Fight Conditioning

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey guys and gals,
I think there was a thread close to this recently so sorry for the redundancy, but I'm interested in this.

What stuff do you do to prepare yourself for competitions?

Strength and endurance training

Or whatever it is that you train or don't train because it doesn't give you that 'biggest bang for buck' thing


We have a guy in our club that is training for comps and I'm just wondering what it is that you guys do to keep yourself in fight condition.

Really appreciate it.

Thanx,
:)

J

[ghostofwingchun]

I am sorry Mr. Bussey but what kind of competition are you asking about . . . I am thinking that conditioning will be competition specific.

Thanks,

Ghost

[lawrenceofidaho]

Jeff,

You can get some great ideas by checking out the workout logs of Andrew S. on the main forum. (Combine his; education, practical experience, and the amount of research he's done specifically into those areas, and you're hard pressed to find a better resource for valid information.)

-Lawrence

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Ghost,
I'm talking about sparring so anything that would keep / get you conditioned for that

lawrenceofidaho,

Thanks, I'll check that out.

J

[stricker]

ok basically i think the most important thing is to do with how your energy systems are conditioned (eg oxidative, glycotic, phosphagen). so no point going for 10 mile jogs etc. you need to work out specifically how you think your fights are going to be, eg round length and what your workload is during each round. so at my mma club if someones buiding up to a thai bxoing fight (3 min rounds) they'll do everything in 3 minute rounds (eg. 5 x 3 min rounds on pads) and that should go for your running etc too. for an mma fight (5 min rounds) again do say 3 x 5 min rounds. so it really depends on what sort of fight your entering etc. one really good thing to do is sprint work or intervals, so for 5 minute rounds do jog for 10s, sprint for 10s, sprawls for 10s. thats a pretty typical mma fight routine. also its really important to use exactly the same rest intervals as your competition, and something else we do is make sure the last 30s of each round you work as hard as possible, eg chain punch solid the last 30s or something.

again really it depends on what sort of comp your doing and your game...

strength, speed and technique are different. for strength you really want weights for best results etc but the above is good for your base fight conditioning. its what my mma club do anyway and has got results so...

ps if you do the sprint intervals eg several 5 minute rounds of 20s jog-10s sprint or whatever dont do too many times a week (probably 2x if your an am) as youll overtrain and mess yourself up.

hope that helped.

[Edmund]

As others have said, it depends of the format of comp, Jeff.

In our club, we do amatuer MT matches which are 3x2 minute rounds or 3x3 minute rounds. A single match not tournament. You need an even mix of strength and endurance. Long jogs can help due to the amount of nerves you have in the hours before the fight which can tire you out. But the majority would be rounds of padwork, bagwork and sparring.

If you were doing a TKD tournament, it would be 3x3 minute rounds per match and most times you can have up to 5 or 6 matches in a tournament on a single day. You need some serious endurance and speed work for it but a lot of strength and power is not required.

[AndrewS]

Lawrence,

thanks for the kind words, but I'd say the weakest part of my training approach is my conditioning work, partly 'cos I'm not actively training for an event now, and partly 'cos true high intensity conditioning work fries me to the point where I lose the ability to recover and get anything else done afterwards, and generally don't have the energy after 2-3 other sessions in a day to do it. I tend to get good results when I build energy systems work on top of lots of more mellow recovery-style GPP, then spar on top of that. This follows the classic GPP->SPP-> actual sport model.

A really good line from Adam Singer- conditioning should be directed to both the parameters of the event and the *style of the individual fighter*. Hence, an 'explode, rest, explode, rest' sort of fighter should base their conditioning on somewhat different patterns than someone who's always going, or, for instance, a grappler who basically plays python.

A few additional comments-

GPP-
basic conditioning to raise work capacity and help you recover from other workouts. I try to do my GPP so it works similar things to my strength or speed sessions, aiding recovery, and try to get some work on muscular imbalances and mobility out of it at the same time. I tend to do better with these sorts of workouts if they don't have any 'oh dear lord not tonight' factor- leaving that to SPP sorts of things.

