Great posts from MP and Ray Pina....

[Fu-Pow]

I pulled these tidbits out of the MMA thread because I thought they were so interesting and insightful and a lot of truth to them. This is where that thread should have gone before it was derailed...so maybe we can pick it up here:


I have, and continue to, take issue with the idea that "CMAers don't compete in the ring because CMA is for the street and ringfighting is a sport." To me, the logic that rules this statement is circular.

Let's break this statement down. What is really being said is "CMAers don't compete in these venues because of the rules." Ok. What do the rules prohibit? They prohibit techniques that arguably cause serious, permanent injury or death.

Well and good.

By saying that CMAers don't compete because of the rules, they are saying, in essence, that CMA relies on "dirty tricks" for lack of a better term for the bulk of its fighting. Groin shots, kicks to the head while down, eye gouges, etc.

But to deliver those blows, you must have sound fighting basics. You must be well versed in punch/kick/throw. A knee to the groin doesn't magically deliver itself. You must have timing, accuracy, footwork, precision, spatial awareness, etc. To kick an opponent in the head on the ground, you must have got them there somehow. That assumes a modicum of takedown skill, a well placed blow that crumples the opponent, etc. If you have those things, then the "dirty tricks" aren't your only option. You are, in fact, able to punch/kick/throw with the best of them. In fact, you MUST be able to do those things, or you wouldn't be able to effectively deliver the "dirty trick."

In short, if you can't fight without the "dirty tricks", then you can't fight. But if you can't win without them, then there is a good chance you aren't going to win with them either, because when you encounter somebody who is a better fighter, you won't be able to fight well enough to deliver them effectively on that better fighter. You might get lucky, of course. If a CMA guy beats an MMAer on the street, its not because he was able to knee him in the nuts. It's because he was better (at least for that moment). Conversely, if a CMA guy loses to the MMAer in the ring, it's not because he COULDN'T knee him in the nuts. It's because he was the worse fighter (at least for that moment).

Also, the idea of "the rules" being an issue is a bit silly because, unless you have an exceptionally high number of one-eyed training partners and death in your school, everybody trains with some sort of rules. What people really wind up arguing about is which set of rules is BETTER. Is it better to remove "dangerous" techniques and practice everything full speed? Or is it better to leave them in and "pull" some shots? It's not a question of HAVING rules, it's a question of WHICH SET people like better.

Last on this issue - in the ring, all people have the same rules. So everybody is equally limited. You can't knee him in the nuts - but he can't knee you in the nuts either, etc. Again, if you can fight, this shouldn't be a world of limitation.

If CMAers aren't doing much ring competition, it may because they don't care about it. And that's fine. But talking about the rules seems very much like a flawed argument, for the reasons I listed.

For the potentially hard of reading, again, I am using "dirty tricks" as a catch-all for lack of a better term, and so I don't have to list them all individually.






These have become very predictable.....

The "traditionalists" who don't fight, never fight, say they could beat the well trained guy if he could only kick him in the balls or poke him in the eyes not realising that the other guy's targeting system can change too ..... and he strikes better, has more agression and experience not being hit.

Then there's MMA-type guys who jump down the traditionalist's throats.... but they don't fight either. They learned to roll a little bit but don't like to get hit. Or their school doesn't push the fact that fights might end on the ground often enough but they rarely start there .... you need to handle a grown man throwing fists and elbows at your face.

For every 20 of the above type (probably more) there is someone who does train hard, does test their stuff out .... regretably their words often carry the same weight as the other two, sometimes less -- because the other two are well versed on the "supposed to" and all the generally accepeted dogmas spewed in martial media and websites.

[Knifefighter]

Then there's MMA-type guys who jump down the traditionalist's throats.... but they don't fight either. They learned to roll a little bit but don't like to get hit. Or their school doesn't push the fact that fights might end on the ground often enough but they rarely start there .... you need to handle a grown man throwing fists and elbows at your face."

MMA guys, by definition, train striking. It's the pure grapplers who sometimes get a rude awakening when faced with strikes.

[CoRWiN]

What us CMA'ers really should do is go to the tournaments, and fight our styles to our hearts content. If we get disqualified we get disqualified. At least it's making a statment.

[Merryprankster]

What us CMA'ers really should do is go to the tournaments, and fight our styles to our hearts content. If we get disqualified we get disqualified. At least it's making a statment.

I can't imagine what statement that would be. If I went to a boxing tournament and did nothing but takedowns, I think that would be pretty lousy.

[rogue]

Just another argument to protect someones belief in their styles superiority MP. The same one was made in another thread about someone being picked on by some TKDers.

