wrap around you, they have penetration and their head is beyond the point where you can strike them effectively.

[Becca]

I am one. And I play with myself all the time!:eek:

I trained karate at the same time as aiki, and always sparred with other styles. I don't think the probs with aiki particulrly include not striking (they are however too numerous to mention on an unrelated thread!)- some jujutsu styles don't practise striking either and nor does wrestling; but it depends on your aims. This thread is about anti-grappling, but if you're talking mma comps or self-defence the more rounded the better.

Trained that in my wing chun kwoon, mainly cos I dropped one on my sparring partner and on my teacher in sparring as a reflex action a couple of times and my teacher thought we should deal with it... beautifully suited to wing chun I must say!;)

Against grapplers? Ie someone trying to throw you or take you down or shoot? No it doesn't. No stance does. What you are doing with your whole body counts - so how you're reacting or being proactive to keep your stance constantly shifting and how you are linking this through the waist/hips to your upper body, and if you're not training with grapplers fairly regularly you won't know how easy it is for them to manipulate you and sucker you into things like over-reliance on any one stance. So basically, it doesn't matter whatever stance you are training unless you are training it against grapplers.

If by 'transitions' and 'don't just stand there' you mean you are in fact changing stances, you may have a better chance, but in that case you're not talking about one 'side neutral stance'. 9 times out of 10 a 'rooted' position will get you taken down at will.
That's what I was trying to get at. A stance, as I was taught is not something you stop in unless doing forms by-the-count. It is a snap shot. If you were to theoreticly take photos of someone experienced doing the form, the midpoint photo would look the this stance or that stance. Stances are a way to train someone new how to make it look. Then a copatant teacher will teach them how to spar from those "stances". At the higher levels there is no need for "stances", per say, becuase you have already trained your body to move the right way...

[SevenStar]

Nope. The side nuetral stance works if you seriously train it. Despite the seeming simplicity of this technique, I would classify it is somewhat advanced, because you need to have mastered a whole host of transitions to make it work at will and also for the tricky timming. Strange as it my sound, it is also something of a sticky skill. It is most effective for keeping an attacker from entering your sphere.


just sprawl...

[Becca]

... And once you get down there? I can sprawl just fine, but then get stuck. For me that is a last ditch effort; I'd rather stay upright and use what my Sifu calls the hand sweep, which starts from the side nuetral then reverses to the other side by stepping back into five-star using a modified slap block. It keeps me upright and keeps my bakc away from the attacker while redirecting him/her in a way that gives me thier back, or kidneys. And if they are not expecting it, it actually knocks them down.:cool:

[SevenStar]

... And once you get down there? I can sprawl just fine, but then get stuck. For me that is a last ditch effort; I'd rather stay upright and use what my Sifu calls the hand sweep, which starts from the side nuetral then reverses to the other side by stepping back into five-star using a modified slap block. It keeps me upright and keeps my bakc away from the attacker while redirecting him/her in a way that gives me thier back, or kidneys. And if they are not expecting it, it actually knocks them down.:cool:


you have to be mobile. Sprawl and circle around him. Then attack. Or, sprawl and get back up. Either way, sprawl. We do sprawl drills to help with such tings as getting stuck. Sidestepping, circling out, etc. really doesn't work well.

1. the grappler is usually too close for you to do it
2. all you have done is change the angle of the attack. you left one leg out, so he will now shoot for a single instead of his original double leg.

[unkokusai]

... And once you get down there? I can sprawl just fine, but then get stuck. :


Maybe you need to learn some grappling instead of the electric kung-fu slide!

[Becca]

Seven*: part of the of the trick in using the hand sweep is that they must be close and shooting for the front leg. But the front leg becomes the back leg while thier arms are deflected to the side or trapped. You are then in something of a standing side mount? Anyway, I have used it with about a 65% success rate on people outside of my school and about 40% rate on people inside my school. Anything that keeps me out of the sprawl is a viable tool, IMO.:D

unkokusai: While you are right in assuming I need more mat time, that don't meen my kung fu is usless.

[SevenStar]

Seven*: part of the of the trick in using the hand sweep is that they must be close and shooting for the front leg. But the front leg becomes the back leg while thier arms are deflected to the side or trapped. You are then in something of a standing side mount? Anyway, I have used it with about a 65% success rate on people outside of my school and about 40% rate on people inside my school. Anything that keeps me out of the sprawl is a viable tool, IMO.:D

unkokusai: While you are right in assuming I need more mat time, that don't meen my kung fu is usless.


