Bujutsu and Budo [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Finny

02-03-2006, 05:56 AM

Blackmantis,

Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan are all 'ninjutsu' styles of the same family (descended from Takamatsu Tosh!tsugu). However, there are many misconceptions held by the masses regarding these arts - they are NOT 'ninjutsu, and have no historical connection to ninjutsu. And they are NOT koryu (old school martial arts) - other than the Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu, which Takamatsu was known to have studied (extensively), none of the other styles he claimed to have passed to Hatsumi Masaaki can be verified as having aa history prior to Takamatsu. For a more thorough explanation of what I'm trying to get at, see: http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=done;action=display;num=1131134742; start=15

If you're heading down to London, I'd check out Mr. Lee Masters and his father, doing Tenjin Shinyo Ryu jujutsu. I'm also sure there would be some good Aikido in London, if you're interested in that. I don't know of any Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu dojo in London, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were. Be VERY wary of 'other' "Aikijutsu or Aikijujutsu" schools, they are almost all modern creations.

wiz cool c

02-03-2006, 06:29 AM

[QUOTE=blackmantis]Thank you very much for all your help that is very interesting.

What is the difference between Genbukan and Bujikan? I've also heard of "Jinenkan" or something like that.

Genbukan and Bujinkan are the same style with two diferent grand master. If you are really interested get a hold of two tapes one with Hatsumi and on one with Tanamora head of Genbukan and you can see the differents. Jinenkan allso has a diffrent Head Master but focuss on the other 6 ryus in the bujijkan minus the three ninja ryus.

Mr Punch

02-03-2006, 07:04 AM

Aikijutsu will get you sued if you ever have to use it, (also depends on the instructor) it will primarily teach you to toss someone on their head breaking their neck, or break an arm. This would be considered excessive force in all but life threatening circumstances. Judo is more easily transferred to the real world, than either Aikido or Aikijutusu. By that logic, aikido would get you sued too. The only difference between good aikido and aikijutsu is that you don't crank the finish on so hard in aikido... on the street the result would be the same. You don't rely on pain compliance, you grab it wrench it lock it break it. I also disagree with your assumption that judo is any 'safer' than aikido or -jutsu... if you throw somebody with most judo throws on to his head or back on a concrete street, against a kerb, against a wall, between two parked cars you're still gonna **** up his day just as much.

I didn't realise Aikijutsu was so extreme! What are everyone's views on Jujutsu?Aikijutsu is certainly no more hardcore than any other martial art. Koryu aikijutsu has a few more throws and locks (sometimes outlawed in mainstream aikido), and groundwork (there are pictures on Jason Delucia's site of Ueshiba, the founder of aikido, doing a guillotine, an armbar and a choke from a side mount whilst practising daito-ryu aikijujutsu).

Ironically, it also has better internal connectiveness exercises than most aikido (which supposedly concentrates on those things - some people call them ki development exercises, but they are nothing mystical: essentially ways of training connective muscles and their interactions with the ligaments and tendons). Some of these exercises are not even commonly practised in koryu nowadays for some reason: For example, Takeda and Kimura of daito-ryu used to swear by shiko, the sumo exercise where they lift their legs like a peeing dog... but precious few people practice that anymore, even over here. You'll be exceptionally lucky to find good aikijujutsu in London or anywhere in the UK, though I have heard of Finny's recommendation.

As for the difference between aikijutsu and jujutsu, there isn't much. Depending on which koryu scrolls you read one is an offshoot of the other. They certainly seem to have developed parallel to each other. Some old aikijutsu is called aikijujutsu. The main difference is the way they view kuzushi, the principle of unbalancing. Don't have time to go into it now, sorry!

blackmantis

02-03-2006, 09:02 AM

Thanks that's great!

In terms of techniques and training methods however, are there any differences between Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan?

I am particularly interested in the Aikido/Taijutsu-type throwing methods and joint manipulation- does Aikijutsu have these?

S

Scott R. Brown

02-03-2006, 09:24 AM

Hi Mat,

As usual you perceive according to your preconceived notions and not according to what was written. Your assessment of the differences and similarities between Aikido and Aikijutsu are in error. As a qualifier it does depend greatly upon the instructor and the style, something I mentioned and you apparently disregarded.

Aikido is basically intended to be used for the purpose of defending oneself resulting in as little harm to the assailant as possible. Because of this the techniques may be preformed in a more or less aggressive manner as necessity dictates. Certainly injuries may occur, but the method and intent of performing locks and throws are different from Aikijutsu. Aikijutsu was designed for battlefield use and historically is unconcerned with controlling, but was used to incapacitate or kill. O Sensei’s intent was to find a gentler manner of defeating an assailant. Something more applicable to modern needs. Aikido may be taken to a fatal level and Aikijutsu at its advanced levels may be used in a gentler manner, however the traditionally historic intent of each is different.

As an example Aikijutsu tends to throw an assailant at the defenders feet while Aikido tends to toss the assailant away from the defender. Being thrown at the foot of the defender increases the opportunity and likelihood of landing on ones head. High falls are much more prevalent in Aikijutsu than Aikido for this reason. As a qualifier it does depend upon the style and the school. Yoshikan Aikido, Gozo Shioda’s tradition for example is a harder style of Aikido than Hombu style and used by many Japanese Police Departments.

Your statements regarding Judo are spurious. Anything may be accidentally or unintentionally fatal. Pushing someone may cause them to fall and hit their head causing death. Your comments are therefore meaningless. Traditional Judo as it was originally practiced includes a large curriculum, including throws, grappling and joint locks. Someone who finds a good traditional instructor would acquire a broader knowledge of techniques increasing their potential effectiveness. These techniques are less lethal than Aikijutsu and of broader scope than Aikido!

Since this thread is for the purpose of helping blackmantis determine his next venture into the world of MA I am not interested in getting into another pi$$ing contest with you. So do not expect me to continue trying to clear the fog from your limited, preconceived notions.

Hi blackmantis,

Aikijutsu does have joint manipulations. They are effective and very painful. As I previously mentioned it always depends upon the style and the instructor. A good style with a poor instructor might be better than nothing, but there are inherent deficiencies that may require further searching of other MA to fill in the gaps. You may need to try different styles and schools to find what fits your goals and needs. There are differences between jujutsu and Aikijutsu, but yet again it does depend upon the style and the instructor. I have trained in Jujutsu, Aikijutsu, Aikido and a little Judo. (My father was a Judo player.) All styles have their limitations. Find something and try it. If you don’t prefer it then look for something else. You may find a style you like, but don’t like the instructor in which case find another school of the same style.

Finny

02-03-2006, 07:31 PM

Actually Scott, much of what has been written regarding Aikijujutsu here has been erroneous.

For starters, technically there is no koryu Aikijujutsu. The only 'real' lineage of Aikijujutsu which can be traced back to the turn of the century, is Daito Ryu. No other "Aikijujutsu" style has any real connection to Japanese history (aside from perhaps Don Angier's Yanagi Ryu, but that's another story).

Daito Ryu is NOT characteristic of battlefield grappling arts like Yagyu Shingan Ryu or Takenouchi Ryu. It is widely thought that Daito Ryu was largely constructed by Takeda Sokaku. To reiterate - "Aikijujutsu" is not an historical, battlefield art, it is a self defense art, created around the turn of the twentieth century.

Blackmantis, I myself would jump at the opportunity to learn Tenjin Shinyo Ryu and Kodokan Judo (as practised by Mssrs Masters). An INCREDIBLE art.

Stranger

02-03-2006, 08:12 PM

Jinenkan allso has a diffrent Head Master but focuss on the other 6 ryus in the bujijkan minus the three ninja ryus.

Manaka sells Togakure Ryu videos. Isn't that one of the ninjutsu ryu from Takamatsu? :confused:

Wood Dragon

02-03-2006, 09:06 PM

The X-kan (Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan) situation is.....complex.

Suffice to say that the G-kan and J-kan honchos were originally Senior Instructors (Shihan) under Hatsumi of the B-kan (who inherited the 9 systems from Takematsu).

For various reasons, and without undue acrimony, they split off to teach how they thought best.

8 of the 9 systems (ryu) cannot be traced back prior to the emergence of Takematsu. One of the 9 is, last I heard, considered (by outside experts) to be identical to a ryu of the same name from another system entirely, which CAN trace it's lineage back several centuries (and is thus a Koryu).

Hatsumi was invited to join the big Koryu Association (forget the actual name), and was required to show evidence of the antiquity of the 9 systems. Last I heard, it was still "undetermined". However, he was very upfront about it, and no one, among those who would know, has called him a faker.

Confused yet?

Having seen Hatsumi in the flesh: The man has the skills. Whether they come from his training in the 9 ryu-ha, or from his days as a Judo champion (he was a big name in Judo back in the 1960's), I couldnt tell you.

MY theory: The Bujinkan expanded way too fast (in the wake of the 80's ninja craze), and people who should never have been instructors were given certification. Hatsumi, being located in Japan, had no idea of the carnage taking place in the outside World. Result: lots of crap representatives of the Bujinkan.

wiz cool c

02-03-2006, 09:59 PM

Manaka sells Togakure Ryu videos. Isn't that one of the ninjutsu ryu from Takamatsu? :confused:

The only thing I know about the Jinkenkan is what I herd and that was that he dident teach the three ninja ryus in his Jinkenkan. He learned from Hatsumi so he knows them. If he sells tapes or teaches them now I have no idear.

Mr Punch

02-03-2006, 11:51 PM

Blackmantis, Scott's post on the differences between aikido and aikijutsu seems to be completely correct in my understanding, except the bit where he (mystifyingly) attacks me ad hominem.
As usual you perceive according to your preconceived notions and not according to what was written. Your assessment of the differences and similarities between Aikido and Aikijutsu are in error. As a qualifier it does depend greatly upon the instructor and the style, something I mentioned and you apparently disregarded. I've no idea where this attack came from. The fact that we have had our differences in the past should not suddenly precipitate this kind of paranoid knee-jerk reaction. In fact, I agree with your post. My assessment of the differences is pretty much the same as yours, so if mine is erroneous... well! I chose to stress the fact that whichever one you use in the street, if you know what you are doing and you are successful will probably lead to someone getting seriously hurt. I know of a couple of aikido encounters where the assailant has been left uninjured, but far more where somebody has incurred serious injury. YMMV. It's no reason for insulting me.

