Roof Top Mantis VS Wing Chun - 1956 footage...

[mantis108]

First and foremost, please view this clip with an open mind and please don't see it as style VS stlye type of material.

I found this clip on a Hong Kong forum:

Roof Top Sparring 1956 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1329409190543079831&q=wing+chun)

BTW, here's some stills to look at the participants

Pre-fight photo ops (http://hk.geocities.com/hkvingtsun/photograph.htm)

The dark pants person is the Wing Chun representive and the light pants is the Mantis representive. I will share my views if there are interests about it. As it is, I believe it is a good historic archieve of one important fighting format of Kung Fu community. There are definitely good lessons to be had.

Mantis108

[phoenixdog]

An interesting clip,but the mantis player is not doing northern mantis,perhaps southern mantis at best.Another weak style against another weak style.

[Emeraldphoenix]

Well, the direct tactics of the wing chung fighter are obviously too much for the other guy. [Is the other guy really a trained fighter?] I saw lots of flailing about by him but not really any tactics with any intent by him. He actually looked scared, or afraid to get hit.

Very interesting though... What is your take on it?

[BeiTangLang]

I'd guess not. I saw no trained skills from the other guy. It would be hard pressed to say he was doing any style at all. My red-neck brother would have done better.
Thanks for sharing the old clip,....but its hard for me to distinguish that it even belongs on this forum. I'll take your word it was mantis.

[phoenixdog]

My crippled grandmother can fight better than the two chinese dudes in the clip.

[sihing]

My crippled grandmother can fight better than the two chinese dudes in the clip.


LOL..If you trying to make yourself look like a uninformed idiot, it's working...

JR

[mantis108]

Well, the direct tactics of the wing chung fighter are obviously too much for the other guy. [Is the other guy really a trained fighter?] I saw lots of flailing about by him but not really any tactics with any intent by him. He actually looked scared, or afraid to get hit.

Very interesting though... What is your take on it?

I agreed with your observation that the direct tactics of the Wing Chun fighter works very well in this case. His control of the "ring" and reflects also shows that he's properly the more experienced. I think experience play a big part in this bout.

Having said that I also believe that the Wing Chun camp would have an advantage over the Mantis camp. BTW, the caption from the photo page said that the mantis guy is a Northern Mantis although no lineage is given. This film is captured by the Wing Chun camp and seems to be in the procession of Bruce Lee. There is a video "Bruce Lee: A Warrior's Journey" which features this clip as a segment. I have heard that Wing Chun's Wong Shum Leung used to do this type of fighting and would go to Yip Man for advices and corrections. This shows that the Wing Chun camp more or less have a support system and resources for its "fighters". On the other hand, I have never heard that same support and resource were available to the Mantis camp. At least I am not aware of it. Furthermore, I have heard that HK Mantis community at large at the time frown upon "private competitions". Even today, there are mantis schools that don't deem sparring as viable and meaningful training aid.

I would say that the mantis respresentive did exhibit one of the typical mantis tactics traits. However, I think he might have chosen the wrong tactic for this venue and opponent. The Mantis stylist tried to use footwork and kicks in an attempt to maintain a long range approach which, he would have more options, while at the same time avoid fighting in close range where the Wing Chun stylist would probably have an advantage (as least in theory). The problem is that this Wing Chun stylist is good at "cutting the ring". So the fancy footwork of the Mantis guy is nullified. After the missed kick and the clash that resulted both parties fallen on their butt, the Wing Chun guy quickly recovers and took advantage of that situation. This reflects and the ability to cut the ring impresses me a lot. The mantis guy's high kick didn't do much but got him thrown over the obstacle of the venue (this is where the inexperience show the most - low ring awareness). He also got a bit strike and kick shy after the clash. The "failing" is partly a result of this IMHO. I believe that he was trying to hard to "showcase" his style and make a wrong chosen of a cluster of techniques (Quan Beng combo). You are right that he doesn't seem to have the intent to hit the opponent hard.

The last segment of him being knock out by the Wing Chuner (as least it is how it is billed) clearly show another wrong tactic being deployed. He seems to be obsessed with kicking (this time a low kick). This turns out to be yet again another oppotunity that the Wing Chun stylist took advantage of.

I would think that right off the bat the Mantis stylist's fate is sealed due to the lack of support and resources. The differences in experience and confidence would be another important factor. Finally despite the training of the mantis stylist which in my mind is ligit and solid, one can only achieve so much aganist staggering odds.

