Single Leg Horse Stance ?

[Liddel]

My Sifu has stressed the importance of the Single Leg Horse Stance for developing power for VT kicks.

I have many different ways of trainnig my kicking power ( Kicking pads and the heavy bag are obvious ones ) but over the years ive realised that the SLHS and more recently my arrow punch horse ( Luk Dim Boon ) have been huge contributors to building power for kickiing.

My Question is
- Do you train your kicking power with the SLHS ?
- Do / did you use it at all ? and from what stage in the learning process ?

I just see this aspect of VT training becomming less used and being replaced by more conventional ( if you will ) training techniques for kicking.

Is it slowly being lost ? I see VT kicks used very infrequent in sparring clips shared by our community yet i use them in my sparring so others MUST :)

Set me straight -

[stonecrusher69]

We train in our school from day one single leg stance and the low horse which is where the power for the kick comes from and the root.

[Jeff Bussey]

We train single leg horse stance as well.

J

[viper]

please excuse my ignorance but what is sigle leg horse stance the otha u spoke of pics or detailed would be highly app

[Mr Punch]

Yep, guess we don't do it, because I'm with Viper!:o

[Sekabin]

Wild guess - standing on one leg. :D

[AmanuJRY]

IMO, 'single leg horse' stance is an excellent way to develop balance and strength, both important qualities for kicking.

The problem I see is that using it as a fighting stance is a fallacy. It greatly reduces mobility and produces a very akward (both to use and to learn) footwork.

I would opt for a more useful fighting stance, but it is an invaluable training tool.

[Mr Punch]

Thanks Sek! :rolleyes:

So, wtf is it?!

[AmanuJRY]

Thanks Sek! :rolleyes:

So, wtf is it?!

Basically, it's a fancy way of saying 'standing on one leg'.

[El Tejon]

Years ago, we used to do it while performing SLT very slooooowly.:D Before that we had to do that chair stance from yoga and then duck walk (sifu said it was to build our ankles, knees and hips).

We did it right after we had learned SLT. We had to do it in the dark too, that was really tough at first.

We don't do it so much as a club anymore. I still do it every now and then.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey guys,
We do a lot of punching drills on one leg. Sometimes, someone holds a focus mitt and this can help with your balance. Like if you lean with your punch and also to make sure that you're not absorbing the punch back into you.

I think that they're worth while drills.

J

[GungFuHillbilly]

The problem I see is that using it as a fighting stance is a fallacy.

No way!:eek: Mr. Miyagi said that when done correctly their was no defense against the crane kick!:D :D :D

But seriously, we have to distinguish between development and application. For example, you won't see a boxer hit someone like they hit a speed bag. But does that mean that this kind of training should be discarded? No, it develops attributes that are applicable, but the technique itself is not.

I myself use the single leg stance extensively in my teaching and training.

-GFH

[Hendrik]

IMHHO,

There is standing in single leg,

There is using single leg standing to cultivate the rising of the Leg 3 yin medirians and the sinking of leg 3 yang medirians....... and train different side of the leg.....

There is a set called Cin Jiong or arrow palm in the Yik Kam WCK lineage does train the single leg's asending and descending.....

and the source of this single leg training seems to be adapted from emei 12 zhuang.

[anerlich]

When I did Xingyi/Bagua, we did a "Plum blossum kicking set" which did quite a few chained kicks on one leg.

If you think duck walking is hard on your knees, try Xinqyi dragon stepping. Do it for too long and you feel like your patellae are going to shoot through the front of your knees like bullets. There are bodyflow drills similar to duck walking which will develop rather than trash tendons and ligaments.

These days I do the four corner balance drills, basically extending one leg to the front, side, back, and other side. Good for balance. Several yoga single leg balances develop such attributes quite well also.

[Phil Redmond]

Well if you subscribe to the Crane, Snake, (and sometimes Fox) antics in WC. Standing on one leg would be a Crane antic. It's also good training for balance when kicking and punching.
Phil

[Mr Punch]

Basically, it's a fancy way of saying 'standing on one leg'.Thanks. Stone me Sek, you were right! :D

And er, yep, I've stood on one leg many times, usually to do my shoes up.

In wing chun I was taught to do slt on one leg. When we first started we were watched and coached and then my teacher told us to continue out of class time. And when we first started we did it with our leg on the back of a chair. I think it's useful, esp for making sure you're not shaking or jerking about on the beginning of the second section of slt for example.

Also I sometimes do kicking flexibility drills with one leg in the air.

[An jie 108]

[B]Golden Rooster Standing on One Leg:D Awesome training!

