Choy Lee Fut's Dragon techniques

[hskwarrior]

Ok, in light of the other section of this forum, i wanted to post some pictures of what we do. right now i don't have any film available, but the photo's will do.

in the 4 photos my sifu is showing how to use the dragon against someone trying to grab you around the waist.

i look forward to any videos and photo's all are invited to post in regards to the topic.

hope you like.

hsk

[Havick01]

Hsk thats a very good way to use dragon techniques, you can also use that same technique grab kicks and punches.. Good bone braking technique.

Havick

[Infrazael]

Hey sihing didn't you guys learn stuff similar to that in 5 Animal Form?

Welcome by the way.

[hskwarrior]

thanks, havic,

is mak hin fai your sifu?

if so he and my sifu know each other.

thanks for your comments, and yeah we would do that just as you said.

same thing only smaller circle can be done when someone is trying to stab you.

again.

thanks.

[hskwarrior]

can you guys see the pictures?

it usually shows how many times a photo has been viewed.

[GreenCloudCLF]

So if an MMA guy shoots in on me I can break his neck????

But I can't do that in the ring, so it must not be a valid technique:rolleyes:

[Infrazael]

So if an MMA guy shoots in on me I can break his neck????

But I can't do that in the ring, so it must not be a valid technique:rolleyes:

Umm. . . . . . . . . thanks for that completely useless piece of info.

Why don't you step into the cage or ring and tell us how it goes?

Exactly my ****ING point.

[CLFNole]

I don't think sarcasm reads well for some reason. :D

[GreenCloudCLF]

Umm. . . . . . . . . thanks for that completely useless piece of info.

Why don't you step into the cage or ring and tell us how it goes?

Exactly my ****ING point


I'm sorry did I miss something where I insulted a CLF player???

Last time I checked I was a CLF player!!!

Someone has their panties in quite a bunch....

Maybe wearing a thong??!?!?:eek:

[GreenCloudCLF]

I don't think sarcasm reads well for some reason. :D

I had the rolley eyes thing....I think the Traditionalists are a little on edge recently...

[Fu-Pow]

Hey sihing didn't you guys learn stuff similar to that in 5 Animal Form?

Welcome by the way.

Nope our Ng Ying doesn't really have much in the way of dragon. I have a book on the Lung Ying form it has this technique which is called something like "Dragon Grabs the Pearl" or something. I wasn't sure of the application but I figured it was something like this where you grab the head. Thanks for posting that Frank.

[Fu-Pow]

Umm. . . . . . . . . thanks for that completely useless piece of info.

Why don't you step into the cage or ring and tell us how it goes?

Exactly my ****ING point.

I think he's just pointing out that this is a technique which could not be used in the ring because it's main application is to break the neck.

Which points to the fact wu3 shu4/ mou4 seut literally means military art (like to be used in war to kill/maim people) and not a sport.

There's a lot to be learned from sport but a lot of the content of wu3 shu4/mou4 seut was never intended for sport.

[Infrazael]

I think he's just pointing out that this is a technique which could not be used in the ring because it's main application is to break the neck.

Which points to the fact wu3 shu4/ mou4 seut literally means military art (like to be used in war to kill/maim people) and not a sport.

There's a lot to be learned from sport but a lot of the content of wu3 shu4/mou4 seut was never intended for sport.

Absolutely agreed. Which is why I've been reading much on the philosophy of Miyamoto Musashi and his WAY of the sword (which can be transferred to the Fist as easily) -- that the TRUE AIM of OUR CMA, that is CLF, is to maim and destroy the opponent. That is what I try to get across. But I'm with you 100%, I believe that the CURRENT MMA CONTEXT is the best ****ing training tool WE HAVE. What better way to pressure test our Fist than have someone trying to submit you, and you know little in the ways of submission wrestling?

How will use your CLF then? How will you fight a wrestler? How will you fight a boxer, Thai boxer, etc? You will be FORCED to change and adapt; flow and evolve. I STRONGLY BELIEVE this is GOOD for CLF, as it will FORCE you to adapt and use your CLF based on situational levels, and the levels of necessity.

