New Gor-Sau Clips from NG Chun-hong Wing Chun Association

[Alan Lau]

Kung Hei Faat Choi and Happy New Year!!

Just a quick message to let you know that my Sifu's (NG Chun-hong) has posted new gor sau clips of his students in Hong Kong onto his website at http://www.wingchun.hk.com .

Here is an introductory clip: http://www.wingchun.hk.com/Temp/Intro.wmv

Any comments would be most welcomed. Wishing you all the best for the Year of the Dog,


Regards,
Alan Lau

[ghostofwingchun]

Kung Hei Faat Choi and Happy New Year!!

Just a quick message to let you know that my Sifu's (NG Chun-hong) has posted new gor sau clips of his students in Hong Kong onto his website at http://www.wingchun.hk.com .

Here is an introductory clip: http://www.wingchun.hk.com/Temp/Intro.wmv

Any comments would be most welcomed. Wishing you all the best for the Year of the Dog,


Regards,
Alan Lau

Mr Lau gung hei faat choi and thank you for sharing your video clips! I found them very interesting . . . I will say since you ask for comments . . . is that such training I have found not to be very useful if goal is to develop wc fighting skill . . . this is because much of what is working only works because it is meeting wc responses . . . and these will not be responses of most any one . . . but it looks like people on clip are having much fun.

Thanks,

Ghost

[splinter]

Can someone tell me what the translation of Gor Sau is?

I haven't reached a level where I'm incorporating that much kicking, but asides form that, his doesn't look a whole lot different from what I would consider to be chi sau.

[Alan Lau]

Thanks Ghost for your comments. Yes, the encounters shown in the sparring clips were between two Wing Chun exponents. As we only train 'pure' Wing Chun, we only know the Wing Chun 'way'. Although we training (almost) exclusively against Wing Chun attacks, we would sometimes have others who have experience in other styles of martial arts attack in another way other than Wing Chun. Perhaps we would include these sparring clips in future series of clips. Like what Chisauking said in the 'Toe to testicle range' post, we concentrate exclusively in perfecting the fighting art of Wing Chun.

Splinter, Gor-sau is a generic term in Chinese for sparring or exchanges of hands/techniques. We train gor-sau from breaks in chi-sau or outside the chi-sau range. If what you saw in our gor-sau resembles chi-sau, then that’s because we’ve kept the Wing Chun ‘flavour’ even outside the chi-sau sphere.


Alan Lau

[splinter]

Mr Lau,

Thank you for the explanation...
However, when I said it looked like chi sau, I was referring more to the level of intensity.

From what I've been taught, chi sau tends to start with a number of fixed drills, but eventualy, we move on to try to apply the techniques more freely, but starting from the standard rolling position, and it ends up looking more or less like what your video clips are showing, but I've never been told to call it anything other chi sau.

I suspect it's just a matter of terminology so thank you for the clarification.

[Mr Punch]

We train gor-sau from breaks in chi-sau or outside the chi-sau range.Hi Alan, don't know if you remember me, I came over to Sifu Ng's gym in Mar '02, watched a class and had a chat to him, you and some gentleman who speaks Japanese... beleive it or not, I still haven't found the opportuniy to train with Sifu Ng and I would still like to... busy life!:(

Anyway, just a quick question.

Your definitiong of gor sau is very much what I learnt it to be too. So, in my wing chun, gor sau is solely for training the initial stage before and at first contact to get into chi sau range (by which time of course, it may already be over!): or the odd occasion that there is a break in chi sau and it isn't prudent to go straight back into chi sau range (like when a boxer pushes you away from clinch, or a judoka wants you in close to drop you on your head). So gor sau is for controlling range, especially for practising establishing chi sau range.

So, here's the question! ;) On some of your clips (some nice ones there btw, good work and thanks for posting them - very brave on this forum :D ) you seem to be backing off, having a bit of a rest etc instead of going back to a more aggressive chi sau range. Is this because of a difference in level, so the more experienced is trying to show the less experienced that he still has control at greater range? And if so, doesn't prolonged training in gor sau encourage bad habits, ie basically slacking off and not concentrating on 'following what goes'?

[Alan Lau]

Hello Mat,

Of course I remember you. It isn't everyday that we get two groups of guests from Japan with one being English and speaks fluent Japanese. I hope things have been good with you.

