Does school fees get in the way?

[iron_silk]

I was reading the thread Frank posted http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39949

It was a good thread and got me thinking. Sifu is most important.

It doesn't matter the setting weather commercial or backyard as long as the instructor has the love to teach, knows how to teach, got knowledge, and good character.

There are many who teaches for free because they have a full time job (so don't need the $$$) and just want to share and spread the art. You are lucky if you meet such a person. BUT at the same time it is only fair you compensate for the knowledge taught to you. For example: my instructor had a to pay a lot to learn what he wanted to learn and yet he still teaches me for free.

MY POINT IS: If it becomes necessary to have school fees just to keep a place or equipment...how much is a good amount and when does it $$$ get in the way?

Let's say some want to learn but cannot afford it...what would you do?
Is there different expectations and perceptions when $$$ is involved?

Any thoughts?

[hskwarrior]

thanks for the props iron silk.

from a teachers point of view.....one why would i teach you something "I" worked so hard to get for free?

and two, when you charge the student, he is going to make damm sure he goes to class not throwing his money away.

some of the bay area sifu charge upward of $200 dollars a month, while i only charge $60 a month. i feel you have to charge more because you have overhead to pay. the cool thing about me teaching in the park is that all that money is mine.

and for me, there were some who couldn't pay but donated equipment, while there are some i may want to go around passing out flyers and such. it can be worked out its all up to the sifu.

peace.

[GreenCloudCLF]

I think an instructor should be paid for his services (even if offered for free).

Especially if they have a store front.

My philosophy is two-fold...1) a hungry instructor teaches ****

and 2) you get what you pay for...

[iron_silk]

I definitely agree that an instructor should be compensated...ultimately it depends on the instructor.

I think you right Frank...I guess instructor can be flexible to work it out for every student who genuinely wants to learn.

I do agree about you get what you pay for...(especially with weapons, uniform, and lions) but...I guess it is on a case by case basis.

It's all down to character I suppose and that would reflect on how they would charge for classes. If the instructor is bad it's doesn't matter if it is for free right?

I guess I am just really lucky...

[Pounding Fist]

My school has gone from a small 10-12 student base with a 1 on 1 focus to a commercial school with over 80 students.

Payment has gone from repectable to over the top. You now pay more for less. I have started to look around other places that are more value for money. Not too worried about paying for tuition but when the above happens you wonder.

[iron_silk]

Pounding Fist,

Sorry to hear what has happen to your school. What style was it? Maybe there is other school of similar style near your location.

I remember when our school was 8-10 people and I love the how much one on one time sifu gave. Now my school is still very much "backyard community" and in no way commercial but we have grown in size.

[Pounding Fist]

Hi Iron Silk,


I don't want to give away too much info about the school I'm attending because I still respect the teacher and Australia is relatively a small Kung Fu community.

As you get a bit older you finances get a bit tighter...ie buying house, renovating, family etc.. So for me I'm really looking at getting the most out of my money. Funny enough, even looking into Judo with costs around the $5 AUD a class.

Rgds,

PF

[SimonM]

I paid $75 per month at NBDMA (CAD).

My current Shifu is free.

NBDMA was not over-priced. If I were living in London I'd still be training there.

[GeneChing]

The money issue with the martial arts, especially kung fu, has always been confusing. According to legend, Wong Fei Hung's Po Chi Lum had a sign that said:
Martial art skill is difficult to transmit. If you are looking for teacher, please do not inquire even for thousand pieces of gold
Another similar famous wude saying goes something like:

Don't sell martial skill for a thousand pieces of gold. Give it away at the crossroads
These sayings perpetuate an idea that no amount of money is adequate, but there's an underlying notion that it's all about heart. A good heart is the real tuition. Of course, this presumes that the teacher has the art to transmit and can judge a good heart, otherwise all bets are off. But if we assume the best of our teachers, then we must keep in mind that these aphorisms descend from a very different warrior culture than we have today, the culture of the jianghu, which never knew any thing like insurance fees, lawsuits, or even electricity bills. China invented money, but in the village, a lot was done in trade - still is, in fact - so tuition might be a chicken or some fresh vegetables. It was a sliding scale. Poor people paid less. Nowadays, at least with the American tax system, it's the complete opposite. Ok, that doesn't affect tuition, but it would be hard to enforce a sliding scale over-the-table and be considered fair. You can't compare yesterday's economy with today's.