So, as for the 'as usual' and 'preconceived' I'd like to know where you think my 'pre'conceptions come from... The only conceptions I have of aikido and aikijutsu are 15 years of practising them in various forms, through aikikai-style, ki society, and including learning at the dojo of Tada Shihan (the direct student of Ueshiba who happens to be the head of several national aikido organisations) and daitoryu based internals (taught by a private student of Kimura) and sparring in many formats, not to mention lots of personal experience in the street, and the experience of training partners of mine. Plus reading Japanese and English articles in magazines like Hiden.

And furthermore, nowhere was I attacking your post or your character, I merely disagreed with your assessment of judo.

Aikido is basically intended to be used for the purpose of defending oneself resulting in as little harm to the assailant as possible. Because of this the techniques may be preformed in a more or less aggressive manner as necessity dictates.Which is pretty much the same as what I said about not cranking it on so hard. As is your point about where to throw your assailant... but the stress in my post is just that you usually don't have the luxury of choosing where to throw your assailant. If you want to believe there is a safe and desirable way of resolving any violent conflict without injuring one party, great! More credit to you. I would like to believe it, but IME it's often not the case. So I reiterate, on the street, aiki looks pretty much the same.

Here's a question for you, if you can answer it objectively without resorting to personal insults. Ueshiba was a martial genius and highly experienced in fighting and killing: if he hadn't had that expereince do you think he would have reached the level where he would have recommended defending yourself without hurting your assailant and the peace and love aspects?

Your statements regarding Judo are spurious. Anything may be accidentally or unintentionally fatal. Pushing someone may cause them to fall and hit their head causing death. Your comments are therefore meaningless. Traditional Judo as it was originally practiced includes a large curriculum, including throws, grappling and joint locks. Someone who finds a good traditional instructor would acquire a broader knowledge of techniques increasing their potential effectiveness. These techniques are less lethal than Aikijutsu and of broader scope than Aikido!Why are they meaningless? Sure, pushing someone over CAN cause death; so deliberately throwing someone on his head on a hard surface has a much higher chance of causing death and this has legal implications, no?

As for the effieciency and lethality of judo, please read Mark Tripp's history of how judo developed out of a desire to test obsolete jujutsu to make it MORE effective!

Since this thread is for the purpose of helping blackmantis determine his next venture into the world of MA I am not interested in getting into another pi$$ing contest with you. So don't ****ing start one then.

Mr Punch

02-04-2006, 05:59 AM

The only 'real' lineage of Aikijujutsu which can be traced back to the turn of the century, is Daito Ryu. ...It is widely thought that Daito Ryu was largely constructed by Takeda Sokaku. To reiterate - "Aikijujutsu" is not an historical, battlefield art, it is a self defense art, created around the turn of the twentieth century.Widely thought by whom?

Not challenging you in any way, just wondering how it is that you have such conviction on a subject that is still widely debated.

BTW, in answer to the original question Blackmantis, Finny seems to have the best suggestion, but also it depends on what you want to do most in your art. If you want to go sporty with a good chance for self defence on the way, judo is probably for you. I can't really comment much more than that as my judo experience is very very low.

If you want something gentler and supposedly more cultural but that runs a higher risk of you bumping into lots of wafty wannabe Japanese my-art-is-too-deadly you-don't-have-to-hurt-anyone bull****ters, go for aikido. There is a lot of bad aiki out there but if you find some good stuff (of which there is also a lot) you may not develop amazing fighting skills but it should be a valuable experience on many other levels. It's also a nice balance of some good unarmed principles and some good weapons work (if you find a school which uses weapons, which IMO are the most rewarding styles and will add to your depth of understanding of the unarmed work).

Scott R. Brown

02-04-2006, 07:42 AM

Hi Finny,

Yes, I am aware of the history of Daito-ryu. Its principles are based upon battlefield fighting techniques to be used when a warrior had lost his weapon. Thus its purpose was to incapacitate or kill the opponent. Takeda hardly softened the style by innovation or modification, while it was the stated intent of Ueshiba to do so.

I disagree that Daito-ryu is the only “real” form or Aiki-jutsu. Aiki is merely a word used to describe a method or set of principles applied. If a style utilizes the same method/principles it could rightly call itself Aiki if for no other reason than to use a familiar term that others recognize as having a specific meaning. It can also be used duplicitously to attract students without adhering to those methods/principles so I am not a being a Pollyanna here.

The history of Daito-ryu is not necessarily certain. Just because a historian asserts a fact does not make it fact. It is merely an assertion of belief or fact according to that researcher’s interpretation of the data they currently possess. (It is generally accepted that George Washington did not chop down a cherry tree yet it was believed to have actually occurred for many years!) The histories of many of these arts are/were secret and we may never know the entire truth of their development or history. I doubt the lineage from which Takeda gained his knowledge was unique in their technical knowledge. I would agree that many Aiki styles are most likely based upon either Aikido or Daito-ryu Aiki-jutsu. That does not make them ineffective or spurious arts.
____________________________________________

Hi blackmantis,

I apologize for the next section I am trying to not hijack your thread with this sort of activity. I will try to be brief and it is my hope this discussion with Mat does not continue here!
_____________________________________________

Hi Mat,

My assertion: “As usual you perceive according to your preconceived notions and not according to what was written” is not an ad hominem attack. It is a description of persistent behavior that misunderstands either intentionally or unintentionally the point the other person is making. It is an error of perception that misdirects the conversation away from the topic. This is a persistent and established pattern for you. I will demonstrate my point for you:

Ad Hominem Argument: “a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the person presenting the claim or argument”. Ad Hominem attacks are attacks that misdirect the argument to person’s personal attributes or character that is true, but more specifically attributes that have no bearing on the topic. However, when an individual has characteristics that do not allow them to perceive clearly it has direct bearing on the discussion and is therefore not an ad hominem attack, but an identification of characteristics that lead to misunderstanding. It is true I did not elaborate. This is due to the fact I am trying to not drag this thread off topic by demonstrating to you your errors of perception, (neither is it my responsibility to do so). I also find it a wearisome and a generally unproductive endeavor.

Since this has become an issue I will be specific “this” time:

My statements were:

I agree judo would be very good, but it always depends upon the school and the instructors as well.

Judo is more easily transferred to the real world, than either Aikido or Aikijutusu. Judo also has joint locking and grappling as well.

Your response was:

I also disagree with your assumption that judo is any 'safer' than aikido or -jutsu...

It should be very clear NO WHERE did I state or infer “judo is any ‘safer’….” you presumed it! You read into my statement what you wanted to see! This is a pattern of behavior you have repeatedly demonstrated in the past. Just because I have never drawn attention to it does not mean it has not occurred or that I am unaware it is occurring. Others have mentioned this to you however in somewhat indirect ways. I attribute this statement of yours to your preconceived notions based upon my past experience where you followed the same pattern of behavior.

My statements were:

Aikijutsu will get you sued if you ever have to use it, (also depends on the instructor) it will primarily teach you to toss someone on their head breaking their neck, or break an arm. This would be considered excessive force in all but life threatening circumstances.

(As an aside it would have been more precise to say “could get you sued” or “is more likely to get you sued!”)

Your response was:

By that logic, aikido would get you sued too.

This is by your logic not mine! You totally ignored the qualifier “also depends on the instructor”! I attribute this error to your preconceived notions as well. These notions cause you to read what you want to read and ignore what does not fit into your preconceive notions. Your pattern has been to add what is not there and ignore items that are there.

I think these minor points are adequate to demonstrate my comments are not ad hominem but address real errors of perception that cause incorrect conclusions to be drawn and comments made that do not address what was “actually” stated.

Now let’s please, let’s try to stay on topic. If you want to have a p!ssing contest start a new thread.

Mr Punch

02-04-2006, 09:03 AM

I apologize for the next section I am trying to not hijack your thread with this sort of activity. I will try to be brief and it is my hope this discussion with Mat does not continue here!
...blah blah blah...
Now let’s please, let’s try to stay on topic. If you want to have a p!ssing contest start a new thread.So ****ing drop it. I haven't replied to your petty argumentative bull above this time, and I'm not going to again... that's called dropping it.

:)

Mr Punch

02-04-2006, 05:57 PM

Just checked what I thought Tenjin Shinyo was and it turns out I don't know...:o

What is it?

Finny

02-04-2006, 08:27 PM

Widely thought by whom?

Not challenging you in any way, just wondering how it is that you have such conviction on a subject that is still widely debated.

Hi Mat - you're absolutely right - the subject is still widely debated and I probably shouldn't have typed such a biased response - much of what I wrote is personal opinion. I spelled out my viewpoint quite thoroughly here: http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/showthread.php?t=39659&page=3&highlight=daito+itto

Yes, I am aware of the history of Daito-ryu. Its principles are based upon battlefield fighting techniques to be used when a warrior had lost his weapon. Thus its purpose was to incapacitate or kill the opponent.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree - there are several "battlefield" style grappling systems still extant in japan, Yagyu Shingan Ryu and Takenouchi Ryu being two well known ones. Battlefield systems are designed to work around armour - Daito Ryu is definately NOT a battlefield art. According to it's own lore, it was designed to be used "inside the threshold" (oshikiuchi) in the palace, where swords were not permitted.

Just checked what I thought Tenjin Shinyo was and it turns out I don't know...

What is it?

Hi Mat,

Tenjin Shinyo Ryu was founded sometime in the early 1800s by Iso Mataemon Masatari. He had trained extensively in Akiyama Yoshin Ryu and Shin no Shinto Ryu. It is a unarmoured style of jujutsu, which Kano Jigoro studied and used as the basis for Kodokan Judo (along with Kito Ryu). It is noted for a particularly effective and broad study of throwing, joint locking and strangulation techniques.

http://www.koryu.com/guide/shinyo.html

also, there is a great article on Tenjin Shinyo Ryu in the first of the Koryu.com books, found here: http://koryu.com/store/book1.html

Tenjin Shinyo Ryu is headed by Kubota Toshihiro in Tokyo, who teaches both Tenjin Shinyo Ryu and traditional Kodokan Judo - from what I heard their practise is very hard core, and beautifully efficient. FWIW, I heard a seasoned western koryu expert describe Tenjin Shinyo Ryu as "the real aiki" ... (and he's an aikido practitioner to boot).

