Old Internal Masters and there training!

[fiercest tiger]

Hi,

Does anyone have any stories and training tips that there Masters, founders etc used to train apart there chi kung. Such as weights, body weight, stone ball, stone locks or any other strength and power training?

What is your view on strength training such as weights etc and internal chi cultivation together, with lots of stretching? Do you think they can make you better then just doing chi kung?

I Personally do stone ball and body weight, cardio as well my chi kung, sparring...I know some think weights slow you down or hinder movement or can restrict chi moving but i dont believe that and like to here your views?

Anyone care to add!!

regards
Garry:)

[count]

I've heard that Grandmaster Liu wore a heavy, iron jacket for more than 2 years. 24 hours a day.:eek:

I've heard Master Gong Bao Tian had his students train speed and mobility by having them chase chickens around his courtyard.:p

Are these training methods internal?:D

Here's some more about Liu and Gong BaoTian.
http://kabooom.com/htmls/bagua.shtml

[fiercest tiger]

Thanks Count,

I think its important to have the specialty training such as the iron jackets, balls, indian clubs, stone locks, and all the correct methods that apply to the type of style and way you fight. Apart the fighting it also gives you a strong body and has many healing benifits, muscle toning etc.

Garry

[Repulsive Monkey]

All depends. If you're talking about Iron shirt qi-gong then yes long chronic use of say chain mail vests have been known to have some effect.
But a lot of weight WILL stagnate your qi and probably negate a lot of your qi gong work.
You may not like hearing it but stretching YES is good, but when your contracting muscles and pumping Iron, you totally increase your chances of causing qi stagnation whilst you try to undo that work by releasing blockages via qi gong.

You may not believe it that weight training is detrimental to qi gong, but, sorry to say, it general is.

Repulsive Monkey

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I just hosted a weekend seminar with Dr. Yang Jwing Ming.. we had great conversations about "old times".. two things he said struck me as interesting.. that the most important aspects of Taiji are power and rooting, techniques are empty without these.. and, that a minimum of 4 hours per day of training are necessary to advance to "high level skills".. He is a strong advocate of Taoist breathing (reverse abdominal breathing) as complimentary to "martial" intentions of internal arts.. Dr. Yang indicated that beyond 60-70 years ago Taiji was a solid martial art, that his master was a respected fighter of Taiji lineage (Yang Ban Hou).. He largely blames modern comforts for the downfall of Taiji spirit.. riding in comfort rather than walkiong or riding animals, having machinery do our work, entertaining ourselves with TV and such rather than pursuing life enhancing disciplines.. in short, we have become lazy and separated ourselves from our environment.. he says that too many people see Taiji as a novelty, not its illustrious heritage.. something they can dabble in 2-3 times a week and become teachers as soon as they learn a form.. very sad, he says.. Originally, he said that martial arts, including Taiji, were combat oriented and the end result was killing or disabling an opponent.. niceities are a recent evolution. Although he does favor the controlled escalation of force in a conflict, he said we must, as Taiji tradition indicates, be trained and prepared to end a conflict decisively..

Our lifestyles are based on money and wealth acquisition, on accumalating possessions and creature comforts.. not on improving our health, really improving it.. most westerners have serious issues with their spines, largely from lack of vital exercise and sitting for long periods of time.. too few of us are really willing to commit the time and effort to reap the profound benefits of Taiji..

Old Taiji training included pushing-hands on Plum Flower Poles 6 feet high, hours of sitted and standing meditation to finely tune focusing skills, and many hours of practicing two person fighting sets.. applications had to be instinctive, and instincts for fighting are not found in forms alone.. listening skills (core skill) are only developed by training with partners and only useful at combat speed if trained at combat speed..

We need a critical evaluation of Taiji to maintain its legacy, a renewed dedication to its principles..

Be well..

[SPJ]

All three are needed.

1. strength, endurance training. hard.

2. Qi Gong breathing exercises.

3. soft, relaxation or stretching all all joints.

:D

[SPJ]

I will mention the relaxation method of the shoulder and back exercise from Tong Bei.