SLT for an hour on one leg........that would be the killer.( however you could always change back and forth) We use one leg stance for a number of things. Akin to that of ma bu or horse stand, in that it is a yang type of meditation, during slt as stated earlier, leg bent at the knee or out stretched for horse stance training( hands are tan sao / wu sao)
Like my appreciate for ma bu, I could not see wc without one leg training :p


when u are really good try it with your eyes closed:D

[An jie 108]

[B]Golden Rooster Standing on One Leg:D Awesome training!

SLT for an hour on one leg........that would be the killer.( however you could always change back and forth) We use one leg stance for a number of things. Akin to that of ma bu or horse stand, in that it is a yang type of meditation, during slt as stated earlier, leg bent at the knee or out stretched for horse stance training( hands are tan sao / wu sao)
Like my appreciation for ma bu, I could not see wc without one leg training :p


when u are really good try it with your eyes closed:D

[An jie 108]

sorry about the double and now triple posting...i actually did not think what i said was that interesting Zhen da:p

[Liddel]

Ok, sweet so the SLHS is alive and well.

But Are you guys using it in sparring / fighting (when u kick ) or just as a training tool ?

I do think our VT eight standard kicks are being used less frequently in sparring by many VT practitioners, and in my experience i see more and more borrowed kicks resembling more kick boxing type kicks being used.

It seems to me like a timing thing, people seem more comfortable launching kicks from greater range which warrents longer range kicking techniques ( VT or Not, as long as they work IMO ) with less close range kicks being launched.

Another question i have is -
When using VT closer range kicks , what are the basic rules you apply ?

This is why i ask (to point you in the right direction) At our School we never use the closer range kicks without hand / bridge contact, and we alwys employ the 'opposite rule' with regard to said kicks.

Example - i block a straight punch with wu sau and launch a kick with the oppsite leg so that in the event of my wu sau being pulled down i still can deliver power through my leg, where as if i use the same side and my wu is pulled down my kick and balance is affected resulting in loosing power and making it ineffective....

I notice other schools block with hands and kick with the same side in sparring and also within the dummy actions, i.e actions 63 64 65 ish. ( i say dummy actions also because i realise that we cannot be perfect in fighting so the fact its used in the dummy 'form' means to me that its a intentional action not an action of opportunity )

Im not looking for right and wrong, just opinions.
How do you guys stand on this point ?
Excuse the pun :rolleyes:
Curious

[AmanuJRY]

But Are you guys using it in sparring / fighting (when u kick ) or just as a training tool ?

LOL!:D

I, sorry Liddel, but you could easily re-phrase this question as 'when you kick, are you standing on one leg?'

When kicking, you are using the SLHS, any kind of kick...ANY! (because you have to stand on one leg)

Any SLHS training is developing the balance and coordination to stand on one leg while kicking....of course, you don't HAVE to call it SLHS...

;)

[ghostofwingchun]

LOL!:D

I, sorry Liddel, but you could easily re-phrase this question as 'when you kick, are you standing on one leg?'

When kicking, you are using the SLHS, any kind of kick...ANY! (because you have to stand on one leg)

Any SLHS training is developing the balance and coordination to stand on one leg while kicking....of course, you don't HAVE to call it SLHS...

;)

Mr Justin I am thinking you have hit the nail on the head . . . I would add though that every step we take involves SLHS too.

Thanks,

Ghost

[Liddel]

Thats basically the answer i was after, one way or another.....

What i was getting at was, that most people ive seen that say they are VT use kicks that dont come from VT IMHO.... they use longer range kick boxing etc kicks or something they have developed by themselves or at thier school which doesnt use the structure of the VT SLHS. Which is fine if it works...

Every kick must have one foot off the ground, but every kick doesnt use the structure of the VT SLHS, they are different in my experience. Therefore because of the different structure they each have different ways of generating power...

So my question does make sence if looked at from my POV, sorry i should have been more specific.
Or perhaps our SLHS is totally different from each other -

However if you think that the SLHS is just as simple as Standing on one leg, when IMO the structures are totally different then -
you have answered my question about this aspect of VT, or lack there-of.

I ask because i see VT kicks in forms - i see them in drills - but i very rarely see them applied in sparring/fighting with the same structure power use that people train for.... Its like training your center punch your whole life and then you fight and only use a hook.... even when the opportunity is in front of you...

Lets test my theory ( i could be wrong ?)
Anyone have any vids of 'VT kicks' being used other than form/drills ?

