Ghetto Blocks

[CFREW]

I THINK THIS IS REALLY RIDICULOUS

i was in are local borders the other day, reading this moths inside kungfu magazine and there was an artical in it to get these tapes for some sort fo new streetfighting martial arts that is usaually only taught to elite gang soldiers in the ghettos of places like LA it suppose to be a style called ghetto blocks that the article said LITERLY THE MOST DEADLY FIGHTING STYL EVER, because it is made for street fighting and to kill, not to mention onlymake fights take like about 15 seconds. it even whent own to say that all these random kungufu and karate dojos dont work in a real world because they are not for these times. it supposedly also started out with millitary backgrounds but was passed down to the hood and elite street gangs, and the guy who, sponscering the tapes( thats right u can only learn it from tapes ) says to be a ex gang member who when to prison discovered this killing fighting style gave his life to God and tnow is selling tapes own this Art. to Me this seems like a load of crap but i wanted to now what u guys thought of this so called strongest fighting style ever.

and also, what else is some one from america, (no personal digs at you guys)
going to come out with, is it another means of making money

[TenTigers]

The best part is that he says he's an ex gangbanger who gave his life to God-now he's selling tapes to teach everyone how to kill.
which God?

[jmd161]

You know it's really nothing new, it's just that they're trying to sell it in books and videos now.

I know ppl are going to laugh and joke about this quote


it even whent own to say that all these random kungufu and karate dojos dont work in a real world because they are not for these times.

But, that's alot more true than hype or advertising...

The fact of the matter is, it's called different names in every hood in this country. In New York, it was called "Jail Housing" and no matter how much ppl want to tear it apart, it actually works. It's like the whole Bjj MMA debate, these guys are actually using this in prison. That's not a ring with a ref and corner men to throw in a towel.

I learned a lil back in the 80's from a friend fresh outta prison. It worked when i used it in a real fight, but i wasn't trying to kill anyone either. I don't know how deadly it can be because he only showed me fighting aspects with it. I've heard it has all kind of weapons type skills also, so i don't doubt it could be deadly.

I know alot of that is just hype, but i know from experience it's effective. It's really just different from what i learned from my friend . Alot of the moves were deceptive in nature, so you just never know where the strikes are coming from. It's hard to explain, it's not the be all kill all, but it's different. Once you learn a bit you take away all the mystery behind it.

jeff:)

[TenTigers]

I picked up a smatterring of Jailhouse Rock,(also called,52 handlocks,52 Blocks,Comstock Shuffle, and others) from someone who was inside, and another friend who was a PO at Rikers. Similarities to Kali, with footwork from Capoeira. (uprock in breakdancing came from the jinga in capoeira) lots of elbows, knees, and a real sneaky hook punch that is delivered nose to nose.(btw-when I teach the hook, this is the one I teach) If this is what he is teaching, it might be good stuff to pick up.
Odds are, he is capitalizing on the name. Jailhouse Rock has an unwritten rule-only taught to Blacks. Kind of like Gung-Fu only taught to Chinese. But it's a matter of time.
It's funny, however to see kids on the street using the moves that they saw someone else do who might have learned it. They are doing the shuffle, bringing their elbows up and slapping them-but when they fight, you cansee they don't know how to use it. It's like seeing guys strike a "Kung-Fu Pose" and then flail like a girl.:D

[Forkintheroad]

In the end their really just selling something (their art), I don't mind it because it probobly worked for the inventor and may help a few people out their on their way to being model law breaking citizens. but I do get irritated when they sell their art by trying to discredit those arts that have proven themselves for hundreds of years prior.

[Phil Redmond]

JHR, Comstock, 52 Blocks, etc., is VERY effective. I'm from Brooklyn and have seen it in action many times. You also have to watch out if you're fighting someone and they start calling out numbers. They learn to hide single edge razors in pockets cut into their inner jaw when they're in jail. They can spit one out quickly between their fingers. The numbers called out are a means of intimidation. They are letting you know how many stitches you're going to get after you're slapped across the face of arm with the razor between the fingers. Back in the 70's I used to bring kung fu guys from Chinatown to Brooklyn who said that no street fighter could beat a trained martial artist. They didn't realize that these guys had to train for real on the inside so they won't become bubba's "special" friend or worse. Once they saw the training and some real fights they were convinced. One of the training methods is to stand in a front stance with one heel against a wall. Other inmates will take turns throwing real punches at you and all you can do is block and cover. Ten Tigers was correct. They use lots more creative realistic training methods that are usually only taught to blacks and Latinos.
PR

[Phil Redmond]

I THINK THIS IS REALLY RIDICULOUS . . . . . . . . . and also, what else is some one from america, (no personal digs at you guys)
going to come out with, is it another means of making money
This is nothing new. It has been around at least since the late 40's, maybe longer. Initially it was called Comstock boxing, named after Comstock Prison. Mel Gibson got a little training in Jail Rock (that's what it's called in some circles), for one of the Lethal Weapon movies.
I have an old article showing some of their techinques. It's looks similar to Wing Chun or JKD in some aspects. Lots of knee kicks and elbows. When I find the article I can post it if anyone is interested in seeing some stills of what it looks like.
http://www.geocities.com/delasalas2000/combatives.html
PR

[mysteri]

looks pretty fine to me, but maybe i'm missing what's so special about it? looks like stuff i've learned from my sifu and sihings. but also, my sifu used to be a senior instructor in burmese boxing(bando) and trained muay thai as well before he learned jow ga, but i'm not sure if that's some correlation. also, one of my sihing's(i learn a lot from him) has had enough jail time and the jow ga he learned from my sifu proved to work well for him. maybe i should see more to see somethin "different", or maybe it was jus "new" for the times... anyway, looks fine to me. thanx for sharing.

[Ben Gash]

To be honest, outlook is the more important factor here. The techniques aren't really any different, it's the manner and attitude with which they're applied that makes the difference. Kung fu, Ju Jitsu, Silat etc are all very effective combat systems, but the attitude with which we train doesn't really involve the fear that someones going to come at us with a shiv in the exercise yard.
As for the ad, these ads are pretty common, it seems to be a new one every year, I've seen roman, celtic, norse, special forces and so on, all with a 3 page ad in IKF telling you how a 17year old girl with 6 weeks training beat down a 220lb Ju Jitsu instructor without breaking a sweat after watching the tapes, which can be yours for only $220 for the set and an accompanying book, and how the SEALS are now incorporating it into their training. It's really on a par with "secret Dim Mak" or even "perfect abs in 10 days". It's trading off people's laziness.

[hskwarrior]

i agree based off of the websited posted up that the techniques are nothing a martial artist hasn't seen before.

but what i think is the most important factor here is that these penitentary cats have nothing to lose ---thats jail mentality---so you put the effort into taking out your adversay with no mercy and if i go to jail, so what i'm used to it. not to forget that most everyone who does not have the heart of a tiger get pretty afraid of african american's because they are more aggressive, and this helps in making their style all the more deadly.

i could be totally off track here, but i think there's some truth to it.

hsk

[Phil Redmond]

An excerpt from an old BB article:
http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/52/bb0774.html
PR

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the information Phil, do you think these jail systems are complete in a sense of ground fighting, striking and of course edge weapons?

I didnt know that they had fighting systems in jail, i thought they just trained themselves inside privately of with room mate?!

I like the one leg on the wall training i may give this a try this week.:)

Does it use more fist then palms or other certain hand strikes?

anyone care to add?

regards
Garry

[TenTigers]

from what I have been seen, alot of elbows, guntings,head and hair grabs, with pulling them into the elbows. Like I said, the hook punch is a real short snap. It is done in a motion like when you put on a coat,you kind of shrug your shoulder. We practice this with our head right on the heavybag. Lots of knees,shoves,and footwork from the jinga. There is also a side shuffle that advances in a zig/zag step and is on you like white on rice. There is also a hand motion that is combined with a shuffle whiole moving in and out-hard to describe, but it's like two circular inner blocks, palms forward, that slap down incoming strikes, or go right into traps, and grapples. I think it was mentioned in one of the articles. Might be called "creasing"? not sure of the name.
I didn't learn alot, just bits and peices. Hey, whaddya want from a white boy?

[Dale Dugas]

Nasty fighting is nasty fighting.

Other than the marketing hell that most of these things get, it doesnt seem all that bad.

[TenTigers]

JailHouse Rock is like WuDan,Emei, Hua-Shan, etc. Somebody comes out of te woodwork, does a video or article on something which cannot be substantiated, and makes a killing. It was simply a matter of time.

[TenTigers]

JailHouse Rock is like WuDan,Emei, Hua-Shan, etc. Somebody comes out of te woodwork, does a video or article on something which cannot be substantiated, and makes a killing. It was simply a matter of time. There's a good chance that this guy has never even seen the real deal, and is making a video based on what he has gleaned from the aforementioned articles. You guys are way too trusting.

[fiercest tiger]

Like dale said nasty fighting is nasty fighting, im just interested in hearing the stories how they train. Like what time of day, night , is it secretly taught, do whites have a different style to blacks to the chinese and mexicans etc.

Does anyone have any war stories?

FT

[SimonM]

Training fighting in tight quarters is a good idea. I used to do this all the time back in Canada. My brother and I did knock a few holes in the drywall though...

[Phil Redmond]

JailHouse Rock is like WuDan,Emei, Hua-Shan, etc. Somebody comes out of te woodwork, does a video or article on something which cannot be substantiated, and makes a killing. It was simply a matter of time. There's a good chance that this guy has never even seen the real deal, and is making a video based on what he has gleaned from the aforementioned articles. You guys are way too trusting.
It's possible that the "guy" you're refering to has never seen the real deal but I certainly have. I'm from Brooklyn where many people practice JHR. Just go to Brownsville, Bed Stuy, East New York, or Fort Greene and ask around.
PR

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the information Phil, do you think these jail systems are complete in a sense of ground fighting, striking and of course edge weapons?

I didnt know that they had fighting systems in jail, i thought they just trained themselves inside privately of with room mate?!

I like the one leg on the wall training i may give this a try this week.:)

Does it use more fist then palms or other certain hand strikes?

anyone care to add?

regards
Garry
Some martial arts/fighting styles were developed out of desperation as were some weapons. JHR is no different. OK it doesn't have ancient traditions and colorful history like kung fu but it works. Here is the article I was looking for:
52_1 (http://www.sifupr.com/pics/52_1.jpg)
52_2 (http://www.sifupr.com/pics/52_2.jpg)
52_3 (http://www.sifupr.com/pics/52_3.jpg)
(You'll have to download and zoom in to be able to read the text).
Phil

[SimonM]

Interesting enough article but I still question if there is anything in this that isn't in any good regimen of martial arts... except for the knuckle kissing but I question the efficacy of such showboating.

Now, mind, deceptive tactics, elbow blocking and blitzes, shoulder blocks and a willingness to inflict GBH on somebody are an important part of the fighting mindset and tactics. I just don't see why someone from a background of WC or Hung Gar or whatever couldn't do the same.

There is elbows in Gong Fu. There are headbutts in Gong Fu. There are knees, stomps, throws, kicks, whatever in Gong Fu. Is there a difference?

That being said this is an interesting historical piece on a non-asiatic martial art and highlights a point I was making in another thread: there is NO one source for all martial knowlege. Two simmilar arts could simultaneously appear on opposite sides of the earth while two dissimilar arts could grow up side by side.

[Ou Ji]

It's pretty much the same thing as any other martial art in it's early days.

Every art started with the need to deal with potentially life threatening situations. Most without acccess to weapons.

Give it enough time and it will turn into a non-lethal self defense fighting style just like th rest of them.

[hellhound]

Well... I dont post much however here's my to yuan.

This is not really true. I grew up in the ghetto and sadly due to a bad lawyer I went to prison for a year for protecting the pregnant mother of my child with a crow bar and a box cutter.

99% of the people I knew in the ghettos only put on gloves and did boxing training to the body only. It was kind of like a ghetto past time.

IME 99% of the hand to hand fights/attacks I have been in they are powder puff punchers.

The worst part of prison was not the riot I was in but having to stay in a small room for 2 weeks straight with 2 other men as punishment for it.

This is pretty untrue IME. There is 1% in hand to hand who are viscous and very kamikaze styled (I myself had to be this way and never "put on the gloves" and instead used viscousness and weapons due to my size). Now I study IMA due to disability.

Guns weren't a thing where I was because the laws were tight (although I had a close one in high school as a by-standard). In other cities where it is very easy and cheap to get guns that is usually what is used so when they go to jail the only the to fear is size after lifting trash bags full of water for a year straight. However there is everything from a hot pot to a sharpened/broken toothbrush to take care of that. I have to say if there is any jail based hand to hand style is it to "put on the gloves" on go for body shots IME.

Now luckily I am a software engineer going on 11 years doing so and a 8 year old daughter and a 4 year old son (they practice XMA). Unluckily I am disabled now due to chronic pain and have to live on Morphine. However my children keep me going at it in work and work-outs.

Hope this helps and did not stray too off topic. Regards!

[Phil Redmond]

Interesting enough article but I still question if there is anything in this that isn't in any good regimen of martial arts... except for the knuckle kissing but I question the efficacy of such showboating.

Now, mind, deceptive tactics, elbow blocking and blitzes, shoulder blocks and a willingness to inflict GBH on somebody are an important part of the fighting mindset and tactics. I just don't see why someone from a background of WC or Hung Gar or whatever couldn't do the same.

There is elbows in Gong Fu. There are headbutts in Gong Fu. There are knees, stomps, throws, kicks, whatever in Gong Fu. Is there a difference?

That being said this is an interesting historical piece on a non-asiatic martial art and highlights a point I was making in another thread: there is NO one source for all martial knowlege. Two simmilar arts could simultaneously appear on opposite sides of the earth while two dissimilar arts could grow up side by side.Very interesting point of view. I've actually seen someone use the knuckle kiss and the throw the fist back into the other person's face. It's a psychological and showboat tactic.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

Well... I dont post much however here's my to yuan.

This is not really true. I grew up in the ghetto and sadly due to a bad lawyer I went to prison for a year for protecting the pregnant mother of my child with a crow bar and a box cutter.

99% of the people I knew in the ghettos only put on gloves and did boxing training to the body only. It was kind of like a ghetto past time. . . . . .
It is true about people from Rikers Island. Two of my kung fu brothers were on the emergency response team in Rikers. Besides from seeing JHR in the streets of Brooklyn the practice of it in jail was aslo confirmed my by friends who were COs on Rikers. Maybe it wasn't praticed where you were but it DOES exist in NYC. Did you see guys spit single edge razor blades in between their fingers so they could slice your face and arms where you were. I've seen my stepson from a former marriage who was in prison demonstrate this skill to me.
Phil

[TenTigers]

Like I mentioned before, I have a friend from Rikers who showed me some, it definately is alive and well in NYC. This other guy spoke about Mother Dear, and the kiss thing, and this was way before the article came out, so I suppose he wasn't full of it.(BTW-he did NOT say he met him, just heard about him) I saw one kid not only spit it, but flip it around in his mouth. For the life of me I have no idea how one would even start learning that skill, but I do admit, it definately freaked me out a bit at the time. I suppose it would be a real mess if someone grabbed his face and gave it a good squeeze.

