Questions for Knife Fighter

[hskwarrior]

As I was trying to have a conversation with you about forms it got lost in all the melee of the other thread.

i was trying to point out to you that just as boxing has preset moves strung together to shape vaious combo's, so does TCMA.

that is why we continuously train our basic punches. then we string them together to shape cetain combo's like Kwa Sow Chop which is a back fist to the nose, with a sweeping roundhouse arm strike which utilizes the wrist to about mid forearm and is primarily aimed at the neck, then we had the chop choy which is basically a boxer's jab just with more of TCMA flavor to it.

in our form (each and every one, and sometimes are repetitious) we have hand combinations ranging from 3-5 -7 handed combo's in our sets (forms).

see when practicing forms we work on posture, balance, proper weight distribution, focus, and so much more, work at the usage of the waist, while at the same time perfecting our techniques with various combo's.

practicing our forms allows us to learn to move in the manner craated by our gung fu ancestors. there are angles both linear and circular forward and reverse side to side diagnally and so on.

so while a shadow boxer visuaulizes himself throwing blows, dodging and weaving ducking etc. against an imaginary opponent, we in TCMA are doing the same thing. at least most of us are.

in one of my posts to you i said i feel you have never taken any TCMA in your life time, and if you did it must have been a bad experience. but if you were to delve into some proven effective TCMA i'm sure you would actually increase your knowledge and skill dramatically.

so am i correct in assuming that you never trained in any TCMA?

[hskwarrior]

now,

i attached a photo not for you to clown, but to see if you know what is happening in this techinque i posted up.

i know to you it may seem rediculous, but trust me there is more to that technique than meets the eye.

and trust me, i would never do it that way in a real situation, we have our live combat version of it as well. that pose is from a form of our choy lee fut.

pls choy lee fut people stay quiet for a minute, i want to see knife fighters answer.

[FatherDog]

and trust me, i would never do it that way in a real situation,

Then why do it that way in training?


we have our live combat version of it as well.

Then why not train it that way?

[hskwarrior]

father dog nice to meet you.

now to answer your questions......

why do it that way in training? becuase that what we do when we practice our forms.

why not train in it that way? who says we don't?

can you explain what i might be doing in that photo?

and TCMA has never claimed to execute form techniques in real life combat. you may misunderstand TCMA when you think of us doing forms. aside from forms have you ever trained with a TCMA-ist? have you ever seen how all schools of TCMA train to use the gung fu that was taught to them?

if you can't answer yes to these then understand the thread was meant for one person i.e. the name of questions for KNIFE FIGHTER

thanks

[hskwarrior]

also,

perhaps forms were meant to disguise the real techniques from outsiders who intend to steal what we teach?

[Knifefighter]

so am i correct in assuming that you never trained in any TCMA?
I trained Wing Chun for several years back in the day.

[hskwarrior]

father dog,

please don't take what i said negatively, i re-read it and thought it might sound rough a little. absorb my point instead.

thanks

[hskwarrior]

so what made you leave wing chun, and or do you still apply any wing chun material in what you do now?

then again wing chun basically has only 3 forms and personally i find those boring. effective but boring.

[Knifefighter]

and trust me, i would never do it that way in a real situation, we have our live combat version of it as well. that pose is from a form of our choy lee fut..
And therein lies one of the basic problems with forms... you practice them differently than you would actaully do them in a real situation.

As far as what is wrong with that pose, that would depend on what you are doing.
Are you doing a straight backfist to the face? If that is the case, that is a very low percentage, very low power move in a real fight.
Are you liftig your leg in preparation for a kick; or to avoid a kick; or to step into a back cross-step? There are a number of things wrong with the leg lift, depending on which of the previous things you are trying to acomplish.
I can see any number of structural problems, but it is hard to put it into context because there is no opponent for reference.

[Knifefighter]

perhaps forms were meant to disguise the real techniques from outsiders who intend to steal what we teach?
Great, that would make forms even more counterproductive than I already thoght they were.
Practicing something wrong to confuse people who might steal your techniques.

[Knifefighter]

so what made you leave wing chun, and or do you still apply any wing chun material in what you do now?
I felt there were other, more effective methods available.
I will occasionally use a few WC techniques in the context of groundfighting.

[hskwarrior]

you say counter productive....counter productive for who?

whats wrong with mastering something similar to a dance? most systems have them. that has nothing to do with actual fighting.

i see you point, forms we could do away with, but if we did we would lose over time many great keys and components within the forms. at this point of my teaching, i hold back on forms and focus strictly how to use the system effectively in real life combative life and death situations. yes i teach my students the right mind set to accomplish this as well.

but i don't understand why you are so against forms? if a boxer is doing a set of uppercuts, jab, jab jab, bob and weave, jab hook and so on repetitively it is in a sense of the word of forms. what are forms? a bunch of basic techniques strung together not only focusing with the hands, but the waist, direction, in other words we also have a very good lower body awareness.

so why complain about a martial art that practices forms? if its not what you do, don't get involved. unless you (not you directly) think you are invinceable or all knowledgable.

i mean i don't tell TAI CHI people to speed it up! its what they do. i have no place to say anything.

[Knifefighter]

so why complain about a martial art that practices forms? if its not what you do, don't get involved. unless you (not you directly) think you are invinceable or all knowledgable.
I think you've missed my point. I'm not complaining about what someone else does in their training. They can do whatever they want as far as I am concerned.
I'm debating the merits of using forms vs. more modern training methods for developing fighting abiltity.

[Knifefighter]

KF - same w/you - wrote a bunch of stuff I am curious about your opinion on - WTF, you can only polemicize (sp?), not reply to someone generally agreeing w/you? :)
Sorry, Chris, I thought a reply would just be superfluous since we seemed to be in general agreement. I thought your post was very good, although I did have one point of contention

I do think that techniques like "the hand in the air" that you mentioned from the infamous picture are similar to open end kinetic chain exercises and that there are better ways to practice them- more along the lines of closed chain.

[Knifefighter]

Chris-
I just read your stick post. I'll start a new thread to discuss it.

[Ou Ji]

I'm in agreement with KF, not on the value of forms but with doing the moves in forms exactly how they would be applied.

If your forms moves need to be modified to apply then just go ahead and make the modification in the form. (apparently it's wrong in the form or you're just not understand the app).

[FatherDog]

why do it that way in training? becuase that what we do when we practice our forms.


"Why do you do that?" "Because that's what we do."

That's not a real answer.



can you explain what i might be doing in that photo?


According to you, something you don't do when you fight.


and TCMA has never claimed to execute form techniques in real life combat.

