Reputations... (take II)

[Ray Pina]

Last night a girl I'm into stopped by right as the class I was teaching ended ... we were throwing the boxing gloves around. I showered. We settled down for a smoke and an old school kung fu flick was on and she said she used to watch them and apreciates the mental focus and spirituality side of it all and then the dude was killed trying to kill Bak Mei and she wondered .... "I don't get that aspect."

I didn't really know what to say, other than, sometimes you have to see how good you are.

But later, when falling asleep, I realised, I need to go out and fight. Otherwise, what am I doing other than beating up on my landlord's son .... he's big, but still a kid; a good kid.

And in there lis one of the reasons to go out and fight. Sure, there's dreams of doing something more with it, but at the heart of it, for me, is the desire to see just how far I can take it. To see if I can apply the material I'm learning against someone else's aplied material. I'm alive and training now. If not now, when? If not at all, why?

[GreenCloudCLF]

Is it just me, or after reading Rays post doesn;t everyone else want to know????














































Did you score?:eek:

[Ray Pina]

Nah. I don't want to make any big, sudden movements... got to treat this one just right;)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Ray, i appreciate your perspective of challenging yourself, i did it, too.. but, i found out that sport-fighting, short of no rules/bare knuckles, is a self-deception.. a good friend got me part-time job as a bouncer, and there is where i learned about control and chaos.. the ring just doesn't do it.. it's a pretty good warm-up, but there's no edge, no question of life or death conflict.. I picked up more scars and lessons bouncing for a year and a half than many years of ring-work.. That is not to say that the ring-work didn't prepare me for the job, but.. the first time someone flashes steel with ill-will, perspectives change.. i did a tour in SE Asia 1969-70, and i can say with certainty that there in no teacher like facing your own mortality..

A reputation is nothing.. i've seen the best fall and the worst rise in situations that challenge their mortal existences.. My caution is to be realistic, see the game for what it is.. a game.. If you want to find out "who you are", put it all out there.. there are great ways to do this.. bouncing is not the best, but i was too old to re-up in the military when i decided to look actually into my own soul.. Law enforcement, Special Ops military, Private Security Contracting, Mercenary work, etc.. sit down with some of these guys, listen to their stories, get a sense of the willingness they have to stand-up in the face of terminal consequences.. then, go back to the ring.. it's almost comical..

You seem sincere, Ray.. that is why i offer these perspectives.. the games are great fun, but.. put it to real use, make it count for something.. that's how we find out "who we are"..

Be well..

[Chief Fox]

Wow, Bob, great post/perspective as always. It's posts like this that keep me comming back here. Thank you.

[Ray Pina]

Great post TCB and you're right, but this is my outlook now, at this stage of my life.

I have a friend who just won another NAGA and Grapplers Quest, he's a very good BJJ practioner, just got his purple belt .... but he got his face stomped in a bar recently. The thing about the street is that it's unpredictable .... numbers, weapons, etc. You can increase your awareness and avoid but you just never know.

At the same time, because of Throwdowns and competing, I am definitely more confident facing potential violence in my day to day .... and believe me, with the attitudes in NYC you can get into a fight over a cab not letting you cross the street after a bad day.

But anyway, my focus now is on beating the good competitive fighter. I know I can handle most regular martial artist, but the young kick boxer, the serious MMAist. If I can pick up my training (which I started last week) to at least be on the same level as them, as an internalist I'll have made great progress.

You know, when you get your nose broken and don't get much support from classmates, etc, you start to think: why am I doing this? Should I just quit? Or should I just teach what I know?

I thought about that for like a nano-second and realise I'm way too far in to quit, it's a part of me. So, if I'm in, at this stage, I have to go for it. I have to see what's considered high level and do what I can to face that challenge as a 31 (soon to be 32) year old internalist. I'm lucky that at this stage in my life there are forums to do this.