SPP-
I throw energy system work under this category- lactic acid training, tabata intervals, bar complexes working similar force/time characteristics to the activity you seek to prepare for, as well as sport-specific drills done for conditioing purposes (ideally *simple* skills that won't decay under fatigue easily). With a larger group, isolation sparring working specific stuff for time would fit nicely under this heading).

So, in response to the initial post, before coming up with a program for this guy you might want to think about:
1). His strength and speed development (does he need work for strength or speed)
2). Injury prevention- i.e. if he's got a bad shoulder, then maybe jerks at a high % rm1 aren't a good exercise to select.
3). Characteristics of the event
4). The time he has available
5). His characteristics as a fighter - what tempo is he good at and how to play to that.

Hope that helps,

Andrew

[ghostofwingchun]

Hey Ghost,
I'm talking about sparring so anything that would keep / get you conditioned for that


Thank you for clarification Mr. Bussey! Would not sparring itself then be the best way to get in condition and stay in condition?

Thanks,

Ghost

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey guys,
Thanks alot for your suggestions.

Striker and Edmund,
Right now he's building his endurance punching for 3 minutes, kicking for 3 minutes and elbows and knees for 3 minutes with no break in between so he's going full out for 9 minutes straight (I actually think he's doing almost 6 minutes of punching but not sure)
I'll pass on what you guys said though.

Andrew S
I can't seem to find the workout logs that lawrence was talking about. Could you point them out to me?
Thanks

Ghostofwingchun
Sparring is a definite, but there are things you can build up outside of the ring or sparring session. The areas of where he should concentrate on will be brought out during those sparring sessions.

Thanks again

J

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey again,
I've got a question for you guys

This guy I'm talking about is pretty stong, so in your opinions, would you keep building on that strength or let the strength training slide a bit and work more on endurance to be more well rounded. The strength thing is only based on what I've seen in class. I know that he was power lifiting for a while but I have no idea what kind of weight he was lifting.

J

[ghostofwingchun]

Mr. Bussey I am wondering . . . if condition is individual thing . . . how can there be cookie cutter approach to fit your needs? I am thinking that if person is sparring . . . regularly . . . they will see if they need extra work . . . if they need to work on wind because they become winded in sparring . . . if they need to work on muscular endurance because they tire in sparring . . . or whatever . . . then they can come up with supplement exercise to suit them . . . this is my thinking at moment.

Thanks,

Ghost

[Jeff Bussey]

Ghost
I agree there isn't a template that's out there, that if everyone follows it then you're good to go.

I'm just wondering what people are doing to get/keep themselves in shape for that. If there's a push-up program that develops strength I'd like to hear about it, if there's certain excercises for explosive power, I'd like to hear about them as well. Then he can work on building up his weaknesses by maybe doing some of those routines.

J

[ghostofwingchun]

Ghost
I agree there isn't a template that's out there, that if everyone follows it then you're good to go.

I'm just wondering what people are doing to get/keep themselves in shape for that. If there's a push-up program that develops strength I'd like to hear about it, if there's certain excercises for explosive power, I'd like to hear about them as well. Then he can work on building up his weaknesses by maybe doing some of those routines.

J

Mr. Bussey I think you indirectly refer to interesting issue . . . is person getting what they need to reach their goals from their training in the first place? I am thinking that if developing into really good wc fighter is person's goal . . . and I am not saying everyone should have this goal mind you . . . are they training with person or group that can truly help them reach goal . . . if they are then I am thinking individual conditioning would be part of training already . . . just like conditioning is part of thai boxer's training . . .how does thai boxer train to get into shape to fight . . . this is what his training is for . . . lol . . . there is no supplement needed by thai boxer . . . I am thinking if person needs to do supplement then proper training is lacking . . . those things should already be part of training. . . so it may be worth finding group that already trains to fight and join it . . . do you see what I mean?

