Wang Lang and the form "Tang Lang Tou Tao"

[taichi4eva]

I read somewhere that Wang Lang, in addition to inventing BengBu, also practiced a form called "Praying Mantis Steals Peach." What's the difference between this form and "White Ape Steal Peach" (baiyuan tou tao) and is this information correct?

Thank you

[monkeyfoot]

could say the same Q about WG exits the cave and PM exists the cave

[mooyingmantis]

I read somewhere that Wang Lang, in addition to inventing BengBu, also practiced a form called "Praying Mantis Steals Peach." What's the difference between this form and "White Ape Steal Peach" (baiyuan tou tao) and is this information correct?

Thank you

Though I cannot prove my opinion, I doubt Wang Lang invented Tang Lang Tou Tao (Praying Mantis Steals the Peach).
The movements of Bai Yuan Tou Tao (White Ape Steals the Peach), other than being another 7*PM set, are not connected to the above mentioned set.
In the WHF lineage, White Ape Steals the Peach only has about 24 movements, while Praying Mantis Steals the Peach has about 49 movements. They are very different sets. As are White Ape exits the Cave and Praying Mantis Exits the Cave.
Richard

[taichi4eva]

The reason I asked is because I know that it's been traditionally held that Wang Lang's three original sets were Bengbu, Lanjie, and Bazhou. However, from what I've read, Li San Jian, who was an early practicioner of Seven Star Mantis and only a few generations after the founder, inherited only Bengbu and Lanjie. Could this mean that Wang Lang only practiced Bengbu then? Furthermore, Bazhou is often missing in the form syllabus of many Seven Star masters.

Sifu Jon Funk says that the "praying mantis steals punch" was "Wang Lang's favorite form" on his website. That's where I got this piece of information.

[onyomi]

Know one can say for sure what Wang Lang's "favorite form" was since we know next to nothing about him. He may have been a Shaolin monk, he may have been a Daoist (Sheng Xiao Dao Ren), he may have been an ordinary guy from Shandong, he may have been a famous fencer, Wang Lang could be his name or could just mean "a young man with surname Wang"...etc. etc.

There is a tradition also in my school that Wang Lang first invented Xiao Huyan and later Beng Bu. This makes since to me since Xiao Huyan feels like a kind of bridge between Longfist and Mantis--not just a Longfist set with a few mantis movements thrown in... but then again, that could just be a convenient explanation for why the hybridish form of Xiao Huyan exists.

It's also said that Wang Lang, after having had his first revelation with the mantis and cicada, later had another revelation when watching monkeys play that caused him to adopt the monkey footwork. Since the monkey footwork has supposedly been an important part of PM since the beginning, it would make since for Wang Lang to have created forms designed to impart the monkey footwork like the three white monkey forms.

I think the most important thing in understanding the creation of PM is that it was a group effort. Whether the group was meeting to overthrow the Qing dynasty or just to create a new and effective martial art is also up to debate, but it seems fairly certain by all accounts that the idea of up to 18 masters of other styles coming together to help Wang Lang create a new, improved fighting style is probably true.

[Young Mantis]

The reason I asked is because I know that it's been traditionally held that Wang Lang's three original sets were Bengbu, Lanjie, and Bazhou. However, from what I've read, Li San Jian, who was an early practicioner of Seven Star Mantis and only a few generations after the founder, inherited only Bengbu and Lanjie. Could this mean that Wang Lang only practiced Bengbu then? Furthermore, Bazhou is often missing in the form syllabus of many Seven Star masters.

Sifu Jon Funk says that the "praying mantis steals punch" was "Wang Lang's favorite form" on his website. That's where I got this piece of information.


Sifu Funk's website says correctly that "Praying Mantis Steals Peach" was LAW GWONG YUK's favorite form, not Wang Lang's. I think you may have remembered it incorrectly and hence this confusion.

There have been many threads in this forum on the history of the "steals peach" forms. Try doing a search on them.

Vance
YM

[Young Mantis]

I think the most important thing in understanding the creation of PM is that it was a group effort. Whether the group was meeting to overthrow the Qing dynasty or just to create a new and effective martial art is also up to debate, but it seems fairly certain by all accounts that the idea of up to 18 masters of other styles coming together to help Wang Lang create a new, improved fighting style is probably true.

Whether or not Wang Lang was the sole creator of PM is still up to speculation. However, the notion that the 18 masters listed in the poem of the creation of PM physically got together to create this style is not accurate. The poem if anything commemorates certain techniques or fighting strategies to famous and popular martial artists known at that time. In fact, several of them could not have even been alive anymore according to most histories of when Wang Lang lived and developed the style. There are also many threads on the this poem or sonnet as well on this forum. It has been discussed before.

Vance
YM

[mantis108]

When it comes to Wang Lang, anybody's speculations as just as every one else.

I have heard that the Tanglang Tou Tao is a favorite set of Luo Guangyu. It would seem to me that he put some of the combo found in that form into the 14 roads Tan Tui.

There seems to be an intimate relationship between the Seven Star line and Tongbei especially the Baiyuan Tongbei which IMHO is where the White Ape series came from.