Then why do you do them? Why train to do something the wrong way? Why train a punch in a way you won't throw it in a real fight?


aside from forms have you ever trained with a TCMA-ist? have you ever seen how all schools of TCMA train to use the gung fu that was taught to them?

I trained for a year in Wing Chun; picked up the first two forms. I still use fuk sao, bong and tan every so often, but mostly I don't find the techniques to be that useful in a real fighting context. I've sparred with some Wing Chun guys and a couple Choy Li Fut guys. The Choy Li Fut guys were better than the chunners.


whats wrong with mastering something similar to a dance?

Nothing. There's nothing wrong with mastering tennis, either. Neither of them will make you better at fighting, though.


if a boxer is doing a set of uppercuts, jab, jab jab, bob and weave, jab hook and so on repetitively it is in a sense of the word of forms. what are forms? a bunch of basic techniques strung together not only focusing with the hands, but the waist, direction, in other words we also have a very good lower body awareness.

The difference is that when a boxer does a set of uppercuts, jab bob and weave, he does them the same as he would in a real fight. Why are techniques done in forms done differently?

[hskwarrior]

you ask why are thing in forms done differently? you ask me when gung fu has been around for centuries?

do i care if someone doesn't lilke forms? no. if you don't like them don't push your opinion on my about it if i like them.

no one has ever said that we fight the way perform our forms.

father dog, do you know the choy lee fut hand techniques? do you know how to use them?

why do you assume we don' t practice our basic strikes just like boxers do? assuming only tells me you have little or no background in TCMA.

in regards to my photo no you don't know what i'm doing which could be a good number of things. to the untrained eye you see me standing on one leg, backfist to the nose with my ankle sitting on my knee.

but to the TCMA people they could pick out a number of things i'm doing.

to show you what i mean if the TCMA people want to put in their two cents on what i could be doing i'm now open to it.

[hskwarrior]

based on the photo i posted can either of you guess what i am doing in the photo? let's show the form haters why we love forms.


i will say that what you don't see is a knee stike, elbow strike or a sweep. but there is a block in there, a backfist.

why do we perform our forms differently than the way we use our stuff. is that it is what it is like it or not. no one said you had to like forms. if you don't like the forms then learn the striking side of the system. simple as that.

[FatherDog]

you ask why are thing in forms done differently? you ask me when gung fu has been around for centuries?

"It's been done that way for centuries" isn't a good answer, either. Are you going to answer the question or not? Why do you practice techniques differently than you acutally use them?

[hskwarrior]

who are these choy lee fut guys you sparred with? who was their teacher?

[hskwarrior]

the fact that we practice forms makes no difference when it comes to applications.

you assume that forms are a waste of time. we don't.

you have you way, we have ours.

there is no answer to why the forms are done differently or i'm just not wanting to give you the answer. either one.

but.....NO ONE EVER SAID WE FIGHT THE WAY WE PRACTICE FORMS, ONLY DUMB FOCKS WOULD THINK SO.

[hskwarrior]

I WILL BE THE FIRST TO SAY THAT FORMS WILL NOT INCREASE YOUR FIGHTING ABILITIES, BUT WITHIN THE FORMS ARE THE KEYS TO USING OUR SYSTEM.

YOU ARE UPSET WITH TCMA FOR VERY SILLY REASONS. FORMS.:confused:

DO FORMS REALLY IRK YOUR NERVES THAT BAD?

I JUST DON'T GET IT. WHO HAS EVER TRIED TO TELL YOU THAT BY LEARNING THE FORM YOU WILL AUTOMATICALLY BECOME A GREAT FIGHTER? YOU NEED TO ANSWER THAT FOR ME.

WE COULD GO ON FOR DAYS IN A SEMINAR TRYING TO TELL YOU WHY WE DO FORMS, BUT WOULD THAT REALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE TO THOSE WHO ARE BLIND TO THE TRUTH ANYWAY?

[hskwarrior]

Now That I Think About It, Its Really Funny That We Are Arguing Over Hand And Weapon Forms. Why Not Just Experiment With The System And Absorb What You Like From It And Move On.

There Will Always Be Forms Practice, And A Plentiful Of People Who Want To Learn Forms.

Its Only The Outsiders Who Always Think That Because We Don't Publicly Show The World How We Use Our Style That We Think We Become Masters Of Martial Arts By Performing Forms. that Is The Funniest Thing I've Ever Heard In My Life.

To Be Brutally Honest, If One Believes That Forms Are A True Depiction Of How A Specific Style Uses The Techniques Within That System, You Most Likely But Very Quietly Are Becoming The Laughing Stock In Tcma.

[FatherDog]

Four posts about how you don't fight like you do forms, and you still haven't answered the question - WHY DO YOU PRACTICE TECHNIQUES YOU DON'T USE WHEN YOU FIGHT?

[htowndragon]

forms train the "shen fa" body method, the transition steps, and a catalog of techinques to fight with. as well as some more, metaphysical? purposes.

train the individual techinques repetitively individually WILL increase ur fighting ability.

you cant have one wihtout the other and expect to use your system

[hskwarrior]

Htown,

Look, If They Don't Understand Then Let Them Sit In Their Own Ignorance.

I'm Tired Now, And Want To Get Some Sleep.


See, He Doesn't Realize That While We Perform The Form They Don't See Our Intent Behind The Moves Regardless If They Are In A Form Or Not.

Maybe The Question You Should Answer Is Why Do You Dislike Forms So Much. I Still Don't Completely Understand, I Think There's More To It Than You Reveal. Maybe Someting Deep Seeded.

[FatherDog]

Maybe The Question You Should Answer Is Why Do You Dislike Forms So Much. I Still Don't Completely Understand, I Think There's More To It Than You Reveal. Maybe Someting Deep Seeded.

Maybe the question you should answer is the one that I've asked you five times and you still haven't deigned to address.

[hskwarrior]

To Answer You Question To Why I Practice Forms.....


Because I Choose To. Plain And Simple. That Is My Peragotive. And I Excercise That Right. I DON''T NEED TO EXPLAIN WHY. BUT I'M NOT GOING TO TRY TO TEACH YOU THE IMPORTANCE OF FORMS, I DON'T EVEN KNOW YOU. FIGURE IT OUT YOURSELF.

When It Comes To Actually Fighting Someone I Have Our Training Methods, We Rely On Our Basic Strikes. We String Them Naturally Based On Each Individual Instance.

But Like All Human Beings We Have Good Days And We Have Bad Days. Some Win Some Lose. No One Is Any Worse Of A Fighter Or More Of A Fighter For Wanting To Practice Forms.

Why Do You Think Forms Have Existed For So Long? If No One Found Any Value In Them They Would Be Tossed To The Curb And Left Behind.

