Shaolin Vagabond Guy

[CFREW]

Hi All, im a southern practiconer, an im just interested in what you guys think of this guy, is this guy legit, because his form seems a bit weak, im trying to offend any one, i just want to know, what you northern practiconers think

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4068098743114389344&q=shaolin

thanks all

[Fen]

This has been worked over on another forum (http://www.fu-ragz.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=231) already....



~Jason

[Pk_StyLeZ]

no power in it what so ever
stances are kind of high
back sweep is very high, guy need to stretch more
form is very clear, but would be better if he had power in it

[GeneChing]

...As Wing Lam's former head Sil Lum instructor, he has the external form as it was taught at Lam Kwoon. I don't recognize the guy, but I relinquished my title there over half a decade a go, so there's plenty of Lam Kwoon people I don't know and who probably don't know me. But I'd say he's still a Lam Kwoon decendent because the moves are all in the right place, more or less. He's about where someone who just learned the form might be - has the pattern but hasn't even begun to do the work - the REAL work. There are many missing details. He could be a video student, but I'm guessing he isn't. Remember I wrote those videos. For the earlier sets, I can usually pinpoint some one who's learned from videos pretty easily. He missed a detail early on that was quite explicit in the videos. Now, he could have just overlooked that when he watched the videos, but since it was early on and since it was explicit, I'm inclined to beleive it was a person-to-person transmission. My guess is that he learned it from Lam Kwoon or a student of Lam Kwoon. It's a shame that he posted it, since it reflects poorly on Lam Kwoon students. We've had much better students, of course. And that queue, that queue just kills me. :rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

And that queue, that queue just kills me. :rolleyes:

If that bugs you, check out his nipple ring here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3390870140645653219

[sean_stonehart]

I like this performance better... http://www.harmoniousfist.com/8web.mov

[GeneChing]

I'm told that if you yank on the nipple ring of an iron body master, it's like pulling the plug on your bathtub drain. All the qi just pours out. Remember that if some dude in a queue attacks you with bot bo (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13142) ;) . Actually, I like the queue. We Chings like them. Ok, that's a pun, my Ching is not the dynastic Qing.

Does anyone know what lineage sean_stonehart's post above is from? It reminds me of a mainland version of #5 I once saw - very wushu-ish...

[sean_stonehart]

I'm told that if you yank on the nipple ring of an iron body master, it's like pulling the plug on your bathtub drain. All the qi just pours out. Remember that if some dude in a queue attacks you with bot bo (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13142) ;) . Actually, I like the queue. We Chings like them. Ok, that's a pun, my Ching is not the dynastic Qing.

Does anyone know what lineage sean_stonehart's post above is from? It reminds me of a mainland version of #5 I once saw - very wushu-ish...

Gene... it's from Sifu Kisu's school in LA. www.harmoniousfist.com

[GeneChing]

Is that one of Kisu's students? That's what I should have asked...

[Fen]

...As Wing Lam's former head Sil Lum instructor, .......

For the earlier sets, I can usually pinpoint some one who's learned from videos pretty easily. He missed a detail early on that was quite explicit in the videos. Now, he could have just overlooked that when he watched the videos,

If you look at his Lien Bu (http://www.youtube.com/watch.php?v=erPSK4GS5v8&search=shaolin)

LIN BO KIN (Practice footwork)
1. Yin yang hands facing each other.
2. Grabbing hand, palm chop.
3. Turn around, open the door hand technique.
4. Following step, straight (Chinese character "sun") punch
5. Chopping hand under the arm pit.
6. Immortal carries firewood with a yoke.
7. Break hand grip, palm push.
8. Grabbing hand, hammer strike.
and in 23. Grabbing hand, hammer strike.

He does a side step #8 & 23 Grabbing hand, hammer strike When SilLumKid and I where looking at the vids, He said we do not do that in class. I will ask Wing Sifu? Wing Sifu, said "we do not do that in our class" But I did ask Gene today and he remmbers doing a side step though. So I gess it can be ether way...

Note: When I got the set We did not have the side step... As for the one I teach now. Jing Mo Version

~Jason

[beiquan]

Is that one of Kisu's students? That's what I should have asked...

Yes actually it is Sifu's son.

[GeneChing]

...we were introduced a long time ago. He's grown. Now that I think about it, I seem to recall discussing adding more flair to BSL sets for tournaments with Kisu. Ah, my memory nowadays...:rolleyes:

As for the Lian Bu (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12351), we did it the hammer fist with a flanking step when I was with Lam Sifu. Maybe he changed it. We all have that perogative and he has changed sets before. Since it was a military set, and very very simple, there are so many versions. The queued gentleman who has elicited this thread, his LBQ is very close to Lam Sifu's (at least as I recall it) - the only major variation is the elbow strikes (in horse not bow) and the cat stance down chop block, which is basically the same structurally but has a different feel. I hope that individual stuck with BSL. He's got a solid physique and a decent horse stance. He just needs to find more life in the BSL movements. Too stiff.

[CLFNole]

I think the guy mentioned at first should spend more time practicing and less time trying to look like a monk that stole Fong Sai Yuk's hair.

Why does kung fu attract all the nuts?

[David Jamieson]

I think the guy mentioned at first should spend more time practicing and less time trying to look like a monk that stole Fong Sai Yuk's hair.

Why does kung fu attract all the nuts?

the queue looks goofy...on anyone really. :p as for all the nuts, I thought those were the right wingers with guns?

[green_willow]

Hi All, im a southern practiconer, an im just interested in what you guys think of this guy, is this guy legit, because his form seems a bit weak, im trying to offend any one, i just want to know, what you northern practiconers think

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4068098743114389344&q=shaolin

thanks all

hahahaha I like the music that goes with it. so is this a trailer for a movie where he takes revenge on the Boss who does his sifu in?

[shaolinboxer]

Could one of the brave lads on the forum please challenge him to a death match due to his hair?

[GeneChing]

Come on now, he's a wayward BSL cousin. Someone must know who he is. With a little coaching and a lot of heart, he could be an asset to the family.

And given my hair dramatics, I'd be the last one to bust anyone about hair styles...:o

[CLFNole]

Yeah the hair could always double as an additional weapon like Ku Feng in the Shaw Brothers classic Avenging Eagle. Or its always cool to wrap it around your neck just before opening up a can of whoop arse. :D

Peace.

[Lokhopkuen]

>I should have recognized him...
...we were introduced a long time ago. He's grown. Now that I think about it, I seem to recall discussing adding more flair to BSL sets for tournaments with Kisu. Ah, my memory nowadays... <

Ha ha! Gene you met my 6 year old (at the time) son Arjuna
http://www.harmoniousfist.com/photosfriends.html
Not my older son Ryan who was 17 at the time that vid was shot.
Does it really look like wu shu? D a m n!!
We are traditional Northern Shaolim (sic) in the flavor of the Hui style.
I think we had the adding flair discussion down in Texas at Tai Chi Legacy a few years ago?


Peace

[iron_silk]

:eek:

http://www.youtube.com/w/end-of-class?v=Eqlcwtt-88E&search=shaolin

I can't believe it...I think i seen this exercise done in Shaolin Temple movie with Jet Li.

But this...this just doesn't look right at all.

