Learning forms.

[Mr Punch]

I always learnt forms and kata one step at a time. The sifu/sensei made sure you got one bit near enough right before he gave you the next bit. Plus they've usually tested the application of the bits you've learnt as you go along.

Well, that's my experience anyway.

I have heard of people being taught the whole form all through, in a fast and (I quote from a guy I was discussing this with on another baord) 'sloppy' way to embed the basic patterns into your head before refinement.

I can't think of any benefits to the second way especially.

Which way do you prefer and in your experience why?

BTW, people who vote for the fourth option are welcome to their opinion, but let's not turn this into another 'What's the use of forms' debate... if you don't like them, don't do them and start a new thread! ;)

[MasterKiller]

Personally, I like to learn the pattern first, then go over the apps later once I've got the movements down.

[JamesC]

Ditto ^ What MasterKiller said

[Mr Punch]

But why?

And James, you're for doing it slowly, he's for doing it quickly.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Learning a form in sections with applications allows a student to quickly gain practical knowledge while simultaneously giving them a way to train that practical knowledge independently. When the student shows proficiency in both the form and the application, the next transition, concept, and application can be introduced.

CSP

[hskwarrior]

when i was in fut san china i learned CHe Kuen in one day. it was harder to do because i was always learning 3+ moves at a time with Grand Master Salvatera.

but now, with my students i teach them the combo's before i teach them the set. the reason for that is when we get to a certain section that has some nice combo's they won't have to wait the next year to master the moves. they are doing it before they learned the form. but when they do do the form, they look that much better, understand what they are doing better than just doing the movements blindly.

forms are good to understand the movement patterns but you cannot use most of the techniques as the way it is in certain sets. you will have to make modificaitons when showing people how to use them.

anyways, either way is good. if you can learn the set in one day, and you remember it, its a credit to your memory.

peace---hsk

[TenTigers]

yep-I agree, and that wasn't in your poll-teach the moves, drill the sh!t out of them, reaction drills, hands on, bags,THEN teach the form. This is the way it was done many generations ago, only recently have we reversed the process. I must credit DF with opening my eyes to this "new" old methodology.
Bottom line-if you were training for combat-which would you teach first? Forms, or drills and fighting? BUT-if you are trying to grow a school, or increase enrollment, or keep your students, which do you teach and demonstrate? Face it, if you did a performance, and had your guys up there hitting bags, and drilling, nobody would even stay to see the end. Likewise, people want to learn the next cool form.
Teaching the "New" old way develops the student's technique, and also makes it alot easier to learn the form because they already know the moves. Just try to teach a newbie a movement like butterfly palms, or something circular and complex. They have no idea what their body is supposed to be doing, because they have no idea what, or how the movements work-no intent. But teach them the technique, drill it, THEN show them the move in the set> You will notice a complete improvement.
To quote David Ross-"Trust me, I'm right":)

[rogue]

For beginners I think learning the gross moves first works best, but for someone with experience learning the applications as you learn the movements should be the way to go.

[JamesC]

Thanks Rogue, that's kinda where I was going with it.

I'm a complete newb when it comes to kung fu. I was into the MMA until I found the kung fu school. I wish I wasn't because it is hard to unlearn those habits.

Anyways, because the movements and nearly every thing about kung fu is so different from what I learned before, I prefer the movements first, apps later.

I'm sure that will change once I get better at kung fu, but for right now I am just worried about the positioning, movement, relaxation, etc.

[hskwarrior]

Mr James C,

what traditional gung fu style did you decided to learn?

what was it about the gung fu style that took you away from MMA?


hsk

[hskwarrior]

my point is this....


even in the most basic of forms in choy lee fut there are a lot of two handed techniques going in to directions, especially in butterfly palms. Now some people are able to imitate the movements instantly, but then you have thinkers who hold the class back because they are too busy with trying to understand the movement instead of just doing it.

so i tried another route---teaching apps first---then when we got to the part of the form with the butterfly palms they know how to do the move because they learned how to use it first.

Under my sifu, you only got to see him do it once or twice before he gets upset that you aren't taking it all in. so i learned to intensely watch and do at the same time as he is doint it. he then leaves you alone so you can figure it out for yourself.

but what ever works best at the time is the best way.

HSK

[GreenCloudCLF]

I like going through quickly and work from there. As I see it Chinese forms are a flowing motion, producing energy. Stopping and going cuts the energy, and may cause a loss of techniques which may be hidden in the transition steps.

As for apps, once you have a little experience, you should be able to disect a form and find apps, even ones not shown to you.

Plus fast=cardio:D

[hskwarrior]

see my beginners only learn 3 handed combinations so when i teach CHe Kuen i break it down and practice certain combo's such as kwa sow chop it's in che kuen.

i may take the butterfly palms step up from a sei ping ma into a din ji ma and thrust palm. i make them practice that over and over and when they do the forms they already understand it ahead of time. the only thing left to work on is mastering it.


hsk

[Fu-Pow]

I think learning the body mechanics is most important. When teaching a form I make sure that the students alignment is correct and posture is correct. Usually, very slow piece by piece.

