Rank Testing

[NeuroGrrrl]

Ahoy. Tonight I just tested for orange sash. (I passed.) At my school the rank order is No rank-->white-->yellow-->orange for beginners, green-->blue-->purple for intermediate students, and finally red-->black for advanced.

Having just walked out of the kwoon, I can't stop wondering how our testing process might differ from other schools. Tonight I had to do the following:

calisthenics:
40 pushups
hold pushup position for 1 min on palms
hold pushup position for 1 min on fists
40 iron buffalos
40 monkey jacks
40 shaolin sit ups

(obviously these number increase as testing rank increases--yellow sash does 30 each, black sash test involves 100 each.)

It was at this point that one guy testing for yellow and another guy testing for green took the opportunity to throw up. I was proud that I did not have to join them at the bucket, although I certainly thought I was going to have to at one point.

Next, holding stances as low as possible for 1 minute each: horse, bow and arrow (left and right), tiger (l and r), golden rooster (l and r), cat (l and r), scissor stance (l and r) and horse again.

Next, the basic skills:
front instep kick, 10 lead leg, 10 trailing leg, each side
roundhouse kick, ditto
side kick, ditto
crescent kick, 10 each side, trailing leg only
all of above performed from fighting stance.
(The higher ranks had multiple other kicks to perform.)

10 each of corkscrew, sunfist, willowpalm, palm heel, hammerfist, ridge hand, reverse ridge hand.
10 each of high block, outside middle block, inside middle block, palm up block, yin-yang block, low palm block.
all of above done in horse stance. (my thighs are about to fall off.)

then, of couse, (drumroll please) the forms. At my level there are five empty-handed forms, and one weapon (nunchucks). So, all told I was there roughly two hours. The guy testing for red will be there until midnight, I am sure.

So, I'm tired and hurty. And I want to know if this is typical for a kung-fu school testing day. How do your rank tests work? Individual? Everybody on the same day? More than above? less? Based on your experience does my ability to perform the above place me at "advanced beginner" level by the standards of your school? Does your school even have ranks/tests?

I appologize if this is a topic that has recently come under discussion, I tried to search the forum archives, but I didn't find much along these lines. Oh, our style is Northern Shaolin. Probably should have mentioned that.

[Mr Punch]

Sorry, didn't see your post there in all the flame war BS...! It won't do you any good posting kung fu related threads here you know: please brush up your death-match-fu before you disgrace us with your presence here again! :D

Right, on to the serious answer.

Congratulations!

But.... no sparring?!:eek: Is your school just a show style like wushu or is it supposed to be some fighting apps too? If the latter it should definitely have some degree of sparring.

OK, next, what're

iron buffalos
monkey jacks
shaolin sit ups ?

I don't know but doesn't sound like anyone should have been throwing up...!

Can't remember which grade my last test was in fu (wing chun)... I didn't agree at all with the teacher's grading system (it was a money making scheme, with some pointless exercises, and with no internal integrity - ie people above me would forget their forms and couldn't fight as well as I could), and only agreed to take the test so I could get to learn the dummy and biu gee.:eek: (I left when I got them.)

Anyway, from what I remember it had:

40 pushups (seems a popular number)

some situps (can't remember how many - probably 40...?)

sil lum tao

chum kiu

san sik (16 solo 'techs' like tan da - tan sao and punch)

chi sao as aggressor

chi sao as defender from the six basic attacks

chi sao as defender and aggressor with called techs

free chi sao as defender and aggressor

san sao (called single or two/three combo attacks, when I didn't know what was coming but if possible had to do the called defense and follow-up with an attack of my own until down/ the teacher called stop)

free san sao

sparring.

The chi sao, san sao and sparring were with the non-testees with body armour, leg-pads, a face-guard helmet and mma gloves. I could wear a gumshield and cup and mma gloves. There were approximately 20 attacks in each format, with the non-testees being rotated to keep them fresh. The sparring was full contact for 20 mins no break, and the testees could do anything providing they showed at least three takedowns/throws (this was impossible to do properly as we had no mats). The whole lot took about one and a half hours maybe...

It was very tiring, and I had a back injury before we started so my teacher advised me against doing it that day. Got out of it with a couple of bruises, bloodied knuckles and lip, and blood from my arms from somebody's nails. The only pauses allowed during the test were to wrap up my arms in light bandages to stop the blood going everywhere.

When I can be bothered, if you're interested, I'll go over my aiki/kendo shodan gradings...