[Ou Ji]

Can't say that I've ever seen it but I spent a good amount of time on the streets of Jersey in the early 70's, have friends that did time and my first MA teacher was from the streets of Brooklyn. I don't recall who or where but I do remember hearing about Mother.

Unfortunately the street life has dulled my memory and a lot of it is vague and it was a long time ago. Seems like another life completely. I did pick up some good stuff from some of those guys. My early streetfighting skills came partially from ex-cons.

[SimonM]

Very interesting point of view. I've actually seen someone use the knuckle kiss and the throw the fist back into the other person's face. It's a psychological and showboat tactic.
Phil


I don't put much stock by showboating. ;)
My Sifu drilled us hard on bread and butter. You are an advanced student? That doesn't mean you stop practicing jabs, that means you practice them twice as much. This eventually lead to me having a rather workmanlike opinion about practical fighting.

However I do recognize that psychological tactics can be important in a fight... I've gotten pretty good at looming menacingly for that very reason. ;)

[TenTigers]

Oui Ji-if you've ever seen guys squaring off in the streets, doing a shuffle and slapping their elbows-looks like an upward elbow strike while slapping with the other hand,you have either seen it, or are watching someone who saw someone, who saw someone...most people have seen that move and try to front. And once they get to bangin, it all goes out the window.
The weird thing is, one of the moves in "creasing" I have also seen in Buk Sing CLF. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, there are many traditional Chinese, Philippino, as well as capoeira techniques in JHR. Jail is like Shaolin. People come in, and skills that they have aquired on the outside get absorbed into the system.

[Ou Ji]

I think the reference to Mother Dear came from a guy I hung with named Joe [edit]. He did his time in NY, manslaughter I think. He never told me and I never asked. May have been Rikers. He was the oldest of 3 brothers and they were all pretty tough fighters. I think all 3 had done some time.

Most likely he just copied what he saw since it pretty much stayed within the black community. He OD'd years ago.

All these guys were older than me and they would always say don't worry about this or that just do this and then show me something. Nothing fancy, just basic brawling. Tips on fighting with a belt and stuff like that. Some improvised weapons.

There was some discussion awhile back about 52 Blocks and when I read the linked article that mentioned Mother it creeped me out. That's when I remembered hearing stuff back in those days.

[Phil Redmond]

Well, I'm glad that TenTigers and Ou Ji are familiar with JHR. It seemed like I was all alone there for a while :D
Phil

[TenTigers]

yeah, I got friends in low places.:cool:

[Phil Redmond]

yeah, I got friends in low places.:cool:
Most martial artists do. BTW, that's a good song . . . :D
Phil

[SimonM]

I've got friends in low places but they are mostly white and they are all in Canada so it's dubious that any of them know bupkiss about JHR.

To be blunt I could put the damage on most of my more dubious acquaintances...

[Phil Redmond]

I've got friends in low places but they are mostly white and they are all in Canada so it's dubious that any of them know bupkiss about JHR.

To be blunt I could put the damage on most of my more dubious acquaintances...
I know some pretty tough cats in Windsor, Chatham, Brampton, Scarborough and around Jane and Finch in T.O. ;)
Phil

[SimonM]

Well the T-dot locations don't surprise me. And Windsor is a border town but I'm from London.

The underworld in London is rather laughable.

[SevenStar]

Like dale said nasty fighting is nasty fighting, im just interested in hearing the stories how they train. Like what time of day, night , is it secretly taught, do whites have a different style to blacks to the chinese and mexicans etc.

Does anyone have any war stories?

FT

from what my acquaintance tells me about it, it is not taught to anyone that is not black. There are regional differences, but still only taught to blacks. I thought I had posted on this already, but I guess not... it must be on a karateforums or somewhere. I'll look for it.

[SevenStar]

here it is. I've got a few posts there. I am 'elbows_and_knees'

http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=23920&start=10

[Phil Redmond]

here it is. I've got a few posts there. I am 'elbows_and_knees'

http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=23920&start=10

Thanks for that link SevenStar. It lead me to this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jailhouse_rock
I just remembered seeing a documentary about hidden slave fighting styles like cutting and knocking and kicking.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

Well the T-dot locations don't surprise me. And Windsor is a border town but I'm from London.

The underworld in London is rather laughable.
T-dot's a like a little NYC. I'm there often. My student has a school there
http://www.torontowingchun.com
I don't know much about London. I only passed through there a few times. It looks like a cool city. Windsor isn't much different from Detroit. Chatham will shock you though. For a small town there are some hardcore bangers there.
Phil

[TenTigers]

ya mean like Bangers and mash? Now yer makin me hungry!

[SimonM]

T-dot's a like a little NYC. I'm there often. My student has a school there
http://www.torontowingchun.com
I don't know much about London. I only passed through there a few times. It looks like a cool city. Windsor isn't much different from Detroit. Chatham will shock you though. For a small town there are some hardcore bangers there.
Phil

If you are ever in London swing by Northern Black Dragon Martial arts. Tell 'em Simon sent you. ;)

[SevenStar]

Thanks for that link SevenStar. It lead me to this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jailhouse_rock
I just remembered seeing a documentary about hidden slave fighting styles like cutting and knocking and kicking.
Phil


knocking and kicking was an old style that consisted of mainly headbutts. These days, I've heard of a JHR variation that is called knocking and kicking.

[hellhound]

I did time for a 2nd degree assualt with a deadly weapon and was housed with the violent criminals because of my violent crime (protected pregnant mother of my child, bad lawyer, now I am a father of 2 and a highly paid software engineer so even bad kids can grow up to be good adults if they try). That and 99% of my freinds and associates did a good amount of time there too. How come I have never heard of this. It must be a rather rare thing being that everyone I know including myself has spent time in the house of pain and never heard of it. It may exist but it is far from common and I don't think it's a matter of only teaching minorities they just don't teach country white boys. About the only thing we ever did was throw on the gloves and go for only body shots using boxing techniques. It is kind of like a ghetto past time. However this **** from the 40s has never crossed my well traveled eyes before. The fact that it is probably so **** old is the reason why I've never scene it. The only thing any of us had an interest in that was old was KF. I figure it is a waste of time being that every prisoner I met while there and not there didn't know it and I handled myself very well in the prison riot that occured (the 2 week lockdown in a cell with 2 other men as punishment was worse than the riot) without it and so did many other people. Sorry but this OG is going to have to go with the hype theory. In jail or in the ghetto it's more about the mind than the techniques. As long as you have that killer instinct you will survive prison and the ghetto very well. Not some jail house rock bull. Peace out!

[Phil Redmond]

I did time for a 2nd degree assualt with a deadly weapon and was housed with the violent criminals because of my violent crime (protected pregnant mother of my child, bad lawyer, now I am a father of 2 and a highly paid software engineer so even bad kids can grow up to be good adults if they try). That and 99% of my freinds and associates did a good amount of time there too. How come I have never heard of this. It must be a rather rare thing being that everyone I know including myself has spent time in the house of pain and never heard of it. It may exist but it is far from common and I don't think it's a matter of only teaching minorities they just don't teach country white boys. About the only thing we ever did was throw on the gloves and go for only body shots using boxing techniques. It is kind of like a ghetto past time. However this **** from the 40s has never crossed my well traveled eyes before. The fact that it is probably so **** old is the reason why I've never scene it. The only thing any of us had an interest in that was old was KF. I figure it is a waste of time being that every prisoner I met while there and not there didn't know it and I handled myself very well in the prison riot that occured (the 2 week lockdown in a cell with 2 other men as punishment was worse than the riot) without it and so did many other people. Sorry but this OG is going to have to go with the hype theory. In jail or in the ghetto it's more about the mind than the techniques. As long as you have that killer instinct you will survive prison and the ghetto very well. Not some jail house rock bull. Peace out!
Were you in jail in NYC? You seem sceptical which I can understand since you've never seen JHR. Maybe it's mostly a NYC thing. I personally have seen it and know many of my CO (correction officer) friends have seen it. I know it to be real. Like I said before It's common knowledge in the 'hoods' in NYC. I was first exposed to it in the 70's. Fight would start and guys would say break the four. Whc\ich is a hand position used sometimes. I lived in ENY, Brownsville, Bed Stuy, and Ft. Greene. Anyone here from B'klyn know where these place are.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

I did time for a 2nd degree assualt with a deadly weapon and was housed with the violent criminals because of my violent crime (protected pregnant mother of my child, bad lawyer, now I am a father of 2 and a highly paid software engineer so even bad kids can grow up to be good adults if they try). That and 99% of my freinds and associates did a good amount of time there too. How come I have never heard of this. It must be a rather rare thing being that everyone I know including myself has spent time in the house of pain and never heard of it. It may exist but it is far from common and I don't think it's a matter of only teaching minorities they just don't teach country white boys. About the only thing we ever did was throw on the gloves and go for only body shots using boxing techniques. It is kind of like a ghetto past time. However this **** from the 40s has never crossed my well traveled eyes before. The fact that it is probably so **** old is the reason why I've never scene it. The only thing any of us had an interest in that was old was KF. I figure it is a waste of time being that every prisoner I met while there and not there didn't know it and I handled myself very well in the prison riot that occured (the 2 week lockdown in a cell with 2 other men as punishment was worse than the riot) without it and so did many other people. Sorry but this OG is going to have to go with the hype theory. In jail or in the ghetto it's more about the mind than the techniques. As long as you have that killer instinct you will survive prison and the ghetto very well. Not some jail house rock bull. Peace out!
Were you in jail in NYC? You seem sceptical which I can understand since you've never seen JHR. Maybe it's mostly a NYC thing. I personally have seen it and know many of my CO (correction officer) friends have seen it. I know it to be real. Like I said before It's common knowledge in the 'hoods' in NYC. I was first exposed to it in the 70's. Fight would start and guys would say break the four. Whc\ich is a hand position used sometimes. I lived in ENY, Brownsville, Bed Stuy, and Ft. Greene. Anyone here from B'klyn knows where these place are and know what type of neighborhoods they are. JHR is live and doing well in the 'hood'
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

I did time for a 2nd degree assualt with a deadly weapon and was housed with the violent criminals because of my violent crime (protected pregnant mother of my child, bad lawyer, now I am a father of 2 and a highly paid software engineer so even bad kids can grow up to be good adults if they try). That and 99% of my freinds and associates did a good amount of time there too. How come I have never heard of this. It must be a rather rare thing being that everyone I know including myself has spent time in the house of pain and never heard of it. It may exist but it is far from common and I don't think it's a matter of only teaching minorities they just don't teach country white boys. About the only thing we ever did was throw on the gloves and go for only body shots using boxing techniques. It is kind of like a ghetto past time. However this **** from the 40s has never crossed my well traveled eyes before. The fact that it is probably so **** old is the reason why I've never scene it. The only thing any of us had an interest in that was old was KF. I figure it is a waste of time being that every prisoner I met while there and not there didn't know it and I handled myself very well in the prison riot that occured (the 2 week lockdown in a cell with 2 other men as punishment was worse than the riot) without it and so did many other people. Sorry but this OG is going to have to go with the hype theory. In jail or in the ghetto it's more about the mind than the techniques. As long as you have that killer instinct you will survive prison and the ghetto very well. Not some jail house rock bull. Peace out!
Were you in jail in NYC? You seem sceptical which I can understand since you've never seen JHR. Maybe it's mostly a NYC thing. I personally have seen it and know many of my CO (correction officer) friends have seen it. I know it to be real. Like I said before It's common knowledge in the 'hoods' in NYC. I was first exposed to it in the 70's. Fight would start and guys would say break the four. Which is a hand position used sometimes. I lived in ENY, Brownsville, Bed Stuy, and Ft. Greene. Anyone here from B'klyn knows where these place are and know what type of neighborhoods they are. JHR is live and doing well in the 'hood'
Phil

[hellhound]

I would have to say you'd have to kill ne before I'd hang out with some CO who only does things with numbers, clubs and mace. They don't really use hand to hand in the prisons I was in.

My friend did time in Rikers and other NYC prisons for carrying close to a kg of cocaine. He has not heard anything like that.

Maybe it really is only taught to blacks as he is hispanic and 90% of my other friends are hispanic. The other 10% that included blacks were more people I knew from people I hung out with.

Oh well,,, not imprtant either way. It's your mind that counts. Any decent set of techniques will work. There is nothing special about that system, only the mind set of the people using it.

[Eddie]

hey danmayete, where are you from?

i know some pretty cool african arts. what are you practicing?

[SimonM]

JHR is one of three martial arts cited in the credits to Lethal Weapon 1.

The other two are BJJ and Capoeira.

No point, just saw this the other day and thought I'd throw it out there.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . This is the core. The African arts are numerous, however, and owe nothing to anything foreign (non-African, as is sometimes erroneously asserted by those ignorant of these traditions).
Historically the oldest recorded martial arts were Egyptian, then Indian, then Chinese and so on. . . (I read this in one of the late Mas Oyama's books so I did my research). I have a copy of a documentary from the Canadian History Channel that show the ancient Indian Ma called Kalaripayatu (sp)? It from the same area where Damo was from. From watching their forms you can see where Shaolin MA comes from.
Phil

[SimonM]

Mas Oyama's work was mainly an attempt to prove that JJJ had the longest lineage of any martial art. I tend to disagree with it because it is predicated on the hypothesis of a single origin point for maritial arts and I don't subscribe to this hypothesis.

The two single origin theories are both derived from the Oyama work. One is that martial arts were invented in Africa, traveled to India and were then propagated to China by Bodidharma. The second is that martial arts were invented in Greece, traveled to India with Alexander the Great and were then propagated into China.

The Alexander the Great theory is laughable. There was already quite effective fighters in Afghanistan and India when Alexander got there. If there were not he probably would have kept on going until he had conquered the whole of Asia. Alexander is just too late to really matter and with the mountains and arid plains of Iran and Afghanistan there was little contact between the civilizations of Europe and Asia major prior to him (there was plenty of contact between the persian empire, other middle eastern cultures and Europe).

There were likely Africans in India long before Alexander. However the African origin of CMA (or for that matter the Indian origin of CMA) theories both are predicated on assigning Bodidharma as the founder of Chinese Martial Arts. This is despite the fact that there was wrestling in Mongolia about 2500 years prior to that. Also there are several Han Chinese martial arts which do not hold Shaolin Temple as their point of origin and which probably predated the temple (in some form). You also have to consider that part of the reason that Shaolin became the "origin" point for so many martial arts is because it became a place where martial artists congregated and traded techniques. Many martial artists who had been educated in "non-shaolin" styles would, after a stint in the temple, emerge with a new form. And since they were often Shaolin monks or disciples these forms would be labled as Shaolin.

In addition Kalariapayattu and traditional Shaolin Five Animal Gong Fu (one of the most significant of the "Shaolin" styles and the one that was the basis of many southern Gong Fu styles such as Wing Chun and Hung Gar) are quite different in appearance and technique. Now this is less important since Bodidharma was a couple thousand years ago and there has been plenty of time for divergence, no martial art remains static for even 100 years let alone 1000, but it still does not bode well for Oyama's theory.

I am sorry that this diverges a bit off-topic from talking about JHR, 51 blocks or whatever other name these underground prison styles go by but this particular piece of historical misinformation is one that always bothers me and it has become increasingly popular of late despite the fact that there is no solid evidence to support it.