[GeneChing]

Lokhopkuen: I thought we had that flair discussion at Berkeley when I met your younger son, but I couldn't remember when that was. You'd think I could have done the math and figured that was your older son. Math was never my forte. Anyway, that video posted earlier did seem to have a wushu flair in it's execution. Did you jazz it up or is that how you've always played it? Who, or whom, did you learn it from? Just curious. I don't mean to denigrate it all. On the contrary, your kid looks pretty dang good at it. If I was still competing with that form, I'd lift all those moves. ;)

iron_silk: That's not the same sequence from Shaolin Temple (the film) (http://www.martialartsmart.net/dvd40021.html). If you'll remember, that sequence has a stomp, among other things. Shi Guolin teaches that sequence, but he adds this crazy contortive twist to it that makes it really difficult - his version seems much closer to true Shaolin. No, that sequence is straight out of Lam Kwoon. Three punches and a kick, we used to call it. It may have been on the intro Shaolin video - I cant' remember. I added a variation to it by squeezing in a twist stance, block and punch in between each repetition. It was a great sequence to work the legs. I'm not sure if many Lam Kwoon instructors used it after me because it could take a lot of toll on your knees if done incorrectly, and I know at least one of my sucessors had knee issues. It's more evidence that Shaolin Vagabond is a rogue descendant of Lam Kwoon.

[iron_silk]

Thanks for response.

Yeah I know about he stomp but I just figured...you know...he ain't 100%.

I know what you mean about the twist I do something similar if I wanted a quickie work out of the body and too lazy to do my usual.

[Lokhopkuen]

Gene;
No actually it is pretty close to the way I learned it filtered through a 17 year old who had not practiced anything in a while but had been pracfticing daily, reluctantly since 8 years old.(take that dad, teach me gung fu will ya.) showing up to Master Ken Edwards Eagle Claw tourney as a favor for poor ole dad......

He took the Jr GC and there was no room on the way home in the car for my wife, baby son, the winner and his massive ego and yea me dad. Ah kids.

Anyway

I imagine my gung fu is poor compared to the effortless expertise of my teacher but I have attempted to retain the various essences he has had the patience to pass on to my classmates and I.

Did I answer your question????


Peace

[GeneChing]

...I've seen some Mainland China BSL that had a wushu flavor. At the time, I just wrote it off to so many forms getting wushu-ized. But perhaps it's just the nature of some BSL lineages.

[Fen]

Three punches and a kick is on the (Introducion to shaolin kung fu) tape from Wing Lam Sifu also...<---just for info :D

One of the drills I teach to my class, was given to me by Lokhopkuen years ago... He said that Master Hui liked it for demos... ... I would put it here! But I feel it's not my place to do so... Plus after all this time I may have alterd it a little by now...


~Jason

[Lokhopkuen]

One of the drills I teach to my class, was given to me by Lokhopkuen years ago... He said that Master Hui liked it for demos... ... I would put it here! But I feel it's not my place to do so... Plus after all this time I may have alterd it a little by now...


~Jason

Which one Fen? Post it please 'cause I done forgot!

[The Xia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDdVI4A_hik

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[street_fighter]

yeah i know. I've seen his clips all over the place for years. Hes absolutely awful. What a freak too. I always try to make a comment for any of his 'students' telling them to get out asap. Somehow i don't think it works though. There all too content living in a fantasy land.

[tattooedmonk]

it is obviously a demonstration form and not a performance one...give a guy a break..the moves are there ..but the" hairdoo" and the outfit ....LMAO!!!

dude you obviously have issues with caucasians.... I am c*o*c*k*-asian!!:D

[Flying-Monkey]

This guy is garbage if he is a sifu. I don't do N. Shaolin and I can see it isn't right. It looks like he learned it from a book or something. I could be wrong.

[The Xia]

I've seen plenty of bad kung fu. That's nothing new. What struck me about this particular case is this guy's look. It would be funny to see people’s reactions as he walked through a Chinatown.

[The Xia]

This guy is garbage if he is a sifu.
Yeah, he is a sifu......
I wonder who would go to someone that looked like that. I can see laymen getting fooled by B.S. martial arts but this guys look should chase away anyone with an ounce of sanity.

[Flying-Monkey]

He is probably one of those guys who learns from a video on Friday and teaches on Saturday.

If I was him, I would tell my students to call me Sihing (not sifu)and charge less. This is because of the fact that I would be still learning. And if I get ranked by Wing Lam or other video learning system, I would change my title to sifu.

[Wood Dragon]

Boo Manchu.

[Ravenshaw]

I've commented on some of this guy's videos.

Not only is he a beginner, he clearly learned those sets from my teacher's bak siu lum video tapes. He mimics some of the idiosyncracies found in those tapes. I wonder if brother Gene would come to the same conclusion.

A person of this skill who learned from videos... teaching? I'm offended for my school, the bak siu lum system, and martial arts as a whole. We don't need more poseur "masters" giving everyone a bad name. :mad:

[Samurai Jack]

Which brings up a point I've been thinking about. Several of my past teachers have sold instructional videos. I have heard stories of people learning from the videos, then claiming to have learned from the teacher who put out the video. Of course this makes my teachers angry. Technically the video students who do this are lying, but maybe they feel okay about it since the teacher made the video that they learned from. Anyhow, if this is a real quality control concern to the teacher, why not stop producing the videos? My teachers say they invest too much money to do that, and who am I to argue? It's thier decision.

I guess it's a matter of priorities. Still, when you put out instructional videos, aren't you pretty much saying "You can learn from this video?" I mean, an ethical teacher wouldn't sell an instructional video that he felt people couldn't learn from, right? And if you are going there, then why is it unreasonable to assume that if the video student has "learned it" that he can't "teach it?"

Just playing devil's advocate, but I think these are REALLY important questions nonetheless.

[Ravenshaw]

I'm not sure. I've only ever used videos for information and review, never as a replacement for a teacher.

It may be possible for a person to learn kung fu from a video, but he's at a disadvantage no matter how you look at it. It would be hard to do, if it can be done, and would require a great amount of self-assessment and honesty to develop the skills to a high level. Maybe he got as far as he could with the video and thought he was good enough to teach. Judging by his performance, he's not really qualified to make that judgment.

When I worked at my sifu's store, people would call in to ask if learning from the videos enabled them to teach the material as part of the lineage. The answer I was told to give was a firm "no." The reasoning was that, since even actual students must recieve permission from our sifu to teach what they've learned, why should video students be given free license? There would be no quality control and, considering the particularly difficult medium, video students already have almost none.

Now, what bothers me personally here is that my sifu asked me to coach the kids' class at his school after I spent a few years learning. He knew me, he and my older brothers taught me, and he knew my level of understanding well enough to judge whether he could rely on me to teach the basics. So even though I learned from the teacher of the school, I needed his permission before teaching what I'd learned. A video student, who only has some footage of a teacher to follow - and whose skills my sifu was not familiar with and could not trust - gets to teach without any sort of approval, just because he felt he was good enough?

One needs permission if their intention is to teach as part of a lineage or school.

[David Jamieson]

hey ravenshaw, in wing lams version of the set does it have those side steps and use the pound mortar back fist instead of swing hammer fist?

I learned the set differently from what's shown there.

also, any of you guys ever seen yang jwing mings version of this set, it's completely different.

no comment on the vid other than ive seen worse and ive seen better.

