is There Lock and break bones and ground fightinig in chineese Art like in japanese

[MAX]

my firends i am searching for a chinese art's contain lock and break bones and much more like in the japanese Aikdo and i am searching chinese gorund fighting like in the japanese jiujitsu and wrestling like in the japanese judo........


please every one understand me i want the name of the chinese art's that's contain what i want so help me and give me the detail which one is for ground fighting and which one is for wrestling and which one is for lock's and break's

[hjt]

my firends i am searching for a chinese art's contain lock and break bones and much more like in the japanese Aikdo and i am searching chinese gorund fighting like in the japanese jiujitsu and wrestling like in the japanese judo........


please every one understand me i want the name of the chinese art's that's contain what i want so help me and give me the detail which one is for ground fighting and which one is for wrestling and which one is for lock's and break's

chin na is joint manipulations with some bone breaking mostly small bones fingers and wrist.

shuai jiao is mongolian wrestling, very hard throws

some styles themselves have some form of joint manipulation and bone break hung ga is one of them.

[lkfmdc]

Traditional Chinese martial art, much like traditional Japanese martial art (ie Jujitsu) has a lot of standing grappling, primarily to do two things;

1) Control a person so they can not use their weapons

2) Throw the person either to do injury (the "hard throw") or to put them in a position where you could "finish them" (in traditional context this usually mean kill them with a weapon)

Within the context of these traditional arts, where weapons were considered part of the equation, the idea of the ground fight was to get back onto ones feet and escape. IE most ground techniques revolved around kicking a standing attacker to either bring them down, or let you get back on your feet. Even Fukien Dog boxing, with it's vast "ground work" does not have ground work in the sense that more modern Judo, Sambo or BJJ does...

There are a variety of arguments regarding the uses/applications of modern ground fighting more similar to Judo Ne-Waza/BJJ... perhaps if Knife Fighter isn't in a grumpy mood he'll add some of his thoughts

[Knifefighter]

Lots of people are working on modern unarmed vs. knife techniques. There's STAB, the Red Zone program, and Demi B's stuff. Most of them involve some type of two on one control of the weapon arm.

My personal take on the situation is that, often, your best bet is to take it to the ground if a weapon is involved at close range and you are unarmed. This involves controlling both the weapon hand, as well as the weapon, and specific use of a modified guard.

[David Jamieson]

i personally am a proponent of escape when knives are involved.

ie: get the he11 out of there

but two on one arm control oif the knife hand is the other alternative if there is no escape.

too many variables with weapon vs no weapon.

In the last 5 years i have done a bit of work in this area, and I still think escape is the way to go.

[lkfmdc]

KF, would love to see it up close of course, may have to check out those programs you listed.... sounds perhaps conceptually like what my teacher advocated. He concentrated on the weapon almost to the total exclusion of worrying about other factors. IE he isoloated that limb from the rest of the body as quickly as possible in order to disarm.... if you have time, perhaps write some more...

[Oso]

two on one control of the weapon hand seems almost mandotory.

yes, used to do a fair amount of empty hand vs. blade and blade vs. blade via modern arnis...everyone bleeds :p

KF has much more technical knowledge to impart if he chooses...if he doesn't, he has in the past and is probably still archived.

ime/imo, technique aside, the best tactic is to immobalize the knife arm, if you can pop something at that stage and start creating pain and damage then good. If not, you have to start trying to break that freaking elbow as fast as you can, 'body arm bars' to me being the best was as you can then trap the upper arm between your upper arm..that is assuming your two on one control is focused at wrist and hand...if not you risk a pretty serious brachial cut.

KF:

What type of training have you seen to deal with the the attacker taking the knife from his trapped hand with his free hand?

Are the new 'systems' of knife defense taking what I refer to as the 'BJJ slow/positional' approach?

As In:

Trap/smother the knife hand > gain positional advantage > then do something about a disarm???

[Becca]

here's my question: has any one ever tried fighting an armed opponent, like as in sparing knife versus empty hand?
Yes. And the first thing Sifu told us was to keep the knife away from our body. That with a real knife, there would be cuts, but it's better to be cut on the arms or legs than on the torso or head. And even training knives an cause injurry to the head and neck.:)

And I know from training knife vs. empty hand that if your trying to intercept an overhand strike and block it even a bit too late, washing your hair will su(k for several days, as the soap will get in the scab.:eek: ;)

[lkfmdc]

Even as far back as when I was doing Hapkido, with some of it's not so useful techniques, but even back then, we were told you don't "spar" with a person with a knife... if there is space RUN LIKE HECK... otherwise, remember that if they want to really hurt you they are gonna come after you with committment and that is your ONE chance...

But I also remember a quote which stuck in my mind since I was a kid, I forget who said it, but it rang true

If someone like (Dan) Inostanto wanted to hurt you with a knife, there wasn't a hell of a lot you are gonna be able to do except die....

Bring a gun to a knife fight, not your bare hands....

[Oso]

we were told you don't "spar" with a person with a knife

of course not in a real situation.

but are you saying to only drill and not practice defense vs. knife and not fight/spar for practice of the drilled applications?

it's true that you should even the odds by getting something w/ longer reach than the knife...a gun fits that description but not everyone is going to carry.

I think it's assumed that you would only fight someone w/ a knife for a very good reason.

[Golden Arms]

Here is where the flames begin I am sure, but about 10 years ago, when I was 5 or so years into my Aikido training, I was attacked by an untrained person (I am assuming) with a BIG knife, maybe 9" or so long. Anyways, long story short, there was no room to run, and no time to think, but somehow I used a tenkan kotegaiishi (sp?) technique, managed to disarm the knife and throw the guy a couple feet onto his back on a table with a jacked up wrist. Goes to show that training hard pays off (I had been training close to 30 hours a week for 5 years) and it also goes to show that I got lucky. Even to this day I think about it and wonder how I didnt end up with that thing stuck in my guts.