[Phil Redmond]

Very good points. The probability of the simulteanous developement of martial arts by many different ethnicities world wide is very great.
Phil

[SimonM]

If you are talking about the doccumentary "Fighting Arts" I was particularly amused when the Guru tried to perform the secret pressure point technique on the host and it didn't work in the slightest so he quickly said "well it sometimes doesn't work on women".

[Phil Redmond]

If you are talking about the doccumentary "Fighting Arts" I was particularly amused when the Guru tried to perform the secret pressure point technique on the host and it didn't work in the slightest so he quickly said "well it sometimes doesn't work on women".
It was called "Deadly Arts". A female aikido Black Belt from Quebec was the host. She travelled to India, Okinawa, Brazil, Thailand, Japan, and France to find martial artists. It was a six part series and I have them all on tape.
Phil

[SimonM]

Yeah, that's the one. My bro and I used to watch that before I headed out to university in the morning. I never did get to see the one in Okinawa though...

That series increased my respect for MT quite a bit. It also reduced my respect for Aikido due to the brashly compliant training techniques it showed.

[Buby]

Were you in jail in NYC? You seem sceptical which I can understand since you've never seen JHR. Maybe it's mostly a NYC thing. I personally have seen it and know many of my CO (correction officer) friends have seen it. I know it to be real. Like I said before It's common knowledge in the 'hoods' in NYC. I was first exposed to it in the 70's. Fight would start and guys would say break the four. Whc\ich is a hand position used sometimes. I lived in ENY, Brownsville, Bed Stuy, and Ft. Greene. Anyone here from B'klyn know where these place are.
Phil


Phil speaks the truth. Hellhound come to Bk. In any of the hoods that Phil just mentioned and you'll see little kids doing moves that they see their older brothers or uncles that have done time do. My uncle learned from the Pebbles family and another friends like Lopez. But Lopez was also trained in boxing and Perry Pebbles (god rest his soul) was a black belt in karate, both crazy nasty with their hands. As a matter of fact my man Calvin (a Pebbles) dropped a pro boxer in (I think it was) Gleasons gym. I can't remember the boxer cause it was a while ago, but I'll ask my uncle.

There is a DVD called Felony Fights thats has an Africa American gentleman that uses JHR to knock his opponent out. Shuffles then drops a nasty rear overhand.LOLOL

TT:

I know of the short hook your talking about. I was taught to do it as a short overhand hook. 9 times out of 10 your opponent never sees it coming. It is a sweet move.

I never knew it as JHR, just as this is how they fight in jail.LOLOLOL Man I was mad young and I thought I was learning boxing.LOLOLOL When I hit my teens was when I learned about the whole jail thing.

Sifu:

I'll send you the DVD(Felony Fights) and a demo of the back on wall training. Lou has that down sweet. He incorporates some of these moves in his DTM, so its like I learned it from sources. Lou also got some of his from the Pebbles.

Peace,

Jail House Buby..LOLOLOLOL Ala YKM Style!!LOLOLolol

[hellhound]

I am not doubting it exists anymore. I am just starting to think this is really a black only art since the only people I knew well were hispanic. That and I am still stumped as to why someone like me or my friends have heard of it. Maybe I'll go and actually ask my cousin who did 3 years in various NY and NYC jails as I see him often since his Ford Expedition is on my insurance policy. I figure he would of mentioned it being that I study MA however it may have not crossed his mind to tell me about it. I'll be sure to let you know what he says. That way we at least have a hispanic who did years of time in Rikers and other NY and NYC jails. I have a feeling he just may know about it and never mentioned it. We'll see I guess.

Regards and have a great weekend!

[hellhound]

I have spoken with my cousin who did time in Rikers and other NYC/NY jails over a 3 year period. He says he has never heard of it which means either it does not exist or they really do only teach/speak of it to blacks since he and a majority of everyone I know and did time with (well... payed any attention to when I did my time) is hispanic. I am going with the it does exist but only for african americans and is not to ricans and the likes. You boys have fun then with your little jailhouse rock (almost sounds cute). While us other minorities use our good plain ol' fighting experience.

[Eddie]

even accupuncture is believed to come from africa, but it doesnt make it more effective does it?

africa really is that dark weird place you see on tv, just seem to me often that allot of African Americans have way to many romantic ideas about this place.

If you are interested in African fighting, do a search on " Piper system". You wont really know what they talk about unless you have experience it yourself. Africa is a weird weird place .

mayete is a typical southern african name. do you know where about your family comes from?

[danmyete]

:confused:

What are you talking about? I was pointing out what signatures mark it as African. What fantasy am I having about Africa. I could also say that Europeans have far too many fantasies about their history and place in world history. For example, you classify yourself as "African," but you are not indigenous to the continent. You are a Boer whose Ancestors came from the Netherlands. Your phenotype was shaped in Europe, not Africa. It is a fantasy to call yourself an African as rightfully do the Amazulu, Thri-Venda, Ba-Pede, Kung! and San, et al.

I have no weird concept about Africa, and truly do not undertand what you are calling wierd...

Where did I say my name is Mayete.? My Amazulu name is Umuzi. I do not need your help in that regard. I am a researcher/practitioner of African combatives with over twenty years research on the subject. As regards African combatives, I doubt you have as much knowledge as do I on this subject. Unless you have something more contructive to offer, other than this baseless commentary, I do not see the point you are (rather rudely, IMO) attempting to make.

[Ou Ji]

Yeah Eddie, you d amn white guy you. How dare you call yourself African. Just because you were born and live there.

It's like blacks born and living in the USA saying thay are Americans.

Oh wait, they ARE Americans. :)

Hmm, someone could be overracting here.

Nah, not on an online forum. Never.:p

[SimonM]

I have a white South African living on the floor below me. Nice lady, really liked Nelson Mandela. Also (ancestry wise) as British as the day is long. Not a hint of boer in her ancestry.

Don't make assumptions about people if you don't know for sure.

And a gong fu forum may not be the best place to make shots about a random person's national self-identity. Rather out of place.

[Phil Redmond]

I have spoken with my cousin who did time in Rikers and other NYC/NY jails over a 3 year period. He says he has never heard of it which means either it does not exist or they really do only teach/speak of it to blacks since he and a majority of everyone I know and did time with (well... payed any attention to when I did my time) is hispanic. I am going with the it does exist but only for african americans and is not to ricans and the likes. You boys have fun then with your little jailhouse rock (almost sounds cute). While us other minorities use our good plain ol' fighting experience.
"(almost sounds cute)" ?
Hmmm, that sounds a little condescending. I travel back east twice a year. I'll see if I can look up some people in Brooklyn that do JHR and I take a few clips to show you. I also know a Boricua that does JHR. He's an old friend from Ft. Greene, Brooklyn.
Phil

[hellhound]

I am not doubting it exists. I did say "I am going with the it does exist but only for african americans and is not to ricans and the likes". Are any of the people you are talking about not black?

[danmyete]

Greetings,

If memory serves me correctly (if not, I stand corrected), Eddie has said that his Ancestors arrived centuries prior to the British (in what is now S.A.). The majority of Europeans to have arrived there as such were the Dutch Ancestors of the Boers. If correct, that would make "Eddie" a descendant of the Boers.

"America" is a nation, and to be "American" is to be defined by "nationality," not ancestry. Thus, we have Chinese-Americans, AFRICAN-Americans, etc.

To be African defines not just a geograghical location (it does not define a nationality since it is not a NATION) but ancestry, just as to be European defines such (geograghical location and ancestry, not nationality).

My later critique of Eddie was in direct response to his assumptions about me relative to supposed African-American fantasies about Africa. I would like for him to point these out. Eddie should have focused more on the topic, and less on being a wiseguy. I never launched any attacks on Eddie personally. If anything, I merely attempted to refute what I considered distorted/erroneous information. It is Eddie, IMO, who launched the first Salvo.

One should not dish out what one does not wish to take. Perhaps we can get back to the subject(s): the origins of JHR in the African-American community among these.

[Buby]

I am not doubting it exists. I did say "I am going with the it does exist but only for african americans and is not to ricans and the likes". Are any of the people you are talking about not black?


Hi hellhound.

Yes! Lopez(Puerto Rican), my uncle (Puerto Rican), and Luis (Puerto Rican). They did not learn it in jail. They learned from a friend (African American) who had at the time just gotten out of jail. This friend later added his karate to it. My friend Lopez mixed his with his western boxing. My uncle learned both versions and showed me some, but it was many years ago so I'm not smooth with mine.LOLOLOL JHR is really no secret anymore. Every kid in the hood atleast in NYC comes across it sometime in their life. Be it playing with a friend from the P's or actually learning it from someone in your crew. It kinda looks like up rock(the dance).LOLOLOL

Try to get your hands on Felony Fights. It's a DVD that showcases ex-cons thumping it out. This African American gentleman drops this (I think) Latino or Caucasion on his @ss using JHR. He was smooth with his!LOLOLOL

Take care,

Buby

[Eddie]

Sheesh Dan, I didn’t mean for you to get so agro over this. I never insulted you, I also didn’t mean to seem like a wise ass, I just commented on something I think I know a little of. Its not something I googled or found info on at wikipedia either. :cool:



For example, you classify yourself as "African," but you are not indigenous to the continent. You are a Boer whose Ancestors came from the Netherlands. Your phenotype was shaped in Europe, not Africa. It is a fantasy to call yourself an African as rightfully do the Amazulu, Thri-Venda, Ba-Pede, Kung! and San, et al.


Dan, the word “ Boer” is really a racist comment, typical to how you would see the word “******”. I’m not sure where you got that from, and Im not sure if that was your intention, but just so you know. I wont go and take offence to that either, stuff like that really don’t phase me much.

Because I’m white that means I’m not African?:eek: So all Americans are not Americans just because their Ancestors came from Europe too? That’s a ridiculous statement, and not a very mature one either. My native home language is an African Language. Its not spoken anywhere else in the world, it was created here and it is spoken down here. By blacks, by coloureds (what we call people with both black and white ancestry) and by white people. Actually, my language is called Afrikaans (in my language Africa is Afrika) and they call my “people” “Afrikaners”, which means Africans. But arguing about this with someone who doesn’t come from here, is silly really. You really don’t know anything about this place, or its people.



It is a fantasy to call yourself an African as rightfully do the Amazulu, Thri-Venda, Ba-Pede, Kung! and San, et al.


Yep, it’s a fantasy. Just as it is a fantasy to call my self European. I cant even trace my family tree back (with certainty) for more than about 5 generations, so in the same way it would be ridiculous for me to even call myself European then, right? Funny, really. Are you African, or are you American? By your definition then, you have little right to claim either, really. We seem to be in the same boat then. Can we swap sides? :D I’d love to live in the states…
:cool:


I have no weird concept about Africa, and truly do not understand what you are calling wierd...

I see what allot of people are trying to sell as African, which is not even close to that. Culture, art, religion, whatever. That’s really what that comment of mine was based on. I also didn’t direct it at you, just in general. I stick to that. You really have no idea what Africa is all about.



Where did I say my name is Mayete.? My Amazulu name is Umuzi. I do not need your help in that regard.

I do apologize, I took your nickname for your real name. Mayete is a common Sotho Name. Just for interest sake, in Zulu, Umuzi means “ House”. ;)



I am a researcher/practitioner of African combatives with over twenty years research on the subject. As regards African combatives, I doubt you have as much knowledge as do I on this subject. Unless you have something more contructive to offer, other than this baseless commentary, I do not see the point you are (rather rudely, IMO) attempting to make


I am a native to Africa. I have close to 31 years of PRACTICAL life experience in Africa, and African culture. I have been in quit a few fights with “Africans”, I have been stabbed by “Africans”, I have been held up with an AK 47 by “Africans”, I have cried with “ Africans” and I have laughed with “ Africans”. I deal with “Africans” every single day of my life. One of my best friends is a black South African. We are pretty close, and have gone through allot of things together. He is from a long line of Swazi Warrior family, and we share allot of things about martial arts. He is actually sitting here with me as I am typing, and he is laughing and making fun of me for this whole entire post, and your reply. My other Kung Fu training partner is Sotho (he is even related to one of the big opposition Politicians). He’s also done Xhosa stick fighting, Capoeira, and other "African" fighting arts, and we share allot of ideas about that too. Down here, in just about all of the native black cultures, all boys must go through initiation school. It is there where they all learn the finer things about their culture and ways. They also learn how to be a warrior and how to fight. A man is not a man, if he cannot fight. Fortunatly, being a white guy, I did not go through initiation school as them, but for the past 30 years I have lived closely together with people who has. We grew up together, and we lived and live along side each other. Closer than you can ever imagine. Most importantly, I see their culture and their way of doing things, every single day. We have also borrowed from each other’s cultures and ways over the last few centuries. So, I might not have allot of knowledge about this as you do, but I do still think I am qualified enough to comment, hence my replies.

I wasn’t even close to being a wise ass as you stated. I commented on the validity of African arts, and how allot of non Africans view African combat arts. When I say Non Africans, I include “ African Americans” (unless of course you actually lived in Africa like a Real African ). I did not question your knowledge of the art, I just stated my opinion that I think most of what is being sold as African, is clearly not.



To be African defines not just a geograghical location (it does not define a nationality since it is not a NATION) but ancestry, just as to be European defines such (geograghical location and ancestry, not nationality).

Sorry, but that is probably the biggest bunch of nonsense I have ever read. But even so, my ancestors are also from Africa, somewhere along the lines they came from Europe, but the only ones I know of, all came from down here. Anthropologists also seem to be thinking that the San people were also not as pure as we think. There are actually some historians that think the Chinese and Indians were the first foreigners to visit this continent. The San people do have some Chinese features if you look closely. They also have Portuguese blood too. And Dutch. Oh yeah, and while on the subject, they speak the same language as I do. Just about all of the “ Bushmen” (what we call the Koi san people) actually speak our language much better than I do.



One should not dish out what one does not wish to take.

Now there we speak the same language. Typical African thing to say. I can take just as much as I can dish, but I didnt eve start to dish out.

I will make a new post just below this one, where I will explain African arts and how I see it. Will even try to get a “ Real” African with knowledge on this matter to post here (maybe by the weekend). Hopefully by the time you get to read this, I would have posted it (its business hours now and i have to work too)

I recommended you look into a system called – the Piper system. If you want to know what real African Arts are all about, that would be a good place to start.

[SevenStar]

just seem to me often that allot of African Americans have way to many romantic ideas about this place.

I disagree with that.


If you are interested in African fighting, do a search on " Piper system". You wont really know what they talk about unless you have experience it yourself. Africa is a weird weird place .

I've mentioned piper before - can't remember if it was here or on karateforums though.
[/QUOTE]

[hellhound]

Hi hellhound.