But initially he's not shooting for the front leg... If he were, he's doing a single leg and not a double. how many of the 65% were grapplers?

[Becca]

All were MMA peeps. As to how many were grappling specialist? I'm not sure. The group I roll with isn't a formal school. More of a collection of vrious stylist who cogrigate to try thier stuff out on others and to see if they can make it work against someone who has no reason to "go along" with what they are trying. I'd love to get involved with some real grappling, but every reputable school I've found has classes on Tues. and Thurs. which are my regular KF class nights. I'm just not willing, at this point to sacrifice regular class time for a side style at this point in my training.

[SevenStar]

that's not MMA... MMA is striking and grappling. people who train multiple striking styles are not mma guys - they are just guys who cross train.

that sux that all the other schools train on tues and thurs also.

[sihing]

Well, you've got to consider the fact that sihing doesn't actually spar against experienced grapplers, so his advice is mostly theoretical.

The side neutral stance, or square stance as it is known in grappling, is actually a very good defensive posture- just not the way sihing has described the way he uses it.

Oh, sorry guys didn't know that this was an elitist thread. Sorta thought it was open for all to discuss. Won't happen again. LOL.....

Knifefighter you continually crack me up...

James

P.S. I can always sprawl too.....

[paradoxbox]

If I might interject here, I would caution that the square stance you see in judo (or somewhat similar to horse stance) all the time is not actually a really great way to stand in a fight against a grappler. It's good for balance but you are quite clearly going to get kicked in the testicles if you stand like that for long. Your front is completely open and a lot of people forget about all the bad things that can happen when the rules are gone in a real fight, but you're still standing as if you were fighting with rules. Your gut is a very vulnerable place, a shot to the balls and you're going down, a shot to the solarplexus and you may be out of the fight. Cracked floating ribs may also put you out or kill you. With your body angled, you can keep your hands low and protecting both your sides and most of your gut while still keeping your arms in a state of 'readyness' where you can throw a punch or grab very quickly. And positioning wise, you'll be in a perfect position to evade someone trying to grab you, etc.

I've "pretend kicked" to the nuts as a reminder to my friends in judo when we spar with relaxed rules, and they've changed the way they square off now. A semi-square stance with your body angled about 45 degrees is a lot better than being completely square, because if someone tries to nail you in the balls, your hip will be in their way on one side and you can take a small step back for the other side to get out of trouble. The downside is you make yourself slightly easier to throw if someone can get a leg behind your legs. It would be a good case for learning how to do backflip style escapes from sweeps..!

Another bad thing about square stances is that if the person knows certain styles of jujutsu, they may just grab onto your shirt or jacket, load up all their weight into their hands (pulling you forward) and slide between your legs on the ground. The result will be you flying upside down and landing on your back, it's called sutemi nage (sacrifice throw). Throws like that exist in judo as well but it's not practiced very often.

[SevenStar]

Your gut is a very vulnerable place, a shot to the balls and you're going down

while those are two vulnerable spots, a shot to the nads is not a guaranteed fight ender. don't rely on it.


a shot to the solarplexus and you may be out of the fight. Cracked floating ribs may also put you out or kill you.

If his hands are even remotely raised, the chances of this happening are far less.


With your body angled, you can keep your hands low and protecting both your sides and most of your gut while still keeping your arms in a state of 'readyness' where you can throw a punch or grab very quickly.

you're fighting - why keep your hands low?


And positioning wise, you'll be in a perfect position to evade someone trying to grab you, etc.

depends on the grab...


A semi-square stance with your body angled about 45 degrees is a lot better than being completely square, because if someone tries to nail you in the balls, your hip will be in their way on one side and you can take a small step back for the other side to get out of trouble. The downside is you make yourself slightly easier to throw if someone can get a leg behind your legs. It would be a good case for learning how to do backflip style escapes from sweeps..!

or simply learn how to lift the lead leg out of the sweeping legs way. Unless they are in deep (as in attempting a throw like tani otoshi) this will work fine.

[unkokusai]

unkokusai: While you are right in assuming I need more mat time, that don't meen my kung fu is usless.


I didn't say it was. I don't think it is. But you don't go to cooking school to learn how to drive.