1. you swing your arm, the hand was on the front of the thigh and swing it upward to touch the back of your neck. you then swing downward to touch the back of your hip. you are drawing circles in your front. you then step on toes when swing upward. you lower your heels when swing downward.

2. you swing your arm to your front and then back. you draw circles on your side. when your arm is in the front, you step on toes, when you arm is in your back, you lower heels.

3. bring your hands close to you and bend knees. you spring your hands forward to your front and stand up. again step on toes and then lower your heels.

etc etc.

They are called swaying the arm methods or Shuai Bei Gong.

[fiercest tiger]

Hello Taiji Bob,

Very true what Dr Yang says indeed, since my training is based on strength using the Sphere/ball and core body, softness, meditation, and much more i know Taiji has a sphere / ball as well and DrYang does have dvds out. Does he mention the ball training to you and its purpose for the Taiji art? Good points and bad points doesnt matter love to here what he thinks as well yourself and anyone else for that matter.

What weight ball is uses etc?

kind regards
Garry FT

[omarthefish]

Hey Count!

I have never been able to get your web pages to open from China before. Frustrating. Finnally I figured out that I could see them thorugh www.anonymouse.org and imagine my suprise.....

Pretty cool seeing my little credit up there.

Also, since Bob put it up on emptyflower lately I've been seeing little things that need revision. It is a bit rough but I am still proud of it. The content was not easy. Specifically the little note you added about this part:


"Bian zhuan xu shi, bu zhong can.
Turning and changing between empty and solid, there is majesty in the footwork.

can (pronounced tsaan) is a tricky word. Today, it commonly means to participate but in classical Chinese it is used as an honorable term of address. It sometimes means, to explore or to examine. I would need a gong-fu expert to explain the meaning of the last line as it doesnt seem to be addressed in the following explanation of the poem.



I found another meaning for "can" that seems to make sense. In one of my dictoinaries of classical Chinese it has a meaning listed a "to move" so maybe something along the lines of:

Movement and change between empty and solid contained within the steps.

:o

As I see SPJ is here maybe he could give us a second opinion. Here is the original phrase in Chinese:

变转虚实,步中参

[count]

Well that's just great. I guess the Chinese censors don't want information about Chinese Martial arts to get in to China. That anonymous.org site is useful, but they control your options and filter javascripts, cookies and run a slow proxy too. That's as much as censorship in my view. I don't know which I detest more. I don't care for their pop advertisement on every page either.

(*hint* to the mgmt.)

Omar. you can pick up that little snip of a perl cgi they're using, and run it on any server you want. Than at least you have control over your options. But if it gets out to the public, be prepared for some massive bandwidth.:)

The article about Liu seems to be getting refined over time. Kind of like good kung fu. I think it shows a lot of truth and good information, from the perspective of an outside observer, translated by someone with both language and martial experience who really cares about the meaning. Maybe the character is solid but the meaning is sometimes taught as full. Thanks again for translating it.

I hope you read this the way I wrote it. If you want more information about anonymous.cgi, I'll e-mail the source code. In the meantime, I would find a different isp for your connection. I get hit by servers in China and the the whole Asian belt all the time.

And don't even bother checking out my site with anonymous.org. You can't even access or even see half of what I put up there.

and
編審肏

[omarthefish]

Send me the file and I'll give it a shot. I really don't understand code but I often figure stuff like that out just by immersing myself in it when I have time. I didn't know anonymouse filtered that much. My other "trick" is to goto www.proxy4free.com and try various servers untill I get one that works but they never seem to last for long. The speed is sketchy and one week later I have to find a new one anyways.

I only found out recently that there even existed alternate ISP's here. I thought it was all China Telecom but apparently there are 2 or 3 others as well. I'm pretty sure that they all go through the same international geteway though. I can get domestic downloads sometimes as fast as 1 meg/sec...rare but I've seen it. Typicall is about 100 kbs. For "foreign" sites though, it's just like dial up. Dial up on a good day but still. I'll get about 10-20kps or on a really good day 100. So I assume there's a bottleneck at the border.