Yes! Lopez(Puerto Rican), my uncle (Puerto Rican), and Luis (Puerto Rican). They did not learn it in jail. They learned from a friend (African American) who had at the time just gotten out of jail. This friend later added his karate to it. My friend Lopez mixed his with his western boxing. My uncle learned both versions and showed me some, but it was many years ago so I'm not smooth with mine.LOLOLOL JHR is really no secret anymore. Every kid in the hood atleast in NYC comes across it sometime in their life. Be it playing with a friend from the P's or actually learning it from someone in your crew. It kinda looks like up rock(the dance).LOLOLOL

Try to get your hands on Felony Fights. It's a DVD that showcases ex-cons thumping it out. This African American gentleman drops this (I think) Latino or Caucasion on his @ss using JHR. He was smooth with his!LOLOLOL

Take care,

Buby

I was thinking that if there was this much popularity it may just be a NYC thing if hisoanics are doing it too. Since my cousin never heard of it he probably just needed to ask and would of at least seen it. I still din't like the JHR name and think you should stick with the 52 blocks/strikes. Things brings up a question though, I've read Muslims use numerology. At the least 5 percenters do, so does anyone know if the 52 is an important Muslim numerology value? I think it would be interesting to know that. Well.. all techniques are good if practiced properly so I am kinda proud of the african-americans cames up with such a system in a time like the 1940s. However that is prrobably the time they need it the most. I think I will pass on the DVD though. I've seen enough of those situations in real life to last me 10 life times. So it would be a waste of time for me. Sadly, as stated I was put in jail for protecting (box cutter, I'm small znd he was big) the mother to be of my child and got a public defender so I ended having to do time and been through the whole prison riot down to getting beat in the back of a police car with a maglite at 12 and about 70 pounds. I'll stick with the far from reality crouching tiger stuff. Thanks you though for the suggestion. I am sure there are a bunch of meat head friends of mine who would most likely want to see it. Regards!

[SevenStar]

Sheesh Dan, I didn’t mean for you to get so agro over this. I never insulted you, I also didn’t mean to seem like a wise ass, I just commented on something I think I know a little of. Its not something I googled or found info on at wikipedia either. :cool:



Dan, the word “ Boer” is really a racist comment, typical to how you would see the word “******”. I’m not sure where you got that from, and Im not sure if that was your intention, but just so you know. I wont go and take offence to that either, stuff like that really don’t phase me much.

Because I’m white that means I’m not African?:eek: So all Americans are not Americans just because their Ancestors came from Europe too? That’s a ridiculous statement, and not a very mature one either. My native home language is an African Language. Its not spoken anywhere else in the world, it was created here and it is spoken down here. By blacks, by coloureds (what we call people with both black and white ancestry) and by white people. Actually, my language is called Afrikaans (in my language Africa is Afrika) and they call my “people” “Afrikaners”, which means Africans. But arguing about this with someone who doesn’t come from here, is silly really. You really don’t know anything about this place, or its people.



Yep, it’s a fantasy. Just as it is a fantasy to call my self European. I cant even trace my family tree back (with certainty) for more than about 5 generations, so in the same way it would be ridiculous for me to even call myself European then, right? Funny, really. Are you African, or are you American? By your definition then, you have little right to claim either, really. We seem to be in the same boat then. Can we swap sides? :D I’d love to live in the states…
:cool:

I see what allot of people are trying to sell as African, which is not even close to that. Culture, art, religion, whatever. That’s really what that comment of mine was based on. I also didn’t direct it at you, just in general. I stick to that. You really have no idea what Africa is all about.



I do apologize, I took your nickname for your real name. Mayete is a common Sotho Name. Just for interest sake, in Zulu, Umuzi means “ House”. ;)



I am a native to Africa. I have close to 31 years of PRACTICAL life experience in Africa, and African culture. I have been in quit a few fights with “Africans”, I have been stabbed by “Africans”, I have been held up with an AK 47 by “Africans”, I have cried with “ Africans” and I have laughed with “ Africans”. I deal with “Africans” every single day of my life. One of my best friends is a black South African. We are pretty close, and have gone through allot of things together. He is from a long line of Swazi Warrior family, and we share allot of things about martial arts. He is actually sitting here with me as I am typing, and he is laughing and making fun of me for this whole entire post, and your reply. My other Kung Fu training partner is Sotho (he is even related to one of the big opposition Politicians). He’s also done Xhosa stick fighting, Capoeira, and other "African" fighting arts, and we share allot of ideas about that too. Down here, in just about all of the native black cultures, all boys must go through initiation school. It is there where they all learn the finer things about their culture and ways. They also learn how to be a warrior and how to fight. A man is not a man, if he cannot fight. Fortunatly, being a white guy, I did not go through initiation school as them, but for the past 30 years I have lived closely together with people who has. We grew up together, and we lived and live along side each other. Closer than you can ever imagine. Most importantly, I see their culture and their way of doing things, every single day. We have also borrowed from each other’s cultures and ways over the last few centuries. So, I might not have allot of knowledge about this as you do, but I do still think I am qualified enough to comment, hence my replies.

I wasn’t even close to being a wise ass as you stated. I commented on the validity of African arts, and how allot of non Africans view African combat arts. When I say Non Africans, I include “ African Americans” (unless of course you actually lived in Africa like a Real African ). I did not question your knowledge of the art, I just stated my opinion that I think most of what is being sold as African, is clearly not.



Sorry, but that is probably the biggest bunch of nonsense I have ever read. But even so, my ancestors are also from Africa, somewhere along the lines they came from Europe, but the only ones I know of, all came from down here. Anthropologists also seem to be thinking that the San people were also not as pure as we think. There are actually some historians that think the Chinese and Indians were the first foreigners to visit this continent. The San people do have some Chinese features if you look closely. They also have Portuguese blood too. And Dutch. Oh yeah, and while on the subject, they speak the same language as I do. Just about all of the “ Bushmen” (what we call the Koi san people) actually speak our language much better than I do.



Now there we speak the same language. Typical African thing to say. I can take just as much as I can dish, but I didnt eve start to dish out.

I will make a new post just below this one, where I will explain African arts and how I see it. Will even try to get a “ Real” African with knowledge on this matter to post here (maybe by the weekend). Hopefully by the time you get to read this, I would have posted it (its business hours now and i have to work too)

I recommended you look into a system called – the Piper system. If you want to know what real African Arts are all about, that would be a good place to start.


wow... I learned a lot from this post!

[SevenStar]

references to JHR in rap:

"Yo, we throwin 52 blocks at outside shots to bubble up the snot box
No penalties or shot blocks, it's similar to Comstock, kid
You catch an elbow in this hellhole of concrete
Add a touch of soul before we compete..."



"Allah don't like ugly so I held back from bustin him
I passed the burn off, he caught me from the blind side
Tapped a nigga jaw, I shot my fifty-two style, and crazy raw..."


"Fifty-two cops can't withstand the 52 blocks
Unless they bust like 52 shots
I'm the has been that have not"


"Beat niggaz toothless, physically cut up like gooses
But with iron* on the sides thugs took no excuses
Therefore, your fifty-two handblocks was useless..."


all of the above were by members of the wu tang clan.

[SevenStar]

lots of info here:

http://p209.ezboard.com/fmartialartsworldwidefrm21.showMessage?topicID=21. topic


and it mentions the 5 percenters, as someone here inquired...

[danmyete]

Thanks Your Reply-

Here is mine:

Please explain to me the rascist nature of the term "Boers," as it appears to be Afrikaans/Dutch. It is not at all the same as ****** since this epithet for African-Americans derives from twisting of Niger, Negro (used negatively in themselves) as a specifically negative terminology. Actually, "Afrikaner" was the term I intended to use but I have not visited the South African population-demographics issue for sometime now. The term is seen in encyclopedias, etc., and in many of the books I have read on the subject. You will have the Western education system taught the world over to thank for what you are classing as rascist. Since no one other than "whites" have coined the term, it is they to whom you will have to argue the merits, or lack thereof, concerning it.

As to whom is American or not, remember what I said about nationality versus ancestry. Further, given that European-Americans are the ones who coined the term, they most certainly can be consisdered as such. However, you mistate the case in saying the sentence "so All Americans are not Americans just because their Ancestors came from Europe too?" All citizens of the United States of America do not have Ancestors who came from Europe. Afrikaans is a derivative/dialect of European languages with elements of non-European languages contained therein, just as the American dialect of English is European/English with elements of African, Native-American, etc. languages mixed in. "American" English, including the African-American dialect of English, is not spoken anywhere else in the world either. Neither is the Boricua dialect of Spanish spoken in Puerto Rico, nor the Brazilian dialect of Portuguese, nor the Haitian patios of French. George Bush hails from Texas, with a perculiarly Southern-American dialect of English. Yet not one interpretor is needed to translate his dialect for British Heads-Of-State visiting the White House. His dialect, too, is not spoken "anywhere esle in the word." Yet it is still a dialect of English.

In the States, the word Coloured is a derrogatory word harking back to a rather out dated concept of "race." It is a rather regressive understanding of what is more properly viewed as ancestry. That "Coloureds," et al, speak your language does not confer African derivation upon it. It matters little what "they" call your people. It only matters how you can be defined ancestrally that can determine your ancestry. You have said that your maternal grandfather was Dutch, and that you also have German and French in your gene pool. They cannot not be Dutch, French and German ancestrally if they are ancestrally African. If they come from Europe, they cannot be African.

As to your bio, it would not matter if I swapped spit with a Golden Retriever, and barked all day like Shannon The German Sheppard, I would not be a canine. Let me share a very real story, and I shall here answer your question as to my location thru the story. Here, in Philadelphia Pennsylvania, USA, there was a rare variety of Eagle that had been raised in the Philly Zoo with hens, to the point where it attempted to cluck like a chicken. To make a long story short, it was raised to be as another bird. Yet, it was still an Eagle. It took a reentroduction into the behavioral pattern of Eagles to have it act according to its ancestry. Whether or not it was ever introduced into an Eagle's behavior pattern, there is no mistaking the fact that it was an Eagle. Moving it to a Zoo did not alter that fact either.

Tracing your family tree with certainty is less important than the genetic markers that would trace your ancestry back to Europe. You have said that you have Dutch, French and German Ancestry in your tree. How could you know that without tracing it with accuracy?

I am not interested in what people are selling as African. I know what is and what is not since I am involved in many African traditions, especially martially. It is doubtful that you have had experience with any African-Americans personally, and certanly, if at all, not beyond a seminar or tourist visit, yet you think you are qualified to speak on our thinking. You read books, news papers, watch movies or get info. from other forms of media and think you know the African-American psyche-please stop it. Let me tell you something; the overall sensibilities of African-Diasporans, at their core, are essentially African in behavior. Did you know that what is called rap is a form of combative poetry traditonally done by the Kwisamina linguistic poets of The Democratic Republic Of The Congo? Did you know that African herbalogy, rituals, speech patterns, body movements/poses, etc., hairstyles, dance patterns, etc., abound within African-American culture. Names like Fall, Bey, et al, are African. African hand gestures, handshakes, etc., are AFRICAN. We did not learn these things from TV. They remained with us here. My teacher from the DRC played a recording of traditonal music that is identical to music played by Africans from the Southern part of the states. The Banjo is AFRICAN. Rice cultivation from here derives from African rice cultivation. The same with African knowledge of blacksmithing. Are you kiddin' me?

I know more about African culture and martial arts than you'll ever know. I have forgotten more than you know.
To call 52 Handblocks, Alto 52, Comstock and BumRush JHR shows how little anyone researching this art really knows. Not one practitioner of this variant of the art calls this system JHR. If you said JHR to them, they would not know what you are talking about (unless they look at popular media, thus gaining knowledge of the renaming of things they have done all of their lives).

Danmyete is the name of a practioner of Danmye. Majo is the name of a Danmye expert.

To say that the San, or reLated peoples, such as the Kung!, have Chinese ancestry, in order to attempt to explain the epicanthic fold as party of their eyelids is the most ludicrous, King Solomon's mines BS the world is likely to hear. They have this fold for the same reasons that Asians have it (and the San/Kung! are indigenous Africans, like my Ancestors, and not non-Africans as those with warped anthropological views have attempted to explain). It is due to needs derived from experiences in the desertified areas of Southern Africa and further to climatic conditions that favored a colder climate. Given that certain periods of the Southern portion of the continent can become quite cold, these, and not supposed genetic diffusion from some unknown Chinese naval voyage, are to explain the features you are attempting to ludicroulsy assign eslewhere. Chinese and Indians never reached inner Africa/Monomatapwa/the related Shona/Venda rock hewn villages/cities. Their goods did through a trade network controlled by Africans, just as African goods went to China and India via this same network.

What African arts are being sold as non-sense: Mani, Capoeira, Danmye, Mrenge, Yuna Onse, Side-Hold (an African-American wrestling tradition identical to Igbo Mgba)? By the way, my immediate family hails from Virginia. The concentration of Africans there are Igbo. I also have family from Georgia. The concentration there is "Bantu"/Central African/Angolan. Our foods, like Ocre, have African origins. Frying, as done with African-American Fried Chicken, here in the States, is African (though we had to substitute Palm Oil with Crisco). Barbecueing, as done here, is African. The "Ol' Time Religion" spoken of in African-American Christian congregations is our pre Christian, African religions.

Thanks for the discourse. Seguema

[Fu-Pow]

As to whom is American or not, remember what I said about nationality versus ancestry. Further, given that European-Americans are the ones who coined the term, they most certainly can be consisdered as such.

However, you mistate the case in saying the sentence "so All Americans are not Americans just because their Ancestors came from Europe too?" All citizens of the United States of America do not have Ancestors who came from Europe.

Well you're playing pretty loose with the boundaries there because last time I checked America was a continent (actually 2) not just a country or did you forget about our neighbors to the north and south?

And Africa is a continent yes but its also a nation....South Africa.

But it all pretty arbitrary really because what you're really saying is that because Eddie's is not of dark-skinned African descent that he's not African.

Well as far as science is concerned we're all African. Mitochondrial and Y-chromosome evidence points to a migration of hominoids out of Africa either 1,000,000 years ago or 100,000 years ago (according to the two main competing theories.)

The only difference is that your more immediate ancestors stuck around longer. His more immediate ancestors left and then returned.

As far as African culture goes...correct me if I'm wrong.... your saying that you know more about African culture then somebody who grew up there? Who's family has lived there for generations?



In the States, the word Coloured is a derrogatory word harking back to a rather out dated concept of "race."

It really seems like you're the one drawing the lines of race here. Eddie's got light skin (racial feature) so he's not "really" African. So tell us what "really" African is? What does that look like? Sound like? Talk like? Walk like? What are the requirements? BTW, who makes up the requirements?




It is a rather regressive understanding of what is more properly viewed as ancestry. That "Coloureds," et al, speak your language does not confer African derivation upon it. It matters little what "they" call your people. It only matters how you can be defined ancestrally that can determine your ancestry. You have said that your maternal grandfather was Dutch, and that you also have German and French in your gene pool. They cannot not be Dutch, French and German ancestrally if they are ancestrally African. If they come from Europe, they cannot be African.

Once again. Genetic evidence=we're all African. Just depends on what markers you're testing.



As to your bio, it would not matter if I swapped spit with a Golden Retriever, and barked all day like Shannon The German Sheppard, I would not be a canine. Let me share a very real story, and I shall here answer your question as to my location thru the story. Here, in Philadelphia Pennsylvania, USA, there was a rare variety of Eagle that had been raised in the Philly Zoo with hens, to the point where it attempted to cluck like a chicken. To make a long story short, it was raised to be as another bird. Yet, it was still an Eagle. It took a reentroduction into the behavioral pattern of Eagles to have it act according to its ancestry. Whether or not it was ever introduced into an Eagle's behavior pattern, there is no mistaking the fact that it was an Eagle. Moving it to a Zoo did not alter that fact either.