[Sifu Darkfist]

I think I agree that biting and eye gouging are pretty low percentage moves against a grappler, and probably not justifiable in most cases. Hitting him while staying on the move could work if you can knock him out with a punch or two, which is not likely. It seems to me that pressure point attacks are not always reliable. So, what actually would give you a good chance of beating a grappler? Thanks in advance.

Baji Tang Lang out of New York Or elsewhere.

[Becca]

that's not MMA... MMA is striking and grappling. people who train multiple striking styles are not mma guys - they are just guys who cross train.

that sux that all the other schools train on tues and thurs also.
I didn't say they didn't grapple, I said that may not be their specialty. I don't grapple. Most of them have had formal training in it. I'd never realy thought about seriously grappling untill I started rolling with them. And not all schools have classes on the same days. Just the ones I thought were reputable. 'S ok, though. give me a year and I'll be able to bump up to the advanced class, which will leave my Tuesdays and Thursdays free.;) :cool:

[paradoxbox]

Most pressure point attacks are not meant to be used as the bread of an attack, they're more like the butter, if you get what I mean.. They usually don't work on enraged opponents, but they work great on subduing people who have already lost (and accept their defeat) and people who aren't expecting them.

That being said I wonder if those who doubt the effectiveness of eye gouges and eye scratching have ever been in more than a schoolyard scrap or possibly drunken haymaker brawl. They're your eyes buddy, you've got 2 of em and if they get gouged out you're going to regret it.. They don't grow back. You stick your fingers in someones eyes and 100% of the people you're fighting will do the same thing, eyes scrunched up, usually with the head back and to the side, even if they keep flailing at you...

It's not hard to hit someone in the eyes hard enough to blind them for a while, even if they're a charging 400 pound hulk sumo wrestler.. It's a really nasty feeling, like being hit by a hard boxers punch in the face. But it doesn't take much effort to do it. If you can reach their head, you can hit their eyes. And you can't train your eyes to take damage like you can on most other places of your body. I definately wouldn't call it a low percentage move. It's probably the highest percentage thing you could ever do with your hands in a fight. Girls have an advantage of long nails for gouging. But you have to weigh the concequences, is the threat you face to your safety worth blinding a person possibly permanently. Usually the answer is no. I think someone else in this thread mentioned the eyeball pressure thing he used in a fight.. It's a good example of what just a little pressure can do.. It's not a nice feeling. Actually tearing someones eyeball out, well it's disgusting but extremely easy to do, I've seen a person get hit by a baseball and their eye popped out. Doesn't take much.

>you're fighting - why keep your hands low?<
Who's to say you're fighting already? Could be you just see a guy that looks like he might want a piece of you. And your hands don't need to be low. They just need to be covering your midsection. Having your arms up at neck height (boxing height) against a grapler is risky, if they get ahold of your arms you're going to have a hard time getting away from them when your arms are that high. You have more options when things are low or at mid level. Having them at mid level also gives you the advantage if someone tries to perform kumiuchi on you to throw you or just jerk you around (lapel & sleeve grab, or more common in bar fights just a double collar grab). You have an instant shoulder lock available to you if they try it. Wrap your arm around theirs, step back with the trailing leg then kick their feet out from under em as their shoulder locks up.. Couldn't do that if standing square, you'd run out of time and the positioning would be all wrong.

>depends on the grab... <
By standing at a 45 degree angle to a person you're only giving them 1 side to grab. If they try to grab the other side of you they'll overextend and they're easy to throw or armbar. By being at a 45 degree angle you can also move in any direction faster than you can in a square stance, and less of your body will be where he was trying to grab or takedown in the first place. This ties in with keeping your hands low, sometimes someone might actually try to grab your leading arm for a throw or lock. Big mistake if you're standing 45 degrees toward them. If you're a good kicker it's a good angle to be at to drive into them.

>or simply learn how to lift the lead leg out of the sweeping legs way. Unless they are in deep (as in attempting a throw like tani otoshi) this will work fine.<

If they're in this close already and throwing you, they probably have you not only for a sweep but they have almost all your weight on their hip, whether or not you jump out of the way of their legs you're getting thrown. Everyone should learn a few backflip escapes even if it never helps them in fighting, it's a good skill to have if you ever fall backwards off a roof or some other place. At least with a backflip escape you put yourself outside their range for another throw, when you jump over their leg you're not a lot better off than you were before they tried to sweep you. Jumping to avoid a sweep is obviously the better solution but if the guy has any kind of control of your balance, jumping isn't going to do much for you. Maybe you'll get lucky and land on his leg and break it. Unlikely though. With the backflips you can use the momentum of the throw to land yourself back on your feet.