[Royal Dragon]

From YouTube:

This is a very basic form performed by my Sifu Glen Bullock. ... (more) (less)

It looks like he is trying to choreagraph his moves to the drum.

[Samurai Jack]

Well, I can't speak for your Sifu's tapes at all, and it isn't my intention to do so. I used to own a set of James McNiel's Hsing-i tapes because he is from the same lineage as my teacher. On the tapes he would say things like, "Be proud! You are learning Hsing-i!" I owned two John Painter tapes at one time, and on those tapes he said, "Once you have learned this set, you can move on to the next tape." George Xu tapes said things like, "Follow along with these movements until you've mastered the form." I currently own a set of Aikido for Police tapes, and the instructor constantly states that cops should watch the tapes and practice with thier partners.

I have never seen an instructional video that said, "We're just demonstrating... you can't learn from these tapes." I mean what would be the point, right? Who's going to buy instructional tapes when they are told they can't learn from them?

I'll bet when you told the people at the store they couldn't learn from your tapes they didn't buy them right?

My point is that for those teachers who don't want to see thier arts being hijacked by fakers, they shouldn't be putting the tapes out in the first place. If they do, and they are implying or outright stating that someone CAN learn from the tapes, then maybe they are part of the problem.

[golden arhat]

no joke you cn see what i commented i'm kungfufreddy on there he is truly awful did nyone see the iron shirt demo with him nd a cut waxwood staff he gives white people an even worse reputation
DISGRACEFUL

[David Jamieson]

I've made more or less the same argument before samurai jack.

It's not so much that you can't learn from tapes because you can.
The problem comes when someone learns from tapes, then hones in on claims of representing the style without meeting the criteria to be a representative of the style.

In other words, it's ok to learn em and practice em and show em, but to say that you are representative of a style based off of what you actually have is where it get's people's goats.

Beginners in general for the most part and in my experience do not grasp the teachings in tape form. And tapes often have little to say about refined details such as where to issue force, the structure and breathing of each combination within a set, several of the variative applications etc etc etc.

For someone who has spent a few years studying a decent martial art, I think they would surmise a lot of that stuff and would have an easier go of it. they would get the simple concepts such as expelling breath when striking and consuming breath when readying, mechanical structure and how it optimizes force issuance and so on. These are things that get worked on with regular opractice and foundational schooling in a given martial art and can be mapped onto other martial arts.

forms can also show us a technique that may be performed incorrectly, but because you may know correct mechanics and kinesiology, you could self correct the same technique when you do it.

But I don't think that people who release tapes and instructional videos to "expect" to get what is tantamount to stolen from and usurped in what they offer. It is not the fault of someone to spread Kungfu, if there is any blame it is in those people with incorrect intention with what they are going to do with whatever forms they have learned or taugfht themselves using video and self instruction only.

when it's(self instruction from other media) combined with the oral transmission tradition, the result is different and the non-direct media is an excellent resource to learn new things from both in a down to earth sense and in an artistic expression sense not to mention cultivation and healthful practice.

after all, why is it valid to learn for real techniques from a sbg dvd set and not from traditional format instruction. Different approaches to the same thing. And addressing different types of learners and their needs.

[Wood Dragon]

Videos serve a purpose.

They are, however, a reference tool.

Much like, when you learn German, you own and use a German/English dictionary. The dictionary itself does not teach anything. It simply allows you to doublecheck your current skillset.

[SPJ]

Some people are just having fun.

We have a local Chinese church and culture center. They both have Tai Chi classes. The teachers are from Beijing Wushu team and one year national champ.

There are some lessons for young and old. There are no classics or fighting apps etc. Only the basic exercises, short forms, and basic push hands and breathing exercises.

My point is that a teach has to be clear on his or her background. not claiming a lineage if he or she does not have one.

Both Tai Chi teachers SAID that they are "schooled" from Wushu academy and they are only familiar or formerly trained with the school material etc.

On hair do;

some people are very serious about that. and yet some are just having fun.

In Qing era, if you lose your pony tail, it is a seditious offense and punished by losing your head.

--

:D

[tattooedmonk]

Videos serve a purpose.

They are, however, a reference tool.

Much like, when you learn German, you own and use a German/English dictionary. The dictionary itself does not teach anything. It simply allows you to doublecheck your current skillset.that this is actual what the purpose of this tape was for?demonstration and as a teaching aid to his students??and not a performance ..per se???

[MasterKiller]

Videos serve a purpose.

They are, however, a reference tool.

Much like, when you learn German, you own and use a German/English dictionary. The dictionary itself does not teach anything. It simply allows you to doublecheck your current skillset.

I've learned a sh1t load of stuff from videos. And books.

Just last night I was wacthing Bas Ruten's Big Book of Combat and he has a lot of techniques on there I had never thought of, and I'll probably try using a few of them after I watch it a couple of more times.

I use Ross' San Da training DVDs to pick up lots of details about, well, quite a lot of things, actually.

I watch, I use, I adjust, I watch, I use, I adjust, etc....

Inversely, I tried learning a little Chinese from an audio CD series, but I could never make it stick because I didn't have anyone to use it with. So, I can count and cuss, but that's about it.

[David Jamieson]

Videos serve a purpose.

They are, however, a reference tool.

Much like, when you learn German, you own and use a German/English dictionary. The dictionary itself does not teach anything. It simply allows you to doublecheck your current skillset.


I dunno about that. You can learn brand new stuff and apply it. language instruction and body mechanics/fighting instruction aren't really comparable in context. I would also add that clear instruction is relevanty as well.

[Becca]

I guess it's a matter of priorities. Still, when you put out instructional videos, aren't you pretty much saying "You can learn from this video?"
Yes, you are. And yes, you can learn from them. But what you learn from them will be heavily based on what you were building on. If you have cr@p to start with...:rolleyes:

I mean, an ethical teacher wouldn't sell an instructional video that he felt people couldn't learn from, right? And if you are going there, then why is it unreasonable to assume that if the video student has "learned it" that he can't "teach it?"

I learned some geography in high school. Maybe I should go teach it now. And if I get anything wrong... well I never gat anything wrong. The teachers who actually have degrees, talent, and experience in teaching are misrepresenting the concepts or they are jealous, right?:eek: :rolleyes:

[BruceSteveRoy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhN37BWCU6c

[BruceSteveRoy]

this is where people are saying he learned it i think.

Lien bu quan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dndU6SzYAE4

bot bo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuJ7U28Rmvw

dunno though.

[The Xia]

I've commented on some of this guy's videos.

Not only is he a beginner, he clearly learned those sets from my teacher's bak siu lum video tapes. He mimics some of the idiosyncracies found in those tapes. I wonder if brother Gene would come to the same conclusion.

A person of this skill who learned from videos... teaching? I'm offended for my school, the bak siu lum system, and martial arts as a whole. We don't need more poseur "masters" giving everyone a bad name. :mad:
Is your sifu Wing Lam? You may want to tell him about this guy.

[The Xia]

On hair do;

some people are very serious about that. and yet some are just having fun.

In Qing era, if you lose your pony tail, it is a seditious offense and punished by losing your head.

--

:D
This isn't the Ching Dynasty and he isn't Chinese...
Dressing like that because you do Kung Fu is akin to dressing like a Roman Senator because you take a Latin class.

