What truely works? what doesnt? (mma)

[tuna fish]

i thought it was already proven what works and what doesnt as far as martial arts goes. here are a few videos and i want to hear what you guys think of these PROVEN fighters. im totally skeptical about kung-fu styles working in real life situations. heres a few videos i wanted to share, please enjoy them.


no need to download, just click and watch. these are very entertaining. enjoy
notice the arm snapping towards the end!

http://www.youtube.com/w/Frank-Mir-MMA?v=JvNWvISiiIo&search=frank%20mir

this man considered the greatest fighter in the world

http://www.youtube.com/w/Fedor-HL?v=dI6BZ0FMV7w&search=fedor

TKD vs. grappling
http://www.youtube.com/w/TKD-VS.-MMA%28Cage-Match%29?v=l9Sf72k8FKg&search=mma

http://www.youtube.com/w/Quinton-Jackson-HL?v=4CY4ZT3J7rU&search=mma

http://www.youtube.com/w/mma-desire?v=7ro3nRP-d3g&search=mma

kung fu vs. gracie juijitsu
http://www.youtube.com/w/Royce-Gracie-v.s.-Jason-Delucia?v=jFWw46P-6WM&search=mma

http://www.youtube.com/w/Kazushia-Sakuraba?v=hgMi-SbuP5w&search=mma

[MasterKiller]

im totally skeptical about kung-fu styles working in real life situations

So why are you here?

[tuna fish]

no comment???

i guess i would be alittle upset too if i trained all my life in snake fist kung-fu only to get beat down by some kid with 3 months of BJJ training.

[MasterKiller]

if i trained all my life in snake fist kung-fu only to get beat down by some kid with 3 months of BJJ training

You have a Link to this?

[tuna fish]

that was directed at all you guys! all you kung-fu guys would get destroyed by any high school wrestler. im just stating the OBVIOUS, its been proven that kung-fu does not work.

another thing, why do they teach not to fight in certain arts, is it because the master knows their students cannot fight.

taking martial arts like kung-fu give people a false sense of security. these guys get out of the dojo just itching to strike someone dead with the dim mak, little do they know they are due for a serious ass kicking.

wake up people, the stuff you guys train in will only get your ass kicked!

[MasterKiller]

No video means it didn't happen.

[Watchman]

wake up people, the stuff you guys train in will only get your ass kicked!

Doesn't look like I've missed much since I've been gone.

[tuna fish]

DID YOU READ MY POST? WHEN DID I SAY IT EVER HAPPENED TO ME?

im sure it happens to you guys on a regular basis! i tried to be nice but already i can see the attacks pouring in. its painfully obvious that MMA was the worst thing that could have happened to you guys because it completely destroyed the myth that kung-fu masters were badass when the truth is, they would get completely dominated and destroyed by any true mma fighter!

any of you guys wouldnt last 20 seconds with a high school wrestler

check out the video of a teenage royce gracie completely destroying a real kung fu fighter who actaully has quite a few fights.

http://www.youtube.com/w/Royce-Gracie-v.s.-Jason-Delucia?v=jFWw46P-6WM&search=royce%20gracie


AS FOR YOU MASTERKILLER

why dont you post some video's of kung fu actaully working against mma?

[tuna fish]

im sure all of you probably could beat him but choose not to because it is against everything you stand for. i mean, come on, hes only man who participates in sanctioned fights against real ranking opponents. that should be no match for the 7 deadly styles of kung fu.

http://www.youtube.com/w/Frank-Mir-MMA?v=JvNWvISiiIo&search=frank%20mir

[MasterKiller]

AS FOR YOU MASTERKILLER

why dont you post some video's of kung fu actaully working against mma?

OK. As soon as you post some videos of MMA guys beating San Shou fighters.

[MasterKiller]

Can you beat him?

[Jules]

that was directed at all you guys!
all you kung-fu guys would get destroyed by any high school wrestler. im just stating the OBVIOUS, its been proven that kung-fu does not work.

Blah blah blah etc



wake up people, the stuff you guys train in will only get your ass kicked!

All of which translates as, "I am a serial troll, pls ignore me, Kthxbai!

~~Jules

[Chief Fox]

I hear that tuna fish is 97% water. Is that true?

What exactly is the purpose of your post? Are you trying to say that kung fu doesn't work? If you are, then say it.

I find it interesting that the guy in the video actually does a chinese salutation before one of his fights. Maybe he has a CMA background otherwise, why the chinese salutation?

No doubt, the guy is a good fighter.

[tuna fish]

are you reffering to cung le? if so, the man refuses to fight real competition. i could post videos of him beating up tomato cans all day but what would that prove? and who ever mentioned anything about san shou? the fact is simple, you are trying to cop out, i presented an arguement, posted videos that back up my arguement, you guys are all jokes!

i just posted a bunch of videos of mma and mma destroying other arts, you have yet to post ONE single video of anything! ill tell you why, because there is no proof of kung fu beating any style! kung fu masters say they can beat anyone but they refuse to fight! i call bull**** on every shaolin master in the history of martial arts!

bruce lee even said that any man with a few months of wrestling and western boxing training would defeat any kung fu master.

the truth hurts doesnt it!

mma KO1 kung fu

[MasterKiller]

http://www.iamimmortal.com/OG/bjgay.wmv

In every MMA fight, one guy always loses. Therefore, MMA only works 50% of the time.

[MasterKiller]

Ian Freeman beat Frank Mir. That means Mir sucks.

[Chief Fox]

Wow, we all admire your video posting and uninformed verbal attacking skills. So what do you train in? What's your fight record? When have you tested your skills? Where's the video?

[tuna fish]

I hear that tuna fish is 97% water. Is that true?

What exactly is the purpose of your post? Are you trying to say that kung fu doesn't work? If you are, then say it.

I find it interesting that the guy in the video actually does a chinese salutation before one of his fights. Maybe he has a CMA background otherwise, why the chinese salutation?

No doubt, the guy is a good fighter.

the guys name is frank mir, my personall favorite

heres another favorite if you like seeing unorthodox fighting

http://www.youtube.com/w/Genki-Sudo-Highlight?v=UU6653QBK4M&search=genki%20sudo

[David Jamieson]

His mother beat him all throughout his boyhood.

Hey tunafish, you another fanboy over from nuthuggers anon come here to give us a lesson in the Real 574337 D34D1y?

lol

[MasterKiller]

Genki Sudo believes in Chi blasts.

[Chief Fox]

the guys name is frank mir, my personall favorite...
Your favorite what?

ASSCLOWN?

[David Jamieson]

that was directed at all you guys! all you kung-fu guys would get destroyed by any high school wrestler. im just stating the OBVIOUS, its been proven that kung-fu does not work.

another thing, why do they teach not to fight in certain arts, is it because the master knows their students cannot fight.

taking martial arts like kung-fu give people a false sense of security. these guys get out of the dojo just itching to strike someone dead with the dim mak, little do they know they are due for a serious ass kicking.

wake up people, the stuff you guys train in will only get your ass kicked!

Hey Tuna fish. Why are you here? Go back to fanboy nuthugger.com and drool over naked mmaers as you flip between clips and mattbatlle photo pages. :rolleyes:

where do these guys come from and could someone please kick his sorry ass to the cub before we are once again polluted by the rants and raves of yet another fanboy.

p.s, my snake fist will defeat any 3 month trained in any thing.

[MasterKiller]

Your favorite what?

ASSCLOWN?

His favorite masturbation material.

[tuna fish]

im just trying to figure out why so many kung fu masters claim they can do so much BS but never back it up! why do you guys continue to train in something that was proven to not work?

the entire point of ufc was to introduce the world to GJJ, which was unknown to most around the world at the time. time has passed, you would see alot of guys claiming to be kung fu fighters get completely destroyed and dominated by grapplers.

eventually all the weak styles were weeded out and the ones that actually work are still being used today.


as for my training, was a former high school wrestler. went to states, got eliminated in the first round, placed first in regionals twice. western harnett high, considered to be the second best school for wrestling in NC, fuquay varina being first. do enough research, you might find me which is alot more then what i would find on all you unknown kung fu masters.


http://www.youtube.com/w/Wanderlei-Silva?v=RFYULNsMfVs&search=mma%20silva

[GreenCloudCLF]

why do you guys continue to train in something that was proven to not work?


Proven By whom?


eventually all the weak styles were weeded out and the ones that actually work are still being used today.

Actually today's UFC has people in a mixed (hence MMA) background, including striking from Chinese styles...


as for my training, was a former high school wrestler. went to states, got eliminated in the first round, placed first in regionals twice. western harnett high, considered to be the second best school for wrestling in NC, fuquay varina being first.

When I was 18 and only had Kung Fu training I choked out a regional wrestling champion who had 15 lbs on me...was this you?

I have no BJJ experience yet beat a wrestler (at his own ground game)...with Kung Fu knowledge only...

[MasterKiller]

why do you guys continue to train in something that was proven to not work?

My stuff works all the time.

[GreenCloudCLF]

I haven't even read this post, why is it the MMA vs. Kung-Fu threads blow up so quickly?

[hskwarrior]

personally i could care less about the law. if i meet a grappler on the street and he uses arm bars and sheet like that i'm liable to use fu jows to tear at muscles and maim body parts.

Professional fighting is all good but not everyone is a professional fighter, but some of us have to use our gung fu on the street. but i think i would have joined the UFC if i was never parallyzed from the waist down. plus i'm 38 this year and wish it all came alot sooner.

but who's to say that we all couldn't train like ufc fighters without becoming one to keep up our skills, especially as teachers.

unless this new guy is the one on the video, by pass him. he's only talking smack.


peace

[@PLUGO]

I came accross Tuna Fish at about post #4... by post #5 I asked him to chill out or get banned. Posts 6-9 where all inflamatory posts... "this guy can beat you up etc." Starting threds titled "The whole world is laughing at you" indicated his inability to do more than troll.

I took him down. His web-fu was weak. carry on the coversation to your hearts content.

[TenTigers]

One, tuna fish-Subitai fought and won a UFC-and he is Hung-Ga, um that's a style of Kung-Fu.
Two-I have only seen one other "Kung-Fu" guy fight Gracie-and it is doubtful he was actually a Kung-Fu practitioner at all. By the way he fought and moved, I'd say he was mostly some made up style, or a beginner.
Three-why are you trying so hard? Is there some reason why you are actually here, or are you alsogoing on the judo, Karate,etc boards as well?
Did you have a bad experience at a Kung-Fu school? What is your story?
Why the name tuna fish?

[lkfmdc]

Awww, by the time I showed up he's been crushed, added to mayo and spread out on the toast of moderation... :mad:

I went to a seminar with SHogun and Ninja yesterday... lots of fun

[GreenCloudCLF]

TT,

tuna fish cause of the smell from his vagina...you know being to much of a p*ssy to challenge a Kung Fu man face to face and go the internet route instead

[Jules]

THe troll is hungry. Don't feed it, and it will go away.

~~Jules

[ChinoXL]

o.. guess i'm a little too late to shed some light to this poor kid :p okay wells i'mma tell you this... why kung-fu works.. okay? i too do bjj so dun worry about that. if you want me to verify how legit i am i go to serra jitsu at huntington training under matt serra. difference in kung fu is that they would rip your skin.. grab your nuts, gouge your eyes, etc.. which is unbelivabily painful.. and the skin thing has been done to me.. that itself made me not want to go for the armbar because i fear that he will try to rip my nuts.. (true story not fun) and people do bite.. ANYWAYS why kung-fu works.. bjj works sure only on a 1v1 sitution .. which in any case is rare in a street fight. Most likely you'll be ganged up by 3-5 or more people .. and when you do a double leg take down on one kid.. they'll play soccer with your head.. Now .. kung-fu is good for FASTEST MOST EFFICENT WAY to take somebody out.. in other words.. MMA goes for a double leg take down//fireman whatever ... the CMA guy in reality will try to dig his fingers in your eye and proceed to pull.. well that's my 2 cents

[Merryprankster]

MMA goes for a double leg take down//fireman whatever ... the CMA guy in reality will try to dig his fingers in your eye and proceed to pull.. well that's my 2 cents

Ummm... No?

In reality, the guy who tries this will, 99% of the time or more, wind up on his back.

[hskwarrior]

actually as i said earlier, i may end up on my back you can get me into a head lock, arm bar, or whateve, but if i start ripping into your flesh and tearing it wide open, yank your ear off your head, or even pop your nuts (squish) i'm sure it will turn the tides. the person being ripped up won't want to get ripped up anymore.

and lets not forget, it's not the techniques you use but the user of the techniqeus is what makes it work.

hsk

[Green Cloud]

i thought it was already proven what works and what doesnt as far as martial arts goes. here are a few videos and i want to hear what you guys think of these PROVEN fighters. im totally skeptical about kung-fu styles working in real life situations. heres a few videos i wanted to share, please enjoy them.


no need to download, just click and watch. these are very entertaining. enjoy
notice the arm snapping towards the end!

http://www.youtube.com/w/Frank-Mir-MMA?v=JvNWvISiiIo&search=frank%20mir

this man considered the greatest fighter in the world

http://www.youtube.com/w/Fedor-HL?v=dI6BZ0FMV7w&search=fedor

TKD vs. grappling
http://www.youtube.com/w/TKD-VS.-MMA%28Cage-Match%29?v=l9Sf72k8FKg&search=mma

http://www.youtube.com/w/Quinton-Jackson-HL?v=4CY4ZT3J7rU&search=mma

http://www.youtube.com/w/mma-desire?v=7ro3nRP-d3g&search=mma

kung fu vs. gracie juijitsu
http://www.youtube.com/w/Royce-Gracie-v.s.-Jason-Delucia?v=jFWw46P-6WM&search=mma

http://www.youtube.com/w/Kazushia-Sakuraba?v=hgMi-SbuP5w&search=mma


I watched all these vids and personaly I don't get it. Can you say wwf??? One of the first styles I studied was Jiu-jitsu for 7 years way before people ever herd of it. Never felt comfotable using it in a fight. Perhaps it was because I didn't like using my face to close the gap. I was conflicted, Iwanted something more superior.

I didn't feel it was nessary to be a big mean steroid monster to be able to protect myself. Anyway I took kung fu while studying jiu-jitsu and found that not only did kung fu provide me with lots of striking techniqes but it also had lots of throwing tech., joint locking tech., and groud fighting.

Well I figured I could trane in bunch of different martial arts to fill in all the gaps, but that would make me a jack of all trades and a master of none. Or I can Invest my life in one complete martial art.

I fought many grapplers in my life and never lost once. It was actualy childs play, not that having prior knowledge of other styles didn't help me defeat other stylist.

I had a bunch of Gracie guys rent space in my kwoon for a while and were convinced upon meeting me that they would convert me. well I was as polite as I could be so I let them show me there stuff, hey I'm not stupid. When it came to fighting me they didn't stand a chance.

Now in kung fu we don't trane as hard as we do to be rolling around with some big sweaty guy. Hey maybee if I was gay I might like some guy sweating all over me.

The chinese martial arts is more sophisticated than that. We train to plunge our fingers though an atackers eyes, or to detach one testicles. Focus is a big part of the traning since most of our strikes are aimed at vital areas and are designed to maim or kill.

As far as the video with the kung fu guy that was fighting a Gracie, well I watched it and that guy didn't look like he knew kung fu, I thought the Gracie guy was the kung fu guy at first.

Size matters when it comes to grappling, in Kung fu you try to develop inner strength and superior martial art technique in order to defeat an opponent.

I hear Chung Lee is going to be in the UFC soon lets see what happens.

[rogue]

OMG, Not the dreaded high school wrestler again.:eek:


Doesn't look like I've missed much since I've been gone. Sorry I dragged you back bro. :D

[Watchman]

Sorry I dragged you back bro.

LOL! I'll have to check myself back into the methadone clinic again.

[Merryprankster]

actually as i said earlier, i may end up on my back you can get me into a head lock, arm bar, or whateve, but if i start ripping into your flesh and tearing it wide open, yank your ear off your head, or even pop your nuts (squish) i'm sure it will turn the tides. the person being ripped up won't want to get ripped up anymore.

Jesus, not this stuff again.

First, as for tearing flesh, I offer the following - go get a raw turkey from the store and try tearing it apart with your bare hands. Get back to me when you can do this.

Secondly, assuming that you aren't engaged in a fight with a drunken fratboy any "good grappler" (tm) is going to be in a far better position to do all the things you are talking about at that point than you are.

Thirdly, these are not necessarily fight enders, nor do they incapacitate. By contrast, armbreaks and choking somebody until they pass out are much more effective in terms of taking the fight out of somebody. I have been hit, squished, kicked in the jumblies and not all of the shots are the sort that make you sit down. Some are mind you.

Fourth and finally, you had best get them right because you're looking at pretty much a one shot deal. I hope they are in reach for you, which they may not be, and I hope you nail it on the first go, because unless you know what you are doing on the ground w/regards to positioning, there is a strong possibility that you are not going to get that chance again.

The people here with groundfighting experience will probably echo my sentiments.

In case people are thinking I'm on the Kung Fu doesn't work bandwagon, that's not true at all. Good training is good training, period, and I've met too many people who've trained in too many different things and been quite good at what they do. Note that I am not talking about the whole "fight experience," am discussing two specific things - defense to takedowns and groundfighting tactics - which I think, perhaps, I've got some insight to.

[hskwarrior]

you can believe what you want, but i am no martial artist without substance. first and foremost im a street fighter, as you should know being from oakland, a street fighter can out whip a good martial artist. since i got both in me i fare pretty well.

plus, if i jab your eyes and you can't see anything you better be good at blind ground work.

i talk about the tiger claw usage because i've used it and tore someone wide open the first time. see i train my tiger claw and i know where to reach. if you think the nuts or your face is the only thing in danger then you are clueless to what real fu jow usage is about.

this is no argument, you have your opinion and i have mine. for me i know what works and what doesn't. And I talk about what i know.

what part of oakland are you from?


what is your style? do you practice around the lake?

[hskwarrior]

oh yeah, the ear is one of the easiest parts of your body to tear off.;)

[hskwarrior]

doesn't tuna fish smell? i never liked sea food anyway.

i don't think anyone cares about tuna fish. He comes on just like a teenager too proud for his own good. he keeps asking who could beat this guy or that guy. what i want to know is who can you beat tuna fish?

you are calling everyone jokes, yet you haven't revealed your self. so its just all talk from where you stand, thats ok, if you're bored and have nothing to do its ok, talk all the sh1t you want. it is what it is.........sh1t, isn't it?


hsk

[greendragon]

Those videos were not fights, they were commercials, only hype.
As concluded before, it is the man and not the style that wins or loses.
Merry Prankster, you have my respect and may be the most knowledgable fighter on the board. I have easily defeated MMA/BJJ guys with Kung Fu on the street, but only because they were amateurs or they would not be out in the bars attacking people. Probably wanting to impress their friends and alcohol clouds their judgement. They could get hurt that way. I don't pick fights but I look like a hippy so skin heads kind of gravitate my way. I always try to use arm bars or aikido techniques to be compassionate as they might have mamas who love them.

[FatherDog]

hsk - have you ever torn someone's ear off?

Have you ever eyegouged a wrestler attempting to take you down?

[unkokusai]

actually as i said earlier, i may end up on my back you can get me into a head lock, arm bar, or whateve, but if i start ripping into your flesh and tearing it wide open, yank your ear off your head, or even pop your nuts (squish) i'm sure it will turn the tides. the person being ripped up won't want to get ripped up anymore.


Ugh. There's never a shortage of this BS! :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

I fought many grapplers in my life and never lost once. It was actualy childs play, not that having prior knowledge of other styles didn't help me defeat other stylist.

I had a bunch of Gracie guys rent space in my kwoon for a while and were convinced upon meeting me that they would convert me. well I was as polite as I could be so I let them show me there stuff, hey I'm not stupid. When it came to fighting me they didn't stand a chance.

Now in kung fu we don't trane as hard as we do to be rolling around with some big sweaty guy. Hey maybee if I was gay I might like some guy sweating all over me.

The chinese martial arts is more sophisticated than that. We train to plunge our fingers though an atackers eyes, or to detach one testicles. Focus is a big part of the traning since most of our strikes are aimed at vital areas and are designed to maim or kill..