If you are dodging some guys sweeps from a distance while he's holding onto you, you've already screwed up enough. The downfall of judo is no standing armlocks. Sweeps are useless unless the bad guy is holding onto you somewhere, and if he's holding onto you and you're far away enough to jump over his legs, you ought to have cracked his elbow by now.. If he's in closer you need to examine alternatives.

[Reggie1]

Who's to say you're fighting already? Could be you just see a guy that looks like he might want a piece of you. And your hands don't need to be low. They just need to be covering your midsection. Having your arms up at neck height (boxing height) against a grapler is risky, if they get ahold of your arms you're going to have a hard time getting away from them when your arms are that high. You have more options when things are low or at mid level. Having them at mid level also gives you the advantage if someone tries to perform kumiuchi on you to throw you or just jerk you around (lapel & sleeve grab, or more common in bar fights just a double collar grab).
That sounds like a lot of theoretical stuff.

#1--How do you know this guy's a grappler? If you're about to get in a fight w/ a stranger it's probably not safe to assume anything.
#2--You should protect your head at all times. I'd guess that many grapplers out there would be smart enough to punch you in the face if your hands are low. Plus, any grappler who has cross trained/has an interest in MMA-type fighting knows about using punches to set up a takedown.
#3--You still have a lot of options with your hands up. Your elbows are still down protection your midsection and you can still sprawl from this position. Plus it also allows the elbow to the back / back of neck / head if you are fighting dirty.

[FatherDog]

Oh, sorry guys didn't know that this was an elitist thread. Sorta thought it was open for all to discuss. Won't happen again. LOL.....

Not paying much heed to the advice of people who have never sparred with experienced grapplers on "how to beat a grappler" isn't being elitist; it's being sensible.

[unkokusai]

Everyone should learn a few backflip escapes even if it never helps them in fighting, it's a good skill to have if you ever fall backwards off a roof or some other place. At least with a backflip escape you put yourself outside their range for another throw, when you jump over their leg you're not a lot better off than you were before they tried to sweep you. Jumping to avoid a sweep is obviously the better solution but if the guy has any kind of control of your balance, jumping isn't going to do much for you. Maybe you'll get lucky and land on his leg and break it. Unlikely though. With the backflips you can use the momentum of the throw to land yourself back on your feet.

If you are dodging some guys sweeps from a distance while he's holding onto you, you've already screwed up enough. The downfall of judo is no standing armlocks. Sweeps are useless unless the bad guy is holding onto you somewhere, and if he's holding onto you and you're far away enough to jump over his legs, you ought to have cracked his elbow by now.. If he's in closer you need to examine alternatives.

"backflip escapes"? :rolleyes:

"unless the bad guy is holding onto you"? :rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

That being said I wonder if those who doubt the effectiveness of eye gouges and eye scratching have ever been in more than a schoolyard scrap or possibly drunken haymaker brawl. They're your eyes buddy, you've got 2 of em and if they get gouged out you're going to regret it.. They don't grow back. You stick your fingers in someones eyes and 100% of the people you're fighting will do the same thing, eyes scrunched up, usually with the head back and to the side, even if they keep flailing at you...

It's not hard to hit someone in the eyes hard enough to blind them for a while, even if they're a charging 400 pound hulk sumo wrestler.. It's a really nasty feeling, like being hit by a hard boxers punch in the face. But it doesn't take much effort to do it. If you can reach their head, you can hit their eyes. And you can't train your eyes to take damage like you can on most other places of your body. I definately wouldn't call it a low percentage move. It's probably the highest percentage thing you could ever do with your hands in a fight. Girls have an advantage of long nails for gouging. But you have to weigh the concequences, is the threat you face to your safety worth blinding a person possibly permanently. Usually the answer is no. I think someone else in this thread mentioned the eyeball pressure thing he used in a fight.. It's a good example of what just a little pressure can do.. It's not a nice feeling. Actually tearing someones eyeball out, well it's disgusting but extremely easy to do, I've seen a person get hit by a baseball and their eye popped out. Doesn't take much.

gouging is not high percentage. Gouging would actually be easier to do in a grappling situation, because you have the person's limbs and body under control. Not all girls have long nails. Notice that chief fox was in a grappling situation when he applied the gouge.


