???? for R A F

[Water Dragon]

RAF,
I'd appreciate it very much if you could go over some Baji basics for me. I'm especially interested in the abdominal coiling mechanic. The best I can explain it is the navel twists to one direction while the shoulder twists to another. The power is generated by releasing the tension. Thanks

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[RAF]

Water Dragon:

If you can, please get a copy of the Journal of Asian Martial Arts (two issues).

Volume 9 No.1, 2000
Volume 8 No.4, 1999
http://www.goviamedia.com/

I think you are referring to xu jing ---> fa jing.

My baji training started with single moving postures and the most basic of the moving one punches. We were told simply to play and not worry about anything. As we loosened and our stances deepened (kua area must be flexible) the principle was shown to us. The only way to develop it is to practice over and over and over again. There is no real secret other than proper structural alignment. It is so hard to see this in the pictures or verbal explanations. I do not think you can consciously force it.

I see you live in Indiana. If you get a chance to visit Akron, Ohio, come and visit the school or make an arrangement to see Tony Yang. We have a video on the baji/pigua combination form with a lot of training on it. Unfortunately it was designed for people attending the seminar and the verbal explanations are almost nonexistant.

Sorry, I wish I could help you more. The best student I know practiced this without knowing he had it. 9 years later, the teacher pointed it out and it made complete sense since he could feel it. I saw another student who didn't have it but found out the explanation of what it was. He went around telling the teacher how much he trained and how he had it. No way. At first I thought the teacher was being mean by not telling us these concepts, however, his training was not structured like a college course. He wanted you to have the bodily experience and then the abstract conceptual knowledge. Frustrates the hell out of us who would like to see the blueprint before the building is constructed.

Come and visit sometime.

[Water Dragon]

Very Strange as I think you just answered my question. I did about 2 straight years on opening and closing the kua to generate power. If you are familiar with William CC Chen it is the old wind up and release.

I just figured out the 2 can be merged along with some Southern Mantis Fa Jing which involves swallowing the stomach. Ima be a busy boy for a while :D

Any comments

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[RAF]

Water Dragon:

I first want to make sure you understand that I am not being evasisive. There is so much room for misunderstanding on the websites.

xu jing ---> fa jing

if you see a baji player doing the posture before the moving one punch, they will look as though they are leaning forward while there feet are in a closed cat stance. There is so much room for misinterpretation here. The upper body has a relaxed tension, the lean forward is really a sinking of the kua area/stomach, this is also where the idea of reverse breathing occurs. When you move out into the punch, you must travel about 2-3 feet and front foot sort of grinds into your horse stance as though you were putting out a cigeratte butt. Although it looks straight, the body is also exhibiting a tight chan si jing while the stomach area blows out--its also important to not rise up but to try to maintain a steady level. Difficult to explain, hard to experience, yet this is where baji takes on flavors of hsing I (sort of) and taiji (somewhat like chen) but these do a great disservice to baji and the uniqueness of the other systems. Its simple but complex to feel and develop.

BTW, I agree with you on the basics. Without the proper energies, advance techniques are a waste of one's time. I do not know CC Chen personally but have met him once, I believe, at a Great Lakes Tournament. Very quiet and nice. Do you practice Cheng Man-Ching's form and system? Oh, also, Ben Lo teaches Cheng Man-Ching's system holding postures. That is also a key to baji. The xiao baji form is held for 3,4 or 8 breaths and helps develop a sinking jing along with a crossing jing (structural descriptions). Also as you move through holding the postures, there are places where you fa-jing too. I think this also helps to develop xu jing ---> fa jing.

I now see a big issue about rotating the dan tien. Although we never describe that way in baji, certain exercises with the big spear seem to develop this quite well. Its a bit late for me, but I have seen young guys in their early 20s make very good progress with xiao baji and the big spear. They learned to punch well by using their entire body in a relaxed/tension state---it feels no different than delivering a punch in the Chen system.

Later.

[Water Dragon]

I'm not that deep into it Bro, Here's what I'm doing.

1. Stand in Horse Stance
2. Left arm coils up in front of you
2B At the same time, the right arm rises up behind you.
3. During all of this, the navel stays straight ahead and the right shoulder moves to the right. This motion creates a very strong twisting motion internally. It feels to me like a spring being pulled so that it can be RELEASED.
4. The uncoiling of the left arm is a "trigger" which activates the internal uncoiling and causes the right arm to whip over and down to right in front of the navel.

If you know the exercise, #3 is what I'm really interested in. Now that I think I understand it, I can "steal" it and add it to my Taiji. I just want to make sure I understand what it is exactly: A spring which is wound up so that it may be released to produce power.

Am I far off?

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[RAF]

Sounds like it!


Surprisingly we also use the principle in some pi gua movements.

I only got into this because my teacher after being here for 20 years, sold his restaurant and wanted to come out more publicly.

Since about 1998 we started down this path and my background is useful for writing his ideas, principles, and training. For most of my years, we simply trained in the basics and to this day, that is what we still do. When the mystical magic dissipates and the sweat of hard training appears, the dabblers soon delve into the philsophy. I only entered this board because of some concerns regarding GM Liu's bagua and I hope to cut back on this. I enjoy reading them but it would be better if people could exchange information and ideas in a seminar setting.

PS. I know nothing of the Southern systems. Bought a couple of hung gar tapes from Wing Lam and really liked them.

[Water Dragon]

Thanks for the info RAF. Yes, I agree with the basics. And if this new mechanic is like the old ones, I'll be doing it day in-day out for a year or so until it becomes natural. That is cool though as experience has shown me that once I do get---I'll have it. It'll come out in all of my movements without having to think about it.

In regard to the other stuff. I do Master Chen's 60 movements but am familiar with some Ben Lo material as they were both indoor students.

Check out some other stuff from the southern systems. My limited experience indicates that though the abdominal pressure is not as advanced (it is more of a sucking straight up and releasing) their upper bell training is second to none. They use an amazing coil of the forearm based on relaxed tension that follows in theory with both Taiji and the Baji exercise I described above.

If you haven't guessed, I think when I finally "know" all 3 I will have some good solid power. I personally believe that all martial arts are fundamentally the same. What differentiates them is strategy, and the order of importance they place on specific mechanics.

I will definately try to get to Akron this summer. I'd love to cross hands and play around.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[khinbu]

Sorry to interrupt your discussion, guys. But I have one question regarding Bajiquan. I have just got a book (in Japanese) about Bajiquan, which is written by certain Zhang Shizhong (the old man in the book). My question is, what is his connection to Wu Tan club (Liu Yunqiao)? The book is written in 1959.

Wish for peace

[RAF]

Dear Wish For Peace:

The book you identify is in Japanese and published in 1959.

I doubt whether this was associated with Liu Yun-qiao. If you go to the site below, you will see that GM Liu was heavily invovled with the Taiwan military and it was not until 1968 that some of his martial arts became public. Baji is taught to the Presidential Security and given the historical relationship of China, Taiwan and Japan, I cannot imagine how the Chinese/Taiwanese would permit such a book to be published. Check the postures against any of Adam Hsu's articles and what is found on this site Huo Style.


http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Dome/3981/baji_e.html

The site below will give you the Chronology of GM Liu.
http://www.bajimen.org/

Good luck in your search