[David Jamieson]

rank testing ...

well, i guess that's cool. I never did it in chinese martial arts classes. Belts were used, or rather sashes and the teacher would advance you when you were ready, not really any sort of definitive test, but I am pretty sure there were criteria.

In tkd there was rank testing everywhere at every opportunity...I always thought that was a tkd / karate thing.

When I was learning Karate, it was not a ranking thing, although lots of my pals from other karate schools were doing much more formalized rank testing, particularly the shotokan guys.

Pretty likely that the version you have experienced is local to your school or affiliated schools only.

congratulations though.
:)

[MasterKiller]

Any chick that can do 40 push ups gets my respect! Most guys can't do 5.

[Ludeviews]

Yeah congrats, moving up grades always helps me to focus and step up to the next level.

My last grading was a big'un, divded up into 2parts.

Skills:
Involving 2 forms, chi sao, partner drills etc..

Mental/Physical:
Over 2 hours of Physical exertion including (lots of)
Sets of 50 pressups
Set of 60 situps
Sets of 1-2 mins of Tuckjumps
With Punching inbetween, burpees, holding your arms out, pressups on someones stomach while they are doing legs raises, Rabbit steps etc...
Followed up with milling one of the other lucky peeps that was there!

Thankfully we only have to do this once!

[Brad]

Never tested much in kungfu/wushu... When I did modern wushu I got up to blue sash (never tested for anything else... the ranking system was something my teacher was just trying out). I think there was some calisthenics, stance holding, self defence stuff, etc. I don't remember any specifics it was so long ago. Black belt test would have involved sparring a Muay Thai fighter, but no one ever got that far (teacher wasn't making any money here so he moved and the school folded).

My hapkido test (for yellow belt) was almost exactly like the test described in NeuroGrrrl's original post but less calisthenics (increasing with rank like her school though) and with different hand techniques of course (same kicks though). Basic blocks were the same, normal reverse punching, palm strike, a knife hand/chop (or something like that), and rather than forms there were a few two person joint lock/throwing techniques. And basic break falling of course.

Most recent teacher... no formal testing, no formal curriculum.

[Chief Fox]

Congratulations NG. Sounds like a good test. I'm also concerned about the no sparring. What's up with that?

[Oso]

Congrats.

Sounds like the test, and the school, has a good focus on basic physical conditioning. I'm guessing buffalo's and the others are just the teacher's names for squats and other basic stuff.

5 forms at your levels seems appropriate...maybe one too many,imo, depending on how long you are given to learn and get proficient at them and how long they are.

I agree about the no sparring.

What style are you doing?

What are 'nunchucks'? ;)





seriously, do you mean that you are learning a flexible weapon before staff?

[Fitdoc]

ditto the questions regarding sparring. At my school, rank progression includes sparring beginning at the white sash level (first sash level).

[PangQuan]

Any chick that can do 40 push ups gets my respect! Most guys can't do 5.

lol, 5....


i had to do 80 on my green test.

arent you glad your not "most guys"

edit:

ill join in. Whats up with the no sparring?

is this reserved for higher rank tests or do you not spar on test? also do you spar in class ever?

[Phil Redmond]

Here the TWC grading structure:
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/grading.asp
Phil

[SevenStar]

congrats on passing the test. Iron buffalos? Monkey jacks? Memphis? I know your teacher... ;)

[SevenStar]

OK, next, what're

iron buffalos
monkey jacks
shaolin sit ups ?

I don't know but doesn't sound like anyone should have been throwing up...!



iron buffalo = hindu pushup

monkey jacks = basically a squat jump. When you jump pull your knees all the way to the chest and your arms are circling in a reverse jumping jack motion - from the head down, as opposed to from the sides to above the head

shaolin sit up = a modified crunch. it's like a simultaneous leg raise and crunch.

as for hurling, it varies from person to person. I've never hurled on one of those tests, but I never hurled doing what I do now, either.

[SevenStar]

ill join in. Whats up with the no sparring?

is this reserved for higher rank tests or do you not spar on test? also do you spar in class ever?

at her level, probably not. Also, the test vary... the next group that tests for orange sash will not have the same test that she had. that is done so that nobody knows what to expect. for my green sash test, I had to spar everyone that was present that day, THEN i had to grapple them all, then I had to spar and grapple with the sifu. I never saw anyone else do a test like that.

When I trained there, we sparred pretty often, but it was declining. I'm not sure what they are doing now... I know two guys are supposed to be training for some ring fights though, so at least someone there is sparring.