..........as I was saying............................:rolleyes:

[ChinoXL]

Quote:
Merryprankster's
Ummm... No?
In reality, the guy who tries this will, 99% of the time or more, wind up on his back.


okay even when the guy is on his back it is easy for him to get to your eyes especially if they apply the guard.. if you want to get technical fine. I did a double leg take down and I was in a kung-fu guys guard (my good friend in mantis school) .. you kno what he did? he tore my flesh from the inner thigh.. and IT HURTS~!!! i jumped up.. and that second i did he got out.. and it's weird it's like suprise pain.. have someone squeeze a little peice of your inner thigh as hard as they can.. remember a little peice :rolleyes: BUT i've strayed from point.. it is easy for ppl to dig fingers in your eye.. especially with adrennaline..

[unkokusai]

.............as I was saying..................:rolleyes:

[ChinoXL]

i dunno wat ur sayin buh it hurts :mad:

[hskwarrior]

only the stupid focks like this unkokusaid cat.

let him swim in all his ingorance.:rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

ok who let the special (yellow bus) kids out? one of the got into our part of the playground.:confused:

[unkokusai]

let him swim in all his ingorance.:rolleyes:


Yeah, let me swim in all my ignorance. You bet your ass on scratching and biting and eye-poking instead of being able to actually fight, but I'll swim in ignorance.:rolleyes:

[Nick Forrer]

Jesus Christ there is a lot of bollocks on this thread:eek: ..........grappling will give you (amongst other things)........balance, posture, controls/grips/ties and movement - especially of the hips. All these things increase your ability to eye gouge, bite and grab flesh and also your ability to neutralise your opponents attempts to do the same. If you dont train it (ground fighting) dont bank on your ability to magically be able to do it under pressure when the shi_t its the fan.

And as for the grappling = gay comment thats says more about the posters insecurities and prejudices than those who recognise that ground and clinch are elements of any fight and should be trained rather then just to put the head in the sand and hope it all goes away.;)

[hskwarrior]

will someone come control the little retarded kid? he want's to play with the big kids, but he's going to get hurt.

anyways grappling is fine and nice to have in your arsenal, but you have to be a ufc fighter to beat a tough ass street fighter who has nothing to lose. your average everyday martial artist does not train with such intensity.

when it comes to the waist and hips and such, choy lee fut is a great way to go.

grappling is a nice supplement, don't get me wrong. but my gung fu system has a lot of good things in it.

peace.

somebody come pick up the retarded kid from koko

[David Jamieson]

One, tuna fish-Subitai fought and won a UFC-and he is Hung-Ga, um that's a style of Kung-Fu.


In all fairness, I think it's best to Let O talk about his UFC stuff and what his influences were there. I think he attributed quite a bit to fma in what I read, but I would let him speak to that. He is a member here, like a few others who regularly fight in sportive combative venues.

Anyway, good call DS! You da man, da man wit da sharpie pen!

God, I was only cringing at having to endure the taunts of yet another nuthugger fanboy.

[Merryprankster]

Merry Prankster, you have my respect and may be the most knowledgable fighter on the board.

I appreciate your respect, thank you. I don't know that I am the most knowledgeable fighter on the board, however. I think you will find that there are several others here with more experience and more knowledge than me.

hskwarrior,

I do not train in any TCMA. I never have. I have ten years of grappling experience, and a smattering of boxing.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinions - but, I do urge you to seek out some "good grapplers" regardless of style and try the things you are talking about. I suspect you will be as unpleasantly surprised as many straight wrestlers are when they try MMA for the first time, thinking their straight wrestling will get them through - it's a different ball of wax when somebody is trying to hit you and submit you.

re the ear: I have had my ear partway torn off in a wrestling match. It was not a fight ender. I didn't know it until my headgear filled up with blood and began pouring down the side of my head. It made quite a mess.


he tore my flesh from the inner thigh.. and IT HURTS~!!!

Define tear. Was there significant bleeding? Separation of tissue from body? Secondly, pain is just pain. You get used to it. People dig elbows into my inner thigh all the time...discomfort is an inherent part of grappling. You learn very quickly what is danger and what is merely unpleasant.


okay even when the guy is on his back it is easy for him to get to your eyes especially if they apply the guard..

I disagree. "Good grapplers" bury their head, shut space down, immobilize your hips and isolate the body part they want to attack. A "poke" in the eye is merely annoying. I wrestled an entire match with double vision and screwed up depth perception because of an accidental poke in the eye. I also won. Grappling is extremely tactile - this is why so many blind people wrestle and do quite well. I don't need to be able to see to continue. In fact, "blind" training is often part of regular grappling training. It develops sensitivity to subtle shifts in balance and movement.


BUT i've strayed from point.. it is easy for ppl to dig fingers in your eye.

I disagree. Think about how hard it is simply to punch somebody in the face if they don't want you to. When I boxed, if I landed 9 solid shots per round, I was doing pretty good, as was my opponent. Examine the punch counts of professional boxers and you will see, on average, only a 20-30% land rate. The eyes are but a small part of the face. They are small targets and moving. In order to really gouge an eye you need a couple of things:

1. The opponents head must be relatively still.
2. You need to have something the head will brace against, (like the other hand) because they are going to jerk backwards when you stick your digit in their eye, which negates the gouge.

Now, you could hold their head with one hand and gouge with the other. But you're going to need to find a way to immobilize their body too, because they aren't just going to move their head around, but their body too. But nobody with an ounce of sense is simply going to let you do this - and the target and weapon are both small. Further, with adrenalin pumping, studies have consistently shown that fine motor skills DECREASE, rather than increase. This means that accuracy goes down.

Can it happen? You bet! Would it be effective to gouge out an eye - probably, although there is no guarentee it would end the fight. Is it LIKELY? I don't think it is. This is what I would refer to as a "low percentage" technique. Nice to have in your back pocket, but not the stuff fighting skill is made of.

BTW, how much grappling experience do you have? You refer to double leg takedown, but I've often seen "the drunken fratboy tackle" passed off as a double leg in demonstrations, when, in fact, it's nothing of the sort. I'm trying to gauge what you actually did, not be an *******.

[ChinoXL]

sure i'll tell you exacitly what happened.. i've been rolling for a good year.. and was wrestling in highschooll.. really into all martial arts..

So what happened is that it's a "friendly" match but it wasn't pleasent.. My favorite takedown without gi is the single leg take down with your head inside and you're tripping the remaining leg that's standing and using your head to take them down (usually in half guard after this). Did that takedown and from half guard he did some weird grip.. like a panther claw thing and twisted inside my inner thigh.. I was suprised by the pain and jumped a little bit.. as that happened that quick second I've got lucky and got him in the full mount.. and could of gotten him in a arm bar.. BUTTT because of what he did he installed a little fear factor inside me so i didn't want to lose it and get tore some more (if i get stacked while attempting armbar).. then he pinched my balls.. i've tapped.. i swear he was holding me by the balls.. literally..

well.. i actually dun think eye gouging is that easy.. but when someone put their palm on your face they'll try to dig fingers in your eye.. not slowly .. but a quick nail digging jam. Never personally happened to me.. but i could see how it could be done.

By the way elbow thigh is slow pain compared to the panther grip which is more like a electric shock..

[bigdoing]

Frank Mir: Well, during my training I always look more to finish a fight. That probably came from my history in stand-up with my father in the Kenpo Karate school. I had always done more what looked like kickboxing than ground. I didn’t actually do ground until I was 19 or 20 years old. I didn’t know what jiu-jitsu looked like before I even walked into a gym. I went through that strategy when I came to stand-up and said “OK, why sit here and exchange 15 shots and extend the fight? I had known that the longer the fight lasts, the chances are anybody can get caught or hurt. So as soon as an opponent would make a mistake, and do something that could decisively cause damage, such that the fight starts to lean in your favor - not necessarily look to finish the fight, because sometimes that can make you overextend yourself, but definitely every moment I can make my opponent pay for a mistake or a mis-step. So I pretty much transfer that into my jiu-jitsu and say, “OK, the minute you make a mistake I’m going to grab something and try to cause damage, so if I break your arm, you can’t use it anymore.”

http://www.boxinginsider.com/mma/stories/77370735.php

Well, considering Frank Mir was what? in his mid twenties during that posted clip...that means like 80% of his life he studied kenpo..whic, we know is not traditional chinese martial arts...but....as hskwarrior will atest..if ed parker learned some clf..then....SHUT THE FIZZLE UP

[unkokusai]

So what happened is that it's a "friendly" match but it wasn't pleasent.. My favorite takedown without gi is the single leg take down with your head inside and you're tripping the remaining leg that's standing and using your head to take them down (usually in half guard after this). Did that takedown and from half guard he did some weird grip.. like a panther claw thing and twisted inside my inner thigh.. I was suprised by the pain and jumped a little bit.. as that happened that quick second I've got lucky and got him in the full mount.. and could of gotten him in a arm bar.. BUTTT because of what he did he installed a little fear factor inside me so i didn't want to lose it and get tore some more (if i get stacked while attempting armbar).. then he pinched my balls.. i've tapped.. i swear he was holding me by the balls.. literally.. ..


Don't take this the wrong way, but you sound like a wuss.

[greendragon]

I was knocked down on the street once and used a thumb in the eye with eagle claw I thought I had ripped the guys face off. That and a solid throat punch had no effect because the gangbanger was wired on drugs. It was the punch to the nads that detered him from finishing me. Although I was on the ground, having a technical advantage did no good because the blow that put me there made me weak, could barely move my arms & legs, I stayed down and focused all my energy into one shot, good thing that worked. I lost that one but am now much wiser for it.

[Green Cloud]

..........as I was saying............................:rolleyes:


Unkokusai, you have many valid points and I do understand some of the points that you are making. I have a question for you, where do you think jiu jitsu came from?? I'l anwere that for you it came from kung fu. Or how about mu tai, you guessed it kung fu. How about karate yup from okinawa taught to the peasants by a monk from shaolin. Wresteling well being 100% greek I wana say greece but some people will argue it came from india but inevitably it ended up at shaolin and then was perfected even further.

My point Unkokusai is that kung fu is mixed martial arts wich makes this conversation pointless. I started out a devoted follower of jiu jitsu, but found the style was limmited.

Once I learned Kung Fu became a good striker and didn't have to go to the ground every time someone attacked me made my life easier. I hate going to the ground it sucks you get all skuffed up cut and sustain more damage from the pavement grading the skin off your back.

It just doesn't make sense to volentarily go to the ground especialy when in most fights youre being attacked by several people, and while you are in the mounted position humping your oponent youre getting stabbed.

Wresteling or jiu jitsu works only between gentleman in an arena with rules. The very meaning of jiu jitu is the gentle mens art. It's all about subduewing an apponent without hurting him.

excuse my spelling it's late. In short I think we should familiarize ourselves in different systems of martial arts so we can figure out how to defeat them with our own system.

I love my style and am intregued by other styles. It suits me, but fight me not my style, because if I loose it's not my system that failed me but simply that I failed.

[Green Cloud]

My last post was directed to merryprankster not unkokasi not realys shure who unkokusai is or what his point was.

sorry for the missunderstanding I got confused who I was replying too.

[ChinoXL]

to unkokusai, have anybody held you by the balls literally? how would you be a wuss when they got your babies? To tell you the truth I did NOT expect it. I was going with the bjj format and the kung-fu guy was doing their own thing. Get a kung-fu guy to panther grip your inner thigh with a 90 degree twist it was the first time i've ever felt that and it was pain inflicted in such a way that I wasn't use to; wouldn't you do a little jump if you weren't prepared for it? and then ask him to get your balls (it's now in his hands).. tell me how that feels especially if that's the first time someone had ever attacked you there. AND EXCUSE ME FOR MAKING THE STORY A LITTLE MORE DRAMATIC.. I THOUGHT IT WAS FUNNY TO SHARE A MISHAP and in my experience everytime i was in a street fight i was either outnumbered and they had weapons or it's a rumble with weapons however the school fights in highschool was 1d and i taken them to ground bjj works great

[unkokusai]

to unkokusai, have anybody held you by the balls literally?


Are you coming on to me? You need to stop that. Hommie don't play dat.

[unkokusai]

Get a kung-fu guy to panther grip your inner thigh with a 90 degree twist it was the first time i've ever felt that and it was pain inflicted in such a way that I wasn't use to; wouldn't you do a little jump if you weren't prepared for it?


If your message is that you need to toughen up a bit, then go for it. Don't try to find 'rules' in your *ahem* sensitivity.

[unkokusai]

Wresteling well being 100% greek I wana say greece but some people will argue it came from india but inevitably it ended up at shaolin and then was perfected even further..


I see. Wrestling ended up at Shaolin and was 'perfected' there? You are just guzzling the Koolaide now.:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

Wresteling or jiu jitsu works only between gentleman in an arena with rules. The very meaning of jiu jitu is the gentle mens art. It's all about subduewing an apponent without hurting him.
.


I very sincerely believe that you understand little of a practical nature about either and are swimming in the Koolaide.

[Mr Punch]

I have a question for you, where do you think jiu jitsu came from?? I'l anwere that for you it came from kung fu. Jiu jitsu is not a word. Jujutsu comes from Japan. There are suggestions that it came with the first settlers in Japan from China or Korea up to a couple of thousand years BC. There are also suggestions that it came from China in any of the successive migrations. There is absolutely no evidence. Furthermore there are no linguistic similarities in jujutsu and any Chinese expressions, unlike 'karate' which means 'China fist' for example. There is however some evidence that the oldest jujutsu styles were started around the 12th century in Japan (written evidence in terms of scrolls of foundation), and further some evidence that it comes from sumai, the (Japanese) forerunner of sumo.

But what's more is... who the **** cares? It's been Japanese for a thousand years. And it's evolved a lot, as should kung fu. If you're practising traditional kung fu for fighting and your style hasn't changed in a thousand years chances are what you're practising is not going to be so useful against someone who's practising a well-rounded mix of styles. If you just want it for self defence against 'the untrained, unarmed thug' who also happens to be an incompetant moron you may be ok but I wouldn't stake my life on it!


Or how about mu tai, you guessed it kung fu.No, Muay Thai comes from Thailand. Or at least there's zero evidence and not many people suggesting otherwise.


How about karate yup from okinawa taught to the peasants by a monk from shaolin.Bing-bong! Congratulations! One out of four! No evidence about the monk though, AND plenty of evidence to suggest that Okinawans had their own fighting arts before which would have been mixed with it, but nice try.


Wresteling well being 100% greek I wana say greece but some people will argue it came from india but inevitably it ended up at shaolin and then was perfected even further.Wrestling comes from everywhere.

There are cave paintings and stone carving from all over prehistory with pictures of people fighting... wrestling, striking whatever... All ancient cultures had something, and since you're at it Shaolin was a Buddhist temple, and Buddhism itself comes from India.

Most styles merged with others, stole from others, took over others, it's human nature, and esp the nature of fighting... the ancient Chiense stories are full of such examples... what the hell does this ahve to do with anything?
Sure kungfu [i]was[/s] mixed MA, but if it doesn't adapt to the new, it's gonna lose. Full stop.

I don't believe I7m even wasting my time on this fantasy bollocks.


It just doesn't make sense to volentarily go to the ground ...Nobody ever advocates this. Except kung fu people who know nothing about jujutsu trying to do it down.


Wresteling or jiu jitsu works only between gentleman in an arena with rules.Bull. Jujutsu like kung fu was developed as a battlefield art.


The very meaning of jiu jitu is the gentle mens art. It's all about subduewing an apponent without hurting him.Ignorance.

[SimonM]

If you're practising traditional kung fu for fighting and your style hasn't changed in a thousand years chances are what you're practising is not going to be so useful against someone who's practising a well-rounded mix of styles.


Um Mat, may be preaching to the choir on this but nobody is practicing a style of Gong Fu that hasn't changed in 1000 years. Nobody.

My Sifu in Canada trained in Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Hei Long Wushu, a couple different types of Taiji and good old western boxing. Think there was no blending? NBDMA is a really good school but it's not the only good Gong Fu school there are many others out there.

Now there may be people who practice styles that haven't changed in 100 years and that is problematic. There are other people who practice styles that have changed - for the worse - in the last 35-40 years.

And there are plenty of people who come from TCMA kwoons that realize that evolution and improvement of the art are a part of the tradition of Gong Fu. We don't have to worship at the altar of choke-meister-royce to do this either.


Wrestling comes from everywhere.

This is true. In my case most of the wrestling I have learned has origins either in Hei Long (which in turn drew from Mongolian sources) or from folk wrestling (largly of British derivation if I am not off my guess).



There are cave paintings and stone carving from all over prehistory with pictures of people fighting... wrestling, striking whatever... All ancient cultures had something, and since you're at it Shaolin was a Buddhist temple, and Buddhism itself comes from India.


Ok, hold it right here, full stop for a sec. We all know that Shaolin was NOT the birthplace of CMA right folks? Ok, good, I don't want this to descend into another "Gong Fu came from india thread", those ones make my knuckles itch. ;)



Most styles merged with others, stole from others, took over others, it's human nature, and esp the nature of fighting... the ancient Chiense stories are full of such examples... what the hell does this ahve to do with anything?
Sure kungfu [i]was[/s] mixed MA, but if it doesn't adapt to the new, it's gonna lose.

Adapt yes. But that does not mean burning our frog-button jackets and denying that CMA has merit. There is just as much merit in well-trained CMA as in any other martial art. It's just that we have a larger number of people in CMA who want to preserve their art like it's some sort of museum relic than in a few other arts. We have to come to the realization that the great innovators of CMA were precisely that - innovators. From Wong Fei Hong to the much debated Chan Tai San these were people who studied different styles, who fought to develop improvements to their styles ans who were not content to be curators of a cultural relic. This is a fundamental tradition of Gong Fu.



Nobody ever advocates this. Except kung fu people who know nothing about jujutsu trying to do it down.


And the JJ guys have done their fair share of smack talking about Gong Fu. Much of which was also undeserved.

[Mr Punch]

Who ****ed in your cornflakes today?! :D


Um Mat, may be preaching to the choir on this but nobody is practicing a style of Gong Fu that hasn't changed in 1000 years. Nobody.Ahm a-singin!
Some people think they are!


And there are plenty of people who come from TCMA kwoons that realize that evolution and improvement of the art are a part of the tradition of Gong Fu. We don't have to worship at the altar of choke-meister-royce to do this either.Yep.


This is true. Of course!


...from folk wrestling (largly of British derivation if I am not off my guess).Maybe. There's a helluva a lot of wrestling from all over Europe. Britain seemed particularly rich in this tradition... prob cos we had folks from all over Europe.


Ok, hold it right here, full stop for a sec. We all know that Shaolin was NOT the birthplace of CMA right folks? Ok, good, I don't want this to descend into another "Gong Fu came from india thread", those ones make my knuckles itch. ;)Sure, but I was addressing somebody else's bollocks! Don't shoot the messenger!


...and denying that CMA has merit... There is just as much merit in well-trained CMA as in any other martial art. Ahm a-still singin!


It's just that we have a larger number of people in CMA who want to preserve their art like it's some sort of museum relic than in a few other arts. Which is ok for those who want to practise something traditional... like ikebana, or making corn dollies. Not for practising fighting skills.


This is a fundamental tradition of Gong Fu.Yep. That's where Green Cloud and I actually agreed.


And the JJ guys have done their fair share of smack talking about Gong Fu. Much of which was also undeserved.Er... so what!? I also do my best to take them to task when I see it. This time, I wasn't talking about them!

[ChinoXL]

wow unkokusai; another low blow.. you know what you have e-thug award no point in shyt talkin over the internet. And seriously when somebody hold you by the balls you don't want to fight anymore you freakin retard. Oh well I'mma stop feedin the troll.

[SimonM]

Who ****ed in your cornflakes today?! :D


Didn't realize it came off grumpy. But then:

1: I have a cough which is annoying me.
2: I got a new girlfriend but she up and left to Datong and won't be back until the day before her birthday....
3: When I wrote that post I had just finished a weights workout and was a little sore.
4: I made the mistake of reading Bullshido recently and that ALWAYS puts me a bit on the offensive. I don't know why I ever type that URL in, I really don't.