Blacktiger

02-05-2006, 05:25 PM

Wood Dragon

02-05-2006, 06:14 PM

No one questioned Takamatsu why question Hatsumi - As with all things schools differ from place to place.

But I dont think many question Hatsumi only those who are uninformed, he has serious skills any one who has trained with him in Japan wont have too many negative things to say.

Its a good reality art all in all

I don't think anyone has seriously questioned Hatsumi's skill or ability to teach. It's the lack of quality control in the Bujinkan in the World at large that draws remark. For every Jack Hoban or Sean Askew, you've got twenty guys with mullets, who have a sketchy grasp of the basics and are passing on bad instruction.

As to Takamatsu: No one questions the fact that he had incredible skills, or that he passed the system on to Hatsumi. What people question is where the system came from, prior to Takamatsu.
Did it originate in the way that is the "official history" (Togakure-ryu being 9 centuries old, etc)? Did Takematsu assemble the 9 schools himself, from other sources? Did he somehow develop 9 distinct systems on his own?

Blacktiger

02-05-2006, 07:08 PM

Yes agree with all of that. When an organisation gets big you will always get a little loss of quality and a few cowboys out there.

Read below out of interest, just thought I would tack it on. :D

Soke Masaaki Hatsumi's Traditions:
Togakure Ryu Ninpo Happo Hiken, 34th Grandmaster Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu Happo Hiken, 28th Grandmaster Koto Ryu Koppojutsu Happo Hiken, 18th Grandmaster Shinden Fudo Ryu Daken Taijutsu Happo Hiken, 26th Grandmaster Kukishin Ryu Taijutsu Happo Hiken, 28th Grandmaster Takagiyoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu Happo Hiken, 17th Grandmaster Kumogakure Ryu Ninpo Happo Hiken, 14th Grandmaster Gyokushin Ryu Ninpo Happo Hiken, 21st Grandmaster Gikan Ryu Koppojutsu Happo Hiken, 15th Grandmaster

Mr Punch

02-05-2006, 07:14 PM

Thanks for the info, Finny. And yeah, I remember reading you about daito ryu before. Interesting.

Finny

02-05-2006, 07:37 PM

But I dont think many question Hatsumi only those who are uninformed, he has serious skills any one who has trained with him in Japan wont have too many negative things to say.

I didn't mention either the 'quality' of Mr. Hatsumi's sytstem nor anything to do with the way he runs his organisation.

My only point is that there are a large number of JMA/Japanese Military History experts who have serious issues with some of Mr. Hatsumi's claims. Serious people who have spent the majority of their lives researching and investigating classical Japanese martial arts and history.

Of the 9 styles Mr. Hatsumi claims to have inherited from Takamatsu, there are two which are authentic koryu bugei - martial arts of the bushi (samurai), not ninjutsu. They are Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu. There are a few different 'lineages' of these two styles in Japan, for example I believe the Kuki family still practises Kukishin Ryu, and there is a 'mainline' Hontai (Takagi) Yoshin Ryu headed by Inoue Tsuyoshi (see http://www.koryu.com/guide/hontai.html ). Both of these groups would be considered the senior lines of the two styles.

However, the three 'ninjutsu' ryuha that Mr. Hatsumi claims to have received from Takamatsu are another story. No one has seen any evidence to suggest that these three ryuha existed before Takamatsu. When Mr. Hatsumi applied to join the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai (one of the two main koryu organisations ) years ago, he was asked to provide the documentation that goes with inheriting a koryu bugei ryuha, as all the other members would have. These scrolls would have been analysed by experts to verify their authenticity. Mr. Hatsumi was not allowed to join. From what I've seen and heard, virtually all of the scrolls Mr. Hatsumi has in his posession were written by Takamatsu, who was apparently an outstanding calligrapher.

Above and beyond this, Mr. Hatsumi does not teach any of these styles in a koryu manner. He teaches a bunch of his styles mixed and matched together, and apparently doesn't teach any of the three 'ninjutsu' ryuha to anyone (although he has taught Togakure Ryu in the past, apparently).

But bear in mind, none of these historical issues effects the art as practised by however many millions are members of the Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan. If they love the art and it gives them what they are looking for - great. I just always like to provide a bit of an alternative viewpoint on this issue than the one commonly seen in mainstream martial arts circles, where Mr. Hatsumi is seen as "the authentic, legit ninjutsu guy", due to his excellent marketing and PR skills.

But the link I posted to in my previous post spells it all out.

Blacktiger

02-05-2006, 08:08 PM

Check this info - interesting, I have included the link as well.

I copied the relavant section.......

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/reference/ninjutsu

It must be noted that Mr Hatsumi's credentials, seriousness and the quality of his teaching have come under attack by various sources – most of the vocal and vicious attacks coming from people that claim to be practitioners of ninjutsu traditions that cannot be found in Japan. Some express doubt of his really having been a student to Takamatsu sensei – despite the certificates he has from Takamatsu, the interview Takamatsu did for Tokyo Sports News naming Hatsumi as his successor and the full DVD of them training together that is available. Others claim it is impossible that Takamatsu would seriously have managed to become sōke to nine different schools, even though most of the schools are closely related and had been transmitted together for generations. More point out the fact that Hatsumi seems overly generous with high ranking titles: he did grant a tenth degree black belt to Stephen K. Hayes (Stephen K. Hayes: more facts about this subject) after the latter had studied under him for barely 18 years. However, traditional martial arts do not use the dan grading system, and there are accounts of people being granted certificates of full mastery in arts within a few months. The debate is largely conducted overseas. Inside Japan the subject of his authenticity is rarely talked about. Masaaki Hatsumi was invited to join the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai and Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai but he declined. However he is a frequent subject of martial arts articles, books, documentaries and has received a prestigious cultural award from the Imperial Household Agency.

Then the flipside: http://www.schmitzrd.com/samples/ninjutsu2.htm

Finny

02-05-2006, 08:29 PM

Then the flipside: http://www.schmitzrd.com/samples/ninjutsu2.htm

Yeah, that's the article I posted on the other thread I linked to. But who is the author of the first article? Where does he/she get the information that Mr. Hatsumi was invited to join both the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai and the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai?

Why is it that anyone questioning Mr. Hatsumi's lineage is characterised as "people that claim to be practitioners of ninjutsu traditions that cannot be found in Japan"?

Dr. Karl Friday is a member of the Kashima Shinryu, has menkyo kaiden (license of full transmission) in the art, and is also a Professor of Japanese History at the University of Georgia - he is one of the West's foremost experts on classical JMA and Japanese Military History. I think I'll take his word over that of an anonymous essay which reads like a advertisement for the Bujinkan.... what did I say about Mr. Hatsumi's marketing skills?

Blacktiger

02-05-2006, 08:37 PM

Yeah thats it -dont know who wrote the first article - just found it.

Who knows what the "real" story is :confused:

Stranger

02-06-2006, 05:51 AM

Handing out rank before it has necessarily been earned is part of Hatsumi's approach to belt rankings. He learned this from Takamatsu [Hatsumi did NOT start that trend]. As to the Bujinkan being so big that Hatsumi doesn't know what is going on, that is incorrect. This is intentional on Hatsumi's part. After administering the 5th degree balack belt test to the 1000th successful recipient, Hatsumi was praised for being so prolific as to have so many students reach this rank. Hatsumi's frank response was words to the effect of, "Yes, 500 good ones and 500 bad ones." Rank means absolutely d1ck to Hatsumi, this is why he keeps on changing how many belts he offeres and how long they take to get. The people that worry about rank aren't getting what he is trying to say.

It has also been mentioned that Hatsumi only teaches the eclectic Bujinkan budo taijutsu. Having scene a Bujinkan syllabus, as handed to me by Jack Hoban, the ryu are taught individually after shodan. Each rank after shodan focuses on a particular ryu. Hatsumi does not publicly teach a lot of stuff he knows, but there are students, that he has shown it all to.

Wood Dragon

02-06-2006, 06:44 AM

Rank means absolutely d1ck to Hatsumi, this is why he keeps on changing how many belts he offeres and how long they take to get. The people that worry about rank aren't getting what he is trying to say.

.

Understood.

However, it screws up the folks who -havent- been around long enough to know what's going on. If -I- decided to study the system, I know who to go to (Hoban, Askew, etc), because I keep my ear to the ground. Bob Somebody, who just heard of the Bujinkan, is unable to differentiate between the "500 good ones" and the "500 bad ones". They are all upper Dan grades. How is he to know otherwise?

It allows the bottom feeders to camoflage themselves from outsiders, and worse, their own students.

Stranger

02-06-2006, 09:15 AM

A very valid concern. I think Hatsumi inherited teachings of a very small following and desired to make them more wide spread. If you walk into a dojo run by the 500 good ones, you are set. If you walk into a dojo run by the 500 bad ones, you may blindly stay, leave in disgust, or be exposed to somebody better in the Bujinkan who you would rather study under. I believe Hatsumi has added up how this approach helps his goals, how it hurts them, and made his choice that this apporach would guarantee the greatest number of good ones regardless of the cost. If things were extremely strict, maybe we wouldn't be exposed to Hatsumi due to only a handful of training locations. Like I said, I find the concern valid but I understand Hatsumi's way is just another way of doing things.

Blacktiger

02-06-2006, 03:28 PM

It was only a short time ago that Hatsumi opened up the art to the westerner and it was no mistake that Stephen Hayes was promoted to 10th dan etc - to spread Ninjutsu into the west.

I have heard through the grapevine that its all going to close up agian as Hatsumi is happy with the growth but does not want the art to go super nova.