What I am saying in regards to Green Clouds comment is the sarcastic implication that MMA, NHB etc is somehow "so limiting" to his arsenal of techniques that he can't use the "d34dly neck break". . . . . . . .


I'm sorry did I miss something where I insulted a CLF player???

Last time I checked I was a CLF player!!!

Someone has their panties in quite a bunch....

Maybe wearing a thong??!?!?

I am a CLF player to the core buddy. I train the so-called "lethal techniques" just as you do. But I am ****ING DISGUSTED by the way so many traditionalists are presenting themselves (no one here in particular, as this forum has some actually sane people) as in the "my style" or "my technique" is "too d34dly for the ring/cage" and "therefore I will lose."

This sort of mentality is a hindrance to the growth of CMA, does not prove ****, and leads to just bad practice overall IMHO. It is the FACT that not every situation will be at your advantage. You might get attacked after getting smacked in the head in a bar; you might get the jump on you by a gang at night.

You'll be disadvantaged. You might not have the time to pull some "deadly neck break." You might have a knife sticking in on arm, making it useless. What will you do then? Your "deadly techniques" are nullified, so oh no, we're SCREWED!!!

If our Art was to kill. . . .destroy. . . . . you'd think that the technique would also work perfectly well within a sport context, a "regimented" contex. . . . . . . paradigms that have rules & regulations, but to the point where pull a "deadly technique" isn't really an issue at hand.

Let's say the DO allow that neck crank of yours. OK, no problem. MMA fighter shoots. You try to defend. Do you sprawl or what? I have no clue.

Most likely, he takes you down. MMA fighter preceeds to escape your guard (that's if you have one) and proceeds to gain side control or mount. If you have zero ground game, it's pretty much a mount like taking candy from a baby.

MMA fighter mounts. MMA fighter preceeds to pin your arms down, making them useless. MMA fighter then proceeds to A) Ground n Pound your face with a flurry of elbows and fists, or B) submit you. Mostly like a combination.

You'd think I was a MMA fanatic and hated TCMA, or CLF. Not the case at all. But thinking that you have the skillsets to defend against every situation, ESPECIALLY those that TCMA typically NEGLECTS (disagree if you will, but I don't think CMA really concentrates on sprawling, groundfighting, submissions, GnP, etc). If you can't play the submission or wrestling game, you will lose.

You used one scenario and one potential defense that I believe was not very realistic. Sorry if I sounded harsh or egotistical; I'm simply extremely aggravated. So again, no personal attacks. Just my opinions, based upon personal experiences.

Again, without offending, Peace.

[hskwarrior]

see how an innocent thread can go sour?:mad:

thanks guys!!! i mean infrazael and GreenCloudCLF you both are clf guys, and its true, if mma doesn't do it or is not allowed to do it they believe it is not worthy.
but my sifu is the real deal, and if you watch his fu jow on my classmates face it never moves even when he hits the ground. this technique has two purposes, one to break the neck, or two fllip over an unwilling opponent.

anyones head turning that far around will flip over.

fu pow, as havic said, you can catch the foot the top hand grabs the top part of the foot while the bottom twists the heel of the foot snapping the ankle of tossing him over. this has been used alot in san shou with Cung Le.

but please, if we are choy lee fut brothers, regardless of individual opinions we still represent choy lee fut. and if someone who is a CLF disciple i hope he doesn't turn his back on his system for the glory of MMA. CLF has been around longer is and is the epitimy of what MMA really is.

MMA i believe should be stuff from this and that what works, what doesn't for the ring. but in life, Choy Lee Fut only the best was extrapulated and then developed into our great system.

i never posted those photo's for you all to biatch and complain.

ninja please!!!!!;)

[hskwarrior]

infrazael,

i will be the first to say you are not choy lee fut to the bone, buddy. if you were you would know that any and all techniques can be used if you train to use it.

i hear you talk and you have traded you CLF in for a pair of boxing gloves.

you are thinking too much and anticpating a very rare occurance. i'll bet you you probably have never really had to use what ever CLF you claim to have. i'm not apologizing since i never meant this thread to go ugly.

you have obviously lost your CLF heart, don't be mad at me, re-read your posts.
so when I ---me -----frank of the hung sing kwoon----say that the choy lee fut i practice is not for the ring, but for street survival purposes but you keep referring to the ring you sound like you have no confidence to kick arse out in the streets.