I definitely don't have a death wish, and consider myself and my generation lucky for never having to experience war first hand. Thank you for your service. I highly respect all the men and women who sacrifice their time and potentially their life in service of their country, or, because they had no where else to go. I could only imagine what it must be like when the **** hits the fan. In the end, I know this is all a sort of game on one hand, but on the other my master has fixed me knees, taught me how to stand tall as a man, and, from time to time, display that I actually am of sound mind.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Ray: Thanks returned with humble bows.. your quest is not without sound merit, and.. i do respect each person willing to challenge their limitations.. we cannot realize our full potential inside contrived boundaries.. i wish you well, and success in your quest.. it's a hard road to travel, but the view is spectacular..

Be well...

PS: Considering what it is that we do, the "sound mind" thing migh be a bit much..:D

[FatherDog]

You know, when you get your nose broken and don't get much support from classmates, etc, you start to think: why am I doing this? Should I just quit? Or should I just teach what I know?

At that point, what you need to do is sit down and think about whether you really want to train with people who won't support you in what you're trying to do with your training.

[fa_jing]

word. Sounds like you're going about things the hard way. Why not train with an organization that expects it's students to compete? Doing this without full school support, it's struggling against the wind.

[PangQuan]

Sometimes to get what you want you have to go where you dont want to be.

life has time and again proven that hardships will be placed on your path.

You train for yourself, to get what you want you need a master. You have found a master that can provide what your looking for. If you want what this master has, you will deal with the hardships until you complete your goals with him.

I have the same deal at my school. there is a very small amount of support there. but the material is present, the master is just that, an actual master. I find that having little to no support can actually help put where my growth is at in perspective.

Reputation:

It can be good for business, it can be bad for business. Having no reputation is the safest of reputations.

[SevenStar]

Greetings..

Hi Ray, i appreciate your perspective of challenging yourself, i did it, too.. but, i found out that sport-fighting, short of no rules/bare knuckles, is a self-deception.. a good friend got me part-time job as a bouncer, and there is where i learned about control and chaos.. the ring just doesn't do it.. it's a pretty good warm-up, but there's no edge, no question of life or death conflict.. I picked up more scars and lessons bouncing for a year and a half than many years of ring-work.. That is not to say that the ring-work didn't prepare me for the job, but.. the first time someone flashes steel with ill-will, perspectives change.. i did a tour in SE Asia 1969-70, and i can say with certainty that there in no teacher like facing your own mortality..

I dunno... I've been bouncing for the past 8 months, and while the situation is different, it really hasn't changed my perspective much. I will say that it takes a certain type of person to get into such a line of work - Not everyone is cut out to just fight all the time, with so much variation and so many dangers. A co-worker of mine is a TKD black belt and has been there for a month or so less than I have. He told me recently that it gets to him and that he wants to take a break from it for a while. We've also had guys quit after taking a beating. At the core of it though, I know that it's my ring training and experience that helped to prepare me for what I deal with now, no question about it. I don't view ring fighting as comical now.

[SevenStar]

Fa_jing and fatherdog are right on. you need to be training with people who have a similar goal as you. Back when I was training longfist, I ran into a TKD guy. He competed on a national level and had hopes of going to the olympics. One day, I offered to be a work out partner, hoping we could spar. He declined saying that What we do are two different things and that sparring a kung fu guy would not help his TKD goal at all. I can respect that, as he was trying to surround himself with training partners similar to himself. I still see him on occasion, and we talk - just not about MA.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

SevenStar: As a clarification.. the ring comedy is the self-important air that so many fighters have.. combat at any level carries risks, but most ring events have limited risks.. i've seen really good ring fighters freeze in the face of real danger.. and, i've seen poorly skilled ring fighters stand up and back 'em down.. it's a very different environment.. courage is revealed when there's no safety valve, no refs..

Be well..

[Golden Arms]

Agreed TCB, I think part of this comes from the fact that some good ring fighters in any discipline get used to being good at 'playing the game'. For instance, lets say a boxer hits round 8 or 9 and is way ahead on points, some will go in for the kill, but many will also be smart and just get on the bicycle because that is the high percentage vs. low risk.

I am not sayin in any way that sport fighters arent tough, because one I have done and still plan on doing more of my share of it, but I also know that some of the best sport fighters I have known are not necessarily the best fighters out there in brutality, they are really good at their game instead. That being said, the intensity you face when fighting opponents that really want to go through you to win is very healthy if you are trying to have realistic training and a good skillset in the real world IMHO, I just wouldnt make it my soul focus personally.