That being said, tuition is relative. Frank is right - tuition in the SF Bay Area is high. The cost of living here is high. And there are so many schools here that it's very competative. You can't compare that with Simon's prices in Mainland China, or even the price of classes in Modesto, CA. It's very relative.

The main thing that holds back the growth of martial arts in America is our economy. Take it from me - I've made my living solely from the martial arts for almost two decades (and only a small portion of that was from teaching). In general, martial artists are cheapskates. If you compare how much a typical martial artists spends on the art annually with any other major sport, you'll see how tiny our economy is. How much do people spend on golf, on skiing, on tennis, even on paintball? A lot more than here. So, of course, the teachers have to be paid. We have to support them in anyway we can. The teachers are the front line - they've commited to the art and are spending the time to transmit it. If you have a teacher that you value, you must do everything within your power to support him or her, even if that means bringing them fresh vegetables occassionally. ;)

[SimonM]

I wonder why martial artists are cheaper than other sport-enthusiasts. In my case it was because I was a dirt-poor student. Here in China I do spend quite a bit of money on martial arts related stuff (vcds, trips, weapons) because I'm not poor by local standards.

[GeneChing]

But take snowboarding for example. A lot of my friends are into snowboarding. Several of them are dirt poor students. They still spend more than the average martial artist - gear, lift tickets, lodging, time-off, travel etc. - it all adds up. Perhaps the cost of monthly tuition is a factor, but even if you compare that to sports clubs/gyms and such, there's less spent at the martial arts school. When I hvae to deal with the sports enthusiast community on a professional level, like at trade shows, it's embarrassing how low our economy is.

[wind draft]

I think that's because martial art is only fun and exciting to the selected few. Going fast down a mountain on a snowboard is really fun, but sitting in stance? Only the dedicated one will endure. People like fun, not pain. And in my opinion I think that's the reason.:)

[joedoe]

I think the reason martial artists are cheapskates is because it is usually a long term endeavour. With skiing, it is seasonal (as with most sports) so the costs are only incurred for part of the time. Martial arts are a constant practice, so the costs are incurred all the time.

And, as someone has also said it is a bit of a niche market which to be honest is pretty saturated with suppliers.

[GeneChing]

The martial arts aren't presented as a lifestyle in American. It's more of a funky hobby - something that someone might be able to bust out in a confrontation but mostly surrounded by a lot of oriental mysticism. At least, this is the public perception. In contrast, Yoga has become this total lifestyle, and that's where its economy has exploded. It's too bad, because the martial arts, as well all know here, is a lifestyle. It's a lifelong commitment, not something you do just until you get your black belt.

One result of this is clear: martial arts business is heavy on the front end. The bulk of the economy is based on newbies. Frankly, a lot of people don't have what it takes and quit. That being said, any shrewd businessperson plans for leaner times and takes advantage of this front end market with contracts, beginners programs, kid's programs, etc. It makes us front heavy, and this often leads to a lack of follow-up.

I think it makes the intermediate student fairly jaded. If anything, it's the intermediate student whose needs are not served by our present community. We cater to the beginners. The masters take care of themselves. Perhaps this is part of why martial artists tend to be cheap. The beginners are being raped by our front-end market. The intermediate students have gotten past that, but it's left them skeptical and defensive. The masters are just trying to make their way in this lifestyle and it's not easy going. Just because you've mastered the martial arts does not mean that you have any head for business, so you can find yourself rich in skills but behind on your car payments.

That's another one of my theories on our lackluster economy. Since I live here in this martial salt mine, I think a lot about this stuff. Did I mention my car is in the shop? :rolleyes:

[Pounding Fist]

Gene,

Nice post...

[ngokfei]

If your going to run a business then do so.

While I enjoy teaching the old saying
"While its hard to find a good teacher, its harder still to find a good student"

I've done both, run a small club, run a big school now back to a small club.