I am not sure if Baiyuan Tou Tao is related to Tanglang Tou Tao. I have however seen a Tanglang Tou Tao played by the Russian contigent of TJPM. The flavor is different (with the TJPM flavor) while the structure is recognizable as TLTT. BTW, I don't know for sure if it is called TLTT by the Russian TJPM group.

According to Ilya Profatilov's translation of Liang Xuexiang's manuscript "On Making it Possible to have Combat Courage" (Ke Shi You Yong - CE 1852) which is the very source of Meihwa/Taiji tradition begins, it has the following entry:

"In the pass Master Wang Lang created such forms as "Eight Elbows" (Fenshen Bazhou), "Chaotically Connected" (Luanjie), and "Secret Hands" (Mishou). Furthermore he discoursed on the theories of emptiness and fullness (Kung Shi) and softness and hardness (Gang Rou). His perfection was without bound."

However, in his early manuscript "Boxing, Staff and Spear Fencing Mannual (Quan Gun Qiang Pu - CE 1842). There doesn't seem to have mentioning of Wang Lang. Curious enough, there is Bengbu, Luanjie (AKA Meihwa) and Fenshen Bazhou.

I have came across bits and pieces of info on these manuscripts which lead me to think that Liang had already came across a version of the Luohan Xinggong Duanda (Arhat Short Strikes - mid 1700 CE) manuscript as early as 1842 which he basically paraphrased some of the content to form his own manuscripts. He would have reorganized his teaching materials around 1852 based on the insight he gained from reading and/or working the LHXGDD. This is why the mentioning of Wang Lang who is also mentioned in the LHXGDD. Gang Rou and Xu (Kung) Shi are also important concepts found in the LHXGDD. I believe that Liang by 1852 was ready to present a full system of his own which is base on Tanglang profile of Plumblossom Grand ultimate hands, winter rooster step and Monkey disposition.

In later manuscripts by his grandstudents such as Cui Shoushan's Tanglang Quanpu (CE 1935), Luanjie, Bengbu, Meihwalu, Fenshen Bazhou and Zhaiyao (7 sections) are mentioned as the mantis corpus amongst other forms (no White Ape series at all). Only the Luanjie, Fenshen Bazhou and Zhaiyao have detailed apps descriptions and special commentaries that are based on Yijing (classic of change) principles and concepts. This lead me to believe that these 3 forms are really the backbone or pillars of Liang's system. Bengbu and Meihwalu seemed to be less of a core forming material IMHO.

Just some thoughts to share. :)

Mantis108

[taichi4eva]

Young Mantis

"2508-0 DVD 8 - TONG LONG TOU TOE (Praying Mantis steals the Peach) - This advanced form was Wong Long's favorite hand set."

http://www.mantiskungfu.com/HowtoLearn.htm

just wanted to show you.

[taichi4eva]

Onyomi,

I'm interested in the Xiao Hu Yuen theory. I always thought it was a form incorporated into Mantis through the Najing institute.

Who created the Praying Mantis Steals Peach form then? Luo Guanyu?

[Young Mantis]

I see that. You are indeed correct that the site says that about this form. I am positive this was a typo for whoever was writing the description of this form for the DVD. Elsewhere on Sifu Funk's site, http://www.mantiskungfu.com/HistoryofPrayingMantisKungfu.htm he states:


Fan's student, Lo Kwon Yuk, made a name for himself after being sent by Fan to teach as one of the first instructors of the famous Ching Mo Athletic Association...His favourite fist set was Tong Long Tow Toe (praying mantis steals the peach). This a hand set that is performed with quickness, and is excellent for developing fighting skills.

Sifu Funk is himself quoting the writings of Master Wong Hon Funn on this. Again, there have been several posts about this form in the forum already. I am sure you find the answers to your questions about this form if you search the forum.

Vance

[Tainan Mantis]

I have written an article on the application of White Ape Steals the Peach as it relates to the Mei Hua Tang Lang school.

I hope that all can enjoy.

http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/bai%20yuan%20tou%20tao.htm

[Redfish]

Since we are not confused enough already, I'm going to add some more conflicting information.

In our school's Luo Guang Yu Seven Star tradition, the three 'mother forms' are said to be Beng Bu, Duo Gang and Shi Ba Sou.

Then, we have four pairs of Tou Tao (steals the peach) and Chu Dong (exits the cave) forms: Tang Lang (Mantis), Bai Yuan (White Ape), Hei Hu (Black Tiger) and Bai Ying (White Eagle).

When talking about these I find it's best to have a visual confirmation. Just within Seven Star, I have seen the same group of forms with all the names swapped around. Were all doing the same kung fu, but referring to different forms in conversation without realising it.

For example, I have seen Seven Star schools play Bai Yuan Tou Tao (white ape steals peach) and thought 'oh, that's what we call mantis steals .... '. Also, another example, I met Neil Armstrong and he played Bai Yuan Tou Tao which was like our Hei Hu Tou Tao. But, you know, we were all doing the same kung fu.

[KwaiChangCaine]

Same set, slighly different name from place to place. Names of sets switched with others. The result of errors in record keeping or a deliberate decision to rename, rearrange, redisgn?