Anyways sorry if it came off grouchy. :eek:

[SevenStar]

okay even when the guy is on his back it is easy for him to get to your eyes especially if they apply the guard.. if you want to get technical fine. I did a double leg take down and I was in a kung-fu guys guard (my good friend in mantis school) .. you kno what he did? he tore my flesh from the inner thigh.. and IT HURTS~!!! i jumped up.. and that second i did he got out.. and it's weird it's like suprise pain.. have someone squeeze a little peice of your inner thigh as hard as they can.. remember a little peice :rolleyes: BUT i've strayed from point.. it is easy for ppl to dig fingers in your eye.. especially with adrennaline..

a few things here. One, YOU lost because your mind was weaker... Pain compliance is never the answer. Biting, scratching, gouging... these are all the "surprise pain" you are talking about. They aren't fight enders unless you let them be.

next, if you were in his guard and he reached your eyes - and was able gouge them before you could do ANYTHING, then there are holes in your guard passing game. being based properly - sitting up, back straight, weight going backward, his arms shouldn't even be long enough to reach your face. From there, pick the way you pass. If you fell into his guard, you control his arms via the armpits until you are able to sit back. Keep your head buried in his chest. Either way, you did something wrong somewhere...

[SevenStar]

will someone come control the little retarded kid? he want's to play with the big kids, but he's going to get hurt.

anyways grappling is fine and nice to have in your arsenal, but you have to be a ufc fighter to beat a tough ass street fighter who has nothing to lose. your average everyday martial artist does not train with such intensity.

very untrue. We make our guys train as if they have a fight coming up. Why? because ALL of the teachers compete in something, and many of the students do as well. We don't cater to the ones who don't.


when it comes to the waist and hips and such, choy lee fut is a great way to go.

grappling is a nice supplement, don't get me wrong. but my gung fu system has a lot of good things in it.

peace.


nobody said your kung fu doesn't have good things. My longfist and jun fan had good things in it. But at the same time, it didn't prepare me for what happened when I was taken to the ground.

[ChinoXL]

sevenstar.. when i mounted him.. he grabbed my balls i was saying the tear suprise meh and got me to an advantage.. and i'm saying what ended the match was him grabbing me by my balls literally..

[Green Cloud]

Ok boys and girls get the popcorn. The first recorded olympic wrestling match occured in the Olympics in 708 B.C. this is a fact not something that monkeys wrote on walls.

Greek customs and Ideas reached India were Jiu jistu's foundation was likely to have been born during Alexander the Great's conquest (356-323 B.C.). Greek culture was brought to areas that Alexander conqured.

His conquest streched all the way to India, and many say that greek influence in India led to the development of kung fu (wu shu).

The general Idea was embraced by most historians is that systemized Martial arts tech. came from India along with Buddhism.

The concept hre is that is that the Siu Lum temple was built in the center of China and this is where Bhodi Dharma introduced Buddism and Boxing (Senzuikyo) ( reference Akido and Chinese MA )

The story supports the idea That Jiu jitsu coming from china takes place around the time of the fall of the Ming Dynasty. It states that a man named Chingempin came from Japan to live in Tokyo at the Buddist temple where he met the three Ronnin ( Masterless Samurai) named Fukuno, Isogaya and Miura.

Chingempin told the Ronin of a grappling art he had seen in China. The Ronin beacme partcularly interestwed in pursuing this art, so then began the teaching in Japan and this was called Jiu Jitsu.

[FatherDog]

1) Kung fu, when trained properly, can be a good striking system.

2) Kung fu styles are not grappling systems.

3) Unless you train a grappling system, the first time you get tackled by someone who does, or who happens to be larger and stronger than you, you are ****ed, and eye-gouging and flesh pinching will not save you unless your opponent is tremendously incompetent.

To summarize - Good kung fu is worth training in. But if you're not training in grappling too, there are holes in your game, and TEH DEADLY EYE GOUGE is not going to fill those holes.

There's a hole in most MMA-trained person's games, too - most MMA gyms don't address weapon range. The difference is that if you ask most MMA players what happens if a weapon enters the fray, the response is "I'll run like ****", whereas if you ask most kung fu players what happens if grappling enters the picture you get responses that belong in the realm of the ridiculous.

[Green Cloud]

Ok boys and girls get the popcorn. The first recorded olympic wrestling match occured in the Olympics in 708 B.C. this is a fact not something that monkeys wrote on walls.

Greek customs and Ideas reached India were Jiu jistu's foundation was likely to have been born during Alexander the Great's conquest (356-323 B.C.). Greek culture was brought to areas that Alexander conqured.

His conquest streched all the way to India, and many say that greek influence in India led to the development of kung fu (wu shu).

The general Idea was embraced by most historians is that systemized Martial arts tech. came from India along with Buddhism.

The concept hre is that is that the Siu Lum temple was built in the center of China and this is where Bhodi Dharma introduced Buddism and Boxing (Senzuikyo) ( reference Akido and Chinese MA )

The story supports the idea That Jiu jitsu coming from china takes place around the time of the fall of the Ming Dynasty. It states that a man named Chingempin came from Japan to live in Tokyo at the Buddist temple where he met the three Ronnin ( Masterless Samurai) named Fukuno, Isogaya and Miura.

Chingempin told the Ronin of a grappling art he had seen in China. The Ronin beacme partcularly interestwed in pursuing this art, so then began the teaching in Japan and this was called Jiu Jitsu.


I hope all you Jiu-jitsu and wrestin enthusiast are paying attention espesialy Mat and Uno****usai.

Now please be quiet while I school you boys.

The next theory is that there were many forms of wrestling that had developedvin China one of the most notable is Horn wrestling called Jiao Dixi.

this form was practiced by the Mongolians, and later evolved into Jia Li wrestling without the horns. this form of wrestling can ce seenin native american cultures.

Most likely arrived by the migrating Mongolians through now modern Alaska. Jiali evolved and beacme xiangpu and is said that this form of wrestling became Sumo in Japan.

in short wresteling did exist in China and Mongolia before jiu jitsu did in Japan.

Mat are you paying attention???

[SevenStar]

Unkokusai, you have many valid points and I do understand some of the points that you are making. I have a question for you, where do you think jiu jitsu came from?? I'l anwere that for you it came from kung fu. Or how about mu tai, you guessed it kung fu. How about karate yup from okinawa taught to the peasants by a monk from shaolin. Wresteling well being 100% greek I wana say greece but some people will argue it came from india but inevitably it ended up at shaolin and then was perfected even further.

hold the phone. I CHALLENGE you to show me DEFINITIVE evidence that jiu jistu came from china... you CAN'T. you can only find speculations. Why? because nobody really knows. jiu jitsu came from judo, which came from jujutsu. the history of jujutsu is VERY unclear. the japanese say that it was entirely a japanese creation. the chinese say it was brought to japan via a kempo guy named chen gimpin. NOBODY knows for sure.

the history of muay thai is equally muddy. speculation is that it came from either cambodia or burma, especially considering the similarities between thai and burmese arts. the original inhabitants were indeed immigrants from southern china, but if those people developed the art on their own independently of kung fu, then it is NOT a chinese style. Some people try to draw a crazy line connecting muay thai to wing chun, but AFAIK, this cannot be validated either.

How in the world do you think the chinese perfected wrestling? Define 'perfected'


My point Unkokusai is that kung fu is mixed martial arts wich makes this conversation pointless. I started out a devoted follower of jiu jitsu, but found the style was limmited.

by today's standard, kung fu is not mma. the term mma denotes striking and ground grappling. The latter eliminates like 90% of kung fu schools from this definition.


Once I learned Kung Fu became a good striker and didn't have to go to the ground every time someone attacked me made my life easier. I hate going to the ground it sucks you get all skuffed up cut and sustain more damage from the pavement grading the skin off your back.

1. attend a bjj self defense seminar... it revolves around stand up grappling.
2. not all altercations happen on pavement.
3. not all altercations involve multiple attackers.
4. sometimes it is preferable to go to the ground.


It just doesn't make sense to volentarily go to the ground especialy when in most fights youre being attacked by several people, and while you are in the mounted position humping your oponent youre getting stabbed.

On the other hand, when the guy is a better striker than you and you are getting your arse kicked standing, take him down and finish him quickly. don't hump him until the two of you are alone, since you seem to be into that sort of thing.


Wresteling or jiu jitsu works only between gentleman in an arena with rules. The very meaning of jiu jitu is the gentle mens art. It's all about subduewing an apponent without hurting him.

ROFLMAO. I have a second job as a bouncer. we aren't allowed to strike. I use bjj and judo every d@mn night. what do you mean it only works between gentlemen? you sound like a moron... that's like saying kung fu only works if I let you work your techniques on me. The reason it's "gentle" is because of the means I use to throw you around... It's not like sumo or shuai chiao where you crash into the person to get them off balance. It's more like taiji - you use his balance and momentum against him to create the off balancing. But if you watch competition it's not gentle at all. that was merely the ideal behind it.


excuse my spelling it's late. In short I think we should familiarize ourselves in different systems of martial arts so we can figure out how to defeat them with our own system.

and while you reinvent the wheel, everyone else is ahead of the power curve.


I love my style and am intregued by other styles. It suits me, but fight me not my style, because if I loose it's not my system that failed me but simply that I failed.

if you get taken down and pounded or get a limb broken, it's not only your fault, but the fault of your system for not adequately addressing these things.

[Green Cloud]

Mat I often find that most grapplers are not my intelectual equals.

How can you make that statement. Do your research.

Have you ever heard of sjia jow( mongolian wrestling,Judo) or Chi na( kaam na) or dog boxing or monkey boxing ( hou Kune) dei tong( ground cruelty or from the ground up. Or how about Bat gwua. All grapling arts in kung fu. How about Kung fu's modern sport San da( san shou).

I don't even know what you so called grapplers are doing on this forum. Why don't you guys put up or shut up. There are plenty of amature San Da events that you guys can enter.

Just ask dave Ross he will point you guys in the right direction. Oh yea you get to weare boxing gloves, so no need to worry about finger gouging or having you testies tetached from your body.

[MasterKiller]

this form was practiced by the Mongolians, and later evolved into Jia Li wrestling without the horns. this form of wrestling can ce seenin native american cultures.

Most likely arrived by the migrating Mongolians through now modern Alaska. Jiali evolved and beacme xiangpu and is said that this form of wrestling became Sumo in Japan.


???...The ancestors of Native Americans crossed the Berring Straight approx. 12,000 years ago.

[SevenStar]

I hope all you Jiu-jitsu and wrestin enthusiast are paying attention espesialy Mat and Uno****usai.

Now please be quiet while I school you boys.

The next theory is that there were many forms of wrestling that had developedvin China one of the most notable is Horn wrestling called Jiao Dixi.

this form was practiced by the Mongolians, and later evolved into Jia Li wrestling without the horns. this form of wrestling can ce seenin native american cultures.

Jiali evolved and beacme xiangpu and is said that this form of wrestling became Sumo in Japan.

in short wresteling did exist in China and Mongolia before jiu jitsu did in Japan.

Mat are you paying attention???

On this, you are correct. shuai chiao influenced sumo. however, jujutsu did not come from sumo... it was it's own creation with no outside influence. you really aren't schooling anyone.

[Green Cloud]

It's a very well known fact that the emigrated from the south of China. Later became famous due to the efforts of King Nareasau in 1560 A.D. Do your reasearch mat before you jump in and try to correct me.

[SevenStar]

Chingempin told the Ronin of a grappling art he had seen in China. The Ronin beacme partcularly interestwed in pursuing this art, so then began the teaching in Japan and this was called Jiu Jitsu.


that is another of several stories. Another is that gempin learned three techniques and taught one techiques to three different japanese physicians. These three went on to create the first three systems of jujutsu. so many stories, so little evidnce. You still have yet to prove anything... and you won't.

[Green Cloud]

It's a very well known fact that the emigrated from the south of China. Later became famous due to the efforts of King Nareasau in 1560 A.D. Do your reasearch mat before you jump in and try to correct me.

[SevenStar]

It's a very well known fact that the emigrated from the south of China. Later became famous due to the efforts of King Nareasau in 1560 A.D. Do your reasearch mat before you jump in and try to correct me.


perhaps you should learn to read. I never said there was speculation about whether or not the people immigrated from south china. even you should know that. speculation is where the art developed. As to be expected, the thais will say thailand. others say burma. either way, it developed independently of china. Not only that, but it's rep as a fighting style has surpassed that of china's, which is now a joke to most.

[Green Cloud]

Mat listen up in the 16th century it is a well known fact that shaolin boxing and found its way to Okinawa from China. Oh by the way did I tell you I also hold a black belt in Go Ju Ryu. Anyhoo I don't feel the need to expand on this topic since you can ask any karate practitioner about it.

[Green Cloud]

Seven star Who are you?? I wasn't even talking to you I was replying to Mats statement. Anyway read a book or an encyclopedia that's where I got most of my info.

Oh yea whe speaking to me don't use words like challenge since I spent the last couple of pages giving you stats based on facts.

Once again who are you, I love it when boys that Hide behind a computer screen with no real info or web site or contact info talk all big and bad.

As far as this conversation is concerned it's over I only want to debate with individuals that have some kind of credentials no you BOY!

Go back a few post and read your statements arent even relevent to this thread.

It's funny though how I'm probably the only kung fu guy on this thread wasting my time with a bunch of graplers.

[SevenStar]

Seven star Who are you?? I wasn't even talking to you I was replying to Mats statement. Anyway read a book or an encyclopedia that's where I got most of my info.

doesn't matter who you addressed, you are still talking out of the same part of your anatomy...


Oh yea whe speaking to me don't use words like challenge since I spent the last couple of pages giving you stats based on facts.

no you haven't. the gempin story is NOT fact by any means.


Once again who are you, I love it when boys that Hide behind a computer screen with no real info or web site or contact info talk all big and bad.

I don't hide anywhere... www.memphisbjj.com - that's where I train and teach. When you're in the area, I'd love for you to check us out.


It's funny though how I'm probably the only kung fu guy on this thread wasting my time with a bunch of graplers.

mat, myself and others have indeed had cma training, not that it matters. In the meantime, have fun wasting your time, you'll probably learn something.

[lkfmdc]

One day Adam was looking at Eve...

She was looking pretty good, so he jumped on top!!!! She wrapped her legs around him and thus the guard was created!!!!!

All jujitsu comes from the Garden of Eden, deal with it! It's a fact!

[Green Cloud]

Nice web site, Makes me want to go and update my web site Greencloud.net, I still don't think you went back enoughf in the threads. I was giving mat a disatation on the chinese martial arts, since he tried to correct my statements. I thought I would add accurate insite on the history of these various Martial arts.

Anyway I don't realy see my self going to Menphis tenn. anytime soon. But the same goes for you if ever in New York. There is plenty to see there, but I'm still curious about why you kung fu hatin guys with a one sided view are on this site since it's a kung fu forum. Oh yea please don't tell me that your one of these guys that think Jiu Jitsu came from Brazil.

actually I think I was in Tenn. once not much to see realy and I'm, not into country western.

[Green Cloud]

Ok dave you can haddle it from here I got to get back on the Mat. I've wasted all aftrenoon with these guys and I'm not getting anyware. Can you say sooo weee

[Knifefighter]

Oh yea please don't tell me that your one of these guys that think Jiu Jitsu came from Brazil.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu DID come from Brazil.

[lkfmdc]

Japanese Jujitsu came from Japan
Brazilian Jujitsu came from Brazil
Lithuanian Jujitsu came from Lithuania
Mexican Junjistsu cam from Mexico

Maybe there's a trend here :rolleyes:

[Green Cloud]

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu DID come from Brazil.


Can you read:confused:

[SevenStar]

Anyway I don't realy see my self going to Menphis tenn. anytime soon. But the same goes for you if ever in New York. There is plenty to see there, but I'm still curious about why you kung fu hatin guys with a one sided view are on this site since it's a kung fu forum. Oh yea please don't tell me that your one of these guys that think Jiu Jitsu came from Brazil.

actually I think I was in Tenn. once not much to see realy and I'm, not into country western.


LOL, I grew up in va beach. I had the same country western view of memphis before I moved here... it's the complete opposite.

We're on KFM cuz it's a cool forum. I was actually training CMA when I first joined, then went back to mma stuff.

[Merryprankster]

As long as people have been people, there has been fighting. This would include grappling and striking. There are indigenous styles all over the world. There is such a thing as "convergent evolution." The wheel didn't develop in one place then get passed to other places progressively. Similarly, since humans all function the same (one head, two arms, two legs), it stands to reason that sound fighting is based on sound principles, and those principles are universal. There is nothing special and unique about any fighting style - somebody, somewhere has/had something identical, similar, or analogous.

Ancient Sumerian texts discuss wrestling and grappling. The Sumerians are at least the contemporaries of the ancient civilizations in China and may predate them. The Indus valley civilization is the oldest known, and many practitioners of an Indian art, Kalari Payatt, insist the art is older than anything in China.

The point is that these things aren't linear. They ran in parallel. The Fijian natives, the Samoans, and the Maori all have indigenous fighting styles. You can find if you look, I am certain, fighting techniques and approaches in each that undoubtedly look like something from other arts and styles.

The Cornish have a jacket wrestling style. Judo is a jacket wrestling style. Using linear development, one must have come from the other. But we know that is not true. Sumo is a belt wrestling style. Glima is a belt wrestling style. They are totally unrelated except that they fall under the "grappling" umbrella.

Besides, even when things are linear, cultures have this wierd way of influencing each other; swapping bits of information and changing both parent and child.

Perfection/perfecting is a matter of intent. Perfect for what? I had a guy ask me once what was better, judo or bjj? I was there to say hey to a judo class because I knew a bunch of the people.

I asked "for what?"

For the record, grappling does not only work "between gentlemen." Stories abound of Judoka successfully dealing with street encounters, and in Brazil, BJJers do often wind up in streetfights, doing just fine.

Finally, re: sources/sourcing. History is not one of MA's long suits. Few people truly study it, and those that do must deal with all the myths that surround the subject. Documentation is light, and separating fact and fiction in the face of historical animosities, ethnic discrimination, word-of-mouth transmission, and other factors, can be a real headache.

Heck, look at the Bruce Lee - Wong Jack Man thing. Nobody seems to be able to figure out what really went down there, and that was just a couple of decades ago!

[Yum Cha]

Seeing that we have such a wealth of knowledge and experience from the Grappling community, perhaps you guys, whom are no doubt great fighters in your own right, could tell us TCMA guys, what it is about strikers that causes you trouble?

You guys are always ready to say how effective the grapplers arts are, but are you too myopic or insecure to discuss its weaknesses?

For Example, I've found grapplers are a bit hesitant against a stance like a deep boxer's i.e. the Kimbo Slice film. Not confounded, but it doesn't fit into their expectations. The high fake, low shoot "bread and butter" is more difficult. Granted, I've not played with the best, just a few...and with all things martial, you fight the man, not the style. Educate me.

I have yet to meet anybody that can hold out against a nut squeeze. it starts an involuntary reaction that is the opening, if not the closing. Of course, perhaps Gene is moving beyond that point now, but I can't say for sure.

As always, sissors beats paper, paper beats rock and rock beats sissors ad nausium. There is no art that has no weaknesses, as there is no man that is unbeatable. Well, perhaps one...at least on that day, and I guarantee IT AIN'T YOU!

[unkokusai]

No need any fancy boxing skill. All you need is this (http://www.martialartsmart.net/prjt001.html). Money back gurantee and it truely works.


Don't you have some comic books to read?

[unkokusai]

Mat I often find that most grapplers are not my intelectual equals.
.


LOL! I believe that.

It would take a doorknob or some rotten fruit to be your equal! :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

Greek customs and Ideas reached India were Jiu jistu's foundation was likely to have been born during Alexander the Great's conquest (356-323 B.C.). Greek culture was brought to areas that Alexander conqured.

His conquest streched all the way to India, and many say that greek influence in India led to the development of kung fu (wu shu).

The general Idea was embraced by most historians is that systemized Martial arts tech. came from India along with Buddhism.

The concept hre is that is that the Siu Lum temple was built in the center of China and this is where Bhodi Dharma introduced Buddism and Boxing (Senzuikyo) ( reference Akido and Chinese MA )

The story supports the idea That Jiu jitsu coming from china takes place around the time of the fall of the Ming Dynasty. It states that a man named Chingempin came from Japan to live in Tokyo at the Buddist temple where he met the three Ronnin ( Masterless Samurai) named Fukuno, Isogaya and Miura.

Chingempin told the Ronin of a grappling art he had seen in China. The Ronin beacme partcularly interestwed in pursuing this art, so then began the teaching in Japan and this was called Jiu Jitsu.


Gee, thanks professor :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

I hope all you Jiu-jitsu and wrestin enthusiast are paying attention espesialy Mat and Uno****usai.