Its funny I have heard from many sources in the game that the videos and dvds that are released have wrong steps and moves thrown in on purpose.

paradoxbox

02-06-2006, 08:04 PM

Quoting Wood Dragon:
>8 of the 9 systems (ryu) cannot be traced back prior to the emergence of Takematsu. One of the 9 is, last I heard, considered (by outside experts) to be identical to a ryu of the same name from another system entirely, which CAN trace it's lineage back several centuries (and is thus a Koryu).<

That's incorrect. Both Kukishin ryu and all variations of Yoshin ryu (Hontai Takagi Yoshin, Hontai Yoshin, etc.) are considered koryu. If you want to get nit picky, Hatsumi's kukishinden happo bikenjutsu is not really koryu as it's a composite of techniques from other Kuki family arts. But Kukishin ryu itself is very old. As is any variation of Yoshin ryu.

I've heard an 'expert' claim similar things as to what you're saying in that paragraph as well, I believe it was a Russian guy with a PhD who wrote a book about Japanese martial arts. It was quite obvious he only made a passing glance at bujinkan's material before writing about it, as most of his research was way off base (I wouldn't use any of the information he provided).

Togakure ryu, according to some people, has strong edo period style movement in it. Lack of proof does not mean lack of existence. In addition to this, it has been verified that Daisuke Nishina did exist about 900 years ago and was named in an ancient text. It does not indicate whether or not he knew Togakure ryu, however it's a starting point and it leans in favor of Togakure ryu being real. Furthermore, Takamatu's teacher's grave (Toda) appears to have been found in Kobe, and further research is going to be conducted.

As for Dr. Karl Friday, he has publicly stated that he believes it's likely Gyokko and Koto ryu are as old as their lineages claim.

The article that was posted has been spin doctored by Mr. Skoss and his cronies. I can find you a posting of Mr. Skoss's that will make anything he says seem a little less credible. He has his own agenda, and it does not involve proper, unbiased research of the people or ryuha he attempts to discredit. Skoss has publicly stated he will not accept any evidence of ninjutsu as being real. So regardless of what proof people can provide, it's apparently not good enough for Mr. Skoss.

A lot of people (who don't know any better) get riled up when they see people like Hatsumi with 9sokeships or Tanemura with even more, and a truck load of menkyo kaiden. People who don't really know Japanese martial arts history think that it takes a lifetime to master even 1 ryu.. Well, the reality is it doesn't. It takes about 4 to 7 years to master most ryu (achieve menkyo kaiden). This is extremely common, especially among people who do martial arts full time.

It's like being a tradesman. You start out in your first trade. It can take a few years before you're really good. But you do your apprenticeship and finally become a journeyman, then after a few more years you're a real expert. And the interesting thing is you start to be able to do all kinds of other trades in even less time, your apprenticeship time is cut down. Some tradesmen have dozens of trades under their belts, but they're not 90 years old either. I have a friend who's 35 and has 14 trades under his belt.

As for Hatsumi and creativity (by the way that very subject has become a huge topic on another popular martial arts forum), I am of the belief that Hatsumi is not really teaching things in the same way he was taught by Takamatsu, or as Takamatsu was taught by his teachers. Hatsumi is very eccentric, and he's also very good at marketing. He has created a very loyal base of followers who are almost cultish at times and lash out the moment anyone questions anything Hatsumi is doing. Hatsumi's claims to some ryu (like gikan ryu) are disputed. Kukishinden happo bikenjutsu is also somewhat disputed, it appears to be a composite system of other Kukishin arts created by Takamatsu for Hatsumi.'

Regarding Hatsumi and ranking. It's very important that people do not compare ranks within ninpo to ranks in other systems. Ranks in other systems belong to their respective systems. They do not apply to the ninpo organizations, because the ninpo organizations use their own rank systems. The requirements per rank may be totally different. For example, in kendo, you must be a certain age before achieving a certain rank, despite what your technical ability is. In the the genbukan, your rank is limited by your technical ability and how many classes you've attended. In the bujinkan, there is no real limit. So keep this in mind, it's important.

In my opinion the genbukan and jinenkan are better organizations to join than bujinkan. I was a student of bujinkan before, I am in the genbukan now. With bujinkan there is no guarantee you are receiving good instruction.

Wood Dragon

02-06-2006, 09:53 PM

I knew about Yoshinryu being authenticated, but hadnt heard about Kukishin.

Lack of proof does not prove the negative, true. I wasnt addressing that, just that Hatsumi has been upfront with the fact that there is not enough hard evidence to be had, ergo no membership in the Nippon Kobudo Shinkokai (or the other organization, which I can never remember).

Meik Skoss has said he won't address the Koryu-ness of any ryuha that isnt a member of the above organizations. Which is the benchmark for any claim of Koryu-ness, if only by virtue of all the established Koryu schools being members. They require hard proof, up to and including carbon-14 dating of documents. Can't meet that standard? No hard feelings or accusation of fraud, you just cannot join.

Skoss' stance seems very reasonable, as it was members of the Bujinkan who approached -him- about why he made no mention of the Takamatsuden ryuha (I was a fly on the wall for said exchange).

The Ranking issue is thus: Hatsumi adopted (as a pre-Meiji system would have the classical ranking system, not kyu/dan) the Kano-system of colored belts and kyu-dan ranks. This is understandable, as he was a Judo champion prior to his meeting Takamatsu. Others, however, used it before him, and certain definitions were set in stone.

He can say it means whatever he wants it to, but outsiders see the dan ranks and think Kano-style dan (expert). So when a 5th Dan of the Bujinkan sucks, it reflects badly on the Bujinkan, even if the rank means nothing inside the Bujinkan. When observers see someone getting inflated ranks off the shelf, it screams McDojo. Thus, the Bujinkan has no leg to stand on when they protest that they are being tarred with a broad brush.

Not to mention this must cause resentment internally, in people who train hard then see some fool getting the same recognition for much less effort or skill.

Some of the real damage occurs when the mook with the unearned Godan uses it to attract students. One mook who doesnt have the skill commensurate with his rank becomes twenty who dont. Viral decay of the system.

For myself: I was interested in what the Bujinkan had to offer, a few years ago. An aquaintance, Lee Drew of Birmingham AL, who is a Bujinkan instructor (good one too), showed me a copy of the yearly curriculum promulgated by the honbu. It was.....extensive. I handed it back, said "best of luck with that" and stayed with Kyokushin. Mix & match from 9 different ryuha is a bit too much variety.

Finny

02-06-2006, 10:31 PM

Which is the benchmark for any claim of Koryu-ness, if only by virtue of all the established Koryu schools being members.

Sorry to nitpick, but it is my understanding that there are plenty of authentic koryu which are not members of either organisation, for a variety of reasons.

Wood Dragon

02-07-2006, 05:50 AM

Sorry to nitpick, but it is my understanding that there are plenty of authentic koryu which are not members of either organisation, for a variety of reasons.

Probably quite true.

However, many researchers (to include Skoss) use the member lists as a benchmark, as those schools within the organization are guaranteed to have their bona fides. As Skoss is one of the "faces" of Koryu research, he caught flak from some members of the Bujinkan for not including them in his published material. His response was that he referenced only those schools within the aforementioned organizations, and that was that. Some of the petitioners took that as a dismissal of -them-, rather than a dismissal of the subject. More or less one sided E-feud ensues.

Lastly, unless Hatsumi completely reorganized the Bujinkan curriculum and praxis, they arent getting into the above organizations. Why? Because it isnt enough simply to teach a pre-Meiji system. It has to be taught in the accepted "period" manner and aesthetic. Colored belts, kyu/dan rankings, Kano-style instructional format, non-differentiated transmission (not teaching the 9 ryuha as seperate schools).

That's what -really- kills the hope of Bujinkan being "officially" recognized as a non-Gendai system. If you think the cats in the SCA are nazis about being "period", wait until you get a load of the folks from Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu, as well as other Koryu schools. Conservative doesnt describe it. Museum curators (that's not a criticism, it's how they describe themselves).

End of the Day: Does it matter that the Takumatsu-den arent considered Koryu? Not to Hatsumi, evidently.

paradoxbox

02-07-2006, 04:09 PM

Bujinkan is gendai. It was created in the late 60's. The ryu of Bujinkan are "koryu", although technically not filling all of the requirements of the hard fixed term Mr Skoss likes to slap around.

I would say that anyone who thinks Takamatsu invented all the ryu he had is an idiot. And I don't just mean that metaphorically. If anyone here thinks that, you're an idiot. There's just too many different ryu, too much differences and too much history.

If we go back to Takamatsu's teacher of the ninpo ryu, Toda, we're getting into the realm of the early meiji period and possibly even late edo period. If we go back 1 more teacher, you've got yourself a koryu simply based on age.

Considering the fact that the ninpo styles seem to be influenced by early to mid edo period movement style, it seems very likely that they are koryu. It also seems likely that they are somewhat different from how they were 500 years ago, but the "meat" of them is probably the same.

As for the major koryu organizations and being legitimate and all that nonsense. There are so many actual koryu who stay away from those organizations it's not even funny. The koryu orgs are loaded with politics and backstabbing and all kinds of garbage best left to salarymen in navy blue pinstripe suits.

I'm surprised you didn't know about Kukishin ryu. Some of the Kuki scrolls are extremely ancient and describe directly techniques from various Kukishin ryuha (including one scroll which may be responsible for the reconstruction of the full Togakure ryu)

Wood Dragon

08-05-2006, 10:35 PM

Btt.

Btt.

Samurai Jack

08-06-2006, 01:57 AM

Why are you resurrecting this old thread wood dragon? You didn't add anything... :confused:

Finny

08-06-2006, 02:11 AM

I know it's an old thread, but for clarification's sake.

The ryu of Bujinkan are "koryu", although technically not filling all of the requirements of the hard fixed term Mr Skoss likes to slap around.

Not just Mr. Skoss - the term has a meaning, as used by the Japanese themselves. 7 of the 9 ryu Hatsumi claims are not koryu as defined by the people who use the term - it's that simple.

I would say that anyone who thinks Takamatsu invented all the ryu he had is an idiot.

Take some reading comprehension classes. Hontai (Takagi) Yoshin Ryu and Kukishin Ryu are koryu. Takamatsu was an acknowledged senior exponent of these two arts (though NOT the head). The other ryu he passed to Hatsumi appeared out of thin air.

And Watatani Kiyoshi wrote in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, that his friend Takamatsu did indeed "make up" his "ninpo ryuha" from childhood ninja games.