Wow, unarmed knife defense and aikido in the same post, I wonder who will be the first to talk smack.

[lkfmdc]

Self defense is often dumb luck, but if you live to tell the tale who cares?

Most people will tell you, it isn't the technique, it is your ability to use the technique. IE, if you say something most likely won't work, it really means that for most people, most of the time, it won't.... in all honesty I once saw a Korean deli guy kick a knife out of a guy's hands... but it isn't a technique I'd rely on :D

[Golden Arms]

Heheh Amen

That being said, I do think if you train almost any style until you learn 'how to move' and you do it under pressure, you have just raised the chances of you coming out of things better off by quite a bit.

I like that quote from the documentary in 'The Hunted' where he says, "if two trained knife fighters go at it, one of them is going to the hospital, and the other is going to the cemetary".

[ShaolinTiger00]

i personally am a proponent of escape when knives are involved.

ie: get the he11 out of there

but two on one arm control oif the knife hand is the other alternative if there is no escape.

too many variables with weapon vs no weapon.

In the last 5 years i have done a bit of work in this area, and I still think escape is the way to go.


David, I've been doing joint rape prevention seminars with local LEO. One thing that we try to drive home is that a crimnal looks to make a situation as lop-sided as possible in their favor. ex- not only will they use a weapon but they will also trap people in situations where they cannot escape or run away easily.

so take the reverse and consider that when you park a car in a garage, walk a dark street, etc.

[lkfmdc]

Unrelated to the original topic, but self defense related, the following is a true story and shows that anything can happen in a "self defense situation"

When I was in college (yes, dinosaurs ruled the earth, etc) a guy on my floor went to a punk concert downtown. During the concert, the lead singer starte smashing coconuts and throwing the pieces into the audience. They guy I know kept a few pieces in his pocket, he was a big fan.....

Drunk, and/or stoned, he wonders home up Bowery that night only to get mugged. The mugger asks him to empty his pockets at knife point. The guy does, and out come pieces of coconut... the muggers goes "why the heck do you have coconut in your pocket?" and gets so distracted the guy from the dorm just walked away....

Not exactly a self defense tactic you can teach in your standard class, but that night it worked just fine :p

[Oso]

but prevention is related to strategy and tactics.

but, if and when those fail, as in the rapist who stalks you to a strategically optimum (for him) location and your ability to avoid and evade drops to zero...then you are talking physical application of something to prevent the situation from ending up w/ you maimed or dead.

self defense will most often be luck, but luck comes quicker to those who prepare (or however that old saw goes)

[lkfmdc]

I still have that video tape, but my copy is very grainy :(

[Mortal1]

I don't think those would work.

The bronco busting was done on a cooperative opponent. It looked easy to roll out of. My opinion isn't worth much on ground stuff. I'm sure the grapplers will chime in on this.

[TenTigers]

I'm surprised KF didn't mention this, as Sayoc Kali has been added to the Dog Bros. repitoire,- two on one controlling the knife hand, does not take into account that some of us carry three knives..or more. Knife grappling is also taught, using the concept of the power assist-your opponent's body weight and the ground for support. If you can't run-fly!

[SwaiingDragon]

I haven't read the whole thread, but just going to answer MAX's question, so forgive me if this has been mentioned already--

evolved arts that are wrestling based usually have joint locks:
Hapkido,Judo, Sambo, Greco - it is easier to control the opponent...whether you break the bone or not depends on your control.

Shuai Jiao ground techniques are primarily for apprehension purposes only. It is not ideal to go to the ground.

Regards,

[yenhoi]

Being able to deploy your own knife and know how to use it is good to.

Also knowing where to cut/stab and where to not get cut/stabbed, and where to get cut/stabbed (because you will get cut and stabbed probably.)

A very basic knife drill would go from someone feeding you with the knife in only one hand, to switching hands, then adding basic strikes and grabs... etc. (A Kali type drill, anyways.) Then you would spar with rubber knives, and then steel knives in a similar progression.

:eek:

[SimonM]

my firends i am searching for a chinese art's contain lock and break bones and much more like in the japanese Aikdo and i am searching chinese gorund fighting like in the japanese jiujitsu and wrestling like in the japanese judo........


Look for Gongfu from the North-East. The traditional stuff from around there does have a ground game. Same with Mongolian stuff i assume since Sifu once told me that it was the Mongolian influence that led to the inclusion of a ground game in his style.

I'm hoping to get a chance to observe some Mongolian martial arts. Nei Mongu is not far from here.

Hei Long Gong Fu was the name of the system I trained in. It's named after the province. However it's a relatively small style. I've come across one instructor and he lives in Canada.

[SimonM]

\does not take into account that some of us carry three knives..or more.


And some of us have two knife hands. Sometimes it's good being a southpaw. Pretty much every weapon I was ever taught I got taught in my right hand. I then would studiously train the left to do the same things on my own time. When doing weapons practice people can tell I'm getting serious when I switch from the right to the left. This can be disconcerting to some people who don't expect a knife / sword shift. ;)

[SimonM]

2 pictures and 3 clips to share. Just don't tell me these kind of moves won't work in MMA ring.

http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/3015/changpic12rb.th.jpg (http://img226.imageshack.us/my.php?image=changpic12rb.jpg)


I've been knee dropped before it's annoying but it's not the most painful thing in the world and the person doing it will eventually end up being single-legged if their opponent is any good.

I say this from experience.

[SimonM]

Rotflmfao :D :D :D :D :D