Sorry, if that's not racism I don't know what is. You're comparing different races to different species? Last time I checked black and white people could have kids, chicken and eagles can't.



I know more about African culture and martial arts than you'll ever know. I have forgotten more than you know.

I think that pretty much sums up your position:

"I'm African-American, you're a European-African and I know more about African culture than you do."

Just out of curiousity? Have you ever been to Africa?

[Eddie]

Please explain to me the rascist nature of the term "Boers," as it appears to be Afrikaans/Dutch. It is not at all the same as ****** since this epithet for African-Americans derives from twisting of Niger, Negro (used negatively in themselves) as a specifically negative terminology.


In the last few decades, people have started using this term in a derogatory manner, in the same way as that the Chinese use Hei gui 黑鬼 to address black people, even though down here, it has almost become the acceptable term to use amongst the Chinese community. It’s the meaning that goes with that term which is offensive, and you would not even begin to understand, unless you start looking at our country’s history from a South African point of view or at least someone who has actually been here.



Actually, "Afrikaner" was the term I intended to use but I have not visited the South African population-demographics issue for sometime now. …… Since no one other than "whites" have coined the term, it is they to whom you will have to argue the merits, or lack thereof, concerning it.


Afrikaner is probably a better word, South African would be more accurate. Afrikaners are black, white, coloured, whatever. Pretty much a nation as you stated as for being American.



Afrikaans is a derivative/dialect of European languages with elements of non-European languages contained therein, just as the American dialect of English is European/English with elements of African, Native-American, etc. languages mixed in.

It’s a complete language and not just a dialect. Sure, when I speak slowly, people in Belgium and Holland would understand, but they would probably just pick up the bud ends of the conversation. I am not sure why I need to defend my language and culture with some one who has obviously no idea on this matter. Theoretical knowledge in this case is pointless. You have a very limited understanding on this topic, your academical talk, however impressive I may be, shows you have no clue.



In the States, the word Coloured is a derrogatory word harking back to a rather out dated concept of "race." It is a rather regressive understanding of what is more properly viewed as ancestry.

Well, down here it is a term we use, and even the people who fall under that racial group use this term to describe themselves. And in this sentence “It is a rather regressive understanding of what is more properly viewed as ancestry…” you answer your own question on the “ Boer” issue.


It only matters how you can be defined ancestrally that can determine your ancestry.

Ok, you seem to be very hung up on this ancestry thing. You are completely missing the point of it all. In fact, you are completely missing the point of what being “ African” is all about. You don’t need to validate yourself or your ancestry, you are American, you may have some roots in Africa, but you are NOT African. This point seem to upset you allot. Traditionally speaking, you’d find it very hard to be accepted by the local African people (Im speaking Southern Africa here). It also shows me that you have a very twisted idea of this place and her people. You might be in for a HUGE culture shock. Be prepared for that.



As to your bio, it would not matter if I swapped spit with a Golden Retriever, and barked all day like Shannon The German Sheppard, I would not be a canine

Worthless analogy, not relevant to this topic at all. The Eagle story is cute, but highly irrelevant in this case. Im African… Born and bred here.. I have the same colour blood as my friend Mbusaso. Do you really find that so hard to believe? You seem to have a very big misconception about white Africans.



Tracing your family tree with certainty is less important than the genetic markers that would trace your ancestry back to Europe. You have said that you have Dutch, French and German Ancestry in your tree. How could you know that without tracing it with accuracy?


I believe the Keyword there is “ with accuracy”.

I know nothing about European culture (other than the Hallmark traditions we all share in the West today). I cant go and argue with someone from Holland for example, over cultures and traditions that stems from his country and her people. That’s just mad.



I am not interested in what people are selling as African. I know what is and what is not since I am involved in many African traditions, especially martially


Have you lived in Africa before? Better yet, have you ever been to Africa? If so, exactly where have you been? Exactly which African traditions do you follow. In my country we have 11 Official languages, each language group has their own cultural aspects. Some minor deviations from others, but in some cases the differences are HUGE. Non the less, we still have our own Southern African culture, which means I can understand, respect and unite with someone from this region, whether they be black, white- whatever. We are … AFRICAN after all.



It is doubtful that you have had experience with any African-Americans personally, and certanly, if at all, not beyond a seminar or tourist visit, yet you think you are qualified to speak on our thinking.

The same goes for you. I have experienced African Americans on tours (as you say), but I also know a few who live down here now. Down the road from us lives an “ African American”. Even those people admit to the culture shock.

In the same breath, you have not experienced Africa – or her people and cultures – in a way to qualify you to speak out about African Combat Arts or the culture surrounding that. All Martial Arts are deeply rooted in culture, which is also very much influenced by way of life and standard of living. You have obviously never had to sleep in a metal sink house with only a paraffin stove and candles to give you light You have obviously never had to use an outside communal toilet, or wash yourself in a small bucket of cold water every single day, or slaughter a cow, or drank the blood from a new born goat, or eat sheep brains, or or or … You have NO IDEA, other than the academical knowledge you may have, about what it is to be living in this continent, how do you actually think you will understand how they fight? You don’t even understand the basic psychology behind their strategy. I have never been in prison, I cannot become an expert on prison fighting arts just because I read up on it? You can try to explain to me what a Mc Donnalds Burger taste like, but unless I taste it for myself, all I will ever have is theoretical knowledge. Nothing more, nothing less. I am talking African fighting arts here – Im not talking fighting in general- just to be clear. I don’t know you, and don’t doubt your fighting skill or knowledge.



Let me tell you something; the overall sensibilities of African-Diasporans, at their core, are essentially African in behavior. Did you know that what is called rap is a form of combative poetry traditonally done by the Kwisamina linguistic poets of The Democratic Republic Of The Congo? Did you know that African herbalogy, rituals, speech patterns, body movements/poses, etc., hairstyles, dance patterns, etc., abound within African-American culture. Names like Fall, Bey, et al, are African. African hand gestures, handshakes, etc., are AFRICAN.

Those are basterdised, watered down “ Traditions” that have become part of your African American culture. It doesn’t make you African, just as me following certain Chinese traditions (in Martial Arts eg) doesn’t make me an authority on Chinese Culture. Those are hardly true indications of what Real African Culture is all about.

[Eddie]

My teacher from the DRC played a recording of traditonal music that is identical to music played by Africans from the Southern part of the states. The Banjo is AFRICAN. Rice cultivation from here derives from African rice cultivation. The same with African knowledge of blacksmithing. Are you kiddin' me?


Music from Congo has French influence too. Stringed instruments like Guitar or Banjo has their origins in non African cultures. Prior to that, you’d probably only have single stringed musical instruments. BUT, music and rhythm is what defines Africa. You wont ever know what I am talking about, unless you have actually spend considerable time over here. And not in hotels either. I mean in REAL Africa.

I know nothing about rice cultivation or blacksmithing. In my region (Southern Africa) I doubt that there are allot of rice cultivating going on. Perhaps in some of the coastal areas. I cannot comment on that.



I know more about African culture and martial arts than you'll ever know. I have forgotten more than you know. I am beginning to learn a Thri-Venda and Shona art right now! Please stop it!


From reading books and articles on the net? You kidding me? Im not claiming to know much about African culture, but I am saying I have grown up with this very same culture. Very closely. Its something I see EVERY SINGLE day. I am here, right in the middle of it. You see, this is why I say you have some weird fantasy about what you think you know. I know what Venda is, I even know basics of the language, I don’t know what Thri Venda is. I speak Zulu – well enough to survive down here, and well enough to earn respect from older people. Allot of whites speak these languages, not cause we learned it in school, but because either we had black “ nannies” who helped raised us, or we grew up in areas with a bigger black population than a white population. See, we get to learn culture and customs from the source, not from the net or books. I get to see and experience African culture and Africa, not by choice, but because I live here. You seem to think all White South Africans are colonialists who sit in their big white Victorian houses drinking tea and reading Byron books. You couldn’t be more wrong.



To call 52 Handblocks, Alto 52, Comstock and BumRush JHR shows how little anyone researching this art really knows. Not one practitioner of this variant of the art calls this system JHR. If you said JHR to them, they would not know what you are talking about (unless they look at popular media, thus gaining knowledge of the renaming of things they have done all of their lives).


Hence my comments on it not being African.



Danmyete is the name of a practioner of Danmye. Majo is the name of a Danmye expert.


Never heard of this. Neither did my friend. What language is that, and where can I find references to this art?



To say that the San, or reLated peoples, such as the Kung!, have Chinese ancestry, in order to attempt to explain the epicanthic fold as party of their eyelids is the most ludicrous, King Solomon's mines BS the world is likely to hear.

I never claimed to be an anthropologist, I merely stated what has been in the media as of late. Perhaps do a google search, or visit news24.co.za or related sites with info in this matter. Take it up with the people who mentioned this. We even have a local tv add for Camphor cream that claims that the Chinese introduced some type of medicine to Africa, and that the Africans then swapped other types of medicine with the Chinese. I really have little knowledge on this, but will check to see if I can find references.



To say that the San, or reLated peoples, such as the Kung!,

You keep mentioning this Kung!. I have no idea who you are referring to here. Please can you tell me which people are you talking about?



Given that certain periods of the Southern portion of the continent can become quite cold, these, and not supposed genetic diffusion from some unknown Chinese naval voyage, are to explain the features you are attempting to ludicroulsy assign eslewhere.


Southern Africa really doesn’t get that cold. I have only once seen snow in Africa, and I had to travel to a high mountain to go see it. The San is from the Kalahari – hardly any snow down there. These features you mention are typical of ‘ snow gazers’, which the San people are not. Ok, given the fact – it is very windy over at the Kalahari, and there are allot of sand, suppose that does make some sense. Anyway, this was never meant to be an anthropology lesson, non of this change the fact that I am African, and you are NOT. You don’t like that, do you?



Chinese and Indians never reached inner Africa/Monomatapwa/the related Shona/Venda rock hewn villages/cities. Their goods did through a trade network controlled by Africans, just as African goods went to China and India via this same network.


Well there are historical proof that seem to indicate other wise. I don’t buy into the African sailor idea – Have you ever been to East Africa? Have you seen how primitive their boat making skills are? But I admit that I am no historian either. You do seem to be very academically inclined, I would love to learn what you know on this subject.



What African arts are being sold as non-sense: Mani, Capoeira, Danmye, Mrenge, Yuna Onse, Side-Hold (an African-American wrestling tradition identical to Igbo Mgba)?

I have never even heard of those other arts. I see allot of Capoeira down here. I see the way white people do Capoeira, and I see the way black people do Capoeira. White people (even Brazilians) don’t have the same rhythm, and the same cultural outlook as the black people. Capoeira Angola is probably closest to what I see in African fighting arts, although it has also been diluted and blended with Brazilian culture. Apart from a small minority of people who live in the coastal areas, allot of African people don’t even know about Capoeira. The ones who do, seem to all have some kind of Portuguese link. It hardly qualify to represent African Fighting Arts or culture.

If you look at Johnny Clegg music videos (Jaluka or Savuka was his band’s name). The way they danced on stage, that can give you an idea of what real African fighting arts would look like. I will explain my views in another post. Im trying to see if I can get some pictures and other reference material to post with that. I think it could be education for me too, to do this little exercise. Hoping by the weekend it will be done.



By the way, my immediate family hails from Virginia. The concentration of Africans there are Igbo. I also have family from Georgia. The concentration there is "Bantu"/Central African/Angolan.

Bantu is Zulu (it means people), which means they must hail from Kwazulu Natal area, a province down next to the South East coast of South Africa (its called the Zulu kingdom).



Our foods, like Ocre, have African origins. Frying, as done with African-American Fried Chicken, here in the States, is African (though we had to substitute Palm Oil with Crisco). Barbecueing, as done here, is African

Nope, not so. Very little frying in African cooking methods. “Barbecueing” is probably close, but what I have seen, the American way does not come close to the African way. That is just as much part of my own South African culture, as it is part of African culture (but personally I’m a vegetarian).

I wonder if you would really be able to stomach real African food.



The "Ol' Time Religion" spoken of in African-American Christian congregations is our pre Christian, African religions.


Black Christians down here seemed to have been able to find a good way to mix Christianity with their ancient cultural beliefs. Although they are still more “African” than they are “Christian”. Its pretty hard to describe though. African culture, and African religion is pretty much the same thing.

[Eddie]

I am learning Mavili, so please stop it with your supposed African authority ideas.


I’m living in Africa, grew up here, live closely together with Africans. I know no other culture, even though I may be white, I am still African, whether I (or you) like it or not. We (Black and white Africans) share cultural aspects, and we have traded customs and culture with each other. The last 500 years or so, we have had to learn to live together, whether we liked it or not. I am not a foreigner to my own continent s you may want to suggest. I have more right than you to claim heritage to this place. My “ knowledge” on this subject is NOT theoretical or academical, it comes from growing up with these cultures, from active participation (in more ways that you can ever imagine). I don’t have distorted ideas on this topic, in actual fact, if I really need info on this matter, Im sure I can find an expert within a 1 kilometer radius from my house. Heck, I’m sure if I walk outside my front gate I will probably find someone who knows more about this issue than you will ever know. There are allot of REAL warriors down here. When it comes to violence and combat, Africa has no time and place for fake things. Africa is tuff, her people are tuff, their culture is tuff. I say it again, there is no way you would even begin to know what I am talking about, unless you have spend enough time down here. No Idea I tell you!



I Thanks for the discourse. See ya at the Cattle Deeps (The Musangwa). I will use my Thari for spiritual aid. BTW, this is not a challenge, lest you think I am acting agressively inhospitable. I am simply letting you know that I am well aware of my cultural traditions.



I don’t know what a Musangwa is, neither does my friend next to me, or the cleaning lady that was cleaning the office just now. I know its not a challenge. If I know one thing, in Africa, there is a strange kind of respect and loyalty amongst warriors, yet people are strangely very hostile towards each other (talk about racists amongst these African cultures), but when it comes to unity, there is no other People in the world who can beat them. Africans are extremely loyal to each other and very protective when they need to stand together. Sad that it seem to only happen when they are threatened by outsiders…

If you ever in the Region, I would like to show you the REAL Africa. Introduce you to REAL Africans, and let you experience REAL African fighting arts. You can teach me all bout American and Western culture – you could even try some sparring with a REAL African, any style, even western boxing. You can see the culture in everything - now that would be cool don’t you think?

[TenTigers]

The guy who showed me Jailhouse Rock called it that, and picked it up in Gladiator School-Washington Correctional Facility. In Elmira, it was also called that. My other friend who learned it in Rikers, also called it that, but also knew of the Comestock Shuffle. Another guy just called it "J-Rock". Terms like 52, creasing,Bumrush might be west coast. I have only seen them in articles, never around here. Of course now you will hear 52 handblocks because it's in music.
I see kids in the street doing the elbow thing, you can tell they don't really know it-just posers- because when they get to fighting-it all goes out the window. They also don't have the footwork, which some of looks like uprock, or the jinga. One guy I knew had the weirdest footwork-it was a zig-zag shuffle approach, whith the hands doing the "What! WHAT!?" thing , and he would be on you before you realized. There was a real big intimidation factor, which causes you to hesitate, and then the rush. Scary sh1t, when it's bein done to you.