Now please be quiet while I school you boys.


Seriously. You are embarrassing yourself.

[Knifefighter]

Seeing that we have such a wealth of knowledge and experience from the Grappling community, perhaps you guys, whom are no doubt great fighters in your own right, could tell us TCMA guys, what it is about strikers that causes you trouble?
Someone with fast, powerful strikes who can strike while moving in a back/lateral motion and can throw knees as you are coming in.



I have yet to meet anybody that can hold out against a nut squeeze.
True, but the person experienced in grappling positions will usually be the person who pulls this move off.



As always, sissors beats paper, paper beats rock and rock beats sissors ad nausium. There is no art that has no weaknesses, as there is no man that is unbeatable.
That's the reason for training both striking and grappling.

[Green Cloud]

Seriously. You are embarrassing yourself.


Unkokusai, all you have is one liners is that because you are scared you might embar-ass your self. You haven't had anything but stupid one liners to add. Are you retarted??? Is that why 7 star had to jump in and speak for you. Because your so stupid.

I have tried to make my point like a gentleman throughout this thread. I haven't insulted anyone. I have been clear and consise and have provided accurate data, wich by the way isn't writen on scroles or cave walls.

all my data is collected from encyclopedias. Get riff read a book be cool stay in school.

Maybee I should just say what ever is the popular thing to say so I can make you feel better. So one of the moderators like seven star don't kick me off.

Is this forum being moderated in Russia or something??

I was trying to adress some of the Issues that that guy tuna fish started. But he was kicked off. Hmm makes me wonder, Is it bad to gang bang or to childishly dispute whith out providing evidence.

You know what kills me??? It's the lack of respect for a reputable Sifu like me, Know I know why Doc fei wong stopped bothering with this forum.

[SimonM]

Someone with fast, powerful strikes who can strike while moving in a back/lateral motion and can throw knees as you are coming in.



As long as the knees have a decent snap to them. Leave a knee up there and you might as well just say "single leg me please".

[Green Cloud]

As long as people have been people, there has been fighting. This would include grappling and striking. There are indigenous styles all over the world. There is such a thing as "convergent evolution." The wheel didn't develop in one place then get passed to other places progressively. Similarly, since humans all function the same (one head, two arms, two legs), it stands to reason that sound fighting is based on sound principles, and those principles are universal. There is nothing special and unique about any fighting style - somebody, somewhere has/had something identical, similar, or analogous.

Ancient Sumerian texts discuss wrestling and grappling. The Sumerians are at least the contemporaries of the ancient civilizations in China and may predate them. The Indus valley civilization is the oldest known, and many practitioners of an Indian art, Kalari Payatt, insist the art is older than anything in China.

The point is that these things aren't linear. They ran in parallel. The Fijian natives, the Samoans, and the Maori all have indigenous fighting styles. You can find if you look, I am certain, fighting techniques and approaches in each that undoubtedly look like something from other arts and styles.

The Cornish have a jacket wrestling style. Judo is a jacket wrestling style. Using linear development, one must have come from the other. But we know that is not true. Sumo is a belt wrestling style. Glima is a belt wrestling style. They are totally unrelated except that they fall under the "grappling" umbrella.

Besides, even when things are linear, cultures have this wierd way of influencing each other; swapping bits of information and changing both parent and child.

Perfection/perfecting is a matter of intent. Perfect for what? I had a guy ask me once what was better, judo or bjj? I was there to say hey to a judo class because I knew a bunch of the people.

I asked "for what?"

For the record, grappling does not only work "between gentlemen." Stories abound of Judoka successfully dealing with street encounters, and in Brazil, BJJers do often wind up in streetfights, doing just fine.

Finally, re: sources/sourcing. History is not one of MA's long suits. Few people truly study it, and those that do must deal with all the myths that surround the subject. Documentation is light, and separating fact and fiction in the face of historical animosities, ethnic discrimination, word-of-mouth transmission, and other factors, can be a real headache.

Heck, look at the Bruce Lee - Wong Jack Man thing. Nobody seems to be able to figure out what really went down there, and that was just a couple of decades ago!

Merryprankster, Give me a break and give me some time lines and evidence. My Info was gathered by reputable sources. Read some books that Dave Cater wrote ( editor of IKF). I don't care about samoans runing around doing wrestling or cave men humping each other. I offered real historical facts. Documented evidence of systems Like the Olympic games in Greece.

[Green Cloud]

Not sure what unkokusai is going to say, but I'm sure it will be a one liner.

[Yum Cha]

Thanks Knifefighter,
Do you feel a vulnerablility on the sides of the neck, or trapezius (sp) when shooting in, to say a forearm attack or downward crashing strikes, perhaps combined with a sprawl....?

I think as a striker it has to be an either or option, move laterally or evade, or go in for a solid knee up or spine/neck down attack.

Also, I've noticed a tendency for grapplers to try and tie up the arms in stand-up with "sticky" attacks, or to go high with strikes, sometimes feints, before going down for the shoot. It appears that they open their lower abdomen and legs to attack (teep or uppercut) when they go high, before the drop and shoot, ever get caught there, or is it just too small a window?




Originally Posted by Yum Cha

""Seeing that we have such a wealth of knowledge and experience from the Grappling community, perhaps you guys, whom are no doubt great fighters in your own right, could tell us TCMA guys, what it is about strikers that causes you trouble?""

Reply by Kinifefighter

"Someone with fast, powerful strikes who can strike while moving in a back/lateral motion and can throw knees as you are coming in."

[Yum Cha]

CMA is about "problem solving" and "spikes ring" is just happen to be a good solution for the "ground fight".

Illegal to wear a "spikes ring"? I don't know such law exist. Besides, who is talking about "sport" here?

A chinese "friend" of mine once went the Tyson on the ear of a mongolian wrestler during a prize fight in northern china. It broke the hold, and he took him out.

After everybody put away the guns and the sensible discussion commensed as to if he had fairly won the purse, they accepted his arguement and paid him.

"Everything is Kung Fu"

****, I just love that story....

[unkokusai]

People trained

- gun shooting,
- knife fight,
- stick fight,
- fight with bricks in hands,
- rocks dodging.

CMA guy not only train how to fight with bare hands but also train how to fight with weapons (single edge knife, double edges sword, spear, Kun Dao, steel chain, ...). Spikes ring is just one of those weapons and it happened to be so effective to use against "ground fight".

When talking about "ground fight", one cannot avoid talking about "spikes ring". People demo "defense against knife", "defense against gun". Have anyone seen any demo about "defense against spikes ring" in the "ground fight"? Why?

CMA is about "problem solving" and "spikes ring" is just happen to be a good solution for the "ground fight".

Illegal to wear a "spikes ring"? Not sure such law exist. Besides, who is talking about "sport" here? We are talking about "What truely works? what doesnt?"

Ok, Green Lantern. Best of luck to you and your magic ring:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

I have been clear and consise and have provided accurate data, . .

Gimme a break. You have provided "accurate" scientific data like:

"was likely to have been"

"many say"

"The general Idea was embraced"

"The concept hre is"

"The story supports the idea"


Sorry if I can't take you as seriously as you do, professor. :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

You know what kills me??? It's the lack of respect for a reputable Sifu like me, .


LOL!

Is anyone who says "a reputable Sifu like me" likely to be "a reputable Sifu"? I guess not.

[Mr Punch]

Mat didn't say anythinjg of the sort!

Mat I often find that most grapplers are not my intelectual equals.

How can you make that statement. Do your research.I didn't say that at all. Read my post before YOU start talking about research. My arse is your intellectual equal.
Apart from which I did kungfu for about ten years before I started MMA... are you saying my intellect dropped when I started MMA? In which case it may be near yours now.


I don't even know what you so called grapplers are doing on this forum. Wing chun kung fu, nine years. Most days. MMA two years, once/twice a week if I'm lucky. I don't know where morons with BLIND prejudice incapable of holding civil discussion are doing on this forum.


...or having you testies tetached from your body.The last time a (mantis) fighter reached for my nuts, I elbowed him down his face with a chum jarn (a kung fu technique) and swept him with a lap sao (a kung fu tech) and a stamping kick (a kungfu tech). And anyway, do you have an argument?

[Mr Punch]

The first recorded olympic wrestling match occured in the Olympics in 708 B.C. That would be reek wrestling then. Well done. Of course it's a well-known that NOBODY wrestled each other or grappled in any way before the Greeks thought of it. :rolleyes:


The story supports the idea That Jiu jitsu coming from china takes place around the time of the fall of the Ming Dynasty. It states that a man named Chingempin came from Japan to live in Tokyo at the Buddist temple where he met the three Ronnin ( Masterless Samurai) named Fukuno, Isogaya and Miura.The story (you made up) supports the idea (you made up). Now there's a surprise!

The Ming Dynasty ended in when 1640 something?

In the Kojiki written in 712, from stories passed down orally in the Yamato dialect (which died out in the 8th century BC), there are stories of wrestling techs, and other unarmed schools and matches and battles. Are you suggesting that in some way the native fighting arts of Japan that were in existance since the same time as the Olympic wrestling you mentioned had no influence on the origin of jujutsu? I have read a modern Japanese translation of the old Japanese Kojiki with my own eyes, how woiuld you like that refernced? And which encyclopediae EXACTLY did you get your information from? Because I can pretty much guarantee that the historians who wrote that would have been using the same kind of source material I've read.

There are other pictures and stories (in the Nihonshiki) of sumai from the Nara Period (ending 794 AD - when are you saying these arts came to Japan? End of the Ming Dynasty was it? Keep smoking). Now at this time, you have to remember that the Japanese based their capital city of Nara on the Tang capital in China. They LOVED the Chinese! They decided at the same time to adopt Chinese writing and everything else Chinese. Don't you think they'd have somehow thought to mention if their fighting came from China?

I could go on... but you wouldn't listen which I suspect is why wise men like Unkokusai stick to one-liners.

So I'll just add that the word koryu (which means old-style) jujutsu was already used in the Muromachi Period (13hundred summat - 157-odd - look it up).

When did Chingimping come to Japan?

[SimonM]

A chinese "friend" of mine once went the Tyson on the ear of a mongolian wrestler during a prize fight in northern china. It broke the hold, and he took him out.

After everybody put away the guns and the sensible discussion commensed as to if he had fairly won the purse, they accepted his arguement and paid him.

"Everything is Kung Fu"

****, I just love that story....

I think your Chinese friend may be embellishing somewhat. Guns are bloody rare in northern China. REALLY bloody rare. Like soldiers and swats and that is it.

People who are packing carry knives or (sometimes) chucks not guns.

[paradoxbox]

I could go on... but you wouldn't listen which I suspect is why wise men like Unkokusai stick to one-liners.

So I'll just add that the word koryu (which means old-style) jujutsu was already used in the Muromachi Period (13hundred summat - 157-odd - look it up).

When did Chingimping come to Japan?

It's fair to say that in some way, most Japanese martial arts at some point passed through China or Korea. However in most cases for all the Japanese arts still known to exist now, they have been seperated from any Chinese influence for a very long time. For example gyokko ryuu kosshijutsu, or shinden fudou ryuu jutaijutsu are both thought to have come directly from China at some point between 1000 and 700 years ago. If you look at parts of these ryu they do bear a resemblance to some styles of Chinese fighting. However they are definately not Chinese.

And FWIW the term koryu as an official definition as a type of martial art only came into being in the mid-late 1800's. Back in the day, like for example 1520, everything was just bujutsu.

The story of jujutsu coming to Japan via China in the 1600's is totally wrong. It may have happened for a few specific ryu. But it's absolutely not the source of Japanese jujutsu. Jujutsu as we know it today has been practiced in Japan for more than 1500 years.

Some information I have read regarding Amatsu Tatara and Shinden Tatara leads me to believe that India played possibly the most important part in bringing martial arts to the far east. It would seem very likely that many martial art techniques did originate in Greece and Rome and eventually made their way eastward. Of course, nothing is proveable, however, there is more than 1 written occurance of people from foreign lands arriving in Japan by ship and teaching fighting methods. It's reported that thousands of years ago a man from Babylon once arrived in Japan and was made a very high ranking official, and taught many secrets including martial arts and strategy. Of course it can't be proven but I think that if you follow the trail of explorers through history it's very likely that many martial arts migrated from Greece, through India into Mongolia, China and Korea.

[SimonM]

Some information I have read regarding Amatsu Tatara and Shinden Tatara leads me to believe that India played possibly the most important part in bringing martial arts to the far east. It would seem very likely that many martial art techniques did originate in Greece and Rome and eventually made their way eastward. Of course, nothing is proveable, however, there is more than 1 written occurance of people from foreign lands arriving in Japan by ship and teaching fighting methods. It's reported that thousands of years ago a man from Babylon once arrived in Japan and was made a very high ranking official, and taught many secrets including martial arts and strategy. Of course it can't be proven but I think that if you follow the trail of explorers through history it's very likely that many martial arts migrated from Greece, through India into Mongolia, China and Korea.

Must..... resist.... urge..... to..... flame..... :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[paradoxbox]

Where do you get off flaming me? Have you ever looked at any amatsu tatara scrolls? I don't think so bucko, I gave a specific example of a specific martial art which you are not included in. You've never heard of it and you will never know much about it, so who are you or any other people in here to talk about martial arts which frankly you know nothing about.

This thread has a bunch of Chinese martial artists talking about a bunch of Japanese stuff they really have never looked at in depth. Seems a lot of people are just going to wikipedia and then copy-pasting crap straight into this thread.

SimonM as for your little smug post, if you want to flame me I'd suggest you first contact the Kuki family and maybe visit their website to do a little research. I'll even give you the link.

http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/index_e.html

Why is it for some reason people refuse to believe that some martial arts may have traveled the entire way from Greece to Japan or China, but they'll conveniently overlook the fact that buddhism traveled from India to Japan? Is it not possible that the same people who brought buddhism also brought martial arts? Hello? Is it not also possible that people from other areas of the world also travelled to Japan, and maybe, just maybe, also had knowledge about strategy, martial arts, fortune telling and medicine (yes, this was hugely important 2000 years ago)?

Considering Alexander's escapade into India, it seems extremely likely that some Greeks and other people of mediterranean descent eventually settled in or near India, and the knowledge they brought with them spread to the east. Don't be so closed minded, look at a map some day and chart the path Alexander took and a likely path any travellers or traders would take. Amazingly enough the trip ends in China. Gee ****.

[Green Cloud]

Paradoxbox, Not sure if I wwas talking to you but since this is a virtual gang bang with eveyone jumping in. I agree with you I saw the Japanese Anime movie the Ninja scroll.

[Knifefighter]

Are you retarted???
Because your so stupid.

Kind of ironic with that type of grammar you are questioning someone else's mental abilities. Maybe YOU'RE the one who is RETARDED and stupid?

[Knifefighter]

Thanks Knifefighter,
Do you feel a vulnerablility on the sides of the neck, or trapezius (sp) when shooting in, to say a forearm attack or downward crashing strikes, perhaps combined with a sprawl....?
No, downward strikes are almost never a deciding factor in whether on not a takedown is successful and do very little damage. A good sprawl with knees to the head is a much better approach for the defender.


I think as a striker it has to be an either or option, move laterally or evade, or go in for a solid knee up or spine/neck down attack.
No, it has to be both back/lateral and knees. Going in will almost always lead to the takedown, unless you have a grappling background. The spine/neck down attack almost never works.


It appears that they open their lower abdomen and legs to attack (teep or uppercut) when they go high, before the drop and shoot, ever get caught there, or is it just too small a window?
The solar plexus is open to knees if the grappler doesn't defend properly. Uppercuts can sometimes land, also.

[hskwarrior]

Knife fighter,

Don't turn your attack on me, but why are you insulting the man and his grammar?

I don't know much about him, but i get the feeling by his last name that he may speak more the just english. and that could affect someone's grammar.

BUT, this is the wrong place for the criticism of someone's grammar. this is no academic setting. people aren't submitting thesis'seseeseessss and such. so i don't see the need to attack the man personally. if you don't agree with him then stay on topic and leave the personal attacks out of it.

this is a pretty loose place with a good amount of freedom of speech, unlike some of the other forums where they attack you because you use all lower case letters.
to me, how petty can you get when you have nothing else to insult? The moment i saw them attack me because of that, i decided to jump ship and come running back here.

Go ahead and argue with Green Cloud, he's a big boy and can take it. but leave the personal insults out. please.

and as i've asked "Don't turn your attack towards me, there's no problem here."


HSK

[greensage22]

I like how tuna fish is tring to say martial arts/kung fu is useless. when mma
have to come from somewhere. Oh' and tuna most people cross train but choose to perfect a single style to make it perfect. also you sound like a 10 year old, tring to pick fights with people who know your wrong which is why they ignore you.
PS: your going to be very lonely under the bridge:D

[couch]

He started a conversation (although it was more a dig towards all of us practicioners) and then left us to duke it out.

In his first few posts, he stated that the worst thing for Traditional Kung-Fu was the MMA competitions. I tend to disagree. I think it was one of the best things for Traditional Kung-Fu. I think it was a great thing to see, because it's what the great Bruce Lee was professing to all along: crosstrain and real-time action.

Unforunately, even in my past martial arts schools that I have been through, many techniques were used on a dead opponent, unlike the resisting opponents that are in the ring trying to mash you.

Although there may be rules in these MMA comps, I still think that they are a great testing ground for someone's skills. Even though I don't plan to compete at this time in my life...it has opened up doors for me. I've been able to get together with other practicioners of other arts and styles, including groundfighting and get totally manhandled. The idea of crosstraining has opened the minds of many people, including myself.

Now, many people out there are still doing drills with their style vs. their style and with non-resisting opponents. I personally don't think this is good, but to each their own.

So, Bruce Lee and MMA aren't so new. They just come around again and again to remind us of what really works and what doesn't: simplicity. Style vs. Style was a great (and still is at times) marketing tool and that's it. Just like Religion vs. Religion creates tension, conflict and bickering...so does this Style vs. Style BS.

Martial arts are all-encompasing. Too bad Tuna Fish left. Maybe he'll come back and we can have a civilized conversation.

All the best,
Kenton

[splinter]

Ok, so let's see,

The thread was started by a really bad troll, who was eventually banned because he was a complete moron. It sucks, but sometimes this happens.

Since the the conversation has degraded in a way that I didn't know was possible,

I'd like to take a quick look at some of the arguments that have been made:

1. "Kung Fu Sucks. Only MMA works." (Originally posted by Tuna Fish)

2. "I train in ultra deadly techniques, like poking people in the eyes, and twisting their nuts. So MMA is unnecessary."
And the usual counter arguments... "If you've never done it before, you don't know if it works.", "People with high pain thresholds...", "How can you poke me in the eye if you can't even punch me in the face" etc.

3. "My style aims to end the fight as quickly as possible." (ok, what f'n art doesn't? I don't think I've ever heard someone say "I want to drag this fight out for as long as possible")

4. "Don't take this the wrong way, but you sound like a wuss." (this was just funny)

5. "I can see your point about grappling training being necessary, but because I don't want concede that chinese martial arts aren't perfect, I'm going to make the argument that Juuutsu is chinese, and all kung fu is MMA."

6. "The first time anyone ever wrestled was at the olympics, therefore jujutsu was greek before it was chinese."

7. Somehow, "Grappling training is a good idea" has been interpreted as "Kung fu sucks". I'm not sure how this works.

8. Most grapplers are stupid. (WTF? Seriously.)

9. Lots of claims about history, some with stated sources, many without. Come on now. If you don't have a verifiable source that you can share with people, you shouldn't be making these arguments, and you shouldn't be stating them as FACT.

10. Flame Flame Flame Flame Flame.


1999, 2000, 2001, and 2002 are on a conference call discussing what they need to do to get their threads back.

[paradoxbox]

Paradoxbox, Not sure if I wwas talking to you but since this is a virtual gang bang with eveyone jumping in. I agree with you I saw the Japanese Anime movie the Ninja scroll.

No clue what you're talking about. Anyway the Kuki family is one of the older families of Japan with written records going back to the 1330's. Currently the Kuki family maintains a significant number of shinto shrines which happen to be closely connected (philosophically) to the kukishin martial arts.

Here is some info relating to amatsu tatara and its connection with areas far beyond the borders of Japan. As I said before nothing is proveable but the fact that this document exists (and was written hundreds of years ago) indicates something similar probably occured, even if it's different from the version of events written here.