somewhere you have lost the love or you think your sifu never taught you much, but to hear you speak i think you have been disappointed with your choy lee fut somewhere. well, i'm not , my sifu is not , my students are not.

why are you?:confused:

[hskwarrior]

im reading your post about changing and adapting, that has nothing to do with the system you are learning. look at chuck lidell, he was a student of Mu Duk Kwan and traditional system and he is a champ.

changing and adapting is something you as a fighter need to learn. its not the style. if you rely on the style you will lose. if you take what you think is the best working for you and turn that into something thats fine.

my sifu taught a professional boxer choy lee fut who used a few techniques in that ring to win his fights.

any good martial artsist will realize that the emphasis on ring fighting is totally and completely different that street combat. if you don't see that ask your sifu why.

im glad i have a sifu that knows his stuff, and has used it in the streets. he passed on that knowledge on to me and me to my students.

stop all the hating and work it out with you clf brothers.

[hskwarrior]

man im on a roll now and need to smoke some good green cali weed.;)

let me ask some questions.........answer truthfully.

1) Are MMA fighter allowed to break an opponents neck during a ufc match?

2) Can MMA fighter use things like the Tiger Claw while in the clinch to gain the advantage?

3) if one is in a bad position in the ring and the only way he knows how to escape is dirty tricks, are those allowed (like eye gouges, flesh ripping _maiming)?

4) Has a referee just stood by watching the mayhem while a MMA fighter continues to stomp an unconscious person?

5) how many of you have watche those videos on the forums that show some real hardcore street fights where people get knocked out so bad the get put to sleep? ok, so how many times does that happen in MMA?

Well, it does in the streets and sometimes much worse.

oh,

6) are there any multiple fighter matches in any of the ring matches?

in the streets as a fighter, i feel since i train my CLF for survival reasons only i feel i have more material to work with than if i was training strictly for ring fighting.

I never said rings fights were useless. not at all. it has its place in the world of martial arts. the uniqueness of each type is what makes martial arts so great.

[Infrazael]

infrazael,

i will be the first to say you are not choy lee fut to the bone, buddy. if you were you would know that any and all techniques can be used if you train to use it.

i hear you talk and you have traded you CLF in for a pair of boxing gloves.

you are thinking too much and anticpating a very rare occurance. i'll bet you you probably have never really had to use what ever CLF you claim to have. i'm not apologizing since i never meant this thread to go ugly.

you have obviously lost your CLF heart, don't be mad at me, re-read your posts.
so when I ---me -----frank of the hung sing kwoon----say that the choy lee fut i practice is not for the ring, but for street survival purposes but you keep referring to the ring you sound like you have no confidence to kick arse out in the streets.

somewhere you have lost the love or you think your sifu never taught you much, but to hear you speak i think you have been disappointed with your choy lee fut somewhere. well, i'm not , my sifu is not , my students are not.

why are you?:confused:

I haven't lost anything. I gain more experience from cross training; I learn how to apply what I was taught under pressure, under pressure from different types of attacks that weren't covered before; I learn different skill sets.

I never said MMA replaces CLF. I use and learn it as a complimentary system -- mostly for the Thai Boxing and the Submissions.

As for your street fighting talk, I haven't forgotten what I've been taught. I haven't forgotten rolling chop choys to the bottom of the throat, I haven't forgotten sau and kup choys to the ears, or fu jows to the face. Hell, I constantly practice those moves on the heavy bag.

But if you think I'm somehow "betraying" CLF. . . . . . . you are entitled to do that. I will respectfully and maturely reply that I humbly disagree with your assessment, and that my personal MA training is to become as efficient as possible, with the most resistance possible.

I haven't forgotten the mentality of CLF. I do realize, much like Fu-Pow, that the "street" and the "ring" are indeed two different games altogether. I never stated that MMA was even intended for the street. I'm saying that THOSE (again, not you Frank, since you obviously pressure test your Art and Fist) OTHER PEOPLE in the CMA community who constantly spout the "too deadly" phrase is doing CMA a disfavor. . . . . . .

Like you said, this is my personal growth. Like it or not, agree or not, it is still my growth.

