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Green Cloud
02-07-2006, 10:07 PM
Just wondering who is the best wing chun guy in William Chungs camp, and who is most senior???

Ray Pina
02-08-2006, 09:02 AM
Whoever he is he should go play with Emin Boztepe .... I was impressed with that guy's power. Though, I have to say, I've worked on some stuff since then and would like to have a real go at him. But now we're friends.:)

Man, just realised that all my crazy antics .... really, they expose me to stuff and I'm growing. Guess this is a good thing. Also a good thing I escaped my last fight mostly in one piece:)

gabe
02-08-2006, 09:19 AM
I'm told it's Keith Mazza. I believe he fought in Extreme Fighting and won.

sihing
02-08-2006, 09:21 AM
Just wondering who is the best wing chun guy in William Chungs camp, and who is most senior???

Out of the remaining students in the association, meaning the ones still with GM Cheung, the best is supposed to be Sifu Keith Mazza (he's something like 6'3" and 240lbs and has fought successfully in NHB events), from New Jersey.

My Sifu was with GM Cheung up until 94'. He learned TWC from Cheung himself in Aussie Land back in 86' and learned the whole Cirriculum in 8 months, returning back home here in 87'. There is also Sifu Rick Spain from Australia, who won the Hong Kong fighting championship back in 82' I believe, middleweight division (Spain is also no longer associated with Cheung). Another TWC practitioner under Cheung, his name is Joe (can't spell his last name), won the heavyweight division for that same year also. I've only heard good things about Spain, but have never seen him in action.

James

Ray Pina
02-08-2006, 09:41 AM
Important note: a lot has changed in the world of competitive martial arts since 1982. What cut it then could get you killed today.

Green Cloud
02-08-2006, 09:50 AM
Keith mazza seems to be the senior guy right now and yea I met him and he's a big mo fo.

sihing
02-08-2006, 09:54 AM
Green Cloud,

Take a look at the link I have on my Signature. That's my Sifu's webpage (I'm trying to set one up here soon). There's some history and video(scroll down half way on the home page on the lefthand side and there they are). Check them out...

James

sihing
02-08-2006, 09:56 AM
Important note: a lot has changed in the world of competitive martial arts since 1982. What cut it then could get you killed today.

I'm not sure what the rules where of the event, but I think Spain fought with a injured hand and still won.

James

Green Cloud
02-08-2006, 10:16 AM
Nice web site Sihing, what lineage are you guys from??? Did you check ou my site, The mook jung stuff that I'm diong is not wing chun just in case youre wondering.

NeuroGrrrl
02-08-2006, 10:44 AM
Important note: a lot has changed in the world of competitive martial arts since 1982. What cut it then could get you killed today.

Ray, could you elaborate on this?

LeeCasebolt
02-08-2006, 10:54 AM
Out of the remaining students in the association, meaning the ones still with GM Cheung, the best is supposed to be Sifu Keith Mazza (he's something like 6'3" and 240lbs and has fought successfully in NHB events), from New Jersey.

James

Just curious - which events? Sherdog.com has no listing for a "Keith Mazza", and they're fairly complete.

Ray Pina
02-08-2006, 10:57 AM
In 1982 I was winning a lot of tournaments standing on one leg throwing out side kicks ... of course, I was just a kid. But I watched the adult full contact fights too and it was pretty much the same .... side kick, side kick, roundhouse, punching, break.

I even think 1982 may have been pre ninja, pre star-spangled gi. It was definitely pre take-you-down----pin-you---punch-you-to-a-pulp.

In effect, things are different today. What cut it then could get you killed today.

sihing
02-08-2006, 11:26 AM
Nice web site Sihing, what lineage are you guys from??? Did you check ou my site, The mook jung stuff that I'm diong is not wing chun just in case youre wondering.

Thanks for the compitment on the site.

Good question regarding the lineage. Basically Sifu learned WSL system back in the mid 70's while he was teaching/training Hung Gar and Woo Dip (a rare Butterfly palms system). At that time these were his main styles but he dabbled in other systems also. Then in 86' he travelled to Australia to train under GM Cheung, but was only able to stay in that country for a year, so he trained all day most everyday to complete the level 1 to 10 (Sifu level cirriculum) in that short amount of time. In 94' he decided to leave GM Cheung's association. Before that happened Sifu set up his own association, Canadian Wing Chun Kung Fu Association, to which Calgary is the headquarters and he is the Chief Instructor/Leader.

Yes I visited your site and watched some of the Mok Jong vid. Interesting stuff's, you have fast hands.

I have some vids of myself doing the mok jong and Butterfly swords on youtube.com, just type in WC and they are there.

James

SevenStar
02-08-2006, 12:04 PM
Ray, could you elaborate on this?

tournaments have changed a lot since then, mainly due the popularity of san da, full contact fighting in general and mma. outside of muay thai, you rarely saw leg kicks, and you NEVER saw ground work. Also, that was almost 30 years ago. there have been many advances in our knowledge of proper training since then. So, the fighters from today would most likely be bettered conditioned than those of the past.

Green Cloud
02-08-2006, 01:11 PM
Thanks for the compitment on the site.

Good question regarding the lineage. Basically Sifu learned WSL system back in the mid 70's while he was teaching/training Hung Gar and Woo Dip (a rare Butterfly palms system). At that time these were his main styles but he dabbled in other systems also. Then in 86' he travelled to Australia to train under GM Cheung, but was only able to stay in that country for a year, so he trained all day most everyday to complete the level 1 to 10 (Sifu level cirriculum) in that short amount of time. In 94' he decided to leave GM Cheung's association. Before that happened Sifu set up his own association, Canadian Wing Chun Kung Fu Association, to which Calgary is the headquarters and he is the Chief Instructor/Leader.

Yes I visited your site and watched some of the Mok Jong vid. Interesting stuff's, you have fast hands.

I have some vids of myself doing the mok jong and Butterfly swords on youtube.com, just type in WC and they are there.

James


Hey not to get off the topic but you mentioned Calgary, it brought back some memories. I used to work at the Calgery state fare, and also the PNE wich is the big one in Vancouver. I was the guy that did the Ginsu knife demos. Any way it brought back some good memories, just wondering if those fairs were still going on??

hskwarrior
02-08-2006, 01:16 PM
who's the best wing chun guy?

Man, I thought you knew. ME you dummy! And i don't even do wing chun!!!!

How do i know i'm the best, BECAUSE I SAID SOOO!!!:mad:

BRUCE LEE, AIN'T GOT NUTHIN ON...ME!


;) --MAKE NOTICE OF THE WINK JUST IN CASE I BURNED SUM BRIADGES (BREE-IDJUS).

