Internal arts are soft styles?

[count]

I have been thinking about this misnomer and searching for softness in my styles. I find it at times in practice but rarely in a fight. Maybe I haven't reached that level yet? I try to relax in the joints, but it still feels loaded to me. I look for softness in my root but I still feel firm. I am struggling to see the softness connection internally in the neijia arts. As a fighting art, no style could be always soft or always hard. Where do you find the softness in soft styles?

:cool:

[TheBigToad]

Soft is a bad term for the internal arts, I like the definition of the Chinese word "Sung/Song" Which means to let go and relax, but it also means a pine tree in the Chinese definition. Pine trees are flexible, strong in their root, tall, and stay green till the moment they die. Sung also means to be natural, or as is. This means to be exactly as you are without adding any excess tension.

The really good one I think about is in the YiJing/I-Ching(I can hear the groans) but if you look at Stagnation or Heaven over Earth its describes what internal strength is by telling us what it isn't.
The Heaven over Earth hexagram has the feeling of a firm, powerful and creative mind (Heaven) inside a relaxed, adapting, yielding body, which is fertile and will give birth to the ideas and intent (energies) planted inside it (Earth).

Soft gives the idea of a wet noodle or sometime very brittle. While in my studies of the Earth energy I have learned to become very soft, its still a relaxed and natural feeling, I can produce "hard" energies but I try never to loose the natural and relaxed state I should be in.

So yes an internal art can and ultimately should be done always in a relaxed and natural manner, if you wanna call that soft then ok, but its never hard musclar tension in the sense of hard.

[Sam Wiley]

I prefer the term "loose." You cannot be soft and still defend yourself. "Soft" implies too much that is incorrect mumbo jumbo, like the whole thing about defending yourself without hurting someone. You cannot defend yourself without hurting the other person. You should be doing Loose Boxing, not soft boxing.

If I may use a bit of an obscene analogy. A man cannot have sex with a woman if his ***** is too soft. And of course, although we call it hard, it is not. So there again, we have the middle ground, just as in the internal arts. We cannot be too hard, and we should not be too soft, either.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[maoshan]

Sam that was the most perfect analogy concerning the soft arts I've ever heard.

Count, What's up man?

The softness refers to more the mind than the body.Ex:You can't fight effectivly if your too irate. Anger blocks natural perception needed in
real life situations. A dangerous man is the one your having an aurgument with, with all the yelling and postering and suddenly they calm down.
This person is setting his mind on one objective.
Normally thats to kick your a$$. and if your still
in that state of mind when he attacks, he most likely will kick your a$$.
If physically your too tense, you won't move efficiently. If mentally, you can't move at all.

Peace
Maoshan

[Fu-Pow]

I prefer the word supple vs. soft...when people think of soft they think limp....its not limp and yet not fully extended.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/logo.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[bamboo_ leaf]

I have found that the idea of defending or blocking, rather then flowing and melding to the force coming in causes a mental tension that is expressed in the body as resistances to outer forces coming in.

I work with people to totally learn to accept the incoming force. This is done using push hands and other exercises to de condition the body’s instinctive use of force against incoming energy. I know this may seem counterproductive but it works for me. It allows me not try to change the direction or intention of the force but rather to extend, flow around it, ride it. Become part of the circle.

The idea of 4 ounces really comes into play, neither accepting or using more then 4 ounces to accomplish a redirect or ward off action.

You use energy to attract energy, not to attack it. If some one pushes a door the door gives and he/she falls the door did not attack that person. It seems to me the idea of attacking is also a kind of reastaint to incoming force. For me to really be soft or flexible means not even having this idea.

Mr.Ben Low, (Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo)a famous student of Chen Ming Ching was noted for his combative usage of Tai Chi in his earlier days. His touch is very soft and he still can send a person flying. I have seen films of him bouncing football type people off of walls.

The real question is did he use his own energy to do this or did they feel like they where falling into nothingness and spring back, really bouncing them selves into the walls.

What I have just said is my ideal; I would consider this skill very high level and not easily reached.

That is real softness to me.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

[kungfu cowboy]

Quote:
"If physically your too tense, you won't move efficiently. If mentally, you can't move at all."

Excellent yourself, maoshan!

[Water Dragon]

In my own practice, I'm discovering varying degrees of hardness and softness that are "joined" for lack of a better word.
1. The "Lower Bell" consists of the legs and hips. The lower bell is hard and unyielding. It is a firm unforgiving stance. It is definately not soft. My main focus on this is a locked solid stance while focusing and opening the kua by stretching it. You can physically feel the kua stretch just like any muscle and both may be opened, both closed or one open and one closed depending on the stance. I am beginning to feel that there is hardly any movement occuring in the lower bell. The correct stance provides power without haing to move.
2. The "Upper Bell" is the two arms and the upper back. This bell is the soft part. I'm beginning to think of it as "lazy" rather than soft, but it is definately not hard. Perhaps "a non-chalant movement" is the correct term. The arms are in fact driven by the "windings" of the waist.
3. The "Center Bell" consists of the torso joining the upper and middle bells. I feel this is where the majic happens. After all "the source of all movement is in the waist" There are so many references to "waist" and "Dan T'ien" in IMA that there must be something there. Somehow, the Central Bell must both unite and reconcile the softness of the upper body with the hardness of the lower body. Part of this is going back to my thread for RAF on Baji. I'm beginning to discover the springs and windings but don't pretend to understand. There is a definate feeling however.