Having your arms up at neck height (boxing height) against a grapler is risky, if they get ahold of your arms you're going to have a hard time getting away from them when your arms are that high.

no...if the grappler is in that close to you, you are already in the dangerzone anyway. Any fighter worth his salt will tell you that your hands need to be raised. you need something to protect your face. With MMA guys, what usually precedes a takedown? strikes. Strike high and shoot low. if your hands are down, his strikes may catch you.


You have more options when things are low or at mid level. Having them at mid level also gives you the advantage if someone tries to perform kumiuchi on you to throw you or just jerk you around (lapel & sleeve grab, or more common in bar fights just a double collar grab). You have an instant shoulder lock available to you if they try it. Wrap your arm around theirs, step back with the trailing leg then kick their feet out from under em as their shoulder locks up.. Couldn't do that if standing square, you'd run out of time and the positioning would be all wrong.

so what? t step into them and throw o uchi gari. There are endless things you can do...what ifs are pointless though, so I won't get into that any further.



By standing at a 45 degree angle to a person you're only giving them 1 side to grab. If they try to grab the other side of you they'll overextend and they're easy to throw or armbar.

my favorite grip for harai goshi is done by grabbing one arm and wrapping my other arm around his waist. By standing 45 degrees, you are making that grip easier for me. Like I said, what ifs are endless and pointless.



If they're in this close already and throwing you, they probably have you not only for a sweep but they have almost all your weight on their hip, whether or not you jump out of the way of their legs you're getting thrown.

nope, I do it all the time. Stepping out is a very common escape to many throws and sweeps. Just like anything else, it's all in the timing.



The downfall of judo is no standing armlocks. Sweeps are useless unless the bad guy is holding onto you somewhere, and if he's holding onto you and you're far away enough to jump over his legs, you ought to have cracked his elbow by now.. If he's in closer you need to examine alternatives.

standing arm locks suck, IMO. To sweep, he doesn't havae to be holding onto you - you only need to have a hold on him. I never said jump over his legs - I said step. Big difference.

[Knifefighter]

The square stance is the best defensive stance to use if you do not want to be taken down in a pure grappling situation. It is much easier to take someone down who is in a staggered stance.

The staggered stance is preferrable if you are in a street or MMA situation.

Keeping your hands down or at mid level is completely stupid in any situation, whether it is street, MMA, or pure grappling.

Almost all standing arm locks are pretty useless against someone who has half a clue. That's why you will almost never see standing arm lock finishes in any MMA or grappling competition.

[Knifefighter]

That being said I wonder if those who doubt the effectiveness of eye gouges and eye scratching have ever been in more than a schoolyard scrap or possibly drunken haymaker brawl.

I've taken hard shots to the eyes on two separate occasions. One of those involved the thumb going into the eye socket. The other one resulted in loss of sight in the affected eye for about a day. Neither of those stopped me from continuing to fight.

[unkokusai]

The square stance is the best defensive stance to use if you do not want to be taken down in a pure grappling situation. It is much easier to take someone down who is in a staggered stance.
.


Ah...................no.

[Knifefighter]

Seven*: part of the of the trick in using the hand sweep is that they must be close and shooting for the front leg. But the front leg becomes the back leg while thier arms are deflected to the side or trapped.

Then these people don't know how to do a single leg attack. The single leg setup requires that you be putting your weight on your front foot. This prevents your front leg from moving and becoming your back leg.

[Knifefighter]

Ah...................no.

unkokusai-
How much and what kind of grappling experience do you have?

[unkokusai]

unkokusai-
How much and what kind of grappling experience do you have?


I have about 29 years of wrestling experience. And you?

[Knifefighter]

4 years high school folkstyle wrestling.
4 years college folkstyle and freestyle wrestling.
12 years Brazillian Jiu Jitsu and submission grappling.

What type of competitions have you done?

[unkokusai]

4 years high school folkstyle wrestling.
4 years college folkstyle and freestyle wrestling.
12 years Brazillian Jiu Jitsu and submission grappling.

What type of competitions have you done?


Um..........wrestling competitions.:eek:


What exactly are you looking for?


I was pretty successful in the old college days, have kept with it all along, and I have wrestled overseas as well.

Do I meet your criteria yet? Any other questions? Need more details?

[Becca]

Then these people don't know how to do a single leg attack. The single leg setup requires that you be putting your weight on your front foot. This prevents your front leg from moving and becoming your back leg.
That is where the kung fu style transitions come in. Remember, what I was describing ain't a grappling move. It's an anti grappling move from a kung fu style. I won't tell you what you do wrong with your wresting, if you don't correct my kung fu.