[NeuroGrrrl]

Okay, to answer the above (and thank you, all, for sharing your experiences):

1. monkey jacks -- squat on floor, jump into air, bring knees to chest while aloft, land, squat again. Possibly what were referred to as "tuck jumps" above.

2. iron buffalo plows the field -- stand with feet wide apart, hands on floor in front of you, as far as you can reach. Now lower your torso towards the ground, but don't touch. push up. repeat.

that explanation was terrible, I know.

3. shaolin sit ups -- situps as designed by satan. lie on your back. now lift your torso and legs up into the air. you are now balancing on your glutes. slap the floor and push both hands to the left while crunching, repeat on right. when you've done 40 reps, return to "lie on your back" part. vomiting optional.

4. the no sparring -- this was a function of time. All the intermediate and above students had to do continuous fighting for various durations. The only reason the beginners didn't spar is because there were so many of us testing. When I took my yellow sash test, there were only two of us, so we did continuous fighting (with a red sash) for 3 minutes, 2 or 3 sets. I can't remember exactly because I got hit in the head a lot that day.

5. nunchucks, numchucks, nunchakus, numchakus, nunchakakhan, numchakalackadingdong. I have no idea, but Michaelangelo of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles used them. I have this particular pair:

http://www.martialartsmart.net/5031k.html

[SevenStar]

When I was there, the first weapon was the staff...

[PangQuan]

are you required to use the foam? or can you use wood if you like??

[Oso]

monkey jacks = frog jumps

iron buffalo plows the field = tiger pushups

shaolin sit ups = our 'monk sit up' had someone lean against a wall and step on your feet while you were in a sit up position. then you had to situp to full standing then sit back down.


funny how names are so different.



nunchucks, numchucks, nunchakus, numchakus, nunchakakhan, numchakalackadingdong

LOL ;) means 'joking' btw.

nice looking bike. is it back together now?

don't you know the dangers of posting pics of yourself anywhere these cretins can get a look at them?

[NeuroGrrrl]

We start the staff and the chucks at the same time, roughly when you reach yellow sash. I am about halfway through the staff form at this point. I believe that Sifu only recently started teaching nunchucks, because the senior students were just learning the form when I was.

We can use the wooden ones, we can also peel the foam off and they are wooden underneath. I just like the dragons. Sifu actually did mention that I'll need a heavier pair soon.

I realize the nunchucks comment was a joke, but I had too much fun thinking of plays on that word. Nunchuckwagon. Nupchuck. Or, for the very sophisticated, Nuncharles.

That's not me, that's my best friend Amy. I'm Taylor. There's only one picture of me on a site page, I'm hooked to a homemade eeg (NEUROgrrrl and all...) and about 40lbs heavier than I am now (thank you, kung fu). Amy is a brown belt in wado karate and has rooms full of tournament trophies. I really covet her bike, it is back together now.

[NeuroGrrrl]

how much nun could a nunchuck chuck if a nunchuck could chuck nun?

[SimonM]

My sifu didn't really take the belts/sashes too seriously. They were there because westerners expect belts.

Sometimes there were tests. The tests usually included forms and sparring (people at our school were expected to learn how to actually fight) sometimes there were no tests. Sometimes you didn't know that you were being tested.

Once I was tested by being told to teach the first half of a class. A week later sifu handed me a new belt after class. I asked if I was going to have to do a belt test and he said I already had.

[Oso]

ok, cool all the way around...still a sweet bike.

how do you make a homeage eeg? that would be super cool to test my Ichi powers.


I heard chuck norris taught bruce lee everything he knew about nunchucks...


ok, the punch line to that was even a bit beyond my usual tastelessness so i'll stop there...you can guess the rest.

I still say Chuck has hired a really good PR manager in the last 6 months.

[Oso]

well, I think you can argue the rank thing for days...but we had a pretty profound night last night in just class testing some kids for a 'star' on just there white sash kicks. We do 7 stars between each sash level and the curriculum is divided into 7 sections at each level and they test in class for those. Last night was the 'test' for kicks at that level and a couple of 'ok' kids got all serious and blasted out some relatively awesome kicks.

[NeuroGrrrl]

I suppose Westerners really do expect belts. In school I strived for grades and diplomas. I always studied hard with the immediate goal of doing well on the next test. The end result, luckily, was rounded education. Likewise, in the martial arts, I find myself motivated by the rank system. I would not have practiced my forms all weekend if I hadn't had a test on Monday. I have been trained since birth to strive for large goals based on the systematic attainment (and implied recognition and reward) of smaller ones

Has anyone seen the episode of the Simpsons where the childrens' school burns down? Bart absolutely thrives being out of school for so long, whereas Lisa starts to develop a severe anxiety disorder. She finally cracks and screams to her mother "test me, grade me, rank me!!" Marge writes an "A" on a napkin and hands it to Lisa to calm her. I am so Lisa.