[SevenStar]

The guy who shared some with me called it that as well. He also referred to it as 52 blocks. If I'm not mistaken, dennis newsome also refers to it as JHR.

[Buby]

The guy who shared some with me called it that as well. He also referred to it as 52 blocks. If I'm not mistaken, dennis newsome also refers to it as JHR.


To be honest, I've never know it to be JHR. I guess my uncle thought I was to young to ever bother telling me it's name. At the beginning of this thread I thought he didn't know the name, but when I went back and asked him he knew the name right off the bat.

Ten - I can definitly see the uprook in the footwork, even some of the hands(I learned to dance uprock from my uncle, he was part of DTR - Down To Rock and was also a Lynch Boys(Block Gang)). I think its effectiveness is in the faints. Plus, when they sart doing the footwork w/ hands the first thing that goes through your mind is WTF!LOLOLOLOL I don't see it as anything special anymore since everone and their moms fights like that out here. Its like any fighting system, you have you high level players and then you got your posers. I can assure you that the most of dudes learning it in jail are no posers. Except those that were someone else's biotch.LOLOLOL And fake the funk! But the hood is small and word gets around.LOLOLOL

Buby

[danmyete]

Let me start by asking you to define a black person. From where do they come, what language do they speak, etc.

I actually went to school with an Afrikaner in the 80s. Not once did he include Xhosas, Zulus, Vendas, Shangons, BaPede, etc., as Afrikaners. Its a ludicrous premise. My phenotype does not derive from North America. It derives from Africa. Specifically Igbo and Congolese/Angolan.

What theoretical knowledge am I talking about with African combatives. The fact that you are not aware of Mavili, there in South Africa, speaks for itself. Bringing up cleaning people, etc., who have not heard of such things is ludicrous. Here is an art that I practice: LIBANDA. Please do not attempt to tell me about my traditions. In a line up with people who are its custodians, I would be indistinguishable from the ethnic groups who created it. You would not. I do not theorize about it, I do it. Mani is a Congoloese MA, unless of course you have facts to attempt to assert to my "teacher" that his history of its lineage is incorrect...Its martial movements are the same as those found in Ogun's BLADE COMBATIVES. Look: here's what you do. Before speaking on this subject, at least read T.J. Obi's work on the Ongolo. The idea that there are "Brazilian influences" on it, as if Brazilian culture is somehow devoid of African cultural influences (Capoeira being among these), and as to suggest that these supposed influences are "non-African," is silly. The Igbos had an artform called Ntle Ukwu, a devasting kicking art used to amin and kill thru kicking and scissoring. Within the Hausa'a Dambe, there is Kwambo. In Libanda, there is Nzanga, Biboto, Mokoto, Mutu and Nyembes.

Let me stop here and cease this silly discourse. Anyone wishing to discuss African combatives, please, let us do do.

Seko Silibanda

[danmyete]

Danmye:

Hand Striking: Cocoye (Open Hand Strikes) and Roin Poin (Swinging Fist Strikes). Striking can be done with one or both hands at the same time, another feature marking its African origins as seen in Libanda and Mrenge, for example.

The Quimbois is the spiritualist whose traditions derive from Central African spiritual traditions. It is also cognative of Haitian Vodun. Central African patterns include tree shrines to the Ancestors, as is/was done in the African-American south. It is he who spiritually empowers a Danmyete prior to a bout. Empowerment included, for Danmyete, sleeping in a space once accupied by a Bull in order to absorb its energy. Herbal medicines were also used.

Elbowing, kneeing, kicking, grappling, sweeping/tripping and headbutting along with defensive escapes and blocks constitute its combative core.

Central African drumming, Bantu Drumming from Central Africa, with the Ti-Bwa, is used as rhythm keeper in Danmye, the performative aspect of 'Ladja De La Morte,' Ladja Of Death as it was known during African enslavement on Martinique. The treverse drum, or lying the drum on the ground and playing it with hands and the heel of one foot is a common Central African drumming patter. Majo, Ladja experts, were pitted against each other on plantations during bouts arranged by Plantation owners. Ladja became a composite art form from previously related but separate Central African combatives. There are also related blade and stick fighting traditions.

This is simply a brief idea of some the African arts currently extant.

[Fu-Pow]

Let me stop here and cease this silly discourse. Anyone wishing to discuss African combatives, please, let us do do.

Seko Silibanda

You're the one that made it silly to begin with. Now you want to play nice? What a fabulous debut onto this forum....:rolleyes:

Anyways, welcome....hope you've figured out that if you want people to take you seriously here then you need to show due respect.

FP

[danmyete]

I did not make anything silly, nor am I "playing nice." Since we are at an impasse, it is time to agree to disagree and move on. My initial posts talked about so-called JHR and what made it African. Instead of a discussion on this , as well as on my views as to why there is an automatic dismissal of the African origins of arts such as Capoeira, etc. what I got were responses like : Acupuncture is believed to have began in Africa too, that doesn't make it more effective (:confused: ) and African-Americans have fantasies about Africa. How does attempting to discuss the relationship between JHR and other African arts relative to their African origin become remotely related to fantasizing about Africa? What does the possible African origins of "Acupuncture," and whether or not it is more effective than the non-African variant (I don't know what the heck that meant), have to do with the relationship between Mani, so-called JHR and the African arts of which I am a practitioner? Absolutely nothing...

If, however, there is a desire to continue the "AFRICAN" discussion then, by all means, let's get busy. Otherwise, let us move on, as there was actually some points from Mickey that I shall address concerning African martial arts.

[Fu-Pow]

If, however, there is a desire to continue the "AFRICAN" discussion then, by all means, let's get busy. Otherwise, let us move on, as there was actually some points from Mickey that I shall address concerning African martial arts.

WTF is a discussion of JHR doing in a Southern Chinese Kung Fu Forum to begin with?

Looks like our mod is sleepin at the wheel again.

Fu-Pow: "How 'bout making the Southern Kung Fu Video thread a sticky."

Sevenstar: "Sorry I'm too busy discussing African combatives in the Southern Kung Fu forum."

How do you become a mod? I'll take it over just tell me how and who to contact. Hell, at this point I'd let hskwarrior be the mod, it'd be better than what we've got now.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Eddie]

Danmayete,

Are you being serious?! Knowing someone in the 80s hardly qualifies you to tell me about MY culture and MY people. That’s the biggest joke. You obviously know nothing, and your responses indicated that. You try to disguise your lack of real knowledge with clever wording from the bits and pieces you picked up on goog,e, but you don’t really answer anything. I also never argued about being black, I’m happy to be white. I have little ambition to change my race or culture, there is however a HUGE difference between being black and being African. But, this wasn’t the argument. You think you know about African culture and the so called African combat arts, but you obviously know nothing, you still did not even reply to the questions of where in Africa you have ever been. You speak of stuff no one knows about, you mention words no one understands, and you seem to mix up the cultures with their respective demographics. You mention Bantu Drumming from Central Africa, where as the word Bantu is a distinct Zulu term, they hail from Southern Africa. You obviously have no clue. Im not going to argue with you about this anymore, as you are either a troll or just plain ignorant. Either way, I will tell you, you know NOTHING about Africa, nor do you know anything about African fighting arts.



Hand Striking: Cocoye (Open Hand Strikes) and Roin Poin (Swinging Fist Strikes). Striking can be done with one or both hands at the same time, another feature marking its African origins as seen in Libanda and Mrenge, for example.


And heres some more proof. You are trying to make as if African Arts are ass well structured as Asian arts (for example) by even coming up with names for techniques. Tell me, what language are you using. Those are neither Shona nor Nguni terms. Is it some lost African language that African Americans from Virginia speaks?

Its pretty simple to see if something comes from Africa, if you have ever spend time here, you would have known what to look for. What you mention, doesn’t mark African origins.



It is he who spiritually empowers a Danmyete prior to a bout. Empowerment included, for Danmyete, sleeping in a space once accupied by a Bull in order to absorb its energy. Herbal medicines were also used.


So this art you are selling is not practical? One need to prepare for battle to be able to fight to full capacity? Unless you are talking about war strategy, this makes little sense. I can tell you, have you ever heard of African Time? If someone needs to go prepare for the bout first, the chances are that the fight would never happen.



Elbowing, kneeing, kicking, grappling, sweeping/tripping and headbutting along with defensive escapes and blocks constitute its combative core.

More proof to tell me you see it from a WESTERN point of view. But we cant blame you, you are a Westerner after all.



Central African drumming, Bantu Drumming from Central Africa, with the Ti-Bwa, is used as rhythm keeper in Danmye, the performative aspect of 'Ladja De La Morte,' Ladja Of Death as it was known during African enslavement on Martinique. The treverse drum, or lying the drum on the ground and playing it with hands and the heel of one foot is a common Central African drumming patter. Majo, Ladja experts, were pitted against each other on plantations during bouts arranged by Plantation owners. Ladja became a composite art form from previously related but separate Central African combatives. There are also related blade and stick fighting traditions.


African tradition pre dates the Slavery Era in Central Africa. When you talk African Fighting arts, please stick to African fighting arts, and not what some people in the west think were African arts. Also, please supply historical proof of some of your claims. Again, non of those terms makes an sense from an African point of view.



This is simply a brief idea of some the African arts currently extant

No its not. Its only a brief idea of what you, a Westerner non African, American think is part of an African tradition.

Whether or not your art is ligit as a martial / fighting art is irrelevant. It may be practical, it may work, but don’t sell it as something it surely is not.

I am busy with my report on REAL African Fighting Arts, and I will post this on another forum when I am done with it.

I support that this topic be moved.

[TenTigers]

while JHR does have a style within based on fighting while being handcuffed behind the head, which might be related to slavery-era, and the jinga is within the footwork, many of the techniques are purely non-African, and were developed from inmates mingling and trading techniques with other inmates' arts. NYC was a hotbed of Martial Arts in the 70's. Many inner city youths learned Karate, Kung-Fu, etc as it was brought into the youth groups in order to rebuild them and keep them off the streets. Steve Sanders in Cali developed the Black Karate Federation in an attempt at this as well.
In 42nd st, there were triple feature Kung-Fu fliks, you would go in in the morning and come out of the theatres at night. All this was added into the mix, as well as alot of Western Boxing-as it was taught in the gyms, on the streets, and in the PAL groups and youth associations.
I know there will always be techniques that are found in all cultures-as long as we have the same bodies, two arms, two legs, etc/ It is very easy to Afrikanize a technique and claim ancestry. But truth is, there are Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Philippino, western boxing, as well as African techniques in JHR, as the prisons were melting pots, and everything went into the mix.
If you want to start another thread on Afrikan Martial Arts, fine. But don't completely hijack this one. I think there are a few people who have been exposed to JHR in some form or another, and sharing the experience might allow us access to an art that was previously shrouded in mystery, much as Kung-Fu in the past was not taught to non-Chinese.

[hellhound]

references to JHR in rap:

"Yo, we throwin 52 blocks at outside shots to bubble up the snot box
No penalties or shot blocks, it's similar to Comstock, kid
You catch an elbow in this hellhole of concrete
Add a touch of soul before we compete..."



"Allah don't like ugly so I held back from bustin him
I passed the burn off, he caught me from the blind side
Tapped a nigga jaw, I shot my fifty-two style, and crazy raw..."


"Fifty-two cops can't withstand the 52 blocks
Unless they bust like 52 shots
I'm the has been that have not"


"Beat niggaz toothless, physically cut up like gooses
But with iron* on the sides thugs took no excuses
Therefore, your fifty-two handblocks was useless..."


all of the above were by members of the wu tang clan.


And they are from NYC and african-american. I'm not suprised from what I have heard in this thread. It's just that it is not even popular on the whole of the east coast. Seems to just be NYC. Maybe a bit of North Jersey. Oh well.

No-one knows about the numerology thing I guess or it must really only a 5 percenter thing.

The only thing I think we have proven in this thread is that 52 whateva' is an african-american NYC thing and is not some jailhouse style known across the country or even the same coast for that matter. Seems like the NYC peeps like to make it seem if it happens there it happens everywhere. That and too many of you are either law enforcement or seem to hang out with them. Don't forget what I said happened to me at 12 so you can guess how I feel about people like that. Oh and have fun with this nationality conversation that somehow got started as soon as I used the words african-american.

My parting words on this thread is stop conversing about something people use in jail. It's not a place worth having a conversation over unless you are kids in a scared straight program. Anybody can string a load of techniques together and call it something. So something strung together by a prisoner in the 40s does not mean much. You give anything to me and most of the people I know and we could easily pull it off in the middle of a brawl after seeing it once. It is not like a fight or ways to fight is anything new to anyone who's done time in a violent crime ward for a violent crime.

[SevenStar]

Seems like the NYC peeps like to make it seem if it happens there it happens everywhere. That and too many of you are either law enforcement or seem to hang out with them.

What I've seen of it was actually shown to me in tennessee, and not by a cop...

[Eddie]

I can imagine that in any prison there are prison cultures, probably a mix from all the different cultures of inmates. Majority of inmates are streetwise, not really University Educated professionals, so I can well imagine that this JHR has roots in street culture, and is influnced by thiss street ways. I would imagine that there are not allot of ground fighting sinvolved, cause lets face it, who wants to go to the ground in a prison fight? 10 000 other inmates will be just too willing to kick your head in while you are down there.

Seven star, you say you did hear about piper. if you are more interested, get in touch with the people on this ssite, www.urbanshield.za.net. More specifically Lloyed. It will be well worth your efforts.