[BruceSteveRoy]

no, sorry to disappoint. i am familiar with these forms though. although at my old school we did them a little bit differently than they do on the video this guy learned them from. he seems a little stiffer in his movements but i enjoy watching it bc the differences make it interesting.
as for the guy in the silly outfit i really thought he was just a beginner and thought it wasn't a bad try and thought it was cool that he would put himself out there but then i heard someone say he was a sifu. i then started banging my face on my keyboard. not a rational response but whatever. this guys form is crap. even if it is supposed to be slow and deliberate for educational purposes. just absolute garbage.

[Ravenshaw]

hey ravenshaw, in wing lams version of the set does it have those side steps and use the pound mortar back fist instead of swing hammer fist?

We have the side steps, but the strike in our set is a hammer fist. Also, we do the elbow strikes in bow stances and not a horse stance.


I'll bet when you told the people at the store they couldn't learn from your tapes they didn't buy them right?

Well, I told them learning from the tapes did not make them qualified to teach, which is different from telling them they can't learn. As a few people on this forum pointed out, people can learn things from videos. But learning doesn't automatically qualify the student to teach what he has learned.


Is your sifu Wing Lam? You may want to tell him about this guy.

Yes. I'll bring it up on my next visit. I'm at college and not near the school anymore.

[Becca]

... As a few people on this forum pointed out, people can learn things from videos. But learning doesn't automatically qualify the student to teach what he has learned...
It's a free country. You can teach what you learn if you can find some chump who actually wants to learn it... Also doesn't mean you've actually learned what the teacher was teaching.

It looked to me like he is a great mimic. But didn't really have any idea that all those pretty movements are not the Chinese version of River Dance. Lack of intent or understanding of the move is what is most obvious to me.

[Wood Dragon]

I've learned a sh1t load of stuff from videos. And books.

Just last night I was wacthing Bas Ruten's Big Book of Combat and he has a lot of techniques on there I had never thought of, and I'll probably try using a few of them after I watch it a couple of more times.

I use Ross' San Da training DVDs to pick up lots of details about, well, quite a lot of things, actually.

I watch, I use, I adjust, I watch, I use, I adjust, etc....

Inversely, I tried learning a little Chinese from an audio CD series, but I could never make it stick because I didn't have anyone to use it with. So, I can count and cuss, but that's about it.


My post was in reference to "Form/Kata" videos. Techniques and training tips are, obviously, another story.

[The Xia]

There are many sifus that don't take kindly to those that rip off of them.

[jigahus]

This reminds me of the movie bullet proof monk. Where chow yun fat asks sean william scott where did he learn his kung fu? And Scott doesn't tell but Fat later learns that Scott learned from watching the kung fu cinemas at the theater.

[GeneChing]

Check the thread on the Shaolin forum (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40056). I'll probably merge this one with that one after it dies down here on the main forum.

[David Jamieson]

*marches around room chanting*

merge merge merge merge
merge merge merge merge

[jethro]

I don't know a lot of the forms you guys bring up like bot bo, but it just looks like the guy is going at it half ass.

[Water Dragon]

flowery fist and brocade legs

[SPJ]

I used to grow long hairs and have a pony tail back in college days in the 80'.

however, I have to cut short in the beginning of a semester. Because of hair code and dress code in college. however, the military instructor or Jiao Guan always gave me huge leeway. meaning we met each other half way. so I cut my hairs to shoulder length so that I may grow longer faster later on. so when registration time came, Jiao Guan just looked the other way.

--

For dress;
a pair of dark pants with white t-shirt and maybe some tie up (Ban Tui) above ankles would be enough nowadays.

the long pony tail is over done as pointed out.

--

;)

[The Xia]

A long ponytail and a Manchu queue are two different things.

[golden arhat]

i didnt think qing dynasty hairstyles were cool with most han chinese

[David Jamieson]

hairstyles of 100+ years ago are pretty out there, but have little to do with kungfu.

anyway, his bsl ain't that great and you're right jethro, it is half assed.
If people want to learn half assed then that's up to them I guess.

[Ravenshaw]

It's a free country. You can teach what you learn if you can find some chump who actually wants to learn it... Also doesn't mean you've actually learned what the teacher was teaching.

All true. However, qualifications and freedoms are different. He may be free to do it, but is he qualified to do so? The only reason I ever taught was because my teacher asked me to. I am not qualified to open my own school and accept students of my own, though.

[Ravenshaw]

On the previous thread, Gene says he thinks the guy learned at Lam Kwoon. :eek: Generally I cede to what Gene says, but I'm still not so sure.


He could be a video student, but I'm guessing he isn't. Remember I wrote those videos. For the earlier sets, I can usually pinpoint some one who's learned from videos pretty easily. He missed a detail early on that was quite explicit in the videos. Now, he could have just overlooked that when he watched the videos, but since it was early on and since it was explicit, I'm inclined to beleive it was a person-to-person transmission.

By the way, this is referencing this guy's Bot Bo (http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...9344&q=shaolin)

The funny thing is that the missed detail is one reason I do think he's a video student. Right before the first back sweep, he misses some stance shifts. They may have been emphasized in the video lessons, but take a look at Sifu Wing Lam's demonstration (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuJ7U28Rmvw) of the set from the same instructional video. There's the very same omission. To me, it looks like a mistake on the video that showed up in the video student's set.

Secondly, Gene doesn't know the guy, and he was at the Wing Lam school for decades. Gene left in early 2002 if I remember correctly, but I left in 2005. During that time, I was training and teaching at Lam Kwoon six days a week and I knew all the instructors and most students. I don't know this guy. If someone stuck with BSL at Lam Kwoon long enough to learn #8, I would have most likely remembered him. So I'm pretty sure he was never at the main school, unless he started sometime after I left in August 2005 and before all the classes dissolved in January 2006.

The only other explanation of which I can think is that (1) he learned from one of the daughter schools, (2) he was a morning BSL student back when we had the morning class, which seems unlikely because I think Justin taught that class and he was a hardass for details, or (3) he was a private student.

Given all that, the video comparison definately leads me to believe he's a video student. But my sihing has shot me down before, so I could be wrong. :o

[The Xia]

Video student or not I doubt Wing Lam told this guy that he is ready to teach. His look makes it far worse. People like that give a bad name to Kung Fu. Sifu Wing Lam may want to take a look at these videos.

[David Jamieson]

I'm not sure what purpose it serves to bother with anything more than simply noting that it isn't up to snuff really. People can call themselves whatever they like. This dude is just one more in a long line of many who call themselves this or that.

Indifference is the correct tool in this matter. making a bunch of noise about it just creates controversy which in turn actually lends more creedance to what he is doing than not.

[The Xia]

Picture it this way David. Let's say you are a Sifu and some guy takes a few classes and then goes out and teaches your material poorly. On top of that, he claims he is in your lineage. Can you see how this may upset you?

[David Jamieson]

well, im not a sifu but i understand your point. however, it would be found out, such as it has been here and other places or through word of mouth in which case it would all be regarded as mere vaniloquence and there would be nothing to be upset about. :p

[The Xia]

You know how gullible the average person is when it comes to martial arts. Most don't even bother to do research.

[Becca]

Unfotunately true... I am reading a book by one of my favorite stupid-book authors. She has made several blunders along those lines. Most of them have been along the lines of how a very good fighter has no need to practice skills they've already mastered and how a smaller person can never through a bigger person.