Green Cloud
02-08-2006, 01:56 PM
OOps my bad I forgot you wng chun is 2nd to no ones;)

hskwarrior
02-08-2006, 04:35 PM
lol...........true, true!!!!

greencloudtj
02-08-2006, 04:41 PM
There may be some one better then him but he is wing chung legend. He is in a great movie and has his own clothing line. He really is a hard working sifu

Mr Punch
02-08-2006, 09:14 PM
Just curious - which events? Sherdog.com has no listing for a "Keith Mazza", and they're fairly complete.Don't think it is mate. I checked someone they referenced on their news page as having 14-0-0 the other day and he had one fight listed in their fighter's list. Can't remember his name. And I've seen Ryan Bow, my shooto teacher, fighting in tournaments with big promoters and big names, and not demo matches either, which aren't listed on his Sherdog record.

And I'm not there, and I've won at least 280 rooftop beimo using just my Iron Head techniques, against some of the finest fighters in world.

BTW, LOL at Watchman.

Green Cloud
02-08-2006, 09:23 PM
LOL you are so clever;)

Green Cloud
02-08-2006, 09:27 PM
Mat I have asked about this before what is a shooto teacher?? I thought the Japanese term for shooto means chop. I'm sure youre it means something else I just wanted to know what you are refering to:confused:

Mr Punch
02-09-2006, 01:38 AM
Sorry, I hadn't noticed.

The shuto which is a chop has a short 'shu' and shooto has a long 'shuu': it's a different set of kanji. That's why the romanization is 'shoo'.

Shooto refers to two MMA tournament 'styles', venues or formats or what have you... kind of like san shou or san da.

The 'shoot' comes from a leg shoot in wrestling etc and became Japanized, had kanji assigned to it and then came back to be romanized!

There is shoot-boxing and shoot-wrestling, and to be honest I don't know which is which, but I think I do shoot-boxing on account of Ryan starting out in Thai boxing (well after wing chun, but given his opinions on that we'd better not go into it!) and having in a large part a stand-up game first.

It was started by some geezer whose name I can't remember (Mamoru?) and there has been a video of one of his extremely brutal training sessions posted on here a couple of times with him ruthlessly beating people until they bleed with sticks etc. I think he started in kyokushin karate but again, I don't know.

Needless to say, the training techs have been modernized a bit since then!

The rules are basically the same as Pride/UFC except mostly they have no elbows (unless they have a Thai-shooto hybrid match which happens sometimes).

A lot of shooto fighters are hard-workers who can't break into K1 or Pride for various organizational and promotion reasons. The money in Shooto is a fraction of Pride/UFC/K1 and most of the fighters are in smaller divisions: top names get about 4000 dollars for a win.

If you go onto Sherdog and check up Ryan Bow for example, you'll get into a whole great list of fighters in shooto. Some of them are definitely A-list in MMA: Takanori Gomi, Joachim Hansen etc to name but a couple who have gone on to bigger and better things.

In my class we train boxing and muay thai for the first half (an hour and a half) and wrestling and jujutsu for the other half, and mix it up in sparring. I go primarily because I want to test my kungfu and I don't have the time or money to go into pro fighting. Largely the kungfu works OK with MMA gloves, but not if we're wearing boxing gloves! I do always naturally want to follow up with the elbows however! And it is nice to do a bit of thai kicking and sharpen up my combos a la boxing... the dynamics of the boxing hook has given me great insight into the WC hook from biu gee.

Green Cloud
02-09-2006, 09:32 AM
Thanks for the info mat, sounds like exciting stuff. Hey could you post that brutal video you spoke of?? Please forgive my morbid curiosity:)

Mr Punch
02-09-2006, 09:28 PM
I don't have it, but it's on here somewhere, so either search yourself or I will when I have the time.

Sifu Darkfist
02-09-2006, 10:35 PM
Did not your mommy and daddy or master tell there is no best? there is always someone better

MeatTosser
02-10-2006, 02:47 AM
tournaments have changed a lot since then, mainly due the popularity of san da, full contact fighting in general and mma. outside of muay thai, you rarely saw leg kicks, and you NEVER saw ground work. Also, that was almost 30 years ago. there have been many advances in our knowledge of proper training since then. So, the fighters from today would most likely be bettered conditioned than those of the past.


in past "regular" tournaments of past decades, yes. But if we go back further than this century, a lot of tournaments were brutal, and often to near-death. (Not often in Western areas though, although they probably had their undeground circuit.) Plus, even in this century, there have always been the seedy, underground, illegal NHB matches in China, in the dark recesses of cities, heh heh. :) Of course, it wouldn't be wise for someone to go there willingly, unless maybe you really needed the money.

LeeCasebolt
02-11-2006, 11:53 AM
Sorry, I hadn't noticed.

There is shoot-boxing and shoot-wrestling, and to be honest I don't know which is which, but I think I do shoot-boxing on account of Ryan starting out in Thai boxing (well after wing chun, but given his opinions on that we'd better not go into it!) and having in a large part a stand-up game first.

It was started by some geezer whose name I can't remember (Mamoru?) and there has been a video of one of his extremely brutal training sessions posted on here a couple of times with him ruthlessly beating people until they bleed with sticks etc. I think he started in kyokushin karate but again, I don't know.


Shootboxing is basically Japanese san shou/sanda - kickboxing with throws. Shootwrestling cna refer to either generic submission wrestling or to MMA-type competition (which is usually shootfighting).

Shooto was founded by Sayama (forgot his first name), who was a pro wrestler under the name Tiger Mask. I'm not that familiar with the origins of the shooto organization, but I think it began as a shootboxing promotion and gradually morphed into an MMA promotion as similar groups (UWFi, Pancrase, UFC) came along.

Late 90's Shooto was top-notch MMA, especially for the lighter weights.

Mr Punch
02-12-2006, 04:51 AM
Late 90's Shooto was top-notch MMA, especially for the lighter weights.Cheers for the clearing-up Lee.

I think it still produces a lot of good lighter weights, BTW.

Mr Punch
02-12-2006, 04:58 AM
Green Cloud:

Here's (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/videos/kungfuteacher.html) that twat Satoru Sayama.

Maybe NWS ads.

Green Cloud
02-12-2006, 06:31 AM
That's harsh, but then again his class was filled with students. Maybe I should do that to my student's when they're late with tuition.

But seriously what's the deal with that guy and why were those guys taking that **** from him.

Mat do you have any backround info on this guy??? Is that Shooto:D

Phil Redmond
02-12-2006, 08:47 AM
Keith mazza seems to be the senior guy right now and yea I met him and he's a big mo fo.
Actually Gus, there are a few more senior than Keith Mazza. I am one of them. Keith Mazza's school is the headquarters for North America though. Keith was a student of Gary Young. I was present in NJ at William Cheungs 65th birthday party in Oct. 2005 when Keith Mazza was accepted as an 'Indoor" student by Cheung Sifu. He is now officially a student of William Cheung and not Gary Young.
And with regards to Keith being on any website link for MMA he probably wouldn't be. He had some problems with the organization he fought for and he left them. So I can see them not putting his name on any list. ;)
Phil

Phil Redmond
02-12-2006, 08:59 AM
Out of the remaining students in the association, meaning the ones still with GM Cheung, the best is supposed to be Sifu Keith Mazza (he's something like 6'3" and 240lbs and has fought successfully in NHB events), from New Jersey.