Thanks,

Ghost

[AndrewS]

Jeff,

here's the link
<http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35800>


Ghost,

your point seems to be that thai boxers (and other combat athletes) have conditioning built into their practice. This is valid- training yourself into shape with your sport works, but is *most* effective for beginning athletes- as you get more flight time, you get more efficient, and just performing your chosen activity will produce lower demands on you, lessening the conditioning effect. Additionally, skills performed under conditions of extreme fatigue can recruit different motor pathways which are less efficient, essentially teaching you do things wrong and sloppily and decaying your technique, hence only the most basic motor skills from said chosen sport should be used if you choose to train this way, using a limited rep range, changing what is being used before decay sets in.

Additionally, certain qualities are most rapidly and efficiently if not *solely* developed by other training modalites. Speed, agility, joint mobility, limit strength, speed-strength- all of these things can be specifically developed *much* more efficiently by various programs, as contrasted with just roadwork, bagwork, pads, and sparring. This approach has done very well for a number of modern fighters- Evander Hollyfield, Randy Couture, and Frank Shamrock being notable examples of people notorious for using cutting edge conditioning methods and crediting those methods with their successes.

Andrew

[sihing]

Mr. Bussey I am wondering . . . if condition is individual thing . . . how can there be cookie cutter approach to fit your needs? I am thinking that if person is sparring . . . regularly . . . they will see if they need extra work . . . if they need to work on wind because they become winded in sparring . . . if they need to work on muscular endurance because they tire in sparring . . . or whatever . . . then they can come up with supplement exercise to suit them . . . this is my thinking at moment.

Thanks,

Ghost

Ghost,

Yeah we all are individuals, but we are all still human, basically the same. What works in general for most athletes will work well for you. The key to it is to tweak it specifically for you when you have the correct knowledge with it. For example when weight lifting, depending on what you want to accomplish with it, you find a routine from some source then follow it, eventually you will find out a few things. Which muscles build faster than others, what muscles are naturally stronger than others, what exercises work better than others for a particular muscle group, how much time between sets works best for you, and so on....This is the tweaking part of the program and it takes a little time to accomplish this.

For fighting conditioning, of course performing the task it self would be recommended, but fighting all the time in training could lead to injuries, so there has to be supplemental exercises that can replace things for safety purposes. I'm no expert on this subject as I have never really trained someone for a competition, so I would ask around or find some information about the subject and then build up a program from their for my fighter.


James

[sihing]

Jeff,

here's the link
<http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35800>


Ghost,

your point seems to be that thai boxers (and other combat athletes) have conditioning built into their practice. This is valid- training yourself into shape with your sport works, but is *most* effective for beginning athletes- as you get more flight time, you get more efficient, and just performing your chosen activity will produce lower demands on you, lessening the conditioning effect. Additionally, skills performed under conditions of extreme fatigue can recruit different motor pathways which are less efficient, essentially teaching you do things wrong and sloppily and decaying your technique, hence only the most basic motor skills from said chosen sport should be used if you choose to train this way, using a limited rep range, changing what is being used before decay sets in.

Additionally, certain qualities are most rapidly and efficiently if not *solely* developed by other training modalites. Speed, agility, joint mobility, limit strength, speed-strength- all of these things can be specifically developed *much* more efficiently by various programs, as contrasted with just roadwork, bagwork, pads, and sparring. This approach has done very well for a number of modern fighters- Evander Hollyfield, Randy Couture, and Frank Shamrock being notable examples of people notorious for using cutting edge conditioning methods and crediting those methods with their successes.

Andrew

Good post...

JR

[ghostofwingchun]

Ghost,

your point seems to be that thai boxers (and other combat athletes) have conditioning built into their practice. This is valid- training yourself into shape with your sport works, but is *most* effective for beginning athletes- as you get more flight time, you get more efficient, and just performing your chosen activity will produce lower demands on you, lessening the conditioning effect. Additionally, skills performed under conditions of extreme fatigue can recruit different motor pathways which are less efficient, essentially teaching you do things wrong and sloppily and decaying your technique, hence only the most basic motor skills from said chosen sport should be used if you choose to train this way, using a limited rep range, changing what is being used before decay sets in.