I would like to thank you for sharing your opinion and seeing this clip as it is and keeping away from style vs style.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Emeraldphoenix]

You have to atleast say the wing chun guy is keeping his wits about him. Staying close and keeping it simple.

I am not even comparing styles in this scenario. Just the tactics and fighter.

[Emeraldphoenix]

I put my post up and then saw that you posted that reply. Thanks. I would say that experience was a big factor here. I cant speak for Mantis camp or wing chun camps. My self, I study 7* and would say that his mantis sucked. He was afraid of full contact. There is an old story about a monkey,a lion, fox and a rabbit.[long story] But the essence of the story is all it takes is 1 good tech to get the job done. I dont believe any style is the best. It is the teacher and the fighter. But it comes down to the fighter. If you are a bad a$$, You'll be a bad a$$ in any style.

[mantid1]

Maybe these guys were "traditional" stylist and did much of their training with forms and some two person drills or sets but never did any san shou or sanda type of fighing.

I would love to have been able to see each one perform a set from their systems. It would be my guess that they could perform a set with at least a moderate level of proficiency, at least better than they could fight. I bet you would be able to tell the mantis guy was "mantis" by the way he did his form.

This could be the proof against training only forms and two person drills and no fighting.

If this is the case it would make sense that the Wing Chun Practiotioner would do better since their forms are more direct and to the point.

In any case you can clearly see the need to train grappling/ground fighting. If either of these guys had this type of training the other person would be in a world of hurt. They looked even more like fish out of water when they came close to going down.

[Oso]

yep, light pants guy didn't really want to fight.

dark pants was composed and pressed the attack firmly and w/o fancy stuff.

In the last section dark pants clearly seals w/ the left hand and delivers what looks like a palm to the guys head/face.

[Emeraldphoenix]

Now a days you see alot of that. Great forms and then the guy steps into a ring[fight] and then i dont know what happens. I understand if people arent into fighting full contact but you have to be able to atleast defend yourself with something that looks like you have some training.

MARTIAL arts does imply that you may be fighting at some point, right? Martial= war like art. unless that is just some obscure old school meaning. I think it is a great injustice for those that spend years training forms and never train to fight or atleast defense. Unless you never have the intention of fighting or defending yourself then i guess forms only would be fine. I would just be very upset if i trained forms for years and then i find myself in a situation where i have to defend myself or worst a loved one and i found myself to be completely helpless

[MightyB]

I hate how everybody posts stuff like they are some kind've a supreme omniponent fighter... so I'm going to do it too.

"The mantis guys mantis sucks" or "he wasn't any good yada yada yada".

I bet he was a great mantis fighter within his school. I bet he can free spar like a fighting machine against the people he trains with. I bet he left this match thinking he won, or he had a ton of "coulda woulda shouldas" that he spouted to everybody he knew about how and if and because or whatever...
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Hey, here's a universal truth:
Nobody likes to get hit. Nobody looks pretty when they fight.
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The mantis guy was definitely doing mantis. You could see it in his footwork, stance, and hand technique... I would even venture to guess that he was an advanced student, judging by how he rigidly kept to "the plan" even when it wasn't working. But hey, what'ya do if it goes bad and you have no plan B?

One thing's for sure, I bet both fighters were changed from the experience. Unfortunately, a lot of people who lose blame themselves or the style and don't look to how they are training. Maybe it's not the style or the student, but, because of rigid formalities and tradition, the student isn't allowed to question the training methods.
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I think that this video is a good thing to keep in mind with the current threads about cross training and lineage that are on the boards currently
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Oh, and here's my take on this clip:
They both displayed skill in their respective styles. The wing chun fighter won.

[Young Mantis]

MightyB,

I hear what you are saying about other people's posts and now I may be guilty of the very thing you are hating on but I really can't agree with your assessment of this individual. Yes, it is clear he tried to present himself as a praying mantis stylist. But I don't see how you jump to asserting he could be an advanced level student. His plan did not work yet he stayed his course. OK, so he did not revert back to some instinctual form of 'flailing about' so he has some training and discipline. But he was not able to adapt to this opponent either which to me is not an advanced practitioner. Rigidly keeping to one plan and not having a plan b is not an advanced level anything, especially Praying Mantis.

I am not an omnipotent fighter. But here's another universal truth:
Nobody likes to see their art embarrassed. I applaud you for trying to defend him.

When it comes down to it, this was a fight between two individuals. There is always a winner and a loser. Its everyone else watching the fight that turn this into a style debate. This style is better than that. This training method is better than that. How about one person was a better fighter than the other?