Ray, I echo your thoughts, and hope we will get to throw down some day and bounce ideas off of each other afterwords. I like to hear someone else out there is working towards something along the same lines as myself regardless of whether people back him or not, keep at it.

Unfortunately in CMA, I sometimes feel like I would have been much happier if I had been born even 30 years earlier. I think finding more hardcore people in the martial arts would have been hopefully a little easier back then from what I have been told. I know they are out there now, but they are fewer and far between, and most people would rather talk for half hour about stuff instead of showing up to work the next day with a black eye and a split eyebrow. Just thinkin outloud.

FA

[Sow Choy]

Ray,

I love that movie...

I believe its called "Shaolin Executioners" here in the USA, there its "Hung Hay Koon", starring Chan Koon Tai.

Here is a pic of him and also Lau Ga Leung...

Chan Koon Tai is the last on the right, Lau Ga Leung is 2nd from the left...

Also is my sifu Li Siu Hung & myself.

http://www.leekoonhungkungfu.com/images/HK05-021.jpg

Just wanted to share, I love those old movies...

Joe

[TenTigers]

"A reputation is nothing.. i've seen the best fall and the worst rise in situations that challenge their mortal existences.. My caution is to be realistic, see the game for what it is.. a game.. If you want to find out "who you are", put it all out there."

Bottom line-do it to prove it to yourself, challenge yourself,go beyond your limitations. But if you are looking for a reputation, forget it. Reps are seldom earned,easily forgotten, and rarely of any substance. Usually the work of a mutual promotional aggreement-known as "The Good Ol Boys Club." , such as the federation which shall remain nameless, but appears every 5-10 years to charge a membership fee and for a demo. Dave knows what I am talking about.
Sure, there will be a few who hear about someone, and seek them out, but for the most part, people don't know, or care. Christ, they don't even know the difference between TKD and Kung-Fu. Tiger Shullman is relatively an unknown, and yet he has about 40 schools. It's not about reputation. It never is about reputation. The only one who cares about your reputation is you.
Don't do it for the rep, do it for yourself. For your own personal journey, and self-development.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


the point is that, like other more well-established sports, you really need to train very sport-specific - for no other reason than the psychology of competing in a certain sport is very unique to it - in fact, it's what basically gives the seasoned competitor the edge - its that lack of apprehention about what is going to happen - if you don't have that comfort zone, you are essentially dealing with the newness of being in that sort of competitive situation
Do you think we over-specialize our training? Isn't there some level where we descend into such a specialized aspect that we deprive ouselves of the necessary "well-rounded" quality of a competent fighter? Should we question a system that excludes certain aspects of hand-to-hand combat in favor of its own niche' ? In other words, if i train in a system that leaves me lacking against other systems, am i being true to my goal of becoming a competent Martial Artist? Noting the lack of truely "well-rounded" systems it seems only prudent to cross-train.. to at least develop a usable stand-up and ground game..

I think the preservation of historic arts is essential and wise.. but, i also think that common-sense suggests that we be honest with ourselves and evaluate our goals.. if we wish to be competent Martial Artists we have to train as such, multiple disciplines and "live" testing of our progress.. if you can't hold your own in a controlled environment, the streets will be even more brutal.. There are other considerations in self-evaluation, many people simply have no desire to rise to the level of intense competitiveness.. there is no dishonor in this approach, as long as the person is honest with themselves and others.. it IS a great work-out, a good social environment, and confidence builder.. i am appreciative of those students that turn out to support the competitors, that contribute to the school.. they are usually pretty good people.. and deserve respect for their place in the MA world, as well.. Team-work!! every sucessful team has support staff and reserves lesser qualified than the "1st string".. respect throughout the team is esential for the team's success..

More than anything, it seems to me that someone's reputation is squarely based on their ability to be honest with themselves and others.. high skills or low skills, i respect the person that put themselves out there without the BS..

Be well..

[Green Cloud]

Hey ten tigers, just wondering are we talking Martial rep or huntington rep. You know what I mean remember Cristophers, I think we both establised a sorted rep in huntington if you know what I mean;)

[TenTigers]

Hey, "What goes on in Christophers STAYS in Christophers!" :cool: *shhhh!

it must've been the Ng Ga Pei,
cool thing is, how many bars let you bring in your own bottle, get smashed and cause major havoc on their premises? Good Times, Bro!