But I would also humbly ask you to stop antagonizing me as committing some sort of "treason" against CLF. . . . . . . . . . . if you know me you should know that my CLF obsession is what keeps me going. It's for CLF that I started MMA. It's all to improve my CLF. I didn't "drop" CLF for a pair of boxing gloves my friend. Boxing is not being detrimental; it's teaching me some different methods of punching that are DIFFERENT than CLF punching, adding to my arsenal. Same with Thai Boxing and Submissions. They are extrea WEAPONS that I can, and will seek to utilize in a situation.

My ultimate goal is for the "street." The Ring/Cage is merely the best testing tool IMO for what we have learned.

And Frank, sorry about this. I was merely angry at the fact that Green Cloud seemed to be spouting the typical "we are too deadly" rhetoric. . . . . . . whether this is TRUE OR NOT, it's what I PERCIEVED.

If I offended Frank, I apologize.
If I offended Green Cloud, I apologize.
If I offended anyone else, and they somehow think me of being "traitor" then I humbly apologize. I'm sorry I have given the impression of that, but I will not change my training methods, which seek to blend the old and new.

Peace to y'all CLFers out there.

Infrazael

[Fu-Pow]

Why doesn't everybody just take a deep breath and chill the fizuck out.
:o

Infrazreal I hear what you're saying. I mean, I'm the one that's been encouraging people to spar at Sifu's.

However, realize how ridiculous the extreme opposite side of the "too deadly" argument sounds.......ie.."if you don't compete in MMA/NHB/Full Contact then you don't know how to fight."

The truth is that there all kinds of shades of gray here...it's not black and white.

People incorporate contact on all kinds of levels into their training. There are people that have lots of real life street experience but not a lot of ring experience. There are people that by virtue of there natural strength, dispostion and size are good fighters with little ring experience. There are contact drills that build speed and reaction time that aren't full contact free sparring.

Bottom line is that the more experience you get with an opponent in front of you (even willing) the better you're going to get......but I reject the notion that you need to be a "professional full contact fighter" in order to know how to handle yourself.

Just remember this, every fighter has an off day, even the best. So no matter which way you train there are no guarantees....for anyone.

If you approach your training with this attitude in mind then the rest will take care of itself. Think of it as "agnostic," (as in a-gnostic or "not knowing") kung fu training. It's also known as approaching training with an empty cup.

FP

[Shaolindynasty]

That's actually one of the first techniques in our form Siu Ching Kuen

[Infrazael]

Why doesn't everybody just take a deep breath and chill the fizuck out.
:o

Infrazreal I hear what you're saying. I mean, I'm the one that's been encouraging people to spar at Sifu's.

However, realize how ridiculous the extreme opposite side of the "too deadly" argument sounds.......ie.."if you don't compete in MMA/NHB/Full Contact then you don't know how to fight."

The truth is that there all kinds of shades of gray here...it's not black and white.

People incorporate contact on all kinds of levels into their training. There are people that have lots of real life street experience but not a lot of ring experience. There are people that by virtue of there natural strength, dispostion and size are good fighters with little ring experience. There are contact drills that build speed and reaction time that aren't full contact free sparring.

Bottom line is that the more experience you get with an opponent in front of you (even willing) the better you're going to get......but I reject the notion that you need to be a "professional full contact fighter" in order to know how to handle yourself.

Just remember this, every fighter has an off day, even the best. So no matter which way you train there are no guarantees....for anyone.

If you approach your training with this attitude in mind then the rest will take care of itself. Think of it as "agnostic," (as in a-gnostic or "not knowing") kung fu training. It's also known as approaching training with an empty cup.

FP

I second you brother. Note I NEVER stated that you HAVE to compete in MMA to "know how to fight." In fact I think several people (I think you know who) at our Kwoon have learned how to handle themselves quite well (Jin and those Mexicans remember?), at least decently well in the street.

I simply state that it's the most realistic setting to spar; train under as far as "realism" goes. . . . . . . . I mean, be real now. I've heard many kung fu say how their stuff is deadly. . . . . then they put on the San Shou gloves. . . . and from the video clips I've seen (won't say of which school) they really look like bad kickboxing with good throws (bad striking, good throws. hmmmm.). But. . . . . I see the ref stopping the fight 3 seconds into the Clinch?