I am a traditionalist yet I believe you should always question the training methods. Not openly question your instructors, but question inwardly, to yourself, as to what, why, and how you are training. Sometimes people just follow blindly what the sifu is teaching. Yes, we follow without question...to sifu, but always questioning to ourselves. That is how we understand and digest what we are learning. Sifu can only teach me what he knows. He can't teach me how to understand it. The student must make that connection himself.

Vance
YM

[mantis108]

Bingo! You have a keen eye. :) Although, that move would be termed as Feng shou in Mantis, I believe the Wing Chun style will term it differently. Anyway, it's great input from you, my friend.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[18elders]

The biggest problem for the mantis guy was himself. He was scared to fight the guy. Maybe the wing chun guy was known as a good fighter and the mantis guy was gun shy.
The mantis guy didn't really attack the WC guy, a little kick here and there but there was no real intent to attack.
It didn't boil down to style, just the one guy was not a fighter.

[phoenixdog]

My crippled grandmother is on her way up to canada now to inform you. 5 seconds into this clip both the mantis and wc fighter fall on their butts,kicker and kicked.No follow up,no attacks to the head,these guys were just testing each other, not a real fight. If you believe what Dan Insanto says,Bruce Lee abandoned wc and trained in mantis because the trapping was stronger for bigger,stronger american size fighters.

[Sifu Darkfist]

With all due respect And much is due to you no question
you found a guy that doesnt like to fight against a guy that fights every once in a while. Niether one of those guys are "fighters" by my definition. It looks as if he is chasing his little brother after he called him a jerk.

[MightyB]

So I was on my way to work when this crippled old lady came out of nowhere and beat the crap out of me. I couldn't give a good description to the police other than I picked up a southwestern accent in her constant taunting and insults to my manhood.
---

What every martial artist goes through:

Prior to training: fight with instinct, depends on natural talents.

Beginner student: still mostly uses instinct, muddied up by trying to use technique

Intermediate: S. O. L.

Advanced: tries like heck to use technique, can't fight, instincts suppressed due to training. Win some, lose some more.

Master: doesn't think about technique, fights purely on instinct--- uses intuition, experience, and skill to beat the crap out of people.

---

[Young Mantis]

Interesting post MightyB. I don't really share your pessimism but in a sense you keep it real and I respect your humility. Your post got me thinking though about instinct vs reflex. I think in your examples, by Master level, he is fighting on pure reflex which he has trained to replace instinct. The novice uses what is instinctual but all martial artists train to develop our techniques so that they can be used without thought, reflexive.

Just some thoughts.

[Oso]

I agree w/ Mighty B's post. I tell new students that they are now worse off than when before they started.

I'm not as pessimistic about how long it takes to shake through those levels. That will depend on the teacher's training methods and the aptitude of the student.


It looks like the mantis guy new his footwork and posture from his forms pretty well but had obviously not tried to fight with them very much.

I'm afraid that we probably aren't going to see very many good examples caught on film from this time period.

Shifu Kevin talked a little bit about some challenges he's had and the 'nice' way to settle them and test each others skills that weren't total beat down fights. Maybe what we are seeing is more a 'test of skill' rather than a fight. In which case the objective was to use clear, effective technique from the style. In that light the mantis guy doesn't look as bad but the WC guy was more effective...though I didn't see enough power in that palm for a KO.

[puma]

The 'wing chun guy' was Bruce Lee when he first started learning wing chun i believe

[Young Mantis]

Puma,

That is incorrect. On the second link given in the first post, the Pre-fight photos, it states the WC fighter is 胡師傅 - Wu Sifu. Further down the page, there is another photo that gives his full name as 胡鎮南師傅. Certainly not Bruce Lee.

Incidentally, there is a photo of the two fighters standing side by side pre-fight with the PM guy's arm around the WC guy's shoulders. This certainly fits along the lines of a friendly test and not a grudge match if that at all means anything.

YM

[puma]

Hi, Young mantis:)
I'm gonna have to disagree with you.
The guy on the roof top sparring clip is
indeed Bruce Lee
That clip is on a dvd called Bruce Lee a warriors journey:)

[onyomi]

No, it's not Bruce Lee. Besides the fact that it looks nothing like him, the Chinese clearly says his name is Hu, not Li. The clips is mislabeled in English.

[CFT]

Young Mantis and Onyomi are correct - the pics and vid footage are of Wu Chun Nam sifu.