[Matrix]

However if you think that the SLHS is just as simple as Standing on one leg, when IMO the structures are totally different then -
you have answered my question about this aspect of VT, or lack there-of.
Liddel,
I think your point is well taken. While the kick is in a simple sense is "standing on one leg", there's much more to it then that within the context of Wing Chun structure. It's like saying a punch is just hitting someone with your fist.

[anerlich]

IMO many of the traditional WC kicks are unsuitable for anything other than very controlled sparring because they target the knee or ankle. Such kicks are also illegal in most kickboxing and MT rules. Like heel hooks in grappling, far too easy to get and the potential consequences far too serious. Knee recos are getting better with faster recovery all the time, but you DON't want one if you can avoid it.

My knees have taken enough training abuse already (numerous MCL tears and one bad cartilage) without being exposed to that sort of risk.

My instructor's adoption of less WC-specific kicks came from his days kickboxing in the late 70's early 80's when kicks *below* the waist were borderline illegal and were not scoring techniques. And they work.

If you can kick high targets with speed and power you can generally adapt to low targets without difficulty. The reverse is not always so true.

WC isn't unique in this regard. Savate has a smorgasbord of crippling and damaging kicks to low level targets. But they do not spar with these with any power for the reasons given.

I tried SLT in crane stance on the weekend. Frankly, I didn't find it particularly difficult. It would be much more of a challenge with larger movements than those found in WC. I do a crane form which has a lot more intricate footwork, multiple kicks on one leg, etc., which is much more challenging than this (and more interesting).

It might be taxing if I did SLT on one leg for an hour, though I'd have to wonder whether that hour couldn't be put to training uses that were a lot more productive.

[anerlich]

Now what MIGHT be a challenge is doing the pole form in single leg stance.

[chisauking]

Anerlick sez: It might be taxing if I did SLT on one leg for an hour, though I'd have to wonder whether that hour couldn't be put to training uses that were a lot more productive.

Try it and see! LOL

[Sekabin]

Anerlick sez: It might be taxing if I did SLT on one leg for an hour, though I'd have to wonder whether that hour couldn't be put to training uses that were a lot more productive.

Try it and see! LOL

I've seen many people do "SNT on one leg" before, often their stance is very high and their other leg is very low. IMHO, it's not training much at all. I genuinely do think that time could be spent better doing something else - like perfecting SNT on both legs, and practicing kicking/footwork seperately. Bring it all together in sparring and chi sau. If you want to practice 'single leg horse' fair enough, but doing SNT in it is not very productive IMO.

[chisauking]

Sek: I haven't done the single leg SNT for that duration either. That's why I wanted Anerlick to try and let me know the results LOL

[GungFuHillbilly]

I've seen many people do "SNT on one leg" before, often their stance is very high and their other leg is very low. IMHO, it's not training much at all.

You are correct in that poor training does not improve anything.

One of my music instructors used to say: 'Practice doesn't make perfect; perfect practice makes perfect.'

You cannot judge a training methodology by referring to lazy people that don't want to work hard or go outside of their comfort zone.

Training on one leg has a long history in China, Russia, and in modern sports and dance. Try the following and then tell me that it doesn't train anything...

[tansaujosh]

if im not mistake ( and im sorry if i am ) i thought the horse stance and SLHS was for leg condtiong, 2 make our stance better and fitness in the legs. if u want 2 train power and make a kick or punch or even technique stronger, faster or more powerfull then u train that punch,kick or technique:)

[Liddel]

Seems like a large part of the people responding have used the SLHS with regard to standing on one spot doing form.... while i think this is fine i wonder about other drills that you may do ? (if any)

One Example -
Stand in SLHS, get someone to grab your foot at the heel of your kicking leg (foot in front of your body), keep your knee's bent, then have them pull you around the room without you making your legs straight.
Obviously the floor must be smooth and you will need a sock on the grounded foot....

Sifu told me about a time when he saw two of his brothers try to starighten TST's leg in a similar fashon but failed because his leg power was quite large.
Good for retrieving a caught kick....and kicking power.

I have several drills related to the SLHS, the above example is one of them what about you guys, do you practice the one mentioned or others ?

Curious :rolleyes:

[GungFuHillbilly]

if im not mistake ( and im sorry if i am ) i thought the horse stance and SLHS was for leg condtiong, 2 make our stance better and fitness in the legs. if u want 2 train power and make a kick or punch or even technique stronger, faster or more powerfull then u train that punch,kick or technique:)

Power, conditioning, speed, and technique are not mutually exclusive. The stronger and more flexible your legs are, the more you can focus on control of power. If your legs are tight, weak, and have a decreased range of motion; this will directly affect your power and technique (while also increasing the chances for injury).

