Hung-gars internalness? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

TheBigToad

04-17-2001, 05:36 PM

Hung Gar is about as internal as Shotokan Karate is, so in other words its not even close. There are reasons why Bagua, Xingyi, I-Quan, Taiji, LiuhebahaChuan are all considered internal arts, notice how Hung Gar doesn't fit into this list.
The Iron Wire set is a form containing hard dynamic tension and what can easily be considered hyperventilation in the breathing sense. While this does increase muscles to work hard under stressful situations and increase muscular endurance, what it also does is total mess the alkaline levels in the blood and cause one to be semi-light headed and tingily, if you wanna call this "I feel the Chi" go right ahead, but understand this is not what internal movement and power is all about.
Hung Gar is doing now what a lot of other systems are doing, adding the "internal" because it sells, its a marketing ploy, they rely on the "mystery" and "magical," the "I can't really explain it" non sense behind what is internal power so students will buy into what not really there in a very complete sense.

denali

04-17-2001, 06:43 PM

That's one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read. . .and just so this one fits in, I'll add no more.

denali

04-17-2001, 06:46 PM

If you say that an internal art is strictly Taoist, then Hung Gar is not.

If you say that an internal art uses internal strength along with external and develops qi, then Hung Gar is.

RAF

04-17-2001, 07:14 PM

http://www.adamhsu.com/

I think Adam Hsu's essay, The Real Difference between Internal and External Kunguf would fit well here.

"I believe that all these internal/external theories are in fact quite incorrect. The distinction is really very simple to understand. Internal and external do no represent different styles or kinds of kung fu, but rather different levels. We can say that external represents the lower or more elementary level of kungfu and internal the higher and more complex. Therefore in the real kung fu training, REGARDLESS OF STYLE, one must begin with the external and patiently and systematically progress inward to the internal.

Since soem instructors were unable to complete the entire training in their particular styls, many systems today are incomplete and never go beyond the external level. If practitioners are carefully guided by an honest and qualified teacher, who went throught the complete training in a certain style, they will move step-by-step fom the outside, through the door, climb the stairs to the top level, and then reach the internal--the highest level of kung fu.
p. 58

The Sword Polisher's record: The Way of Kung Fu by Adam Hsu

gazza99

04-17-2001, 08:11 PM

AMEN kevin!, I like your post also RAF (Royal Air Force?) What RAF said is true about the progression from external to internal, the difference is arts like taijiquan/baguazhang-hsing-I chuan start their internal training where other arts stop, the most advanced internal technique in other arts is a begginer technique in the above! I have seen really old Masters in other style have that "iron wire" and it is an extremely basic level of internal strengh.
Also
Illusionfist I accually took hung-gar for a few months, My second day in class I was told I could not sparr anyone because it was not fair, I had to teach them something! Some of those students had been there 10 years? Also the teacher has training in some shaolin temple, and did wu style taiji as well, he is the best hung guy in the city. When he saw my fa-jing punch he was mystified, as I could punch 5 times harder that he could, and he is a "Master". I fly in the US Air force, and so I go everywhere, I visit schools, and have NOT ever seen a master with internal abilitys. Many of the so called qi-gong they do is unhealthy, they have postures which block the qi-flow, this is just ignorance.
Hey Denali, I thought this thread might force you to post sometime!!! Nice to see you here!
Gary

RAF

04-17-2001, 08:32 PM

Gary:

RAF---nahhh! My real initials from my name although my father was a captain in the air force for awhile.

I really do not know if I have ever seen a Master of Hung Gar. I think Wing Lam's material looks very good.

I know a lot of Mantis people consider it an external style but many of the masters added 18 lohan exercises to their training. These exercises have a large internal component. The 8 step praying mantis system that I am familiar with also employs the Wu style taiji as part of its system (not mixed with mantis though).

Theres a guy in Massachuestts by the name of Calvin Chin (has a website) who is a hung gar master and also a wu style taiji player. I met him once but he would never remember me (judged taiji together). I bet he could answer this very clearly about hung gar. I saw his students play taiji and it was very, very good along with their hung gar.

illusionfist

04-17-2001, 10:37 PM

Kevin- how much experience in hung gar do you have that enables you to arrive at this answer? Hung Gar has been internal since its inception, so to say its a modern thing is flat out ignorant.

Gary- i'm glad your 2 MONTHS of hung gar under ONE teacher has given you this view. I'll make sure to tell the rest of the lineages to beware of your dreaded "fajing punch."

Pleeeeez!!!! :rolleyes:

illusionfist

04-17-2001, 10:39 PM

Gary- i would like to know which postures you saw that are detrimental to chi flow?

Fu-Pow

04-17-2001, 11:56 PM

There are two different schools on this....
one is that you train the muscles to build up chi and then guide this inside...the other is that you start building chi from the inside and learn how to express it outward...both are equally valid and dependent on each other....

Fu-Pow
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

TheBigToad

04-18-2001, 12:15 AM

>>Kevin- how much experience in hung gar do you have that enables you to arrive at this answer? Hung Gar has been internal since its inception, so to say its a modern thing is flat out ignorant.<<

Well, I'm near brothers with some of Wing Lam's seniors students..does that count? No, Hung Gar is no where near internal compared to systems like Taijiquan and Baguazhang, it is silly and down right laugh my ass off funny for someone to assume so.
Hung Gar in no one takes the time to develop very refined subtle body movements, the amount of self healing and intantion/energies as what an internal system does. This why many hung gar and other external stylists take up arts like Taijiquan to learn what internal is, you don't see Taijiquan people taking up hung gar to become more internal.
Did I once say Hung Gar was modern? No, the idea that it is somehow internal and the magical powers of chi used as a marketing ploy is what is modern.
But why should it really matter to you? Hung Gar is an effective system, around today because it was able to get it's practitioners out of tough spots alive and has been depended upon by mean people and has meet thier needs well. Its your own insecurities that plague you with this "my art is internal too" non sense, no one else's, thats what I find to be flat out ignorant.