Come on now!!! What's the meaning of this?!? On "the street" no one's going to stop the clinch? You're going to get elbowed, kneed, headbutted, fu jowed, chop choyed, etc. . . . . . . . . .

But does that stop me from fighting under San Shou rules? Of course not!!! San Shou is fun, I like being able to sweep and trip and throw, even though I suck at it. I view it as another part of training. I don't view it as detrimental at all!!!

Same with the MMA, Muay Thai or Boxing rules. When you fight under one of these, it FORCES you to adapt to the situation at hand. In the end, you're honing DIFFERENT skillsets, which all add up together. For example, in MT you can't do hip throws, which forces you to perfect your sweeps and trips, and your elbows and knees in the Clinch. In Boxing, it forces you to punch well, learn to bob/weave/fade/roll/slip and counterattack, parrying, catching, etc. In MMA you learn how to combine striking with wrestling, and submission, and of course ground n pound. . . .. but without being an expert at any of those. With MMA you fight in a well-rounded format.

As CLF fighters we should seek out and explore these formats, and test our Fist against it. Am I saying drop CLF? HELL ****ING NO. CLF is my favorite; it will always be my most beloved Fist. . . . Art. I can't live without my Poon Kiu Sau Choys, my Gwa-Kups, Rolling Chop Choys. . . . . . .

But, as a CLF man, as someone who stresses and believes in the evolution of an Art, I believe that we should open our eyes to new possibilities. Don't just confine yourself to one set of rules, one setting. . . . . if you're training purely for "self-defense" and is very focused on drills, try sparring. If you just spar, do some drills. If you do MMA, learn to fight without grappling. If you do Brazilian JiuJutsu, learn to fight a striker. If you're a Thai Boxer learn to just box. . . . improve your punching. If you're San Shou, learn to clinch, learn to elbow and knee more efficiently.

Guys. . . "the street" isn't some sort of lava-filled, molten rocks, broken glass,

Sihing Fu-Pow, just to make things VERY CLEAR I never said, nor did I intend to say, you MUST be a "professional fighter to know how to fight." Even at the MMA place, the MAJORITY are hobbyists. There are kids. There are older men. There are girls, women. The Majority do it to stay fit, have fun, and learn in a good atmosphere.

And I agree 100% about the TWO EXTREMES. Side A) You MUST do MMA/NHB or else you can't fight!!!! TMA is crap!!! Die Kung Fu DIE!!!!

Side B) Kung Fu is TEH DEADLY DUDE!!! MMA is NOT STREET!!! MMA will get killed in a "REAL FIGHT." NHB IS ARTIFICIAL!!! THEY CAN'T ACTUALLY FIGHT!!!

Take one stance, and you're being an ass, a moron, and a devolutionist. You're causing the disintegration of Martial Arts as a whole, be it boxing or kung fu, karate or judo.

I HATE both sides. I HATE the MMA folks who think their stuff is the end-all to everything. I HATE the Kung Fu cat who spouts his own deadliness because of his Ego. Ego is the issue at hand. Some people are just plain too arrogant to admit that their way of training ISN'T PERFECT, that they can ALWAYS IMPROVE.

Other times, it's the whole stereotype. All Kung Fu is pussies, nerds, weaklings. All MMA/NHB are blood-thirsty, violent, convicted criminals.

Guys. . . . that's not it. Both sides have arrogant ones, both sides have humble ones. What got me was Green Cloud's behavior: blatant, nonsensical blabbering in regards to MMA. I mean, don't tell something they suck. If you think you can handle yourself well in the Cage. . . . . by all means try it. And don't complain about the rules. If you can't kill them, that means they can't kill you either.

And trust me, there are headlocks in Submissions that if used with a slightly different angle, will break your poor little throat. If you don't think so then go to a class and learn some head cranks. Even if people like Green Cloud "can kill" someone, whether he'll even get a chance is another matter as well. Most likely, he'll go for it, fail, then get pounded in the face.