If your stance is weak, then chances are no technique is going to be effective no matter how long you train that specific technique.

The key to one-legged training is that we are training balance, strength, and control through a specific range of motion. These are not addressed by standard weight training exercises (leg extensions, leg curls, squats, etc.).

-GFH

[Liddel]

Good points GungFuHillbilly,

I notice no one has addressed the second question in my post related to using kicks when the hands are in contact...... what is your approach and why ?

Just to clarify - this IS NOT a bee-arch session where i want to uncover the WRONG actions of other VT schools because mine is the ONLY right way :eek:

If you've read my posts in other threads you know im an open minded person who accepts others opinions :rolleyes:

I just want to hear thoughts on the subject ?

[Airdrawndagger]

3 ways to train the legs using a kung fu approach...

1. Duck walk (i know, already mentioned)

2. Bunny hops. Same as duck walk in form but you hop around.

3. Standing straight, grab one leg by the toes. The leg you grab will be straight or should be for balance. In other words, plant your right foot and grab your left foot with your left hand. You will have better balance if your leg is straight. Then you do a one legged squat, maintaining your balance. Go ALL the way down until your butt is touching your planted foot and go back up. You cannot touch the ground! This exercise is the king of single leg training. Very difficult. Trains strength, balance, explosive power, and flexability...

Anyone try #3? Really tough!

[tansaujosh]

Power, conditioning, speed, and technique are not mutually exclusive. The stronger and more flexible your legs are, the more you can focus on control of power. If your legs are tight, weak, and have a decreased range of motion; this will directly affect your power and technique (while also increasing the chances for injury).

If your stance is weak, then chances are no technique is going to be effective no matter how long you train that specific technique.

The key to one-legged training is that we are training balance, strength, and control through a specific range of motion. These are not addressed by standard weight training exercises (leg extensions, leg curls, squats, etc.).

-GFH
thats the simplicity, its wing chun, if you are a gd wing chun practicioneer you would not need alot of motion to generate power for a strike, be it kicking, elbowing or punching.

[Simple_easy]

Wing Chun is a complete system, and because of that has a complete set of leg training exercises, starting with:

1- Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma
2- Chor Ma
3- Traditional Horse Stance and traditional squats
4- Single Leg Posture
5- Single Leg Extensions
6- Kicks in the air
7- Gaan Gurk
8- Dan Chi Gurk
9- Seung Chi Gurk
10- Kicking with the Mok Yan Jong
11- 8 leg motion with the Mok Yan Jong


These exercises provide more than enough opportunities for leg development. Plus they collected into Wing Chun, since many years ago. I think we should not understimate the experience of such people in the past had, and we should spend time training hard and not trying to reinvent the wheel!!!

obs:

Be very careful about your knees. You only have 2.

Traditionally Wing Chun kicks are practiced mainly against the Mok Yan Jong. No pads or bags.

Be careful with teachers that put too much enphasis on classes with 500~1000 kicks. Quality is much more important than quantity.

Be careful with military kind of squat exercises (duck, bunny, etc.....) They DO NOT have anything to do with control, flexibility and wing chun relaxed leg power.

The stretching used in leg training of Wing Chun is NOT the same as the stretching of some others martial arts.

[anerlich]

The stretching used in leg training of Wing Chun is NOT the same as the stretching of some others martial arts.

Could you elaborate?

I was aware that sensible flexibility and mobility training should be activity specific, per modern sports science, but not that it was quite this precise in its specificity.

My Sifu has a very high level of flexibility, and regularly demonstrates this and his kicking skills at MA exhibitions and the like. by all accounts sihing/James on this list is a flexibile and skilful kicker also.

AFAIK my sifu never needed any WC-specific stretching drills. Still, I'm sure he, and the rest of us would be very keen to hear about your WC-specific stuff.

[Simple_easy]

about stretching:


In Wing Chun you do the stretching when you practice Wing Chun forms, exercises, etc.....

For example, leg stretching: Single leg posture, Single leg slow extensions, and all the already mentioned leg exercises.......

Technically saying the Wing Chun kind of stretching is more a DYNAMIC kind and not a STATIC kind.

[anerlich]

Technically saying the Wing Chun kind of stretching is more a DYNAMIC kind and not a STATIC kind.

Well, OK, but most modern coaches do few static flexibility drills anyway. It's all mobility drills, dynamic flexibility exercises, and static active flexibility exercises (like the leg extension drills you mentioned). Iso metric flexibility if you want fast progress and your body can take it.

I can't see the difference myself, unless your trying to say that supplementary flexibility and mobility training is either unnecessary or counterproductive ofr learning WC, a position I can't agree with.