Additionally, certain qualities are most rapidly and efficiently if not *solely* developed by other training modalites. Speed, agility, joint mobility, limit strength, speed-strength- all of these things can be specifically developed *much* more efficiently by various programs, as contrasted with just roadwork, bagwork, pads, and sparring. This approach has done very well for a number of modern fighters- Evander Hollyfield, Randy Couture, and Frank Shamrock being notable examples of people notorious for using cutting edge conditioning methods and crediting those methods with their successes.

Andrew

Andrew thank you so much for insightful and knowledgeable reply! As I am thinking of it . . . training in combative arts for fighters involves skill and conditioning together . . . as they are not really separate things . . . for example develop great thai kick involves not just learning it and knowing how to do it but kicking the thai bag and thai pads thousands and thousands of times . . . this gives conditioning and skill. . . while squat or something may make leg stronger it won't make thai kick better . . . doing thai kick will only do that . . . there is no short cut . . . and I am thinking that good fight training involves program that gives conditioning and skill simulaneously. I do agree with you one hundred percent about Hollyfield Couture and Shamrock . . . but I am thinking they were already top notch when they used progams you talk about . . . and at elite level a one percent gain can make huge difference in performance . . . these programs did not get them to elite level though . . . regular boxing training got Hollyfield there . . . and he continued to do regular boxing training once elite . . . I am not suggesting your ideas do not have merit . . . they do as evidence shows and I appreciate them . . . I am only trying to explain that I am thinking that generally a good training program for fighter will necessarily involve conditioning they need . . . this is all.

Thanks,

Ghost

[Ultimatewingchun]

"This guy I'm talking about is pretty stong, so in your opinions, would you keep building on that strength or let the strength training slide a bit and work more on endurance to be more well rounded. The strength thing is only based on what I've seen in class. I know that he was power lifiting for a while but I have no idea what kind of weight he was lifting." (Jeff Bussey)


***LET THE STRENGTH TRAINING slide down to things like pushups, situps, Hindu squats, chin ups, pull ups, back(neck) bridges, etc...maybe no more than say 20-30 minutes per day for the total package (at least 4 days per week)...while seriously increasing his endurance training...which can be done in any number of ways; but imo, should result in at least 30 minutes per day - virtually if not literally every day - wherein whatever aerobic he's doing results in actual and literal sweating.

And lots of stretching from head-to-toe.

Add to this lots of work on punching, kicking, footwork, fighting strategy and technique, sparring, and rolling...

and he should be KICK-A55 ready on fight day! :D

[sihing]

Andrew thank you so much for insightful and knowledgeable reply! As I am thinking of it . . . training in combative arts for fighters involves skill and conditioning together . . . as they are not really separate things . . . for example develop great thai kick involves not just learning it and knowing how to do it but kicking the thai bag and thai pads thousands and thousands of times . . . this gives conditioning and skill. . . while squat or something may make leg stronger it won't make thai kick better . . . doing thai kick will only do that . . . there is no short cut . . . and I am thinking that good fight training involves program that gives conditioning and skill simulaneously. I do agree with you one hundred percent about Hollyfield Couture and Shamrock . . . but I am thinking they were already top notch when they used progams you talk about . . . and at elite level a one percent gain can make huge difference in performance . . . these programs did not get them to elite level though . . . regular boxing training got Hollyfield there . . . and he continued to do regular boxing training once elite . . . I am not suggesting your ideas do not have merit . . . they do as evidence shows and I appreciate them . . . I am only trying to explain that I am thinking that generally a good training program for fighter will necessarily involve conditioning they need . . . this is all.

