Original Shaolin Training Vs Modern Weight Training/Gym Training

[dunk]

Yo

this my my daily training plan at the mo:

20mins running/skipping
Tai Chi Legs + Arms [Master Wong's Tai Chi Combat DVD]
Sit-ups
Push-ups
Kung Fu hand Forms
Kung Fu Level Fist Techniques
Kung Fu Stances
All the Basic Shaolin Kung Fu Patterns

All the Kung Fu stuff is straight outa Wong Kiew Kit - The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu

I do this 6 days a week at the mo for about 2/3 hours after i get home from work.

Is this a good plan or should i introduce more modern techniques?

I can't afford to go to the gym and get weights hence why i do everything using my own body weight.

I do alot of shadow boxing in my back garden but do not use a bag or anything to train on.

I dont really want to get massive and not be able to move around as much as i can now.

Age:24
Height: 6 foot
Weight: 160 pounds
BF: 26.2 i think used an online calc!

Many Thanks

[Ford Prefect]

Well without any weights, obviously it would be hard to use modern equipment. You can use modern understanding of energy systems to get more out of your workouts though. Take a look at:

www.crossfit.com & www.trainforstrength.com

for ideas on how to structure your workouts differently to get better results in shorter time. These sites both have workouts based solely on bodyweight exercises (bwe), which you should find more than challenging.

[Wood Dragon]

Age:24
Height: 6 foot
Weight: 160 pounds
BF: 26.2 i think used an online calc!



26.2 BMI doesnt sound right for a Male who is 6'/160lbs. 260 lbs, maybe. 160 lbs is pretty much the low end of the "Ideal"-range for a 6 footer.

I'd recalculate.

BTW, do more running. If you can do 20 minutes (which should translate to no less than 2.5 miles. Test yourself on a track), try 30. 8:00/mile is a pretty decent time, 1/4 mile time should be no more than 2:00. Mix it up with sprints, though.

Samples:

Repeat 5 times
After every ¼ mile at
goal pace
- do 20 pushups
- do 40 crunches

or

Army Interval run
run 7:00
50 pushups
100 abs of choice
run 7:00
50 pushups
75 abs of choice
run 7:00
50 pushups
50 abs of choice

[_William_]

You can make a sandbag at little expense using a cheap duffel bag that you can purchase at an army surplus store or elsewhere, and filled with sand. Do cleans, swings, shouldering on alternate shoulders, and presses. This is a full body workout in itself. I recommend this if you are low on cash. You will not lose flexibility with this, but you will become faster, more explosive, and gain strength through much of your body.

You might do something like this:

Monday
Work up to 50 reps of sandbag cleans in 20 minutes before adding weight

Thursday
Work up to 50 reps of sandbag push presses in 20 minutes before adding weight

Heres an article on this type of training:
http://home.comcast.net/~joandbryce/it_all.htm

You can also do single leg squats, single arm lockoff holds, single arm pushups, handstands and handstand pushups...

Good luck, and have fun!

[Andy62]

This artickle has some good suggestions on how to increase resistance without weights.



http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/becker20.htm

[monkeyfoot]

a few things

-fill buckets with sand, gradually increasing over time - hold each bucket out arms length to your sides

- tree branches are awesome for chinups, they create a good callaced hand aswell

- 10 x 10 stakes in the floor, great for balance, endurence and stance work.

- different obstacles to run around, or even better, running full speed through a wooded area gives you great agility and quick feet

- different yoga exercises build strength

- home made sand bags or wall pads

- wrap a tree trunk with rough thick rope. I have heard that they make good kick posts.

- push against objects such as brick walls, it builds up your internal

- circuit training is wonderful, so sort that into your routine.

craig

[tansaujosh]

if u understand the real concepts of tai chi and want to perfect them i would choose not to build up power by strength exercises, i would train my chi to become explosive through hard chi gong. but as you want strength cheaply and u want to keep flexibility, try to use maximum power in each strike you make whilst shadow boxing but decrease the round times.

i think your work out is pretty decent at the mo, but u may want to put more effort in, my sifu says to train as though your life depends on it, they are wise words.

[wutymes]

they key factor that makes chinese strength training work for gong fu is the fact that you develop all muscles, not those specific ones that come from weights. (due to the wide range of *natural* movements)
Secondly, you develop fast, strong, light muscles. Not big and heavy.
Thirdly, comes qigong. In order to improve your qigong, you cannot have big muscles for they will tend to block your chi easier.

[Ford Prefect]

^ ^ ^

These posts never get old. Keep up the good work!

[dunk]

well according to my Gung Fu book after 3 months i should;

A: hold the horse stance for 5mins
B: walk 10miles without feeling tierd
c: do all the level fist forms seemlessly

[Chief Fox]

That Wong Kiew Kit book is a great book. The best chapters are the ones about defining goals for yourself.