Both have the same problems. Student Dedication.

In the club atmosphere you have students who expect the world without practicing. When you attempt to encourage/correct this they get discouraged and quit.

Now when running a big school the student is now paying premium price and still you get them wanting everything. So you give it to them, of course they are paying $$$ but in the end they get bored and quit.

So it must be the sport. The pyramid theory best describes it, alot at the bottom (front end) and very few at the Top. But this doesn't seem to stop the myriad of martial arts schools opening up every year.

So I must agree is that you get what you pay for. $$$ seems to equate to dedication. Now I have students who don't pay but exchange services. My lawn gets cut every saturday.

As for Lifestyle. I believe it ahs to do with public perception. Yoga yes, positive. Martial Arts Hobby. So really how many kids actually become good citizens by doing Martial Arts. What I've seen lately is kind of like an after school program with things like relay races and dodge ball included.

when I used to run a club in the Bronx, where we made a difference. A kids report card was a requirement before grade/belt advancement. Many a time we used to represent the parent/s in school, etc.

oh, sorry, rambling here. Its 4am (insomniac).
peace:)

[iron_silk]

If your going to run a business then do so.

While I enjoy teaching the old saying
"While its hard to find a good teacher, its harder still to find a good student"

I've done both, run a small club, run a big school now back to a small club.

Both have the same problems. Student Dedication.

In the club atmosphere you have students who expect the world without practicing. When you attempt to encourage/correct this they get discouraged and quit.

Now when running a big school the student is now paying premium price and still you get them wanting everything. So you give it to them, of course they are paying $$$ but in the end they get bored and quit.

So it must be the sport. The pyramid theory best describes it, alot at the bottom (front end) and very few at the Top. But this doesn't seem to stop the myriad of martial arts schools opening up every year.

So I must agree is that you get what you pay for. $$$ seems to equate to dedication. Now I have students who don't pay but exchange services. My lawn gets cut every saturday.

As for Lifestyle. I believe it ahs to do with public perception. Yoga yes, positive. Martial Arts Hobby. So really how many kids actually become good citizens by doing Martial Arts. What I've seen lately is kind of like an after school program with things like relay races and dodge ball included.

when I used to run a club in the Bronx, where we made a difference. A kids report card was a requirement before grade/belt advancement. Many a time we used to represent the parent/s in school, etc.

oh, sorry, rambling here. Its 4am (insomniac).
peace:)


If you don't mind me asking why have to moved from running a big school back to a small club?

I understand what you mean about dedication...sometimes even when they pay they may not practice BUT maybe the parent of the kids would force them to. I paid for classes before (at times the fee was ridiculously low and other times high) now I study with a master way more to offer...fun friendly character...totally dedicated to kung fu...and teaches volunteeringly.

[GeneChing]

I'm now trying to imagine a yoga kids program where the kids need to submit their A-filled report card to receive their next level of yoga mat. Great point, ngokfei, that nails part of the cultural difference in perception between us and yoga, in truth, we're very parallel as disciplines. We just don't have Yoga Booty Ballet (http://www.beachbody.com) yet. Where's the Tai Chi Booty Hip Hop? That's all I'm asking.

But the bottom line is this - martial arts is not for everyone. A lot of people don't really have what it takes. They come to us hoping we have the answer, and sometimes we do, sometimes we can empower them, but sometimes they need to find another road. As a discipline, the martial arts are relentless. When the path looks like easy street, you've lost the way.

[SimonM]

Where's the Tai Chi Booty Hip Hop? That's all I'm asking.


We got Lou Ried instead. :eek:

[ngokfei]

Gene - so correct.

Lou was much more interesting back in the day. When he used to take class at my teacher's school he always had a buzz before class:D

In regards to my teaching. Family over everything else. Eventually will open a commercial school again. I tell my students that they are lucky because when that does happen they shouldn't be shocked by the lack of intense material.

I guess I'll just graduate students/ kind of like a baisi/closoor so that they can then train at my home and really be able to teach them alot more. (for a business note I'll make sure they commit to teaching/instructing at least 1 class aweek each int he commerical school;)