It Is Extremely Foolish To Believe The Hype About Forms Being Useless.

Plain And Simple If You Don't Like Forms Don't Practice Them. But Why Ridicule Others For Their Personal Choice To Practice Forms. No One Claims Thats How We Fight. So Whats The Real Problem Here?

[hskwarrior]

Also, Forms Is Just The Old Traditional Method Of Training.

So Now That I've Answered You, Answer Me. Don't Duck It.

Whats Your Problem With Forms? Were Your Form Neglected In The Past? Have A Form Deficiency? I Mean Whats The Deal?

[hskwarrior]

why Should Someone Practice Forms?

Why Not?

what Does It Hurt?

Nothing.

will Practicing Forms Make You An Incredible Fighter?

Not At All. No.

what Will Practicing Forms Teach You?

Movement, Direction, Execution Of Comb's In Different Angles. Works On Coordination. Gives Insight Into How Certain Moves Are Properly Executed.

Perhaps The Practice Of Forms Was To Practice Your Techniques With Lethal Striking Mentality And Will Not Injure Anyone But The Air. But You Strike With The Kill Mentality. If You Did This With A Live Person You May Lose A Friend, Or Practice Partner.

There Are Many Reasons People Practice Forms. Exercise For One.

Still I Ask, Why Ridicule Us For Doing What We Choose To Do, NO ONE IS RIDICULING YOU FOR WHAT YOU'RE DOING?

[Knifefighter]

This whole debate about forms was basically whether or not they were efficient in making one a better fighter based on modern training principles. Based on what hsk is saying it sounds like the answer in no.
BTW, I have no problem with people using outdated training techniques, as long as it's not me practicing that way.

[Green Cloud]

Hey frank who said that they too several years of wing chung oh yea it was knife fighter. I never herd of anyone taking a few years of wing chung and knowing anything about it or being good at it. It certainly doesn't make you an authority on this subject.

One word Frank, or maybee it's several words to sum these guys up. Jack of all trades master of none. Youre trying to debate with guys that are not profecient at any style. That's a waste of time.

Let them think what they want. Remember you can't force feed enlightenment.

[hskwarrior]

True.

I Tried To Call You Just Now But Went To Your Voice Mail.

But Im Going To Bed Now.

Call You Tomorrow.

Laters.


Frank

[Knifefighter]

Hey frank who said that they too several years of wing chung oh yea it was knife fighter. I never herd of anyone taking a few years of wing chung and knowing anything about it or being good at it. It certainly doesn't make you an authority on this subject.
I'm not arguing the lack of merits of forms based on several years of WC training. I am basing based on my background in exercise science.


One word Frank, or maybee it's several words to sum these guys up. Jack of all trades master of none. Youre trying to debate with guys that are not profecient at any style. That's a waste of time.
Black belt BJJ/USA kickboxing competition team/multiple titles in advanced open grappling competitions/25 years stickfighting- if that makes one a jack of all trades and master of none... OK, whatever you say.

BTW, one could make a strong argument that being a jack of all trades is better than being a master of one when it comes to fighting, but that would be another thread.

[hskwarrior]

Knife Fighter,

Maybe It Can Be Sufficed To Say That Forms Can Be Equated To Skipping Rope. Its For Some People And Not For Others. Basically What You Said.

But Would I Say Forms Are Completely Useless, No. Not At All.

And I Agree, It Will Not Make Us The Ultimate Fighter, But It Is A Good Stress Reliever When You Had A Hard Day At Work Or Depressed. So Can Be Said About Hitting The Bag.

But Because We Practice Forms Doesn't Negate Us As Fighters.

See What I Mean.?

[hskwarrior]

When It Comes To The Argument Of Jack Of All Trades Some See The Cup As Half Empty As Others Will See It As Half Full.

[hskwarrior]

Maybe We Should Take This Thread To A Close Then Knife Fighter.

As Long As You Realize That We Feel The Same Way About Forms Knowing It Won't Increase Your Fighting Abilities, Its Not The Way We Use It In Combat.

Remember.....skipping Rope.

[Knifefighter]

Remember.....skipping Rope.
Umm... I don't skip rope.

[hskwarrior]

You Don't Practice Forms Either Do You?;)

[Mr Punch]

Why do you practice techniques differently than you acutally use them?

To Answer You Question To Why I Practice Forms...This looks such fun! Can anyone join in?! :D

Frank, I practise wing chun. Most wing chun techs from the forms are used in that way in fighting...

As you said, boring but effective.

Why do you practise things differently to how you would use them?:confused:

You seem to think Father Dog is giving you some kind of test or some metaphysical koan... well, there are of course a couple of positions and moves in wing chun forms that we don't use in fighting, and we do have other reasons for doing them. So, I'm genuinely interested: why do you train in a way you don't use in fighting?

I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours!;)

[FatherDog]

Also, Forms Is Just The Old Traditional Method Of Training.

So Now That I've Answered You, Answer Me. Don't Duck It.

Whats Your Problem With Forms? Were Your Form Neglected In The Past? Have A Form Deficiency? I Mean Whats The Deal?

I don't have a problem with forms at all. I have a problem with people practicing moves that they won't use in a fight.

If you do every move in your form the way you would in a fight, then yes, you are doing essentially the same thing a boxer does when he shadowboxes, and that's fine - it's a great way of training.

But you say that the moves you do in your form are /not/ the way you'd do them in a fight. So why do you do them that way? Why practice something the wrong way?

You still haven't answered that question.

[MasterKiller]

But you say that the moves you do in your form are /not/ the way you'd do them in a fight. So why do you do them that way? Why practice something the wrong way?.

Form movements are generally over-empahsized and stylized in order to ingrain larger ROM than you would need in a fight, the idea being if you can kick really high in form, you should have no problem kicking low in a fight, especially since you won't have the same muscle control after an adrenaline dump.

Also, some movements are just tweaked for exercise-sake.

[hskwarrior]

WHY PRACTICE THE FORM UNLIKE THE WAY I TRAIN TO FIGHT WITH IT.

THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT ARE COMPLETELY CLUELESS TO FIGHTING. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT PROFESSIONAL, I'M TALKING ABOUT SURVIVAL.
SO SOME PEOPLE TRAIN IN FORMS FOR COMPETITION. i HAVE NEVER TRAINED TO COMPETE IN FORMS. I WOULD JUST WAKE UP AND DECIDE AN HOUR OR TWO IF I WANT TO SEE HOW I'D DO. I NEVER THOUGHT I WOULD WIN. BUT I HAVE WON A FEW TROPHIES FOR FORMS (1ST AND 2ND PLACE).