[hskwarrior]

corwin,

i understand what you mean. when my students go into tourney's i tell them don't expect to win. but go out there and demonstrate our style like it should be done.

attached is a picture i took of my students' first tournament. it was a 5 point round and i entered my guy into the beginner's level. as you can see the guy he matched up with was a at least a few ranks above a beginner and from what i understand is that the guy my student only entered to beginner levels so he can have an easy match and win a trophy. this guy dropped rank to win one.

anyways,even thought my student lost his first match, he did manage to get an impressive 4 out of 5 points on his first try.

check out attached photo

[CoRWiN]

That's a great start for your student warrior.

That statment is "Look here we are, and this is how we fight." Simple enough. Now that's interesting though that you make a remark about a grappler entering a boxing match and getting disqualified, becuase that is exactly the opposite of your argument. The people who enter tournements are trainning for the tournements. That means their adjusting their trainning to whatever the particular rules are. Tradition goes right out the window. Have to admit i've buckled on this myself, i'm looking to do some San Da soon and am trainning with head gear, gloves, and shin pads as well as no shoes.

When we argue about competitions take in mind that their are MANY different types of competitions. Some don't even allow backhands a staple move in my repetoire. In order for me to compete in an event like that i would have to defeat muscle memory. Why on earth would i ever want to do that?! I went to a Kung-Fu school to study Kung-Fu, and i came to a Kung-Fu forum to talk about .... guess what Kung-Fu.

[Merryprankster]

Corwin, I think I misunderstood you.

I thought you were advocating going out there and ignoring the rules - which I think is kind of lousy. What it seems you are actually saying is "just get out there and do it, and if you happen to violate the rules via instinct or muscle memory and get disqualified, so be it." I disagree strongly with the former, and while I am philosophically against the latter in that I think it is detrimental to the competitor, there is nothing ethically wrong with it.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.



as you can see the guy he matched up with was a at least a few ranks above a beginner and from what i understand is that the guy my student only entered to beginner levels so he can have an easy match and win a trophy.

HATE when people do this. These are the true ego-hounds in competition. Not the honest competitors putting it on the line.

[Matrix]

anyways,even thought my student lost his first match, he did manage to get an impressive 4 out of 5 points on his first try.I think both the experience and success should breed confidence in the student for further training. Great effort. :)

[hskwarrior]

the one in the photo (in the red shirt) is my student. he had never had a street fight in his life prior to this match. And, they (i had two students competing) had only trained to compete for about 2 weeks. but i had them drill in three different manners.

the 1st was for 5 mins one would have to defend (only) against someone throwing a wide variety of techniques. the job was to block, evade, and just plain be out of the way....this is good for both parties because they get to use their techniques on each other.

the next they switched positions and one would be on the offense while the other was in defense mode. another was to evade kicks without the use of your hands.

the third 5 min round i let them go at it using all they learned. they felt this helped them to get the points they did.

now, one of them landed a double over the head back hands (CLF Kwa choy's) right on the guys nose. almost got dq'd. but the Mario (the one in red) dropped the guy on his back after that kick the other guy threw. mario turned his head to look at me to see what he should do next. i got animated telling him to pound him and he did. the guy wearing the gi looked at the ref and the ref said "you weren't protecting your self".

that match was very motivational for them. they couldn't wait to enter another one. they were pumped the whole night.

as their teacher i couldn't have asked for more. they put to use the gung fu i taught them and it worked for them. however they lost, but gained some confidence.

peace.

and oh yeah, those guys in his group all dropped rank to fight beginners. thats weak as hell.

[chud]

MMA guys, by definition, train striking.

Yes, but to varying degrees. When I used to post at Sherdog (*shudder*), I knew there were some amateur fighters there who were BJJ guys whose training in strikes was nothing more than one or two boxing lessons, or practicing combinations to the Bas Rutten MMA Workout tape. Point being that their ground skills were way more developed than their striking skills, which were simply an afterthought. Such a fighter would have his a$$ handed to him by a traditional chinese martial artist who was able to avoid the shoot.


It's the pure grapplers who sometimes get a rude awakening when faced with strikes.

Exactly.

[Matrix]

and oh yeah, those guys in his group all dropped rank to fight beginners. thats weak as hell.Yeah. we've all seen that stunt before. You're right it's weak, and what's worse is that the guys who do this know it. I guess they're in it for the plastic trophies. :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

if anyone watched Chuck Liddell defend his title recently, you will know that lidell tossed the guy around and avoided the shoot every single time.

so its defintely possible to avoid the shoot.

[hskwarrior]

i guess thats the way it is huh matrix?