Thanks,

Ghost

Yes, when learning the Thai kick, you kick thousands of times to absorb the thing. As the skill increases less stress is placed on the body, because it has become more efficient doing that movement, when performing the movement once. Yes, I agree there are no short cuts, but supplementary training, like weight lifting has to increase the effectiveness of something, since the body is becoming stronger and more fit. This will reflect in everything you do, but the key is to have the skill already there. Basics and foundation have to be present always. Being a strong fit person alone doesn't necessarily mean you can fight.

James

[Airdrawndagger]

these programs did not get them to elite level though . . . regular boxing training got Hollyfield there . . . and he continued to do regular boxing training once elite . . .

I disagree with this because work out programs are "part" of training and without them, these pro's would definetly NOT make it to the elite level.
Anyone can be gifted at a sport, but it is the constant training and conditioning that will take them to the next level.


for example develop great thai kick involves not just learning it and knowing how to do it but kicking the thai bag and thai pads thousands and thousands of times . . . this gives conditioning and skill. . . while squat or something may make leg stronger it won't make thai kick better

If you have already developed a good kick then why would squating NOT make the kick better? If your leg is stronger, you will kick harder- thus making the kick better. Of course, if you only squat and do nothing else to develop a kick then you would be correct in your example.
The key is to supplement the kicking routine with other execises that would help further develop the kick. Same goes with training for a fight, or training to be in fighting condition.
You can just kick and punch the bag and spar all day but eventually your body will adapt to this type of conditioning and the physical gains from this set routine will diminish. So in order to maximize conditioning (which is a paramount importance for a fight) you would need to supplement your normal core routine with some other conditioning routine to shock the system into growth.
If I was very much conditioned and could last the full lenght of a fight say 3-5 min rounds with no problem, but my punches and kicks lacked power then I would need to supplement with some strength training exercises to further develop my power.

[anerlich]

You can get some great ideas by checking out the workout logs of Andrew S. on the main forum.

That's a fascinating blog full of incisive observations and valuable info.

Only trouble is, it makes me feel ancient just reading it. Ah to have those energy levels again ...

[stricker]

jeff, seriously dude theres no answer you can get off a forum like this. like i sorta said and others (andrewS, ghost etc) said more obviously its about you and how you fight what your game is, the format, and also your weaknesses. the idea i gave (sprints for rounds) is great if your that kind of fighter but like someone said if your a slow grind wrestler not a short burst fighter your energy system demand will be different. but my point still stands its important to work to the format of the comp + your style as the energy system demands is really important, so just doing lots of push ups or weights or running distances may be pointless if its not tailored to you and your fight plan. really you need to go see someone with some real experience in the ring who know about conditioning correctly for comps. head down to the local boxing or thai boxing place for advice i think!

hey andrewS. quick question, what do you make of using pre-exhaustion, eg tiring people out and then working sparring etc with fresh partners?? what i make of what ive seen of it is it seems good for reinforcing basics eg when people are are nearly dead they do stupid things like drop their hands, get sloppy eg leave there arms out for armbars etc.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey everyone,
Thanks for all of your input.
I'll take a look into Andrew's blog

Striker
The guy I'm talking about, will be assessed by and get training from someone with alot of ring experience. The thing is that he'll be travelling back and forth to Toronto for that which is about a 5hr drive each way. So while he'll be taking the advice from his trainer, I was just curious as to what people find works for them.

J

[Edmund]

how does thai boxer train to get into shape to fight . . . this is what his training is for . . . lol . . . there is no supplement needed by thai boxer . . .

Not sure what you mean by that.
In Thailand, they certainly go for runs and do weights which I would consider supplementary exercise.

[couch]

Not sure what you mean by that.
In Thailand, they certainly go for runs and do weights which I would consider supplementary exercise.

They also train hitting thai pads, train combinations and practise fighting each other. Maybe other Wing Chun schools do this, but I know that mine doesn't so I need the supplement.

Just thought I'd chime in,
Kenton

[Matrix]

They also train hitting thai pads, .......I train Pad Thai..... both chicken and shrimp. :p

[ghostofwingchun]

Not sure what you mean by that.
In Thailand, they certainly go for runs and do weights which I would consider supplementary exercise.