In Chinese, Gor-sau is equivalent to sparring. So with us, gor sau is simply a free flow of techniques outside the realm of chi-sau and other drills.

I back off sometimes was because I was weary of my Sihing lightening counters. If my Sihing decides to go for the kill, he is virtually unstoppable. The reason I got to him sometimes was because he chose to let me through (sometime I got in by virtue of better techniques/reactions ;) ). Hence, if he lowers the intensity, I would too. (A sign of respect, as you will.) On another day, the intensity may be higher or lower. For higher intensities, there is more likelihood of accidents. I agree with you that slacking off would encourage bad habits but an advantage is the opportunity to practice certain technique that'd otherwise not possible because the encounter would end too soon. Besides, it is not often that we have it that easy – Sifu would have us going in for the kill where possible (there are several old clips that show this and I think you saw this when you visited us). Other than ‘follow what goes’, I think you can spot the ‘retains what comes’ and much, much more kuen kuits.


some nice ones there btw, good work and thanks for posting them - very brave on this forum
I have been fortunate thus far :D . Thanks.

Alan

[Mr Punch]

Cheers Alan. That's pretty much the way I was taught too.

[YungChun]

Thanks for sharing Mr. Lau and gung hei faat choi!


Very cool clips and clearly this kind of drilling is an important part of the system and develops some key WCK attributes..

If I may ask; I'm wondering what you meant by some of your comments:



As we only train 'pure' Wing Chun, we only know the Wing Chun 'way'.


Just wondering; Do you mean you train only the classical drills and the classical progression?



we concentrate exclusively in perfecting the fighting art of Wing Chun.


Again curious; What does this 'perfection' mean in this context?

Is this something, you feel, that can be measured solely by looking inwardly through the art and classical training of WCK or is this something that must be measured by looking outwardly and ensuring adaptation with the real and changing world of martial skill and practice outside of our classical WCK training?

Thanks,

[Alan Lau]

Greetings YungChun,

You have asked two very interesting questions. My answers are as follow:

Reply 1. Since Sifu only learnt Wing Chun, he can only teach Wing Chun. The Wing Chun he teaches is a combination of the knowledge from his three Sifus and from his own inspiration. Hence, my meaning of 'pure' is in the sense that Sifu only teach Wing Chun that has been passed down from his Sifus, furthered by his own ingenuity, with no adaptation from other martial arts. We, in turn, are nurtured to express our fighting skills using Wing Chun techniques driven by Wing Chun's theories and concepts.

Reply 2. The art of Wing Chun Kuen passed down by Sifu contains techniques, theories and concepts. The art is lost if any of these elements are missing. Techniques, in so far as Yip Man lineage, are found in the three hand forms, wooden dummy form and the pole and baat jarm do forms. Theories and concepts are contained in the kuen kuit, or fighting maxims, created by our Wing Chun forefathers. Kuen kuit are not restricted to only "Receive what comes...." but hundreds more. They are the 'codes' that tell use when and how to apply the techniques in order to make them work (to their maximum effectiveness). In other words, they teach us both strategy and application. Are the kuen kuit exhaustive? No, because Sifu doesn't know them all and because there is no limit to one's expression of an art form. To be an effective fighting art, Wing Chun must improve and keep up with time. Improvement can only be done by first mastering the art. For Sifu, he does not see a need to improve Wing Chun. The theories and concepts have enabled his techniques to be alive with infinite combinations and adaptability to any situation, save, of course, a shooting bullet or the like. It has served him very, very well indeed during his many life and death encounters in his 30 years of working in the HK Police Force as a Detective. To answer your question, perfection is measured both in the classical training and handling of the modern changing face of martial arts. For me, I'm still struggling with mastering the classical part. I am still struggling to be as good as my Sifu.

Hope I've answered your questions.

[chisauking]

Welcome to the wing chun forum of despair!

Good post, Alan.....but unless Ng sifu has won the K1 or NHB, forget it, this bunch won't believe a word you say. LOL

Regarding comments on your clips, let me relay a conversation with sifu Ng..