I may come off as angry and arrogant, but I'm trying hard not to be. I seek only to promote CLF, improve CLF, and improve myself. If learning Submission will improve my game, then SO BE IT. I wonder, if Chan Heung was alive, and he saw Royce Gracie manhandling people twice his size, would be become interested in the system? I can't speak for Chan Heung, but I'm guessing. . . . YES. He would become interested in it, as it presents something totally different from what he's doing.

REMEMBER: It's the HIGHLY PROBABLE techniques that take the most precedence. Not some esoteric dim mak, death attack, eye gouge, etc. . . . . . You should train your Low Risk Attacks, and use those more since the probability of them succeeding is so much higher.

High Risk Attacks such as flying knees, spinning elbows, flying pantherfists, eye gouges, etc. . . . . will NOT SUCCEED most of the time. They can expose you, leave you open, leave you flanked, etc. That's why they're HIGH RISK ATTACKS.

So in other words, a neck break, which must be executed in a specific way, will be MUCH HARDER to pull off correctly and precisely than a knee to the face.

Not that the neck break won't work; you might just be skilled enough that you can do it precisely and quickly. But if the other fighter is of relatively equal skill, using a high risk vs. low risk attack is simply foolish.

I hope I didn't come off as some egotistical *******. I really don't. But I'm trying to make my statement. Disagree if you will, but please keep the peace.

Peace

[GreenCloudCLF]

One of the reasons CLF is such a great style is its adaptablility. It can change an morph at the drop of a hat to deal with whatever scenario may be presented.

My sarcastic comment earlier is in regard to MMA people who, just as HSK pointed out, say anything not able to be used in a ring is not worth learning. The fact I chose 1 application (which was demonstrated through photos) and made a comment. I have been training in CLF long enough to see that techniques and realize the other varied applications as well. Including the other 2 spoken of on this thread.

If you have such a har d on(I wonder if that word will get censored) for MMA thats cool. One of my instructors LOVES MMA and all it involves. Me, I'm not a big fan. It's not that I don;t think MMA guys are great martial artsists, they have very good knowledge. Not to mention the size of their sacs for getting into the cage to begin with. However, it is not the be all and end all of training.

If attacked on the street, would I rather know how to break a guys neck, or not have that weapon? The more you know, the more you train, the better off you are. Knowing the Dragon Plays with Ball technique puts you in a position to break a neck...and if it is a gang jump, you have every right to kill one, as you are now in fear for your life.

As for the little passive agressive comments about my ground skill....which I shall quote

Let's say the DO allow that neck crank of yours. OK, no problem. MMA fighter shoots. You try to defend. Do you sprawl or what? I have no clue.

Most likely, he takes you down. MMA fighter preceeds to escape your guard (that's if you have one) and proceeds to gain side control or mount. If you have zero ground game, it's pretty much a mount like taking candy from a baby.


While CMA is my bread an butter CLF/Lama is what I train...using only these skills I was able to best a state champion wrestler on the ground. I was younger and stupid, had he challenged me today it would be stand up too (no use playing on his turf). Now you may say beating a State Champion wrestler is not a big deal...and I agree I jaked him up quick, but my point is, not all CMA guys have no ground game. In fact, I believe, the more you train in CMA the more you get a feel for body positioning and the like, which is invaluable on the ground. It's like trapping but closer.

In closing, you have your opinion, and I have mine. You are welcome to yours. But when you fly off the handle over a 1 line back handed comment I made in jest (see the :rolleyes: ?) am I to take you seriously? This is a concern I have about these whole internet relations...We want to discuss a topic and people are more likely, due to the anonymity of the internet, to fly and begin issuing insults, vulgar comments and threats...and guess what, it does nothing to further your position. Only makes you look like an overinflated paper tiger...

[GreenCloudCLF]

High Risk Attacks such as flying knees, spinning elbows, flying pantherfists, eye gouges, etc. . . . . will NOT SUCCEED most of the time. They can expose you, leave you open, leave you flanked, etc. That's why they're HIGH RISK ATTACKS.

So in other words, a neck break, which must be executed in a specific way, will be MUCH HARDER to pull off correctly and precisely than a knee to the face.

Not that the neck break won't work; you might just be skilled enough that you can do it precisely and quickly. But if the other fighter is of relatively equal skill, using a high risk vs. low risk attack is simply foolish.