WongFeHung

04-18-2001, 12:19 AM

tiet sien kuen teaches many things, some of which I will go into here for clarification: although there is dynamic tension within the form, the emphasis is on a series of releases. The form develops the tendons throughout the body and focuses on winding, and spiriling. The breathing utilizes specific sounds which serve a multifold purpose; to release tension placed upon the internal organs, and to stimulate specific organs and centers. There is an emphasis on faht ging as well in specific sections,using large, small, circular,winding,whipping,sinking,floating, swallowing, and spitting energies, while coordinating the breath/intention. There is attention paid to rooting of the stances, both static and while moving, alignment of the spine,segmentation of the body, all these components and more including concepts and theories such as the sup yee kiu-sao, which opens up an entire can of worms on its own. Now, I'm not sure all Hung-Ga schools teach this, I can't speak for everyone-I haven't been to every Hung-Ga school, so I can only speak for myself. But I don't think an outsider can judge from a month of training, or watching a video a set that is traditionally taught on a very personal Sifu to student level, only after years of training.

Water Dragon

04-18-2001, 12:33 AM

Interesting, that sounds a lot like Southern Mantis. Let me offer this for the "Traditional" internalists. The tension is not based on tensing the muscles. Instead, power is generated through a "release with a stretch" (In quotes in case the person who gave me that pearl reads this)

Personal opinion: The tension at the beginning FORCES you to execute the power with relaxation. At higher levels when the energy becomes "live" the tension is abandoned entirely. Sounds internal to me.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

neijiachuan

04-18-2001, 12:37 AM

I have no experience in Hungar, so I do not wish to comment on that art. However I do study, practice Chinese internal martial arts.

While I have never heard Hungar be called an internal style before I'm not at all saying it does or doesn't have any internal aspects to the training curriculum.

I do, however, have a good friend who studies Hung. He considers Hung to be an external art. With that being said, I have seen him practice first hand and he does not have the degree of sung that the internal arts contain. His power comes from the hard not the soft. His teacher doesn't practice sung in the same manner and sung is not stressed in the same way. This is a big difference between internal & external arts.
There may a form of peng jin in external arts, but not the soft "listening" jin that Taijiquan, Xinyi, Bagua, and other internal arts contain.
External arts may use whole body power. I imagine there are varing degrees of whole body used in various external arts, but again, I don't see the whole body power being used or stressed in external arts like in the internal arts.
There is no use of the dantian in external art to drive the external movement, this is another huge factor. There is no use of chan si or silk reeling in external arts, another huge factor in the differences between the two. There is no attention paid to the 3 external and 3 internal harmonies in external styles to my knowledge.
The whole body is not used as a fist. This concept may have to be shown to understand, as do many of the internal qualities.
Basicly, what that means is that you can strike with any part of the body at any time without having to reload a particular strike. This ability comes from the degree of sung developed.

Just my two cents....

Neijia

Water Dragon

04-18-2001, 12:43 AM

Neijia, yes, there is.
I am continuously amazed at the similarities in the two supposedly "different" styles. External arts ARE fueled by the Dan Tien and use whole body power. Silk Reeling is inherent to Long Fist and although different, the Coiling power in Southern systems is just as full body albeight a bit more wounder. My personal preference is for Coiling vs. Silk Reeling.

The listening is not there, but I say that is more a matter of strategy than anything.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

Kevin Wallbridge

04-18-2001, 12:59 AM

I've never encountered a style that didn't claim to have internal work, or be an internal style for that matter. Whether its Mantis, Wing-Chun, Goju ryu Karate, ad nauseum; everybody says they are internal.

Can they root with real stability? Can they absorb deeply and not just evade superficailly? Do they ever disconnect, from themselves or from their opponents? Do they spend much of their time training/thinking techniques or do they apply principles? Do they actually balance Yin and Yang, not just doing the form slow (I know a local Shotokan practitioner who does this and says what he does is the same as Taijiquan), but balancing power with "Song?"

Most Taijiquan practitioners are Doufu, but Xingyi practitioners are oak, so its hard enough to find internal practitioners in the internals. I've never trained Hung-Gar as a style, but I have trained Iron Wire, and it approximated internal but it was still mechanical-internal (this didn't reflect the teachers ability to be internal as he had wicked Chen style).

illusionfist, you may be right and it may be an internal style, however I'll remain sceptical until I can actually see evidence of someone who has gone internal with Hung-Gar alone. Its rare enough for someone to get internally connected while training a recognized internal style (fortunatly less rare today than 30 years ago) so to see it happen out of a style like Hung-Gar would seem almost miraculous to me.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

hasayfu

04-18-2001, 03:28 AM

This is a big subject. I'll start with, Adam Hsu's quote is correct. Int/Ext don't represent styles but levels of understanding. I used to think that HG and TC were two paths up the same mountain. I now believe that it's still the same mountain but TC starts higher up the mountain.

Fu-Pow was right. 2 different philosophies. Use the one that works. Hung Gar has the theory that you learn the gross movements first and after 10,000 times your body will find the optimal path. Biggest problem with this, who has the dedication to go the distance? Also, the gross movements are very effective early on so gives the impression that you've "made it."

Tai Chi is opposite. Start with perfect form and eventually you add the speed and power. Biggest problem, how many people can tell they are doing the "perfect" form? Like Kevin said, it's hard to find internal people in the internals. Why is that? They do it "relaxed" but have nothing to test against.

Kevin wrote, "Can they root with real stability? [a bunch of questions deleted for brevety]"

Listen to the teachings of Chiu Wai in Calgary or the Lam family in Hong Kong. You'll here everything above emphasized not just taught. I could go line by line if you like. Touch hands with Lum Jo and you feel cotton until he makes the bridge and then it's steel. He is 91 years old and still performs Hung Gar. He understands the internal side of Hung Gar. Pure Hung Gar. No Tai Chi. All the concepts are there. Hung Gar is a conceptual art. Just learning techniques is very basic level.