Well, some people on this board I will pay attention to. But to paraphrase FatherDog, not carring two cents for the oppinion of the clueless on the subject is common sence...:)

[unkokusai]

It's an anti grappling move


There's no such animal.

[Knifefighter]

What exactly are you looking for?

Just checking to see what your wrestlng background is in terms of actual application against other skilled wrestlers, since there are a lot of people who post about wrestling who have never actually wrestled against other experienced wrestlers.

What is it you don't think is correct, the square stance being used more as a defensive stance than the staggered or the staggered being easier to score on than the square or both? What is your reasoning behind your disagreement?

And, yes, there is such a thing as anti-grappling. For a classic example of this, all you have to do is watch the UFC fight in which John Lewis completely shut down the grappling game of Lowell Anderson.

[unkokusai]

Just checking to see what your wrestlng background is in terms of actual application against other skilled wrestlers, since there are a lot of people who post about wrestling who have never actually wrestled against other experienced wrestlers..

I think I've got that covered pretty well.


What is it you don't think is correct, the square stance being used more as a defensive stance than the staggered or the staggered being easier to score on than the square or both? What is your reasoning behind your disagreement?.

Both. Either stance is used by the wrestler based on his own game plan for offense and defense. He will tend toward the stance that fits his strengths and tendencies. Niether is "better" or "easier" for this or that in and of itself. Such decontextualized generalizations are foolish.


And, yes, there is such a thing as anti-grappling.

I don't buy that at all. There is just grappling. If someone's defense is better than another's offense its still grappling.

[Michaelwalter77]

I am a Kung Fu guy and my best friend is a Brazilian Jiujitsu brown belt. We spar regularly and have both learned alot.

First, they have to shoot in on you . You are already at an advantage since you know their intentions. Knees from the clinch, a good sprawl and side stepping are good tools to throw your opponent off.


Most of todays grapplers are doing UFC type grappling which does not allow small joint manipulations. Qinna opens up a whole new world of whop ass on "grapplers"

Wanderlei (vandrelei) Silva is a Muay Thai practitioner in the nhb scene (pride fc)
he is so good at his game that he forces the grapplers to fight on his terms. His reversals and escapes are exellent, he is back on his feet pounding them in no time.

Not that I am, but I believe that if you are good enough at what you do, you can force anyone to fight your fight.

As with Shaolin, the staff is the only true weapon, yet the monks practice all the other weapons. Why, so they have an understanding of what their opponent is using against them.

Study a little grappling so you can find out and exploit their weaknesses.

[unkokusai]

First, they have to shoot in on you . .


"Have to"? Says who?

[unkokusai]

Qinna opens up a whole new world of whop ass on "grapplers".


Don't bet your *** on that one.

[Michaelwalter77]

Oh boy, here we go.

of course there are several other options depending on the grappling art. He did not specify what type of grappling situation or the background of the grappler. Since he is a stand up fighter, he probably wants to keep a distance, a good way to close the gap would be to shoot in.

I sincerely apologize for giving one option amongst millions of sinerios:eek:

I assumed that he was talking about one of those "cookie cutter" grapplers who watches ufc's all day and learned 2 techniques and wants to take on the world.

[unkokusai]

I assumed that he was talking about one of those "cookie cutter" grapplers who watches ufc's all day and learned 2 techniques and wants to take on the world.


That's ridiculous. You need at least 3 techniques to conquer the world.:cool:

[Michaelwalter77]

Don't bet your *** on that one.

Now I have to give more detail.

5 years ago is when my friend and I started cross training. Prior to the cross training I thoufgt that Kung Fu was the best.

I entered an amature NHB tournament in NYC. I was taken down fast and he layed on top of me for 5 minutes. He won for controlling the fight.

That opened my eyes.

I started training with my friend in BJJ.

I trained in BJJ with a former pride fighter also.

I went to many seminars conducted by Dan Senern, Royler Gracie, Frank Shamrock and Marcello Mello.

I was starting to turn my back on Kung Fu, Until I started attending Qinna seminars with Yang Jwing Ming.

I started employing those techniques on my friend and they were very effective.

I have been to 4 grapplers quest tournaments and won 3 matches and 2 matches at a naga tournament using techniques that I learned from Yang.

I think that qinna is something that a typical (not a master like you) grappler wont expect.