[SimonM]

Some don't even allow backhands a staple move in my repetoire. In order for me to compete in an event like that i would have to defeat muscle memory. Why on earth would i ever want to do that?!

Corwin just a bit of advice about backhands.

They can be useful if you can pull them off. A successful backhand brings the pain. You have the rotational momentum of your entire body in it and are striking with a particularly hard part of your hand. Despite the warning I'm about to give you I have used backhands in competition. In fact I've dropped people with a single backhand BUT they are really risky.

When you throw a backhand there are a few things that are detrimental you must consider.

1: They take a lot of time to execute compared to a jab, reverse, hook or uppercut.
2: You are momentarily turning your back on your opponent. It might just be for a moment but a lot can happen in a few seconds in a fight.
3: With that much rotational momentum built up it is quite easy to over-commit. This can leave you open AFTER you execute the strike. What that means is that if you don't connect expect your opponent to get at least one shot in on you. And if they are a grappler it will be easier than normal to tip you off balance.

What does this all mean?

You shouldn't rely on these as bread and butter. This is an "****! I have a shot to get this through" technique. AND you have to be fast and sneaky to pull it off even then.

P.S. I am posting this here because it relates to stuff discussed in the "what really works" thread before it became a running flame war of Knifefighter vs. various students and grandstudents of CTS. It's a link to a thread over on the Southern Chinese Gong Fu page that highlights a point I was trying to make. Ghetto Blocks / 52 Blocks thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=654716#post654716)

[hskwarrior]

backfists,

simon, the kind of back fist you describe is more like a spinning back fist. is that right?

but, backfists ---whether they are parallel to the floor, over the top or spinning, a properly placed back hand can knock someone out quickly. but you are right, it can also get you in trouble. but, i would never throw a back hand as a first attack.

[SimonM]

Yeah. Spinning was what I was describing.

[CoRWiN]

Thanks for the advice with the spinning backfist Simon. I totally agree it is a risky manuever definitly not one to start with. A flurry of punches followed by a spinning back fist would be the way to go. The stance work is where you get all the power but also can give away the move. Showing your back is never good. After doin the spinning a couple of times do the combo then go into stealing step as you would to generate force for spin, but the step in and change it up. When i made the comment backfist i was really refering to a simple checking backfist. I fight with my strong hand forward, my right. This allows me to quickly check and counter with a backfist. This is not some theory either, i test this out every friday night with huge success.

This tournement discussion as really got me thinking lately, so i just want to put up some analegous cause they always help me get to the truth. I play chess and in chess i have very specific strategies and moves. Now if i took out my knights from the get go (as in take away certain moves) would i still be playing chess? I don't know.. If i had to compete in a match like that the winner would be a combination of who was the better player and who could adapt. Now let's say someone spent the time to actually practice without knights, clearly that person would have a huge advantage over someone who hadn't, but add those knights and you would have a decidedly different outcome. And were talking an entirely cererbral contest here.

Muscle memory is no joke to overcome. Just imagine Derek Jeter gets told all game instead of throwing to first he has to throw to home. He's gonna mess up, simple as that. Maybe not a lot but it will happen. To us CMA guys one mistake is all it takes to lose. When i get into a fight i don't want to be thinking, i want it all to flow. That's why we practice forms over, and over. That's why we practice application drills over and over. In fact i think the form developed muscle memory is in fact our greatest strength. How often do you see grapplers doin forms?! They NEED people to train with, unless their doin conditioning. Putting CMA's in a situation where they have to think about ever move eliminates our greatest strength.

Here's the real solution to all our problems, have matches that have no rules, simple as that. Those of us that would compete can prove tradition right and those of us that don't have a perfectly justifable reason not to; why seek out death.

Stop the Flame...

[Merryprankster]

How often do you see grapplers doin forms?! They NEED people to train with, unless their doin conditioning.

Actually, shadow wrestling (its like shadow boxing) is a big part of most high school and college wrestling programs. It teaches you excellent balance, focus and recovery if you miss (since there is no opponent, everything is a "miss," so you have to be very aware of what you are doing/what is going on or fall over).

It's essentially a spontaneous form.

Drills of various sorts are also a major portion of grappling training. Some are partner drills. Some are not.

I disagree with your thoughts on tournament rules. Like anything else, these competitions are a spectrum, running from, say, wrestling tournaments what have no striking or submissions, and on the striking side "point sparring" tournaments all the way through a genuine street fight.