At the Lam Chun Fai seminar, LCF showed some applications that are internally based. Sensitivity, rooting, absorbing, etc. He is pure Hung Gar and put them in a Hung Gar context but you'd be hard pressed to say Tai Chi does it differently.

Everything TenTigers wrote is taught about TitSin (and more). For the friend of nejiachuan who shows NO sung in his Hung Gar, I can not comment. This is not how the elders in Hung Gar teach it. Again, line by line you are not saying anything that is not covered in Hung Gar. No listening? You don't understand the 12 bridges at all.

Also, don't let demo's fool you. Chiu Chi Ling has to be the worse (IMHO) for showing internal connection in a demo. He likes to do a very flashy style. But I saw him in private and his private teaching is far from his public demo.

OK, so why am I posting? Just to get some of the misconceptions out of the way. I still go back to the fact that tai chi is much more advanced then hung gar in teaching internal concepts. The way they relate the concepts are different too. IMHO, tai chi is too advanced for the average student. Once you get the basics (externals) down, you are ready to absorb the internal. It's like trying to learn calculus without knowing algebra or even basic math.

If you choose to ignore that Hung Gar has internal concepts, then that's your choice. I'm actually posting for the Hung Gar folks to look at their forms and be concious of it. Read the Lam Sai Wing Tit Sin book. It's all there.

virus fist

04-18-2001, 08:04 AM

The only thing Internal about Hung Gar is if you practice inside(lol)

I think,all CMA in their training and applications have Internal and External components but to a different degree,some accentuate the hard over the soft and others the soft over the hard, they all have yin and yang.

The percentage of this soft and hard mix can make a big difference in the principles and the flavor of each style.

Although we all train the same components,strengh,flexibility,balance,aligments, coordination,as the external,
and breathing,concentration,relaxation and chi circulation as internal,each art has it's own expression and principles that make them different.

Some people think that in Internal MA to get power you only need to have the right internal body mechanics,sure you need that,but if you don't include Tan Ti movement,breathing,relaxation and intention to have good chi power circulation ,is no internal power.

Internal power comes from the Tan Tien movement and very refine body mechanics, not from muscle and as far as I know only Tai Chi,Pa Kua and Xing Yi uses that.

[This message was edited by virus fist on 04-18-01 at 11:20 PM.]

illusionfist

04-18-2001, 11:06 AM

Thank you hasayfu :D

neijiachuan

04-18-2001, 02:55 PM

Hi Waterdragon,

Thanks for your comments although I think there must be more present for an art to be considered "internal" than what you listed.

As far as "sung" or relaxed strength goes....this is one of the largest and distinguishing factors in what makes an art "internal" along with central equilibrium, I don't think they can be seperated. I will say this...I have felt the power of Hung and it is NOT relaxed strength.

A spring like quality must be developed. Without this quality, called "peng jing", the art isn't "internal." This quality must be kept and not lost, continuous like the flowing of a river.

Before I go on, let me state that I don't see martial arts as "internal" or "external". I have seen practitioners in each category with qualities of the other. But the use and degree of "sung", "center", and "peng jing" is something that does seem to distinguish the "internal" and "external" arts.

I believe that integrated whole-body power is another element that must be present. You might think it's considered the same way in Hung as Xingyi, Taij or Bagua, but it is not; from my experiences.

The use of the dantian in a variety of ways for a variety of purposes is also another important aspect. The internal movement drives the external movement.

Solid structure is another aspect important for "internal" arts. My teacher says that structure is most important to get proper qi flow, thus the health and martial power in the Chen system. Power is derived from a good structural connection.

Learning a balanced coordination of the internal and external harmonies plays into the mix also. (Internal harmonies: heart-mind, mind-qi, qi- strength; external harmonies: hand-foot, shoulder- hip, elbow-knee)

The whole body as a fist concept of martial usage. Energy can be released from any point on the body in response to stimuli from any and all directions. To Hung practitioners every "re-****" their techniques (punches,kicks,etc)?

The Yi leads the Qi. Proper yi (intention) comes with the understanding of the function of the movements. The yi is the important aspect not the qi or li.

Silk Reeling energy. Sprialing, folding, and circling qualities move energy from the earth up thru the body.

Harmony of Yin and Yang qualities: examples - hard and soft slow and fast up and down full and empty open and closed.

Neijia

Water Dragon

04-18-2001, 04:20 PM

This is from Boxing. Don't pay attention to the words, pay attention to what he is describing and compare that to your own experience.

Rastus on Power

I was thinking on what makes a powerful punch from a feckless, involuntary, spasmodic shot. dot-dot-dot instead of DIG-SLAM-DIG.

I have come up with six ideas.

1. The feet. Both feet need to be well planted to throw a power shot. Don't belive me? Stand up and do the following experiment. Stand on your right foot only, and throw your power shots. Stand on your left foot only, and throw your power shots. Not much there, huh? Now stand with both feet upright, knees locked and throw a power punch. Not much more, is there? Ahhhh, we're on to something...

The tsunami is but a six inch wave after the settling of an ocean shelf...a vast quantity of water has been displaced, but on the surface all is seen is a six inch wave travelling at 60 mph in the direction of intent. That is the analogy of the body shifting and twistign.

If you were standing on the shore, you would watch the waters retract, the shoreline sucking back in a Gothic moment as if a gargantuan demon were to appear...and it shall, because launching onto shore will be a tidal wave that will wipe away the shore...and so with the compression of the body, the tidal wave of fist will sink into the shore of opponent.