[TenTigers]

Ng Ga Pei rulz-no matter what differences we might have had before, they were all washed away with Ng Ga Pei! (That and a few well kept secrets)

[rogue]

Hey homies, where's Christopher's?

[hskwarrior]

Ng Ka Pei Really Messes You Up!!!!!!


I Tried Some Others And They're Just As Potent.

No Wonder Those Drunken Masters Were So Good. The Ng Ga Pei Numbed Them Up Pretty Good.

[TenTigers]

Sifu Gus and I had our schools in Huntington, literally a stone's throw away (sorry about your window!:-) and the "Holy Ground" was Christopher's, one of the many bars in town. Good place, pretty barmaids, sometimes live music,and a back room. and an outside seating area as well. The "Village" of Huntington used to be a hip little area, like Long Island's Greenwich Village, cool little shops, bars on every block-during school breaks, and in the summer, nothing but people roaming around, going from bar to bar. They have a ST Patrick's Day parade, and the entire town is just drunk. (large Irish population, many Irish pubs)
The area has been bought up by the whole Starbucks, Gap superstores, and the cool little Mom n Pop shops and chochkas stores have been pushed out, but the bars are still there!
Anyway, Christopher's was two stores from my school, and everyone used to hang out there. It was not uncommon to see guys from both schools hanging out and drinking together. It was our bar. The only bar where people walked in still wearing their uniform pants and t-shirts and nobody batted an eye. And both Sifus hanging out. Let's just say, it was a very safe bar.

[rogue]

Yeah the Huntington Village was great. Around town you'd see Billy Joel, Christy Brinkley, Jerry Cooney, Ralph Maccio, Dee Snider and Ritchie Blackmore. Did a few pub crawls in my day and crash at my friends house on High Street. Even played in a few of them.

Now you're getting me nastalgic. Remember Hamburger Choo Choo/Swenson's. For years on Christmas Eve at 12 midnight we'd all meet at the Rose and Thistle. What was the name of the diner across from Central Pres. Church? I had one girlfriend who lived out in Llloyds Neck.

[TenTigers]

Mundays Diner? or the Blue Dolphin? on the corner there is Chesterfield's a bar upstairs that allows cigars, and has a blues jam every sunday. That's where I can be found with a glass of B&B, an Artuoro Fuentes, and my black Les Paul.

[rogue]

Chris, I used to frequent the Dodger myself. Small world. :)

Ten, I think the diner was called Soviero's. Chesterfields sounds like where Cooney's used to be. Is Deraimo's Pizzeria still around? I know the Thistle was torn down. **** I've got to visit up there soon.

I never got into a fight while in Huntington except when we were at a bar called Sparks a little ways out of town on 25A.

I was from the south shore but I always hooked up with girls from the upscale neighborhoods in the Huntington area. Married one from Laurel Hollow.

Talking about reps, you'll lose yours playing jazz on a Les Paul. You got that Al Dimeola look going on? ;)

[TenTigers]

nah-but one guy called me Jimmy Page.
Boy, ya show up to one blues jam with a LesPaul, and an overdrive pedal, and they immediately label you! I guess if I brought my Strat, they'd be callin me Jimi Hendrix, or Van Halen. How about Jimi Van Page?

[Green Cloud]

Now you guys are making me miss huntington, boy did I have fun in taht town. I thought after 8 years I'd have that town out of my system, hey is Chesterfield's still around.

You would think me and rick would have been at each others throats, but we were to busy having fun. I'm talking about fun. We taught Kung Fu in the village and partied in the Village. What were we suposed to do we were surounded by bars.

I moved out of the town because I was having too much fun. ANW those were good days.