So I would start there. What are your goals? If they are to a) hold a horse stance for 5 minutes. b) walk 10 miles without feeling tired and c) Do all level fist forms seemlessly. Then I would train for those specific things. ie. practice your horse stance daily. Start walking daily and also practice your fist forms daily.

But if you think about those goals and break them down, then what are they really about?

Horse stance develops strength, flexibility and endurance in your legs.

Being able to walk 10 miles without feeling tired is all about endurance.

Doing your forms seemlessly is about first learning the movements, then doing them with strength an power and finally being able to make them all flow with strength and power.

So how do you do all of this?

You've already gotten some great advice. That being, check out crossfit.com and trainforstrength.com and also make a sand bag.

Personally I like the crossfit workout. It takes less than an hour and many times less than 30 minutes. You will see great gains in your leg strength, flexibilty and endurance with this workout. You will also develop an extrememly strong core as well as power generation. And because the workout is relatively short, you will have plenty of time to do horse stance training and your forms work.

As far as getting big goes. OR putting on too much muscle. This is something you don't have to worry about. A lot of people think that as soon as they start resistance training that they will become big and in-flexible. Nothing could be further from the truth. In order to get big you have to consume A LOT of calories. If you maintain your current calorie intake while training, you will see some muscle gain but you will not get BIG.

Some people also mistake muscle soreness for a lack of flexibility. Just because you are sore doesn't mean that your aren't flexible. Just keep stretching.

[wutymes]

stretching also gives strength. Try practicing the splits (front/back) slowly, everyday for 15 minutes. Hold your palms out in opposite directions with your arms straight and try to hold it up. you can also try to hold something in them afterwards. This is sorta a wushu thing, but it is the splits after all. Can apply to anything. Dont' strain yourself :cool:

[rubthebuddha]

shut the hell up, ford. you're just jealous cause your muscles are heavier than mine.

lousy piece of crap. :mad:












:D

[Ford Prefect]

I know one muscle that probably is...

:eek:

[rubthebuddha]

two points for team ford. :D

[dougadam]

Eagle claw pushups are very good. Also hanging from a tree and touching your hands with your feet are great for your abs. :)

[Infrazael]

You said in your routine that you do alot of forms and sets. It appears that you need to do more drills, and also do more sparring/partner drills. You can create makeshift bags by wrapping heavy material or such around think trees or poles. I've seen Filipinos do this all the time in their Yaw-Yan training.

Peace

[dunk]

been busting my balls recently........


got a 5foot punchbag in the back yard now tho its bloody freezin at the mo.

i don't think the council would approve if i went kickin the shizzle out of the trees in the park accross the road....


got one of those balls on a springy stick punchbags too i strike and block for a while with my eyes closed sometimes

[zmaj]

well according to my Gung Fu book after 3 months i should;

A: hold the horse stance for 5mins
B: walk 10miles without feeling tierd
c: do all the level fist forms seemlessly

Hey i got the same book, THE ART OF SHAOLIN KUNG FU :)

Very interesting book

I find it repetative though, but maybe it was intended that way, to beat the basics into your head. I wouldnt mess with the chi kung/ tai chi stuff on my own though, I do it in class and its few motions over and over but there is so many little details that I just dont understand how I would do it without someone correcting me.

He had some other stuff in there for you to do, I know there was where you get two big jars and hold them at shoulder level and do it while holding a stance and and then every 2 weeks I think to add a cup of water to it and when its full to add cup of sand.

And also remember, when it comes to the stances, if its not hard its probably not right.

[dainos]

alot of endurance execise. the horse stance you can hold for however you want to but it takes a good amount of will to break the barrier. what i mean by this after you break the barrier (for me its like 7 minutes) you can sit in a horse stance as long as you keep breathing and focusing. if you want to get more out of your forms put more effort in them and form. i do have a question though.

what do you want to be your speicalty in fighting? my school is being in fighters and have a high tolarance for pain. my si gung is increbly good at this. you can hit him anywhere as hard as you want and all he does is look at you.
he relizes he got hurt the day after.

my friend ben was sparring with him and kicked him in the calf quite hard. 2 days later sigung showed us the bruise. IT WAS A 9 INCH CIRCLE. imagine fighting someone no matter how hard you hit them it didnt phase them?

[SevenStar]

they key factor that makes chinese strength training work for gong fu is the fact that you develop all muscles, not those specific ones that come from weights. (due to the wide range of *natural* movements)
Secondly, you develop fast, strong, light muscles. Not big and heavy.
Thirdly, comes qigong. In order to improve your qigong, you cannot have big muscles for they will tend to block your chi easier.


wtf??? No way...