BUT WHEN I PRACTICE FORMS AS THEY HAVE BEEN PASSED DOWN TO US FROM OUR ELDERS, I AM NO ONE TO CHANGE THAT. ITS NOT MY PLACE TO SAY WE SHOULD STOP PRACTICING FORMS BECAUSE THEY ARE USELESS. BUT IF YOU ARE A FIGHTER YOU WOULD PRACTICE THE TECHNIQUES IN THE FORM AS IF YOU WERE TRYING TO HURT THE PERSON.

SOME PEOPLE DON'T LOOK AT THEIR TCMA AS A FORM OF LIFE AND DEATH SURVIVAL AND OFTEN SHUN THOSE THAT TAKE THEIR ART SERIOUSLY AS THUGS, AND GANGSTERS. THEY OFTEN FALL TO THE ESOTERIC SIDE OF TCMA, AND BELIEVE THAT FORMS ARE A SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE.

WHY I PERSONALLY LIKE TO PRACTICE FORMS IS BECAUSE OF THE WAY THEY ARE SET UP. ITS LIKE TAKING AN ENGINE AND TRYING TO TAKE IT APART SO YOU CAN PUT IT BACK TOGETHER AGAIN. WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DO THAT? YOU HAVE A GREATER UNDERSTANDING OF THAT ENGINE AND HOW IT WORKS.

BASICALLY FORMS ARE A GOOD TOOL TO UNDERSTAND HOW YOUR GUNG FU WORKS. MUCH LIKE THAT WAY bjj HAS THEIR MARTIAL ART DOWN TO A SCIENCE.
YOU TURN ONE WAY THEY HAVE A COUNTER, YOU MOVE ANOTHER THEY HAVE AN ANSWER FOR THAT. WELL, FORMS FOR US IS THE TWIN MARTIAL SCIENCE TO HOW bjj DEVELOPS THEIR STUFF.

MANY OF OUR HAND COMBINATIONS ARE FOUND IN FORMS. IN MANY SCHOOLS NOT ALL OF THE COMBO'S ARE TAUGHT TO THE STUDENTS. IT WAS UP TO US TO FIGURE OUT THE FORMS. AFTER FIGURING OUT THE FORM WE PUT TO USE THE TECHNIQUES.

IT ALWAYS STARTS OUT LIKE THIS....."SIFU, HOW DO WE USE THIS TECHNIQUE?" HE THEN SHOWS US, AND THEN WE PRACTICE HOW TO USE IT. BUT OUR SIFU'S EXPECTED US TO PRACTICE OUR FORMS. HE ALSO EXPECTED US TO KEEP PRACTICING HOW TO USE THEM AS WELL.

SOMETIMES PRACTICING THEM THE WAY THEY WERE PASSED ON TO US SHOW "us" EXACTLY HOW FAR THE TECHNIQUE NEEDS TO GO, WHAT TO EMPHASIZE AND WHAT TO NOT.

IN THAT PHOTO I POSTED OF MYSELF " ONE " OF THE APPLICATIONS IS MY LEFT HAND BLOCKS A PUNCH WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY LANDING THE BACK FIST TO THE NOSE AND SWEEPING OUT THE PERSONS FROM LEG CAUSING HIM TO LOSE HIS BALANCE AND THE FORCE OF THE BLOW SENDS HIM CRASHING TO THE FLOOR.

A LOT OF THE FORMS HAVE FANCY MOVEMENTS, BUT TO THE TRAINED FIGHTER WE KNOW THAT THE FANCY SHET DON'T WORK. IN OUR SCHOOL WE MODIFY EVERYTHING WE FEEL THAT MAY NOT WORK TO MAKE IT WORK.

STILL YOU SAY YOU DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH FORMS, BUT WHO ARE "YOU" TO SAY THAT "WE" ARE PRACTICING OUR GUNG FU WRONG BY PRACTICING FORMS? IF WE ARE WRONG IN YOUR EYES, WHY NOT JUST LET US BE WRONG? YOU ARE NOT TRYING TO BECOME MARTIAL ARTS JESUS ARE YOU? BECAUSE IT SEEMS THAT YOU WANT TO SAVE US FROM OUR MISERY?

[hskwarrior]

But,

What Is So Wrong About Practicing Forms?

If We Were To Extract To Sets Of Combo's From Forms And Practice Those Combo's Just Like Any Good Fighter Would, Then What's Wrong With Practing A Form That Has Combination After Combination Going On In Various Angles Directions And Often Geared Towards Stand Up Fighting Against Muliple Attackers?

I Teach My Students Forms, But I Teach Them How To Use The Techniques From The Forms Too. Guess What, They Look More Real Than Someone Practcing The Form For Exercise. Although I Teach Forms To My Students You Can't Say For Sure They Are Useless Because Of My Students Being Victorious In Real Life And Death Altercations. If It Weren't For The Gung Fu I Taught Them They Would Be Dead.

I Will Post A Picture Next Of My Student And The Guy He Was With When They Got Into This Altercation. You Will See That My Student Was Basically Un Injured While His Friend's Face Was Destroyed. I'm Confident That What I Teach Works. Regardless If We Practice Forms.

[hskwarrior]

Attached Are Two Photo's.

The First One Titled Tony, Is My Students Friend Who Got Jumped With My Student. As You Can See They Did A Nice Job On This Guys Nose. The Doctor Said It Was So Bad That Part Of His Septum Disappeared.

The Second One Is Of Tyler My Student And His Friend Tony After I Took Them Home From The Hospital That Night. Tyler's Hand Is Wrapped Up Because He Fractured His Fingers Blocking A Kick From A 315 Lb Student Of Mine. But Look Close, Tyler Has No Marks On Him From The Fight At All. Comes To Show Who Wasn't A Good Fighter And Who Was.

And Yes, I Taught Tyler Forms As Well.

FORGIVE TYLER IN THE PHOTO, I KNOW THEY LOOK HELLA GAY, BUT THEY WERE STILL PRETTY DRUNK.

[MasterKiller]

BUT WHEN I PRACTICE FORMS AS THEY HAVE BEEN PASSED DOWN TO US FROM OUR ELDERS, I AM NO ONE TO CHANGE THAT. ITS NOT MY PLACE TO SAY WE SHOULD STOP PRACTICING FORMS BECAUSE THEY ARE USELESS.


IN OUR SCHOOL WE MODIFY EVERYTHING WE FEEL THAT MAY NOT WORK TO MAKE IT WORK.

That's a bit contradictory, don't you think?

[hskwarrior]

But How Is That Contradictory?

[MasterKiller]

Who are you to modify techniques that were passed down from your elders?

If you teach forms simply because your elders knew better, then how can you justify modifying techniques that your elders passed down as well?