2. The body. Lefthooker asked what I meant by the compression of a punch. The compression is the internal momentum generated by the body. It begins with the feet, it's transfered through the legs, it builds with the torque of the body and the potential energy of the accordian body lifting up, and it's delivered through the punch...but the punch is nothing without the body. The left hook drives off the left foot, twisting and slightly lifting from the torso, the left arm still in tight - all this in a split second, and then the deadly elbow extends, the shoulders rotate and the fist lifts up following the motion of the conductor, the body. The right hand is tight to the cheek, the right elbow is tight to the body to drive in the twist, the dangerous torque. When the elbow extends, when the fist lifts out, the body has generated a tremendous force, and upon impact, the entire body will be felt; but it's the body united to the fist that generates power. So what's in our way?
3. Commitment. While we all want to throw hard punches, part of us wants to be safe and moving away from our opponent. The body will actualize this weakness by sabataging our punch. Instead of commiting to the punch, we will choose to be safe and move away from our opponent, rather than commiting to the proper body mechanics necessary to throw a power shot. Your opponent is so far in your head that you cannot get off your game, and so we've accepted staving off defeat rather than executing the techniques required for victory.

4. Technique. Though I described a power hook, the right hand also requires proper technique to gain maximum impact as well as uppercuts as well as even the jab. We must first know how to throw a punch before throwing it well.

5. Focus. If we've lost our focus and we're just reacting to the attack of our opponent, we will never be able to plant our feet, never be able to focus on correct, instinctual body mechanics (made instictual through long days/hours/months in the gym). It's just reacting and throwing punches. SIT DOWN on your punches, and feel them thrown properly...your opponent will feel the result.

6. Combinations. Though I have been emphasizing the power of one punch, as I've meantioned in previous posts, the power of a seasoned boxer is putting power shots together, because when you load up with one punch a wily opponent will always avoid it. Put together intelligent power shots in combinations. Again, in the Gulf War, we sent two missles many times to penetrate our opponent's defenses - the first one blew open the wall, the second one right after the other slipped through the hole and blasted the soft interior for the real damage. Let this be the analogy to your combinations of properly thrown power shots.

Different, yet very similar also.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

Water Dragon

04-18-2001, 04:29 PM

Hi there,
On the old discussion board there was a good discussion about float/sink & swallow/spit. How about starting that one up again?
Regards, Roelof
1. "RE: Float/Sink & Swallow/Spit"
FLOAT; the sudden release of force, explosive energy, which is capable of bouncing the opponent away in full weight. Skillfully applied the opponent will feel like being afloat on water and is easily thrown aside. This is similar to "peng" or ward off in Taichi or I Chuan (dachengquan). In mantis this is trained by the iron ruler being "ginged" and rolled over the forearms - pop it up, catch, roll. This is expressed as fic/ping shu in training. Its the double bridge like insect flicks both arms upward. This is float.

SINK; is more difficult to master because it depends on ones natural ability to learn "feeling" or perceive the opponents exertion of force. He who has mastered this is capable of rendering his opponent completely immobile, thus putting him under absolute control. When the opponent moves one simply sinks the center into him. This is trained in the form sombogin.

SWALLOW; The exertion of flexible force usually in circular manners so that you intercept the opponents blow by causing it slide and miss the target, rather than intercepting it by force against force. This is practiced in all mantis hands.

SPIT; to strike anyway; to strike using the borrowed force of the opponent; to strike in such a way that the opponent feels swallow and spit, sink, float, in one strike. If skillfully applied some say this feels like the opponent is being shocked by electricity. These four characters sum up the secrets of south mantis techniques.<r>

1316<f>08-09-99<f>kevin<f>hkbark@escape.ca<f>Dear Mr. Feld, In some circles, you would be tared and feathered for your openess. However, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Your insights ring with truth, and are remarkable in their clarity. You have certainly advanced my own practice and understanding up several years. I hope the others on this line appreciate your candor. Never heard of float in that context before (floating someone). One of our exercises is called "fao chum Jeung", where one partner stands with one palm facing down, one up. The other person snaps the back of his palm up into his partners hand (fao), then slaps it down (chum) - very painful to both people, to be sure! When one is at an advanced level, you can break boards within this one foot box, using this technique. I had always thought of "fao" as any rising technique, such as a rising wave - what a neat analogy to call it "floating someone!" Thanks! Kevin<r>
1317<f>08-10-

99<f>MFELD<f>pai@bambootemple.com<f>Dear Kevin, your words of appreciation are heartfelt. <r>

1317<f>08-10-99<f>MFeld<f>pai@bambootemple.com<f>In further discussion with my teacher it was stated one should observe the following principles in southern mantis training.

"1) The principle of 3 step offense, defense, counterstrike of the vital points. 18 hand skills are trained. Nine striking methods include phoenix eye fist, palm, finger grab-poke-slice-chop-flick, uppercut fist, hammer fist, elbow, double hand attack. Nine defensive hands cover the centerline, hook down, hook up, cross the center, lead the center, slice the center, palm heel the center, pull the center, capture the center. One motion of the arm may contain 3 or more of these actions without recoiling the arm.

2) The principle of 3 bridges; crushing bridge; swallowing bridge; evading bridge. Intercepting and feeling (sticky) hand are practiced. Crushing Bridge is meeting force with overwhelming force and may take the form of any of the nine offensive hand weapons. One trains one punch one kill intent and drives thru the opponents offensive or defensive action while attacking (defending) with intent to maim or kill. The warrior intent is fundamental in mantis self defense training. One simply crushes through the opponents aggressive action in one motion. Swallowing Bridge is the exertion of flexible force usually in circular manners so that you intercept the opponents blow by causing it slide and miss the target, rather than intercepting it by force against force. Nine defensive hands are practiced. Evading Bridge is "leading the opponent into emptiness." The opponents fists find empty targets. Footwork is emphasized in evasion.