What I wonder is...is this necessarily a bad thing? From a Buddhist/Taoist perspective, yes, I think this is in direct opposition to these teachings. But from a practical perspective? I wonder if I would have worked as hard learning medicine if I didn't know that at the end of the torture I would have earned the degree and title. On the other hand, it could be argued that no matter how badly one wants to attain a title or rank, no one will achieve advanced levels without discovering an innate love of the subject matter.

Perhaps, thus, one begins with the goal of achieving a rank and either 1) finds the work to be tedious and quits or 2) develops a love of the subject which transcends his or her original, perhaps petty, goals. Then, over time, one actually gains the rank DESPITE oneself.

Which reminds me of why I haven't reached enlightenment yet. Because I WANT to. I have to rid my heart of all desire and then, so my readings tell me, the light will click on.

I suppose this is why so many Westerners have turned to the Martial Arts and Eastern Philosophies--to escape the rank/title/award mindset which renders life a rat race. Ironic, then, the sashes and belts and testing, yes? Perhaps when the time comes for me to test for green sash I should decline the offer. Stay orange for years. Better yet, ask sifu to demote me to no rank again. Do the five forms I know and learn no others, simply perfect and polish and live these five.

I'm going to go meditate on this.

p.s. do it yourself eeg:
http://openeeg.sourceforge.net/doc/

[Oso]

Chris,

No doubt. I've never liked anything he did.

'Lipton' the host you love to hate. I love that show...the one w/ Billy Joel is perhaps second only to the one w/ Robin Williams. If you havn't caught the Robin Williams episode...holy crap! It's two hours long because Robin steals the first half hour with a level of insanity only he can kick out.

[Oso]

I suppose Westerners really do expect belts. In school I strived for grades and diplomas. I always studied hard with the immediate goal of doing well on the next test. The end result, luckily, was rounded education. Likewise, in the martial arts, I find myself motivated by the rank system. I would not have practiced my forms all weekend if I hadn't had a test on Monday. I have been trained since birth to strive for large goals based on the systematic attainment (and implied recognition and reward) of smaller ones

Has anyone seen the episode of the Simpsons where the childrens' school burns down? Bart absolutely thrives being out of school for so long, whereas Lisa starts to develop a severe anxiety disorder. She finally cracks and screams to her mother "test me, grade me, rank me!!" Marge writes an "A" on a napkin and hands it to Lisa to calm her. I am so Lisa.

What I wonder is...is this necessarily a bad thing? From a Buddhist/Taoist perspective, yes, I think this is in direct opposition to these teachings. But from a practical perspective? I wonder if I would have worked as hard learning medicine if I didn't know that at the end of the torture I would have earned the degree and title. On the other hand, it could be argued that no matter how badly one wants to attain a title or rank, no one will achieve advanced levels without discovering an innate love of the subject matter.

Perhaps, thus, one begins with the goal of achieving a rank and either 1) finds the work to be tedious and quits or 2) develops a love of the subject which transcends his or her original, perhaps petty, goals. Then, over time, one actually gains the rank DESPITE oneself.

Which reminds me of why I haven't reached enlightenment yet. Because I WANT to. I have to rid my heart of all desire and then, so my readings tell me, the light will click on.

I suppose this is why so many Westerners have turned to the Martial Arts and Eastern Philosophies--to escape the rank/title/award mindset which renders life a rat race. Ironic, then, the sashes and belts and testing, yes? Perhaps when the time comes for me to test for green sash I should decline the offer. Stay orange for years. Better yet, ask sifu to demote me to no rank again. Do the five forms I know and learn no others, simply perfect and polish and live these five.

I'm going to go meditate on this.

p.s. do it yourself eeg:
http://openeeg.sourceforge.net/doc/

dammmmmm....

Best Post by Member with less than 100 posts, 2006.

Welcome.

:)

[CoRWiN]

I believe it was in the morals and philosophies thread i asked the question how do buddhists/taoists justify things such as goals or is there no justification. Check out that thread to see their responces.

[Ou Ji]

I've seen a range of rank testing from being observed in class over a weeklong period to formal testing that included demonstrating techniques on partners and sparring multiple opponents.

I really not a big fan of formal testing but I can how it would be important and fulfilling to some.