Though, as most of here readers are likely clueless about martial arts of any kind, I doubt she really cares. The sad part is, some of her readers will see that, assume she did do here research, and take that drivle as fact. And having it in thier head as fact, they might assume a truelly good teacher is full of B.S. because what that person is teaching contradicts what So-and-so wrote in a romance novle once...:(

[The Xia]

I guess they needed an "exotic hobby". :rolleyes:

[The Xia]

And given my hair dramatics, I'd be the last one to bust anyone about hair styles...:o
You've had doos that match, or are kookier, then the queue?

[Shaolinlueb]

You've had doos that match, or are kookier, then the queue?


yes,

somewhere there are pictures. and im sure gene will look for them if you ask enough!

[The Xia]

I never thought that would be a headline for one of my posts. :D
So you are saying Gene would have to be pestered enough to post those pictures? :p
That would mean he has some reluctance. Gene doesn't strike me as that kind of person. He seems far too laid back to be embarrassed about some hairdos from the past.

[Lokhopkuen]

Video student or not I doubt Wing Lam told this guy that he is ready to teach. His look makes it far worse. People like that give a bad name to Kung Fu. Sifu Wing Lam may want to take a look at these videos.

I seriously doubt Sifu Wing Lam is concerned about one guy banging out lackluster performances. As a teacher he knows the ones most eager to teach are usually the ones least qualified to do so. As a teacher who makes a living selling instructional videos I am sure he is ever prepped for the back lash of several thousand Master Lacklusters....
The Vagabond ain't that good but really he ain't that bad either. I have seen worse and that was not pretty. The sequences are well connected even though they lack dynamic. He is a suitable candidate to introduce someone who might normally be intimidated by the raw power of gung fu to the gentle practice of Chinese Martial art. As far as giving gung fu a bad name, too late. Because of the secretive nature of it's practice the best Masters were never seen so only low level people were seen until recently. Ask any karate dude and they will tell you "oh it's real pretty but lacks any real power, etc, etc.... So this cat is not a one man plague on the good name of gung fu. It is our job as traditional practitioners to show people through our actions, practice and promotion what real gung fu looks like and what it is all about.

All of you move away from your keyboard and go perfect your basic!!!!!


Peace

[The Xia]

Ask yourself this in all honesty. Put yourself in the place of an educated prospective student, would you want him as your sifu?

As for my "bad name" comment, it's not just only about his skill, it's also about his outfit and doo. He isn’t Chinese and it’s not the Ching Dynasty. Are you saying this look should be welcomed amongst TCMA practitioners?

[Lokhopkuen]

I imagine since he was shooting a video perhaps his costume was an attempt to create a feeling of time and place. Kindda reminds me of this guy:

http://users.aol.com/beishaolin/index.html

As far as would I want him as a teacher? I feel finding a teacher is an act of fate, that the spirits of martial energy will guide a sincere student and a dedicated teacher to one another so they might learn things from one another. All teachers start out as something and grow from there. I don't think even the greatest master you ever heard of was a gifted teacher from the start. He slowly developed into one. Same with students, you don't get dedicated ones, You develop them over time. Teaching is about sharing your experiences and more importantly as a developing senior martial artist it is an opportunity to experience the various human archetypes. From the teaching experience you learn to KNOW OTHERS. The developmental years of a martial artist it is about understanding through the experience of SELF. Learning self, controlling self, getting comfortable chilling in your dope a s s e d luxury vehicle.

The book of war states knowing self and knowing others in a thousand battles you will never be defeated or something of that nature. I feel I was lucky that Vagabond was not destined to be my teacher. I do however commend him on his courage to perform the demanding practice sets of Bak Siu Lum and humbly submit his efforts as a reference in a public media forum opening himself to the sometimes viscous critiques of peoples from the internet. Just from the few vids I have posted on my website I have been accused of altering the form to make it "flashy" that perhaps we are "wushuy" and have surly "watered down the pristine nature of the system" and most certainly had stumbled down the slippery slope to punk a s s, wack a s s gung fu of the flowery fist+ legs of brocade category. On and on and on it goes! I perform as I was taught and do the best I can each time I get the chance to be seen.

IMHO I feel there are far too few representative examples of the Northern Shaolim style on video for the public access. Secretive teaching practices almost rendered the style extinct if it were not for the open teachings of people like Lung Kai Ming, Wong Jack Man, Wing Lam, Chen Kwock Wei and Kenneth Hui. So maybe just maybe when some nice guys decides to share his video record of his practice efforts we could encourage him gently in a positive manner rather than yelling as loud as we can type YOU SUCK!!!!!!

Just a thought....

Peace


Ask yourself this in all honesty. Put yourself in the place of an educated prospective student, would you want him as your sifu?

As for my "bad name" comment, it's not just only about his skill, it's also about his outfit and doo. He isn’t Chinese and it’s not the Ching Dynasty. Are you saying this look should be welcomed amongst TCMA practitioners?

[David Jamieson]

oh man, you should see whatt hey think is "pek sil lum" in the UK.

sorry no linky, but someone put up some vids of what's considered to be genuine over there and frankly, it looked even worse than que boy there.

Mind you, I think the chinese purposefully give britains the wrong teachings as revenge for the opium wars thing and the whole occupation etc etc. :p

[Lokhopkuen]

Now I have a question related to martial performance theater;
Do you think it ethical for a teacher of traditional Chinese martial art who is not Chinese to represent himself as Chinese? By this I mean affecting a heavy accent mainly in a phone answering message, making "cosmetic" adjustments to the eyes, growing long hair and braiding it into a cue... Interesting enough I have known asian teachers who speak unaccented english to affect a heavy 'asian' accent around students to create the ASIAN MYSTIQUE. I don't know if this helps their business but it is fun to watch.


Peace:D

[golden arhat]

"oh man, you should see whatt hey think is "pek sil lum" in the UK.

sorry no linky, but someone put up some vids of what's considered to be genuine over there and frankly, it looked even worse than que boy there.

Mind you, I think the chinese purposefully give britains the wrong teachings as revenge for the opium wars thing and the whole occupation etc etc. "
thats very true
there are only like 20 proper kung fu schools in the whole country the rest is crap
but u have to remember the uk is smaller than alot of us states

[David Jamieson]

imitation of cultural stuff is in the category of delusion as far as Im concerned.

It's one thing to appreciate and seek understanding of another culture and it's treasures, but it's another thing entirely to make believe, play pretend and so on.

typically, people who do this kind of stuff have a bit of a screw loose in my opinion. Even moreso if after many years of doing this they still haven't undertaken to actually even learn the language or actual histories etc and sit in their bubble of wannabe chinese. ridiculous and all too common sadly.

I'll just have the kungfu please, hold the white rice. :p

[hasayfu]

It's like a mini-reunion for me. Good to see LokHopKuen, Gene, Ravenshaw, David and others here. Guess I'll be visiting the Shaolin forum a little more often.

As a long time Hung Gar guy from Wing Lam Kung Fu, I can't speak to the "signature" movements in the videos but I can speak towards Sifu's attitude towards people who have learned from video and start to teach.