We was sitting down in the pub pretty bored, so I brought up the subject of Lam Man Hog's clips on the net, and then your clips. His eyes lit up, and he was obviously happy to talk about the subject. He was speaking highly of you, and he made a point of stating that all your clips were un-rehearsed and spontaneous, and that it showed a wide variety of wing chun techniques, but more than that, it showed the correct usage for each attack and defence.

You know what I said to him? I said, no matter how good your chisau, most people wouldn't know what to look for anyway (myself included)
I said if you want to impress an audiance, you have to mis-match the opponent's so that one is far better than the other. This way, the better guy would have his engine running on full, with all the clylinders fireing. He would be demonstrating all his techniques with ease on his partner, blasting him left right and centre (see boztepee's clips)

I stated that if you have two opponents of high abilities and skill, the obvious would happend: not very much!. Both opponents would be able to shut each other's engine down before it could even start, and not much action, if any, would take place.

So you see, by the response, or lack of, once again I have proved my self right! LOL

Anyway, I enjoyed the clips very much, so keep up the good work. Waiting for serious 7

the trouble maker: michael yan choi

[hen]

Hi Alan,

Nice clips!!!

Have you chi-sau/gor sau with other fellow WC people (from other schools) in HK??? Before settling down with Master Ng, did you seek out many other HK schools??

I just curious as to how one would select their school/master, especially in HK. There must be many good masters in HK.

Hen

[ghostofwingchun]

I do not understand why reference to pure wc are made . . . is this suggestion that others wc is less pure . . . because if every one has pure wc then it is no big deal . . . and I am thinking this is idea of purity is not some thing useful to martial artists . . . it suggests that there is external objective right way . . . the pure way . . . and nature of activity itself makes this impossible . . . and it does not say anything about ability . . . I know some people that know only pure golf but this does not make them good golfers . . . lol. And I am thinking that references to perfection . . . particularly in fighting art or sport . . . is meaningless . . . there is no such thing . . . there are levels of ability . . . some very rare individuals reach ability level that is astounding . . . but I am thinking no one in wc has demonstrated this ability yet. I am thinking that references to purity and perfection and such may indicate to others a lack of humility . . . even if this is not intention . . . so we should be careful thinking this way . . . any way this is my opinion.

Thanks,

Ghost

[Alan Lau]

Hello there Michael. Sifu is very appreciative of your hospitality during his visit to the UK. And yes, the name trouble maker is very fitting for your antics here. Keep up the good work.

Cheers Hen. Yes, I've played chi-sau and gor-sau with many people in HK and elsewhere, and witnessed many well known Sifus in action. With all due respect, I would have (and still would) joined other Sifus if I had considered them better. Luckily, Sifu Ng was the first Sifu I encountered. Call it fate, call it luck – I don't know. I think finding a Sifu in HK is pretty much similar to other places in the world. There is a mixture of good and bad Sifus. If you know what you're looking for, then it's just a matter of finding that right Sifu. If not, then you're left to fate. I found these people have a notion that all Wing Chun are the same and judge on stuff like uniform, certificates, decoration, tuition fees, etc.

Ghost, as I've said, my meaning of 'pure' was in the sense that Sifu only teach Wing Chun that has been passed down from his Sifus, furthered by his own ingenuity, with no adaptation from other martial arts. Pureness was in no way a reference to ability or implied other 'Wing Chun' is less pure. Though I think I understood what you meant, I have to say that I disagree. Thank you for expressing your thoughts, nonetheless.:)

[hen]

Hi Alan,

Thanks for you comments.

I noticed from the clips that the movements are soft and light (especially from Kwan). I personally beleive being light and soft is important.

Would you say your WC (chi sau) is soft compared to other HK schools or are there other masters you encountered that are far more softer.

Hen

[El Tejon]

Outstanding. Thanks so much for posting those. All the members of my club have watched them and they have inspired us.

Your concentration in staying cool and relaxed is something to emulate. Thank you again.

Kirk, Tippecanoe Wing Chun Association.:)

[El Tejon]

Hey, just checked your lineage. We are "cousins" (at least Wing Chun cousins).:D

My sigung is Siu Luk Men.:)

[Knifefighter]

Since Sifu only learnt Wing Chun, he can only teach Wing Chun. The Wing Chun he teaches is a combination of the knowledge from his three Sifus and from his own inspiration.