If we go back to Takamatsu's teacher of the ninpo ryu, Toda, we're getting into the realm of the early meiji period and possibly even late edo period. If we go back 1 more teacher, you've got yourself a koryu simply based on age.

Except that there is no evidence that Toda Masamitsu even existed. Nor is there any evidence that his predecessor (whoever that is) existed... and so on.

Considering the fact that the ninpo styles seem to be influenced by early to mid edo period movement style, it seems very likely that they are koryu. It also seems likely that they are somewhat different from how they were 500 years ago, but the "meat" of them is probably the same.

What? they "seem to be influenced by Edo period style", so they are probably koryu? Yeah - that's a convincing argument.

As for the major koryu organizations and being legitimate and all that nonsense. There are so many actual koryu who stay away from those organizations it's not even funny. The koryu orgs are loaded with politics and backstabbing and all kinds of garbage best left to salarymen in navy blue pinstripe suits.

So you say. Nice ad hominem argument. If, however, the Bujinkan was not a member of these organisations because they are "loaded with politics and backstabbing" - why did Hatsumi try to gain membership?

I'm surprised you didn't know about Kukishin ryu. Some of the Kuki scrolls are extremely ancient and describe directly techniques from various Kukishin ryuha (including one scroll which may be responsible for the reconstruction of the full Togakure ryu)

The Kukishin Ryu is Kukishin Ryu, and has no bearing on the legitimacy of the other 'ninjutsu' arts Hatsumi claims.

The fact is, there are other, senior lines of both Kukishin Ryu and Hontai Yoshin Ryu. Hatsumi recieved certification in these two koryu from Takamatsu. That much is indisputable.

BUT:

1. He doesn't teach them as koryu.

and

2. There is no evidence to suggest that the other 7 arts he claims are koryu. Feel free to believe his word - I'll wait on the evidence.

blackmantis

08-06-2006, 06:02 AM

Sorry to bring this back to my original question guys, I understand there are other issues here and thanks a lot for your advice but...

I'm practising Xingyi and Bagua a LOT these days, and really enjoy the energy work and qigong-type exercises as well as the fighting abilities of these styles.

Do any of the Japanese styles have well developed energy practises? Does Bujinkan? Aikido? Anything else?

Bujinkan does look cool, but after everything you people have said here I might just stay away to be safe.

(I practise Heibei Xingyi and Cheng Bagua if that helps at all)

Many thanks my friends,

S

Finny

08-06-2006, 06:57 AM

BigPandaBear

08-06-2006, 08:54 AM

This lineage crap is part of the reason why I'd avoid traditional martial arts like the plague. Its utter and complete foolishness and one-up manship as people try to determine who is the "real deal".

Take Judo vs any given Jujutsu style; Every legit Judo dojo is affiliated with the IJF in some way shape or form. All of Judo's official techniques are available on the internet or in books. The history of Judo is well known and recorded by objective sources. Meanwhile in Jujutsus you have word of mouth, wild historical tales, various splinter groups, and hidden techniques.

Unfortunately traditional jutsus have this completely unjustified mystique around them where people believe that the old methods are somehow superior to modern methods that have been enhanced through the use of science and trial/error. Which is why you have so many frauds and phonies propping up in jujutsus who charge ridiculous prices for lackluster instruction.

My advice to you would be to find a modern MMA karate style like Kyokushin and/or its derivatives. Take up a Judo class on the side to compliment your karate (if its not already being offered by the karate club), and you'll be doing a method superior to those old jutsu styles anyway.

Now if you want to be a cultural hobbyist (i.e. a Ninja master), that's totally up to you.

Asia

08-06-2006, 08:58 AM

Hello everyone,

I am 17 and have been practising martial arts since I was 13. I train in 8 Step Mantis and Xingyi and love them both. Because I am very involved in both Japanese culture and the Japanese community in my city, I would like to become involved in Japanese martial arts.

Aikido and Aikijutsu both appeal as I think they would be sufficiently different to what I'm training in at the moment, but really I'm not sure which style to become interested in. I've heard mixed reports of Bujinkan Ninjutsu, and other styles (like Shintaido) I don't know anything about. I am not particularly interested in Judo or Kendo as they look fairly sports orientated and I would like to keep training in an unarmed style.

I am going to continue practising my mantis and xingyi but would be interested in if anyone has any advice regarding Japanese martial arts!

Many thanks!

S

Bujinkan, and other Xkans, do not really teach ninjutsu. The majority of the material taught come form Gyokko Ryu Koshijutsu, Koto Ryu Koppojutsu, Kukishin Ryu (take your pick from bojutsu to bikenjutsu). Of the 9 schools only 3 are listed as ninjutsu and two are debateable, but thats another thread. If you are intrested in classical JMA its not bad but I would suggest the Jinenkan because it doesn't use the "Ninja"(which is greatly misunderstood) theme alot.

Shintaido is nice but more towards the "new age hippie" side as opposed to being a fighting art.

Judo is the best on the list thus far. Sport oriented or not I have personally used Judo in more real fights than any other MA that I have done, and thats alot. Learning to introduce pple to the ground at a high rate of speed will always be a valuable skill in fighting.

Aikido.......well erh just pass it. Seriously the level of A holeness is up there with the Bujinkan. You find many MA snoobs in Aikido with little to be snooby about. A BJJ student might be more harsh and vocal about their art but they are always willing to get on the mat and show you first hand. The same can't be said for Aikido. Plus I've seen that most pple who do Aikido think that if they train hard enough they will somehow turn Japanese.(This can be said bout the Buj as well). Its really silly.

My personable recommendation is if you want to take a JMA and want effective training then take Kyokushin Karate and Judo. If you want more of an historical context then look into so TRUE Koryu arts. (By this I mean don't just take the persons word for it if its koryu or not. Research).

Asia

08-06-2006, 09:27 AM

I will add ot the discussion on my personal research on the ryuha.

The 3 "ninjutsu" schools of the Bujinkan are Togakure Ryu, Kumogakure Ry, and Gyokushin Ryu.

I've been looking into Gyokushin Ryu for sometime. To date I haven't found anything outside of the Xkans that says Gyokushin Ryu was a ninjutsu school. I have found Gyokushin Ryu Koppojutsu, and Gyokushin Ryu Jujutsu, but no ninjutsu.

What made me doubt Gyokushin as ninjutsu i that both the JJ school and the "ninjutsu" school says the trademark of this school is SUTEMI WAZA (aka sacrafice throws). Now different schools have shared the same name and had no relation to each other but its a big coincodence that the school have the same name and have the same hallmark. Yoseikan founder, Minoru Mochizuki, stated that he trained Gyokushin Ryu JJ and said the sutemi waza was the strength of the school and he included them in his Yoseikan Budo. Respected MA historian and practioner, Ueno Takashi, was also a student of Takamatsu. He learned this school from him and it was listed as Koppojutsu. For some reaason Ueno's lineage is accepted as the actual lineage of the school and Hatsumi's is not. (Ueno's appears in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten). The current soke under the Ueno line is Kaminaga Shingemi. He is the 16th soke. Hatsumi is listed as the 21st soke but with alot of names missing from his lineage.

BigPandaBear

08-06-2006, 09:45 AM

Asia.....

I don't think its a good idea to turn this into a debate about the validity of Ninjutsu. I definitely think it'd be best reserved for another thread, because your insight in the matter seems to be spot-on.

However, I've seen this type of debate spring up in other forums, and its not a pretty sight. I'm sure you know all about that though. ;)

The Xia

08-06-2006, 10:08 AM

The whole Bujinkan thing is complex, to say the least. Takamatsu referred to himself as a Ninja. Asia is correct that 3 Ryu are called Ninjutsu in Bujinkan. However, the Koryu organizations have given Hatsumi issues. Out of curiosity, would you say that Bujinkan has nothing to do with Ninpo? I've heard lots of positives about Hatsumi, and lots of negative about other Bujinkan sensei. It seems to me that the Ninja Craze of the 80s gave Hatsumi alot of publicity and alot of unqualified people became licensed.

Finny

08-06-2006, 10:12 AM

Unfortunately traditional jutsus have this completely unjustified mystique around them where people believe that the old methods are somehow superior to modern methods that have been enhanced through the use of science and trial/error. Which is why you have so many frauds and phonies propping up in jujutsus who charge ridiculous prices for lackluster instruction.

A classic misnomer usually propounded by those who haven't been exposed to (ie. can't be bothered researching) genuine koryu arts.

The thing is - true koryu arts are exceedingly rare outside Japan. They are easy to research these days. There are only a few left. If it aint one of the ones you can find a bit of info about on the net, it usually aint koryu.

Most people claiming to teach "traditional samurai jujutsu" or "traditional aikijujutsu" or whatever are not teaching koryu arts - and these tend to be the ones charging ridiculous prices for lackluster instruction - as you said. IMHO those who are suckered by these people deserve to be so - for the reasons stated above.

Just about every koryu exponent I have spoken to has gone to great lengths to state that the old methods are probably NOT 'somehow superior'. They are simply designed for different purposes, and are therefore different. In most instances these differences usually render them less appropriate for today's purposes.

Lastly - with regards to koryu bugei - the fact is that the lineage is the whole point. Some folks see this as petty, but that's what the term means - a stream from the past. Typically those who have problems with lineage discussions are those who want to find a short cut around the issue, or simply can't be bothered putting in the effort to become a part of the 'stream'.

Mr Punch

08-06-2006, 10:52 AM

It is my understanding that some of the koryu do have comprehensive energy and breathwork practises - Goto-Ha Yagyu Shingan Ryu Heihojutsu comes to mind.

I don't know about Aikido - I doubt orthodox aikido would have sophisticated, complete qigong curricula, but I could well be wrong.

I am quite sure that some of the more 'internal' oriented lines of Daito Ryu (Kodokai, Roppokai, Sagawa dojo) have serious energy/breath work practises.From my knowledge this is accurate.

Most aikido's energetics are not an especially complete or logical system. The stuff directly from Ueshiba comes as much from obscure Shinto practise as from any koryu, and largely consists of a few breathing exercises. Their are some aiki scholars and teachers who would argue and write reams of discourse about the deoth of aiki breathing energetics in technical application, but while some of it is logical, frankly I suspect its origin.