Overall, he is ambivalent. As been mentioned, he is not the first and he won't be the last. Hopefully, he has not decieved his students but even so, it's caveat emptor. Sifu doesn't feel he has a right let alone a need to control what these people can and can not do simply because they bought a tape or attended a seminar.

As Ravenshaw mentioned, anyone who has spent significant time learning from Sifu will quickly realize that teaching to his standard is a tall order and one would like his blessing before starting down a path. I too, fall into this category. When I instructed at WLKF, I was a SiHing and not the Sifu.

On the otherhand, I've met 100s of people who have opened their school before ever meeting Sifu. At least the people I've met took the effort to visit in person and get corrections. I go back to my long time lineage rant. Lineage is not a measure of how good someone is. It's a measure of how good the should be. It means you have something to measure them against.

Finally, does this guy hurt kung fu? Maybe, Maybe not. It certainly could hurt his students if they don't look beyond their kwoon. One thing I always appreciated about Sifu was his encouragement for us to examine what we do against others. But on the flip side, his efforts could spark an interest in someone who will go and seek out the real deal.

I'm reminded of a distant student who would fully admit he is not "master" level but has opened up a school. He produces good hardworking students several of the students have visited sifu for direct lessons. He is clear that he is passing on what he has learned and encourages students that want more to seek it out. This is good for kung fu.

There has only been one person that Sifu has actively made an effort to set the record straight. Mainly, because he deceived Sifu's teacher and misrepresented himself to Sigung. Anyone who knows me knows who this is and I won't go into it since it's old news.

[Ravenshaw]

So maybe just maybe when some nice guys decides to share his video record of his practice efforts we could encourage him gently in a positive manner rather than yelling as loud as we can type YOU SUCK!!!!!!

Just a thought....

Peace

I'm one of the nicest guys in the world when it comes to students practicing in earnest. I'm willing to give them a lot of time no matter what their level is, which showed, I think, in the kids' classes I coached at the WL school and my current efforts on the WL forums.

My criticisms for this guy go far beyond his beginner level.


It's like a mini-reunion for me. Good to see LokHopKuen, Gene, Ravenshaw, David and others here. Guess I'll be visiting the Shaolin forum a little more often.

I've missed you on my last couple visits to the kwoon. I'll catch you one of these times...

Anyway, I find I'm more troubled by this guy than the others you've mentioned with the exception of the aforementioned "old news." Ugh.

He's just not in a position to accept students, no matter how you cut it. He'd do better to share the instructional vids with them and practice together than dress up and make them call him "sifu."

As for Sifu's ambivalence... well, you know Sifu. :D

[The Xia]

How does your sifu run his kwoon? Hung Gar and Bak Siu Lam are an interesting combination. I'm interested to hear how Wing Lam teaches them together. Also, what aspects of both arts work well together for you?

[Ravenshaw]

We had separate HG and BSL (and internal) programs. For example, Gene and I taught in the BSL class at one time or another and hasayfu taught in the HG class. Since they were on different nights, few people cross-trained except for senior students, who might learn a set from a different style on occasion. Hasayfu learned the BSL broadsword set and both he and I know some Xing Yi, etc. Hasayfu has been a student for much longer, so he has a broader pallette than I.

For the most part, though, students stuck to one style. Sifu Wing Lam is an advocate of cross-training, but not until you're solid in one style first.

As of January, he got rid of all the individual programs and now only has one class, which he teaches personally, so there are no more intructors under him. I moved away for college shortly before that happened, but hasayfu is still there and he can provide more information. I think he's teaching HG Tiger and Crane now.

[GeneChing]

Lam Sifu used to keep HG and BSL quite separate. Most of the senior students, like me, RS & HSF, did some cross training, but we still had our root style. Personally, I can't remember any of the HG Lam Sifu taught me. A long time ago, he kept the tai chi completely separate too. In fact, he used to charge extra to teach it. But he was younger then and wasn't into it so much.

Now Sifu Lam is in a position to retire, something he's been fantasizing about for years. So he's cut back his classes down to one intimate group class, and they all focus on one form for several months. He's changed his import business to include garden stone, like stone buddhas and pagodas, and recently I heard that he's moved into selling crystals and such. I can't say I blame him. Anyone who's been in the martial arts biz for long enough eventaully sees that it's more profitable to move into other markets. I don't think Sifu Lam is ready to 'wash his hands in the gold basin' yet. I think he has a loyal core of students that keep him teaching. But he was never that attached to teaching. Left to his own, I think he would much prefer just to practice alone, and maybe fish.

I should note that to the best of my knowledge none of us (me, RS & HSF) are disciples of Sifu Lam. He hasn't taken many disciples. We were all just instructors under him.

[David Jamieson]

~G
Your last sentence brings to mind a question that I've been meaning to ask.


Can a layman take disciples? Or would they be more of an apprentice. or am I just being a language twit?

[Ravenshaw]

DJ, what do you mean by "layman?" Non-disciple?

Wow, Gene. Didn't know you kept up so well with the old school.


I should note that to the best of my knowledge none of us (me, RS & HSF) are disciples of Sifu Lam. He hasn't taken many disciples. We were all just instructors under him.

This is correct. I only know of one "disciple." I was just another of his students.

[GeneChing]

The dictionary definition of layman means that they are either not professional or not of the clergy. In the martial arts and in zen, we talk about layman disciples, who are disciples of a monk, but do not become monks. In the martial arts, you can be a disciple of any master, whether they are a monk or not. Sifu Wing Lam is not a monk at all, but he's taken at least one disciple. Most masters take disciples and few masters are monks. The layman factor doesn't really enter into it if they're not monks. So, for example, any of us could take disciples. Only a monk can take a monk disciple or a layman disciple. As a layman disciple myself, I could take disciples, but the layman factor doesn't enter into it.

I think Chet Braun is Wing Lam's only disciple, but I know there were some others that were interested in baisee-ing to our Sifu, notably some of his students in Italy or Bermuda or something. I never followed up to see if that happened.

[The Xia]

That answers my question on the styles of the Wing Lam Kwoon. Just one thing, what aspects of the art you crosstrained in do you feel worked best for you?

[Ravenshaw]

Xing yi's power generation, definitely. It's a very explosive internal style and really made me pay attention to the subtle body movements' role in linking the whole motion together. BSL's movements are still smooth on the whole, but I find that now I have more contrast between the light/smooth and the coiling/explosive. For example, the low wrist block followed by high crane at the beginning of BSL #7. Then once I start moving to the left it that form, it becomes more fluid.

Gene may well chime in and tell us that's wrong, though, so take my posts with a grain of salt. ;) Such is the case being the little brother. The road is still very long indeed...

[Lokhopkuen]

How does your sifu run his kwoon? Hung Gar and Bak Siu Lam are an interesting combination. I'm interested to hear how Wing Lam teaches them together. Also, what aspects of both arts work well together for you?

Strange enough many of the Masters of Northern Style I meet were experts in Hung Ga or Choi Li Fut. My Master for instance was a high level exponent of Preying Mantis and Hung Ga before he was exposed to Bak Siu Lum. According to my teacher Hong Kong was a rough place so you learned what you could to defend yourself. In my group we practice Iron Wire, Taming the Tiger and Tiger Crane right along with our Northern sets. I do not see any contrasting elements of the styles and as a matter of fact I find they complement one another. Like Swiss Army knife they constitute a series of useful tools for the practitioner to wield at a critical juncture.
Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Hung one of the root essences of Northern Shaolim or was that the Shaolim Hong (red) Fist???