[TenTigers]

Gus and I did something very unique-since we were so close to each other's schools, we did the opposite of what everyone expected. Instead of trying to compete with each other, we united and made all the other Martial Arts schools look sick. In Huntington, there were around eight Martial Arts schools,all within three square miles of each other. We realized that if Gus and I badmouthed each other, it only made us look insecure and petty, and neither of us would get students, so we did the opposite. We referred people to each others' schools.
Bottom line, people go where they feel comfortable, and each person has a different personality, as well as each Sifu and their school has a different personality. It boils down to chemistry. To say your school is better than another won't sway someone towards you, it will push them away-and the type that would go to you because you badmouthed someone else...well, you don't want to fill your school with that type of student, because you will implode. Your school will eat away at itself from the inside.

[rogue]

TT, What other schools were in HV and where?

[TenTigers]

Shaolin Kempo Self-Defense Centers, Nokado Dojo (opened and closed within months)Green Cloud, Myself, NY Martial Arts Hombu, Little Gym-had a pee=wee Karate class, there is now a JKD guy, an Aikido guy, and some hodge podge Muay Thai wannabe
in Huntington, but out of the Village-
Tai-Zen, Karate Way to Fitness,US Karate Academy, Serra BJJ, Ronin-Do Karate, Go-Ju Ryu. Inner Circle-JKD, another Kempo school just opened up

check this out-when I first opened, our school was called Shaolin Ch'uan-Fa, and people used tp call SHaolin Self-Defense Centers, because they thought it was my school. They would ask for "Rik" and the guy at the school, would say."Rik is not here right now, can I help you?" and try to sign them up!

[rogue]

I briefly collected or bought some belts at the Villari's in Babylon in the 80's so that story doesn't surprise me. I remember going to a school on NY Ave back in the late 70's that my karate sensei was affiliated with but I can't remember the name of it.
How are the rents for space up there?

[TenTigers]

that's why we moved out of the village-we were renting 2000sq ft, upstairs, and paying 3600. a month, not counting electric, gas, etc. I figured that I would be right in the heart of town, but it ends up, Huntington Village is not easily accessable. We found a space upstairs over a laundramat in a "borderline" area, which was better for us. The rent is high, and if you want ground floor on a main drag, such as rte 110, or Jericho Tpk. you will pay ridiculous money. I have seen Martial Arts schools open and close before the paint was dry.(one school, a JKD guy, started to open, I would drive by his place and look in. One day he was putting up studs and drywall, and the next week, the place was for rent. He never opened.) I only wish there were good industrial space. I have a friend who has a Karate Dojo in Ronkonkoma, in an industrial space, which is within a residential community. It is huge, beautiful, and cheap. That is a rare combination. The industrial space here is right in the thick of where all the gangs are-bloods, crips, and a large contingent of MS13.

[TenTigers]

in the 70's there was a Shorin Ryu school that shared space with Tonny Kho's Hung Mei P'ai Kung-Fu. The Sensei stopped in when I first opened, he even gave me a set of old Japanese sparring chest gear-like kendo gear, but covered in black canvas. I still have it-it must be a hundred years old. Hung Mei P'ai recently retired their Lions and they called me up and said,"We want you to take all our shows" I have mixed feelings-I am happy and proud that they asked me, but sad to see their Lions retire. They were the first Kung-Fu school on Long Island, and the first Lion Dance I'd ever seen. I had a few friends from that school, and some fond memories.

[rogue]

Some of the places in the 70's were pretty crazy and did stuff that would keep them from getting insurance in this day and age.

That's the thing about location, even if you have a good school in a great area being hard to get to can kill you. I used to haul up to HV all the time from Babylon and it was a bear. I know some of those border areas, like around the train station or that part around Saint Hughs? I think there's a big Hispanic community in there now. Down here finding space doesn't seem to be a problem and we even have some good schools.

[Green Cloud]

His daughter trains in my school, I think she said that he is still teaching in his garage in Sayville. But that's cool that he gave you his Lion dance route. I guess you be getting some easy money this New Year.

[TenTigers]

EASY??! are you effin kiddin me? all his shows are way the eff out there in Sayville, Islip, etc, and we go from there out to Northport, Huntington, Westbury, Flushing, NYC =I am freakin tired!
that being said, I really needed the bread. I had a dip in enrollment and this really helps during those times.

[Green Cloud]

Yea I know what you mean, I used to do it for my sifu and as cool as it was it was hard work. ANW I stopped doing it after CTS got sick.