Martial Arts is like finance...the greater the risk the greater the reward...

If I am jumped by a gang, as you posited earlier in the thread. And one guys shoots in on me, and 3 more are coming, what should I do? Knee him in the face, that means he's still there and there are still 3 more guys. Let him take me to the ground??? Or break his neck, then work on the next three????

And then what about the eye gouge being a high risk technique? if I Biu some one to the eyes, it has the same risk as a jab or cross???? I'm leaving the same opening?? Why not blind the attacker instead?

[hskwarrior]

GreencloudCLF,

Infrazeal is very passionate about his skills and his style, and i can see where he's coming from. if a choy lee fut school claims to be a fighting school but all they do is practice forms all day, i would be skeptical too when it came to fighting.

but you are right to see it the way you do. its the same way i see it. but when it comes to being jumped by 4 people or more, i would try to fight each and every one. i would know that the odds are against me and unless i get some lucky blows and drop those fools i believe that the only option i have is to grab the nearest one and beat the shet out of him, and when they start pounding me i grab that neck and hold on for dear life. if i gotta go, then i need some company and im taking one of them with me.

seriously, in that situation i would be using all the dirty tricks from eye guages to stun them for a second which would allow me to throw some more techniques. i;d kick scratch, bite, pull hair, throw some dirt, hit them with garbage cans, newspaper stands or anything at my arms grad which may help me win against such bad odds.

rest assured GreencloudCLF you're right and your sifu is training you right as well.

hsk

[hskwarrior]

GreencloudCLF,

Infrazeal is very passionate about his skills and his style, and i can see where he's coming from. if a choy lee fut school claims to be a fighting school but all they do is practice forms all day, i would be skeptical too when it came to fighting.

but you are right to see it the way you do. its the same way i see it. but when it comes to being jumped by 4 people or more, i wouldnt try to fight each and every one. i would know that the odds are against me and unless i get some lucky blows and drop those fools i believe that the only option i have is to grab the nearest one and beat the shet out of him, and when they start pounding me i grab that neck and hold on for dear life. if i gotta go, then i need some company and im taking one of them with me.

seriously, in that situation i would be using all the dirty tricks from eye guages to stun them for a second which would allow me to throw some more techniques. i;d kick scratch, bite, pull hair, throw some dirt, hit them with garbage cans, newspaper stands or anything at my arms grad which may help me win against such bad odds.

rest assured GreencloudCLF you're right and your sifu is training you right as well.

hsk

[Fu-Pow]

I second you brother. Note I NEVER stated that you HAVE to compete in MMA to "know how to fight."

I'm not saying that you did but I'm pointing out the other ridiculous extreme..... because as ridiculous as the "too deadly" argument sounds this sounds just as ridiculous.....and I don't here a lot of MMA people saying this....just like I don't hear a lot of TCMA people using the "too deadly" argument.

IMO it's a "straw man" argument that the MMA fanatics put up so they can easily knock it down. Any martial artist worth his salt will tell you that you need some level of contact training....the form and intensity of that contact is what all the argument is about.

Furthermore, there are a lot of reasons that people don't "compete" that don't have anything to do with there skill level or ability. Maybe it's ethical reasons, concerns about being able to go to work the next day, etc. etc. You can say that's an "excuse" but it might be a very valid excuse.




I simply state that it's the most realistic setting to spar; train under as far as "realism" goes. . . . . . . . I mean, be real now. I've heard many kung fu say how their stuff is deadly. . . . . then they put on the San Shou gloves. . . . and from the video clips I've seen (won't say of which school) they really look like bad kickboxing with good throws (bad striking, good throws. hmmmm.). But. . . . . I see the ref stopping the fight 3 seconds into the Clinch?

What is "real?" What is realistic? OK, now we're getting into some pretty deep philosophical issues. In many ways this mirrors the conflict between science and religion. What the MMA crowd (I use that label very loosely) wants is a "martial science." They want peer-viewed empirical evidence (ie sensimotor data that you can see, hear, taste, touch or smell) to back up any abstract martial theory. So they've set up a controlled lab environment like a "lab" (ie MMA, NHB events) in which to test theory against hard empirical evidence.