My Sifu was with GM Cheung up until 94'. He learned TWC from Cheung himself in Aussie Land back in 86' and learned the whole Cirriculum in 8 months, returning back home here in 87'. There is also Sifu Rick Spain from Australia, who won the Hong Kong fighting championship back in 82' I believe, middleweight division (Spain is also no longer associated with Cheung). Another TWC practitioner under Cheung, his name is Joe (can't spell his last name), won the heavyweight division for that same year also. I've only heard good things about Spain, but have never seen him in action.

James
Hi James, Cheung Sifu wasn't teaching in 1986. He stopped teaching years earlier and had a student teach at the school like he had Dana Wong do. He was touring doing seminars and wasn't in Australia the whole time during 1986. He would do private lessons when he was in Australia though so I can see your Sifu getting some lessons directly from Cheung Sifu. Sifu used to do at least 3 world tours during those years and he's stay in NYC a while training me, Victor Parlati, and Sonny Whitmore so we could start teaching there.
Phil

Green Cloud
02-12-2006, 10:34 AM
Phil I know your a senior, but can you list the senior top guys in order. Are you the Dai si hing you seem to be the most knowledgeable.:confused:

greencloud.net

sihing
02-12-2006, 11:22 AM
Hi James, Cheung Sifu wasn't teaching in 1986. He stopped teaching years earlier and had a student teach at the school like he had Dana Wong do. He was touring doing seminars and wasn't in Australia the whole time during 1986. He would do private lessons when he was in Australia though so I can see your Sifu getting some lessons directly from Cheung Sifu. Sifu used to do at least 3 world tours during those years and he's stay in NYC a while training me, Victor Parlati, and Sonny Whitmore so we could start teaching there.
Phil

Hi Phil,

From what I understand he was teaching in 86'. Sifu said that Cheung would personally take aside the international students and bring them through somethings on a very regular basis. He also invited all the international students over to his house for a dinner reception. His brother David was teaching alot also.

Simu used to come go the school there in Australia and watch the class all the time, many times Cheung would striking up conversations with her...She and Sifu also accompanied Cheung on a summer camp or two, they really enjoyed that part..

James

Phil Redmond
02-12-2006, 12:47 PM
Phil I know your a senior, but can you list the senior top guys in order. Are you the Dai si hing you seem to be the most knowledgeable.:confused:

greencloud.net
[If I miss anyone's name it wasn't intentional]

Blaine Collins of Nevada is the most senior in North America. He met William Cheung in Australia when he was in the Navy. That's how Sifu (Cheung), got to teach the U.S. Marines and Sailors with the 7th Fleet. Blaine got Sifu to come to the States to do a seminars. I think the first seminar was in Las Vegas in 1983. Eric Oram (LA), John Clayton, (MD), Bill O'Connell, (LV) are the only ones I remember that were ate that seminar and became students. So they are among my seniors. The next seminar was the two week July 1983 UCLA seminars. (I was already a WC Sifu but decided to start over again in TWC at that time.)
Jerrry Bolding (KS), (Bolding may have been at the first one) Charles Boness (WI), is one that I remember from that one. The next one that year was in Boston. That's where Dana Wong, Victor Parlati, etc. met Sifu Cheung. The very first seminar held in NYC was at my school in Soho. somewhere in between Boston and NYC Cheung Sifu stayed at Gary Young's house in White Plains. Keith Mazza was Young's student and obviously got the see Sifu during that period but was still learning from Young. Sifu eventually took an interest in Keith and started teaching him personally. In Oct. 2005 during Sifu Cheung's 65th birthday party Sifu announced that Keith Mazza was now his "indoor" student, which took Keith by surprise.
Phil

Phil Redmond
02-12-2006, 12:57 PM
Hi Phil,

From what I understand he was teaching in 86'. Sifu said that Cheung would personally take aside the international students and bring them through somethings on a very regular basis. He also invited all the international students over to his house for a dinner reception. His brother David was teaching alot also.

Simu used to come go the school there in Australia and watch the class all the time, many times Cheung would striking up conversations with her...She and Sifu also accompanied Cheung on a summer camp or two, they really enjoyed that part..

James
He probably did teach some, but he wasn't there the whole year in '86. He toured many countries to do seminars that year on at least three different occaisions. He would come to NYC a few weeks before the seminar and a few weeks after the seminar to get us prepared to start schools in NYC. Sifu does only two world tours now but back then he used to come to the States 3 to 4 times yearly. How do i know? I was the President of the East coast region of the WWCFK Association. Sonny Whitmore was Vice Prez, and Victor Parlati was treasurer. Blaine Collins was Dai Sihing and Prez of North America. I still have or monthy newletters and other records in case I need to refresh myself on dates and events.
Phil

sihing
02-12-2006, 01:51 PM
He probably did teach some, but he wasn't there the whole year in '86. He toured many countries to do seminars that year on at least three different occaisions. He would come to NYC a few weeks before the seminar and a few weeks after the seminar to get us prepared to start schools in NYC. Sifu does only two world tours now but back then he used to come to the States 3 to 4 times yearly. How do i know? I was the President of the East coast region of the WWCFK Association. Sonny Whitmore was Vice Prez, and Victor Parlati was treasurer. Blaine Collins was Dai Sihing and Prez of North America. I still have or monthy newletters and other records in case I need to refresh myself on dates and events.
Phil

That's true Phil. As Sifu was there when the whole Cheung/Boztepe thing happened and was surprised he said to see William back so soon from Germany when it all happened. That's when he found out about the attack and such. So there was of course times when William was gone and other's were there to teach the students..

James

Phil Redmond
02-13-2006, 04:38 PM
That's true Phil. As Sifu was there when the whole Cheung/Boztepe thing happened and was surprised he said to see William back so soon from Germany when it all happened. That's when he found out about the attack and such. So there was of course times when William was gone and other's were there to teach the students..

James
I agree and by no means was I trying to demean your Sifu. In fact, he and I exchanged emails a while back.
Phil

Ultimatewingchun
02-13-2006, 08:29 PM
"Just wondering who is the best wing chun guy in William Chungs camp, and who is most senior???" (Green Cloud)


***NOT NECESSARILY one and the same thing, Green Cloud. But I think you probably already know that. Senority is tricky business - and not always reflective of what's really what.

For example...Phil Redmond is technically my "senior" because he joined in June, 1983...and I joined two months later in August, 1983. But I got my Gold Sash before Phil did (I received it in October, 1990...so who was I compared to Phil at that moment - his senior?)

See my point?