[count]

Check your PM's of course.;)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

fiercest tiger: Dr. Yang did 3 hours of Qinna on Friday evening (quite enough for one weekend, i'm typing with my elbows).. 6 hours of Taiji Ball on Saturday, excellent energy work.. and, 6 hours of combat applications on Sunday.. all in all a great seminar.. He presents good science to back up energies and their relationships to Taiji without removing all of the mystical possibilities.. he can back up all of his talk with decisive action.. and, he has a great sense of humor..

We spent a fair amount of time working on correct breathing (Taoist, reverse abdominal breathing) and coordinated physical movement.. what a difference fine-tuning makes..

I use several spheres (gotta watch the ambiguous use of certain words, here).. a 5.2 pound 8 inch diameter cherry wood.. a 15 pound medicine ball.. and a volleyball (for when my arms get tired).. the training set lasts about 40 minutes and is about half of the total set.. neatly, Dr. Yang convincingly showed us how to relax and move softly even while working with heavy spheres.. power magnified!

If you are familiar with flat plate exercises, the wooden spheres really work well rather than the plates.. Taiji Ball Qigong is a superior training discipline, i highly recommend it.. but, it is detailed and requires complex breathing coordination (which is becoming more natural day by day)..

Be well..

[wiz cool c]

My teacher recommend wearing weights instead of lifting them. I wear a 20 pound weighted belt and wrist weights while I do my Ba Gua,also do bag work wearing weighted boxing gloves also recommend by my teacher. Both work great. I do cardio as well and sparr every week twice.

[SPJ]

变转虚实,步中参

the article was compiled from the editorial team as a special report on Taiwan's Gong Bao Tian ->Liu Yun Qiao "Wu Tan" Ba Gua Zhang.

It is a very nice article with pictures of Master Liu and Yin's basic 8 palms.

Omar, your translation is very good already.

"Can" may also mean study, exam in reference or comparison.

"Can Chan/Zen" means study and cross exam Zen.

For the change, transformation or conversion between the emptiness and the solidness, one has to study or cross exam the steps.

So if you say they are from the steps, it is correct.

:)

[omarthefish]

Thank you for the kind words but....

AAaaRRGG!!! :D

I feel so dumb for not seeing it. I know that "can". "Cankao de can" (参考) duh!

Count,

Definately make that change. I have to pm Bob now. It's not even classical Chinese really. Grammatically it kind of is but I guess I just had one of those proverbial brain ****s with "can". It happens.

Omar

p.s. Thanks SPJ for your help. ;)

[fiercest tiger]

Thanks Taiji Bob, how old is Taiji Ball training? I enjoy Dr Yangs info, i have a few of his books, although not his ball training maybe i will look into his Taiji ball and see how different it is to my systems Buddhist method of ball training.


The ball chi kung is that without holding the wooden ball?

cheers
Garry:)

[SPJ]

Omar;

The text is from the first sentence of Ba Gua Quan Ge, or Ba Gua boxing song.

There are 10 more sentences.

a quick summary;

2. walk like a wind, stand like --

3. waist like--, Qi is the flag, --

4. walk like a dragon, sit like a tiger, move like a river flows and stand like a mountain.

5. Yin Yang hand, flip up and down, --

6. carry 6 harmonies, ---

7. Bai Kou Bu, --

8. Hand hitting 30% and foot hitting 70%--

9. Hip hitting while walking, shoulder to strike, --

10. too high not stopped, too low not intercepted, --

11. boxing method essentials in a few words, without practice, everything is in vain.

:)

[Nexus]

My teacher recommend wearing weights instead of lifting them. I wear a 20 pound weighted belt and wrist weights while I do my Ba Gua,also do bag work wearing weighted boxing gloves also recommend by my teacher. Both work great. I do cardio as well and sparr every week twice.

Training someone to practice w/ weights is often done. It is not a replacement for ball qi gong, it is apples and oranges, both are fruits and good for you!

The effect of course is in having the weights removed, noticing the huge increase in power (speed w/ strength) and by training slow, you build up stabilizer muscles. good work.

[Tingjid]

Greetings..

I use several spheres (gotta watch the ambiguous use of certain words, here).. a 5.2 pound 8 inch diameter cherry wood..

Hey TaiChiBob, where did you get your wooden sphere, I've only ever been able to find stone. Is it a local thing for you or online? I've been looking for a while but with no luck, thanks for any help.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

From our recent seminar, these are some of the links we found..