Peace

[Lokhopkuen]

Xing yi's power generation, definitely. It's a very explosive internal style and really made me pay attention to the subtle body movements' role in linking the whole motion together. BSL's movements are still smooth on the whole, but I find that now I have more contrast between the light/smooth and the coiling/explosive. For example, the low wrist block followed by high crane at the beginning of BSL #7. Then once I start moving to the left it that form, it becomes more fluid..

Xing yi appears to be one of the latter essences of BSL as I see a lot of it in #9 and a bit in #10. Sik Fat seems to be a collection of the 'most respected' techniques of other styles. From my personal experience with the BSL system I see many "solutions" to "martial problems" such as what if he uses Bagua or CLF etc. I see many shuffling movements that would cut off a skilled circle walker, stright line attacks that would intercept circular hands and legs and Circular defensives that would neutralize strong direct angles. Is this from the Master's experience at the Institute in Nanjing or do these forms and associated techniques predate the Master Ku?


Peace

[Ravenshaw]

Xing yi appears to be one of the latter essences of BSL as I see a lot of it in #9 and a bit in #10.

I learned the basic 5 Elements before I learned 9 or 10. So when I learned 9, I was immediately struck by the xing yi stuck in there. I usually try to express that punch as true to xing yi as I'm able, since it appears to be a literal xing yi technique inserted into the style. In other instances, I find subtle manifestations of the elements - particularly fire - all over the place.

[GeneChing]

:p Actually, it's wrong to listen to someone over the web say 'it's wrong'. Everyone pursues their own practice. Who cares what others think? If it works for you, it works for you. It's akin to our bothersome SD thread - who freakin cares what others say? That's just egotism and has nothing to do with your own private practice.

OK, I'll get off my soap box now.

The Choy Lay Fut/BSL connection is common due to KYC's friendship with Tan Sam. There was an uncommon amount of exchange between the two masters so many of the descendants practice both systems. My guess about Hung Ga is more due to the popularity of that style in Guangdong. Lam Tsai Wing's books, along with several Shwa Brothers movies, showcased Hung Ga and created a considerable following. The connection between Hung (or Hong in mandarin, ala xiaohongquan) is dubious. It's the same character in Chinese, but the forms are so different that it's hard to imagine a common origin. I did an old article for IKF back when I was freelance about Hung Ga. Here's an old thread about it. (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12068) The article used to be online, but I can't find it now. Anyway, the gist of it was that Hung/hong is a very confusing character in CMA with a lot of implications and usages. It's too inconclusive to try to make a tie between xiaohongquan and hung ga. It's a messy bit of research, and maybe someday I'll go back and tackle if further.

[Lokhopkuen]

I learned the basic 5 Elements before I learned 9 or 10. So when I learned 9, I was immediately struck by the xing yi stuck in there. I usually try to express that punch as true to xing yi as I'm able, since it appears to be a literal xing yi technique inserted into the style. In other instances, I find subtle manifestations of the elements - particularly fire - all over the place.

Same here. I learned five elements connect and around the same time the 8 Palms in Bagua then a few years latter #9. Xing yi hipped me to generating raw power from flinging your body weight forward and then arresting it suddenly and then connecting that inertia through your waist and arms. Taught me to be careful when engaging the uninitiated......
Bagua has some interesting similarities in weight/ inertia transfer and the twisting/ spinning energy creates mad results! No more getting angry and hitting things or peoples. They break, then comes trouble:( :(


Peace

Gene thanks for the chime in!

[The Xia]

That answers my questions. That's one of the things I like about this forum. More often then not, if you ask, you receive.
Now there is only the matter of Gene's hair! :p

[Ravenshaw]

:Actually, it's wrong to listen to someone over the web say 'it's wrong'.

I knew you'd say that.

[hasayfu]

Gene SiHing, you always impress me with your knowledge sources. I also think you laid the disciple question to rest.

Ravenshaw, this guy is just another of many. Did you ever see the guy in Oregon (David Lee [Not Chinese] or something) that claimed to learn from Chiu Kao, Leung Wah-Chew and Yim Shang-Mo directly. He was clearly a video student but made no mention of Wing Lam at all. He did, however, say he belonged to the Kao Family Kung Fu Federation, Chew Family Kung Fu Federation and the Mo Family Kung Fu Federation. (Notice how he got the chinese order of names backwards and used the personal names as family names. LOL) What was funny was that Sifu almost moved to within an hour of his school. Subitai, Chet and I kept saying we could go visit Sifu and make a visit to our "si-sook" Too bad he brought his site down before that trip and has basically disappeared.

I find where this thread has turned to be interesting. I have dabbled in all the internal styles Sifu learned from Sun Jian Yun (Tai Chi, BaGua and Xing-I) with fairly extensive study in Xing-I. I find that Xing-I and Hung Gar complement each other very well. The internal structure is very similar as well as the fighting strategy.

I don't say this because Xing-I is the most external looking of the three. The emphasis on whole body power (not just movement) is one area. The follow step is very similar to Hung Gar's mouse stepping/steal a step concept.

Finally, I've been through 3 sessions of Sifu's intensive study courses. The goal Sifu had with them is to teach a base system's essense and pull out those elements that were core to it as well as those that transencds style. His many years of practicing various styles has given him a unique perspective on the essence of TCMA. IT's been a great expereince for all that particpated.

Recently he was asked if one should ignore parts of certain forms because they would never use it in a real fight. His answer was demonstrative of where he is in his martial thinking. In summary, he said that to be a fighter, you only really need ~10 techniques. Does that mean you should find your 10 and forget the rest of the forms? No! You train those other techniques (especially the real esoteric ones) to gain a better understanding and control of your body. If you can do that, doing your bread and butter techniques become easier and more powerful. I also added that forms do not teach you to fight but they give you an excellent framwork for improving your fighting skills.

I hope this hasn't gone too far from Shaolin topics. I came to this forum to learn from all of you but get me started and I'm hard to stop...

[Ravenshaw]

He did, however, say he belonged to the Kao Family Kung Fu Federation, Chew Family Kung Fu Federation and the Mo Family Kung Fu Federation.

What the ****? Other than the obvious name confusion, this guy clearly didn't know anything about Leung Wah Chew if he claimed that he had a federation...


In summary, he said that to be a fighter, you only really need ~10 techniques. Does that mean you should find your 10 and forget the rest of the forms? No! You train those other techniques (especially the real esoteric ones) to gain a better understanding and control of your body. If you can do that, doing your bread and butter techniques become easier and more powerful. I also added that forms do not teach you to fight but they give you an excellent framwork for improving your fighting skills.

Also, the same techniques that you would choose are going to be different from the techniques I'd choose. Getting rid of forms does away with that variety. I think I remember NS writing on these boards that past BSL masters were allowed to add to the sets, but never subtract... unless he forgot, I guess. :p Keeping the forms gives you a source of fresh ideas to work with throughout your studies. Still, I don't think forms will ever be my main training tool again. Not, at least, until I lose interest in sparring and application...