...Took my first test toward the Master Level in 1993 - one of the first people in the asociation at that time to do that ...learned quite a bit beyond that Provisional Master Level 2 and the final level but never took another test until ten years later (2003) ...and haven't taken another test since even though I know most of the material to full Master Level by now.

...Meanwhile Phil has gotten his full Master Level about a year or so ago.

So what does it all mean? Confused yet? Well then try this on for size:

During the mid 1990's Keith Mazza spent some time time learning the wooden dummy with Sonny Whitmore so as to prepare for his Gold Sash test...and then he got to full Master Level ahead of both Phil and me.

See where I'm going?

(Btw...Keith Mazza stands 5' 11" and weighs 235...and he did fight in one or two low level MMA events back in the late 1990's - but I don't remember which ones).

So trying to figure who is most senior in William Cheung's camp can be very tricky indeed - especially if you start counting people who joined William before you did (and they achieved some fairly high rank) but eventually left the association.

But trying to figure out who's the best might be a little easier - though still somewhat subjective. And by best I mean best fighter.

So here's a partial list alphabetically of who I think the best fighters are who ever trained with William Cheung - regardless of whether or not they are still with him. (I say partial because I've never met any of the European guys and very few of the Australians) - but I will mention some of those I've never met based upon what William Cheung himself has told me through the years about this guy or that guy, etc...and of course the list will include many people based upon what I've seen/experienced/heard through the years about them.

And I won't even get into weight categories...for clearly some of the heavyweights who learned a lot from William Cheung would have a built-in advantage when we try to rate them against others of a lighter weight who learned basically the same amount of material.

Anthony Arnett
Jerry Boulding
Johnny Clayton
Blaine Collins
Delroi Flood
Keith Mazza
Joe Moahengi
Shannon Moore
Bill O'Connell
Eric Oram
Victor Parlati
Jesse Quinnones
Phil Redmond
Julian Richardson
Joe Sayah
Rick Spain
Gary Young

Again...the list is very partial - and doesn't include some students of the above mentioned people who are definitely good fighters. (I myself have 5 students who could fit that bill - three of them heavyweights)...and guys like Johhny Clayton and Anthony Arnett - just to name two - each have a whole bunch of students who are good fighters.

Green Cloud
02-13-2006, 10:27 PM
Sifu victor P. I noticed that Chris serras wasn't on that list where does this guy fit in. I ask because I have had dealings with this guy in the past and I am trying to figure out what's what if you know what I mean. Please give me a pm if you don't feel like discussing it on the forum or call me joy gin Gus K.


greencloud.net

Phil Redmond
02-14-2006, 05:17 AM
Sifu victor P. I noticed that Chris serras wasn't on that list where does this guy fit in. I ask because I have had dealings with this guy in the past and I am trying to figure out what's what if you know what I mean. Please give me a pm if you don't feel like discussing it on the forum or call me joy gin Gus K.


greencloud.net
I know the question was posed to Victor but Chris Serras is a member in good standing of our association and runs a school in Long Island.
Phil

Phil Redmond
02-14-2006, 07:56 AM
Did not your mommy and daddy or master tell there is no best? there is always someone better
I wholeheartedly believe that. Many "competitive" martial artists may seem invincible but in the no rules streets even the average guy can get over on a pro fighter. There are people out there who don't compete and don't have titles that can be dangerous.
Phil

Phil Redmond
02-14-2006, 02:04 PM
Here's an old photo of the first group of TWC guys from 1984-5? I don't remember, Victor probably knows the exact year. Blaine Collins (seated), was the Dai Sihing at the time. Yes, that is Pedro Cepero-Yee behind Blaine Collins.
First NYC TWC group (http://www.sifupr.com/pics/WingChun_group.jpg)
Phil

Ultimatewingchun
02-14-2006, 02:24 PM
That photo was taken in November, 1984...and I'm the good looking guy that Phil Redmond rushed to stand directly in front of so that he could be shown standing next to Blaine... :D (You only see my face, partial chest, and left arm in the photo.....Da_n that Redmond guy!)

Not to worry: we all know who was teaching most of the good stuff in the classes in those days. :cool:

(When Blaine came to town he stayed with me! :) )


Ha! Ha! (Finally gotcha, Phil...:rolleyes: )

anerlich
02-14-2006, 03:06 PM
Another TWC practitioner under Cheung, his name is Joe (can't spell his last name), won the heavyweight division for that same year also.

Joe Moahengi. Now spends most of his time in Tonga.


Important note: a lot has changed in the world of competitive martial arts since 1982. What cut it then could get you killed today.

Wow. Really?

The 1982 tournament basically had very thin gloves like bag mitts, no protection for either party. Basically only shots to the eyes, throat and groin were disallowed, there were lots of elbows to the kidneys, back of the neck, etc. A Xingyi training bud of mine at the time competed and nearly lost an eye, as did a couple of other competitors. Quite a few people ended up going to hospital.

Reportedly the tournament was not held again as the number and severity of injuries meant no one was prepared to sponsor it again.

And yes, Rick did win his final fight with a broken hand.

Not a modern pro MMA event perhaps, but in many ways just as if not more dangerous.

Rick Spain also had over 100 amateur and 37 pro kickboxing matches. And he's moved with the times, now a purple belt in BJJ, with students who have succeeded in local MMA and state and national BJJ competition.

Still cutting it today, wouldn't you agree?

Mortal1
02-14-2006, 03:19 PM
Great old school pic! Time goes so fast it's scary.

Chum Kil
02-14-2006, 03:20 PM
Where did Carlan Stewart and Bob Shores fit into this? Carlan was good friends with Blaine and Bob. Bob held seminar's for Sifu Cheung. This was all back in the early 80's. Carlan was also Pres or vice-pres of the WWCKFA.

shammy
02-14-2006, 05:56 PM
Funny how none of you "seniors" have much to say about Sifu Dana Wong, who taught for GM for over 10 years at the World Headquarters. He did instructor training in Australia with GM on Friday nights, the only day off he had from teaching the classes there, and he had a daily private with GM from 1988 to 1990 as well. He told me he doesn't read the Wing Chun forums because there's a lot of ego there, and stuff that gets said that isn't always true or accurate. I'm not saying that what some have said here on this thread isn't accurate, just that some of it may not be said with all the facts being presented. Seems to me some egos may be wanting to get massaged here, at the expense of holes that would make it convenient for people to do so. The internet's a funny place; it can be a great place for information and exchange, like on this forum and others but it can be a place that also allows for a lot of misinformation and misrepresentations too. Although Sifu Wong doesn't visit these forums, and doesn't say much about his own skills and abilities, anyone who's met and trained with him would know that he has more than what some claim. Just thought I'd put that in, seeing how he doesn't spend time reading these things. I trained with him for about five years in Australia, and think that he's not getting some of the credit he deserves for all the time he put into the WWCKFA. If any of you knew him personally, you know he wouldn't have left it if it wasn't for a good and ethical reason. And just because he calls his school the Qian Li Dao academy now doesn't mean he doesn't still teach TWC.

anerlich
02-14-2006, 07:14 PM
Just thought I'd put that in, seeing how he doesn't spend time reading these things. I trained with him for about five years in Australia, and think that he's not getting some of the credit he deserves for all the time he put into the WWCKFA.

