View Full Version : Hip and waist mobility Chi Kung for Ba Gua?

03-10-2001, 02:14 AM
I read a message authored by Waidan concerning a Chi Kung for waist and hip flexibility. Anyone care to share for us MA's who are estranged from our Shirfus?

"The essence of life is struggle and it's goal is domination. There are higher goals and deeper meanings, but they exist only within the minds of men. The reality of life is war."

03-10-2001, 02:44 AM
Bagua Chi Kung is a very complex system of chi kung. In many ways more complex than the martial art itself. Where exactly is Dulzura? I am in California and maybe I could direct you to a good teacher who teaches this. I don't think anything I can say would make much sense without a better understanding in the first place. If it helps I think snake, bird and unicorn will help.

03-10-2001, 08:09 AM
Our Snake and Qiling are sets I focus on for developing strength and flexibility in the waist.

I'm pretty new to our system (1 year)so an explaination of the movements would be as likely to hinder as help.

One thing I can suggest is the circular "mill press" excercise (probably the same thing you'd be taught your first day of Yang push-hands). Repeatedly opening and closing the hips while twisting the waist (keeping shoulders and hips aligned) is a good starting place. Of course you may be WELL beyond this, but it's the best advice I can safely offer.

P.S. Count has a very extensive list of internal instructors on his site. I'd take him up on his offer!

03-10-2001, 02:57 PM
Just a note to say that the list of instuctors (http://kabooom.com/htmls/baguaschools.html) on my site is gathered from the pa kua journal and the internet. I can only vouche for 2 that I know teach accurate methods of baguazhang and bagua chi kung. One in San francisco and one in Los Angeles. E-mail me direct for information.

There are specific methods of posture, directions to face, thoughts you should focus on, and breath for each of the chi kung excercises in bagua. One facing each of the trigrams and one facing the center. Snake is facing north or KAN. Snake is more for the Kidney area or lower back. We do big bird for the waist and limbs facing southeast or SUN. As waiden said, any discription without proper instruction would only confuse you. It is a really fun method to practice and if you are in the Los Angeles area I can take you to class with me. Some of our students come from as far as San Diego regualarly so I assure you, it is worth a trip.

03-10-2001, 09:09 PM
I'm truly honored by your offer Count. Of course I practice several Kungs for Ba Gua as well, but the "officially sanctioned" effects were pretty general i.e. "This one will fill your Dan tien with Chi!". No one has ever presented me with a Chi Kung that's sole purpose is to achieve any one special effect.

I've had all kinds of phenomenal experiences with Chi Kung, but in the long run, I feel the most important benifit has been "relearning" how my body feels internally. For instance, I've noted that when my palms are hot, I strike with more power. I don't need to know why this is so in order to take advantage of this fact, but I'd like to find out.

To answer your question, Dulzura is located at the far southeastern corner of San Diego county. The next nearest town is actually in Mexico, and is called Tecate.

I am REALLY interested in getting a subscription to the Ba Gua Journal! I was first exposed to Ba Gua Zhang when I began studying Liang Zhen Pu style with Vince Black and Jeff Thornbloom. I've been told that Vince had something to do with the Journal. Since returning to S.D. county a few months ago, I've been unable to locate either of them (I understand Vince is now in Arizona).

Please E-mail me if you're serious about your offer, I might be able to swing your way sometime over the next couple of months. Scarletmantis@aol.com

"The essence of life is struggle and it's goal is domination. There are higher goals and deeper meanings, but they exist only within the minds of men. The reality of life is war."

03-11-2001, 06:00 PM
As for hip and waist mobility for Baguazhang wouldn't serious training in circle walking in and of it's self be the answer? All this added Qigong sometimes leads up to the cure being worse then the disease...

03-11-2001, 06:47 PM

Probably not a lot of baguazhang instruction down there in Dulzura, huh? ;- )

For the specific issue of hip/waist mobility, I think Kevin Wikse is right on the mark with circle-walking. You can also practice various stepping patterns (including the circle) in incrementally tighter formations.

For a very (VERY) basic illustration of bagua qigong aimed at hip/waist mobility, see the chapter on "Spinning/Turning Qigong" in Liang/Yang's book on "Emei Baguazhang". I'm not necessarily saying buy the book, because it's a hefty tome with a hefty price, but peruse that chapter while in a bookstore sometime.