In order to deliver "x" technique, you must establish good fighting skill. Those skills are built around punch/kick/throw/locks (and all the things they entail, like timing, defense, etc). Whatever they may be built on (such as good stance training, etc), or whatever emphasis they receive (obviously, a boxer focuses on punching, an SC guy focuses on throwing, etc), I think we can reasonably assert that in the broad sense, this covers the core skills of fighting. If you can't do these things with competency, then anything else you think you might like to do in a match is going to be rather hard to deliver.

A person with reasonably good core skills should be able to represent those in a format that allows them. MMA formats allow all of these skills to be used, with some restrictions. These restrictions, however, do not usually eliminate or seriously limit the core skill sets of fighting.

In your chess analogy, there are two things to remember:

1. The game is still recognizably chess. The other rule sets remain in place. The gameplay is still the same, and the general principles of chess still apply.

2. BOTH sides suffer the same limitations.

Now, certainly a person who practices without knights will have an advantage over the person who does not. However, the question remains: How big of an advantage is that?

That depends entirely upon the difference in basic skill between the players. Between two closely matched opponents, the loss of the knights MIGHT have an impact on the outcome, if one practices without them. Between an international grandmaster and a novice, not having knights is not the reason the novice is going to lose.

My point is this: It is very rare to have two so closely matched opponents. More likely, one is superior to the other for that moment in time. Simple statistics bears this out - the likelihood of meeting your precise equal is some constant c/x, while the likelihood of meeting somebody of a different skill level is x-c/x. And x is much much bigger than c.

That's my take - rule restrictions (within reason - obviously a non-boxing wrestler entering a boxing match is in trouble) matter very little unless the two opponents are VERY closely matched. And even if they are, they may not have much impact on the outcome, since the core skill sets are more important determinants.

[CoRWiN]

I completly acknowledge the drills of wrestling. I have many friends who do BJJ and they tell me all the time about their trainning. Almost all of them unless their body conditioning though are partner drills. See i believe that's their greatest strength as well. They have constant one on one's during trainning. It creates a level of comfortability. I'm trying to merge the trainning together, by creating mirror forms, as in a whole serious of movements that are essentially the applications of the various CLF forms. This would allow to CLF practitioners to practice their forms and applications together at the same time.

[SimonM]

No problem on the advice. Honestly I have no clue how much martial experience you have but I've been around the block a few times now and have learned a thing or two about fighting I don't mind sharing. ;)

PS: Partner forms are fun and all but what you want - to mirror the alive training done in other martial arts is not partner forms. It's sparring. I usually sparred at least once each class back in Canada. This is not so possible here in China to my perpetual chagrin. :cool:

[CoRWiN]

Sorry merry i'm gonna have to completly disagree with you on this one. By restricting movements you are changing fighters as a whole. Let's even go more basic, all techniques are allowed BUT fighter shave to wear gloves. What a huge impact that has on the techniques. And the fighter that always trains with gloves his going to have a huge advantage over the fighter that does not, simple as that. Remeber were still talking about something that is committed to muscle memory as well.

Simon i feel to go from forms to sparring is missing a step. There's this inbetween step where you put to memeory the techniques done in forms in the prescense of another. It's like going from crawling to running before walking.

[Merryprankster]

Then we'll agree to disagree. A punch is still a punch. A kick is a kick. A throw is a throw. The basic mechanics of these movements do not change, whether I am buck naked, using boxing gloves, or wearing a clown costume. Or some combination of the three....

Sure, I can't grab with my hands, but I can use underhooks, overhooks, quite nicely, etc.

It is not a fundamentally different game, provided we limit the discussion to rules sets that are within reason, as before, obviously a wrestling match and a boxing match are quite different.

[rogue]

CoRWiN which techniques are you talking about? It's been my experience that many of the fine motor techniques don't come into play when someone is under an adreneline dump.

[CoRWiN]

My argument is actually supported by the adreneline pump. For instance when fighting i often try to think back to the moves i used and have a hard time remembering, the reason is i didn't think about them, i just reacted. My reactions came about due to constant trainning and drilling. When you add things like gloves i'm not saying suddenly your crippled, but it changes the scenario ever so. It slows down your punches, it allows turtling defences, it changes the landscape of a fight. Someone who trains with gloves is use to this and has appropriately adapted his trainning. Us CLF guys though have to..

A. Adjust to the changes
B. Question our reactions
C. Unable to respond in appropriate fashion even if we see an opening do to time lost processing information

Fluiditity is lost.

LoL rogue thanks for painstakingly capping the letters i do as well, but don't sweat it.

[rogue]

Can I ask how you train? I usually don't use gloves and head gear and I'll admit that I wouldn't consider what I do full-force contact.

[CoRWiN]

Rogue, if u could be a little more specific about how i train?