Mr Edmund I mean that thai boxing . . . or any program to train fighters . . . has conditioning built into training regimen . . . since conditioning and skill combine for performance . . . most thai boxers . . . in thailand at least . . . don't do much lifting weights though . . . at least this is my experience having visited with some good camps in past.

Thanks,

Ghost

[AndrewS]

Jon,

that sort of 'cooking' training rocks- you need some bodies for it (best with 3 or more people for each guy being cooked), and it should be pretty tightly supervised, both to reinforce good habits, and prevent injury.

Ghost,

talking about the conditioning being built into the training- some folks will do better with resistance, some with bodyweight, some with just sparring, some with pads- thai camps pretty much take in poor kids who need food, train them very similarly and get them fighting early, working them to death- they can afford the attrition, and they're geared to generating pro fighters- this environment has never been part of Wing Chun, and is rarely a part of martial training in any facility in the first world- almost every gym of any kind in the developed world has as a majority of its members people who aren't going to fight professionally solely to put food in their bellies.

Your logic is that of the coach who says 'let them play themselves into shape'- this has been shot down in every competetive physical activity from american football to golf to ballroom dancing. One coaching approach is to let them play themselves into shape for the first couple of years, then add the weights and other drills- this is falling by the wayside in favor of a limited amount of more broad-based conditioning work.


Andrew

[Edmund]

Mr Edmund I mean that thai boxing . . . or any program to train fighters . . . has conditioning built into training regimen . . . since conditioning and skill combine for performance . . . most thai boxers . . . in thailand at least . . . don't do much lifting weights though . . . at least this is my experience having visited with some good camps in past.


Funny, the camps I visited did.

[ghostofwingchun]

Ghost,

talking about the conditioning being built into the training- some folks will do better with resistance, some with bodyweight, some with just sparring, some with pads- thai camps pretty much take in poor kids who need food, train them very similarly and get them fighting early, working them to death- they can afford the attrition, and they're geared to generating pro fighters- this environment has never been part of Wing Chun, and is rarely a part of martial training in any facility in the first world- almost every gym of any kind in the developed world has as a majority of its members people who aren't going to fight professionally solely to put food in their bellies.

Your logic is that of the coach who says 'let them play themselves into shape'- this has been shot down in every competetive physical activity from american football to golf to ballroom dancing. One coaching approach is to let them play themselves into shape for the first couple of years, then add the weights and other drills- this is falling by the wayside in favor of a limited amount of more broad-based conditioning work.


Andrew

Andrew I am sorry . . . for I have not made my meaning clear . . . this is my fault and I will try to explain better . . . I am not just saying let them play themselves into shape . . . although playing or fighting or sparring will be part of conditioning too . . . I am saying that conditioning is built into training before person ever plays or spars too . . . when someone go to boxing gym sure they learn punches like jab and cross but then begin with hitting heavy bag . . . this is conditioning . . . then they may work on focus pads . . . this is conditioning too . . . skill is being developed along with conditioning . . . since condition and skill go into performance . . . in fact most of boxing training is geared toward conditioning . . . this is the same for thai boxing too . . . conditioning as I am thinking about it is specific to fighter . . . so what I am saying is that conditioning is built into training . . . and to learning . . . and to developing skill . . . when training fighters . . . in many martial arts goal is not to train fighters . . . it is more recreational and this is fine and dandy . . . but that training is different . . . they learn without much conditioning . . . train without much conditioning . . . then maybe they ask themselves how to get into shape for fighting . . . imagine person who learn boxing but never hit heavy bag or hit focus pad or use medicine ball and so forth . . . now they want to spar with good boxers . . . they will get hurt since they have not trained to fight . . . if asked I would say they need to train like fighter . . . begin hitting heavy bag . . . do focus pad . . . skip rope . . . in short begin training like boxers who train to fight . . . this may involve needing to start training over to start from beginning . . . to do all the things that over time has proved to develop good boxers . . . there is no point saying lift weights . . . do plyometrics . . . and so forth . . . first things first . . . and first thing is to train like fighter . . . does this make my view more clear? Please understand . . . I am not criticizing anyone's training . . . or anyone's teacher . . . or how anyone does anything . . . I am merely explaining my view of how conditioning fits into fabric of training for fighter. . . if person is not fighter this is not an issue.