[unkokusai]

I have been to 4 grapplers quest tournaments and won 3 matches and 2 matches at a naga tournament using techniques that I learned from Yang. .


That's great. Congratulations. You won those matches based soley on small joint manipulation?

[unkokusai]

I think that qinna is something that a typical grappler wont expect.


Perhaps you're right. By that logic, singing the Star Spangled Banner as loudly as possible continuously throughout the match would also be effective.

[Michaelwalter77]

That's great. Congratulations. You won those matches based soley on small joint manipulation?

No, I sang the Star Spangeled Banner and then whispered sweet nothings in his ear.:D

[unkokusai]

No, I sang the Star Spangeled Banner and then whispered sweet nothings in his ear.:D


Most unexpected! :eek:

[Merryprankster]

Like a train coming down the tracks, you would not turn around and out run it, but go sideways and get off the tracks, letting the force (train) go by. Same with the grappler and the shoot, use side wards movement and a control of some type simultaneously.


Three words "Turning the corner." If you don't know what that means, go train with some grapplers :D


As far as what works against the "good grappler?"

My worst nightmare is a Chuck Liddell type fellow. Heavy hands, good in the clinch, good sprawl.

[SevenStar]

That is where the kung fu style transitions come in. Remember, what I was describing ain't a grappling move. It's an anti grappling move from a kung fu style. I won't tell you what you do wrong with your wresting, if you don't correct my kung fu.

Well, some people on this board I will pay attention to. But to paraphrase FatherDog, not carring two cents for the oppinion of the clueless on the subject is common sence...:)


becca, he's talking about the same thing I was. you're setting yourself up for the single leg here...

[Becca]

becca, he's talking about the same thing I was. you're setting yourself up for the single leg here...
Yep. And that's what I want...:)

[Hoop]

The guys who excel at knocking out grapplers in MMA are very good grapplers themselves.

For example,

V. Silva - BJJ Black Belt

Chuck Liddell - College Division 1 wrestler, long time BJJ player (purple belt?)

A. Arlovski - two time Sambo champ


If you want to defend against a specific game, learn that game. Otherwise, just train hard and don't worry about it.

[SevenStar]

Yep. And that's what I want...:)

No, it's not, from your description... you said you moved to that position AFTER he shot in. Meaning he shot a double, then you moved to that position. If that's the case, you used the setup against the wrong technique. What we are saying is if you move to that position after my initial shot, then I will go for a single.

[SifuAbel]

The whole "liddell knocks people out becasue of his grappling skills" is skewed. BJJ didn't teach him how to punch or kick. You don't need to be a world class wrestler to learn take down defenses. Crediting his knock out skills to grappling is not accurate.

He hasn't been on his back much for a while now.

[ShaolinTiger00]

The whole "liddell knocks people out becasue of his grappling skills" is skewed. BJJ didn't teach him how to punch or kick. You don't need to be a world class wrestler to learn take down defenses. Crediting his knock out skills to grappling is not accurate.

He hasn't been on his back much for a while now.

I understand your thought but think about this Abel.

Chuck is a Div. 1 wrestler which makes him VERY hard to take down. His grappling knowledge keeps him standing and allows him to use his KO power. His wrestling doesn;t make his striking "better" but because he's also a good striker, wrestling helps him stay in this phase of fighting

-You stand with him: you risk getting KTFO

-You want to clinch him: you risk getting KO'ed on the way in and chances are that he'll stop the shot, the clinch etc.

-You want to beat him with submissions: You've got to get him on the ground first

[SevenStar]

I understand your thought but think about this Abel.

Chuck is a Div. 1 wrestler which makes him VERY hard to take down. His grappling knowledge keeps him standing and allows him to use his KO power. His wrestling doesn;t make his striking "better" but because he's also a good striker, wrestling helps him stay in this phase of fighting

-You stand with him: you risk getting KTFO

-You want to clinch him: you risk getting KO'ed on the way in and chances are that he'll stop the shot, the clinch etc.

-You want to beat him with submissions: You've got to get him on the ground first

Bingo. It's his proficiency in grappling that allows him to use his hands. If he had a sucky grappling game, he'd be much easier to take down and his hands wouldn't do him much good. Let me challenge you to this: Name 5 PURE strikers that are / were champions in pro mma. You can't. They have all done some form of grappling. This tells us that without grappling, the striking game can be negated.

[Shaolinlueb]

shoot em. nuff said ;)