[hskwarrior]

you're twisting my words.

who am i to modify what our elders passed down to us just to make it work for each and every single individual? a pioneer. a person with enough foresight to take the material out of its original context and shape it to meet my or my students needs.

if you think that the forms will make you the best fighter then quit TCMA and try something else.

most of us agree that techniques found in the forms or trying to use the techniques found in forms need to be modified. I agree with the modernization of TCMA by placing more focus on the fighting aspect.

but just because i modify the usage of techniques found in forms to make it work for me, whats your problem with that? i never said i changed the form. only how to apply whats in it.

the way you are questioning me i think you may be one of those 98%'ers.

who am i he asks?!>?!?!:rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

So you are pioneer enough to change techniques, but not pioneer enough to modify forms?


who am i he asks?!>?!?!

I just used your exact phrasing.

My point is that you say you practice forms because you aren't in a position to question the training of your elders, but at the same time you admit their technqiues need to be modified and updated. So if you can modify their techniques, why can't you question their forms usage?

[hskwarrior]

oh yeah,

teaching forms because our elders know better are your words not mine.

and if you think the forms works the same for every single person whether 7 and a half feet tall, or 3 foot 4 inches, you done lost your mind son.

a form is just the blueprint. showing you the layout of the foundation, the walls, the support system and so on. it is truly up to the student to take what he learned and make it work for him. if i do a technique at my own eye level, and then have to fight a guy thats 6'7".......if i was to use the techniques as they were taught to me i would only be striking this guy in his chest when the tech's were intended as head shots. so because i am fighting a guy way bigger than me what am i supposed to do?

what i am going to do is modify my usage of the tech's to make it work for me. simple as that. like it or not. go to someone else to learn if you don't like my way of teaching.

plain and simple.

if you still disagree then you are lost.

[hskwarrior]

of course thats what im saying.

I would be stupid to think and my elders would be stupid to think that using forms during a fight is a wise thing to do. and if thats what my elders thought, then shame on them.
f

to your last question, is because i like the combinations found in the forms. then i take them out and practice them individually. i modify them to fit my specific needs, because no elder ever thought that what they started would ever go this far, nor can speak for people they have never met.

all blueprints can be modified from its original plan.

[hskwarrior]

plus i think forms of realistic fighting with bobbing and weaving ducking and dodging would look pretty silly in a form format.

but if thats what you want to do, go right ahead.


i'll be wathching.

[MasterKiller]

teaching forms because our elders know better are your words not mine.


Originally Posted by hskwarrior
BUT WHEN I PRACTICE FORMS AS THEY HAVE BEEN PASSED DOWN TO US FROM OUR ELDERS, I AM NO ONE TO CHANGE THAT. ITS NOT MY PLACE TO SAY WE SHOULD STOP PRACTICING FORMS BECAUSE THEY ARE USELESS.

Nope. Your words all the way.

[Ou Ji]

I said it before and I'll say it again. If the moves in the form are different than your app for them then the form is either 1. wrong, in which case you correct it OR 2. you arent doing the right app for the move, in which case you need to figure it out or ask or go back to #1.

Oh, I guess there's a #3, you learned BS.

[Knifefighter]

Form movements are generally over-empahsized and stylized in order to ingrain larger ROM than you would need in a fight, the idea being if you can kick really high in form, you should have no problem kicking low in a fight...
It would be much more efficient to train in the ROM that you would be using in the real activity.

[Knifefighter]

BASICALLY FORMS ARE A GOOD TOOL TO UNDERSTAND HOW YOUR GUNG FU WORKS. MUCH LIKE THAT WAY bjj HAS THEIR MARTIAL ART DOWN TO A SCIENCE.
YOU TURN ONE WAY THEY HAVE A COUNTER, YOU MOVE ANOTHER THEY HAVE AN ANSWER FOR THAT. WELL, FORMS FOR US IS THE TWIN MARTIAL SCIENCE TO HOW bjj DEVELOPS THEIR STUFF.
There is absoulutely no comparison to dancing around like a bug and punching in the air to what we do in BJJ.

[Knifefighter]

If We Were To Extract To Sets Of Combo's From Forms And Practice Those Combo's Just Like Any Good Fighter Would, Then What's Wrong With Practing A Form That Has Combination After Combination Going On In Various Angles Directions And Often Geared Towards Stand Up Fighting Against Muliple Attackers?
What % of your training time do you spend practicing forms?
What % of your training time do you spend doing drills with a partner?
What % of your training time do you spend hitting some kind of apparatus at full power?
What % of your training time do you spend doing light sparring?
What % of your training time do you spend doing hard sparring?

[hskwarrior]

you twist my words again.

i never said bjj jumps around punching in the air now did i?

[Knifefighter]

The Second One Is Of Tyler My Student And His Friend Tony After I Took Them Home From The Hospital That Night. Tyler's Hand Is Wrapped Up Because He Fractured His Fingers Blocking A Kick From A 315 Lb Student Of Mine. But Look Close, Tyler Has No Marks On Him From The Fight At All. Comes To Show Who Wasn't A Good Fighter And Who Was.
Might it also be that Tyler is significantly bigger than his friend?
Kind of coincidental that Tyler has a BRAND NEW cast on his hand, that just happend to have come from a workout with another student.

[Knifefighter]

you twist my words again.

i never said bjj jumps around punching in the air now did i?
No, you were comparing your forms to the science of BJJ.
The jumping around like a bug was based on your forms picture.

[Knifefighter]

who am i to modify what our elders passed down to us just to make it work for each and every single individual? a pioneer. a person with enough foresight to take the material out of its original context and shape it to meet my or my students needs.
But you already said you don't modify the forms because that's the way they were passed down from the elders.
So, you are saying it's OK to modify some things but not others?

[hskwarrior]

actually tyler never got hit. the bandage is from a jammed finger resulting from a kick. the guys who jumped them were pretty big guys who could care less if they kill you.

so believe what you want, but a day or two prior to them getting jumped, the finger jam happend. what would i have to lie for? proof is in the pudding and tyler was never injured from being jumped. and size has nothing to do with it.

he got jumped again by the same guys who this time brought knives and screwdrivers because they knew he wasn't a push over.

[Knifefighter]

plus i think forms of realistic fighting with bobbing and weaving ducking and dodging would look pretty silly in a form format.
It also looks pretty stupid to be posing like a dying bug. Lots of fighting looks stupid, just look at the BJJ guard. But, that's the reality of fighting. And the reality of training is that the best way to train is to get as close as you can to the real thing.

[hskwarrior]

what im saying is that its okay to modify usage, not the blue print.

whats so hard to understand?

