Is it good to cross train mantis & san da?

[ChinoXL]

just like the title states.. answer please

[mantid1]

Only if you want to become an effective fighter faster than the average student. If you are not that worried about fighing it should not matter.

[Three Harmonies]

Nothing wrong as long as you are using Mantis principles in your san da. Otherwise why train Mantis?
Cheers
Jake :)

[ChinoXL]

would they mesh together tho?

[Three Harmonies]

I guess I do not understand your question. San Da / San Shou is a general term, not a style. Basically it can be related to Muay Thai. THey took the basic kicks, punches, and throws and now fight in a sport format.
Like I said, if you play Mantis you should be able to transfer those techniques and ideologies over to San Shou formatted rules/competition. So I guess I am saying that if you have the right teacher this should not have to be a consideration. Make sense?
Cheers
Jake :)

[phoenixdog]

In my experience mantis does not cross over well into gloved fighting because you loose the trapping,hooking,clawing attributes of mantis and forearm blows are illegal in san da.Also most mantis (not all) uses an elbow out position and chopping style punching that does not do well in full contact with gloves.This is also why an art like hsing-i does well in gloved fighting.The best mantis technique against a skilled boxer using USA rules is to intercept and overhand right,since that is legal an unseen in most traditional boxing training,a very mantis technique,aka kwa.I also re-iterate my view of Tiffaney Chin at Nick Scrima's 2004 san da tourney,tai chi in boxing gloves,western boxing with tai chi power,nerely knocked out every opponent,surely she cross trained in western boxing.In my view,mantis is like a vicous but scientific street fighting method and not a ring sport method,you take the gloves off,anything goes and it goes quick,not by the 3 minute clock,...crush,destroy,hook,rip,overwhelm...walk away.

[Emeraldphoenix]

Exactly. Well Said.

[Three Harmonies]

I have heard a lot of the same thing from many people. Unfortunately many people are not taught the finer points of the Mantis "hooking" if you will. The hook is certainly a physical technique utilized without gloves, but the concepts behind the hooking hand are surely usable with boxing gloves on. The concept of "nian" or sticking for instance. This is key when applying the "hook hand" (guo shou) surely, but one can still stick to their opponents technique (in your example an arm) with a boxing glove on.
See what I mean? A small example. Never limit yourselves physically nor mentally. No one art is "more" suited for san shou than another!

Cheers
Jake :)

[ChinoXL]

interesting... interesting.. i love the comments.. can anybody eloberate more :D my opinion is shifting.. back and forth lols

[Emeraldphoenix]

Correct me if i am wrong Jake.[Biggie groupie here]. Train, train,train your Mantis and then start to move into contact fighting. You can apply Mantis Tech. when fighting with gloves and gear. You will have to adapt certain tech. to the gear and rules. My point is that I see alot of Styles that train sets and drills, But then when they spar, they just kick box or slug fest it out. As Jake said A good Teacher should ensure this does not happen. If your school trains in both, this should be ok. I do not recommend training in 2 different systems[ex. Mantis and a different system that is using San dao] The old saying applies here, You cant serve 2 masters. 1 is bound to get robbed of your full attention and this can also slow down your conscious integration of the 1 system and confuse your mind and body. That is not to say that there are some systems that do compliment eachother. For instance Tai chi and your system. That was just to head off all you guys on that little niche. Become adept in 1 system first and you will be able to apply it in contact fighting. Just the rambling of a mad man here. Hope it was of some help.

[Three Harmonies]

You got the right idea bro!
Who be u?
Cheers
Jake :)

[ChinoXL]

thx guys.. i guess i'mma stick with mantis i was going to start off with both..

[green_willow]

I have heard a lot of the same thing from many people. Unfortunately many people are not taught the finer points of the Mantis "hooking" if you will. The hook is certainly a physical technique utilized without gloves, but the concepts behind the hooking hand are surely usable with boxing gloves on. The concept of "nian" or sticking for instance. This is key when applying the "hook hand" (guo shou) surely, but one can still stick to their opponents technique (in your example an arm) with a boxing glove on.
See what I mean? A small example. Never limit yourselves physically nor mentally. No one art is "more" suited for san shou than another!

Cheers
Jake :)

Gloves limits the use but doesn't completely take it away. If you're fighting in a tournemant, rules can take that advantage away if you're prevented from hitting the opponents arms or sticking - like boxing.