· Greatbaytaichi.com

· charlestauber@yahoo.ca
Wood/type Laminations Diameter Weight Price (1) Price (10)
Alder 4 8 3.7 $108 $102
Spruce 4 8 3.9 $153 $146
Butternut 2 8 3.9 $110 $104
Willow 4 8 4.1 $89 $84
Poplar (Yellow) 2 8 4.1 $95 $90
Spanish Cedar 2 8 4.7 $112 $106
Fir (Douglas) 2 8 4.7 $106 $101
Elm (grey) 4 8 4.8 $87 $83
Cherry 4 8 4.8 $142 $135
Walnut 4 8 5.3 $118 $112
Yellow Pine 2 8 5.4 $85 $81
Ash 2 8 5.8 $104 $99
Mahogany 3 8 5.8 $148 $141
Maple 4 8 6.1 $105 $99
Beech 4 8 6.3 $103 $98
Oak (red) 4 8 6.3 $114 $108
Paduak (African) 4 8 6.5 $126 $120
Teak 4 8 6.7 $242 $230
Apple 6 8 7.3 $117 $111
Bubinga 4 8 8.5 $147 $140
Composites
Maple with 1/2" Purpleheart center 5 8 7 $131 $124
Maple with 1" Purpleheart center 5 8 7.8 $131 $124

· Glacialwood Products glacialwood@tds.net
7" Maple or Oak 7" Cherry 8" Maple or Oak 8" Cherry 9" Maple or Oak 9" Cherry
$52.47 $56.39 $70.89 $76.19 $90.88 $97.68

Good luck, and.. Be Well...

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Bob,

What are the best type of wood for chi gung ball? I know certain trees are better then others so i guess the type of wood you play for ball is the same, any info there?

regards
Garry

[Ronin22]

Greetings..

fiercest tiger: Dr. Yang did 3 hours of Qinna on Friday evening (quite enough for one weekend, i'm typing with my elbows).. 6 hours of Taiji Ball on Saturday, excellent energy work.. and, 6 hours of combat applications on Sunday.. all in all a great seminar.. He presents good science to back up energies and their relationships to Taiji without removing all of the mystical possibilities.. he can back up all of his talk with decisive action.. and, he has a great sense of humor..

We spent a fair amount of time working on correct breathing (Taoist, reverse abdominal breathing) and coordinated physical movement.. what a difference fine-tuning makes..

I use several spheres (gotta watch the ambiguous use of certain words, here).. a 5.2 pound 8 inch diameter cherry wood.. a 15 pound medicine ball.. and a volleyball (for when my arms get tired).. the training set lasts about 40 minutes and is about half of the total set.. neatly, Dr. Yang convincingly showed us how to relax and move softly even while working with heavy spheres.. power magnified!

If you are familiar with flat plate exercises, the wooden spheres really work well rather than the plates.. Taiji Ball Qigong is a superior training discipline, i highly recommend it.. but, it is detailed and requires complex breathing coordination (which is becoming more natural day by day)..

Be well..

TaiChiBob

Is reverse abdominal breathing where your stomach pushes outward on the inhale? Or do I have that backwards?

[Tingjid]

TaiChiBob

Is reverse abdominal breathing where your stomach pushes outward on the inhale? Or do I have that backwards?


Not to step on toes there Bob, but that's an easy one, so please excuse my answering for you.

Reverse breathing, or Taoist breathing is when you inhale and the stomach goes in as opposed to a natural breath where the stomach expands with the lungs. So yeah that was just backwards. I tend to enjoy them both but stick more to the natural breath for relaxation purposes, I supose I should train more with the reverse breath.

If I may expand on the question, what do you think the benefits of the reverse breath are?