----

Amatsu means Heaven or Nature. Tatara means the highest secret teaching system of Martial Arts and original Shintoism spirit. The Amatsu Tatara Hibumi (secret scrolls) are special scrolls about all Martial Arts, Spiritualism and Humanism. These were written about 700 BC by the King of Mima as the history of Japan.

Tatara Isuzu Hime-no-Mikoto was given these scrolls. She then married the first emperor Jinmu and gave these scrolls to the Ohtomo, Nakatomi and Mononobe families (families loyal to the Emperor). In about 700 BC (or 500 BC, or 600 BC), The King Mima drifted from the ancient Babylonia Caldia Kingdom to Japan with three attendants and they lived on Miwayama mountain (Nara Area). He formed a good friendship with the chieftain of Japan Amaterasu Ohmikami and made great efforts in controlling Japan. This is why he was made a Kunitsu Omi Muraji (Minister). King Mima brought the special Kubikazari (necklace) which was made of 72 Magatama (jewels). The Kubikazari was not only for just fashion which was the symbol of a King. It had very important meaning and was used for fortunetelling as well. King Mima presented it to Amaterasu.

Hiboko-no-Mikoto followed King Mima to Japan. Hiboko was a great Shaman and brought Tokusano Kandakara (ten kinds of Gods treasures) of Shikin. Shikin means Rei-jutsu (spiritual techniques by truth consciousness.).

In 500 BC or 550 BC, several hundred Buddhist Vader people of the Malay race attacked Japan and fought the emperors army of Miwayama. The emperor's army fought and defeated them. From the battle the Japanese emperor's army designed weapons, created how to use them, and also how to win (strategies). From that time until about 10 AD a special scroll was written; the Amatsu Tatara Hibumi-no-Ikkan (original main secret scroll of the Amatsu Tatara) which includes all special techniques, philosophies, Tenmon (heavens things), Chimon (earth things) and others.

----

I'm unsure of what 'Caldia' refers to and I don't have access to who could have been a king or royalty in Babylon at that period of time. From what I understand this story exists not only in the amatsu tatara scrolls but also in the Kuki Bunsho Kaisetsu, a secret book for priests.

Again, unverifiable but given the fact that many explorers and conquerers wanted to get to China, it seems probable that a great deal of martial knowledge was passed from west to east. That's not to say knowledge did not already exist in the far east, but a melting pot of knowledge was created.

[couch]

That one video that Tuna Fish posted about with that 15 year veteran of Kung Fu is this gentleman:
http://www.jasondelucia.com/jason_delucias_homepage.htm

If you look at his background, you will see that after the sparring match with Royce Gracie, he took to high road and has since been in the MMA circuit (fighting people such as Royce again and Bas Rutten.) He researched where this ground-fighting came from and learned to make his 5 Animal Kung-Fu work in different situations.

Good on 'em.

All the best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Green Cloud]

Mat didn't say anythinjg of the sort!
I didn't say that at all. Read my post before YOU start talking about research. My arse is your intellectual equal.
Apart from which I did kungfu for about ten years before I started MMA... are you saying my intellect dropped when I started MMA? In which case it may be near yours now.

Wing chun kung fu, nine years. Most days. MMA two years, once/twice a week if I'm lucky. I don't know where morons with BLIND prejudice incapable of holding civil discussion are doing on this forum.

The last time a (mantis) fighter reached for my nuts, I elbowed him down his face with a chum jarn (a kung fu technique) and swept him with a lap sao (a kung fu tech) and a stamping kick (a kungfu tech). And anyway, do you have an argument?



Hey mat I figured you would be posting a thread not really surprised since, obviously you are the spokesman for the rest of these guys.

First of all I studied hakuryu jiu jitsu and also goshin budo jiujitsu. for aproximatly 7 years and studied other non classical styles for 5 more years, I have been involved with cma for 30 years, as far as your wing chun exp.

Ask any of william chungs guys about how good my trapping abilities are since I've touched hands with most of them

ask Phil redmond exuse my spelling but he is a member of this forum and can verify how good I am since he along with his training bros have trapped with me. Go ahead ask. he's on the forum, mabee we can starta new thread how good is Sifu Kaparos.

As far as my info look it up. Go to jiu-jitsu.net/history.shtml.

I'm great at kung fu and great at grappling so I fell that I am an authority on both of them.

Here is my problem, I've tried to adress certain issues with certain people, but different people come out of the wood works.

Once again I have maintaned a respectful level of conduct giving you guys facts, That you can find either on line or encyclopidias.

And as far as my kung fu abbilities are concerned there are several people on this forum that know my rep. and can verify my credentials. All I've seen so far is abunch of guys ganging up on me all at the same time all at once.

Go ahead ask Phil he is on the site or how about sifu serrsa. he is a senior guy in the William chung camp.

As far as the Ninja scrolls come on, I'm talking about simple american academics.

I guess what happens when someone has a valid point it turns into a gang bang.

Is wrong to pay homage to the father of martial arts( kung Fu).

After all this is kung fu magazine. I have given you guys reputable sources and peole that can attest to.

As far as your coments ( I don't know where morons with blind prejudice incable of holding Civil conversation are doing on this forum) Are you kiding me have you read all the threads. I've conducted my self like a gentleman and provided info to the best of my abilities.

Every one else with the exeption of Merryprakster guy who I was having a debate with originaly. Responded with snive coments, not intelegent debate wich was my original intent. Here's the deal I out rank you in kung fu and in Jiu jitsu as anyone that knows me on this forum. As far as my fighting is concerned the same goes.

I must admit you did provided some intelegent insight but you weren't very objective and I'm a little confused about that because I thought you were a moderate.

Anyway Greencloud.net that's my site my house you guys are all invited to come meet me in person and discuss this face to face.

All I've seen on this site is children trying to act like men. Give me a break, I can't undrstand why you all get so angry when I'm just trying to conduct a debate, and Tuna fish was kicked off. Give me a break.

I'm done with this surperfluess thread because like I said no one is my intelectual equal, and when It comes to skill well, most of these guys on this thread couldn't hold a candle to me.

Once again I repeat this to you that's why a reputable Sifu like Doc fei wong, stopped debating on this forum.

[Green Cloud]

Mat didn't say anythinjg of the sort!
I didn't say that at all. Read my post before YOU start talking about research. My arse is your intellectual equal.
Apart from which I did kungfu for about ten years before I started MMA... are you saying my intellect dropped when I started MMA? In which case it may be near yours now.

Wing chun kung fu, nine years. Most days. MMA two years, once/twice a week if I'm lucky. I don't know where morons with BLIND prejudice incapable of holding civil discussion are doing on this forum.

The last time a (mantis) fighter reached for my nuts, I elbowed him down his face with a chum jarn (a kung fu technique) and swept him with a lap sao (a kung fu tech) and a stamping kick (a kungfu tech). And anyway, do you have an argument?



Hey mat I figured you would be posting a thread not really surprised since, obviously you are the spokesman for the rest of these guys.

First of all I studied hakuryu jiu jitsu and also goshin budo jiujitsu. for aproximatly 7 years and studied other non classical styles for 5 more years, I have been involved with cma for 30 years, as far as your wing chun exp.

Ask any of william chungs guys about how good my trapping abilities are since I've touched hands with most of them

ask Phil redmond exuse my spelling but he is a member of this forum and can verify how good I am since he along with his training bros have trapped with me. Go ahead ask. he's on the forum, mabee we can starta new thread how good is Sifu Kaparos.

As far as my info look it up. Go to jiu-jitsu.net/history.shtml.

I'm great at kung fu and great at grappling so I fell that I am an authority on both of them.

Here is my problem, I've tried to adress certain issues with certain people, but different people come out of the wood works.

Once again I have maintaned a respectful level of conduct giving you guys facts, That you can find either on line or encyclopidias.

And as far as my kung fu abbilities are concerned there are several people on this forum that know my rep. and can verify my credentials. All I've seen so far is abunch of guys ganging up on me all at the same time all at once.

Go ahead ask Phil he is on the site or how about sifu serrsa. he is a senior guy in the William chung camp.

As far as the Ninja scrolls come on, I'm talking about simple american academics.

I guess what happens when someone has a valid point it turns into a gang bang.

Is wrong to pay homage to the father of martial arts( kung Fu).

After all this is kung fu magazine. I have given you guys reputable sources and peole that can attest to.

As far as your coments ( I don't know where morons with blind prejudice incable of holding Civil conversation are doing on this forum) Are you kiding me have you read all the threads. I've conducted my self like a gentleman and provided info to the best of my abilities.

Every one else with the exeption of Merryprakster guy who I was having a debate with originaly. Responded with snive coments, not intelegent debate wich was my original intent. Here's the deal I out rank you in kung fu and in Jiu jitsu as anyone that knows me on this forum. As far as my fighting is concerned the same goes.

I must admit you did provided some intelegent insight but you weren't very objective and I'm a little confused about that because I thought you were a moderate.

Anyway Greencloud.net that's my site my house you guys are all invited to come meet me in person and discuss this face to face.

All I've seen on this site is children trying to act like men. Give me a break, I can't undrstand why you all get so angry when I'm just trying to conduct a debate, and Tuna fish was kicked off. Give me a break.

I'm done with this surperfluess thread because like I said no one is my intelectual equal, and when It comes to skill well, most of these guys on this thread couldn't hold a candle to me.

Once again I repeat this to you that's why a reputable Sifu like Doc fei wong, stopped debating on this forum.

[SevenStar]

I like how tuna fish is tring to say martial arts/kung fu is useless. when mma
have to come from somewhere.


Where it did / didn't come from is irrelevant. All that matters is what it is now. What it is now is not kung fu.

[Merryprankster]

I'm sorry Green Cloud,

I was sort of assuming the "Epic of Gilgamesh," wherein Gilgamesh and Enkidu wrestle, was what was called "common knowledge" and didn't need citation. Further, it's not some sort of "caveman humping." Rather, it details that Gilgamesh threw Enkidu to the ground, ending the match. The story is considered the oldest story ever told. It is at the very least, probably the oldest story ever written down, since they were written in cuneiform on clay tablets.

Where's the "so what?" in this? Well, the so what is that first, the story is undoubtedly older than when it was written down - about 5000 years ago. Secondly, it suggests that wrestling was a common form of personal combat in that the story did not have to explain what wrestling was. This suggests that the audience was familiar with it. Finally, the fact that the match ended when Gilgamesh threw Enkidu to the ground, indicates that wrestling was, in fact, so well established that there were common rules of engagement and agreement over what constituted victory.

Now, even if Chinese wrestling is older, am I to believe that vibrant trade was occuring between these civilizations, so much so that somebody imported it and that's how the sumerians got wrestling? I don't think that was the case, and historical evidence suggests it certainly was not.

Regardless of what you may or may not feel about the validity of Samoan arts or cavemen grappling, a simple fact of human existence is that conflict has been part of it for millenia. As humans, we pass information to other humans in our "tribe." Surely, some of that information would be related to fighting, and "systems" would develop over time. This is what I mean by convergent evolution. Two or more separate, distinct groups of people develop solution sets to the problem of combat.

In the face of that, I don't think its safe to start talking about one place or style as the "mother" of MA. For instance, there are indigenous stick fighting systems in Africa, that I am pretty sure have nothing to do with Chinese systems. I refer you back to the Sumo/Cornish wrestling example as well (they have nothing to do with each other).

Now, I don't doubt that Chinese arts had an influence on Japanese arts, and I'm certainly betting that several have Chinese origins. However, I don't think the Japanese didn't have fighting before the Chinese got there. And if they had fighting, they had some sort of system of teaching, or else it would be impossible to field soldiers, body guards, etc.

Regarding MA and history, I'm sorry, but MA is full of more inaccuracy, myth and outright lies than just about any other subject I can think of. I am always HIGHLY skeptical of any MA history (with the exception of the general history of Judo - vice apocryphal stories about it -, which is extremely well documented). Unlike most history, there is no accepted ground truth, nor even "camps of thought," in general. You can read 10 different authors and get 10 different answers to the same question. One guy will tell you x style came from y and another will tell you that y came from x, and then some other guy will tell you that 'z' is really the parent. sigh....


I tend to ask myself what seems reasonable, instead, and take all the histories with a grain of salt.

If you are curious about Kalari, there's a ton of stuff on the web. Many argue that Kalari was the father/mother of TCMA! I am more inclined to believe, as I have already stated, that there was convergent evolution. People everywhere have needed to fight, and needed to fight effectively. That means the knowledge must be transmitted from person to person, and that leads to the development of a system (as opposed to an individual style).

[Yum Cha]

Thanks for the tips Knifefighter.

In one of the videos posted by TunaTown (as in taking the skin boat to tuna town), was the deluca vid.

He got Royce in a headlock, I believe its called the guillotine? Royce worked his ribs till he let go. That seemed like an exceptional escape, and that Deluca could have done more with that hold. Is that a fair comment, or wishful thinking?

My experience is that that hold is punishing in the stand up with a lift, and reasonably easy to get when fighters shoot on you.

Seeing deluca get it, then get rolled and reversed got me thinking.

[Knifefighter]

He got Royce in a headlock, I believe its called the guillotine? Royce worked his ribs till he let go. That seemed like an exceptional escape, and that Deluca could have done more with that hold. Is that a fair comment, or wishful thinking?

My experience is that that hold is punishing in the stand up with a lift, and reasonably easy to get when fighters shoot on you.

Seeing deluca get it, then get rolled and reversed got me thinking.

Definitely wishful thinking. Delucia's only option from there was escape. Royce was mounted on Delucia, so offensive attacks would not work for Delucia from there. The guillotine from the position that Delucia was in was completely worthless... very easy to escape. That is why knowledge of positioning on the ground is paramount. That same guillotine would have been much more dangerous if Royce was in Delucia's guard.

[Knifefighter]

IHe researched where this ground-fighting came from and learned to make his 5 Animal Kung-Fu work in different situations.
What he did was train BJJ at the Torrance academy after his first match with Royce.

[Knifefighter]

Ask any of william chungs guys about how good my trapping abilities are since I've touched hands with most of them.
Trapping is not fighting... not even close to it. The fact that you are using this as a basis for someone to judge your fighting ability shows that you are most likely pretty clueless about real fighting.



I'm great at kung fu and great at grappling so I fell that I am an authority on both of them.
Really??? What are your grappling credentials? Training traditional jujutsu with cooperative opponents counts for nothing in terms of being a grappler. What grappling tourneys have you competed in? What name grapplers have you rolled with?



Once again I have maintaned a respectful level of conduct ....
I've conducted my self like a gentleman..
Where I come from calling someone stupid and "retarted" is not respectful or acting like a gentleman. It is the sign of an a$$hole.


Here's the deal I out rank you... in Jiu jitsu...
I don't think so. At least not the kind of Jiu Jitsu that actually fights.

[Green Cloud]

I'm sorry Green Cloud,

I was sort of assuming the "Epic of Gilgamesh," wherein Gilgamesh and Enkidu wrestle, was what was called "common knowledge" and didn't need citation. Further, it's not some sort of "caveman humping." Rather, it details that Gilgamesh threw Enkidu to the ground, ending the match. The story is considered the oldest story ever told. It is at the very least, probably the oldest story ever written down, since they were written in cuneiform on clay tablets.

Where's the "so what?" in this? Well, the so what is that first, the story is undoubtedly older than when it was written down - about 5000 years ago. Secondly, it suggests that wrestling was a common form of personal combat in that the story did not have to explain what wrestling was. This suggests that the audience was familiar with it. Finally, the fact that the match ended when Gilgamesh threw Enkidu to the ground, indicates that wrestling was, in fact, so well established that there were common rules of engagement and agreement over what constituted victory.

Now, even if Chinese wrestling is older, am I to believe that vibrant trade was occuring between these civilizations, so much so that somebody imported it and that's how the sumerians got wrestling? I don't think that was the case, and historical evidence suggests it certainly was not.

Regardless of what you may or may not feel about the validity of Samoan arts or cavemen grappling, a simple fact of human existence is that conflict has been part of it for millenia. As humans, we pass information to other humans in our "tribe." Surely, some of that information would be related to fighting, and "systems" would develop over time. This is what I mean by convergent evolution. Two or more separate, distinct groups of people develop solution sets to the problem of combat.

In the face of that, I don't think its safe to start talking about one place or style as the "mother" of MA. For instance, there are indigenous stick fighting systems in Africa, that I am pretty sure have nothing to do with Chinese systems. I refer you back to the Sumo/Cornish wrestling example as well (they have nothing to do with each other).

Now, I don't doubt that Chinese arts had an influence on Japanese arts, and I'm certainly betting that several have Chinese origins. However, I don't think the Japanese didn't have fighting before the Chinese got there. And if they had fighting, they had some sort of system of teaching, or else it would be impossible to field soldiers, body guards, etc.

Regarding MA and history, I'm sorry, but MA is full of more inaccuracy, myth and outright lies than just about any other subject I can think of. I am always HIGHLY skeptical of any MA history (with the exception of the general history of Judo - vice apocryphal stories about it -, which is extremely well documented). Unlike most history, there is no accepted ground truth, nor even "camps of thought," in general. You can read 10 different authors and get 10 different answers to the same question. One guy will tell you x style came from y and another will tell you that y came from x, and then some other guy will tell you that 'z' is really the parent. sigh....


I tend to ask myself what seems reasonable, instead, and take all the histories with a grain of salt.

If you are curious about Kalari, there's a ton of stuff on the web. Many argue that Kalari was the father/mother of TCMA! I am more inclined to believe, as I have already stated, that there was convergent evolution. People everywhere have needed to fight, and needed to fight effectively. That means the knowledge must be transmitted from person to person, and that leads to the development of a system (as opposed to an individual style).

Spoken like a true gentleman, point well taken. I realy wasn't disputing the fact that, these styles of fighting didn't exist but rather that since most of this stuff is hard to prove.

As far as the historical value I tend to lean toward documented systems like the pancriatic arts or the roman greco stuff that were documented systems of fighting. Not to correct my self but I believe that penjak silat might be even older than kung fu.

Instead I was getting my info from actual Jiu jitsu web sites and trying to clarify that most of the documented systems came via Greece through India and eventualy made there way to the Shaolin Temple.

Keep in mind I never stated that Jiu jitsu came from china it,s definatly Japanese and refined over the years. I was simply stating that these various arts were influence by CMA during there period of growth

I actualy watched a Wesly Snipes show that was honoring different Masters and when they defined what jiu jitsu is, they actualy sai that it came from Brazil. I'm sure you saw it.

The point is that we have to be careful, about the info that's put out there. I'm sure the Japanese werent happy about that reference.

I'm very happy to finaly speak to someone who speaks with clarity. The point of these discussions is to learn by providing insight. peace

[Knifefighter]

Perhaps it was because I didn't like using my face to close the gap.

I didn't feel it was nessary to be a big mean steroid monster to be able to protect myself.

When it came to fighting me they didn't stand a chance.

As far as the video with the kung fu guy that was fighting a Gracie, well I watched it and that guy didn't look like he knew kung fu, I thought the Gracie guy was the kung fu guy at first.

Size matters when it comes to grappling,

You have never trained grappling (outside of the pretend grappling you may have learned in your kung fu class) a day in your life.

[SimonM]

Instead I was getting my info from actual Jiu jitsu web sites and trying to clarify that most of the documented systems came via Greece through India and eventualy made there way to the Shaolin Temple.


The problem is that there is no evidence of this occuring.

Also look at the history of interaction between some of these places:

Greece and Pesia know each other back into the dawn of history. And they fight and fight and fight. Persia is looking west for expansion and ignoring the rag-tag tribes of eastern Iran and Afghanistan while Greece is looking east but can't get past Persia.

Then Alexander the great manages to conquer Persia and begins a rapid eastward expansion. He gets to Iran and Afghanistan and lo and behold! They already know how to fight. He gets to India and, surprise surprise, they already know how to fight there.

So why should we assume that the Chinese and the Japanese didn't already know how to fight before they contacted the Indians? Fighting - particularly wrestling is something that turns up everywhere. Claims based on a few fragments of Japanese documentation of very questionable provenance are hardly strong evidence. The Bodidharma myth is also weak evidence as there was lots of Gong Fu in China long before Shaolin Temple opened it's gates.

Recently there have been attempts amoung native north american groups to ressurect their traditional fighting arts. I'm darn sure those were not of Greek origin.

Did people from different places interact?

Yes.

Did they likely trade techniques?