That's science as far as I'm concerned. Nothing is taken on faith. It demands from day one in your training that you can see it, hear it, taste it, touch it, smell it.

However, IMO what it is lacking is any depth or variety. It lacks any abstraction of principles or an underlying theory that would allow it to be applied to multiple situations. This what TCMA brings to the table because layers upon, layers of empirical human experience have been recorded, abstracted and put into these forms, techniques, drills, health exercises, principles, etc. K

However, because of that very nature I believe that it can also be adapted to the ring. Some of it that is. The layers of experience that have been put into these forms also include aspects which are from another point in time where health and self-defense were primary concern over "fighting" or sport. So that stuff has to be unpacked very carefully because it is intended to kill or maim.

In some ways you can empirically verify that it "works." Your Sifu can give empirical evidence in the form of twisting your arm or neck. You can feel the pain or pressure on the joint or that you suddenly have no balance. But it's very difficult to train this stuff in a fast "pressure" situation like MMA because IF it works the likelihood that someone could get seriously injured is very high.

Other stuff you can "unpack" and use in the ring. Some you can't and you have to use your IMAGINATION and find other ways to train it. For example, look at the CLF dummies, there are like 18 different dummys that let you go full blast against solid wood and sandbags. That's an imaginative way to train things that you would never want to do on another person.

But because we can't test something under certain set of "labratory conditions" does it mean we throw it out all together?God I hope not. I think that would be really stupid because it might be something that we need in a different set of conditions.

If we can't get something to work in the ring or under other conditions then I believe it should be shelved.

IMO what MMA or any other combat sport brings to the table is an opportunity to test certain techniques under "pressure"( meaning time constraints and threat of pain or injury.) That can be valuable but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

FP

[Havick01]

HKS im very sorry about the bs you had to put up with when you started this thread. im also very sorry about my sidi infrazeal, he is young and very egar to learn everything he can, you can remember what that was like. We are all Choy Lay Fut brothers here, we all have good skills. Remember in our system is to be humble.. Thank you for sending the pictures, by the way Mak Han Fi is my sifu..

Havick

[hskwarrior]

havick1,

its no problem. i understand where he is coming from. and i support him in his gung fu quest. I have his back if needed as i do you since we are all CLF and through that we are all brothers. sometimes brothers argue but never resort to blows.

Pls, go to your sifu and pls tell relay this message from my sifu whomi im on the phone right now........."Gung Hey Fay Choy sun nin fai lok." tell him to keep in touch. my sifu likes your sifu.

[Havick01]

I will relay the message

havick

[green_willow]

Ok, in light of the other section of this forum, i wanted to post some pictures of what we do. right now i don't have any film available, but the photo's will do.

in the 4 photos my sifu is showing how to use the dragon against someone trying to grab you around the waist.

i look forward to any videos and photo's all are invited to post in regards to the topic.

hope you like.

hsk

How does your sifu stop the momentum of the person rushing in? Usually grapplers go lower to the legs - does the technique work in that situation?

I've never seen the jaws of the dragon used in the UFC. why?

[TenTigers]

"How does your sifu stop the momentum of the person rushing in? Usually grapplers go lower to the legs - does the technique work in that situation? "

my guess, is that since you are describing a different situation, it would call for a different technique, or a variation on this one, such as combining it with a sprawl.
You are again asking the same question, as you did in your last post-"would it work against a jab?" You still don't get it.
Gung-Fu, as in ALL Martial Arts, ALL Fighting, is about adaptability. It is certainly not one-dimensional thinking, one technique. You need to think outside the box.
Actually, you need to spend more time studying, training, and learning, so you can understand what is being said, rather than trying to put it down.
I do, however appreciate that your tone seems to have changed a bit as of late. What you have asked is indeed a valid question, and not a blatant put-down.

(unless you would like to edit it!:D )

[Judge Pen]

"How does your sifu stop the momentum of the person rushing in? Usually grapplers go lower to the legs - does the technique work in that situation? "

my guess, is that since you are describing a different situation, it would call for a different technique, or a variation on this one, such as combining it with a sprawl.


Sure, and if you stop the momentum and they try to rise into a clinch, then that particular technique may have some validity again.

Thanks for sharing Frank.