Also thanks for answering the ealier question about the ball. :D

EDIT: Also do you know why it's called Taoist? I never really thought about it, I suppose it shouldn't be too hard to look up so I will, but might as well ask also :)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Reverse abdominal breathing the abdominal muscles (lower than the stomach muscles) contract while inhaling, the chest sinks inward and the "floor muscles" contract upward (sealing the bottom gate).. this forces the air/Qi mix into the DanTien while pumping out Qi (into the microcosmic circulation and subsequently into applications) due to the contractions from all directions.. considering that the inhaling usually occurs during a defensive retreat (backwards movement) the combination of movements is referred to as "Triple Yin", likewise the expanding abdominals combined with forward movement and attacking intent is referred as "Triple Yang".. it is noteworthy that the expanding abdominals are not "relaxed", they expand in the same way as when you might push a car or lift weights, creating a resilient support structure for the organs.. to further complicate this breathwork, there is an intricate skeletal manipulation resulting in a "spinal wave".. as the abs contract during inhaling, the MingMen pushes outward while the hips tuck gently under and upward (pelvic tilt).. then, as you exhale the spine rolls upward into the shoulders, the chest expands releasing the stored energy in the compressed DanTien and bowed back expressing it through the shoulders and into the application of the arms/hands.. as if there were not enough to consider, during inhaling there is a slight lowering of the center of gravity storing additional energy in the quads, which also release their energy as you rise into the exhale.. WHEW!!!

Buddhists, generally, pursue enlightenment and are fond of the relaxation inspired by Normal Abdominal Breathing (NAB).. Taoists, being a bit Martial, find the added Qi circulation and increased ability to direct the Qi application from Reverse Abdominal Breathing (RAB) to have an enhancing effect on their pursuits.. Personally, i find value in both.. my martial training is supported by RAB, and my meditations for spiritual development utilize NAB.. NAB is often associated spiritual development and enlightenment, while RAB is linked to longevity, health, and physical cultivation, including enhanced martial abilities.. Balance seems appropriate to me.. While many people discount spiritual development, it is a superior tool for developing intense focusing skills and remarkable clarity.. spiritual and physical development are just yin and yang aspects of our martial quests..

Considering the additional Qi pumped into the microcosmic circulation and necessary detail of alignment structure to facilitate its circulation.. it is advisable to seek experienced guidance in developing Reverse Abdominal Breathing.. we can unintentionally create blockages or over-abundances which will counter the intended purpose and potentially cause other problems.. Although initially we will exaggerate the spinal wave and the contraction/expansions of the abdomen, after developing the process it is quite subtle.. and, can be really quick in its expression and transition, hence the martial implication.

I hope this helps.. the rewards are worth the effort to develop this process..

Be well..

[Ronin22]

Thanks Ting for the answer......


Holy crap TCB thats a lot to digest and a great post, you are a sage. Of course this opens up more questions for me like:

How do you practice this breathing? Is it done sitting, standing? Is there any movement involved?

I know I should pick up a book on it but I'm just looking for a brief explanation for some understanding
Thanks





Peace

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Ronin22: First, we try to develop the mechanics of contracting abdominals during the inhaling process and expanding during exhaling.. this can be done as you wish.. i recommend standing to develop correct alignments and intentions.. initially, as we become familiar with Yi (mind) leading Qi, the process will be slow and detailed.. we go through the process of building a path through our alignment structure so the Qi can flow smoothly and quickly.. at high levels (i'm not suggesting i am there yet :) ) one's Yi (intention) is focused on its target and the path trained manifests itself at the same instant, this is "internalization"..

Imagine that the legs and hips/waist are the "hand" that holds the "whip".. the whip is the spine/arms.. like a sine wave, the Qi and alignment roll upward along the spine and outward through the arms/hands.. and, the breathing pattern is the motivation that moves this unique symphony of energies..

Good luck! and, Be well..

[fiercest tiger]

Great post Bob!!

I like to add that the spine wave also makes use of the 3 pumps, Perineium, sacrum and cranial pumps which will help you achieve the microcosmic cycle with the correct breathing and mind.

Bob,

Does your Taiji ball make use of the spine wave also?

Kind regards
Garry:)

[count]

Diaphram! Lungs!