Possibly. Even likely. But the key word here is trade.

Was there a west to east flow of knowlege of fighting arts?

NO!

[Green Cloud]

Listen up Knifefighter, You only choose to see what you want to believe, In responce to calling people stupid look back at the post's I was responding to verbal unconstructive atacks. I never threw the first stone and was trying to have a conversation with Merryprakster.

I'v already wasted to much time getting gang banged by you guys that refuse to debate in a mature manner. You are right about one thing, I should have never allowed myself to stoop to the level of discussion that some of these guys have taken it to.

Take a lesson from merryprankster.

[SimonM]

No clue what you're talking about. Anyway the Kuki family is one of the older families of Japan with written records going back to the 1330's.

<Snip>
The Amatsu Tatara Hibumi (secret scrolls) are special scrolls about all Martial Arts, Spiritualism and Humanism. These were written about 700 BC by the King of Mima as the history of Japan.

<snip>

In about 700 BC (or 500 BC, or 600 BC), The King Mima drifted from the ancient Babylonia Caldia Kingdom to Japan with three attendants and they lived on Miwayama mountain (Nara Area). He formed a good friendship with the chieftain of Japan Amaterasu Ohmikami and made great efforts in controlling Japan. This is why he was made a Kunitsu Omi Muraji (Minister). King Mima brought the special Kubikazari (necklace) which was made of 72 Magatama (jewels). The Kubikazari was not only for just fashion which was the symbol of a King. It had very important meaning and was used for fortunetelling as well. King Mima presented it to Amaterasu.


Let's look at a few major problems with this story.

1: There is a HUGE gap between 1330 AD and 700 BC. We are talking about 2000 years of no records here! After all by your own admission the records of this "old Japanese family" go back to the 1330s. NOT 700 years before the common era. Right there they lose any credibility as a source of information regarding such ancient history. They have no records of it.

2: There is nearly NOTHING known about Japan prior to about 300 BC. We know they made pottery which is refered to as Jomon and were hunter-gatherers. That's it. For what is known about the Jomon and Yayoi periods of Japanese history please consult: http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/ANCJAPAN/YAYOI.HTM - produced by Washington State University* and http://www.nbz.or.jp/eng/prehistoric.htm - produced by the Niigata Prefectural Museum of History.

3: Hold on... Your evidence is that a Babylonian king sailed to Japan during a period where Japan was still hunter-gatherers and gave a special scroll to Amaterasu? I missed that the first time through. This is not credible evidence.

*According to this website the first Japanese state was founded around 200 AD. There was no cheiftain of Japan in 700 BC and it certainly wasn't the freaking solar goddess.

[Knifefighter]

Take a lesson from merryprankster.

OK then, how about listing your grappling credentials, since you are supposed to be an expert in that area.

[Green Cloud]

I hope all you Jiu-jitsu and wrestin enthusiast are paying attention espesialy Mat and Uno****usai.

Now please be quiet while I school you boys.

The next theory is that there were many forms of wrestling that had developedvin China one of the most notable is Horn wrestling called Jiao Dixi.

this form was practiced by the Mongolians, and later evolved into Jia Li wrestling without the horns. this form of wrestling can ce seenin native american cultures.

Most likely arrived by the migrating Mongolians through now modern Alaska. Jiali evolved and beacme xiangpu and is said that this form of wrestling became Sumo in Japan.

in short wresteling did exist in China and Mongolia before jiu jitsu did in Japan.

Mat are you paying attention???



In my previous post I believe we were talking about the same thing.

[viper]

stick with a big hunk of dog poop on he end thatll beat anyone.:p

[Jules]

Knifefighter said to Green Cloud:




I don't think so. At least not the kind of Jiu Jitsu that actually fights.

:D This is me, laughing hysterically. Very easy for you to say over the internet. Very difficult indeed for you to say to his face. If you had the slightest idea who you were talking to...!

The funniest part is this:



You have never trained grappling (outside of the pretend grappling you may have learned in your kung fu class) a day in your life.

"Learned in your Kung Fu Class." Dude, I just laughed so hard I scared the neighbors. You have no idea how silly you look right now. But keep it up, though. There's nothing good on TV and you're kind of entertaining.

~~Jules

[Knifefighter]

This is me, laughing hysterically. Very easy for you to say over the internet. Very difficult indeed for you to say to his face. If you had the slightest idea who you were talking to...!
Enlighten me then, Jules. Who is this "master of fighting" you hold in such high regard?

[Green Cloud]

OK then, how about listing your grappling credentials, since you are supposed to be an expert in that area.


Don't need to Jiujitsu is in my past, I'm a purist and only use my kung fu skill. What ever weaknes my style had I corrected and refined it years ago way before anyone even herd of BJJ. I opened my first school when I was 17 and I run several studios today. I'm 39 you do the math. started training at the age of six. Dont need credentials, not my fault if youre a Jhonny com lately

[Knifefighter]

Pretty much what I figured.

[Green Cloud]

Hey Jules how are ya. I have to got to Sifu Jew leuns funeral tomorrow morning.

he was a great man the grandmaster of the seven star preying mantis system. I go to get early night sleep.

Anyway I've grown tired of this thread. With the exeption of a few the majority of the guys on this thread are not worth it. There just haters. This thread has taken up to much of my time and is pointless.

[unkokusai]

Don't need to Jiujitsu is in my past, I'm a purist and only use my kung fu skill.


Do I have to say it?.................:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

With the exeption of a few the majority of the guys on this thread are not worth it. There just haters. .


That's interesting. 'Haters' of what?

[unkokusai]

bucko, I gave a specific example of a specific martial art which you are not included in. You've never heard of it and you will never know much about it, so who are you or any other people in here to talk about martial arts which frankly you know nothing about.**.


You post that and then protest against being flamed? .......Ok.

[unkokusai]

"how about listing your grappling credentials?"



Don't need to


.....NEXT!

[unkokusai]

I'm great at kung fu and great at grappling so I fell that I am an authority on both of them.

I have maintaned a respectful level of conduct

Here's the deal I out rank you in kung fu and in Jiu jitsu as anyone that knows me on this forum. As far as my fighting is concerned the same goes.


All I've seen on this site is children trying to act like men.


I'm done with this surperfluess thread because like I said no one is my intelectual equal, and when It comes to skill well, most of these guys on this thread couldn't hold a candle to me..




...........good lord. :rolleyes: The Dean of Clown College is in town!

[unkokusai]

I could go on... but you wouldn't listen which I suspect is why wise men like Unkokusai stick to one-liners.


Yo~ wakata na, kono hito! :cool:

[SimonM]

Oh, by the by, I did visit the site you posted paradoxbox. I'm nothing if not thorough when I research. Under the link of "The Secret Documents of the Kukis" there is a total of one reference to "Amaterasu Tatara". This is in relation to a work writen by Takamatsu Chosui. Since this man was alive in the 1940s this is not a particularly credible pre-history.

Just because I practice Chinese Martial arts please don't assume I am entirely ignorant with regards to Japan, their history and their myths. It is a foolish assumption to do so.

[Mr Punch]

In the interests of offering you an olive branch, since you seem to have taken everything I said as (a) some kind of personal insult and (b) in the worst way possible, I will attempt, just one more time to explain my position.

Summary (read my posts in order and this is supported):

1) I agreed with you about Kung Fu being MMA.

2) I stated that if you (generic 'you', not 'you, Green Cloud, respected Sifu, scholar and gentleman') are doing a kung fu style that has supposedly remained pure for any prolonged period of time, you will probably lose to someone who has a more rounded, evolved and mixed set of fighting skill-sets. Without attacking 'grapplers' in any way - as I'm not even talking specifically about grappling, would you agree or disagree with this statement?!

3) Your historical facts are (a) not facts and (b) not adequately substantiated (saying you read an encyclopedia is no evidence) and (c) WRONG! I suggested that your 'knowledge' of MA history, especially relating to Japanese MA is not particularly your strong point.

4) It doesn't matter that there was some (very arguable as to how much) influence of Chinese arts on Japanese because those Japanese arts evolved and have been distinct from the Chinese ones for a long time.

Everything else I said was intended to back up these points, and until you started insulting my intellectual level I don't think you'll find anything particularly rude in my posts.
Further in relation to 2) above, you automatically supposed I was siding with 'grapplers', and that I am some kind of ringleader of a 'gang-bang' (your gentlemanly expression, not mine). I can assure you that I have only ever 'met' the people known here as Knifefighter, Unkokusai, SevenStar etc or 'spoken to' them as a function of this board, they all have quite different opinions of many things to me, and I am in no way 'their' ringleader. I can also attest that they know a hell of a lot more about grappling than I do, so I would in no way posit myself as a ringleader even if I did know them.

I can further state that I know that they know more than me because of the things they say, not because of who they say they are. We have Jules's and possibly Ross's backing as to who you are, but that doesn't escape the fact that whereas Knifefighter, Unkokusai and SevenStar often have civil discussions with people who disagree with them, and often prove by what they've said to be knowledgeable about their subjects, you are paranoid (in your talk of gangbangs and ringleaders and you perceived 'grapplers' conspiracies) and frequently inaccurate, for example by choosing to cite encyclopediae and to sneer at dojo scrolls (not some fairytale 'ninja scrolls' as you put it, but densho - scrolls of transmission, the meticulously written histories of the ryuha which are used by the people who write the encyclopediae you are reading) without telling us which encyclopediae, which pages etc, and without listening to dates which clearly point out the fallacy in what you are saying.

Therefore, (relating to 3 above) I can safely say that although I hold you no ill-will whatsoever, just because you are an experienced grappler and sifu, doesn't mean that you know what you're talking about on history. I'm an experienced forester, but that doesn't qualify me to talk about the history of forestry. Also just because you're an experienced this and that doesn't entitle you to any respect if you behave like an arse.

And frankly, you don't listen, you can't follow an argument and you contradict yourself.

Here are some specific examples:

I haven't insulted anyone.



Mat I often find that most grapplers are not my intelectual equals...I don't even know what you so called grapplers are doing on this forum.

(Contradiction)

(BTW, Then I said I was primarily a kung fu practitioner with as yet scant experience in grappling thus in now way representative of grapplers in general or any perceived grapplers gangbang on this board, to which you then started a ****ing contest stating you were my superior in every way: (not following the argument)
-----------


mat said kung fu styles are not grappling systemswhich I can assume assume came as an answer to the previous post by SevenStar as I had said nothing of the sort (which I pointed out to you already in the next post)!
by today's standard, kung fu is not mma. the term mma denotes striking and ground grappling. The latter eliminates like 90% of kung fu schools from this definition.
(Again, you're not following the argument!)
-----------

How about karate yup from okinawa taught to the peasants by a monk from shaolin.

Bing-bong! Congratulations! One out of four!(Agreeing with you)

Mat listen up in the 16th century it is a well known fact that shaolin boxing and found its way to Okinawa from China. Guess you're arguing with yourself there. (Could this be... not following the argument?!)
----------


Keep in mind I never stated that Jiu jitsu came from china it,s definatly Japanese and refined over the years.

I have a question for you, where do you think jiu jitsu came from?? I'l anwere that for you it came from kung fu.
(shurely shome mishtake!)
-----------

et ****ing cetera.

Like I said, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Chinese arts influenced Japanese. Indeed, there is plenty of evidence to suggest Japanese people came from China and Korea maybe 3000 or so years ago, so arguably all of their culture comes from China and Korea.

My point was, it doesn't matter at all. They are now Japanese arts and many of them have been for approx 1000 years and have developed and evolved with the times, which is what kung fu also needs to do (and in some cases has done).

If you'd stop arguing with yourself, and wasting time misquoting unproven speculation from encyclopediae, and ignoring evidence from primary sources of as much validity as your Olympic records (eg the Kojiki and the Nihonshiki, and koryu densho - just because you don't know what these things mean it doesn't mean you should dismiss them as 'ninja scrolls' - YOU do some ****ing research)... you'd find we are not that far off agreeing!

:D

Watch... I'm not coming back to answer you on this thread! :)
And if I were you, since you can't follow an argument, are insulting everybody etc etc, I'd take your own advice and not come back to the board! Though, personally, I don't mind if you stick around, you personally aren't gonna be hearing much from me. ;)

[Mr Punch]

I agree with most of what you say, but...

And FWIW the term koryu as an official definition as a type of martial art only came into being in the mid-late 1800's. Back in the day, like for example 1520, everything was just bujutsu.I don't think this is accurate. I can't remember my source and I don't have time to look it up, but I do think that there were already various delineations of bujutsu in those days, and that the term koryu was already in use in the 1500s to distinguish them from the newly established schools. Certainly by Musashi's time there were different names of schools. and styles of fighting.

And thanks for the info on the Kuki family archives... but I'd also be a little careful of getting all of your source material from one koryu family's research and scrolls... the koryu are notorious for embellishing their own histories and making spurious claims like those linking them to the Kojiki and its contents and don't forget the Kojiki itself is a mythology as much as a history esp in its stories of the migrations and formation of the islands.

[Ray Pina]

no comment???

i guess i would be alittle upset too if i trained all my life in snake fist kung-fu only to get beat down by some kid with 3 months of BJJ training.


Welcome to the board tuna fish.

Were do you live? Not only do I study Kung Fu, I study internal kung fu and am in need for a match.

[CoRWiN]

This thread started as a hater thread and clearly it hasn't changed course. Bad Joo Joo. Let's just let this one die a quiet death. As if a forum thread could discover what TRUELY worked. The answer is it all works. Just need enough practice and the right circumstances. If we want to make this a bit more logical let's debate about certain criteria. Let's say what techiniques would be best against a guy of such and such background in such and such circumstance. Stop the flaming :D

Me Love Kung-Fu Long Time!!

[splinter]

Why do I keep looking at this thread?

It's like a train wreck. I'm disgusted everytime I look, but I can't help it.

Note: There are some very well thought out posts here, and I applaude the people who have had the patience to write them, but aren't your heads getting swore from banging them agains the wall like that?

[Ray Pina]

These have become very predictable.....

The "traditionalists" who don't fight, never fight, say they could beat the well trained guy if he could only kick him in the balls or poke him in the eyes not realising that the other guy's targeting system can change too ..... and he strikes better, has more agression and experience not being hit.

Then there's MMA-type guys who jump down the traditionalist's throats.... but they don't fight either. They learned to roll a little bit but don't like to get hit. Or their school doesn't push the fact that fights might end on the ground often enough but they rarely start there .... you need to handle a grown man throwing fists and elbows at your face.

For every 20 of the above type (probably more) there is someone who does train hard, does test their stuff out .... regretably their words often carry the same weight as the other two, sometimes less -- because the other two are well versed on the "supposed to" and all the generally accepeted dogmas spewed in martial media and websites.

[Green Cloud]

[QUOTE=Mat]In the interests of offering you an olive branch, since you seem to have taken everything I said as (a) some kind of personal insult and (b) in the worst way possible, I will attempt, just one more time to explain my position.

Summary (read my posts in order and this is supported):

1) I agreed with you about Kung Fu being MMA.

2) I stated that if you (generic 'you', not 'you, Green Cloud, respected Sifu, scholar and gentleman') are doing a kung fu style that has supposedly remained pure for any prolonged period of time, you will probably lose to someone who has a more rounded, evolved and mixed set of fighting skill-sets. Without attacking 'grapplers' in any way - as I'm not even talking specifically about grappling, would you agree or disagree with this statement?!

3) Your historical facts are (a) not facts and (b) not adequately substantiated (saying you read an encyclopedia is no evidence) and (c) WRONG! I suggested that your 'knowledge' of MA history, especially relating to Japanese MA is not particularly your strong point.

4) It doesn't matter that there was some (very arguable as to how much) influence of Chinese arts on Japanese because those Japanese arts evolved and have been distinct from the Chinese ones for a long time.

Everything else I said was intended to back up these points, and until you started insulting my intellectual level I don't think you'll find anything particularly rude in my posts.
Further in relation to 2) above, you automatically supposed I was siding with 'grapplers', and that I am some kind of ringleader of a 'gang-bang' (your gentlemanly expression, not mine). I can assure you that I have only ever 'met' the people known here as Knifefighter, Unkokusai, SevenStar etc or 'spoken to' them as a function of this board, they all have quite different opinions of many things to me, and I am in no way 'their' ringleader. I can also attest that they know a hell of a lot more about grappling than I do, so I would in no way posit myself as a ringleader even if I did know them.

I can further state that I know that they know more than me because of the things they say, not because of who they say they are. We have Jules's and possibly Ross's backing as to who you are, but that doesn't escape the fact that whereas Knifefighter, Unkokusai and SevenStar often have civil discussions with people who disagree with them, and often prove by what they've said to be knowledgeable about their subjects, you are paranoid (in your talk of gangbangs and ringleaders and you perceived 'grapplers' conspiracies) and frequently inaccurate, for example by choosing to cite encyclopediae and to sneer at dojo scrolls (not some fairytale 'ninja scrolls' as you put it, but densho - scrolls of transmission, the meticulously written histories of the ryuha which are used by the people who write the encyclopediae you are reading) without telling us which encyclopediae, which pages etc, and without listening to dates which clearly point out the fallacy in what you are saying.

Therefore, (relating to 3 above) I can safely say that although I hold you no ill-will whatsoever, just because you are an experienced grappler and sifu, doesn't mean that you know what you're talking about on history. I'm an experienced forester, but that doesn't qualify me to talk about the history of forestry. Also just because you're an experienced this and that doesn't entitle you to any respect if you behave like an arse.

And frankly, you don't listen, you can't follow an argument and you contradict yourself.

Here are some specific examples:



(Contradiction)

(BTW, Then I said I was primarily a kung fu practitioner with as yet scant experience in grappling thus in now way representative of grapplers in general or any perceived grapplers gangbang on this board, to which you then started a ****ing contest stating you were my superior in every way: (not following the argument)
-----------

which I can assume assume came as an answer to the previous post by SevenStar as I had said nothing of the sort (which I pointed out to you already in the next post)!
(Again, you're not following the argument!)
-----------

(Agreeing with you)
Guess you're arguing with yourself there. (Could this be... not following the argument?!)
----------



(shurely shome mishtake!)
-----------

et ****ing cetera.

Like I said, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Chinese arts influenced Japanese. Indeed, there is plenty of evidence to suggest Japanese people came from China and Korea maybe 3000 or so years ago, so arguably all of their culture comes from China and Korea.

My point was, it doesn't matter at all. They are now Japanese arts and many of them have been for approx 1000 years and have developed and evolved with the times, which is what kung fu also needs to do (and in some cases has done).

If you'd stop arguing with yourself, and wasting time misquoting unproven speculation from encyclopediae, and ignoring evidence from primary sources of as much validity as your Olympic records (eg the Kojiki and the Nihonshiki, and koryu densho - just because you don't know what these things mean it doesn't mean you should dismiss them as 'ninja scrolls' - YOU do some ****ing research)... you'd find we are not that far off agreeing!

:D

Watch... I'm not coming back to answer you on this thread! :)
And if I were you, since you can't follow an argument, are insulting everybody etc etc, I'd take your own advice and not come back to the board! Though, personally, I don't mind if you stick around, you personally aren't gonna be hearing much from me. ;)[/QUOTE


Listen without contraversy this wouldnt be a good thread tell me it didn't get intresting real fast. This thread blew up real fast.

I'm not trying to be a wise guy, as I said originaly I was having a debate with merryprankster wich by the way handled things respectfully wich I instantly picked up on so I followed his example since that's the martial way.

Just read unkokusai's coments, one atack after the other no point no insight. Being human I fell to his level and then corrected my self. But I did have hard time responding to people when they were comming at me all at once.

At first I was pleased at the attention, even if it was hostile and one sided I have to admitt I got confuse real fast to whom I was talking to when people were jumping in left and right. Now normaly in the street I could handle being jumped all at once, but them again I am a profesional Martial artist. Not a typist

I dont spend that much time on the internet, usally I'm working

I do apologize for allowing myself to get sucked into the petty stuff. So if you choose to have a discussion with me have it. Mano E Mano on another thread but if it gets petty I'm out of there.

[lkfmdc]

There are CMA guys who practiced for:

- "health" and has no interest in fighting.
- "sport" and only want to win gold metal through tournament.
- "killing" and only care about saving life during life threaten situation.



Perhaps those three exist, there are also those who train what many call "sport" to test their skills for "killing"

Shuai Chiao has "sport"... in fact Master Chang did "sport" but was also capable of "killing"




The training are all different.