No one mentioned Dana, but no one dissed him either. As you say, he's a quiet achiever who did a lot for the WWCKFA in Australia (same as people like Marty Goldberg, among others, did in the US).


If any of you knew him personally, you know he wouldn't have left it if it wasn't for a good and ethical reason. And just because he calls his school the Qian Li Dao academy now doesn't mean he doesn't still teach TWC.


Quite a few other people have parted company with GM Cheung and the WWCKFA. I know three instructors personally in that boat with Dana, including Rick Spain, who was with GM Cheung for 22 years, and I know EXACTLY what happened in Rick's situation, as I was physically present at the time when the split occurred. No sane person would have continued the association in that situation.

I don't think I'm treading on anyone's toes here when I say GM Cheung's unlikely to win any awards for employee relations anytime soon. A great WC man and martial artist, but not the easiest guy to work for.

Rick also teaches TWC, though after rebranding it Hung Suen Wing Chun.

Rick Spain and his most senior student Alf del-Brocco, kept in contact with Dana after the split and AFAIK are still on good terms.

Ultimatewingchun
02-14-2006, 07:51 PM
Met Carlan Steward when I tested for my Gold Sash in October, 1990 in Denver, Colorado...Carlan was already a Gold Sash instructor - but dropped out of the association the following year over a dispute with William Cheung concerning some financial matters regarding a new school that Carlan was opening...and if I'm not mistaken - the school was in San Diego at the time. Was actually considering mentioning him when I made the list - but don't really know enough about him and and don't remember seeing him do very much that weekend - and in fact I sparred with one of his students during my test (this guy was also testing for the Gold Sash)...but I wasn't very impressed with this guy at all.

Don't really know how good Carlan really is or was - perhaps I should have included him...(I know Blaine Collins had some good things to say about him).

Seemed like a good guy.

I don't think Bob Shores was ever an instructor...wasn't he a chiropractor? I believe I met him that weekend also.

russellsherry
02-14-2006, 07:57 PM
re dana wong, sifu dana ran chinatown club for over ten years , dana has some of the best knowledge, in twc, he welcomed me warlmy when he knew i was a
senor at my other school dana is a good guy and very openmined in regard to wing chun we remain tight friends peace russellsherry

Ultimatewingchun
02-14-2006, 08:12 PM
I met Dana when I first met Willliam Cheung in August, 1983 in Boston...don't think he had ever done any wing chun before at that time - but it was him who arranged for William Cheung to come and do a weekend seminar at a college. In fact, I played a game of chess with William Cheung in Dana's apartment after the Saturday seminar.

Spoke to him a few times through the years after he went to live in Australia...I omitted him from the list not because he had a falling out with William Cheung and left the association - there are a number of people on that list who left William Cheung...I omitted his name because I know enough about him to come to the conclusion that he was not a particularly skilled fighter...that's not who he really was. He knew the system very well - but was not really a fighter.

Very nice guy, though...just about everybody I know liked him. And I wish him well.

No offense intended. Dana was always very friendly toward me.

................

And I can second what Anerlich (Andrew Nerlich) has said about Rick Spain. From what I've heard through the years - he is probably one of the very best of all of William Cheung's students. Had a chance to meet him when he came to the U.S. to do a seminar back in 1997 (1998?)...he had already left the association...there was a lot of politics going on, and crazy Joe Grepo :D - who was organizing the seminar here in the U.S. after he also left the association - wanted me to go...but I didn't.

I was waaaaaay too involved with William Cheung and Association matters at that time to even consider it.

.....................

You know...the more I think about this...the more I'm coming to the conclusion that I may have left too many names off the list....:eek: :rolleyes: ;)

Phil Redmond
02-14-2006, 08:30 PM
I mentioned Dana at least twice in my posts on this thread. I've met Dana and have exchanged friendly emails with him since he left the association. I also was invited (http://www.sifupr.com/pics/GM_Letter.jpg) to go to Melbourne and teach along with Dana. It would have been fun for both of us. I remember talking to him when he first got there and him telling me how hard he was working. There was no malice against Dana intended. He's a really nice guy.
Phil

Chum Kil
02-14-2006, 09:13 PM
Thanks for the reply Sifu Parlati. Sifu Steward was my instructor from 96-99 back in CA. He told me about Sifu Collins being one of Sifu Cheung's early students here in the US back in the early 80's and how he and Sifu Collin's attended alot of Sifu Cheung's seminar's in the US. When I moved to UT I talked to Sifu Shores on the phone and got some video's of the early seminar's 83 up in Oregon at Sifu Shores school. I remember talking to Joe Greco on the phone back when I was training with Sifu Steward. The guy had alot of stories to tell, that' for sure, LOL

kravi
02-14-2006, 09:25 PM
I know EXACTLY what happened in Rick's situation, as I was physically present at the time when the split occurred. No sane person would have continued the association in that situation.


I'm really curious to know what happened - any chance of you telling what happened from your viewpoint? (or is it a personal story best reserved to be heard from the horses mouth.. ie Sifu RS?)

cheers,

Phil Redmond
02-14-2006, 09:44 PM
That photo was taken in November, 1984...and I'm the good looking guy that Phil Redmond rushed to stand directly in front of so that he could be shown standing next to Blaine... :D (You only see my face, partial chest, and left arm in the photo.....Da_n that Redmond guy!) )

Good memory and you're too funny.


Not to worry: we all know who was teaching most of the good stuff in the classes in those days. :cool: )

Thanks for the compliment.


(When Blaine came to town he stayed with me! :) ) )

Yeah, you lived in a "safer" neighborhood. ;)


Ha! Ha! (Finally gotcha, Phil...:rolleyes: )

Touché

Phil

anerlich
02-15-2006, 03:02 PM
I'm really curious to know what happened - any chance of you telling what happened from your viewpoint?

PM me with some detail about yourself and I'll consider it. It's certainly not a story for public airing. I mention it only because certain rumours emerged about it which I know to be untrue, and if they surface again people should know I can refute them as an eyewitness. It's a typical, rather than unusual, story.


there was a lot of politics going on, and crazy Joe Grepo - who was organizing the seminar here in the U.S. after he also left the association - wanted me to go...but I didn't

Probably a wise choice on your part, Victor - I don't think the GM would have been all that pleased if you went and he found out.

Ultimatewingchun
02-15-2006, 03:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun
(Not to worry: we all know who was teaching most of the good stuff in the classes in those days. :cool: )



Thanks for the compliment. (Phil Redmond)


***OH YEAH...I must have been talking about you. :rolleyes:



...............