[hskwarrior]

and your telling me as if i don't know this because of why?:confused:

[Knifefighter]

he got jumped again by the same guys who this time brought knives and screwdrivers because they knew he wasn't a push over.
Six guys with knives and screwdrivers?
WOW!!! You must be turning out some incredibly awesome guys up there.
Either that, or there are some real pansies running around with blades in SF.

[hskwarrior]

so what really what is the purpose of debating whether forms are good for fighting or not?

if you don't want to learn forms then don't? no one wants to explain why you want to ridicule someone who likes to perform forms.

you outsiders are so obsessed with us performing forms. would you prefer that we didn't and why?

you are an apple we are oranges. some are white and some are black.

i just don't get why forms really irk your nerves.:confused:

you guys don't think you are here to convert tcma by your rantings of hate towards forms, do you?

[hskwarrior]

you don't have to believe me old man. why do you think i need to prove anything to you?

what do you say when you learn that what i said is the complete truth? would you dispute the eye witnesses that told me what my student used in this encounter?

if you would dispute the eye witnesses because you just don't believe shet, then we are done here and your mind is closed off to everything except your little world.

for you to doubt so much, it makes me think you doubt your own skills.

[hskwarrior]

this guy,

knife fighter either you have never in your life handled a life threatening situation like that in your existance, or you are full of shet yourself. but you are nothing but a grain of sand. its funny how you must think i told that story for whatever reasons your little mind comes up with. whatever it is.....its wrong

[Knifefighter]

what do you say when you learn that what i said is the complete truth? would you dispute the eye witnesses that told me what my student used in this encounter?.
For the same reason I don't believe the e-mail that tells me I can make millions by simply sending my bank information and SSS# to help a "royal family" flee from Liberia.

Because the claim is outlandish and I would have to be pretty guillible to take it at face value.

Six guys with knives and screwdrivers who were trying to kill him? Come on... the chances are pretty high that someone is getting their story messed up there.

[Ou Ji]

It would be much more efficient to train in the ROM that you would be using in the real activity.

You train beyond the ROM used because you kick, or hit, past or through your target. You don't stop at the surface. For a groin kick you focus the kick up to the head.

When you punch the face you focus hitting to the back of the head.

[hskwarrior]

exackery:D

[Knifefighter]

knife fighter either you have never in your life handled a life threatening situation like that in your existance, or you are full of shet yourself.
It's the very reason that I HAVE been in those types of situations that I doubt it.

Six guys with knives and screwdrivers who were trying to kill him and he came away unharmed.

Hmmm....

[hskwarrior]

would you like me to post a picture of the stab wounds my student has?

would that make you feel a little better.

hey, i don't care if you don't believe it. you are as fake as you think the story is.

[Ou Ji]

No, you were comparing your forms to the science of BJJ.
The jumping around like a bug was based on your forms picture.

I don't mean to be picking on you but when have you seen a bug pose on one leg?

Usually the bug reference is used to insult Mantis practitioners and I don't think Frank does any Mantis.

[hskwarrior]

i'll even tell you the wounds were in his belly, side of his belly, and one right along side the peck. if you knew anything about that strike it is meant to kill you.

you are full of bs, you have never in your life been in a real life situation like that and you know it.

[PangQuan]

i just don't get why forms really irk your nerves.:confused:

ive noticed that on average, people who ridicule the method of using sets, dont truly understand them or the benefits that they do provide.

they will swear up and down that they know all about it, but its obvious they dont.

its obvious that they know more about everthing than thousands of people who have used this method and have used it to kill in actual combat, not just sport. :rolleyes:

just so you know, it will never stop.

[hskwarrior]

you're still clueless to what i was saying. but thats cool. ignorance is bliss.

you may be old but how's your eyesight?

where did i say my student never got harmed in the knife attack?

the picture i posted is of the first jumpng.

you're still clueless even when i give you the clues.

[Knifefighter]

You train beyond the ROM used because you kick, or hit, past or through your target. You don't stop at the surface. For a groin kick you focus the kick up to the head.

When you punch the face you focus hitting to the back of the head.
Hitting past or through the target is completely different than kicking higher than your target.

First of all, you are doing the exact thing you are supposed to do during the fight. Hit through the opponent. Completely different that kicking higher than you are supposed to during the fight.

Secondly, when you hit through the target, there actually is a target there to give you the real feedback you need for training. When you kick higher than the target in a form, there isn't even a target in the first place. Even if there was, you would have missed it.

[hskwarrior]

this old man is senile.


where do you see me jumping around doing my forms in a still picture?


whew.:confused:

[hskwarrior]

thats why i like talking to tcma people. we understand each other even when we differ.

but unlike these non tcma folks we are not brainwashed against what we do.

thanks panquan

[Ou Ji]

And exactly how high are you "supposed" to kick in a real fight?

My answer? As high as necessary to get the job done. Since it's unknown I'll practice higher than what I think the max will ever be just to play it safe.

Now, what are the drawbacks to practicing a kick higher than you will ever use?

Got me.

[Knifefighter]

this old man is senile.
you don't have to believe me old man.
Funny, how the out-of-shape, fat guy starts resorting to name-calling again.

[Knifefighter]

Now, what are the drawbacks to practicing a kick higher than you will ever use?
The drawback is that it is using training time to teach a motor movement that is different from the one you want to use for real. This essentially "confuses" your neuromotor pathways.

[PangQuan]

i practice lots of high kicks.

would i try to throw a high kick in a fight. no. not unless it was totally safe.

but then why do i practice them? a high kick will make a low kick better.

if your able to build the strength to put a kick up six feet with great speed. it improves your low kicks.

im waste down kicker, sept for the heel kick to the solar ever now and then.

superficiality will impede your knowledge of the un seen.

[Knifefighter]

where do you see me jumping around doing my forms in a still picture?
Ummm... it was a joke, son. Kind of like the ****phobic antigrappler bunch who make jokes about dry humping on the ground when referencing ground fighting.

However, that "pose" is about as effective as a dead bug.

[Ou Ji]

The drawback is that it is using training time to teach a motor movement that is different from the one you want to use for real. This essentially "confuses" your neuromotor pathways.

I'll still have to disagree with you. As I see it it's the same motor movement just extended. Why should I train holding the kick back by forcing it to stop at a set level?

Personally I think you're nitpicking and it's reached the point where you will not cave in the least, either out of pride or stubborness, so we'll just leave it where it is. We both expressed our thoughts and supporting reasons.

[Knifefighter]

but then why do i practice them? a high kick will make a low kick better..
About as much as running a marathon will help your 100 meter run time.

[PangQuan]

knife fighter

i did not look at the picture of the form, but likely it implicates several applications at once.

you need to pick one application then adapt it to a live format and understand the representation within the form to do this.