If you want to see a more specific and comprehensive illustration of bagua qigong aimed at this element of bagua practice, check out tape # 3 in the Pa Kua Chang series at www.wuji.com. (http://www.wuji.com.) This tape shows a basic Pa Kua qigong set from the Nine Palaces lineage of Cheng Tinghua, followed by a "moving zhan zhuang" set done on a tight circle with the postures held, and integrated with the breathing. There is a booklet that accompanies this tape to provide more detailed instruction. A friend of mine let me see the tape. It's basically home-made, without any fancy production values, but the demonstration and instruction seem pretty clear. Andy Dale, the instructor, seems to have had a lot of baguazhang experience. My impression is that, while he can demonstrate bagua applications, he's more into the qi cultivation aspects and developing physically sound form execution. That said, I haven't seen a thorough bagua qigong set from one of the main bagua lineages demonstrated in any other bagua books or tapes or seminars. For some, circlewalking is all the qigong they need.

Good luck. Oh, by the way, the Pa Kua Chang Journal ceased publication in 1997. Some back issues can still be obtained through Plumflower Press (www.plumflower.com). Also, Vince Black has effectively retired from teaching. I'm not sure if he's still doing an occasional seminar for his senior students. He's still in Tucson. I'm not sure what's up with the North American Tang Shou Tao Association. You might check with Scott Jensen, whose "Bending Willow" site is listed under "Other Chinese Internal Martial Arts" at scheele.org/lee/tcclinks.html.

03-11-2001, 06:50 PM
Right you are, I thought I said that earlier but I guess it was just another thread. Circle and square walking and doing changes go a long way towards increasing mobility and more important developing power. However, I do not think of chi kung as a cure but rather as a supplement. Kind of like taking vitamins when you can't get all your veggies. All the Chi Kung IS in the forms but the separate chi kung is very meditative and relaxing too. Sometimes a quicker result with less effort.

ScarletMantis, We usually don't have time in all our classes to include our chi kung sets so I will discuss possiblity of a workshop with my instuctor on the topic. None the less I will contact you soon.


03-12-2001, 07:51 PM
Thanks for the info Wujidude, I guess I've been out of the loop for a long time! The Pa Kua Chang Journal was my favorite. I'm proud to say that I still practice my Liang Zhen Pu Ba Gua everyday. Being a pre-birth method, circle walking practices such as Ding Shr and the form Lao Ba Zhang have been the backbone of my personal practice for a long time. I guess I was just looking for something to throw into the mix.

Count, your offer is sounding better all the time. As I have still been unable to contact either of my Ba Gua Shrfu's I'm considering looking at some other Ba Gua styles. I've gotta say though, I've been REALLY happy with the way my LZP has stood up to the task of keeping me healthy, and interested, despite the long years spent with a realatively small amount of material. "It's better to do a few techniques well, then ten thousand poorly." - Wang Shu Jin

"The essence of life is struggle and it's goal is domination. There are higher goals and deeper meanings, but they exist only within the minds of men. The reality of life is war."

03-12-2001, 09:01 PM
Hey Mantis:

They aren't in your neck of the woods (they are up in the Bay Area), but the group at www.beijingbagua.com (http://www.beijingbagua.com) has some interesting stuff relating to Liang Zhen Pu's style via Li Ziming . . . who was Vince Black's teacher. Also, Vince can still be contacted. He's in Tucson . . . shoot, give him a call and see what he suggests as far as maintaining your practice in LZP style. Vince's contact information is on the instructor's list at www.hsing-i.com (http://www.hsing-i.com) (or through David DeVere, david@emptyflower.com) If you don't already have it, I'd suggest getting the English edition of LZP's "Old 8 Palms" that Vince put together. It's no longer available through Plumflower Press, but Wing Lam at www.wle.com (http://www.wle.com) has copies in stock.

I think LZP's book is a classic for any style of baguazhang. It gives the 48 "songs" from Guo Gumin (Li Ziming's bagua "elder brother" under Liang Zhen Pu), and other valuable material.

Good luck.

03-12-2001, 09:15 PM
Oops. Vince Black is not on the hsing-i.com instructor's list . . . despite the fact that he and Mike Patterson had the same primary xingyiquan teacher in Taiwan, Hsu Hong Chi. I forgot about old family rivalries ;- ).

This contact information is from www.jiangschool.com (http://www.jiangschool.com):

Vince Black, O.M.D.
North American Tang Shou Tao Association
P.O. Box 36235
Tucson, AZ 85740
Phone: (520) 544-4838
Fax: (520) 797-3710
E-mail: NATSTA@Juno.com