3) The principle of float, sink, swallow and spit." They are other principles such as thought and action one; reeling silk; etc. Someone start a principles thread.<

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

hasayfu

04-18-2001, 08:46 PM

Let me start by asking, what does it matter to non-Hung practioners?

Nejia wrote "Before I go on, let me state that I don't see martial arts as "internal" or "external". I have seen practitioners in each category with qualities of the other. But the use and degree of "sung", "center", and "peng jing" is something that does seem to distinguish the "internal" and "external" arts. "

I agree with this statement. TaiChi emphasizes and represent these concepts differently then Hung Gar but they are there. Then you go about making some statements of missing stuff:

"The internal movement drives the external movement." and "The Yi leads the Qi" - This is taught in Tit Sin and then brought back into the lower forms at a higher level.

"Solid structure" - This is taught at the basic levels of hung gar. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. If we took a random sampling of 1st year Hong Kong Hung Gar students and Taichi students, you would see more solid structure in HG then TC.

"To Hung practitioners every "re-****" their techniques" - What does this mean? Basic Hung Gar uses the whole body.

I could go on but what's the point. Hung Gar is not Tai Chi. There are differences. We are a blend of hard and soft, external and internal. Just because most people never get past the external doesn't mean it's not in the system. I'd suggest they go to the source of Hung Gar in Asia. The Lam and Chiu families are good starts but not the only ones.

If I looked at most TaiChi players, I'd say they are external AND have no martial ability. Look at how many players don't even know what "grand ultimate" refers to. Of course, I'd be completely off base since I have seen and played with high level players. If you haven't touched hands with Lum Jo or someone of his caliber, you don't know Hung Gar.

It's like saying chinese food is only sweet and sour pork and fortune cookies. Two items you would be hard to find in Asia but is considered the staple of chinese cuisine in America. Or saying I look at Ming Tsai (the east meets west guy) or Martin Yan and say they are considered masters of Chinese cuisine so they must know it. Then go to Asia and you will never find a dish that tastes like theirs. Doesn't mean they aren't great chefs or produce good food but they are not representative of the original cuisine. Their western influence has changed it.

I'll end this by saying if you do TaiChi, learn taichi. What point does it make to say what the other styles do or don't do when you are an outsider? I'm merely answering the original question, does Hung Gar blend internal and external concepts? Yes. Whether you see it or choose to ignore it is no concern of mine.

RAF

04-18-2001, 10:25 PM

"Southern styles practice internal and external training from the very beginning. The movements are accompanied by audible breathing, vocalizations, and sounds connected with specific movements. In contrast, northern sytlists concentrate on primarily the physical movement at the beginning. Neigong is introduced at later stages of development because it adds too much complexity at the onset of training. After all, beginners can;t even manager their arms and legs yet."

p. 124 Sword Polishers book, Adam Hsu.

I have only met Adam Hsu once and it lasted no longer than 5 minutes (he signed my book).

A lot of people don't like his book but he is intellectually honest.

Taiji is far too over-valued. Too many practitioners think it is magical.

I don't see how anyone can look at Xing Yi compared with taiji and conclude they are both internal. Xing Yi, taiji, and bagua are always external until the student has enough ability to co-ordinate breathing (inside) with outside (external)movements. This internal/external classification is very problematic.

If you go back to my original post and go into Adam Hsu's website, the article is posted there.

"Scholars in China often use the writings and philosophies of famous people to give credence to and help perpetuate their own ideas. And in this case, after a short time, it appeared as if THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN INTERNAL/EXTERNAL KUNGFU HAD ALWAYS EXISTED. Many books that were written to justify this connection have been translated in other languages and have been responsible for spreading a great deal of misinformation. Many of the authors of kung fu books were never respected in real kungfu circles by those who lacked the skill and expertise to tell the difference. . . .Often these practitioners cannot prove their power against non-believers or give substantiated proof about stories regarding their own connection with adepts who lived around the time of the late Qing and early Republic period. I have met with these genuine older practitioners, however, and only very few claim to have an extraordinary ability; most admit that the stories of their spectualar feats are quite RIDICULOUS AND EXAGGERATED. I do admint there are a few people who can legitimately tap this unkonwn power, but as remarkable as it may appear, it is not remarkable kungfu" pp. 55-56.

The whole issue of internal and taiji, bagua, and xing yi has gotten way out of control. Jou Tsung Hwa was fond of saying that any system, karate included, can be made so-called "internal" by learning to relax and co-ordinate breathing via the dan tien with external movement.

I think what we often see is a lot of hung gar, taiji, xing yi, baji, bagua etc. players playing publicly, playing badly and we erroneously conclude that the system is also that way. Is White Crane internal? There are too many Masters and not enough people practicing in private.

What precisely defines internal? Taiji is great but is way too over-valued. It is one of many good systems that include both so called internal and external training. Again I do not know of any student, within the first year or so of taiji that can legitimately claim they are internal. Take a good look at the beginners---its all external and rightfully so. Watching some of the so-called taiji masters, including the almighty Chen's taiji, has often led me to conclude that these systems are wet-noodle systems. Everyone is trying to be internal and look very silly. Now I seen some who play with structure, smoothness and power but I guarantee a large part of their training is external. It seems that many of us are harshly judging hung gar without seeing someone who plays at the high level.

There are a lot of so-called Masters running around teaching incomplete systems and perpetuating the eventual demise of authentic Chinese martial arts. Is Yi-quan internal or external? About the only thing I can think of as being almost 100% internal is meditation and that is not martial arts

Braden

04-19-2001, 06:57 PM

I have a sneaky suspicion that an "internal art" is not defined by qigong, relaxation, yielding, whole body power, waist movement, meditation, visualization, concentration/focus/spirit, vectoring force from the ground, silk reeling, listening energy, neutralizing energy, soft energy, one ounce defeating 10,000 pounds, or anything else that has been discussed here.