Depends, if I want an Olympic gold medal in Judo, I train to win that medal, but most Judo students train martial art, ie to "kill" and still do randori/what you might call "sport"




Why people devote years and years of training time in "iron palm"? Because he hopes one day his "iron palm" will have "killing power".



Shame on you, you should know better. "Iron palm" is a farce, we both know what Master Chang thought about "iron palm" :rolleyes:





Life time is too short to be good on everything. If you want to be good in "ground fight" then you may not be good in "stand up" fight and vise verse.



I know a lot of people who have considerable skill in both standing and the ground, and most are not that old... it really depends if you "waste" your time really...




You pick up the training that you like and also find solution to cover your weak points.



Is "you" yourself, an accomplished martial artist? Or is it a general "you"? If I let my students do only what they "like" they will never improve at all... you need to challenge them to be "better"

[paradoxbox]

I agree with most of what you say, but...
I don't think this is accurate. I can't remember my source and I don't have time to look it up, but I do think that there were already various delineations of bujutsu in those days, and that the term koryu was already in use in the 1500s to distinguish them from the newly established schools. Certainly by Musashi's time there were different names of schools. and styles of fighting.

And thanks for the info on the Kuki family archives... but I'd also be a little careful of getting all of your source material from one koryu family's research and scrolls... the koryu are notorious for embellishing their own histories and making spurious claims like those linking them to the Kojiki and its contents and don't forget the Kojiki itself is a mythology as much as a history esp in its stories of the migrations and formation of the islands.

RE the first paragraph; I suppose this could be correct depending on the usage of the word. Today the term koryu refers specifically to ryu founded before Meiji. It's possible that way back 500 years ago they used the term koryu but I can say with 100% certainty it wasn't used the way we think of it now. Not that it really matters all that much.

As for the Kuki family, well, I'm not sure how much embellishing they have done. They are a very old and influential family and most of their history has been documented at some point by people outside the family.

SimonM here's a free hint; look up the Fujiwara family prior to 1337. See what happened to them in that year and who they were before then. I'll give you another hint, they had another name change in 669. But it's all the same family. Reaching back to dates like these and we're starting to get pretty close to the dates of the mythological tales I mentioned earlier.

I think you will find that these scrolls have been around longer than your initial research is turning up. Make sure you are spelling it correctly, Amaterasu is the name of the sun goddess in ancient mythology which is also connected to the Kuki family scrolls but it's unrelated to what we're talking about here.

RE: Takamatsu; he was responsible for creating copies of many (if not all) of the kuki archives during the years before the pacific war. The Kuki family has aknowledged that the copies may not be 100% accurate as the originals (many of which have been lost) but that they are definately acceptable as replacements, and they have publicly commended his effort in copying the scrolls.

Sections concerning history are in the scroll Kuki Hibumi Shiron no Maki.

And not to be a jerk or anything, but you're off by nearly 1500 years with the jomon hunter gatherer statement. The jomon had moderately developed agriculture long before 700BC. Many historians argue the jomon had been practicing light agriculture for more than 8000 years and did not develop it further because of the abundance of other foodstuffs.

[unkokusai]

Being human I fell to his level and then corrected my self.


The fact that you think you need to 'fall' to get to anyone's level shows the depth of your delusion. :rolleyes:

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Jesus Christ there is a lot of bollocks on this thread ..........grappling will give you (amongst other things)........balance, posture, controls/grips/ties and movement - especially of the hips. All these things increase your ability to eye gouge, bite and grab flesh and also your ability to neutralise your opponents attempts to do the same. If you dont train it (ground fighting) dont bank on your ability to magically be able to do it under pressure when the shi_t its the fan." (Nick Ferrer)


***WOULD LIKE to pick up on these remarks....Nick's points (and many of Merryprankster's points) are valid - but one thing that's missing from the UFC, PRIDE, etc. - as good as these events are....

are the ripping techniques that the Kung Fu guys on this thread have been talking about. The street IS different than nhb events precisely because of rips being the X factor.

And while I'm a big fan (and participant) of wrestling/grappling...and mix catch wrestling and boxing into my appraoch to wing chun...the fact still remains that the truth lies somewhere in the middle bewteen the two opposing camps on this thread.

There's alot that goes on in MMA events that will get you seriously hurt on the street (ie.- I don't reccommend the guard position)- and so REALISTIC kung fu (or other striking arts) definitely have their place in the real world (along with all the dirty tactics and ripping techniques you can muster)....but knowing how to fight in the clinch and on the gound is also very important.

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, I agree Mr Cloud... there's too much **** round here to continue on this thread. Thanks for your post.

[Mr Punch]

Post 128, p8 summed up this thread.

Green Cloud and Knifefighter et al were all arguing for including different ranges etc as far as I could see, and only a couple of fantasists were talking about just the rips and gouges (and no-onewas saying just do grappling!).

Tuna fish wins by kungfu rip, Rex Kwon Do kick, boxing sweep and judo chop!

Ahhh, the futility!:D

[hskwarrior]

with ultimatewingchun i agree.

one thing is being overlooked here. some of only train for real life combat which may include bone breaking, ripping and tearing, eye gouging or what ever it takes to win the fight.

So not all martial artists train for competition, and vice versa with real life combat.
i agree that having the ground skill is very important because over an average street fighter you will have the advantage, however ever only on a one on one situation.

MMA is good, and it is good for kung fu too. if its so effective we should pay attention to it. but, to say TCMA is full of bs is a crock of booty dootie!!!LOL

I can speak out of experience because i have posted on here a few times when one of my students had a life and death situation and all he had to rely on was his gung fu. these guys tried to KILL my student and stabbed him in the upper torso around 6 times, but he relied on our training and when he said he needed it most it came through for him. More that once now. i get reports from my kansas school that they are knocking people out with our kung fu techniques in bar fights and such. so i beg to differ that TCMA is full of shet.

still, not everyone is a fighter even though they learn martial arts. some learn for the health side, some for the esoterics, and some learn for self defense. personally i am a self defense teacher. not a professional fighting coach. thats not my job until my students decide competition is where they want to go. but until then they keep training for combative purposes.

I don't own a commercial school so i don't have to water down my techniques. i teach what works for the situation and im sure when i start training my guys to fight im sure it will be a good thing.

gotta go

[Merryprankster]

There's alot that goes on in MMA events that will get you seriously hurt on the street (ie.- I don't reccommend the guard position)

Of course you don't. You're a wrestling influenced grappler :D

More seriously, nobody "recommends the guard" on the street - or even in an MMA match. The number of people with truly gifted MMA guards I can count on one hand (Royce, Mino, Mir...can't think of anybody else).

The guard is merely making the best of a bad situation. I don't want to stay there - I want to get up. The guard is one option to protect myself as best I can if something bad happens.

Re: "ripping" techniques. First, I again direct you to the supermarket and a thawed turkey. Tearing flesh is just not that easy - try turning a chicken into pieces with your bare hands - doable, but pretty hard. And it's not fighting back and you can use both hands. Anything that doesn't result in serious injury is merely pain compliance - which has a history of questionable worth.

Secondly, in order to employ them with a reasonable chance of success, you must already know how to fight. They are good "add-ons" to an already sound fighting base. If they worked well without a sound fighting base, then we would all practice "poke the eye and knee the groin style." After all, there would be no point in learning to fight.

Psycho Mantis,

I have, and continue to, take issue with the idea that "CMAers don't compete in the ring because CMA is for the street and ringfighting is a sport." To me, the logic that rules this statement is circular.

Let's break this statement down. What is really being said is "CMAers don't compete in these venues because of the rules." Ok. What do the rules prohibit? They prohibit techniques that arguably cause serious, permanent injury or death.

Well and good.

By saying that CMAers don't compete because of the rules, they are saying, in essence, that CMA relies on "dirty tricks" for lack of a better term for the bulk of its fighting. Groin shots, kicks to the head while down, eye gouges, etc.

But to deliver those blows, you must have sound fighting basics. You must be well versed in punch/kick/throw. A knee to the groin doesn't magically deliver itself. You must have timing, accuracy, footwork, precision, spatial awareness, etc. To kick an opponent in the head on the ground, you must have got them there somehow. That assumes a modicum of takedown skill, a well placed blow that crumples the opponent, etc. If you have those things, then the "dirty tricks" aren't your only option. You are, in fact, able to punch/kick/throw with the best of them. In fact, you MUST be able to do those things, or you wouldn't be able to effectively deliver the "dirty trick."

In short, if you can't fight without the "dirty tricks", then you can't fight. But if you can't win without them, then there is a good chance you aren't going to win with them either, because when you encounter somebody who is a better fighter, you won't be able to fight well enough to deliver them effectively on that better fighter. You might get lucky, of course. If a CMA guy beats an MMAer on the street, its not because he was able to knee him in the nuts. It's because he was better (at least for that moment). Conversely, if a CMA guy loses to the MMAer in the ring, it's not because he COULDN'T knee him in the nuts. It's because he was the worse fighter (at least for that moment).

Also, the idea of "the rules" being an issue is a bit silly because, unless you have an exceptionally high number of one-eyed training partners and death in your school, everybody trains with some sort of rules. What people really wind up arguing about is which set of rules is BETTER. Is it better to remove "dangerous" techniques and practice everything full speed? Or is it better to leave them in and "pull" some shots? It's not a question of HAVING rules, it's a question of WHICH SET people like better.

Last on this issue - in the ring, all people have the same rules. So everybody is equally limited. You can't knee him in the nuts - but he can't knee you in the nuts either, etc. Again, if you can fight, this shouldn't be a world of limitation.

If CMAers aren't doing much ring competition, it may because they don't care about it. And that's fine. But talking about the rules seems very much like a flawed argument, for the reasons I listed.

For the potentially hard of reading, again, I am using "dirty tricks" as a catch-all for lack of a better term, and so I don't have to list them all individually.

Finally, with respect to your "historical facts," they may or may not be true. I refer you to the Israel-Palestine problem for how muddy history can be when an agenda is at hand.

[PangQuan]

MP you make very good points.

I think the "rules" excuse is bs as well. I am a CMAer myself. The thing with me though is that I dont train for sport or competition.

I have not nor will I ever enter a competition. Dont ask me why. You can assume all you want.

We do all train with a set of rules. its a necessity.

Take my roomate and myself for instance. We both are very fond of Chin Na. We practice this at home. The rules we use are: dont break the other man, but push to the point of pain and actually apply the pressure points.

This way we know we are applying these techniques correctly. And yes we have suffered injuries. But the great thing about this is that Chin Na is becoming more and more second nature. This is my goal. I want to be able to apply my techniques under a stressfull situation and have them work. This is why we train to the point of injury in some cases.

The techniques I favor are techniques designed to stop a man due to a physical incapability to perform motor functions. Im not claiming mastership over any of these movements.

One thing i do know about myself is this;

When i am faced with a stressfull physical altercation (ie; not a friendly sparring match) these types of techniques are what my body like to go into. foot/knee move lock break. This is not saying that i can pull it off if i need to, yet its not saying that i can. At this point in my training i dont have total control, meaning i might accidentally pull one of these "dirty tricks" off. Provided I am not totally outclassed by my opponent. But then who goes to compete against people they know will destroy them?

the goal is that as i continue to train with this particular mindset, my probability of being able to use these techniques will grow, as will my arsenal itself.

I firmly believe in the basics and am a large fan of western boxing as well. The ability to use your systems basics and the knowledge of Timing, distance, footwork and your reaction time make it possible to use these types of techniques.

I will surely at some point introduce ground work and submissive grappling into my game, but at this point i feel that starting with a good striking base will help me more for what im interested in.

saving my life from one or multiple serious attackers intent on ending my existance or causing serious harm to me or a loved one.

Plus i really enjoy the shaolin kung fu as well as the dynamic acrobatic aspects from the light contemporary wushu i practice. In addition to my kung fu training I will begin attending the Oregon College of Oriental Medicine to learn acupuncture/pressure, herbal treatment, and massage therapy.

I dont really have time to focus and commit my self to a life of competition training.

this is my martial life style.

[SimonM]

And not to be a jerk or anything, but you're off by nearly 1500 years with the jomon hunter gatherer statement. The jomon had moderately developed agriculture long before 700BC. Many historians argue the jomon had been practicing light agriculture for more than 8000 years and did not develop it further because of the abundance of other foodstuffs.

Sources? I've provided you with two academic sources (University of Washington and a history museum in Japan) which both situate the Jomon period in the light I have identified.

Where (aside from one of the hundreds of shinto sects) is your information coming from?

There is no credibility to the information you have provided and your refutation of the information I provided is invalid because we have nothing but your word to go by.

The spelling was copied straight from your post so unless you spelled it incorrectlyhe spelling was correct. And it was not one of the scrolls "copied" by Takamatsu rather it was a scroll "writen" by Takamatsu about the previous document which is not listed in the family's archive.

Even if this family had accurate doccumentation going back to 669 that is still nearly 1000 years after the Jomon period. It's still not an accurate record of the history of that period. Considering that the Jomon period is pre-literate there can not be a writen record of that time!

Finally you still haven't addressed the fact that your position is dependant on records from a pre-literate period of Japanese history that refer to a Babylonian king giving scrolls to a goddess. For this to be true we'd have to believe in the existence of said deity.

[Jules]

I go to work for a day and the thread explodes. I hate when stuff happens without me. ;)


Enlighten me then, Jules. Who is this "master of fighting" you hold in such high regard?

If you truly wanted to know, you would just look at the website (which I believe is listed. If not, it's greencloud.net.) Also, Google is your friend. But I don't think you really want to know. I think you just want to argue.

I should point out, also, that the person who wants to go all Grammar Fu here doesn't realize that I'm in the ring also. So if you want to Grammar Fu ("you're wrong because your grammar and/or spelling is wrong!"), then dude, let's go. I might hold an orange sash in Kung Fu, but am a 4th level black sash in English. :p What I'm saying is this: if you actually have a point to make, make it. Pulling "but you spelled that wrong hahaha!" out of your butt is just not going to work here.

I realize that its easy to mouth off on the internet. I also realize that it's hard to read someone's intent through their typing and I know from experience how extremely easy it is to take things out of context or take things the wrong way. But you can't deny that protocol is a part of most Martial Arts, and anyone who is willing to share a gift (for instance, Kung Fu) that has been handed down for so long deserves respect. The whole "brash upstart is always right!" thing usually only works in the movies.

And let's not forget, this thread was started by a troll, and not only that, but a bad troll. I've seen better trolls on RPG fora, for Chrissakes.


Jules

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Originally Posted by Green Cloud
Ask any of william chungs guys about how good my trapping abilities are since I've touched hands with most of them. "

"Trapping is not fighting... not even close to it. The fact that you are using this as a basis for someone to judge your fighting ability shows that you are most likely pretty clueless about real fighting." (Knifefighter)


***I'M WITH WILLIAM CHEUNG for 22.5 years now, Green Cloud...and we need to define trapping according to William Cheung, since he defines it a bit differently than many other people in the wing chun world - which may be why Knifefighter pooh-poohs the whole idea of trapping.

(It's my understandiing that Dale Frank/Knifefighter has done wing chun in his past - but not William Cheung's "Traditional" style).

In TWC a trap is basically anytime you have pinned or grabbed even one of the opponent's arms in such a way that not only is that hand/arm momentarily immobilzed from being used against you - but his other arm...which may be free...is not in a position to be used against you because the arm being pinned or grabbed is blocking the free arm from being a threat.

(Yes...it can also mean that you've immobilzed both his arms - but it is not limited to that definition).

This first concept I described is not as all-inclusive as the idea that a trap means both of his arms are locked up in such a way that neither can actually move against you.

Not as all-inclusive...and therefore easier to achieve. It provides a temporary window wherein you can use your free arm to hit him while "trapping" with the other arm.

No...it's not fighting, per se...but it can be a useful manuever - if you've trained it sufficiently. It is often also accompanied by an unbalancing move as well - such as pulling or pushing his "trapped" arm in such a way as to put him back on his heels or to a place where he's losing balance and stability beneath him.

But to rely upon it as one's "big weapon" against grapplers or MMA guys is unrealistic - just like it's foolish to believe that rips, gouges, eye pokes, groin shots, etc. are all that's needed to save your A55. It can only be used at certain moments during a very close standup infight.

Trapping (in the way I described it) is just one tool in your tool box; but you need a whole bunch of tools in this box if you want to be a good fighter.

................


Mat:

You're right. Post 128 by couch pretty much sizes up the whole thread. :cool:

[Merryprankster]

I dont really have time to focus and commit my self to a life of competition training.


And that's perfectly fine! As is just not wanting to compete. I know many BJJers that don't compete because they simply don't want to. Or boxers that box for fun and fitness.

All of that is ok. It's not as though competition is required or necessary.

[Knifefighter]

I should point out, also, that the person who wants to go all Grammar Fu here doesn't realize that I'm in the ring also. So if you want to Grammar Fu ("you're wrong because your grammar and/or spelling is wrong!"),
I'm not usually one to nitpick about spelling. However, in this case, it begs making a huge exception. How ironic is it to insult someone else's mental abilities when you aren't even spelling the insults correctly?


If you truly wanted to know, you would just look at the website (which I believe is listed. If not, it's greencloud.net.)
Didn't see anything there much related to actually fighting, other than some pictures of people who are having trouble keeping their balance.

I definitely didn't see anything to suggest that anyone at that school knows anything about grappling.

[Knifefighter]

I'm too drunk. Hold me up with this pole before I tip over and fall on my face.

[Knifefighter]

Hold me up dudes. I don't want to tip over and ruin our ballet performance.

[hskwarrior]

knifefighter,

you big ol poosie arse wanna be knife fighting with a rubberblade son of a biatch.

you can talk all the **** you want, post all the bs and use our photo's for your own amusement. that won't change thay you are *****ly challenged.

fortunately for you you are too poosie to put up some photo's of you.

what do you got next?

oh well, just another internet ninja talking smack.

live by the knife die by the knife. hahahahaa. you are a joke. POOSIE:D

[SimonM]

No...it's not fighting, per se...but it can be a useful manuever - if you've trained it sufficiently. It is often also accompanied by an unbalancing move as well - such as pulling or pushing his "trapped" arm in such a way as to put him back on his heels or to a place where he's losing balance and stability beneath him.

<snip>

Trapping (in the way I described it) is just one tool in your tool box; but you need a whole bunch of tools in this box if you want to be a good fighter.



I agree. But my message is too short so I am going to have to babble randomly to make up the necessary word count. So in conclusion: I agree. ;) :cool: :D

[lkfmdc]

Knifefighter, I actually agree with much of what you write but now you've made yourself into a huge A - hole

Chan Tai San was a man who, unlike you, survived many real encounters not just with bare hands, but with weapons

READ IT AGAIN

Chan Tai San was a decorated veteran of the war against Japan and the Chinese civil war

Not to mention the DOCUMENTED attack that happened on 42nd street in the 1980's (Newsweek and Daily News from 1982) where he took out three guys with knives

IE, the real "knife fighter" wasn't you, it was Chan Tai San

I have no doubt in my mind that in his prime, Chan Tai San would have ripped you a new one and without thinking much about it... and I don't say that just becuase you are such a tiny guy, I mean you are like 5' 3" or so aren't you? I know you've over compensated with all those beach muscles... but we're talking about real life experience here. Chan Tai San had tons of it, with knives, chains, GUNS...

Not to mention why you find a stomp kick so "out there".... certainly Muay Thai has it's "teep" and even old style Gracie Jiujitsu has it's front and side stomps

[Knifefighter]

you big ol poosie arse wanna be knife fighting with a rubberblade son of a biatch.

We use metal knives in our fights.

[Green Cloud]

Dave, This guy is needs a beating guess since he's a Jhonny come lately, he doesn't know anything about martial virtue. I ask everybody on this thread to kill it.

Does this guy live localy is he crazy?? I draw the line when he Uses a dead master for target practice. Not funny I won't tolerate that and oh yea, If youre a knife fighter bring it so I can stick it up your ass.

I ask the rest of you on this forum who have conducted them selves in a respectful maner to not reply to this guy. or anyone that's not going to conduct a discussion in a constructive matter.

I'm talking to rest of you, not this dingle berry. kill this thread. It was started on a bad note. Let the rest of the comedians on this thread deal with them selves. Lets see how interesting it is then.