[MightyB]

You ever hear of flowery fists and feathery kicks?

San Da / San Shou is a set of rules for a type of "challenge". It's a "safe" way for you to test your mettle. The question is, do you have the cajones to truly challenge another skilled opponent who you don't know? My advice is that anyone who is young enough that truly wants to become a martial master should fight in San Shou / San Da. It doesn't matter if you win or lose, but you should fight at least once. It changes your whole perspective on the martial arts (for the better). You will be more focused and train more efficiently. People who've never fought will never know this, and are most likely going to be the ones who come up with a bogus set of arguments based on false assumptions about why you shouldn't fight in a San Shou or a San Da tournement.

Shuai (throwing), Na (locking), Ti (kicking), Da (hitting) are the external basis for any martial artist. You should strive to master all of these and that requires cross training.

San Shou is a good way to test where you are at mentally and physically as a fighting martial artist.

[mantid1]

Mighty B

I agree with you 100%


If you want to be a fighter you have to fight.

This does not mean that only the people who want to fight are the only ones who can study praying mantis. Everyone can benifit from this art and even increase their ablility to defend themselves. I dont think they will reach their full potential without the full contact. Two person drills and forms do help.

[Mika]

I am with phoenixdog on this one. I have trained both the modern way (Sport Sanda) and now recently the traditional way (Chuji and Zhongji Sanda), and I must say the differences are immense.

One thing that always comes up: injuries. Well, no. Look at MMA: if we take the average amateur MMA fighter, he isn't any more injured than your average amateur Sanda fighter.

Get a pair of MMA gloves and a teacher who knows how to apply Mantis with them (the traditional way), and you're on your way. :)

EDIT: I do think, however, that Mantis can be applied on lei tai or ring or whatever (because it seems phoenixdog may not that think that). But not with gloves.

[phoenixdog]

Without a doubt,any mantis principle can be applied in any fighting venue.In the clinch in western boxing,you can use stick,adhere,lean,etc,just as Jake commented.....but it's difficult to pull an opponent off balance with gloves on.

[Three Harmonies]

Not if you use whole body power. The energy/power does not come from the hand, but rather from the pelvic girdle/waist/kua, so it matter not what the hands are doing.
Cheers
Jake :)

[MightyB]

Note: this post only applies to the humans that lurk quietly on this board. I know that most of you are superhuman and fight like Jet Li in New Fist of Legend, but there are humans on this board who don't say much and like to contemplate other people's opinions once in awhile.
---

I've been thinking about this thread and the thread of the rooftop video and I've come up with a hypothesis about TCMA, or any traditional art that focuses on self defense.

We have a lot of techniques that could be used regardless of what type of gloves we're wearing, so I don't buy the argument about gloves being the problem. If you du sou properly, you're forearms deflect the incoming punch even if you miss the hook. Foom sou and tu sou can be applied with practice, etc...

So what's really going on? My theory is that two things are constantly being reinforced to a student when they practice defensive martial arts (most TCMA falls into this category). One is conscious, and the other is subconscious. Consciously, we're tought everything from a defensive standpoint, every technique depends on a person doing something to you. Subconsciosly, you're tought that only bad things can happen if you are the aggressive, offensive person. This is reinforced both in forms and applications. What ends up happening is that as MAists, we become to defensive in our mindset.

I've personally felt the result of this type of training in both continuous and full contact fighting. What happened to me is an actual physical restraint on my fighting. It was very hard to move against the opponent in an offensive manner. I was pretty much a fish out of water in the ring. This wasn't how I was before I started MArts, and it's not how I am now, but, at the time, physically and mentally it was very hard to move (in my opinion) because of the constant defensive training and mental conditioning that it's bad to be the offensive fighter that I had undergone.

I, like other people, had to look outside to find my offense. So, like many people, I began to imitate offensive styles that I don't have coaching in like TKD, Thai Boxing, Western Boxing, etc. Over the years I've gotten good at doing this, but it was an inefficient way to learn.

So, here's my challenge to people who want to really put their mark on Mantis or any TCMA: Develop core strategies, philosophies, and techniques that adhere to the principals of mantis that are purely offensive (not defensive, not dependent on somebody doing something to you)-- codify, and ring test those strategies, and pass them on.

(read Bruce Lee for an example of how to do this. Trying to develop an offensive chinese martial art is the true core philosophy of JKD)