[SevenStar]

been busting my balls recently........


got a 5foot punchbag in the back yard now tho its bloody freezin at the mo.

i don't think the council would approve if i went kickin the shizzle out of the trees in the park accross the road....


got one of those balls on a springy stick punchbags too i strike and block for a while with my eyes closed sometimes

springy bags on a stick? a reflex bag? Those are for improving your speed and accuracy. out of curiosity, why punch it with your eyes closed?

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I noticed in your original post that you don't have pull ups listed. Definitely add those.

[rubthebuddha]

didn't you know that, sevie? all those squats made your hyooge muscles slow and wussified.

[SevenStar]

dangit, I guess I'll have to stop squatting and train my horse stance for 90 minutes... :(

[rubthebuddha]

last time i trained my horse for 90 minutes, my quads were so light and fluffy, it was like i drank a case of red bull.

[wutymes]

wtf??? No way...
wtf??? Do you like to be a *******? Sorry if what I wrote was silly. Well maybe it was the way i said it, but you didn't have to act like that....Much of the research in kung fu is on the internal which is obviously a benefical way to developing strength and speed- I had a lot of benefits from it that I wish others to learn. I've trained in chigong by the hebei university teachers so I am not pulling this out of thin air. Call me a fool if you wish. I'll take a loss and admit that I shold have been more explicit and scientific. You are still rude as hell though.

[jimquackenbus]

6 feet, 160lb is BMI 23

[Royal Dragon]

I allways thought big muscles stored a lot of Chi due to thier size. That is why big huge guys hit like trucks loaded with scrap steel, and skinny little internal guys don't.

What "I" fear, are big, huge, internal guys!! They hit the hardest, and thier Qi makes you explode too! :D

[GeneChing]

When you get the chance, check out my article Building the Five Hearts Horse Stance: Grandmaster Tu’s Chamber of 99 Power in our May June 2006 issue of Kung Fu Tai Chi (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=650). It details a reconstruction of a classic Shaolin weight training device used to develop horse stance power (although personally, I think it's mostly about leg, back and neck strength). The contraption design was derived from the 72 Shaolin arts, probably best known to English readers by the translation 72 Consummate Arts Secrets of the Shaolin Temple (http://www.atomicathletic.com/store/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=BK072). I'd love to hear some opinions on it from a weight training perspective...

[SevenStar]

wtf??? Do you like to be a *******? Sorry if what I wrote was silly. Well maybe it was the way i said it, but you didn't have to act like that....Much of the research in kung fu is on the internal which is obviously a benefical way to developing strength and speed- I had a lot of benefits from it that I wish others to learn. I've trained in chigong by the hebei university teachers so I am not pulling this out of thin air. Call me a fool if you wish. I'll take a loss and admit that I shold have been more explicit and scientific. You are still rude as hell though.


1. learn to lighten up. this is the internet. And as we know, "arguing over the net is like competing in the special olympics. even if you win, you're still retarded."

2. kung fu has A LOT of external strengthening techniques from rock pole to pulley training, carrying buckets of water, etc.

However, to stay OT and since you aren't pulling it out of the air, please elaborate. why can't you devlop "fast, strong, light muscles" with weights? cite any reference that you wish.

Also, elaborate on this "they key factor that makes chinese strength training work for gong fu is the fact that you develop all muscles, not those specific ones that come from weights. (due to the wide range of *natural* movements)"

once again, cite any reference that you wish. Also, tell me why you think you only "develop specific muscles" with weights.

[SevenStar]

When you get the chance, check out my article Building the Five Hearts Horse Stance: Grandmaster Tu’s Chamber of 99 Power in our May June 2006 issue of Kung Fu Tai Chi (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=650). It details a reconstruction of a classic Shaolin weight training device used to develop horse stance power (although personally, I think it's mostly about leg, back and neck strength). The contraption design was derived from the 72 Shaolin arts, probably best known to English readers by the translation 72 Consummate Arts Secrets of the Shaolin Temple (http://www.atomicathletic.com/store/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=BK072). I'd love to hear some opinions on it from a weight training perspective...


has it been mailed out yet?

[GeneChing]

Indeed it has. But for some annoying and persistant reason, it seems to come late for you. We'd have to move up to the next level of bulk mailling to resolve it, and we'd have to have a larger print run to do that. Sorry about that. Tell your friends to subscribe. (http://www.martialartsmart.net/19341.html) That's about the only thing that can expedite your delivery at this point.

[ZhuiQuan]

I didn't read the posts at all... I admit. But I just have one thing to say about traditional Shaolin strength training vs. Weight training: Traditional Shaolin training can be done at no cost. You can make your own buckets out of wood or beach pails filled with sand, anything. And of course, you can use your own body (horse stance, holding your arms out) and your weapons (holding your staff out, etc.)