Thanks,

Ghost

[Edmund]

They also train hitting thai pads, train combinations and practise fighting each other. Maybe other Wing Chun schools do this, but I know that mine doesn't so I need the supplement.


Well now I'm not sure what you mean either.
I don't consider that supplementary. Just because some Wing Chun schools don't practice fighting or combinations or hitting pads doesn't make it a supplementary exercise. The movements being exercised are specific to the martial art.

[ghostofwingchun]

Mr. Edmund I cannot argue with your experience . . . we must just have had different experiences . . . here is link to one person explaining typical thai boxing training regimen for fighters http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/ug/mtcamp.html this is very similar to what I see too . . . but this is not to say as you have that some camps may have adopted weight training too . . . but I am betting that even those camps that have adopted weight training still use old proven training regimen like this that involves lots of conditioning . . . with conditioning being trained along side skill. What I am trying to say with my posts is that imagine someone who learn thai boxing but not train like fighter as link shows . . . now they want to get in ring and fight . . . they will get hurt as they are not prepared . . . they do not need to lift weights . . . they need to do basic thai boxing fighter training . . . this is designed to get them into shape to fight . . . while developing the skills they need to fight . . . do you see what I mean?

Thanks,

Ghost

[stricker]

andrew,

cool ok but i meant to ask how what you said earlier :

"skills performed under conditions of extreme fatigue can recruit different motor pathways which are less efficient, essentially teaching you do things wrong and sloppily and decaying your technique, hence only the most basic motor skills from said chosen sport should be used if you choose to train this way, using a limited rep range, changing what is being used before decay sets in."

is relevant to cooking? (not the pad thai kind :D)

also, about the thai conditioning. well i think ghost is half right in that in muay thai skill work and conditioning are part of the same thing or very closely linked. definitely anyone whos done rounds on the pads with a thai trainer will know its skill development and conditioning at the same time. BUT, they still do extra conditioning even traditional camps, for example lots and lots of ab work, running etc. now modern training might be different for example whoever said about squats, the benefits that have might be more along the lines of the neural and hormonal effects, andrewS can correct me on that! i know weight training is used in some camps in thailand and definitely at gyms like dekkers in holland. so everyone seems to have an element of the truth but not the big picture!

couch, you get hitting the thai pads man either wing chun technique or thai technique, your fighting ability is gonna go through the roof!

[Merryprankster]

Ghost,

Nobody, I think, is saying that you don't get conditioned just doing the activities.

But you can be better conditioned than that, and doing "more of the same" doesn't cut it - law of diminishing returns. Obviously, in a competitive match, you want every advantage you can have.

Weights, plyometrics, etc, expose your body to new stresses it must adapt to. That adaptation drastically improves your performance. Further, those exercises can be incorporated with little "time suck" on the part of the athlete. What I mean by that is that you can get significantly stronger, for instance in as little as 1.5 hours a week. The same holds true for high-intensity conditioning.

Serious athletes know and use this, from skiers to marathoners to boxers to wrestlers (obviously tailored to their specific needs.)

[andy williams]

Hi.

Some questions one should ask that help determine the type of training to be undertaken.

1. how commited is the guy
2. how much time (hours per week) does he have available
3. how long till he starts to compete
4. what equipment has he access to
5. what is his present physical condition
6. what injuries does he have
7. how flexible is he
8. what nutritiuonal program does he follow

The answers to these questions help determine at what level and the type of training/conditioning program he is perscribed.

A. Williams

[andy williams]

Hi.