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun
(When Blaine came to town he stayed with me! :) )


Yeah, you lived in a "safer" neighborhood. (Phil Redmond)


***OH YEAH....Blaine Collins would have been afraid to stay at St. Felix Place....:rolleyes:


LOL ON BOTH COUNTS! :D :D :D :cool: :cool: :cool:

fiamacho
02-15-2006, 04:26 PM
Hello Everyone,

I find a lot of the talk in this thread about who is the "best Wing Chun Guy" quite fascinating as there is a most definite bias towards the U.S based Instructors.

A lot of you are probably not aware that BEFORE Grand Master Cheung started his first class in Corrs Lane Melbourne, he had actually opened his very school here in Auckland New Zealand.

He ran it for a little while and then he moved to Melbourne, this all happened in the mid to late Seventies. G.M was back and forth between Aussie and New Zealand and in the process Sifu Joe Moahengi had also relocated to Australia so that he could learn privately under G.M

G.M then left the Auckland Club in the hands of Sifu Simon Wan, who was a Modiifed Instructor from Hong Kong, the funny thing was that here we had a Modified Instructor and all of the students were using the Traditional Footwork.

So in terms of true seniority there are students like Joe Moahengi, Marko Matich, Wayne Parks and the Fisher brothers who were training in the Art well before Grand Master Cheung designed the current grading structure. These guys pre-date any of their U.S peers by a few years I have trained under Sifu Joe Moahengi and Wayne Parks and there is a far more combative nature to their Wing Chun then what I have seen Internationally.

In actual reality if I was to name the "best Wing Chun guy" in terms of nothing but pure combative ability and not on "business sense", with no bias whatsoever and in no particular order, then they would have to be ...

Marko Matich
Joe Maohengi
Rick Spain
Wayne Parks
Fisher Brothers

... REST OF THE WORLD !!!

All of G.M early teaching was purely combative, what to do in a fight, how to destroy streetfighters, Thai Boxers, Kick Boxers etc. Grand Master Cheung did not care, it was all about "kicking their asses". Now the Art has become very commercial with many people acheiving Sifu Level after 18 months, now this is nothing but a joke.

With the exception of Joe and Rick a lot of you would not of even heard of the other gentlemen in the list I have provided, because quite frankly you are all too young in the Art to know.

I have also seen Sifu Joe Moahengi in action as we used to do a lot of Security work together, and his Applied Wing Chun is just brilliant, nothing but the Art not a "little bit of this and a little bit of that". Marko and Wayne were equally devastating and as for Rick well he too was also truly amazing.

Someone on this forum I believe from the Canadian Wing Chun school alluded to the 1982 Hong Kong Invitational Tournament, I have been trying to find the link so if you can post it up I would like to see Joe and Rick's fights at that Tournament.

I thought I would clear up one or two things this post was not meant to be offensive, if it is taken that way then I apologise.

anerlich
02-15-2006, 06:34 PM
A lot of you are probably not aware that BEFORE Grand Master Cheung started his first class in Corrs Lane Melbourne, he had actually opened his very school here in Auckland New Zealand.

And before that he taught in Canberra, Australia, where he trained guys such as David Crook, who still teaches KF today, though it is an eclectic style. His chi sao would cause most WC people significant probs.

Good post with that clarification. I agree pretty much with your "old school" list.

sihing
02-15-2006, 08:16 PM
All of G.M early teaching was purely combative, what to do in a fight, how to destroy streetfighters, Thai Boxers, Kick Boxers etc. Grand Master Cheung did not care, it was all about "kicking their asses". Now the Art has become very commercial with many people acheiving Sifu Level after 18 months, now this is nothing but a joke.

I wish he kept this way throughout the years, he would have much more respect now than he has in the WC community (not sure if he even cares what others think:confused: ). Although I'm no longer in his association I respect him for his abilities and skills big time, but when looking at some of the things on his tapes you know something is up. I love the way you put it, "to destroy streetfighters, Thai Boxers, etc...", sounds like the Gary Lamb on the mid 70's early 80's....

James

fiamacho
02-15-2006, 09:47 PM
Grand Master's sole purpose back in those days was to teach his students how the forms can and should be applied. Nowadays I have a tendency to to refer to todays Wing Chun Practioners as "The Wing Chun Latte Faithful" as lets face it all they seem to do is talk about the theoretical side of the Art while ordering Macchiato's from Starbucks.

Wing Chun has become trendy and unfortunately it has been categorised in the same way as one would categorised Wu Shu or Tai Chi. When I was fighting on the tournament scene back in the mid to late eighties, when anybody heard that they were up against a student of Grand Master Cheung, the first thing they did was make sure that the Medic was ready, because in all honesty somebody was going to get hurt. We were taught to use the Art and nothing but the Art and guess what, it worked 100% and yes we were beating groundfighters from Jiu-Jitsu etc.

Nowadays people as we say here in New Zealand are "dropping their nuts" with the mere mention of MMA, Vale Tudo or BJJ. For crying out loud if I was fighting in the street there will be no way on God's Green Earth that I will be rolling around on the ground wrestling someone.

There are moves from the First and Second Forms which can easiyl dispose of Groundfighters, we used to learn them back in the 70's and 80's and YES it was from Cheung Lineage Wing Chun. Speak to your Instructors if they cannot show you any, then yes they have copied their Sifu's and NOT understood how to use the Art at all. The lack of faith shown by Wing Chun Practioners nowadays on how to handle these situations or talking about the weaknesses in the art just goes to show that there has been way too many Cappuccino's being consumed.

There was a poster on this forum who mentioned that Wing Chun Practioners are now just glorified Kickboxers and unfortunately I would have to agree. How is anyone who has trained 18 months fulltime makes Sifu Level going to even comprehend what they are doing in Chi Sao?? When really all they have done is spent all their time memorising moves and NOT understanding them.

They are just mimics they have wasted their money copying instead of understanding, how many Wing Chun Fighters are there out on the Tournament scene nowadays??? How many are in K1? How many can testify to being World Champions? K1 Champions? Exactly people I am having a hard time trying to name anybody since the "old school" days, when you can turn up to a Tournament have 3-4 fights in a day of 3 x 3 minute Rounds, and when you looked towards the Champions podium the majority of the Champions were Wing Chun Practitioners, and these are the Open Tournaments.

The Art has definitley changed over the years and some of the posts on this forum testify to the lack of faith todays student have in such a dangerous Fighting Art.

Remember in Wing Chun "The Art is the Fighting Art and the Fighting Art is the Art"

Ultimatewingchun
02-15-2006, 11:00 PM
fiamacho:

First of all, welcome to the board. It's a pleasure to have another TWC guy around - especially someone who started training back in the 70's.