Well, got's to get. I need to weed my lawn and then work out. No baby yet but I'll let you know.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[count]

Calm, loose, relaxed, supple, lazy, melding...

Thanks for all your replys. I think these are the goals of all trained fighters. Not so sure about lazy. (LOL) Great points, certainly, but don't even external styles seek to incorporate these attributes into their fighting strategies? Maybe not as much in their training methods but definitely in their mindset. As I think you are saying maoshan, When your emotions cause your chi to rise you become ridged, top weighted and vulnerable to being chopped down.

Sam, I too loved your analogy. Another friend of mine recently commented about the difference between the "soft" styles and the "hard" styles, "you can't get your woman pregnant by kicking her in the head". I thought that expressed the difference of philosophies between the two styles nicely. I thought my friend would reply to this thread too. (Hint, hint...)

I think many of the misconceptions of the soft styles, tai chi chuan in particular, come from people observing it from a distance and not actually feeling the force or energy from inside. Needle in cotton. They only see the cotton but do not feel the needle. I find softness within my style more as sensitivity. You can create openings with very soft blocks. This does not apply to the pressure or force that you issue but to the contact itself, and certainly does not apply to the closings or actual strikes or throws. You can not feel where your opponent is going if you are too ridged and not relaxed. I think the soft styles try to incorporate a better balance of yin and yang, not just in their fighting but in their training methods and practice. This is why the internal arts can manifest longevity. I do think "soft style" is a misnomer.

Great comments all, guys! keep 'em coming. Water Dragon, I told you, you should try some castor oil. It WILL bring on labor. I had some ready when my daughter was born but I did not have to use it. I think just the threat of it brought on labor. But I am told by many, doctors included, this will work.
;)

[Mr. Nemo]

All right, all right...

I like fu-pow's word, "supple," too.

I was also thinking about shaving motions in bagua, in yin soe (I still don't know how to spell that, by the way). I can get kind of a springing energy from the shaving motion which is hard to explain. That got me thinking, bagua isn't really soft, it could be made out of metal, but shaped like a spring, which of course yields if you press on it but then springs back. A spring is also shaped like a spiral (chan ssu jin).

Of course, you can come up with a million analogies for the peculiar qualities of the neijia styles, but none of them are perfect.

Ah, Water Dragon. Still posting, I see. You can't escape us. You could be a mormon with eight wives all expecting twins and you'd still post here, and you know it.

[ddh]

Everyone who experiences internal expansion gets a sense of body fullness. I like to think of it as vulcanized like in the vulcanized rubber tire. It's hard but springy. Another phrase that one of my students came up with is pythonization as in the python snake.

[wujidude]

Body fullness . . . I get that way after a beer . . . or six.

But that's a good description of what the masters have and the students aspire to. In all the discussions and demonstrations of "peng" energy, an inflated tire or beach ball is the most common metaphor I've seen (and felt). Hao style taijiquan makes this kind of fullness its central training focus. Yang style with its focus on rooting/structure and Chen style with the training of chan si jin also have that kind of "body fullness" ddh describes . . . but Hao trains specifically for it. I've felt it, pushing hands with a tiny (relative to me) slip of a Chinese woman from whom I was learning a section of the form. She was no Yang Cheng Fu . . . but the harder I went in the further (and faster) I went back. Liu Jishun gives some discussion of it at his website (www.wu-haotaichi.com).

[count]

Sounds kind of Spock like to me. I like the concept though. I feel this as if I have somehow swallowed a basketball.

Mr Nemo, the correct spelling of the form you mentioned, in English, would be Ying Shou. This translates to hard hand. It is a great form!

[JerryLove]

All arts are supposed to be relaxed. I would say that the internal/external description is seperate from the soft/hard discussion. While many internal arts are soft, others are not. Hsing-I for example will gladly meet force-on-force (hard) despite being internal.

Nor are all external arts hard. Many of the grappling arts in particular can be quite soft.

[ddh]

Vulcanized does sound like Spock! Softness in Taichi is a means to an end. Not only does all the classic material I've read attempt to define Sung as soft but not limp, they all say that through softness arises hardness. This is a major point of training the internal aspects through Taichi.

[BIU JI]

This is the Yau Kung in Yau Kung Mun, the "flexible power". It's relaxed until that moment of striking and then relaxe again. Like "Yin/Yang" always moving between the two in all movements, a Yin deflection with or followed by a Yang strike either with both hands or just a single hand.
All movements have these elements in them, just need to see where they are in your forms and techniques.

[honorisc]

Perhaps these thoughts,

External is not soft; it yields. As the sword blade of the Samurai. Or the wood of the English longbow.

Internal is soft like the tsunami, although attacked, it proceeds unhindered,; absorbing, surrounding, engulfing the attack. It's awesome calmness conitnues as it started. Devestating much any in its path. The path is directed by the whim of the practitioner.


Perhaps some-such very good

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[honorisc]

When you no longer try, perhaps then you could have Success~

Softness in your root, is mobile firmness--step light like lint, each step rooted as if in stance practice...don't just put down your foot, step (utilize your foot~)

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.