[Knifefighter]

Why should I train holding the kick back by forcing it to stop at a set level?
You shouldn't be holding it back, you should be kicking through the target with great force and speed.

However, kicking higher than you ever will do when it's "for real" will make the real deal less effective than if you had been training all your kicks there in the first place.

It's just about the first rule of human performance training.... specific adaptations to applied demands.

[PangQuan]

but it still helps.

you ever been kicked in the head by a professional?

it hurts alot more than a punch. legs are much stronger. if the opportunity presents itself for a high kick, but you cannot perform. you lost a golden. so we practice them for that opportunity, whilst at the same time our low kicks recieve a very small benefit. but a benefit none the less is what now? a benefit. this is part of the chinese thought process you do not understand.

its the whole picture, dont be so focul you must use your periphrial mind.


time to go home, i had fun all. see you in a few days...

[Knifefighter]

knife fighter

i did not look at the picture of the form, but likely it implicates several applications at once.

you need to pick one application then adapt it to a live format and understand the representation within the form to do this.
Again, another reason why forms are less than effective for training. As some have already said, you should not have to "pick out" applications. They should be readily apparent.

If you are talking about training three different applications at the same time, one of which you have to "pick out", then you are talking about an even higher level of inefficiency of training time.

[Knifefighter]

you ever been kicked in the head by a professional?

it hurts alot more than a punch. legs are much stronger. if the opportunity presents itself for a high kick, but you cannot perform. you lost a golden. so we practice them for that opportunity, whilst at the same time our low kicks recieve a very small benefit. but a benefit none the less is what now? a benefit. this is part of the chinese thought process you do not understand.
There's nothing wrong with training high kicks if you are throwing high kicks... in fact, it is mandatory.

My point was for the person who claimed to be training high kicks to make low kicks better.

[Ou Ji]

However, kicking higher than you ever will do when it's "for real" will make the real deal less effective than if you had been training all your kicks there in the first place.

Ok, your opponent doubles over from a midsection attack (kick, punch, knee, whatever) and now you have the opportunity for a full on rising kick to the head for a KO.

Just as you start the kick he falls over and you miss. Where does the kick end? At the level of his head when doubled over or somewhere in the area his head would be standing? If you're kicking through your target it the latter.

[Knifefighter]

Ok, your opponent doubles over from a midsection attack (kick, punch, knee, whatever) and now you have the opportunity for a full on rising kick to the head for a KO.

Just as you start the kick he falls over and you miss. Where does the kick end? At the level of his head when doubled over or somewhere in the area his head would be standing? If you're kicking through your target it the latter.
And if that is the type of kick you are training for, that is what you shold be doing.

But if that happens .05% of the time and you are training high kicks 50% of the time, your training is less than efficient.

[fiercest tiger]

Forms suck! TCMA somewhere lost its combative nature and most masters added more forms to keep students and to make more money. If you cant fight with a few strikes then you cant fight with all those forms, comparing to a boxer or MMA fighter cause thats all they do.

I for one have given up on forms and the only thing i like is the internal chi cultivation of qi kung and the rest i roll and spar, do workouts which train you better then any forms IMHO.

Forms are only good if you want to learn the ART of kung fu and pass on the next generation. This does not mean you cant be a good fighter even if you do forms but some people are naturally gifted fighters with no martial arts experience.

all the best
FT

[hskwarrior]

fiercest tiger,

if forms suck then why are you still practicing yau kung mun?

[fiercest tiger]

Hi,

I only do my chi kung form now of YKM which is not bak mei within YKM its the true YKM system which is slow moving meditation. I also do submission grappling taken from my internal system which is a clinch and grappling system. So my training consist of only qi kung and sparring like MMA but YKM type MMA.

The rest of my system i dont train anymore due to personal reasons, but i prefer to have the sparring, pad workouts, ball training, chi kung, and ground fighting for my health and longevity. I dont need 30 hand forms to train or to fight i only need a few strikes and submissions. So i think that the forms are not worth training unless its chi kung which is a great balance with the Sparring and workouts.

regards
Garry

[hskwarrior]

garry i agree.

out of the whole choy lee fut sysyet i only practice the basics. all i need is a good form with a lot of great combinations and sifu that can direct me thru it all. a true fighter can see at first glance if something is for show or if the form has some legitimate techniques.

i love the basics of choy lee fut. i also love when you reach that level when you don't have to think about what to do and just do it and reminisce on what you did.

the sow choy is one of choy lee fut bread and butter techniques. but we have some great upper cuts, elbows, knees, as well as other strong hand techniques. when i train my students to fight, it is these that i train them on. we don't won't ever claim to fight with forms. but within the forms are the combo's (i know i repeated myself) so we take those combo's and work the bag, spar using those techniques, soft spar, but we almost never spar full blast because some of the techniques we have can seriously or even gravely injure your partner. so we train the best we could.

when you reach that point when you can freestyle your gung fu effortlessly you have already shed the routine of forms. that is why we always go back to basics and retrain all over again. it may sound silly, but it is a path many martial artists take.

i'm on tramadol right now so im tired.

peace.

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Bro,

CLF has some awesome circular techniques, powerful too.....like you said the seeds of the art is the truest of all and thats what its based on.

Forms can can be a burden my friend, they stop you from evolving into your own way of fighting, its all about progression my friend!

all the best mate...

Garry

[Reality_Check]

Garry,

Your comments are very interesting, and I respect your willingness to alter your training to suit your beliefs. However, I have some questions for you, if you are willing to answer. Do you teach your students forms? If so, why?

Regards,

RC

[SevenStar]

I'll still have to disagree with you. As I see it it's the same motor movement just extended. Why should I train holding the kick back by forcing it to stop at a set level?


His point with the forms is that since you are not training the techniques exactly as they should be performed, then you are at least wasting SOME degree of time, as you have to learn the technique "the forms way", then learn it "the application way". take the technique "shoot the bow", for example. one application of it is a fireman's carry. But, it's not an exact duplication of the fit in for a fireman's - you have to modify it. Now, you must (for lack of a better term) clutter your mind with multiple ways to perform this technique when you really shouldn't have to.

[SevenStar]

you need to pick one application then adapt it to a live format and understand the representation within the form to do this.


that's exactly what he's talking about - you shouldn't have to adapt...

[Green Cloud]

I agree to disagree just don't give me the third degree:eek:

[SevenStar]

Forms suck! TCMA somewhere lost its combative nature and most masters added more forms to keep students and to make more money. If you cant fight with a few strikes then you cant fight with all those forms, comparing to a boxer or MMA fighter cause thats all they do.

I for one have given up on forms and the only thing i like is the internal chi cultivation of qi kung and the rest i roll and spar, do workouts which train you better then any forms IMHO.