All martial arts have their own versions of these things. Several things which aren't martial arts even have their own versions of these things. It doesn't mean they're all the same thing. Muffins and Easter Island share alot of properties too, but they're clearly different.

That said, I think the most important point that has been made here is "Who cares?" Why are so many people in externally-classified arts so obsessed with saying their art is internal? Why are these the same people who claim there is no difference between external and internal? If there is no difference, why make the claim in the first place? Why are these the same people who claim practitioners of internal-classified arts are elitist? By insisting that all arts are internal among good practitioners, YOU'RE the one making the claim of superiority. Those of us happily training away in our internal-classified styles have made no such claim, or even implication.

Water Dragon

04-19-2001, 07:25 PM

Internal arts are internal because some guy named Sun Lu Tang said so. That is histroically where the classification began :p

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

denali

04-19-2001, 07:55 PM

Braden: I think that we realize that external arts are not purely internal. Of course we use external as well, otherwise they wouldn't be called external arts.
Any post on this thread is just a reply to an Internal martial artist who says that Hung Gar uses no internal. No one's saying that we are superior and no one's claiming that there is no difference between styles.
Just remember that an internal martial artist started this thread.. why does it bother you that we try to speak the truth about what our art really is?

gazza99

04-19-2001, 08:34 PM

Illuisionfist-
I do not expect you to even begin to understand the word "fa-jing"!
Denali-
It does not bother me that hung-gar people try and "speak the truth". It is just bothersome to hear their delusions of grandeur. I have heard many hung-people speak of practicing the internal, but they have failed to demonstrate it. I say put up or shut up....
I hope that of the dozens of schools ive been to throughout the world are only a horrible misrepresentation! I invite anyone who is in my area (oklahoma city)to please come down and teach me some of this hung-gar, this is not a challenge , but a genuine interest. I also get around the states quite often as I fly in the Air force, drop me an email if you have something to offer.
-thank you all for your informative and well thought posts!
Kind regards,
Gary

Subitai

04-20-2001, 02:21 AM

Ok Gary we believe you...

I was just wondering what some of the names of these dozens of world recognized HG schools are:

Surely "Roberts Kenpo/Kung Fu/Aki-jujitsu School"
based in little o'l "Okie from Miscogee" cannot be your resource? Say it isn't so?
We all know what a hot spot for CMA OK is.

I mean, out of those DOZENS of schools you ought to be able to name at LEAST ONE SIFU that you have TOUCHED HANDS with in "Confidence". Right???

So enlighten us, we are willing to convert. Just tell us who it is and we'll go see them for ourselves.

Why should we go to you? We didn't start this. You come to us...and yes it is all just friendly. So don't get ****ed, this is a forum and we all have to right to speak up.

I have touched hands and felt skill from "Sun Jian Yun" (considered one of Chinas top 10 MA) in her day. I have also touched hands with Chu Wai...son of Chu Kao and also seen 1st hand Lams family HG in direct transmission. I know what I know, don't care what other people think.

I been to Chen village(supposed birthplace of TC)They train and bang hard in the early years. Juvenils to adults tossing eachother around like sumo in alot of cases. Very outwardly physical. But they learn that 1st, then progress on to more "internal"

HMMM, doesn't that sound like many other CMA???

So what, mabe they go to an internal level beyond most. The question is truely to what degree of internal? The point is,it's present.

I can see the Chen guys now...but the 4 diamonds are this and that. He'll yeah they kick ass but are not alone. In asswhoopin' or internal.

This whole thread is starting to sound like that Mike Sigman guy from CO on the O'l neija list. He believes no external master can do internal. Hes wrong of course. And he changes his argument to suit himself over time.

Sooo....
It is a shame to say, but many schools out there unscrupulously STEAL/BORROW/BEG thier names and titles. But they do not represent high level.

If you are afraid of naming a school or teacher, then what does that say about you? Live up to your convictions.

If you cannot name anyone? You know the rest.

curious,
"O"

Water Dragon

04-20-2001, 02:31 AM

LOL at Subitai. Did you know that Mike Sigman was kicked off the Yang Familt Taiji site for posting under various names to back up his arguments? Go through some threads on their board and you can see the post where he got busted.

I actually have a sneaking suspicion that may be going on here. I won't name the prime suspects but if you go through old threads you should find some amazing similariteis in the writing styles of three posters. Common uses of grammer, verbage, etc. There's also a lot of argument posted here that is either closely paraphrased or lifted ver batinm from another website.

And who said this site was no fun???

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

Subitai

04-20-2001, 02:45 AM

He is an execellent debater. I got into with him one time on rec.martial arts.

He's very savy. He knows hows to diffuse your best arguments or avoids them entirely. Also he uses all of his followers to do his battles in a sweeping pincher move. And if he's loosing, he'll let everyone battle it out for cannon fodder and then come back strong.

He used to argue to no end that Sun Style TC was not legitimate TC and all the other crap he spouted. Then after long debates I learned my lesson when he slipped up. A friend of mine recieved a covert email from him and he explained how he did in fact do everything just to bust peoples balls. Good old fashion trolling if you ask me.

Don't let me get started about his sigman test.
Later, when others could do it...he then proclaimed it was not an accurate test of internal waste power.

