Buying swords...................

[humble-one]

Ive been looking for a nice old sword for some time now but i know there are a lot of modern swords rusted up and made to look like old chinese swords. Does any one have any good pointers for spotting the genuine pieces from the fake? There are lots of swords on ebay for sale by chinese sellers that look good to me.

All help very much apreciated.

[ChinoXL]

yeah check out the seller paartist86 http://cgi.ebay.com/TWIN-BLADES-CHINESE-DA-DAO-TAI-CHI-TRAINING-BROAD-SWORD_W0QQitemZ6593322504QQcategoryZ43325QQrdZ1QQc mdZViewItem

[YMC]

If you are looking to buy an antique, might I suggest that you take a look at some forums like Swordforum International (there is a Chinese swordsmanship section on there)? You can get some pointers on how to find antiques or vintage blades; just use the search function. I have some stuff that I bought and restored posted. From personal experience expect to pay 100-200 dollars for a turn of the century dao or duan jian (short straightsword) in bad to good condition. If you look real hard and get lucky, you maybe able to get a chang jian once in a blue moon. Almost all of the blades you see on e-bay touted as antique are fake though; even the ones that may look good to the beginner.

[GeneChing]

I did an article Real Steel or Tin Foil? How to Buy Quality Chinese Blades and Collecting Modern-made Swords back in our Nov 99 issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=103) to address antique buying. I used to help finance my trips to China by buying antique swords and bringing them back to sell in America. It was a lot easier a few years ago because internet sales weren't as pervasive. It was pretty hard to get Chinese antiques before then. Now that the market has opened, there has been a flood of 'antiques' most of them modern made and aged to look like antiques. I addressed some of that in my article, but it wasn't as overwhelming in '99 as it is now. You got to be a lot more careful now. That being said, if you can get a decent sword for $100-200, even if it's a fake antique, it could still be a decent buy, especially when you figure that modern made swords are only a little less then that. I could easily see buying fake antiques now and stripping them for their fittings/blades, just to get a nice practice sword.

[humble-one]

Thanks for the replies guys. Thanks Gene il have to get myself a back issue of that one I think il wait till ive seen some more issues I want as the postage to the UK is £27 but il deffinatly give it a look. Sorry to go on about this guys but are there any signs or pointers to spot the real swords? Or give away signs to spot fakes?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Try this site. There are antiques AND antique reproductions.

Good Luck!

www.antiqueasianweapons.com

[GeneChing]

If you need more to fill your cart and make that shipping fee worth it, you should throw our 2005 Sword Special (http://www.martialartsmart.net/kf2001226.html) in there. I can probably think of more issues that you'll want - just ask ;)

As for a sure fire way to tell an antique from a replica, it's a preponderance of evidence. First, you need to know what's out there. This works in two ways. I can tell a lot of the replicas just because I'm familiar with the makers and their various designs. This takes constant research since there are new designs being made all the time. At the same time, I know some of the makes of the original makers. For example, I have one piece that's identical to a piece in the Smithsonian collection. Of course, the Smithsonian collection is well catalogued, so all I have to do is verify that my piece is indeed the same and not a knock off. The other thing that is very telling is to look at the oxidation pattern. Again, you need to be familiar with real antiques do know how they decay over time. When a replica is quick-aged, it leaves telltale traces. Often this is a chemical process (although in China, I think they just bury it in the manure patch for a few months). It will look aged to an untrained eye, but there's no substitute for time. A trained eye can tell. So there's no surefire way, no recipe that I can give you. You got to do your own research.

I saw an episode of Antiques Roadshow where this guy brought in a Civil War sword that he thought was valuable because he read the makers mark and it correlated for something else he read. He bought it off the net for $100. The expert said it was an obvious fake, made in India, worth about $60. I mention this because I've often heard people say that their sword is a genuine Longquan (http://www.martialartsmart.net/Dragon_Well_Forge.html) sword because it had the seven stars mark, but I've sat right next to makers at Shaolin as they made that mark.

[YMC]

Here are some links to help you get started researching. Just as a very general and simple overview; chinese straight swords (jian) are typically made in what is know as san mai construction, while dao are typically made with qiangang construction. In san mai (three plate) a hard high carbon core is sandwiched between two cheeks of softer lower carbon steel. Very often the cheeks are made with patternwelded steel. The edges are composed of exposed core. In qiangang (insert edge), the body of the dao is made of the softer steel while a higher carbon edge is inserted into the blade. The reason why I mention all of this is because in more recent antiques, you can see different patterns of oxidation following the laminations of the patternwelds because all these different steels rust at different rates. In addition, because the edges are actually made from a different piece of steel vs. the body, there are usually welding lines between the edge and the body. Also, the edge typically oxidizes at a different rate. There are lots of modern pattern welded fakes out there, even with edgeplates ground in to attempt to fake san mai or qiangand construction; these look very different from the real thing. I'm not an expert, just an interested hobbiest by the way, so this is probably all I can offer.


Aside from Lama Pai Sifu's own website, which has some tempting affordable pieces try looking at the pictures at

www.sevenstarstrading.com

also try looking at the past galleries at

www.oriental-arms.com

www.chinesearms.com
This last one usually has completely restored blades and may be less useful for those who want to try their hand at getting old stuff from E-bay

For a very nice and unusally shaped niuweidao (ox-tail saber; broadsword) with some before and after pictures.
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59673