Forms are only good if you want to learn the ART of kung fu and pass on the next generation. This does not mean you cant be a good fighter even if you do forms but some people are naturally gifted fighters with no martial arts experience.

all the best
FT


thank you.

[Ou Ji]

Well my point, as far as the kick goes, is that it is eactly the same as how it would be used.

The 'shoot the bow'/fireman's carry is a nice example but it's a variation of the move in the form. Obviously the form isn't meant to portray all variations and possibilities. In this case if it isn't exact then that use was probably not what was intended when the form was created.

Personally I think a lot of the variations and alternate uses came AFTER the creation of the style and the forms. The forms were created with a specific use for the move and that's how it's portrayed. If you find other uses and variations then that's a plus.

There should never be a form way and application way. There's a form way and form way application, then there are variations and alternate uses for the form way move.

Like I said if you don't have a workable app for the form way then the form way is wrong or you don't know the correct app. The problem is with the guys that pass it down a certain way just because that's how they learned it even though they don't really understand it.

I'd question the ligitimacy and knowledge of any teacher that tells you 'that's just the way it's done in the for'. The only exception I guess would be a training for that's intended to build strength, balance, etc. and not for direct fighting application.

[Ou Ji]

that's exactly what he's talking about - you shouldn't have to adapt...

I also agree with that but come to a different conclusion as seen above.

[Chief Fox]

that's exactly what he's talking about - you shouldn't have to adapt...
I don't agree. You can take one application from a form and adapt it to different kinds of defensive and offensive attacks.

Just because a punch in a form is shoulder level does not mean that it can' be adapted to a lower or higher attack.

In a form a combo may be in a linear format but you may have to adapt that combo to include a side step in combat.

Also, there are unlimited body types and personal fighting styles, so a technique may need to be adapted to fit your body type or style or your opponents body type or style better.

being able to adapt isn't a weakness I think it's strength.

Lets put it in terms of a grappler. Wrestling a 150lb. person is much different than wrestling a 200lb person. You have to change your techniques, your style, you have to adapt. Adapting is a part of fighting.

[SevenStar]

even the kick is slightly different, no? If I kick you in the head, the power of the kick comes in a different place and time than it would if I was kicking low. This is what knife meant when he was saying it would confuse neuromotor pathways.

[PangQuan]

that's exactly what he's talking about - you shouldn't have to adapt...

this is exactly it. some people will be professional fighters. others will be artists.

this does not take the art away from the sportsman, nor the fight from the artsman.

just different focus's.

the artists may train fighters. they will isolate the techniques from the systems forms and use specific ones to drill into the fight student, w/o teaching them forms perhaps. but regardless, if the forms all become forgotten and lost, so do many techniques.

its the artists duty to preserve the styles so that a fighter may use the artist to extract the fighting skills inherent within the system.

i will never be a sport fighter, i am an artist. that simply means I plan to carry on the tradition of the system i represent, and study.

but that doesnt mean i cant fight with it. granted in a sport setting i would get pwnd most likely.

but attack me on the street and you will meet my animal.

its my duty to understand all of the applications within my system, so that i can pass these on to another artist, or pass on specified ones to a fighter.

[Ou Ji]

SevenStar
I think we've reached the point wwhere we're knickpicking over something that has only the smallest difference in the outcome of a real fight. Practing a kick an extra 6 inches higher is not going to matter a whole lot one way or the other. I can't imagine it determing a win or loss. Fighting just isn't that exact. Every situation is different.

Forms contain low kicks as well as high kicks. Even mid level kicks. I'm not saying to practice only one kick to get proficient at them all. Hopefully you and KF aren't saying that forms have only one level kick.

I don't see forms in general as bad but possibly specific forms are bad if they are not done as they would be used. Don't throw out forms altogether. Just bring them back in line with where they shoud be in the first place.

Chief Fox
I suspect each side is talking about something slightly different. There is value in adapting moves for other uses. The problem is when you have a move in a form that HAS to be modified to be usefull. I agree that is wrong. There is a primary app for each move in the form and that app should coincide with the context of the form.

Quite often I have trouble explaining my thoughts and I think we're all close in agreement. Being MArtists we have trouble giving even an inch in our argument.

[hskwarrior]

Kicks coming from different places and times, and the confusion of Neuromotor pathways is, wow, kind of a lot of things to consider when lifting your leg to throw a kick.

what ever happened to throwing the kicks that work for you instead of researching the scientific ramifications of blah blah blah.

use what ever works, and for a fact, sometimes what you think won't work actually works.

lets hear it for unconfused neuromotor skills......HOOORRRAAAYYYY.

[SevenStar]

I don't agree. You can take one application from a form and adapt it to different kinds of defensive and offensive attacks.

Just because a punch in a form is shoulder level does not mean that it can' be adapted to a lower or higher attack.

In a form a combo may be in a linear format but you may have to adapt that combo to include a side step in combat.

Also, there are unlimited body types and personal fighting styles, so a technique may need to be adapted to fit your body type or style or your opponents body type or style better.

being able to adapt isn't a weakness I think it's strength.

Lets put it in terms of a grappler. Wrestling a 150lb. person is much different than wrestling a 200lb person. You have to change your techniques, your style, you have to adapt. Adapting is a part of fighting.

I agree with you. That's not the same thing we're talking about. the punch is mechanically the same, whether it is high or low. Some of the applications I've seen for various things are NOT mechanically the same. This is where the problem arises.

as for the grappling situation, I don't vary my techniques because of weight. However, you may have to change them because of height.

[SevenStar]

SevenStar
I think we've reached the point wwhere we're knickpicking over something that has only the smallest difference in the outcome of a real fight. Practing a kick an extra 6 inches higher is not going to matter a whole lot one way or the other. I can't imagine it determing a win or loss. Fighting just isn't that exact. Every situation is different.

Forms contain low kicks as well as high kicks. Even mid level kicks. I'm not saying to practice only one kick to get proficient at them all. Hopefully you and KF aren't saying that forms have only one level kick.

it is getting nitpicky, but nonetheless, there is constant progress. Here is an example of something that I've seen happen. We had newbs feeding for pad drills and when they did so, they would hold the pad further in front of their face, so that they didn't have to worry about their partner accidentally hitting them. When we sparred with said newbs, we noticed that they would pull their jab before they were in range to hit us. In this case, sure, the extra few inches makes all the difference.



Chief Fox
I suspect each side is talking about something slightly different. There is value in adapting moves for other uses. The problem is when you have a move in a form that HAS to be modified to be usefull. I agree that is wrong. There is a primary app for each move in the form and that app should coincide with the context of the form.


exactly.