I give him props as a debater though.

gazza99

04-20-2001, 05:08 AM

Subitai, you really should learn how to read more carefully, I did not say i visited "world recognized schools", I simply stated I have visited schools throughout the world. Are you in oklahoma, because I remeber posting that invitation the "anyone in the oklahoma city area". You really should go back to school, I also did imply I would come to you,"as I am in the Air force and travel alot",if it so happens im in someones area sometime, and they would be willing to show me some good hung-gar,then great.
I have only touched hands with one school ,Master Ricky Liturea at Edmonds martial arts academy. I do not write down, or really pay attention to the names of the hung-gag schools I wonder into while im traveling around. Nor do I really "touch hands" with all the teachers. I simply observe. I believe my statement was "I have never SEEN any different".. please read my posts carefully next time before you respond, it is really annoying repeating myself.
Wang T'sung-yeuh was of direct lineage of Chang San-feng ,who recorded the nature of h'ao ch'uan (later called taijquan), this was before the chen village! Also when Yang Lu'ch'an made it to the chen village they were already doing shao-lin style MA. Nowadays chen taijiquan retains the hardness of the shao-lin background and does not have the soft and loose qualitys of Yang style.
Have you ever "touched hands" with any good Yang people? I classify good ,as somone like my instructor Master Erle Montaigue, as I am one of his instructors here in the USA.
Gary

Je Lei Sifu

04-20-2001, 07:34 AM

If you are ever in the Philadelphia, PA area, Please email me. I would love to cross hands with you.

Seeing is not believing, come feel me.

Peace

Je Lei Sifu :cool:

The Southern Fist Subdues The Fierce Mountain Tiger

Subitai

04-20-2001, 10:13 AM

You are answering your own question. A typical retort from someone who said: "I hope that of the dozens of schools ive been to throughout the world are only a horrible misrepresentation! "

Dozens, plural...wow! about 24 schools or more, impressive. Such a keen martial artist, one with sharp eyes. Yet you fail to remember the easiest details. You started the thread, so it is obviously on your mind.

About the OK city stuff. Your are correct, you did say in your area(sniff)...but listen to how you sound? Is it not implied??
It's easy to say come to me when nobody will or it will be unlikely.

Answer this one question: There are at least 5 to 10 main stream(ie in magazines) HG Sifus in the country. Honestly can you name any of them?
Was it a result of meeting one of these gentleman that pushes you to be annoyed by HG students claiming to have even the smallest internal skill???? If you're willing take a private with one of them.

You said: "I have only touched hands with one school, Master Ricky Liturea at Edmonds martial arts academy. I do not write down, or really pay attention to the names of the hung-gag schools I wonder into while im traveling around. Nor do I really "touch hands" with all the teachers. I simply observe. I believe my statement was "I have never SEEN any different"

Ok, so on the basis of one Sifu and visual observation you have come to your conclusion.

Well i'm happy for you. If Master Erle Montaigue has given you the keen foresight and skill to judge so many "Seen and Unrememberable Masters" then I submit defeat. You're a better martial artist then the rest of us.

I wonder who are the elitists now???

Onassis P.

gazza99

04-20-2001, 09:28 PM

Elitist..lol, this thread is now just comical, im sorry if I havent recognized any of your "5-10 Main stream (ie in magazines) HG sifus in the country" WOW if they are in magazines they MUST represent the pinacle of HG!!! And yes given the opportunity I would be willing to take a lesson, from anyone. I do not beleive I said that I am better than all hung-gar people, If I truly beleived that why would I even attempt to learn more about it? "I hope it is a horrible misrepresentation" That is why I started this thread..so I could find out differently.
Is your art so mystical, it has no tangible results ,ie cannot be observed? You must have magic that is only shown in combat..not sparing or training.
I have touched hands with plenty of good internal and external martial artists..(as I classify them) that is whole other debate. The difference is evident,and even from observation it is not difficult to tell how effective they will be.
Gary

Subitai

04-22-2001, 02:36 AM

Yes the subject was HG's internal. Which you complained about on an open forum and you seemingly are not getting the support you were hoping for.

That's your problem. What I said has nothing to do with commercialism. I simply asked if you have experienced both sides of the COIN with masters of both Internal MA and Masters of HG...and you cannot produce enough evidence other than some guy that is not even recognized.(My apologies to him) Your dozens of schools are not believable by any sense of the word if you cannot name at least someone who is considered a 'MASTER OF HG'. I was allowing you to name some mainstream HG teachers just to give you a chance. You failed.

It seems to me you havn't experience both sides and are basing your opinions without the proper research. We don't agree with you so deal with it. You seem to be another product of TC "Almightyism".

I have never deviated from your original thought. Whether HG has as much internal as the big 3 has never been in question. As stated by others within this thread, it is all matter of "to what level of internal".

I refuse to give you high level HG theory because you don't deserve it. But if you say that manipulating and stimulating Organs within the body (for the expressed purpose of health and chi flow), breath control, dan tien manipulation in segments and as a whole, ect, ect, ect. is not internal. Then we have nothing to argue about because you are not educated enough on the subject.

For Peet's sakes, all of the best HG masters from past to present have made their living off "Dit Da" (ie Bone setting and internal medicine) They have a far greater understanding of Chinese medicine and internal theory than you OR YOUR ONE MASTER will ever have. Hung Gar masters have always been famous for 3 things. 1 Martial Skill, Dit Da and Lion Dancing.
They still heal at their dit da clinics even today.

You Mock yourself when you speak of Mystical. Nothing has been Hidden from HG.(plenty of fakes though) but nothing hidden. HG is practically public domain. All of it has been documented for along time.

It is the TC players who mystify everything. For example, guys like you pose other styles a test. As soon as a non TC person can do even the slightest skill comparable to a more internally focused style...you guys try to up the stakes and say "you don't have a clue". It's all ego and Mystical that you guys put together just to try and live up to legends long gone.

Kung Fu theory in all it's forms is just hard work and intelligence when you boil it down . It is you guys who practically bring in the supernatural.