[Lokhopkuen]

Hey Steve;
remember the days on the Kung Fu list when nobody wanted to share real information and the flame war was a way of life? The elitist "Of course I know the answer to your query but I could not possibly publish that on a public forum" dudes. Ha ha! I personally cursed out and challenged so many people it makes my head swim to remember. {CHRINGE!!} The only guy I ever managed to track down and attempt to cross hands with metamorphosed into the most polite human being with a bit O poop in his pants and I ended up feeling like one of those bullies I had trained so hard to defend my self against. Embarrassing! Ah well, experience leads to maturity sometimes. I am blathering all of this to express my deep appreciation for the oh so civil information rich exchanges of ideas and martial theory I have experienced here in these lovely forums.

Thanks Guys


Peace:D ;) :p :cool: :eek:

[NorthernShaolin]

Sorry to throw my hat in this discussion so late but maybe I can answer a few questions if not maybe some insight.

On the subject of Sifu Lam's retirement, i'm not surprised. Actually anyone who learned in his current school are very lucky because I've known your sifu before he had any students. When he left his original school on Green Street, he was going to "give up teaching way back then". So you guys can count your luckly stars because you are very lucky he decided open another school to continue to teach.

As for what style Hung style influence BSL it was Hung as translated as Red Style not the Southern Hung style. There is no southern influence in BSL unless the practitioner was taught a southern style first before learning BSL.

As for the Hsing-i moves in BSL #9 and #10, there is really no way to validate when these particular moves were added. The current lyrics that we have for BSL are dated back to the late 1930's or early 1940's. I suspected that when KYC was in the Kuo Shu Provencial schools during the mid - 1920's, he was exposed to Hsing - i.

Now Wan Li Sheng was also at the Kuo Shu provencal schools at the same time. In WLS's Lui Ho Sets, the same Hsing-i techniques are found in his Lui Ho sets. However, in WLS's first TCMA book, the Lui Ho hand set that he writes about does not have the Hsing - i techniques.

With these two examples, one could draw conclusions but cannot be definitative, that these two masters incorporated the Hsing -i moves into their sets.

Now when I asked my sifu about my simple conclusions, he answered that these styles are very old and have a long history. Masters of different styles cross paths throughtout our long history. In order for todays TCMA styles to exist this long, the past masters have already mixed and tried every possible techniques that would work. Of course you will find similar techniques in different styles, but one as to remember some styles will branch off and use certain preferred techniques over others and hence, you have a specialized style, call it what you want, etc.

So I guess what he was trying to tell me is that most styles are complete in itself for its purpose, so it is not unusual to find what appears to be techniques from other unrelated styles within the style one is studying. Solid principles of fighting are found in all TCMA. They are the same. It is a matter of identifying it and knowing when to use it. In reality, we tend to read into what we think we see as a form of identifying a reference point. This is why when we observe different styles we tend to reconize certain techniques and say, it looks alike or is similar to.... and draw our own conclusion that maybe these two styles are related somewhere in the past when they are really are not related but just express the same principles of fighting throught similar moves.

[GeneChing]

...and we all know that punch is xingyi bengquan. Didn't y'all see the ONE (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=142)? ;)

OK, that was an obscure pun, but hopefully at least one of you got the chengyu reference.

On a more serious note, the notion that forms are only of value if they can be used in 'real fighting' is simply absurd. Sure, you want to have the fighting techniques, but that kind of narrow viewpoint will kill TCMA faster than anything. The greatest strength of TCMA is that it offers so much more than just those 10 techniques. There's qigong elements that have no application to combat, unless you have a broad enough perspective to include illness as a potential street enemy. Is it? Yes, I think so. There's also tons of more implicit stuff, cultural stuff, like my obscure chengyu reference above. That reference, if you understand it, really gets at the core of fighting practice. TCMA is much more than just fighting. It includes that philosophy, plus so much more. That's what all these reality/street/MMA guys tend to miss. They look only at what works in the ring. But real life doesn't happen in the ring. I'm over 40. I'm not getting in no ring (although I had a challenge offer from a kickboxer recently here, and she almost enticed me, but there was nacho cheese involved, and I know I would not have survived). OK, I better stop now....I'll come back to this after I clear my head. Nacho cheese kickboxing indeed...

[hasayfu]

Wow, Northern Shaolin here too? It is a old friends (or old folks) home. LOL.

Thanks for the insights. Good stuff.

Kisu, what ever happended to the guy? From the "location" you show on the forum I guess you drove him out of town. haha

I have to say, the best thing that I ever did with my kung fu was use it to open the doors to meet people. I've met some really wonderful folk in the Wu Lin.

Gene, what can I say...

Just wanted to share

[Lokhopkuen]

I heard he went and found a real teacher and is now causing loving situations for their organization. He seems to love me loads as he creates the most amazing character assassinating fictions with me as the star and sends them to anyone who will read his romantic drivel. Probably some unrequited attraction fixation and hey cowboy I no swing my gun that way. :eek: Ha ha! Write me PM and I'll fill U in.

Miss my cousins in the North.

TEll Uncle Lam I hope to see him soon.

Peace

[GeneChing]

I must confess, this thread has become very amusing and enjoyable and we have the vagabond dude to thank. I hope he dials into this thread some day and posts.

So back to my earlier point when I got distracted by nacho kickboxers :rolleyes: the whole 'only applicable to combat' is such a limited perspective. Sure, you can be reductionalist, and limit yourself only to fighting techniques that work in the ring. Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling, these sports are not that complicated. There's an elegance to simplicity. But there's also a power to complexity. Discarding forms throws the baby out with the bathwater for TCMA.

Chinese culture is one of the oldest in the world, so it's very dense, layered with hidden meanings. Take Warrior's pose, which we've discussed elsewhere (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43599). There are combat applications for it. With a good imagination (and some creative interpretation) you can draw an application out of anything. But there's also this cultural meaning - the invocation of Jinnaluo - that imbues the move with something much deeper than just fighting. It's like the chengyu I mentioned above. There's a lot of implications - a lot of back story - and therein lies our morality, our ethics, and our way of life. The legend of Jinnaluo, although clearly myth, unlocks a great deal about Shaolin. You can delve into the whole Jinnaluo/Vajrapani/Bodhidharma historical evolution issue. You can also use it as inspiration - a role model for how to carry yourself as a martial artist. There are so many levels. In this way, Warrior's pose becomes so much more than just a cross punch or a knee attack. It's like a rebus or a koan. You can take it as far as you like.

Most people just stop at the movement itself. Those are the practitioner who are only in it for health, and that's totally fine. We need more of them to strenghten our economy. Some actually learn an application, and that's better, of course. Some learn many applications and the name of the move. But the people that truly master it, they learn all the history, all the cultural context, everything. That's the spiritual level, and it's neverending.

[Lokhopkuen]

I'd like to quote my Sifu as an addendum to Gene's bit:

The Third stage is what is called self awareness training. The Book of War emphasizes that in order to be invincible, one has to first know thyself and also know your enemy. Knowing your enemy depends on your experience and also your enemy. But, knowing yourself is something that is under ones absolute control and it would be foolish to not capitalize on it. The training of self awareness can be developed via meditation, self reflection, knowledge and theory studies, and internalizing ones practices. The outcome of this stage of training will determine whether the practitioner becomes an enlightened martial artist, or just another fighter.

[Blacktiger]

Reading all your posts is so refreshing after all the chest beating of late.

Peace

:)