[Mr Punch]

For the record Andrew, I was taught a couple of wing chun specific leg-stretching exercises... at least I've only met them in wing chun. Not sure how effective they are though.

1) Stand on one leg (say right). Loop your left arm through from the outside of your left hip, back through past the back of your knee to the top again and seize you foot in your hand with your toes bent out (heel towards centre line). Extend your left leg and pull back at the same time with your left hand, whilst trying not to bend your back too much or fall over!

2) Vice versa (ie, your left arm from the inside of the thigh to the outside of the calf and grab the foot with the heel pointed out).

1 and 2 should be slow. 3 should be fast.

3) Stand on your right leg. Put your right wu sau in front of your bent left knee and pull back along centre line (thus pulling your left knee into bong gerk position).

Not very entertaining, and like I said, I don't know how effective they are, but I do do them sometimes.

[CFT]

1) and 2) sound like "Peking Opera" exercises. Thinking of the contortions that Jackie Chan and his sihing/dai practiced in their youth.

[anerlich]

They're not dissimilar to some yoga positions and BodyFlow balance exercises. But, I've not come across those exact drills in any other context.

[Mr Punch]

Well, I've only met them in wing chun... they come from either Yip Chun or Yip Ching.

I've also learned a wing chun specific arm-stretching exercise. From John D Virgilio's line, or maybe just his guy in Tokyo, I learnt an arm stretch where you make a bong sau into a horizontal elbow, then you place a wu sau under and on the back of elbow to stretch the bong muscles along the centreline. Then you whap out a tan, with the tan going out and the wu sau coming in.

It's quite nice, but again, I don't know if it stretches anything better than any other exercise would.

[CFT]

Nothing really WC specific, but some of my sihing take us through some leg stretching exercises for using the knee.

Raise knee on centreline (waist/sternum height) and rotate out and away from body. Repeat 20 times.
Repeat for other knee.

Raise knee to side of body (waist/sternum height) and rotate in to centreline. Repeat 20 times.
Repeat for other knee.

[bcbernam777]

What about the Chum Kui??

[anerlich]

What about the Chum Kui??

I give in, what about it?

Interesting stuff with the drills, mat and CFT.

[Mr Punch]

I actually like that arm one despite not knowing how useful it is.

It gets you providing opposing energy, one arm going forwards and one going backwards, so there is resistance there but of course it will have its limits so you aren't going to develop Arnie-style. It also gives you a good chance to practise relaxing your shoulders and try out some issuing energy.

It's as close as you can come to chi sau against yourself! :eek:

Well, ok, more like dan chi sau/lap sau drill.

[bcbernam777]

I give in, what about it?

Interesting stuff with the drills, mat and CFT.

The purpose of the Chum Kui is to utilise the Sui Lum Tao energy in movment and to use it in the single leg position, i.e. the transference of weight in the Chum Kui is 100% in the single lege so in the Chum Kui we learn how to transfer the 50 50 ratio into 100 in the single leg. I know some people do not view the Chum Kui as such, and there are endless arguments about the weight ratios in Chum Kui, but one only needs to look at the fundamental purpsoe of the Chum Kui to see the valididty of the 100% ratio. Also to properly absorb the Chum Kui, it should be performed at a medium pace, not quickly as is the case with a the majority of how the CK is performed. From my understanding the argument for a faster Chum Kui is that, that is how it is performed in various films depicting people such as WSL and CST, we must bare in mind however that they speed the form up for the benefit of the camera.


In the end it comes down not so musch about single stances etc it comes down to the principle of energy development, that is the true purpsoe in Wing Chun.

[anerlich]

Fair enough, sorry if I came across like a smarta$$.

I've always been a beleiver in doing most forms at a medium pace, though there is value in doing them both slow and fast on occasion as well.

I agree with the energy development aims, but I think there is value in supplementary drills to develop attributes like balance, mobility and flexibility (and more).

[bcbernam777]

Fair enough, sorry if I came across like a smarta$$.

I've always been a beleiver in doing most forms at a medium pace, though there is value in doing them both slow and fast on occasion as well.

I agree with the energy development aims, but I think there is value in supplementary drills to develop attributes like balance, mobility and flexibility (and more).


No no you didnt come across like that. It is good that yu think like that about the forms, and I also believe in the supplementary drills also, as long as they supplement attributes as long as techniques.

regards

Mark

[WingChunstudent]

This is very beneficial - in our school we often spar on one leg with one hand behind the back. This simulates a scenario where a limb has been incapacitated. It is also good for balance and stresses not to rely overly on the use of chain punches and two legs and arms in a fight.