Some of the questions one should ask that help determine the type of training to be undertaken.

1. how commited is the guy
2. how much time (hours per week) does he have available
3. how long till he starts to compete
4. what equipment has he access to
5. what is his present physical condition
6. what injuries does he have
7. how flexible is he
8. what nutritiuonal program does he follow

The answers to these questions help determine at what level and the type of training/conditioning program he is perscribed.

No judgement of your friend and no disrespect to any, but most people do not have the time or wherewithall, to commence of dedicated training program, therefore, every care should be taken to PRE-habilitate the athlete lest they waste their time incurring avoidable injury and pursuing non-productive activities.

A. Williams

[Edmund]

What I am trying to say with my posts is that imagine someone who learn thai boxing but not train like fighter as link shows . . . now they want to get in ring and fight . . . they will get hurt as they are not prepared . . . they do not need to lift weights . . . they need to do basic thai boxing fighter training . . . this is designed to get them into shape to fight . . . while developing the skills they need to fight . . . do you see what I mean?


Not really. No one said don't do basic MA training. That's why the supplementary exercises are called SUPPLEMENTARY. It's something EXTRA to the martial arts training.

You said you needed no supplements which is an odd statement: Something that's supplementary isn't really compulsory. If you don't want to do extra supplementary training, just don't do it.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey guys,
Thought I'd share this with you guys.
I recently got one of Alan Orr's DVD's and he had a couple of exercises on there that I personally hadn't seen (I'm sure some of you guys have) but I combined 2 of them with push ups like a superset and it's a crazy workout (for me).

Here's what I do:

1. jumping lunges (alan's dvd) - 10 each leg
2. pushups - 10
3. skipping lunges (alan's dvd) - 20
4. pushups - 10

I go from 1 to 4 with no rest in between that's one set. Right now I can only do 4 sets and then I'm wiped. My goal is to do about 10 of these sets. Rest between sets is anywhere from 30 seconds to 1 minute. I try to do different pushups each time I do them.

The one thing is that I've noticed is that my legs are just getting stronger. And I'm building more of an explosive-ness. I feel great.

BTW, I enjoyed Alan's DVD. I got more out of it than those 2 exercises.

J

[stricker]

hey jeff

thats pretty normal stuff, again what we do at mma (and this is the key is its oriented round what the competition rounds are like). otherwise a typical circuit we do is:

push ups (diamond/tricep)
crunches
jumping squats
back extensions (lie on your stomach do supermans with yr hands or add punches)
dips (not full bw ones but tricep dips on a low bench feet in front of you on the floor)
legs up sit ups
jumping lunges
marching knees (from muay thai)

40 seconds at each station (as many reps as possible in that time, last 10s full out) which pretty much comes to 5 minutes then back again. it helps to have someone else on the same station with you.

of course everyone changes is a bit depending on their level. eg i usually mix up jumping and not jumping in the lunges and squats as i like to be able to walk the next day, and i cant do 40 diamond push ups in 40s yet LOL

so hit us back with the good stuff then :D

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Stricker,
I hear you about walking after those jumping lunges. Mind you I'm not doing all that much so it's not too bad.

Don't forget that I'm an out of shape bum so I more than likely can't keep up with the majority of you guys. :(

I used to do circuit training with time limits and enjoyed that alot. Maybe I'll go back to doing that as well.

Guaranteed though, I think Ernie had mentioned this before, I'm enjoying my ving tsun training so much more now that I've got a decent workout going.

J

[Krooklyn]

Fight Conditioning, it all depends if your gym already has a solid training regiment of cardio and sparring during normal classes etc. Then at the gym i train at for the fighters headed for fight competition , my instructor usually has us do 5 day on 3x of what we normally do which is a ton , but doesnt burn us out, and a weight training program cycle depending on the competition style. Also more sparring but with more protection then normal so you don't get a ****ed up injury before your fight.

My opinion is as long as your gym is training like heavy intense then theres no big difference between fight conditioning and training for fight night.