This is a perfect example of why cross-training can be so helpful. Those clips showed that if you took what was being done there, you could make up for the weaknesses by combining it with with clinch techniques. Put those two things together and you could have something pretty good.

[Knifefighter]

To be an effective fighting art, Wing Chun must improve and keep up with time.

For Sifu, he does not see a need to improve Wing Chun.

Isn't that kind of a contradiction?

What if there was a very simple way to shut down the guy who has gotten in off-angle and has the opponent's arms "trapped" and/or is throwing punches/elbows? Wouldn't it make sense to make an improvement there?

[Liddel]

Knifefighter ill hazard a guess at what is meant because i find that i am in a similar situation and what i see of the Gor Sao clips is very similar to our training but with a little more intensity...

"To be an effective fighting art, Wing Chun must improve and keep up with time"

Meaning we should -
1) improve our VT skills and ability in fighting
2) be aware of other styles and how to deal with them in our own 'VT' way.


"For Sifu, he does not see a need to improve Wing Chun. "

As in adding aspects of other arts for improvement.

Knifefighter i like what u said -

"This is a perfect example of why cross-training can be so helpful. Those clips showed that if you took what was being done there, you could make up for the weaknesses by combining it with with clinch techniques. Put those two things together and you could have something pretty good."

However i believe that you can and should adapt your VT to deal with a clinch or anything else foreign to our art ( but not foreign to fighting).... only then when you have your own 'VT' way to deal with it can or should you entertain other styles "Way".

This is making you less of a clone and making VT more your own IMHO.

[Knifefighter]

be aware of other styles and how to deal with them in our own 'VT' way.
Why stay within a single style when that style clearly has no answer for a particular situation?
The one guy obviously had no answer for the other person's attack, once he was offline, trapping, and hitting. Why not use another style's method to deal with the VT attack? Wouldn't it make sense to use another system's efficient method to shut down that kind of attack?
That would surely make the whole exercise that much more realistic.

[Liddel]

I see your point Knifefighter -
However i find your comments to vaugue.

You say -
" Why stay within a single style when that style clearly has no answer for a particular situation? "

Thats a POV man.
Clearly in a style that has so many differences your comment cannot and in my situation DOES not apply to any and all.

In this situation - I totally agree with you. But others may have answers for the situation and have used them with great results. Some may not ?

"The one guy obviously had no answer for the other person's attack, once he was offline, trapping, and hitting."

Your right - that ONE GUY had no answer. But that doesnt mean he couldnt later find one from VT that he didnt realise before in the LEARNING process and use it in the next encounter.

I didnt see anywhere that mentioned he was a master or knew all that can be used in VT.

If you cant find an answer it doesnt mean its not there ? Look harder or Yes try another styles approach.

[Knifefighter]

Your right - that ONE GUY had no answer. But that doesnt mean he couldnt later find one from VT that he didnt realise before in the LEARNING process and use it in the next encounter.

I didnt see anywhere that mentioned he was a master or knew all that can be used in VT.ch.

Then why wasn't the instructor teaching him how to shut down that attack? The fact that it kept happening over and over again with pretty much the same off-angle says that it isn't in the system or, at least that the instructor has not figured it out yet.

Why so adamant about "staying within the system" when othes systems have already figured it out for beginning level students?

[Vajramusti]

Alan- thanks for sharing the gor sao clip. Greetings to your sifu.
Sorry to hear about the passing of Lok Yiu. The list of people with substantial contact with Ip man is sadly getting considerably short. Best wishes,

joy chaudhuri

[Liddel]

Knifefighter asks
"Then why wasn't the instructor teaching him how to shut down that attack?"

That is a question for Alan or his Sifu... Alan ???

Through my experience ill entertain the possibility that the instructor wants the stundents to find the answer for themselves or perhaps he did instruct them after the vid ?

My point was not that he shouldnt use your suggestion, but merely that its not the only choice of action.

Then you wrote -
"Why so adamant about "staying within the system" when other systems have already figured it out for beginning level students?"

Because i believe it to be within the system as i have found through my experience, if i hadnt then i would seek outside influence. Thats all :D

[Alan Lau]

Hen, we aim for energies that are neither soft nor hard, and which are harmonious to the one received from our opponent, relative positions of our hands and bodies, timing, etc. We call this the 'sticky' energy.