Having said that, some of its breathing exercises are quite good, and as I said before I like aiki, though I can well understand Asia's response as their are many stuffy wierdos in aiki too!

My internals/koryu principles teacher comes from a hsingyi background and Sagawa's Daito line and mixes the two's breathing principles and general internal principles quite impressively, but he is quite eccentric and admits to having made most of these things up, or should I say, to having discovered the similarities. He does have a lot of skill however so I'm obviously not denigrating him.

He is however in Japan: I don't think his approach is so common even over here even within Sagawa's minority, so in Europe I would certainly have my doubts.

My advice is: give one of them a try. The aikido teachers you find will probably be insufferable prats anyway, which will effectively limit your choices! :D

BigPandaBear

08-06-2006, 11:37 AM

A classic misnomer usually propounded by those who haven't been exposed to (ie. can't be bothered researching) genuine koryu arts.

The thing is - true koryu arts are exceedingly rare outside Japan. They are easy to research these days. There are only a few left. If it aint one of the ones you can find a bit of info about on the net, it usually aint koryu.

Most people claiming to teach "traditional samurai jujutsu" or "traditional aikijujutsu" or whatever are not teaching koryu arts - and these tend to be the ones charging ridiculous prices for lackluster instruction - as you said. IMHO those who are suckered by these people deserve to be so - for the reasons stated above.

I couldn't disagree more. No one deserves to be suckered by a fraud. Its up to the various MA communities to make sure that the name of their respective arts is not sullied by frauds and pickpockets. If you know there's a group out there spreading bad MA and you do nothing about it, you're part of the problem.

Just about every koryu exponent I have spoken to has gone to great lengths to state that the old methods are probably NOT 'somehow superior'. They are simply designed for different purposes, and are therefore different. In most instances these differences usually render them less appropriate for today's purposes.

I hope you don't honestly believe that the classic Jujutsus were "battlefield arts" used to disarm Samurais from horseback or other such nonsense. That's a common misconception I see coming out of traditional MAs these days. They believe their respective style was born from the blood of war or some other garbage, when in reality nothing could be further from the truth.

Lastly - with regards to koryu bugei - the fact is that the lineage is the whole point. Some folks see this as petty, but that's what the term means - a stream from the past. Typically those who have problems with lineage discussions are those who want to find a short cut around the issue, or simply can't be bothered putting in the effort to become a part of the 'stream'.

I have problem with lineage discussions because it IS petty and ridiculous. There is little to be gained from such discussions because nothing is going to be done with the fradulant ryuha anyway. Look at what happened with the Xkans, they broke apart and now squabble like children over who's really doing "real Ninjutsu".

As I told the original poster, its often better to stay away from TMAs altogether, unless your goal is to be a cultural hobbyist.

The Xia

08-06-2006, 11:57 AM

Read about the history of various Jujutsu Ryu and you will see plenty of real fighting. Read about someone like Sokaku Takeda. History dissproves this claim that TMA is a mere "cultural hobby".

BigPandaBear

08-06-2006, 12:28 PM

Read about the history of various Jujutsu Ryu and you will see plenty of real fighting. Read about someone like Sokaku Takeda. History dissproves this claim that TMA is a mere "cultural hobby".

Sokaku Takeda being part of a TMA really means nothing, what matters is how the individual exponent uses his art in his environment.

If you're a cop, soldier, or a fighter using Daito Ryu Aikijutsu, then no, you're not a cultural hobbyist. The number of people in those professions who would use a TMA in a combat situation however is more than likely extremely small.

Asia

08-06-2006, 01:06 PM

Read about the history of various Jujutsu Ryu and you will see plenty of real fighting. Read about someone like Sokaku Takeda. History dissproves this claim that TMA is a mere "cultural hobby".
I greatly disagree.

When Tekeda was using Daito Ryu it wasn't a TMA. It wasn't practiced like so called TMA are not. Its primary goal was FIGHTING. It wasn't playing Japanese dress up and pretend to battle. This is what the majority of MArtist today do. TMA get talked down on because many of the methods of combat are no longer done. Kukishin Ryu was noted for fighting at sea. For that they adopted wides low stances for stability when using Bo, Jo, and katana. We don't fight like that anymore so the main reason to continue training like that is for a cultural or historical hobby.

If you're a cop, soldier, or a fighter using Daito Ryu Aikijutsu, then no, you're not a cultural hobbyist. The number of people in those professions who would use a TMA in a combat situation however is more than likely extremely small.
Absolutely correct. The mindset and enviorment of the training is totally different. When its time to for a Combatives class we don't bow we don't dress up. We have are own (sub)cultrual norms that we apply to it. (ie you address each other by rank and last name. We shake or slap hand before sparring, etc) This is different than how TMA are practiced because they bring in alot of things that are outside their cultural and temporal norms.

Asia

08-06-2006, 01:08 PM

The Xia

08-06-2006, 01:19 PM

It is true that most Budoka of Japanense history were fighting with weaponry. This doesn't discredit the unarmed skills they developed though. People like to dismiss learning weapons by saying that no one is going to walk around with a Katana, etc. However, weapons training improves unarmed martial arts skill. It conditions the martial artist and weapon principles can be applied to unarmed combat. Sokaku Takeda applied swordsmanship to his unarmed style. And in a fight, you may have an object available to you that can be used as a weapon. Your weapons training will pay off at such a moment. Japanese customs are practiced in Budo because Budo is Japanese. That doesn't negate it's combat worthiness.

Wood Dragon

08-06-2006, 04:27 PM

Almost all (except Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu?) of the Koryu were born in the Late Muromachi/Early Edo Periods, when everyone was nice to each other (on pain of death), and all actually developed in that Period.

None were developed to handle the battlefields of the Sengoku Jidai. Rather, they were developed from the skillset that existed at the end of the Warrring States Period, to train men who did not have any experience in war. Two different things, entirely.

The tranquility of the Period was what stimulated the codification of the Koryu as coherent ryu, in the first place.

The current practitioners are more guardians of a cultural treasure than fighters. They will tell you this themselves.

Form following function, the techniques contained within the jujutsu, say, Tatsumi-ryu*, will be quite effective. There will not be any surprises for someone familiar with Judo, though.

*- Individual Koryu are not single-aspect systems like Karate or Judo. They often contain every skillset a soldier or Samurai was supposed to possess. Tatsumi-ryu, for example, includes:

kenjutsu (odachi, kodachi, nito, fukuro shinai); iai (odachi); yawara; sojutsu; bojutsu (rokushaku bo, hanbo); shurikenjutsu; hojojutsu; shudan sentoho; monomi.

Also, each Koryu has it's own vocabulary, so terms do not neccessarily cross over.

Finny

08-06-2006, 05:23 PM

I couldn't disagree more. No one deserves to be suckered by a fraud. Its up to the various MA communities to make sure that the name of their respective arts is not sullied by frauds and pickpockets. If you know there's a group out there spreading bad MA and you do nothing about it, you're part of the problem.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Caveat Emptor, as the saying goes.

I hope you don't honestly believe that the classic Jujutsus were "battlefield arts" used to disarm Samurais from horseback or other such nonsense. That's a common misconception I see coming out of traditional MAs these days. They believe their respective style was born from the blood of war or some other garbage, when in reality nothing could be further from the truth.

You obviously know nothing of the koryu. I never said anything about disarming samurai from horseback or any such nonsense, but there ARE classical jujutsu ryuha still extant whose focus is battlefield combat. Takenouchi Ryu, Araki Ryu and Yagyu Shingan Ryu are a few examples I can think of. See:

A classic misnomer usually propounded by those who haven't been exposed to (ie. can't be bothered researching) genuine koryu arts.

I have problem with lineage discussions because it IS petty and ridiculous. There is little to be gained from such discussions because nothing is going to be done with the fradulant ryuha anyway. Look at what happened with the Xkans, they broke apart and now squabble like children over who's really doing "real Ninjutsu".

The xkans are not koryu. As I said, do some research into the koryu.

Almost all (except Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu?) of the Koryu were born in the Late Muromachi/Early Edo Periods, when everyone was nice to each other (on pain of death), and all actually developed in that Period

Not really - Maniwa Nen Ryu, Araki Ryu, Takenouchi Ryu were all founded prior to the Edo period.

There are numerous koryu founded throughout the Edo period, not just Early Edo period.

None were developed to handle the battlefields of the Sengoku Jidai. Rather, they were developed from the skillset that existed at the end of the Warrring States Period, to train men who did not have any experience in war. Two different things, entirely.

Not exactly. Another common misinterpretation of Japanese history is that once 1606 hit, "battlefield combat" was over, and peace reigned. There were several battles fought throughout the early Edo period (around the time you state ALL koryu developed). And skirmishes, and importantly, duels, were very frequent.

The current practitioners are more guardians of a cultural treasure than fighters. They will tell you this themselves.

Many are both.

Wood Dragon

08-06-2006, 06:18 PM

Not really - Maniwa Nen Ryu, Araki Ryu, Takenouchi Ryu were all founded prior to the Edo period.

They were founded in the late Muromachi, which I referenced.

blackmantis

08-07-2006, 06:01 AM

Would you guys reccomend Yoshinkan Aikido? It's meant to be pretty effective - don't Tokyo Police practise this art??

S

Finny

08-07-2006, 06:28 AM

I personally am not a big fan of aikido - if I was to learn some, Yoshinkan would be where I'd go - they're known as a harder, rougher branch of aikido.

If you're still planning on going to London, you could check out some Tenjin Shinyo Ryu jujutsu - this is one of the styles Kano Jigoro based Kodokan Judo on - there are two authorised dojo outside Japan, one's in London. They practise Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jujutsu and traditional Kodokan Judo. Hardcore stuff. Tenjin Shinyo Ryu is a late Edo period unarmed jujutsu system, known for effective throwing, choking, striking, pinning and breaking techniques.

If you're interested I'll PM you an email address.

BigPandaBear

08-07-2006, 06:52 AM

Would you guys reccomend Yoshinkan Aikido? It's meant to be pretty effective - don't Tokyo Police practise this art??

S

It depends on your mindset. Any Aikido program is difficult to learn, because standing locks are hard to pull off.

The Tokyo police practice a lot of arts, not just Yoshinkan Aikido.