[TenTigers]

likewise, much of the JHR I got was from two inmates. The one CO from Rikers is a career Martial Artist, Isshinryu under Advincula, Muay Thai, Kyokushin, Kali, etc left Rikers because the CO's are worse than the inmates-his car was broken into, his locker was broken into, things were stolen-even he said CO's are slime and most of the inmates had a heckuva lot more honor. He went on to personal security, security at Brookhaven Labs, and "side jobs" overseas. he is or was, (not sure) involved with Blackwater. Definately not a cop.
Washington Correctional, Elmira, and others are upstate, but mostly NYC, so you may be right that JHR is predominantly a NY state of mind.
Let's try to take a different tack on this topic. Perhaps it would be more interesting if we discussed more in depth the actual techniques, and tried to piece this together. JHR, 52 , etc is out, There is now a video on Ghetto Blocks, or whatever, there is info out there on the web. It is now public domain. The shroud of secrecy is lifted. let's put our heads together and discuss this from a techniqe oriented perspective, before it becomes totally commercialized and there will be McPrisons teaching it, and all the "experts" come out of the woodwork.
Once this gets out, Century will be selling Ghetto wraps-boxer's handwraps made from prison bedsheets or some sh1t. and rubber practce shanks.
I can just envision the seminar circuit. somebody stop me, I'm startin to smell $$$

[Phil Redmond]

likewise, much of the JHR I got was from two inmates. The one CO from Rikers is a career Martial Artist, Isshinryu under Advincula, Muay Thai, Kyokushin, Kali, etc left Rikers because the CO's are worse than the inmates-his car was broken into, his locker was broken into, things were stolen-even he said CO's are slime and most of the inmates had a heckuva lot more honor. He went on to personal security, security at Brookhaven Labs, and "side jobs" overseas. he is or was, (not sure) involved with Blackwater. Definately not a cop.
Washington Correctional, Elmira, and others are upstate, but mostly NYC, so you may be right that JHR is predominantly a NY state of mind.
Let's try to take a different tack on this topic. Perhaps it would be more interesting if we discussed more in depth the actual techniques, and tried to piece this together. JHR, 52 , etc is out, There is now a video on Ghetto Blocks, or whatever, there is info out there on the web. It is now public domain. The shroud of secrecy is lifted. let's put our heads together and discuss this from a techniqe oriented perspective, before it becomes totally commercialized and there will be McPrisons teaching it, and all the "experts" come out of the woodwork.
Once this gets out, Century will be selling Ghetto wraps-boxer's handwraps made from prison bedsheets or some sh1t. and rubber practce shanks.
I can just envision the seminar circuit. somebody stop me, I'm startin to smell $$$
You're right. . . LOL
I love my country but that'd be so American. :D
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

The Wu Tang Clan are from the Ft. Greene projects in Brooklyn. I lived on St. Felix and DeKalb right across the park from the projects. I can see them refering to 52 Blocks. There used to be lots of guys practicing in the park. I used to train WC students in the park so they could see what they could be up against. Then they had to come up with spitting razors betweent their fingers and slapping people across the facr or arms. I would say grab a stick, tree branch, run to a car and break off the antenna, etc. That's was before they made retractable antenna. ;)
Phil

[Buby]

What up Fellas? This is a lil something I found on the subject. Enjoy!

http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/ug/jhr7.html

http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/ug/jhr3.html

http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/52/52jhr.html

Be easy,

Buby

[danmyete]

Danmayete,

Are you being serious?! Knowing someone in the 80s hardly qualifies you to tell me about MY culture and MY people. That’s the biggest joke. You obviously know nothing, and your responses indicated that. You try to disguise your lack of real knowledge with clever wording from the bits and pieces you picked up on goog,e, but you don’t really answer anything. I also never argued about being black, I’m happy to be white. I have little ambition to change my race or culture, there is however a HUGE difference between being black and being African. But, this wasn’t the argument. You think you know about African culture and the so called African combat arts, but you obviously know nothing, you still did not even reply to the questions of where in Africa you have ever been. You speak of stuff no one knows about, you mention words no one understands, and you seem to mix up the cultures with their respective demographics. You mention Bantu Drumming from Central Africa, where as the word Bantu is a distinct Zulu term, they hail from Southern Africa. You obviously have no clue. Im not going to argue with you about this anymore, as you are either a troll or just plain ignorant.

Of course you're not, as you need that time to talk to my elders to gather your field research for the African arts you do not practice. What expert talks about something, with such expertise, that he does not practice? Now, why would you, the Afrikan, consider AFRICA as WEIRD. No REAL AFRICAN would look at it that way. That could only be a decidely non-AFRICAN way of viwing your supposed HOMELAND. Maybe you can teach me good old African words like Johanesburg. Real Nguni words like that. You do not know anything about Africa because, like Johnny Clegg, your a wannbe, and because you are not African-you are an Afrikaner (your words), BIG difference. Perhaps you can tell me all about Afrikaner dancing/martial arts. I'm always eager to learn.


Either way, I will tell you, you know NOTHING about Africa, nor do you know anything about African fighting arts.

In one breath you say I know nothing, in another, you concede the art I know "may be " "legit." Make up your mind.


And heres some more proof. You are trying to make as if African Arts are ass well structured as Asian arts (for example) by even coming up with names for techniques. Tell me, what language are you using. Those are neither Shona nor Nguni terms. Is it some lost African language that African Americans from Virginia speaks?

Come into the light, Carol Anne...Because you can spout off about stuff you got from school means nothing-what AFRICAN art do you pracitce-not your giggling "friend," not the cleaning women-YOU...If you are AFRICAN, then surely you practice an AFRICAN "artform," right? If so, how is it expressed/performed.?Don't give me Johhny Clegg dance troup dancing-giving the art you do...Tick. Tock. Tick, Tock...Quick, hurry, get your Johnny Clegg books out!

African arts are structured, the African way. Zulu stickplay is a fom of structure, or didn't you know that. Since I have never compared African arts to Asian arts, how could I be linking their structures?

Its pretty simple to see if something comes from Africa, if you have ever spend time here, you would have known what to look for. What you mention, doesn’t mark African origins.

You're correct. So, then, please tell me the art that you do which comes from Africa?



So this art you are selling is not practical?

Huh? Ya got me there, as I haven't a clue what you mean.

One need to prepare for battle to be able to fight to full capacity?

Do you know what Libanda means? Concentrate on Sticky Hands,as you haven't a clue...


Unless you are talking about war strategy, this makes little sense.

What makes little sense?


I can tell you, have you ever heard of African Time? If someone needs to go prepare for the bout first, the chances are that the fight would never happen.



More proof to tell me you see it from a WESTERN point of view. But we cant blame you, you are a Westerner after all.



African tradition pre dates the Slavery Era in Central Africa. When you talk African Fighting arts, please stick to African fighting arts, and not what some people in the west think were African arts. Also, please supply historical proof of some of your claims. Again, non of those terms makes an sense from an African point of view.



No its not. Its only a brief idea of what you, a Westerner non African, American think is part of an African tradition.

Whether or not your art is ligit as a martial / fighting art is irrelevant. It may be practical, it may work, but don’t sell it as something it surely is not.

What are you babbling about. In order for you, (Kin of Clegg, whom you phenotypically resemble-in fact, the site of him doing Zulu "war " dances looks absolutely ridiculous, as he looks goofy doing it, probably the way you look doing it, and does not have the nuances to do it justice, to know that I am "selling" something that it is "surely not," you had better be able to show me that it is "surely NOT." I gave you the name of an art from right in your "country," yet you know it not. You contradict yourself in, on the one hand referencing that the art may be legit, which it is, but, then declaring that I am selling something that it is not, without a shred of Johnny Clegg proof of "what it is." Stick to "Kung Fu," which is probably what you know best. You mention a few ethnic groups as if they are the sole representations of African peoples. Because you have a "black friend" who giglles with you as you write, or a cleaning lady who blah, balh, balh, you think you know. When I see Johnny Clegg, I do not see a Zulu. It is highly unlikely that you resemble one either, which will be made all the more glaring were you to do Zulu dancing among Zulus I, however, would be extraordinarily indistinguishable.

You, yourself, clearly do not practice any of them, as you need to obviously get help on info. from some one who actually does. You wouldn't know how to do an African art, like Libanda, to save your life. The flexible body and rthyms issues alone would kill you. Your hips are probably too stiff to do it and, since its not ballet, flying up in the air, but ground centered/rooted, you'd fall apart instantly.

And, also, S.A. has nothing on any major U.S. city in terms of violence. Right now, I am typing you from Temple UNIV., IN THE HEART of Bill Cosby's Richard Allen projects (now yuppied somewhat further East of Broad & Cecil B.); it "don't" any more dangerous than that. IT'S THREE in the morning, I'm leaving work as I do 5 days a week and without fear. Libanda is no game. Now, what AFRICAN ART DO YOU practice, and from what Amakhanda did you learn it? You know snot.:rolleyes:

Try again-and don't post stuff some body tells you-post the AFRICAN ART YOU ARE INVOLVED IN.

I am busy with my report on REAL African Fighting Arts, and I will post this on another forum when I am done with it.

I support that this topic be moved.

I am looking forward to the wonderful African arts you do.

[Eddie]

I never contradicted myself, your defense was pathetic. Whats even more pathetic is someone who has never even been to Africa, trying to argue with someone who was born and grew up here. Your remark about violence in the USA is also pointless and childish at best. What you sell, is westernised crap sold under an African banner. Because you are black, you may think you can get away with it. Do you also issue degree ranks in your African art? You must be a 10th degree right? I can just imagibne what you look like - do you also wear those " African" Dresses (we call them Madiba shirts) with those muslim cap things?

You are most welcome to come down here and look me up when ever you are in SA. Heck, I'll even accomodate you. Even better, I will let you stay with friends in a REAL African township with REAL African people. Lets see if you will survive.

You know nothing about me, or my people, or my country. You are what you are, an African American. I admire that you are trying to trace your roots, but open your eyes and try to see the truth. Unless you have been to Africa, which you have not - cause you have not replied to my questions- you actually have no leg to argue with me when I say this place is really really weird. I did not say that in an un patriotical way, if you come to Africa you will know what I mean.

All my details, contact numbers and everything is on my website which you can find a link in my profile. My real name is also on my site, not hard to see, Eddie is the short an easy version. I openly invite you to come over and " Experience" your roots, and only after that, you might be somewhat qualified to talk to me about MY homeland and MY people.

No issue to be an American either, be proud of your , allot of people would kill to be an American. You live in the best managed country in the world. Despite of what we may think of the politics.

You have a standing invite, till then, I wont discuss anything else with you anymore. Its not worth arguing with someone like you

[SimonM]

Hellhound... You remind me... I gotta listen to more Wu Tang Clan...

Mabey it's just the beer talking but.... I like hip hop and Jae Cho just doesn't cut muster.

[hellhound]

Glad to be of service ;)

I did find out about the numerlogy of the 52 stricks/52 blocks/JHR and the 52 is how many cards are in a deck and these are the cards you have been dealt in life (meaning prison is the cards you have been dealt).

Seems I actually found something with useful info about the topic. Although there seems to be allot of info out there on it. Peace out!

[iblis73]

There was once a great discussion about JHR/52 HB et al on the mma.tv website. The man posting was doug century, the author of Street Kingdom. Reading that book will give you some idea of it. Also check out FIST, STICK, KNIFE,GUN by a Black American whose last name is Canada (Joe CAnada?) In it he gives detailed accounts of "street" type training methods-people slap boxing or using clenched fists w/o contact to the face (remember, this was training.)

I find these types of fighting fascinating for several reasons. One is they are very "tribal" or loose in structure-no rules, formulas, stances, etc. In that regards I think it is more creative and allows for a faster learning curve. Aside from some techniques that are shared the rest of the training appears to be much physical conditioning and various types of sparring (without gear.) See my description above from MR. Canada's book about some of the methods.

Technique wise there are moves that you would recognize from any martial art-chuan fa, jiu jitsu, boxing, silat, etc. Again I think what stands out is that it is less formalized, more spontaneous/creative and very flowing. It reminds me of African and Indian tribal methods as well as some of the more modern JKD/BLAUER type sytems (where one is mostly just taught "tools", eg a jab, and different drills to apply it.)

To finish off of course it is the brutality of the streets/prison, fighting experience, meaness and conditioning that wins out. Even in Doug Centurys book (where he basically hung out with a street crew or gang for a year or so) there is a line to the effect that there was one bad ass in the hood that no one wanted a part of, regardless of whether or not they knew JHR. That fella went by the name Magic Mike or Iron Mike. His real name was Mike Tyson :)

I would personally love to train/be taught by its exponents for the simple reason that they are often tough, skilled and EXPERIENCED in fighting.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . .
To finish off of course it is the brutality of the streets/prison, fighting experience, meaness and conditioning that wins out. Even in Doug Centurys book (where he basically hung out with a street crew or gang for a year or so) there is a line to the effect that there was one bad ass in the hood that no one wanted a part of, regardless of whether or not they knew JHR. That fella went by the name Magic Mike or Iron Mike. His real name was Mike Tyson :)
You mean that former stickup kid from one of my old Hoods, Brownsville, Brooklyn? ;)
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

The real Americans were the people native to the land but ALL citizens of the U.S. call themselves Americans. I think Eddie has the same right.
Phil

[danmyete]

What part of America have you been to? But you are quite the expert on African-American culture/behavior, etc.

[Eddie]

What part of America have you been to? But you are quite the expert on African-American culture/behavior, etc.

Florida, California, Ney York

[danmyete]

Here is my perception. No one has debated the first peoples to have peopled this hemisphere/continent. However, Africa is not a country, therefore, you cannot be a citizen of it. I am not arguing that one cannot be South African (as in: a citizen of South Africa, the nation). However, I disagree with that if we are assigning ancestry as it has traditionally been used to define the various, "major" branches of our species. The only time Western scholars have attempted to twist the very divisions to which they have attempted to assign these branches as in attempts to overtly, or covertly, assign either Western or hypothetical "Caucasoid" (which in itself is stretched ad nauseum) origins to practices deemed worthy of note according to a Western paradigm of what may be considered noteworthy. An example is attributing non-African origins to ruins stretching from Mozambique to Southern Africa (i.e. the Great Zimbabwean cultural complex).

My initial thread dealt with the connections between traditional African fights and those of the diaspora. I revealed some core paradigms which tended to support this idea. Eddie, instead, chose to attack what he assumed was my African-American attitudes relative to Africa and my presumed promotion of repackaged non-African arts as African. I provided several arts of which I am a relatively beginning practioner as support for my contention. I was then told that what he supposeldy knows about African combatives (which, at best, can only be relegated to the region of the content in which he resides) supports the idea that African/African-derived arts such as LIBANDA (STILL DONE ON THE CONTINENT) and DANMYE (DONE IN MARTINIQUE) are my own repackaging (of arts he has yet to isolate as such), despite not even having a passing awareness of these traditions. Even a cursory investigation into Danmye would negate guess work on ones part, and the very reason why I stumbled upon this site was due to a search engine on Ladja, which is a thread on this site. Clearly, it is an extant tradition.

I am "sorry" if Danmye, of its own existence, exists as a codified martial system. The Majo/Danmyetes who developed it are to be held accountible for that. That it has names for techniques, an inherent philosophy and practice regimen is not my problem. They exist and that is all there is to it. I am sorry if African martial/spiritual traditions have breathing techniques (hundreds to be exact-some while lying, standing, "dancing/tensing the muscles, flexing the spine/joints, sitting, etc.) or that the Kung! of the Kalahari have the concept of vital energy (Nnum) boiling from the stomach or spine and, then, rising up the body from those areas as a vapor (see the text 'Boiling Energy), or that Amazulu has a similar method for vital energy manipulation (Umbilini-Libido) and related breathing methods used by Sangomas and Nyangas, which do not fit a Western/modern paradigm of what African spirituality is supposed to be (despite the utter lack of info. on actual African spiritual practices in the first place).

That I classify my self as African ancestrally is not just a right but ancestrally accurate. One must not confuse nationality with ancestry. And as I've said, there are no black, white or yeollow peoples. If that is the case, then Doc Fai Wong is a yellow-American, and Gandhi was a Brown-South African. Check most current encylopedic info. on the subject. Even these sources support this idea (that American citizens of African descent are African-American, as in American citizens who are ancestrally African). I am sorry if that is the case but, if Bruce Lee can be considered Chinese, though an "American" citizen of at least partial German ancestry, then certainly I can be considered of African Ancestry with no known non-African genes in my gene pool.