El Tejon & Vajramusti, thank you. :)

Knifefighter, the clips shows gor-sau training between two Wing Chun guys who happen to be si-hing-dai. You are reading far too much into these clips. This was the reason why Sifu made the following notes to accompany the gor-sau clips.

"Our website has recently released a selection of motion clips of our class during gor-sau practice. The aim being the heightening of interest in Wing Chun Kung Fu and make known to visitors the actual occurrences in our class. We have not purposely fabricated any scenes or techniques to achieve any sort of goals whatsoever.

It should be realised that during the gor-sau practice, both the students may possess different skill levels and intentions. While engaging in such practice/training, the pace can be very quick and the students have to endeavour to practice both attacking and defensive techniques, and the inter-changeable nature of the two. Occasionally, students would practice techniques of controlling and neutralising incoming forces. Most important, however, is the need for concentration during the practice so as to prevent inflicting injury to the partner. Nevertheless, due to the high pace involved, the occurrence of errors, large and small, in the application of techniques are inevitable.

Such mistakes and errors during training can seldom be avoided and it is hoped that viewers would look upon these with understanding. Further, it is hoped that viewers would not miscomprehend the nature of the clips since they are not clips of actual sparring competitions and certainly not performed for the purpose of demonstration.

The understanding of the principal “Receive what comes, escort what goes, thrust forward when the arms are disengaged” should include the method of attacking and defending. Thus, the practicing of this principal should include, at the same time, attacking and defending. If the student only concentrates on the attacking aspect, and overlook the defensive, then this is an incomplete way of training. The method of training at our Association is that of the traditional way, which has been passed down in its purest form. People with an adequate understanding of Wing Chun would, I believe, understand that the gor-sau clips are merely those showing a single aspect of our training and where the situation warrants, we would select the ever more simpler and direct alternatives.

After the release of the clips, we have received many emails from fellow Wing Chun practitioners around the World. We are thus very grateful for the support that has been received. The aim of establishing our website is to attempt to link up and liaise with Wing Chun enthusiasts around the World and to increase the learning boundaries and interest of our art. Should any material on the website inadvertently causes ill feeling or concern, we would sincerely apologies. Thank you!"

(Please see the original Chinese version here (http://www.wingchun.hk.com/Sifus%20Footnote.htm).)

As Liddel has so rightly pointed out (thanks, Liddel :) ) , "To be an effective fighting art, Wing Chun must improve and keep up with time" refers to one's constant stride for greater understanding and expressiveness of the Wing Chun Fighting System. Others may feel that their Wing Chun has its limitation or they have reached a dead-end where their skills can no longer provide the improvement they seek, and search for an alternative elsewhere. Speaking for myself and most of my Si-hing-dei, we are certain all the solutions are within the Wing Chun system offered by Sifu and we are thus improving ourselves so we can find the solution whenever a question arise. This should also clear up your question of contradiction.

Lastly, I wish to point out that I still have a long way to go, as you can see in the clips. The limitation of my performance is a reflection of my ability and not Sifu’s. The competency of Sifu's students is a reflection of his Wing Chun skill.

[YungChun]

Thanks for your responses above Alan.

=================

Knife:

If I understand your question:

When playing these kinds of drills it is perfectly normal for one player to take control over another or make him loose position, etc. This does not mean that the system or even the player does not have an "answer" for dealing with this kind of attack or the technique used to gain the upper hand; Rather it means that one player managed to gain a positional and/or timing advantage on the other and/or the other player made an error that was exploited and used to apply whatever moves, attacks, finishes/submission. The ability of one person to apply an "answer" in this kind of drilling generally improves as one gain more experience and general skill in the activity.

Just as in BJJ; Just because one fighter is submitted by another it does not mean that 'BJJ' does not have an "answer" to counter the attack, or even that the fighter that was submitted didn't have this 'answer' in his "box". Rather, it means, as with any dynamic "answer" to a dynamic "problem"; The ability to apply the answer is dependant on the person's overall skill, abilities, and even some luck. In the end it is the very purpose of such training to improve the ability to apply the correct "answers" in a timely and efficient manner.