Great posts though TCB.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Tai Chi Ball Qigong is very focused on the spinal wave.. in fact, the ball training is to enhance awareness of this critical process.. as Count correctly points out, one of the effects of the spinal wave and of Tai Chi Ball training is to more efficiently utilize the diaphragm and lungs, to express the stored kinetic energies in the bowed spine and sunken chest.. Similarly, in receiving an opponent's energies we sink our center of gravity while storing those energies in the legs, sink the chest/bow the back storing energies in the spine and sternum regions and inhale while drawing in the abdomen.. all our physical movements are drawing in the opponents energies, storing them and waiting for the opponent to reach their extremity.. at their extremity they must transition (either back or ahead).. at the transition we release their energies we have stored, adding to their intention of transition and adding a small amount of our own energies.. the result, if properly applied and timed, is a compounded return of energies over-balancing their intended application.. subtle and irresistable..

Sticking and adhering while calmly applying the mechanics of the spinal wave is a very deceptive action.. no sudden and alarming movements, no alerts that cause immediate alarmed responses.. a soft but powerful building of force.. that is not to say that the potential for FaJing is not immediate and available, but deep art is present in the subtle controlling of powerful forces.. some of you guys have seen your opponent's puzzled look that says "why am i falling" :) We deal with remarkable potentials, deep and profound levels of self-control.. and, explorations into the very nature of "being".. We have chosen a remarkable journey, this Taiji..

But, Taiji IS Yin and Yang.. as softly as we can express our control, it is balanced with our ability to so suddenly whip a FaJing application that the opponent's awareness of impact becomes observable as we return to a neutral position.. that same puzzled look of "why does that hurt so much"..

It is, indeed, a pleasure to share insights with you guys.. exchanging experiences and lessons so that the Art, as a whole, can be preserved and advanced.. Thank you all for the kind thoughts and sincere interests..

Be well..

[viper]

in regards to the ideas of weighted vests and also wearin wrist weights etc i have a belt and like you att rubber tube with a hand grip and and att to ankles u might of seen this type of thing but i use one to practise almost all my trainin forms etc anbd i like it ever thought mayb usn one they are really good just personal opion. In regards to reverse breathing it seems to get the qi moving i feel btr then realxed breathin not sure pherhaps i focus more just thought id put in my two cents im aware i dont practise tai ji but i find alot of its methods principles fit well with the system i use.

(the sponge over comes the tidal wave)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

From a purely physical peraspective, Taoist Breathing has several benefits..

As bipeds (walking upright on 2 feet), our internal organs (vicera below the diaphragm) are stagnated by gravity.. compared to our four legged friends whose organs are suspended from their horizontal spines by membranes.. animal's organs swing to and fro during their normal activities and are constantly massaged.. human's organs, in contrast, sit in a condensed pile and trap heat and moisture.. the Taoist breathwork is a great way to massage and stimulate healthy circulation in the lower vicera and dispell heat.. this is also quite useful in digestion and excretory processes.. similar massage benefits aid the vascular system as well..

Taoist breathwork also utilizes the rocking motion of the pelvis to aid in the compression and "gate sealing".. additionally, this rocking motion adds a lively maintenance of the disks in the lumbar section of the spine while the complete "spinal wave" exercises each vertabrae and disk.. The rocking pelvis is the physical motion that powers the "sacral pump" and also uses the sacrum like a guardrail on roads to direct the Qi through a tight turn into its upward path.. The rocking motion of the pelvis and the contraction of the floor muscles is also known as the "perineal pump", it seals the HuiYin (anal gate) and adds inertia to the Qi as it makes the critical turn at the bottom of the torso.. with the added inertia the sacrum acts like a deflector, bouncing the Qi upward into the spinal path.. Gravity, resistance and poor alignment begin to slow down the Qi's upward momentum, so.. the cranial pump (just above the spinal prominence, the pronounced bump in the spine between the shoulders) acts like a sling-shot, pulling the Qi from above then pushing it up and forward through the cranial cavity..

In the Taoist breathing there are several conditions that have muscles putting strain on the bones.. bones have a piezo-electric quality, which means that under physical stress the bones generate a micro-electrical current (further enhancing our bio-electrical system.. this is most active when we utilize the quads to assist in the hip-rocking and as the psoas put strain on the pelvis.. the quads and legs, in general, are like two huge pumps..

These are benefits that are purely physical, dependent on the simple kinetic motions of Taoist breathwork..

Be well...

[SBonzak]

Great analysis Chris....I cannot wait to hear more!

-Steve