Let me conclude by saying this: I believe that the arts of all cultures should be preserved and promoted for the youth of those cultures and our species as a whole. Chinese arts, as are all others, are wonderful expressions of human ingenunity in the face of adversity. These arts are no better or worse than those of my own ancestry; they are simply different. I am not an advocate of mixing cultural paradigms. To me, it is not essential, since I am not of the belief that a specific culture has exhausted every means of problem solving from within its own cultural mileau. Within the matrix of each of these are the germs for problem solving, and one need not reinvent the wheel to do so. Within each cultural are the codification of experiences that may be used as templates for surmounting obstacles. Choy Li Fut and Danmye are but two of these.

My vision is to correct the discrepancies concerning a perception of Africa's contribution to the human experience, to provide means of empowerment for her peoples and, by extention, to do what Chinese elder Bruce Lee sought to accomplish in his life time: using his ancestral martial arts as a vehicle for cultural interaction and, by extention, as a means to finally reach our journey, as a species, towards mutual respect. It is my belief that when the West respects its own traditions, not egocentrically, but fully, as the nurturing empowering tools that traditions provide, that our species will have gone along way towards that goal.

This is not about "Eddie," but, rather, about a paradigm shift that is sorely needed if that mutual respect is to be achieved.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I purchased this set when I first saw the advertisment (I feared there would be a backlash from the way the ad presented the style and the dvds would disappear). I have been interested in seeing Jailhouse Rock for a very long time. When I viewed the set I really did not think too much about what I saw because the Instructor was interacting with people who appeared to be strangers to fighting.

I recently had the opportunity to see footage of Roy Jones Jr (I was lurking at EF :) ). The flavor of Jones's method and that of the Instructor on the tape are identical. I found it ironic because I have always classified Roy Jones Jr's boxing approach as "Enforcer Style."


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-381166862056186274&q=roy+jones

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyZbyg9yULI&search=roy%20jones

Well????


mickey

[SevenStar]

zab judah was interviewed on star and bucwild's morning show about his fight with mayweather. judah said the he knows 52 blocks - His incarcerated uncle taught him. Zab is a brooklyn native.

[htowndragon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etwYO-36Dmw&search=zab%20judah%20

[NeedsPractice]

I have grown up in brooklyn, and still live here outside of martial arts forumsand internet I have neverheard of jailhouse rock as a style per se.Which doenst mean it doenst exist.
Growing up just about everybody practiced boxing or slapboxing to some extent, and some people developed thier own way of moving.
I could definitely see an older brother,relative or friend passing on stuff that he might have picked up in prison or from winning a few fights, but thats the natural progression of martial arts anyway before they get systematic..
I am sure the techniques are nothing special compared to muay thai, wing chun, silat, or kali, but the average guy in jail has his neck on the line and has all the time in the world to train, fight and condition himself so that is a definite edge over somebody who isnt under that kind of pressure. Even the mma guys at the worst have to only take a beating not get beat to death.

[NeedsPractice]

Greetings,

I purchased this set when I first saw the advertisment (I feared there would be a backlash from the way the ad presented the style and the dvds would disappear). I have been interested in seeing Jailhouse Rock for a very long time. When I viewed the set I really did not think too much about what I saw because the Instructor was interacting with people who appeared to be strangers to fighting.

I recently had the opportunity to see footage of Roy Jones Jr (I was lurking at EF :) ). The flavor of Jones's method and that of the Instructor on the tape are identical. I found it ironic because I have always classified Roy Jones Jr's boxing approach as "Enforcer Style."


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-381166862056186274&q=roy+jones

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyZbyg9yULI&search=roy%20jones

Well????


mickey


Tape yourself next time you practice or spar, and watch yourself. Is your style of fighting rythmic? Is the style that you are learning rythmic? Sometimes the rythms are very complex.

[SevenStar]

zab judah was interviewed on star and bucwild's morning show about his fight with mayweather. judah said the he knows 52 blocks - His incarcerated uncle taught him. Zab is a brooklyn native.


who knows... he also commented that he didn't think it was that well known outside of east NY. But all of these people are getting it SOMEWHERE...

[NeedsPractice]

who knows... he also commented that he didn't think it was that well known outside of east NY. But all of these people are getting it SOMEWHERE...


Compared to some places brooklyn is big, but in reality there are only some sections that are a little out of the way,

To someone not from certain areas it may sound "impressive" but growing up
"boxing", and "slap boxing" with other kids ( nearly everybody did) I just see it as a progression of something you did as a kid except now more serious.
Add to that irregular rythmic movement patterns that you learned playing games as a kid................



Somebody mention one style was having your back against a wall and all you did was defend.
Look at how roy jones fights , hands low slipping, ducking and hitting back sometimes before the guy can throw the punch........he said when he was kid he would have to fight with one hand tied behind his back
zab judah same thing sometimes
first you defend , then offense becomes defense...
Is silat still silat without the indonesian rthyms to the movements or is it jujitsu?

[SevenStar]

Compared to some places brooklyn is big, but in reality there are only some sections that are a little out of the way,

To someone not from certain areas it may sound "impressive" but growing up
"boxing", and "slap boxing" with other kids ( nearly everybody did) I just see it as a progression of something you did as a kid except now more serious.
Add to that irregular rythmic movement patterns that you learned playing games as a kid................


I think every kid from any hood has done is share of slap boxing. I grew up in VA and did plenty. I dunno of anyone who took it seriously enough to develop it into their fighting style though. Not in the sense of something they would teach to someone.



Is silat still silat without the indonesian rthyms to the movements or is it jujitsu?

you lost me on that one... the rhythm is characteristic style. look at capoeira, silat, kali... Of course, silat without the rhythm is still silat, but it would be a very different silat.

[NeedsPractice]

My point was that if you emulate a rythmic based fighting style but dont have the rythmic base that it is used with it you will be lacking.
A good example is an article somebody posted on silat and how often(usually) the foreigners who learned silat didnt have the same intensity or way of movement of the indigenous people who brought thier entire cultural experience to it , regardless of how long they practiced it, or how serious a student.

[Prof Myles]

[qwertyuiop

[Shaolindynasty]

I think every kid from any hood has done is share of slap boxing

Slap boxing is a hood thing? I didn't know that. I used to do that all the time when I was young. I figured everybody messed around like that

[NeedsPractice]

My point wasnt that slap boxing is a "hood thing", my point was that alot of kids brought thier own rhythm and ways of movement or style to slap boxing just like they do to basketball or dancing for example, to a degree not seen from "other people". So in that BASIC sense to me 52 blocks or whatever you want to call it is just an extension of that ( slap boxing ).
Simiiar to how there are multiple variations of silat coming from the same culture, or multiple versions of capoiera. Any fighting style that comes from a culture that heavily attached to rythm / music will reflect that to some degree.
Sure people will slap box or play basketball all over the world but you will see differences in how its done, and the degree of originality or conformity.
Looking at the chinese arts from one style to the next you will see different rhythms in the movements and ways of movement from one skilled practioner to the next, look at a more regimented society( japan) while stylistic differences may exist the general movement and rythm of the culture is pretty regimented- less allowance for individuality, finding your own rhythm.

[Eddie]

[qwertyuiop

Wheres the rest of this post? I’d be very interested to hear what a professor had to say about African fighting arts.

[Sho Nuff]

Jail house/ 52 blocks was part of the street culture in NY, not just Brooklyn. Growing up in Harlem during the 70's we all learned a small part of it slap boxing. You wouldn't get the technical details as someone on the inside who is training, but you would learn how to hold your own. You also learned what worked and what didn't....fast. The days of getting a fair one are over.:(

I know you can say kids all over the country slap boxed as kids, but it's not the same. I was a military brat so I was moved around alot. The slap boxing I saw in the other areas didn't look like what we were doing in NY,(as a kid I thought we just didn't things "cooler". We had more style). Not realizing until later why we did things the way we did.

No one stood like a boxer. Our elbows were always up, hands always moving; over our heads, under the elbows. We never asked why we did it that way. You understood once you went up against someone that did.

[nyhakka]

52 Blocks does exist. It isn't seen much anymore even in NYC, but it was popular durind the late 80's, early 90's. Actually, every setion of every boro in NY had it's own style. For example, Brownsville called their fighting style "Never Ran Never Will"(if you can call it a name). Mostly there was Bushwick Style, Morris Pk Style, ect. throughout the 5 Boros. The Zulu Nation, 5 Percenters, and Ball Buster were the most known for having fighters of these style types. they're mostly hybrids from martial artists and militray mean that were incarcerated during the early 70's and focused on techniques that worked in the prison system, combined with the type of "gurrella tactics" that domintes prison life made for an effective style. but it's main downfall was that it was undeciplined, and therefore not many could use the styles sucessfully for very long. Also now people don't give the "fair one" they shoot. Hope this helps.

[Sho Nuff]

The "Ball Busters"!!! Bring back some bad memories with that one. We had a fight with them almost every week. If it wasn't with them, it was with the Black Spades! Our steet training is really how we played outside. Besides the slap boxing and ground fighting we did. We would practice scaling walls. Jumping from high distances. Hurdling the hood of a car in a full run. Every day had the possiblity to be a fight day, or RUN day.

[SevenStar]

until now, I didn't notice the last three replies. TTT for more posts from sho nuff and nyhakka...

[SevenStar]

zab judah has a fight here in may. they say he knows some form of 52

[Faruq]

I picked up a smatterring of Jailhouse Rock,(also called,52 handlocks,52 Blocks,Comstock Shuffle, and others) from someone who was inside, and another friend who was a PO at Rikers. Similarities to Kali, with footwork from Capoeira. (uprock in breakdancing came from the jinga in capoeira) lots of elbows, knees, and a real sneaky hook punch that is delivered nose to nose.(btw-when I teach the hook, this is the one I teach) If this is what he is teaching, it might be good stuff to pick up.
Odds are, he is capitalizing on the name. Jailhouse Rock has an unwritten rule-only taught to Blacks. Kind of like Gung-Fu only taught to Chinese. But it's a matter of time.
It's funny, however to see kids on the street using the moves that they saw someone else do who might have learned it. They are doing the shuffle, bringing their elbows up and slapping them-but when they fight, you cansee they don't know how to use it. It's like seeing guys strike a "Kung-Fu Pose" and then flail like a girl.:D

Sad to say, they took all this information out of the wiki article on it...

[Faruq]

JHR, Comstock, 52 Blocks, etc., is VERY effective. I'm from Brooklyn and have seen it in action many times. You also have to watch out if you're fighting someone and they start calling out numbers. They learn to hide single edge razors in pockets cut into their inner jaw when they're in jail. They can spit one out quickly between their fingers. The numbers called out are a means of intimidation. They are letting you know how many stitches you're going to get after you're slapped across the face of arm with the razor between the fingers. Back in the 70's I used to bring kung fu guys from Chinatown to Brooklyn who said that no street fighter could beat a trained martial artist. They didn't realize that these guys had to train for real on the inside so they won't become bubba's "special" friend or worse. Once they saw the training and some real fights they were convinced. One of the training methods is to stand in a front stance with one heel against a wall. Other inmates will take turns throwing real punches at you and all you can do is block and cover. Ten Tigers was correct. They use lots more creative realistic training methods that are usually only taught to blacks and Latinos.
PR

None of this is in the wiki article. Who'd they get to revise it?

[Yum Cha]

From the vids on youtube (yes, extensive research, I know) you can kinda get a feeling for how the hands work, and I read they use ankle, shin and knee kicks, but didn't see much evidence. I learned some interesting footwork from a Capoera Maestro I know, which was also referenced a bit in the info on 52 origins, and they have a lot of sweeps, foot traps and other groovy stuff besides the well known spinning and crescent high kicks. Maybe this has to do with the definition of "a fair one" vs combat application?

But a funny aside on Capoera, I asked him about 'finishing' and he laughed, "Capoera doesn't finish, we run away! Before, hurt someone and they kill you, trip them and run away is better."

I suppose if you came from a gangster lineage in TCMA you might see some similar attitudes and 'proven' techniques.

[Yum Cha]

A shout out to my a fellow Army Brat - Frankfurt Germany was where I spent my teens and 20s'.

Hey Phil, lots of discussion on the impact of Wing Chun on 52, is that just because its the only 'short arm' Chinese Boxing people know, or do you see anything deeper?

There appears to be a kinda Kata for 52, which has a lot of the same kinda energy as Si Lum Tau, but its done progressively faster? And that 'roll up from from the floor up' looked a bit like chain punching. My thinking it its a bit of the TCMA, but a whole lot of "all roads lead to the same place". Haven't seen any low work, other than the knee to knee or other 'get small, come up big' moves.

Yea, this st1t is interesting, for sure. Plenty to steal. :D The hook with an out stretched hand Ten was talking about. Elbows out, side blocks that work by turning the waist not the shoulders. If you punch an elbow, it goes between the knuckles and roots your hand. The chopping punch is well known in TCMA. I've been putting the hands on the head for years, just like switching from right to left ir-rhythmically.

Every time I watch a fighter, I convert their movement to a kind of music. Its always consistent once you 'see' their music. Your response is like that with any musician, you get the feel only you crash their tune as opposed to harmonise with it, more or less. A bit of both.
Watching these guys, the music is fast and much more like jazz, scary hard to read. Ok, so you'll either think I'm nuts or you'll get it. wtf.

[Faruq]

I didn't believe all those 52 blocks videos on youtube were real 52 blocks because of how lame so many of them look, so I contacted a buddy from bedstuy and asked him. He was telling me most of the knowledge of 52 blocks is now held by 5 per centers, or at least they're the ones that are known for it. I asked him if there were any videos on youtube that represented real 52 blocks, not just "blocking with your elbows and calling it 52 blocks". He sent me the following link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTQbiELBfRw&playnext=1&list=PLAC00523CAD2D505A&feature=results_video. I don't know if you guys'll agree, and I don't expect everyone to, but I just thought I'd share what I got. I figure each person'll like it or not and agree with it or not.

[bawang]

I didn't believe all those 52 blocks videos on youtube were real 52 blocks because of how lame so many of them look, so I contacted a buddy from bedstuy and asked him. He was telling me most of the knowledge of 52 blocks is now held by 5 per centers, or at least they're the ones that are known for it. I asked him if there were any videos on youtube that represented real 52 blocks, not just "blocking with your elbows and calling it 52 blocks". He sent me the following link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTQbiELBfRw&playnext=1&list=PLAC00523CAD2D505A&feature=results_video. I don't know if you guys'll agree, and I don't expect everyone to, but I just thought I'd share what I got. I figure each person'll like it or not and agree with it or not.

i wish i can learn 52 :(

[Faruq]

i wish i can learn 52 :(


Me too Baweezy. But neither of us have the courage to contact those guys at the youtube channel, the money to travel to bedsty, the money to buy the razor blades and the kevlar vests, the discipline to undergo the grueling monkeybar workout training sessions; and lastly, neither of us are in the 5% Nation. So in the heck could we ever learn?

[specialed]

Me too Baweezy. But neither of us have the courage to contact those guys at the youtube channel, the money to travel to bedsty, the money to buy the razor blades and the kevlar vests, the discipline to undergo the grueling monkeybar workout training sessions; and lastly, neither of us are in the 5% Nation. So in the heck could we ever learn?

You can't.

Because it's B/S.

[Snipsky]

You can't.

Because it's B/S

neither can you. that makes you BS too.