[Ultimatewingchun]

This is all well and good...(and props to this school for training like this and posting the clips)...but the fact remains that we're just watching wing chun vs. wing chun without any serious attempt to actually hit or kick with power to vulnerable targets (understandable...no protective gear)...

so you can't read very much into whether or not these clips show moves that would actually work against other stylists - including grapplers and MMA people.

And you can't read very much into the remarks on the webpage in terms of trying to understand whether or not these guys (or their instructor) really could defend and attack successfully against the type of non-wing chun people I mentioned - just using their wing chun.

In this regard those clips are totally inconclusive.

[Mr Punch]

True Victor, but read the disclaimer... and don't forget, Alan didn't say he was trying to prove anything!:) You're watching Gor Sau clips and in this case, I don't really think you need to conclude anything other than that! :D

Correct me if I'm wrong but Sifu Ng was a police inspector in downtown Mong Gok for what was it Alan? 40 years? It just may be that he has had to use some of his skills against non-wing chunners...

[Alan Lau]

Just want to clarify on what Mat had said, this was something I had written on Sifu:

"Having worked as a detective in the Hong Kong Police Force in his entire career before retiring, Sifu has had the best of training available in Hong Kong to prepare him for the investigative work against organised crimes and serious triad offences. Many people nowadays talk about the need to test the techniques on the street – to find out what works and what doesn’t (the so-called take what is useful and discard what's not). Though he doesn’t like to divulge the occasions in which his Wing Chun skill had meant the success of a raid or the saving of his and his colleagues’ lives, Sifu’s colleagues in the Police Force frequently visit the gym and tell of these occasions. They would talk of bewilderment when, at the crunch time, Sifu would dart forward and subdue the suspect with majestic grace and efficiency. He preferred not to use his firearms unless absolutely necessary for his limbs were more deadly that any firearms, save, of course, in an emblazing gun battle. Back at the police station, the events would be the talking point for weeks to come. In the canteen, Sifu would be treated like a celebrity. His response? He would play it down by saying it's just a fluke and overly exaggerated. People talk about cage fights, etc., but how many people have fought desperate men who would not hesitate to kill or seriously injure so as to escape imprisonment? For these fights, there are no rules and no referees. These were Sifu's 'beimo'; a way of life during his 30 years as a Police detective in Hong Kong."

[stricker]

hey victor,

no pleasing you is there :D like you looked at that mma clip ernie posted and said theres no wing chun, yup theres no mma in this clip. hell maybe if there was a clip of a thai-boxing-champ-submission-wizard-chi-sao-master youd be like "yeah that was ok" :D

knifefighter,
i dont know what your on about dude this is a wing chun training trill/situation and so all the answers for it are in wing chun, in the forms, chi sao etc. just one guys better than the other thats all. its not an mma fight. on the other hand just from watching mma fights i agree the clinch is a very important phase of a fight (happens a lot in street fight too) that i think its an area everyone needs to spend a lot of time on, wing chun whoever, even someone who does a wierd combo like boxing + sub wrestling might not have a very good stand up clinch game. i just think your being unreasonable and trying to force your arguments onto a situation that just doesnt fit.

[Liddel]

I agree with Stricker.

I am a big advocate of using anything that will help a fighter in a situation regardless if it is your main/first style.

However i have a big problem with people not being good enough at the style they study and IMMEDIATLY seeking another styles input without endeavouring through trial and error to find the answer within thier chosen system.....

In this case Ving Tsun.

Knifefighter has a big point BUT -
1) To say VT doesnt have an answer, is WRONG imho.
2) Gor Sau is not the place to implement such actions imo. This is not its purpose.

Ultimatewingchun said
" the fact remains that we're just watching wing chun vs. wing chun without any serious attempt to actually hit or kick with power to vulnerable targets "

During Gor Sau (especially) with a younger/less skilled opponent the purpose is to catch the target but maintain the DRILL which is the stciking, to continue practicing skill and feeling....

I have many the opportunity to "hit or kick with power to vulnerable targets " during Gor Sau just as my opponent does. Kup and Pie Jarn are common actions i give in sparring but in Gor Sau my action would be to just hit the shoulder softly then withdraw and change so as to continue the DRILL.

I believe this is one of the most important steps to applying VT on a sparring platform.

You have to realise the purpose to give a FAIR opinion on it.
Its not a fight to the death, its practice !
:)