As for U.S. bias...I did mention Rick Spain and Joe Moahengi on the list - and I did say that the list was partial because my knowledge of the Australian or the European guys is limited.

In fact if you look closely at the list - you'll also see the name Julian Richardson. I'd like you to tell me about him if you can, as my knowledge of him only comes from Blaine Collins.

Blaine is the American guy who was in the U.S. navy and stationed in Australia back around 1978-79-80...where he would go ashore and train under William Cheung virtually everyday for about 3 years or so.

He once mentioned an Australian guy to me named Julian Richardson - saying that his TWC fighting skills were first rate.

And Blaine paved the way for William Cheung to teach the sailors on the ship and to come to America...becoming the dai-sihing here in North America and continuing his training - began teaching - and stayed with William Cheung until the end of 1990.

As for the chocolate latte at Starbucks...I agree with a great deal of what you said...when William Cheung changed the grading structure with the big push being to have someone get their Gold Sash and become a full-fledged instructor within 2.5 years - I refused to go along with the new program - and I continued under the old curriculum and grading structure so that it would take at least 5 years (sometimes longer) for anyone to reach the Gold Sash Instructor Level.

And I purposely put off my own tests until I was convinced that I knew all the material well (had many discussions with Blaine about this in those days - as the promotion of some people to Instructor Level by William Cheung sometimes at a record pace...8 months...12 months....18 months....really put some people off - including me. It's also one of the biggest reasons why Blaine left the Association).

So even though I started with William Cheung in August, 1983....I didn't go for my Gold Sash test until October, 1990. Waited another three years to take my first test toward Master Level (the Butterfly Sword form)...and then didn't take another test until 10 years later...Took the Butterfly Sword applications test in 2003...even though by then I already also knew the Dragon Pole form and it's applications (two more tests toward Master Level - yet to be taken).

I have done these things on purpose. I don't like the McDojo approach either.

As for my belief in the value of crosstraining...this is where I disagree with you. But I wanted to give you some of my background first - so that you know where I'm coming from. And let me add a few more things before continuing about crosstraining: I have two students who received their Gold Sash around 1993/94...and 4 other guys who have taken some tests - one of them right up to Level 9 (just one before the Gold Sash)....

but these four guys have been with me for many years by now (between 8 and 12) - and are better TWC fighters than many people here in the U.S. who are wearing Gold Sashes....because I believe in the old ways. (I won't mention any names). And for one reason or another they weren't around or didn't have the money or whatever when GM Cheung was in town to test them....and now their lives have changed (who's married with 3 kids now and moved to Connecticut...who's temporarily living in Japan right now....who has two kids and moved to New Jersey....who has other family obligations that prevent him from coming to class at the present..and so on).

So these 4 guys rarely come to class anymore - and may never take the test....much less go for the Master Level.

And they don't really care all that much (Neither do I).

All they (we) care about is whether or not they can fight.

As for my training in wrestling and the use of some boxing to get to close range:

While I believe that there are definitely some nice counters to being fully clinched or taken down within wing chun...against a skilled grappler type - and especially against one who can skillfully use striking as a way to get close first....I don't think that any wing chun system has all the answers to this.

And if you're taken by surprise...anything can happen.

Didn't the MAN himself get taken down in Germany?

Would like to hear more from you about the TWC guys vs. the jiu jitsu guys that you referred to.

Japanese jiu jitsu?
Brazilian jiu jitsu?
What about Wrestlers?
Greco-Roman?
Free style?

Please give details if you can recall them. Were there credible shoots to the legs? To the body? Good, sharp setups?

Because there are grapplers and there are GRAPPLERS.

Phil Redmond
02-16-2006, 10:00 AM
fiamacho,
Sifu told me about the Aussie and Kiwi fighters he had back in the day. Had I known their names I'd have mentioned them. He talked lots about Sifu Sifu Joe Moahengi. Victor already mentioned his name. Also, there are some of us here in the States that can and have used Wing Chun for real. I will concur with Blaine's reason for leaving. I don't agree with people becoming Sifus in short periods of time. That's all I'm saying. ;)
Phil

russellsherry
02-16-2006, 03:42 PM
hi all as i stated before , i started my training , 1976 of all the guys at williams who i thought were good, over the years the best were , big joe mohonie rick spain i bloody hate being nice to someone who i punched on with, but we have to tell the truth sometimes , big joe was and is a real gentleman he came to my school several times dropping in to say hi he is a real class act ,dana wong of course came after rick left i trained with dana for about 6 mouths before i met randy jullian richison was pretty good as well and also chris willson whom frought in hk as well chris was a very good fighter peace russellsherrty

anerlich
02-16-2006, 04:30 PM
There are moves from the First and Second Forms which can easiyl dispose of Groundfighters, we used to learn them back in the 70's and 80's and YES it was from Cheung Lineage Wing Chun. Speak to your Instructors if they cannot show you any, then yes they have copied their Sifu's and NOT understood how to use the Art at all. The lack of faith shown by Wing Chun Practioners nowadays on how to handle these situations or talking about the weaknesses in the art just goes to show that there has been way too many Cappuccino's being consumed.


That is true, though how "easily" you can dispose of groundfighters depends on how thoroughly you have trained the techniques ... and the quality of the groundfighter.

There *are* some great moves in SLT and CK to control and attack from the tie-up, and to finish on the ground but most people would be unaware of the applications ... and if they don't understand basic grappling principles (basic control positions, head position, etc.) they're never going to have the chance to attempt them against an opponent.

I'm not sure at least one of the guys on your list, Rick Spain, totally shares your views, as he has spent the last six years practising and teaching Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu alongside his Wing Chun, and is currently being ranked a purple belt in BJJ as well as a red sash in TWC (attained prior to splitting with GM). Both styles continue to be drilled in class with high demands for technical excellence and the ablity to apply them under duress.

As for your Cappucino and Starbucks, I don't do either. I tested for gold sash after seven years of hard work, and then only because Sifu (Rick Spain) more or less insisted. I was pretty strong and fit for a 45 year old when I tested for level 1 master in 1999, and I literally was unable to stand or walk for several minutes after the completion of the test. I have a photo of myself taken afterwards with two black eyes and one side of my chest red, with the bruise of a palm print so precisely formed that every finger except the pinkie was clearly defined, and another of the print of the sole of the ball of a wrestling boot so the individual ridges could be seen. I've seen other people complete gold level tests after suffering in one case a shoulder dislocation and in another a fracture of the fibula.

Don't make the mistake of thinking every modern TWC school is as you describe.

Phil Redmond
02-16-2006, 04:40 PM
I was already a Sifu when I started TWC. It took me 8 years after that to make Sifu again. And I'm not a Cappucino and Starbucks martial artist by any means.
Phil

snakebyte8
02-16-2006, 07:37 PM
Vic, this is a little fishy!