What I like is the grappling way of rank advancement by consistantly beating guys at the next higher rank.

[NeuroGrrrl]

just don't let the belt become a noose...

what a great metaphor.


I am reminded of Chuang Tzu (Thomas Merton translation)

When an archer is shooting for nothing
He has all his skill.
If he shoots for a brass buckle
He is already nervous.
If he shoots for a prize of gold
He goes blind
Or sees two targets--
He is out of his mind!

His skill has not changed.
But the prize divides him.
He cares.
He thinks more of winning
Than of shooting--
And the need to win
Drains him of power.


In fact, even the Olympic Creed echos this:

"The most important thing in the Olympic Games is not to win but to take part, just as the most important thing in life is not the triumph but the struggle. The essential thing is not to have conquered but to have fought well."

Then, of course, they go and give out medals.

[Ou Ji]

Interesting story. Slightly similar to my past. I started in Karate and dropped before getting a black belt. I did bother me so I eventually landed in a kung fu school and I was adamant about staying 'to the end'. The 'end' being black belt, or equivalent.

So I stayed there for 15 years earning an instructor certificate. That alone satisfied my need for 'rank' but did not satisfy my need for skill and knowledge.

So, I'm off on another adventure. One that doesn't require ranks, title or certificates.

[Oso]

my background runs from 7 years w/ a teacher who didn't do rank

to 13 years w/ one who did and I certainly did like some aspects of it...especially when early on as a white and gold sash I was thrashing some (not all) of his black sash students ;)...and also much later as I became his senior student and got to teach a lot.

then I moved to be able to teach on my own and to look for more...the first thing I did was revamp the sash groupings by not strapping a sash on them first thing then as I joined up w/ Pong Lai and they did not use sashes I gladly chucked them and most of my students at the time gladly put them aside as well.

but, later, I saw that I wasn't reaching some of them...and wasn't reaching hardly any of the new ones and they were just kinda in a holding pattern...even with the tons of new material I was kicking out.

so, now, after my shifu decided that we were going to get organized. We are back in to a sash system and most everyone is content and happy and most certainly it seems to be proving a valuable focus aid w/ children.

so, maybe in America at least, it's got more to do w/ your market, who you attract in general, and not holding to a spiritual ideal as a teacher when your students don't have the same value. The vast majority of people out there have the idea of a rank structure in their head. If you can get them interested and move them on to other ideals later then fine.

[green_willow]

my background runs from 7 years w/ a teacher who didn't do rank

to 13 years w/ one who did and I certainly did like some aspects of it...especially when early on as a white and gold sash I was thrashing some (not all) of his black sash students ;)...and also much later as I became his senior student and got to teach a lot.

then I moved to be able to teach on my own and to look for more...the first thing I did was revamp the sash groupings by not strapping a sash on them first thing then as I joined up w/ Pong Lai and they did not use sashes I gladly chucked them and most of my students at the time gladly put them aside as well.

but, later, I saw that I wasn't reaching some of them...and wasn't reaching hardly any of the new ones and they were just kinda in a holding pattern...even with the tons of new material I was kicking out.

so, now, after my shifu decided that we were going to get organized. We are back in to a sash system and most everyone is content and happy and most certainly it seems to be proving a valuable focus aid w/ children.

so, maybe in America at least, it's got more to do w/ your market, who you attract in general, and not holding to a spiritual ideal as a teacher when your students don't have the same value. The vast majority of people out there have the idea of a rank structure in their head. If you can get them interested and move them on to other ideals later then fine.

I disagree that you need a sash to identify rank. The class should know the rank of everyone else from sparring. If they can't tell this thru sparring then there is a problem with the class and no amount of sash system will help.

[Oso]

I disagree that you need a sash to identify rank. The class should know the rank of everyone else from sparring. If they can't tell this thru sparring then there is a problem with the class and no amount of sash system will help.

good for you :D

[Becca]

Ahoy. Tonight I just tested for orange sash. (I passed.) At my school the rank order is No rank-->white-->yellow-->orange for beginners, green-->blue-->purple for intermediate students, and finally red-->black for advanced.

Our sashes are different and rather than a set number of calastenics, we need to "demonstrait our knowledge of streting exersized and power exersizes". And after we are all hot,sweaty and trying not to throw up from getting kicked in tummy sparring, we get to sit down to a nice written test on stylistic knowledge, history, and chinese terminology.

But other than that? Yep, pretty much the same.:)

[SevenStar]

We start the staff and the chucks at the same time, roughly when you reach yellow sash. I am about halfway through the staff form at this point. I believe that Sifu only recently started teaching nunchucks, because the senior students were just learning the form when I was.

yeah, that's new.