That's all. I don't have lots of money, so I'm siding with traditional Shaolin training.

[SevenStar]

When you get the chance, check out my article Building the Five Hearts Horse Stance: Grandmaster Tu’s Chamber of 99 Power in our May June 2006 issue of Kung Fu Tai Chi (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=650). It details a reconstruction of a classic Shaolin weight training device used to develop horse stance power (although personally, I think it's mostly about leg, back and neck strength). The contraption design was derived from the 72 Shaolin arts, probably best known to English readers by the translation 72 Consummate Arts Secrets of the Shaolin Temple (http://www.atomicathletic.com/store/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=BK072). I'd love to hear some opinions on it from a weight training perspective...


It seems sound. Basically, it looks like he's doing a variation of a squat. Of course, I'd do without the stopming prior to the lift in order to bring qi from the ground, but hey, to each his own. I guess in theory that's no different from planting your feet into the ground as you lift weight off the bar (bench press)

[Royal Dragon]

Also, elaborate on this "they key factor that makes chinese strength training work for gong fu is the fact that you develop all muscles, not those specific ones that come from weights. (due to the wide range of *natural* movements)"

Reply]
I think this refers to full body training, and multiple muscle group training as oppsed to isolateing muscles as seen in many modern body building routines.

The comment neglect the fact that many "Barbell" type exercises do infact recruite multiple muscle groups in tangent with one another. It's just not the over all theme, where as the traditional eastern strength training, it is.

On a side note, Old School "Strong man" methods are full body/multiple muscle group oriented as well, and they are considered western practices.

Also, modern gymnastics is a full body strength developing discipline. Infact it is said that pound for pound, gymnasts are the strongest, best conditioned athlets in the world.

A gymnast has denser, more compact muscles than a body builder, and a smaller gymnast can often lif a higher percentage of thier weight, than a body builder can, even though the body builder actually has bigger muscles. There is something about the poly metric, explosive nature of a gymnast's training that pacts a HUGE amount of strength into a small space.

I have seen body builders who "Thought" they were strong actually cringe when a smaller gymnast out performs them. It's allways funny to see the silly grins the gymnast has on such occasions, especially whe the gymnast is female, and the weight lifter is male.

This said, I had allways wondered what would happen if a gymnast were to cross train in some sort of weight lifting exercises like a body builder. Would they end up with the best of both worlds? or lose something in the attempt?

[Andy62]

I think more and more we are coming back to the Shaolin Training methods because in many respects they are superior to barbell training. Check out the following link with a quote by Arthur Saxon" The Iron Master" and arguably the strongest man that ever lived. A lot of the qualities mentioned in his definition of strength seem to be more attainable through Shaolin type training than through weight training.



http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Saxon/DPP/dpp01.htm#4

[SevenStar]

I think this refers to full body training, and multiple muscle group training as oppsed to isolateing muscles as seen in many modern body building routines.

The comment neglect the fact that many "Barbell" type exercises do infact recruite multiple muscle groups in tangent with one another. It's just not the over all theme, where as the traditional eastern strength training, it is.

yeah, I knew exactly what he meant. Once he responded, I was going to point out what you just mentioned. And actually, it IS the theme for most competitive athletes other than body builders.


A gymnast has denser, more compact muscles than a body builder, and a smaller gymnast can often lif a higher percentage of thier weight, than a body builder can, even though the body builder actually has bigger muscles. There is something about the poly metric, explosive nature of a gymnast's training that pacts a HUGE amount of strength into a small space.

it's called neuromuscular. the harder you can make your muscles contract, the higher the output you can get from them. plyos train your neuromuscular sytsem to contract very fast and very hard.

[SevenStar]

I think more and more we are coming back to the Shaolin Training methods because in many respects they are superior to barbell training. Check out the following link with a quote by Arthur Saxon" The Iron Master" and arguably the strongest man that ever lived. A lot of the qualities mentioned in his definition of strength seem to be more attainable through Shaolin type training than through weight training.



http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Saxon/DPP/dpp01.htm#4

I'll ask you the same question I asked dude: Please explain why you think so, and cite references.


in the link you posted, he is not referring to strength. He's referring to muscular endurance. He states that himself. He just feels that it is more important than strength. he is saying that someone with more endurance is better off. that is opinion only, and can be argued in the reverse. Look at mike tyson in his prime. Rarely did he fight more than 5 rounds without KOing the guy. He was pure strength. and it made him one of the greatest fighters ever. vanderlei silva is similar. endurance is not superior by any means. Ideally, you want both.

He did later state that ideally you want both. And, you can get both from weight training.