Nobody said HG is in the big three internals but get a clue. And that goes for many many other styles represented here. All the other serious styles with a long documented history...Ah forget it you waste my time.

gazza99

04-22-2001, 04:01 AM

Thank you for that, I am now enlightened! But please be consistant in your rantings, "mainstream" HG masters in Maginzines Is NOT commercialism-check your dictionary,and WHEN did you ask me if ive expierianced "both sides of the coin? "I have been reading your other posts and cannot find that one? Maybe you should go back and edit it! I have made it clear, that I have seen plenty of HG! Maybe I have just seen these fakes?Oh wait they were not mainstream I suppose they dont count anyway. Next time I see a really good one in Kung-fu magazine ill be sure to attend a class if im around!
Im sorry if you do not believe that there are dozens of HG schools that have no clue about the internal. Instead of spending all of your energy ranting, and trying to disprove my expieriances, why dont you provide more evidence? you started to be helpfull? Maybe give some good web site addresses or something? That would be the smart thing to do.
"even the slightest skill comparible to a more internally focused style" -is that all hung-gar has for internal, the "slightest skill?" I have not seen it, maybe someday I will. It is just aggravating when you people try to preach -(see above) like HG SHOULD be in the big three internals!! It will never be even close, so stop bull****#ng yourselves! AHH forget it you waste my time....

neijiachuan

04-22-2001, 05:04 AM

Hi Hasayfu,

You wrote earlier the following...."I'll end this by saying if you do TaiChi, learn taichi. What point does it make to say what the other styles do or don't do when you are an outsider? I'm merely answering the original question, does Hung Gar blend internal and external concepts? Yes. Whether you see it or choose to ignore it is no concern of mine." ---Hasayfu, why do we even have this website for MA conversation then?

Listen...All I was stating was some of the aspects of the what I believe to be used in the internal arts. Look at the list carefully, there are several things that I did not mention. If you feel that Hung uses these same principles in the same way as internal styles, than more power to you. This forum is used to discuss CMA, to learn and perhaps possibly make friends, not enemys.

Neijia

Esteban

04-22-2001, 05:36 AM

Hi Subitai,

you wrote:

"It is the TC players who mystify everything. For example, guys like you pose other styles a test. As soon as a non TC person can do even the slightest skill comparable to a more internally focused style...you guys try to up the stakes and say "you don't have a clue". It's all ego and Mystical that you guys put together just to try and live up to legends long gone."

I don't know if the TC guys who first brought the "mystical" into the Chinese martial arts. It's at least as old, or young, as the belief of some Boxers that special training would allow their bodies to withstand bullets. I'd agree that tjq has been associated with New Age mysticism and that that's why many people take it up. And, imo, you're right if you mean that there are many who think that they can acquire skill through the development of some mystical, unexplainable power, rather than through hard training. Well, they exist in the thq community, and in others, and they may be the majority --because often they are just what people want-- but they are certainly not the only members of the tjq community. There are those, many of whom have never heard of M. Sigman or any other person who has ever posted on the internet, who never talk about anything mystical.

Best,
Esteban

hasayfu

04-22-2001, 10:19 AM

For neijia, I've never attacked you personally so I don't see why you are telling me to re-read your posts. You stated several aspects of your definition of internal and I agreed with your first statement and said Hung Gar does all the ones you listed. Now you say you left some stuff out so it's still not internal. Fine, I'm willing to discuss this but it doesn't seem like anyone here wants to. They just want to say Hung Gar doesn't have it. OK, it's probably true that the Hung Gar you have all seen doesn't have it. Doesn't mean the original style doesn't have it. (whatever IT is) That's the jist of my post.

I should really go back to Gary and ask what is his purpose of posing the question? He wrote, "Is anyone else sick of people claiming this? Or does anyone have evidence to the contrary?" Well he's gotten his answer but to be expilicit, yes, I'm sick of people looking at a very small sampling and claiming they know the system. He wanted evidence to the contrary and he's gotten a bunch but looks like he's chosing to ignore it. Now who's trying to make enemies and not discuss.

My comment about about the Taichi folks no concern of mine is in repsonse to the attitude that Hung Gar is insecure so we have to 'make-up" this internal stuff. I won't sit back and let some people say it's not there when it is. Past that, I'm also not going to get into a my art is better then your art or you don't have the "real (TM) internal" arguement when people don't want to discuss "real (TM) specifics."

So to all the folks who have posted. You want to discuss the internals of Hung Gar, we can do that. You want to just find a way to prove that it doesn't exist? That's not a discussion.

I also challenge you to show me one statement where I've insulted someone or otherwise tried to make an enemy. Don't hate me just because I'm right :p

RAF

04-22-2001, 05:58 PM

The crux of the problem is that no one has found an acceptable definition of internal. All we have to do is to define it and then compare each system to the definition. Presto! There's your answer. But the definition is hard to come by.

All movement requires some flow of qi otherwise you are dead. From that point, everything is now a matter of degree--do we use the mind to lead the qi? Is that internal? When does that phase of training come about? Does that exclude the so-called external styles or hard styles/ I once read in the martial arts dictionary (1980 reference) that GoJu Ryu (hard/soft karate) highest forms were Xing I and bagua. That sure sounds like one system of karate is internal.

I started in the so-called internals and continue heavy in the practice of what we call internal. In my experience, most of problems start with those practicing internal. They seem to take a moral high ground (including the early days of my own practice). A lot of this can be attributable to a misreading of Zheng Manqing. I have had the honor of practicing with some of his 3rd generation students and indeed, they have done pretty good with pushing hands. But if you read Zheng Manqing's writings, there was a lot training he received that never made it public or passed on to his students. Robert Smith should know better than to write about the softness and then exclude what is necessary for fighting. Of course, at its most highest levels, techniques vanishes into free form. But to get beginners started on this path has been a critical mistake. Most of the taiji players who dabble in it, delude themselves into believing they can fight or use it for self defense. They often criticize the hard styles because they equate hard work, stance training to the external and pooh pooh it because are practicing the soft way, the secret way, Ahhh yesss, takes longer but yield enlightenment. They BS themselves about their training schedules. Even the Yang Cheng Fu players and masters talk about many auxiliary training methods and the need to play and train for hours on end. There is a lot people who talk the talk and trip on the talk, choking themselves.

We don't know what internal really means and those that we see in public are often a poor example of the system. Zheng Manqing was correct---faith, faith and more faith