If you're trying to become a fighter, you should avoid arts like Aikido and classical Jujutsu. Take an art where you'll be actually fighting someone in a full-contact environment. If you wish to be a cultural hobbyist, you can take any art that you want, but I don't think that's your goal.

Samurai Jack

08-07-2006, 07:27 AM

Aikido is a good martial art to practice. It provides it's adherents with a set of tools that are very valuable to a person wishing to learn self-defense.

1. You will learn to redirect an opponent's attack
2. You will learn to restrain and control an opponent.
3. you will learn to throw and pin an opponent.
4. you will learn distance and timing.
5. you will learn to control an opponents balance.
6. you will learn to handle multiple attackers.
7. You will learn to control the escalation of violence.
8. You will condition your body.
9. you will learn to use traditional japanese weapons.

It is not always easy to find a good school that trains with the right mindest, but you will recognize such a school by it's hard sweaty training, it's full speed attacks and defenses, and it's formal atmosphere. I recommend any dojo affiliated with Birankai International.

Wood Dragon

08-07-2006, 11:39 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZP4vJ3CYX8

My major concern (aside from the nonexistance of Bujinkan randori) would be the totally unrealistic method by which the attacker strikes during the drills. A lunging punch, with the off-arm refused? Humans do not attack like that. In many ways, it's worse than the Shotokan-derived "tori steps back, executes a low block, followed by a reverse-punch" drill.

It's not just unrealistic, it's totally misleading, rendering the reaction drill worthless.

I've seen tapes of the Bujinkan's Japanese Shihan. They don't teach this junk. And they arent getting it from classical jujutsu (which make up 6 of the 9 Bujinkan ryu), either.

The tori acting like the uke's hand is a Tazer doesnt help, either. It's one thing not to resist during a drill, but going boneless the second uke touches you is a bit much.

The Xia

08-20-2006, 01:37 PM

If this were the case, why would Takamatsu classify those three Ryu as Ninjutsu and why would he refer to himself as a ninja?
He certainly was "the real deal" as a fighter and bullshido doesn't coincide with his personality.

Stranger

08-20-2006, 03:09 PM

1) The long lunging punch is step one in the learning process. It gives lots of energy and offers a longer reaction time. Being able to do technique in response to this type of attack is not the end of the journey. A good shihan, of course, would not stop their training at this point, but move to the next level. (ex. I can counter a right lunging attack, can I now grow to counter attacks off of a right hand lead? It would be much less telegraphed and feed less enregy, but if I am good this is what my training must evolve into.) You know, big circles to little circles, prearranged movements to improv, or other advances. This could explian away what is seen as weak training as merely basic training. Perhaps going deeper in the art would reveal something grower more complex?

2) Hatsumi was a high level student of Yumio Nawa before training with Takamatsu. Many Japanese believe that Yumio Nawa was a master of ninjutsu. Therefore, of all three (4?) possible ninja grandmasters (some with greater reputation than others) of the generation proceeding Hatsumi, he earned teaching credentials from two. I think based on this point, if Hatsumi wants to call himslef a ninja, then it would be hard to find somebody more qualified to assess the validity of that statement.

3) Hatsumi and Takamatsu were both invited to the Kodokan to give instruction. How common is this for non-judoka? I would guess this would mean that they were both able to apply their art in randori. Takamatsu and Hatsumi both engaged in combative testing of their skills when they were younger.

4) Hatsumi has been involved in the past wiith the training of some of the best special operations units in the world. I'm not talking about having a few commandoes as students. I'm talking about being invited to the units home base to provide lengthy instruction. This would lead me to believe that whatever Hatsumi knows, some pretty impressive people found him worthy to listen to regarding the topic of combat.

The Xia

08-20-2006, 03:16 PM

Yumio Nawa...thats an interesting lead. Got any recommended reading reguarding him and Ninpo?
I'll also throw Seiko Fujita in this thread. It is said that he was the last Koga Ninja and took his Ninjutsu to the grave.

Finny

08-20-2006, 06:41 PM

2) Hatsumi was a high level student of Yumio Nawa before training with Takamatsu. Many Japanese believe that Yumio Nawa was a master of ninjutsu. Therefore, of all three (4?) possible ninja grandmasters (some with greater reputation than others) of the generation proceeding Hatsumi, he earned teaching credentials from two. I think based on this point, if Hatsumi wants to call himslef a ninja, then it would be hard to find somebody more qualified to assess the validity of that statement.

So you're saying if Mr. Hatsumi wants to call himself a ninja, no-one other than himself is more qualified to assess the validity of his own statement? ookay.

He did not earn teaching credentials from two - all of his teaching credentials are from Takamatsu.

And Yumio Nawa was not a ninja - himself and every one of his students consistently stated that he was a ninjutsu historian. He was the soke of Masaki Ryu. Can you name any of these "many Japanese" who believe he was a master of ninjutsu? Besides which - he never gave Mr. Hatsumi any teaching credentials.

3) Hatsumi and Takamatsu were both invited to the Kodokan to give instruction. How common is this for non-judoka?

It's not that uncommon - I can think of a koryu jujutsu shihan who was invited to the Kodokan to teach some resucitation methods to the high level judo guys.

4) Hatsumi has been involved in the past wiith the training of some of the best special operations units in the world. I'm not talking about having a few commandoes as students. I'm talking about being invited to the units home base to provide lengthy instruction. This would lead me to believe that whatever Hatsumi knows, some pretty impressive people found him worthy to listen to regarding the topic of combat.

Being an expert on combat doesnt make one a ninja.

Regardless of anyone's combat ability or skill or knowlege, there are separate issues involved here.

The Bujinkan may be the greatest martial arts style in the world - but it aint ninjutsu.

Mr. Hatsumi can call it ninjutsu as much as he wants, his students can call it ninjutsu - the fact is, there is no historical link/lineage to indicate that Mr. Hatsumi is passing on any ninjutsu tradition.

The Japanese were obsessive record keepers - they have distinct ways of passing down traditions - even traditions involving ninjutsu (see TSKSR/Tatsumi Ryu). Mr. Hatsumi doesn't have any evidence that would suggest there were practitioners of his "ninpo" ryuha before Takamatsu. As anyone who knows anything of history will understand, you need evidence to support any historical claim.

Mr. Hatsumi's evidence consists of his teacher - Takamatsu. Prior to Takamatsu, the lineage disappears into non-existant people (Toda) and other fictional characters.

There's a reason why Mr. Hatsumi is something of a joke among the koryu folk in Japan - and it aint cos he's a comedian.

You have to separate the combat effectiveness and knowlege Mr. Hatsumi may well posess from the historical issues. As I said - he may be the toughest fighter in the world, he might be the nicest guy in the world - but if he's going to claim to teach an "ancient lineage (or three)" of ninjutsu - he should provide some sort of evidence that goes beyond himself and Takamatsu - every other koryu can provide evidence of a lineage going back beyond the Meiji period - Mr. Hatsumi can't provide evidence beyond his own teacher.

Blacktiger

08-20-2006, 07:06 PM

And round and round we go.....:)

In 2000 Hatsumi was awarded Japan's highest honour - the cultural award by the Emperor of Japan.

Some joke

No one had a go at Takamatsu credentials :confused:

Finny

08-20-2006, 11:23 PM

Round and round indeed.

a) Since when did the emperor become "koryu folk"?

b) What does some cultural award have to do with the history of Hatsumi's ninjutsu? I remember reading about Frank Dux recieving a civil service award somewhere - does that make "Dux Ryu" legit ninjutsu?

c) Yes - people did question Takamatsu's credentials - when it came to ninjutsu.

Is it not telling that Donn Draeger - undoubtedly the west's pioneering MA researcher and someone who was intimately familiar with the koryu bugei at a time when most westerners thought the samurai practised karate and judo - chose NOT to study with Mr. Hatsumi, but rather with Otake Risuke Shihan of the TSKSR? And told others that Mr. Hatsumi's ninjutsu was not an historical lineage, but a modern recreation?

There is a reason there are not numerous threads questioning the historical veracity of Takenouchi Ryu or Shinkage Ryu, but there are dozens of such threads involving folks trying to figure out if the Takamatsuden 'ninpo' arts are koryu.

For the same reason there are no threads debating whether Chen Shi Taijiquan is legit CMA, but there are multiple page threads debating same re. Shaolin-do.

The point is - these issues could be clarified with ANY sort of evidence to support the idea that these 'ninpo' ryuha existed prior to Takamatsu. Mr. Hatsumi could have easily joined the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai as he wanted to - by simply providing said evidence.

That he hasn't produced this evidence means we must either:

- Take his word for it.

- Remain skeptics until some sort of evidence is produced.

I choose the latter - YMMV.

Blacktiger

08-20-2006, 11:50 PM

I dont think Frank Dux and Hatsumi are in the same basket -LOL

Samurai Jack

08-21-2006, 04:45 AM

I dont think Frank Dux and Hatsumi are in the same basket -LOL

They may both be ninjas, but Dux won the Kumite. I put my money on Dux.

Ninja stars are sweet.

Stranger

08-21-2006, 06:10 AM

So you're saying if Mr. Hatsumi wants to call himself a ninja, no-one other than himself is more qualified to assess the validity of his own statement? ookay.

He did not earn teaching credentials from two - all of his teaching credentials are from Takamatsu.

And Yumio Nawa was not a ninja - himself and every one of his students consistently stated that he was a ninjutsu historian. He was the soke of Masaki Ryu. Can you name any of these "many Japanese" who believe he was a master of ninjutsu? Besides which - he never gave Mr. Hatsumi any teaching credentials.

I guess I wasn't as clear as would have liked. What I meant (overall) was Hatsumi is skilled and his teachers were identified in their day as ninja. Who cares what he calls himself. What is a ninja today? If you teach martial arts and combine stealth, what is wrong with taking on the mantle? I mean some people act like monks, others act like samurai, why not a ninja? Everybody knows that even if both of Hatsumi's teachers were full blown combat blooded ninjas, he isn't teaching that stuff to Joe-student, so what does it matter? If I can learn from somebody than they have my attention. I don't know or care if Hatsumi teaches historically authentic ninjutsu.