[green_willow]

that seems a somewhat extreme perspective, not to mention perhaps a little unduely judegemental...

if you're talking about a small school that is family-style, yes; but in a larger one, like more than 30 students, that would be difficult - especially as we all know how various people can fluctuate on a given day interms of sparring sucess, skill in that area alone is a pretty unreliable way to tell who's senior to who - it is also very confusing for newbies, especially those who aren't hard core types;

what's the deal where you train? is that how it works?

Sure on any given day ppl's skill can fluctuate. But there should also be a level of consistancy in performance over time otherwise it will be just random and the skill is worthless.

Sparring should be realistic enough - eg. senor vs senior - you should see very hard for either one to get their techniques working on the other because it will be countered. Senior vs junior - should overcome the junior in a couple of moves. senior vs intermediate - consistancy of success but more challenge.

In fact beginners will know who are the seniors real fast.

I've seen some TKD classes where the blue belt beats the black belt or is a tag game and neither gets anywhere - take away their belts and I won't know who is junior or senior - IMO belts is just for appearence

[SimonM]

There is another thing that is important to the senior / junior divide Green Willow. Something just as important within the martial arts community as ability to fight...

Ability to teach.

Just because you can drop somebody in the ring does not mean you can teach well.

[green_willow]

There is another thing that is important to the senior / junior divide Green Willow. Something just as important within the martial arts community as ability to fight...

Ability to teach.

Just because you can drop somebody in the ring does not mean you can teach well.

Yes, that's why all the higher ranks take turns to give instructons to the lower ranks. Even the higher ranks learn from the lower ranks if a lower rank spots something that a higher rank could improve on.

Even in terms of fighting skill - you could be the best overall, but it doesn't mean that you're better than everyone else in every department.

[green_willow]

good points, for certain - but I think it may be apples and oranges to some extent; for example, if you have blue belts beating black belts, it's not the belt per se that is the problem - it's how the rank is given out: some schools I have trained in gave away belts like candy; others it was paid for in sweat and blood; in the former, yeah, you saw the kind of inconsistencies you describe; in the others, not a chance: good quality control will make rank and skill consistent with each other; in turn, it can assist in the logistics of running a mid to larger sized school in terms of delegation of teaching, structuring of curriculum, etc. - I don't think it is an evil in and of itself; to be fair though, in my personal experience, the best training I have had was in schools that did not rank and they were all small, non-commercial in nature...but that's for me;

as for realism in sparring - again, i think you are projectng your own criteria a bit excessively: personally, i agree with you 100% - sparring should be as realistic as possible; but remember, for many if not most people MA is more a sport / recreational activity - they are not interested in hard-core / realism - now, that's their problem as far as I am concerned, as well as their instructors, for all of the obvious reasons; but for many/most folks, they like to have their little MA fantasy world, which includes a knowable structure they can visually depend on - it's like the Elks or Masons, except you get to hit each other a little and swing around neon-colored toothpicks while making strange noises...

Yes I agree if done correctly rank and skill should be consistent.

Sparring can be realistic but shouldn't be unsafe. think of a pack of wolves establishing thier pecking order. It's not done in a way that loses an eye or limb everytime. It's done though mock fights & play.

[Mr Punch]

Sparring can be realistic but shouldn't be unsafe. think of a pack of wolves establishing thier pecking order. It's not done in a way that loses an eye or limb everytime. It's done though mock fights & play.LOL

In most schools it's like a herd of chicken-necked geeks establishing their pecking order. It's not done in a way that loses glasses or street cred every time. It's done through slapping and play.


it's not the belt per se that is the problem - it's how the rank is given out...I don't think it is an evil in and of itselfAlthough generally I feel I don't need any ranking system, I've met a lot of people like NeuroGrrl who obviously feel much better with them.

And what Chris just said was exactly the problem I had with that school I mentioned. One woman who was above me had had an easy ride because she was a woman. She hated that she couldn't do anything she was supposed to be able to (she couldn't even finish the forms - the whole two of them! - without forgetting, let alone complete lack of any ability in putting the apps into effect) and was embarassed, and in fact kept comign to me for instruction because I was the onoly one who took the time not to mollycoddle her, but to teach her straight. But of course it wasn't my place to teach, just to give a rough guide to her as her senior... except... yep, as you've just read, she was my senior! :rolleyes:

Confused? So was everybody there!