[SimonM]

Simon i feel to go from forms to sparring is missing a step. There's this inbetween step where you put to memeory the techniques done in forms in the prescense of another. It's like going from crawling to running before walking.


I'm not suggesting that Corwin.

If I were running a gym (and I am not in fact I refused to start teaching late last year when a few of my ESL students suggested it) I'd structure the lesson somewhat like this:

30 minutes warm ups and contidioning drills
30 minutes forms practice
40 minutes drills (partner drills, focus pad drills, etc.)
20 minutes full-contact sparring

With occasional 1-2 minute breaks as needed.

I think Rogue was interested in knowing your sparring methodology.

Now Rogue wasn't asking me but for sake of example I PREFER full-contact untimed with mouthguard personally but not many people go for that these days so I fall back to timed (2 minute round) full-contact with gloves, mouthguard and headgear. That is until my bro comes out to visit me and I get to have a real fight again. :p

[rogue]

Rogue, if u could be a little more specific about how i train?

Sorry, sparring without gloves.

[SevenStar]

My argument is actually supported by the adreneline pump. For instance when fighting i often try to think back to the moves i used and have a hard time remembering, the reason is i didn't think about them, i just reacted. My reactions came about due to constant trainning and drilling. When you add things like gloves i'm not saying suddenly your crippled, but it changes the scenario ever so. It slows down your punches, it allows turtling defences, it changes the landscape of a fight. Someone who trains with gloves is use to this and has appropriately adapted his trainning. Us CLF guys though have to..

A. Adjust to the changes
B. Question our reactions
C. Unable to respond in appropriate fashion even if we see an opening do to time lost processing information

Fluiditity is lost.

LoL rogue thanks for painstakingly capping the letters i do as well, but don't sweat it.


I disagree with this. gloves don't slow you down that much. Not so much that you can't cope with it in a fight situation. In a fight situation, you won't have time to question your reactions. You will either fight or get pummelled. If you are unable to respond in an appropriate fashion, then there is a flaw in something you are doing, I'd imagine. With techniques I use, whether I am gloved or not, a clinch is a clinch. I can do it with gloves or without. I can punch with gloves or without. you can turtle with or without gloves.

adrenaline dump will cause you to forget that which is not ingrained. However, if your core skills of ti, da, shuai and na are throroughly trained, you should be fine with gloves.

[ShaolinTiger00]

If my team wasn't wearing 16 oz gloves when doing standup training people would be ktfo on a daily basis. actually we train with 16 oz. gloves and headgear and we still get flash ko's at times.

It's impossible to train hard striking without the appropriate gear on a regular and continued basis and anyone saying different either hits like a ***** or spars once a month.

In otherwords I'm saying that the tcma guys who say that you do regular hard sparring with no gloves are either liars or delusional about your skills.

Step up and prove otherwise..

[WinterPalm]

I train without and with gloves. Both are different arenas but both offer good things. My sparring is usually medium to heavy and allows for all techniques except groin, eyes, and throat, but neck is allowed. We don't train to hurt each other but to exploit each other's weaknesses, have the same done to us and then to learn how to protect agains that. We also train in restraint but the more we train, the less we pull our shots and the more intense it gets. There are sometimes good shots landed, when someone missed a block, and there have been ko's and missing teeth from what I've heard. Sparring without gloves really keeps you on the ball and trains you to really use your DEFENSE skills which are almost absent in the UFC. Think about the boxing cover, try that without gloves, all of a sudden all the shots fit right in. Go watch Liddell vs Ortiz...that is a perfect example of training with big gloves and suddenly exposed with the four ounce gloves.
With gloves we go pretty hard at an intense level.
Remember, we aren't training to beat people up, we are training to protect ourselves and fight if we have to.

[KC Elbows]

My experience with and without gloves is the same, and I think both are helpful for different reasons.

For the most part, I agree with the whole "contact versus static" points being raised.

MP mentioned the ground shadow boxing or whatever he called it, I've never seen that. For the most part my ground work is weak, I've learned little bits as I go along, but since my interest in it began, I basically have time to work out, which I wish I had more time for, and time to just maintain my fighting, so my ground stayed weak. I don't know a lot of ground technique, and the only thing I have going for me is that I'm pretty good at keeping my limbs from being easy targets and I focus on working on position more than specific techniques, plus I'm big.

As for two man sets, the problem I see with some of them, not the one move thingies, but the whole big choreographed sets, is the ones I've seen always seem to have moves where I go "If that other guy were really pressing on that move, really using it, the other guy would have structure problems, not be in the stance he's in," especially in the case where a defense used is an offensive one.