Are you saying Hatsumi was not given teaching credential from Nawa or that Nawa was not a ninja?

Toshishiro Obata has been casting Nawa as a ninja in the West for a long time. If he is wrong or lying than what can I say? He says that Nawa didn't teach his material as ninjutsu but that the man was the most legit ninja of them all. Once again, what do I know. Obata seems to believe that NHK agrees with this.

You will never see me argue that the Bujinkan history is 100% or that all Bujinkan schools are amazing. I do find it funny that people go after the Bujinkan as the epitomy of frauds when BS is liberally sprinkled throughout MA, and the Bujinkan is not the worst culprit.

I had a teacher that once called himslef a "bushi". In reality he was a man that knew jujutsu. I ignored his chosen title and learned alot.

I believe the lectures that Takamatsu gave at the Kodokan were on kazushi, a little more dynamic than kappo techniques.

Regarding Hatsumi's lack of documentation....Hatsumi and Takamatsu at one point were not challenged on their word for better or worse. When asked documents were shown. These documents were housed in a museum. The museum caught fire and the documents were destroyed. Hatsumi and Takamatsu recreated the documents and scrolls from memory. Everybody comes out of the woodwork that has as an axe to grind and says,"No documents= not a real art." The fire is well recorded. The location of the documents was well recorded. The status of the oringinal is admitted. If there is an ounce of truth to what Hatsumi says, it can never be proven. There are a lot of arts that have no documented history or only partially documented history, most are left alone, why not the Bujinkan?

Consider too, Hatsumi might believe every word he says even if it were to be proven to be 100% false. Perhaps the deception goes back a generation earlier? How can we prove it did not?

If you think the fishy story invalidates all that could be learned from a talented guy like Hatsumi, than so be it.

Peace

Blacktiger

08-21-2006, 06:03 PM

If you think the fishy story invalidates all that could be learned from a talented guy like Hatsumi, than so be it.

Peace

Exactly !!!!!!!!!:D

Finny

08-21-2006, 06:19 PM

I guess I wasn't as clear as would have liked. What I meant (overall) was Hatsumi is skilled and his teachers were identified in their day as ninja. Who cares what he calls himself. What is a ninja today? If you teach martial arts and combine stealth, what is wrong with taking on the mantle? I mean some people act like monks, others act like samurai, why not a ninja?

The difference is - the folks that claim to teach 'samurai' arts (usually) have a legitimate lineage for their art. Monks have an ancient history. Descendents of Buke have a rich and extensive history. Koryu have a rich and extensive history

Are you saying Hatsumi was not given teaching credential from Nawa or that Nawa was not a ninja?

Both. Not saying anything about Obata, but as I said - everyone associated with Nawa, including the man himself, repeatedly stated that he was never taught or practised ninjutsu.

You will never see me argue that the Bujinkan history is 100% or that all Bujinkan schools are amazing. I do find it funny that people go after the Bujinkan as the epitomy of frauds when BS is liberally sprinkled throughout MA, and the Bujinkan is not the worst culprit.

I'm not saying that the Bujinkan is the epitomy of fraud - as I and others said earlier, Takamatsu was a legit expert in both Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Kukishin Ryu. The acts of others are no excuse.

Hatsumi's lack of documentation....Hatsumi and Takamatsu at one point were not challenged on their word for better or worse. When asked documents were shown. These documents were housed in a museum. The museum caught fire and the documents were destroyed. Hatsumi and Takamatsu recreated the documents and scrolls from memory. Everybody comes out of the woodwork that has as an axe to grind and says,"No documents= not a real art." The fire is well recorded. The location of the documents was well recorded. The status of the oringinal is admitted.

Not exactly.

Hatsumi wasn't around when the fire occured, and no-one had challenged Takamatsu to produce documentation because at the time, he was a practitioner of the two arts he legitimately dedicated his life to - HTYR and KTH.

Fire destroyed the Kuki family residence - destroying the Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho densho. Takamatsu reproduced them for the Kuki family.

Again - that is Kukishin Ryu, NOT anything to do with ninjutsu.

No-one disputes the fact that Takamatsu was an expert in Kukishin Ryu and Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu.

Consider too, Hatsumi might believe every word he says even if it were to be proven to be 100% false. Perhaps the deception goes back a generation earlier? How can we prove it did not?

If you think the fishy story invalidates all that could be learned from a talented guy like Hatsumi, than so be it.

Peace

Perhaps I wasn't clear - I never said anything about "invalidating all that could be learned" from Hatsumi.

I simply said - Hatsumi's ninjutsu arts have no historical verification and were likely a creation of Takamatsu. It sticks in my craw that with his outstanding marketing skills, and the popularity of his art, he is regarded by the mainstream as "the only legit ninjutsu guy" (as well as the offshoots of the Bujinkan)

His version of ninjutsu history is often the version you see in low-class popular martial arts books, and nearly everyone who gets interested in ninjutsu buys one of his books and takes him for a legit ninja.

I just like to present the alternative viewpoint - That his teacher was an expert teacher in two koryu - Hontai Yoshin Ryu and Kukishin Ryu - and may have seen or learned some others (Asayama Ichiden Ryu for example) that he passed on to Mr. Hatsumi.

But the 'ninjutsu' ryuha were most likely invented by Takamatsu.

Stranger

08-21-2006, 07:47 PM

Finny,

I seems like we are talking by each other. I am not saying that you said that everything about Hatsumi is worthless. It seemed like you were saying that I wrote somewhere that Hatsumi teaches koryu ninjutsu. In response I reexpressed my opinion, which seems to be like yours in this area. I, would add, that Hatsumi is not claiming to teach koryu style. He is pretty up front in his writing that he sees it as a living art that has to evolve or become only as relevant as SCA.

I was told a different story regarding the fire. I was told that it was Hatsumi's first ninja museum he opened, and he lost everything. I admit that I have no personal knowledge as to whether the burned out building I saw in the Japanese newspaper clipping was Hatsumi's museum, the museum you wrote about, or a building that has nothing to do with any of this.

Regarding Hatsumi and Nawa, once again I heard a different story. The version I heard was that Nawa gave Hatsumi teaching credentials, but when Hatsumi left the ryu he formerly asked (ordered?) Hatsumi to no longer teach the material, and Hatsumi agreed.

http://www.shinkendo.com/nawa.html

Obata wrote briefly about Nawa in "The Naked Blade" and referred to him as his instructor in ninjutsu, a ninjutsu 'more authentic than the modern schools known to the public' (to paraphrase). It might be that Nawa teaches something closed doors that enters the area of ninjutsu?

I know that the real koryu people have serious documentation and when they call themselves bushi it has some weight, my point was that many non-koryu schools also use these archaic class titles, yet they seem not to be targetted with as much frequency and venom.

Any way you slice it, neither of us is saying the Bujinkan's history is 100% fact. You say it is BS except for two ryu. I say it might be legit for two ryu, possibly more, but it is unprovable beyond the two.

We both say there is some skill possessed by Hatsumi (I believe quite a bit). We both say that not all of his students have benefitted from it (although some have).

You say Hatsumi's potentially false claims are a bad thing, I say "yeah", but I don't think one should mind too much if the tales are false and the history is off if your learning and having fun.

One last point for reasonable doubt...I know that all koryu schools possess historical documents, but what if one school didn't. Maybe it was a family art or secret art or maybe the documents were lost. Does this mean the art didn't exist in the past or does it mean that the art does not fit the common pattern of historical ryu practices? We assume the lack of documents means deception when in reality it might mean nothing. Hatsumi maybe cannot prove that his ninjutsu is ancient by our accepted standard, but is that enough to say is is 100% case closed?

Other "cool" arts with distorted/questionable or challenged histories: hsing-i, bagua, Daito ryu, serak, kali, baji, taichi, kuntao-silat, systema and on and on and on (not bad company in terms of fighting skill)

Legends, fables, and MA are often intertwined.

SevenStar

08-22-2006, 08:51 AM

I am not particularly interested in Judo or Kendo as they look fairly sports orientated and I would like to keep training in an unarmed style.

combat wise, you will get more from one year of judo than you will from several years of aikido and possibly aikijutsu as well. Don't overlook judo because it's a "sport".

Wood Dragon

08-22-2006, 03:32 PM

I feel it should be pointed out, again, that Hatsumi was a high-level Judoka prior to meeting Takematsu.

I've not seen many that will dispute Hatsumi's personal skill, merely the historical veracity of his claims.

My personal beef is that, much like Shotokan, the Bujinkan has lots of incompetent instructors who pass on their lack of skill, and give the organization a bad name. The overextended lunging-punch (being performed by people who should know better) I referenced is only one item.

Wood Dragon

08-22-2006, 03:36 PM

1) The long lunging punch is step one in the learning process. It gives lots of energy and offers a longer reaction time. .

Not even close.

1. The people I am criticizing are not beginners.

2. No one learns to strike like that, and no one attacks like that. Ergo, learning to defend against it is ludicrous, even for a basic introduction.

3. I've seen that technique used, along with other (even worse) stilted techniques, in demos by folks who should know better. To include Tai Kais (I went to the Atlanta TK).

4. Hatsumi and Nagato don't do it when they instruct. That alone should tell you something.

Stranger

08-22-2006, 08:03 PM

1. I said GOOD shihan would move passed this basic training. I did not say SENIOR or VETERAN shihan. It is irrelevant if you saw Bujinkan people that were not beginners doing this, becaue as I have already stated there are less skilled Bujinkan instructors out there. Ones that only train in the basic setting would fall under the banner of less skilled likely.

2. I have trained in numerous JMA styles where that is exactly like the punches, or other equally extended mechanics, fed to beginners .

3. A demo may have the intention of making a principle more apparent and may be done with bigger movements so the paying seminar attendees can pick up on the mechanics. Once you see the basic it is your duty to experiment. What is Hatsumi always urging, "variations on techniques" and "play with techniques until you really get them ingrained". It is called cognitive learning and in some circles is believed to produce much better results than traditional teaching. (just a theory, choose as you wish)

4. I have never seen Nagato, but I owned a video at one time with Hatsumi on it. The ukes attacking him punched this extended way at times but also mixed it up with tighter less telegraphed shots- once again variations and a progression towards greater challenges.