If I can tell that the student doesn't get the idea behind the motion then I will show an application of the movement.

As far as I applications I have been taught two different ways....1) show several possible applications and drill them with a partner 2) work mostly on form, rarely show it and leave you to figure it out on your own.

I understand the rationale behind 2) because the teacher wants the student to devote some time to figuring out how the form works for them. However, I prefer 1) because most students rarely will take the time to figure that out on their own with a training partner.

The bad thing about teaching that way, however, is that students don't get the same cardio workout they would if you did a class of continuous forms.

So I think the ultimate might be to very your class between conditioning through forms and drilling applications. That's how my original Hung Gar Sifu taugh us. One day puking our guts out doing forms, the next day working mostly application.

Peace

[n.mitch]

step by step is good so you get it right before you move on, learning the applications is good because then you understand why and how you use it instead of not understanding and just going throught the motions

[Oso]

slow and fast are relative so I'll say 'moderately'.
but, i like to learn, and tend to teach the form all the way through first. Albeit, phrase by phrase until they have it down. That way, the student has more to practice on their own.

For example: Bung Bu. I try to teach the entire set, including Ling, over 4 months. There are four roads so I teach first road including ling in the first month...aiming for the student to actually learn it in a week and train it for another three weeks then add the second road and so on.

I guess the way we do it in Pong Lai you are learning the form and 'basic' application through the ling, which I think is good.

my old teacher would teach 3-5 moves and then show an app or two.

[JamesC]

HskWarrior,

I am currently training in Pak Hok Pai. I originally started out wanting to learn kung fu, but with the area I am in there is everything except KF. So, after trying every style you can think of, I found a kung fu school. It took about four years of searching to find it(it is private, no advertising in any way).

For the most part, my previous training was done under Sifu Marc McFann, who is certified under Dan Inosanto, Pak Herman Suwanda, and Ajarn Chai. I loved it, but due to my work schedule and financial trouble, I had to quit going for a while. While on this "break", I was surfing the internent when I found an instructor relatively close to me that taught kung fu.

I am still working on getting the footwork down right now. I haven't even begun the forms yet.

My opinion is based off of traditional karate forms. That's how I liked to learn it then. I don't know how my new sifu will teach me though.

[shuaichiao]

understanding the applications helps you to get the transitions from one posture into the next right. It's the transitions that are the actual techniques. The postures are points where you check yourself for balance and proper alignment.

[SimonM]

As far as I'm concerned there shouldn't be any static postures by the time you've gone through the nth repetition of the form. And you should learn the applications as you learn the form (or before) so that you can keep them in mind while you practice.

[joedoe]

I like to learn forms through, though not sloppily. I like to get the feel and flow of the combinations before anything else.

[Oso]

understanding the applications helps you to get the transitions from one posture into the next right. It's the transitions that are the actual techniques. The postures are points where you check yourself for balance and proper alignment.


Bingo. Not too much attention is paid to that fact.

I do think that approaching application too soon is a road to improper structure and power generation.

All in all it's a balancing act with each individual student...that's where the 'art' of teaching comes in to play.

[Mr Punch]

yep-I agree, and that wasn't in your poll-teach the moves, drill the sh!t out of them, reaction drills, hands on, bags,THEN teach the form. Good point.


but now, with my students i teach them the combo's before i teach them the set. the reason for that is when we get to a certain section that has some nice combo's they won't have to wait the next year to master the moves. they are doing it before they learned the form. but when they do do the form, they look that much better, understand what they are doing better than just doing the movements blindly.Thinking about it I learnt Sil Lum Tao section by section, app by app, on the bag and in live drills and chi sao and light sparring, and my teacher started showing me elements of Chum Kiu and even Biu Gee that fit into what we'd learnt to use from SLT way before he taught me those two. Maybe it's more useful learning SLT with its very basic stances and vectors before progressing on to the other two.


As I see it Chinese forms are a flowing motion, producing energy. Stopping and going cuts the energy, and may cause a loss of techniques which may be hidden in the transition steps.
Sure, but in most forms I've learnt there are natural stop-start points. SLT is traditionally three sections but it can easily and naturally be broken up into others.


As far as I'm concerned there shouldn't be any static postures by the time you've gone through the nth repetition of the form. Good point too. In such forms as SLT where it's all in one posture, testing the posture as you go, against the wall bag, and in drills etc, helps you to develop a kind of 'live', dynamic connection to the stance so you don't just train it static.

Which brings me back to the question to those who learn the whole thing quickly: are there not a lot of points that you have to unlearn? And how to you get any intent... how is it anything other than emptily waving your arms about at first?

(BTW to the those who said about the cardio aspects it's irrelevant to how you learn the form. When you learn it slowly you can still practise quickly later to develop the cardio.)

[PangQuan]

i cant choose one of those.

it depends on the person, the form, and the application in question.

[JamesC]

So I learned the first five movements of the CMC Yang style form on Tuesday night.

I'm gonna have to change my answer. I liked learning the apps with the movements.

As someone said, it helped me visualize each movement.