In sparring I was obviously streets ahead of everyone else but I came from a different lineage so all that political bollocks got in the way: my 'teacher' wasn't going to grade me too high too quickly despite already meeting his system requirements, but every newbie who came to watch couldn't help but notice that I was frankly, the best there, and kept asking me for teaching... which of cousre I couldn't and didn't want to do in the face of the teacher (who liked walking around the clas on his hands and **** like that).

He never failed anybody a grading because (I guess) they would get some of their money back.

Can we say McKwoon?! But as the teacher knew his stuff (he was just a lazy showoff who never bothered to teach) if the grading system had been legit it would've made a difference... but then of course if there'd been no grading system it would've too.

[Oso]

it's all going to depend on the integrity of the teacher setting up and administering the system. No one can make a blanket statement about anyone else's system till they see it in action over an extended period of time.

[SevenStar]

Sure on any given day ppl's skill can fluctuate. But there should also be a level of consistancy in performance over time otherwise it will be just random and the skill is worthless.

Sparring should be realistic enough - eg. senor vs senior - you should see very hard for either one to get their techniques working on the other because it will be countered. Senior vs junior - should overcome the junior in a couple of moves. senior vs intermediate - consistancy of success but more challenge.

In fact beginners will know who are the seniors real fast.


I've been doing MA for years. However, if I started at another school in a different style, I would be a white belt. If we sparred, newer white belts would think I was a senior. For this reason, A ranking system would help them determine that I am not a senior in that style and that they shouldn't ask me questions that they should be asking a senior.

[Oso]

I've been doing MA for years. However, if I started at another school in a different style, I would be a white belt. If we sparred, newer white belts would think I was a senior. For this reason, A ranking system would help them determine that I am not a senior in that style and that they shouldn't ask me questions that they should be asking a senior.


good point.

[Judge Pen]

'chucks and northern shaolin? Interesting.

[SevenStar]

There were no chucks before... I'm not sure when that changed though. The first weapon we learned was staff, followed by the broadsword.

[green_willow]

I've been doing MA for years. However, if I started at another school in a different style, I would be a white belt. If we sparred, newer white belts would think I was a senior. For this reason, A ranking system would help them determine that I am not a senior in that style and that they shouldn't ask me questions that they should be asking a senior.

Does it matter - just say that you're not a senior and direct them to someone else. But at the same time you can show them what you know that adds value.

It wouldn't matter if its a TCMA school - because TCMA has a tradition of incorporating new ideas and evolving. It would matter if its a TCMB school (i.e. traditional chinese martial beurocracy). If that's the case you shouldn't be there or better still - kick their sign down and sack the phoney sifu and proclaim yourself as master..... just like the ole days (or the movies in the ole days.... wat everrrrrr)

[SevenStar]

Does it matter - just say that you're not a senior and direct them to someone else. But at the same time you can show them what you know that adds value.

bad form. for one, I'm not the instructor at your school. it would be somewhat disrespectful if I just started training at your school and was showing your students things from thai boxing that I thought would add value to what they do or what holes I see in what you have them doing. with belts, you don't have to worry about them asking, so yeah, it matters.


It wouldn't matter if its a TCMA school - because TCMA has a tradition of incorporating new ideas and evolving.

since when? doesn't hung gar brag on the fact that it is the style most unchanged from it's inception?

[NeuroGrrrl]

kick their sign down and sack the phoney sifu and proclaim yourself as master

I seriously wish you would try this at my school.


My apologies to the forum for baiting this troll, but the mental image I have while considering the above scenario is priceless.

[SevenStar]

nah, not your school. he should try it at sigung lee's school...

[green_willow]

bad form. for one, I'm not the instructor at your school. it would be somewhat disrespectful if I just started training at your school and was showing your students things from thai boxing that I thought would add value to what they do or what holes I see in what you have them doing. with belts, you don't have to worry about them asking, so yeah, it matters.

An instructor motivated by pride might find it disrespectful. An instructor who sees the value in cross training will be happy to have skilled students interacting with him and his other students.

If one is smart about it, one would find ways of adapting one's style to different environment as opposed to finding holes in a style that needs to be pluged up.

It's ironic that the belt system which is a measure of progress is actually the red tape that holds a student back. Such a strangle hold can eventually lead to the dealth of a school given enough thime.


since when? doesn't hung gar brag on the fact that it is the style most unchanged from it's inception?

Doesn't the dodo brag about being an evolutionary dead end?


I seriously wish you would try this at my school.

What about the ancestral shrine, has some other person already smashed it?