[Green Cloud]

[QUOTE=Knifefighter]We use metal knives in our fights.[/QUO



Aaa notice the butter knife is round at the tip and has no edges:eek: And who is that ugly midget on top of that kid. OOps I think I tripped over him, oh no he's starting to hump my leg oh no, not the buter knife.

I rest my case.

[hskwarrior]

who's the guy with the knife? forrest Gump?

Run Forrest Run

[Green Cloud]

Look at me look at me I'm a gladiator mom

[Knifefighter]

You guys are right... not fair to pick on dead people.

Green Cloud... PM me about setting something up for you to come out to the next Dog Bros gathering and trying to stick a knife up my ass.

[hskwarrior]

knife fighter won't come out of his focking hole to allow himself to get a beat down. he is as fake as the weapon in his hand. "We use metal knives" but what i didn't tell you is that they're harmless and couldn't cut cheese.

Green Cloud, truthfully, i was offended when he put up your sifu's photo and insulted him the way he did. it just shows that he is a poosie.

plus, it looks as if he was about to stab a dead bum laying on the street in that photo. what a joke.

hsk. oh yeah and you're a biatch too. poosie.

[hskwarrior]

this photo should be titled....."biatch give me my effin crack back or i'll stab you"

look at this old geezer


hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Knifefighter]

HSK-
Actually, you are closer. Why don't you come down to our next gathering to fight me with "butterknives"?

[Green Cloud]

I wasn't gona give the guy the time of day but when he used a pic of my Sifu well you know my position on that. And thats an interesting street with mats.

[hskwarrior]

i wouldn't waist my time with you forrest.

i'd rather shoot you to get it over with quickly.

oh, but in case you don't know, i also do some knife fighting as well as teach Latosa Escrima, so i don't find YOU all that intimidating. you might have a heart attack if you were to.....oh never mind.

shut the eff up. biatch!

you look hella and i mean hella old to be running around on a martial art forum attacking people who never attacked you first.

but thats what happens when you mix Crystal meth, crack and a trailor park dummy.

[Green Cloud]

Frank if you fight him be careful I hear he's an ankle biter.:D

[Knifefighter]

And thats an interesting street with mats.
That's the RAW gym where the Dog Bros NHB fights are held. Would you like to come out and try your skills, Mr. Expert Fighter and Grappler?

[hskwarrior]

green cloud,

do you remember in Indiana Jones when the martial artist came out all screaming and shet as if he was going to do something and indiana just looked, took a second one and shot the guy. that's what i'm talking about.

this old geezer is try to drum up some flunky's so his group of knife fighters have someone to gang up on.

the only way i would fight him is if we met on the streets and then we would see what happens.

also, i'm not one of these fools who think they can beat up just anybody. No, i'm not the baddest mo fo in the SFO. but i am the person you will not want to fight again. and if he thinks he wants to beef with me then he will have to play my game the i play it.

but i will ignore him. he will go away. i think everyone should ignore him and not respond. he will get bored and move on.

[Knifefighter]

i wouldn't waist my time with you forrest.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I figured. The bad ass "my techniques are too deadly for the ring" but "I'm a street fighter" doesn't want to put up when he gets a chance to fight with no rules. Instead, he hides in his hole with claims of not wanting to waste his time.

[Green Cloud]

Frank what's that on his head and the knee pads are for what??? Oh I see, can you say village people?? YMCA

[hskwarrior]

DUMB FOCKING OLD ASS MAN,

WHO SAID I WAS TOO BAD FOR THE RING? OR MY DEADLY ANYTHING?

I DON'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN MYSELF TO YOU, YOU ARE NOBODY.

BUT IF YOU WANT TO COME TO FRISCO AND LOOK FOR ME IM IN THE MISSION DISTRICT AT MISSION DELORES PARK. BUT CALL YOUR FAMILY IF YOU HAVE ONE BECAUSE YOU MAY NOT MAKE IT HOME.

YOU THINK IM JOKIN? COME AND FIND OUT. YOU BRING THE KNIFE AND I BRING MY nina! BUT I THINK YOU ARE TOO WHITE TO EVEN UNDERSTAND WHO MY NINA IS?


***GOT.

[hskwarrior]

Knife Fighter,

Isn't It Time For A Nap? Your Counselors, Do They Take Off Your Head Gear When Its Nappy Time Or Do You Wear That All Year Around?

Does It Come With A Retainer As Well?

Maybe I'll Get One To Match Yours.

[hskwarrior]

The Knee Pads Are So The Old Man Doesn't Hurt Himself. He Probably Wears Them All Year Around With His Forrest Gump Outfit.

He's A Punk Greencloud. Ignore Him.

[Knifefighter]

this old geezer is try to drum up some flunky's so his group of knife fighters have someone to gang up on.
The Dog Bros gatherings are held at a neutral location. Fighters from all types of systems show up to fight there. There are hundreds of spectators to witness the event, and there is no "ganging up" on anyone. So come on down, tough guy.

Oh, that's right... you're stuff only works if I attack you on the street.

[hskwarrior]

I Don't Give A Fock About The Dog Brothers.

How Did They Let You In? Was It Affirmative Action For Retards?

[Green Cloud]

That's the RAW gym where the Dog Bros NHB fights are held. Would you like to come out and try your skills, Mr. Expert Fighter and Grappler?

Yea ok I'm gonna get on a plane and fight a midget with a dull knife who knowbody knows. That will do a lot for my rep. I'd be beter off beating up a kitty

[hskwarrior]

Knife Fighter Your Game Is Weak.

[Royal Dragon]

We use metal knives in our fights.


Reply]
I don't even know what to say to this. I have been watching, but WOW, I can't belive this was not only said, but a pic was posted!!

Metal knives ehy? and your students live? You still have someone to practice with? really?

Do you keep ambulances and mortitians waiting at the curb for the nights casulties?

Say, how do you recruite enough people to keep the class filled anyway? I mean your drop out (Due to death and near fatal stabbings) must be astonomical!!

Time to wake up young ladd, the alarm has been going off for an hour now, and you are late to school!! :D

[Green Cloud]

Dog brothers no "holes" barred, what is that a gay club??? I never herd of it.

[Knifefighter]

Metal knives ehy? and your students live? You still have someone to practice with? really?
RD;
Ever fight full on with a steel training blade? Hurts like hell and sometimes you do get some pretty good injuries such as broken ribs and cuts to the head. However, it is as realistic as you can get without killing each other.

[Green Cloud]

Oh no there is a little white pigmie looking marvin the martian looking mo fo after me with a butter knife and some vasaline.

The only way to defeat this guy is if you know Tight cheeks sorry I meant tai chi.

[Royal Dragon]

Hurts like hell and sometimes you do get some pretty good injuries such as broken ribs and cuts to the head. However, it is as realistic as you can get without killing each other.


Reply]
What can I say, some people are just not as bright as others....

[Green Cloud]

Listen Marvin mark my words I will run into you one day if I don't trip over you, we will fight but with real knives. Frank wait till I go with ya and oh yea bring a snack for the big fat forest gump looking dude. You can feed him while I put dipers on the midget.

[Knifefighter]

Yeah, these are some deadly fighters alright.

[Watchman]

LOL! Those photo captions are priceless.

[lkfmdc]

Knife fighter, if you want to engage in childish tit for tat with Frank and Gus, it isn't my business and honestly I could care less

But leave my teacher, especially my late teacher, out of your BS

Furthermore, while it is easy to take cheap shots at posed, idealized TCMA postures, I fail to see what you found so "funny" about a simple front stomp kick?

Are you that desperate to grasp at something??

[Knifefighter]

Furthermore, while it is easy to take cheap shots at posed, idealized TCMA postures, I fail to see what you found so "funny" about a simple front stomp kick?What's funny about that kick? Look at the balance and the hand placement. I doubt that's how you teach your fighters to apply a front kick...
Unless Ray is right... that you actually don't know much about training fighters and have others do it for you.

[Green Cloud]

Dave come on you know thats how I get warmed up. I was trying to stay cool and even wanted to kill the thread. But when this bozo post's a pic of my beloved master well the jokes stop.

I might start by humiliating my opponent but then I go for the kill. Common you know how I am. You may be the intelectual training brother but when it comes to me I back it up.

You Disrespect my sifu I'l rip your throat out!!!!!!!

[lkfmdc]

Knife fighter, LMFAO at what a wanna be screen name that is, I have full respect for the dog brothers, ask Vinny Giordano for details, but face it, you can't compare your geared up sessions to Chan Tai San's real life experience in actual war(s)

I think once and for all you've proved what a dis-respectful turd you are...

I should go dig up some pics of Helio with captions about how he should be in an adult diaper and not a kimono... how about some jokes about how Rolls forgot and jumped guard while he was hang gliding?

You are a very little man, not only in stature, but in character

[Green Cloud]

What's funny about that kick? Look at the balance and the hand placement. I doubt that's how you teach your fighters to apply a front kick...
Unless Ray is right... that you actually don't know much about training fighters and have others do it for you.

Keep on talking. That pic of my Sifu that you posted. He is close to 70 something. I need you to shup up now!!

[Knifefighter]

Methinks you guys should stop so much with the jockriding. You have your heads stuck way too far up some dead guy's ass.

Helio's a BJJ icon. He's been my teacher. I've learned a lot from him and I respect him immensely. However, I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch because someone makes some funny comments about him.

[lkfmdc]

It's easy to sit behind a keyboard and attack old people and/or deceased people... like I said, all it does is demonstrate that you a person of non-existant character... I'm not going to sink to your level and post Helio pictures with cheap one liners, though it would be easy...

Yup, you've demonstrated some major personal failings here... you seem to have some major hang ups... are you perhaps afraid of getting old yourself?

How about posting a more recent picture? Or does accepting the fact that as you age you won't have your "body as temple" to fall back on really upset you so?

Like I said, you've tried to compensate for your lack of stature with a pumped up physicallity... as you age that's gonna be a tough challenge to deal with... you'll still be short, and those beach muscles are going to disappear...

Notice you still don't want to address the issue of being a pretend knife fighter... but I expected you'd try to just avoid that one

[Green Cloud]

It's called respect you marvin the martial looking mo fo, that's why nobody makes fun of the gracie's they earned it. Yea go ahead make fun of there father see what they do. But you still haven't adresses my question.

You think your funny but youre on a ung fu forum. Guy like me live by a code and if you insult my parent's or sifu your in for it. Common keep talking chump change.

I don't hide behind a computer, I follow up with everything I say. What you wana see credentials what idiot posted that wsa it you come down to my school, but make an appointment I wanna make sure I'm there.

I know you won't, but mark my words Marvin I'l be in your city soon.

[Knifefighter]

Yea ok I'm gonna get on a plane and fight a midget with a dull knife who knowbody knows. That will do a lot for my rep.

You Disrespect my sifu I'l rip your throat out!!!!!!!
So which is it? Are you going to hide in your hole or are you coming to rip my throat out? Make up your mind.

[Knifefighter]

Notice you still don't want to address the issue of being a pretend knife fighter... but I expected you'd try to just avoid that one
I used to work in a jail. I've had more fights against knives than your sifu ever did.

Ross, you are a wanna be, but never was fighter who rides on the coatails of your teacher and your students.

[lkfmdc]

Pardon my language, but BULL CRAP.... Chan Tai San was a decorated veteran of two wars, both against the Japanese (you call it World War II) and the Chinese civil war... ask around, pick up a history book, they were wars fought primitively and much of it hand to hand...

my sifu, I know because I knew him personally, had numerous scars from the numerous armed encounters he had. He also had his documented kills which resulted in his commendations. So again, you are full of it...

Like I said, I actually agreed with a lot you wrote and I don't have any issue with the methods you've learned (ie Dog Brothers, GJJ, etc) but you're an arse to ASSUME you have any clue about the skill of a man based upon a picture and nothing more...

Like I said, this thread proved what a little man you are....

[Green Cloud]

Marvin, Listen up I will meet up with you when I'm in your city maybee I can crash out at franks house, if your in san fran. So you can start preparing your appology.

For know know this, what comes around goes around. I don't need to make fun of your teachers as they would never make fun of me, But you and I will meet, And oh yea bring 100 bucks so you can pay me for the private lesson.

[Knifefighter]

but you're an arse to ASSUME you have any clue about the skill of a man based upon a picture and nothing more....
No you are an arse to ASSUME you have any clue about what I have done in the realm of knife fighting.

[lkfmdc]

Dale, you're such a little man, I'm sorry, have I hit a raw spot?

Facts be known, while I was never a famous fighter nor a champion, I've still had way more sanctioned matches than you. What was your record again? 4 fights? Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it was 6? Hardly undefeated, you lost to a basic choke once didn't you? So who are you to talk to me? Sure, I've had a mixed bag and when I was fighting no MMA (ie I did full contact TKD, kickboxing, a few Muay Thai rules, some Lei Tai).. but it isn't like you've blazed a trail of glory now have you?

Like I said, you are a TINY man.....

Oh, I don't consider tournament BJJ to be a "fight" since there is no striking

[Knifefighter]

And oh yea bring 100 bucks so you can pay me for the private lesson.
A hundred bucks for a lesson? How is that going to work? I thought we were going to fight with knives. Isn't one of us going to be dead?

[hskwarrior]

This Fat Guy Will Take You Out For A Burger Or Two. Old Man.

I May Be Fat, But You Too Should Become A Member Of The Hair Club For Men. You Are Too Old And May Get Hurt.

But Kepp Looking For That Piece Of Rock To Smoke. You'll Find It.

[Knifefighter]

Facts be known, while I was never a famous fighter nor a champion, I've still had way more sanctioned matches than you. What was your record again? 4 fights? Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it was 6? Hardly undefeated, you lost to a basic choke once didn't you? So who are you to talk to me? Sure, I've had a mixed bag and when I was fighting no MMA (ie I did full contact TKD, kickboxing, a few Muay Thai rules, some Lei Tai)

Come on Ross. Pretty much everyone knows you completely sucked as a fighter and still do.


Oh, I don't consider tournament BJJ to be a "fight" since there is no striking
And neither is TKD with their little chest protectors and headgear and no grappling or ground work.

[Knifefighter]

This Fat Guy Will Take You Out For A Burger Or Two.

Watch out. It might be too strenuous for a fat dude like to you have to get out of his chair.

[lkfmdc]

Dale, I have other things to do and honestly I've said all that needs to be said. You should consider how you come off on this thread, very childish and petty.

I'm not gonna sink you your level, but feel free to attack me some more personally, because it will just prove my point really.

And in case it hasn't occured to you yet, I know people who know you so cut with the mysterious tone..

[Knifefighter]

You should consider how you come off on this thread, very childish and petty..
Isn't that kind of ironic coming from you, the king of internet flame wars on forums far and wide?

[Jules]

"Knife Fighter", Item one: admittedly I was never fortunate enough to meet Chan Tai San, but he was obviously very active and clearly very proficient well into his old age. Not only that, but he was also obviously loved and respected. Do you think that you will be the same in your old age? I think not. Actually, I don't think it's likely that you will reach such a respectable age before someone shanks you for being clueless and mouthing off, "knife fighter." Sadly, I don't think many people would send flowers.

Item two: I tried speaking respectfully to you, but now you're getting off on making a big scene--maybe because the only attention you can get in your life is negative attention, and you've convinced yourself that it's better than no attention at all?

Item three: Can I offer you a nice warm mug of Shut The Hell Up already?


~~Jules

[Merryprankster]

Regardless of the tone of the thread at the moment, a Dog Brother gathering is nothing to sneer at.

[Matrix]

That's the RAW gym where the Dog Bros NHB fights are held. For those of you who do not know about this event and gym, here's a video clip (http://dogbrothersvideo.com/dbpitch.wmv) that may offer some info.

Peace,

[SimonM]

Dog brothers no "holes" barred, what is that a gay club??? I never herd of it.


I've never been particularly fond of Knifefighter but Dog Brothers fights are actually pretty valid. To be honest I've often thought it would be fun to get involved but therere were no Dog Brothers meets in my hometown (I couldn't afford travel) and I don't think that there will be any here in China any time soon.

[hskwarrior]

your mother didn't think i was too fat now did she?

isn't it shameless that he can only challenge people at a dogs brothers event?

[hskwarrior]

he's just trying to bring people to that venue.

he'll only challenge in the house of the dog brothers, and we don't care here.

he's no biggy. no worries. i won't lose sleep.

[unkokusai]

Dave come on you know thats how I get warmed up. I was trying to stay cool and even wanted to kill the thread. But when this bozo post's a pic of my beloved master well the jokes stop.

I might start by humiliating my opponent but then I go for the kill. Common you know how I am. You may be the intelectual training brother but when it comes to me I back it up.

You Disrespect my sifu I'l rip your throat out!!!!!!!


Oh, the cartoons have completely taken over now! :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

I note now that knife fighter edited his post regarding Chan Tai San, I guess he saw that attacking an older man who is now no longer here is not a noble pursuit...

To both Gus and Frank, and any others, you really should not attack the dog brothers or their method. For one, the dog brothers are not only very honorable people, they are fine martial artists and fighters. They train "alive" and are very grounded in reality. Note that I never questioned Knife Fighter's skills or devotion to practice, give the man his due, there aren't a heck of a lot of BJJ black belts.

It's just unfortunate that he thinks that makes him the only real martial artist on here and that he has tunnel vision that won't allow him to concede other's experiences...

In conclusion, I attacked him for his behavior and poor taste...

[Jules]

For one, the dog brothers are not only very honorable people, they are fine martial artists and fighters.

Yyyyeah, I dunno. I'm just not seeing the "honorable" thing with this particular "Knife Fighter" guy here. I am, however, getting a pretty good showing of his immature prat qualities, though. So there is that.

~~Jules

[Jules]

We use metal knives in our fights.

"This one goes to eleven." :rolleyes:


http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3024&d=1137869298

"Poke, poke! Does this bug you? I'm not touching you!"

Seriously, put the phallic compensation down and back away slowly. Anyone can take a knife and pose for a picture. You could have a toy lightsaber for godsakes and still look just as posed, only honestly, I think the lightsaber would have been much cooler. You could even get one of those plastic ones that makes noise when you hit it, man, then you'd be really tough! Then, for sure, you could make fun of other people's pictures, because dude, lightsaber. No one could say anything back to you.

Hey, do me a favor if you will. Please post more pictures of you and your friends rolling around on the street like that. I'm just so sure that you must have tons more on your hard drive or something, because that photo shoot must have taken a long time. It's been a long day and I could use a few more giggles before bed.

In return, if you're lucky, I'll get a few of my friends, too, and a kitchen knife (a real one!) and we'll roll around in front of the camera for a while, too. Gosh, why don't we all? That'd be a blast. Pretty ****ed easy, too.

~~Jules

[SimonM]

Yyyyeah, I dunno. I'm just not seeing the "honorable" thing with this particular "Knife Fighter" guy here. I am, however, getting a pretty good showing of his immature prat qualities, though. So there is that.

~~Jules

Knife fighter isn't one of the Dog Brothers. He just participates in some of their events. Now if only one of their events would come to Shanxi... :cool:

[Jules]

Knife fighter isn't one of the Dog Brothers. He just participates in some of their events. Now if only one of their events would come to Shanxi... :cool:

I see; that makes sense now. ^_^

~~J

[Knifefighter]

" Anyone can take a knife and pose for a picture.
Um Jules-
That photo was taken off the Dog Bros website from the last gathering in November. It is from a live fight. Of course you wouldn't know what a real fight looks like because you've only been training for a year and it's been in a pretend fighting style.

[Knifefighter]

isn't it shameless that he can only challenge people at a dogs brothers event?
Interesting... when I PM'ed you about the park all you could say was that you'd shoot me if I showed up.

[Knifefighter]

he's just trying to bring people to that venue.
The reason I would like you to fight at the next gathering is that you think fighting with an unsharpened steel training knife is no big deal. I would like you to experience it for yourself. I would like for you to get first hand experience on how badly you can get foucked up by someone with a "butterknife".

[hskwarrior]

you are either really young, or really stupid.

you think i don't know that a blunt instrument could hurt, or even puncture?

i train in knife fighting as well dude.


and no i don't need to fight at some dog bro's thing. its not my thing.

i will use my martial arts only when i need to. something you couldn't understand.

[hskwarrior]

oh, and about the part about being shot......


try fockin with me and find out. do you think im in this for games? im in this for life. and i can tell the only purose you have here is to stir up some drama.

if anyone wanted to go to the dog bro's they would. thats it thats all.

if no one wants to be a part of it, then drop it.