[Oso]

actually, he/she has pretty good TF.;)

[dainos]

LOL

In most schools it's like a herd of chicken-necked geeks establishing their pecking order. It's not done in a way that loses glasses or street cred every time. It's done through slapping and play.

Although generally I feel I don't need any ranking system, I've met a lot of people like NeuroGrrl who obviously feel much better with them.

And what Chris just said was exactly the problem I had with that school I mentioned. One woman who was above me had had an easy ride because she was a woman. She hated that she couldn't do anything she was supposed to be able to (she couldn't even finish the forms - the whole two of them! - without forgetting, let alone complete lack of any ability in putting the apps into effect) and was embarassed, and in fact kept comign to me for instruction because I was the onoly one who took the time not to mollycoddle her, but to teach her straight. But of course it wasn't my place to teach, just to give a rough guide to her as her senior... except... yep, as you've just read, she was my senior! :rolleyes:

Confused? So was everybody there!

In sparring I was obviously streets ahead of everyone else but I came from a different lineage so all that political bollocks got in the way: my 'teacher' wasn't going to grade me too high too quickly despite already meeting his system requirements, but every newbie who came to watch couldn't help but notice that I was frankly, the best there, and kept asking me for teaching... which of cousre I couldn't and didn't want to do in the face of the teacher (who liked walking around the clas on his hands and **** like that).

He never failed anybody a grading because (I guess) they would get some of their money back.

Can we say McKwoon?! But as the teacher knew his stuff (he was just a lazy showoff who never bothered to teach) if the grading system had been legit it would've made a difference... but then of course if there'd been no grading system it would've too.


that happens we are in a dark age of kung gu right now. i think my school works great on ranking and making sure that they know the standard stuff for that level, aka forms and standard combos and basics.
the women over my school the only rule about them is not grabbing private parts. hitting in the private parts is fine. so everything else goes. in fact many people think we are crazy so we dont even allow biggingers and intermeidates see the senior fighting. now about saying that sashes can be suffocating tape. they are that too. i just duck under the tape when they are not looking. i already know part of an advance form by looking at it.( they were teaching it to some of the newer red sashes). i know several grappling moves im not supposed to know. ive picked off alot of basics im not supposed to know. so i got alot more varity in stuff intead of standard. barely learend any green sash stuff. im the lowest rank that is learning two completly diffrent styles by the same teacher. which im still not supposed to know, but they are teaching it to me personaly anyway.

the first weapon we learn is supposed to be staff. then basically goes random after that. my sifu knows 13 diffrent syles and used to be in the special forces( basically an entire life of fighting he is 60+ years old) oops i forgot to quote "sifu" thats just his nick name now. his title is sigung.

he has offered that i take the next rank test to the others but i havnt been my rank long enough and i still dont have th standard stuff. it also kinda sucks that your basically the only one at that level,green,

our ranking system goes: none ,white, gold, blue, green, red w/stripe,red with 2 stripes and red with 3, then black 1st 2nd and 3rd , and maybe 4th.

we teach 4 styles at our school the website is www.kungfuclub.net

[GeneChing]

King’s Lynn Kuk Sool Won martial arts student's wife goes into labour – he carries on and passes grading while family 'facetimes' son's birth (https://www.lynnnews.co.uk/sport/martial-arts-students-wife-goes-into-labour-he-passes-grading-while-family-facetimes-birth-9102491/)
By Pete Woodhouse
Published: 15:08, 12 March 2020 | Updated: 15:09, 12 March 2020

February is the month for some adult students at Kuk Sool Won of King’s Lynn to grade for their next level in their martial arts journey.

Head instructor KSN Marie Brown with the help of some of the school instructors, put these students through their paces, going through and showing their skill at empty hand forms, self-defence techniques, breakfalls, kicking and hand striking.

All these students passed to the next level.

https://www.lynnnews.co.uk/_media/img/750x0/H4XILSJWDEBNP6RTDATW.jpg
Adult grading Feb 2020 Kuk Sool Won Ltd of Kings Lynn. (31403035)Adult grading Feb 2020 Kuk Sool Won Ltd of Kings Lynn. (31403035)

One of the students grading found out that his wife had gone into labour with their second child as he was about to begin.

After a phone call and short ‘facetime’ chat with the grandparents, which was hard to disconnect with, all to the amusement to all the students and instructors present, he decided to continue and complete the session.

Mum, dad and new son are all doing well.

To have a trial introduction to this varied martial art call Darren 07545239300 or Marie 07957961877.

I love martial arts but I'd never miss the birth of my child for it.