So even though I started with William Cheung in August, 1983....I didn't go for my Gold Sash test until October, 2000. Waited another three years to take my first test toward Master Level (the Butterfly Sword form)...and then didn't take another test until 10 years later...Took the Butterfly Sword applications test in 2003...even though by then I already also knew the Dragon Pole form and it's applications (two more tests toward Master Level - yet to be taken).

Clearly a little mistake as this timeline would take us to about the year 2013
but i was interested in the actual numbers.:)

fiamacho
02-16-2006, 08:50 PM
Good to read the feedback, first off I need to clarify one or two things I apologise for replying in a list it is just the easiest way for me to come across …

UltimateWingchun –

-Thanks for the welcome.
-Yes you did mention Rick & Joe and as for Julian Richardson, I never trained with this person so I cannot comment.
-Good to hear that you were honest enough with yourself to recognise that your standard at the stage did not warrant the grade, it takes time to develop the understanding required toi “APPLY” the techniques properly.
-With cross-training I believe that ther is nothing wrong in studying another Art in order to expose its’ weaknesses, but the problem with today’s exponent is that they have this mentality that MMA, BJJ and Vale Tud have an “air of invincibility. I say “bull****” if you know Wing Chun and apply it properly you can defeat these guys.
- As for your 4 friends I have no respect for anyone’s grade, just their ability to apply their knowledge. There are a number of “Instructors” who have the grade but get them into a confrontation and they fall apart. Someone achieving an Instructor’s Level just tells me that they know “x amount of moves” and it is great from a commercial money making angle but yet again there is a a vast ravine when it comes to reality.
-It amazes me how people perceive the low round house kick to be a “Thai Kick”, we were doing this as a natural part of our training curriculum, and yes it is Wing Chun. As for the Jiu-Jitsu guys they were Japanese, we also fought guys who you would call themselves freestylers. Grapplers are all the same as strikers they are just human and they hurt when you hit them … how you hit them and where is the key to success.

RussellSherry –

-Big Joe is definitely still a gentleman, until it comes time to apply and then you see a side to him that is nothing but “poetry in motion”.

Anerlich –

-If Sifu Rick Spain, who I have the utmost respect for, insisted you go for your grading then you must have been ready. Because Rick is not the sort of man that fools around.
-I made a generalisation about the state of Wig Chun, I have watched some of the “Instructors Videos” on the net sarcasm intended. And if that is the quality and standard of the teaching in TWC then “Lord Help Us”.
-The quality is poor, the application is poor, and the explanations do not make sense. You look at some of the Form footage and it changes between Instructors, compare it to Grand Master Cheung and you will see the difference even in the sequences. Hence the references made to Starbucks because all Wing Chun has become is a topic of conversation for the Latte Faithful.

Phil Redmond
-If it took you another 8 years of serious training then that is great.
-I understand that not everyone is a member of the Latte Faithful.

I hope that clear a few things up.

Green Cloud
02-16-2006, 10:03 PM
V. A. Thomas do you guys know him I believe he is a Moy Yat guy, I have gotten to know him quite well over the years and from what I'v seen in tournaments not hear say he is quite smooth, and a gentleman to boot.

Ultimatewingchun
02-16-2006, 11:14 PM
Wow!!! Thanks for catching that, snakebyte! :cool:

It should have read that I got my Gold Sash in October, 1990....

not 2000. :eek: :rolleyes:

I'll go back and edit that post right now!


..............................



Green Cloud:

I studied with Moy Yat from 1975-1983.

Vingrove Thomas had studied with Douglas Lee (Lee Moy Shan)...who was Moy Yat's first student here in NYC.

I never met Vingrove during those years....but as fate would have it - after I began doing TWC - in fact I was already teaching William Cheung's system...and it was somewhere around perhaps 1991-92-93...somewhere in that period I was renting space for my classes at a dance studio 4 days a week - and my Saturday class immediately followed Vingrove Thomas's Ving Tsun class - so I got to know him a little bit.

Also ran into him once-or-twice at some kung fu tournaments back in those days...he would usually be doing the dragon pole form as a demo or he served (as I did once) as a judge in some of the competitions.

Nice guy.


........................


"UltimateWingchun –

-Thanks for the welcome.
-Yes you did mention Rick & Joe and as for Julian Richardson, I never trained with this person so I cannot comment.
-Good to hear that you were honest enough with yourself to recognise that your standard at the stage did not warrant the grade, it takes time to develop the understanding required toi “APPLY” the techniques properly.
-With cross-training I believe that ther is nothing wrong in studying another Art in order to expose its’ weaknesses, but the problem with today’s exponent is that they have this mentality that MMA, BJJ and Vale Tud have an “air of invincibility. I say “bull****” if you know Wing Chun and apply it properly you can defeat these guys.
- As for your 4 friends I have no respect for anyone’s grade, just their ability to apply their knowledge. There are a number of “Instructors” who have the grade but get them into a confrontation and they fall apart. Someone achieving an Instructor’s Level just tells me that they know “x amount of moves” and it is great from a commercial money making angle but yet again there is a a vast ravine when it comes to reality.
-It amazes me how people perceive the low round house kick to be a “Thai Kick”, we were doing this as a natural part of our training curriculum, and yes it is Wing Chun. As for the Jiu-Jitsu guys they were Japanese, we also fought guys who you would call themselves freestylers. Grapplers are all the same as strikers they are just human and they hurt when you hit them … how you hit them and where is the key to success."


***INTERESTING POST, fiamacho....I respect your attitude about the Vale Tudo, BJJ, and MMA guys not being invincible. That's absolutely true. There are holes in their games (with certain exceptions, of course. Wouldn't want to fight a guy like Fedor without a weapon :D ).

And yes, I understand your point about wanting to know what they do in order to exploit their weaknesses. But I like to take it a one step further. I want some of the strengths in their game to be some of my strength also....I look upon it as an insurance policy at the very least - and at most....being able to wrestle adds some more offensive weapons to my arsenal.

In other words...I want to not just know what they're trying to do so as to look for the weakness to expolit (and there are weaknesses to "just" wrestling or "just" doing BJJ....ie.- putting an elbow into someone's face who's going for a double leg takedown while blocking one of his arms with your other arm can be a beautiful thing)...

but I want to be able to use what he's doing as well - to a point. (I don't ever expect to be a world class wrestler)...But being able to slap on a figure four chokehold after that elbow might win that fight for me a lot quicker (or perhaps win the fight that I might have otherwise lost had I not known some wrestling)...as some guys can take an elbow shot and keep coming...which means that perhaps I'm in a range now (distance) where there's not enough room to keep on striking and get any real power on the move...ie.- it's time to grab him with a wrestling move - not a striking move. Just one example.

Nonetheless - I see where you're coming from and I know that at certain close ranges wing chun striking has a lot more to offer than what we see now in MMA fights - since they will usually go from a longer range type punching sequence than what is used in wing chun to a clinch phase....

and wing chun can definitely fill some gaps in that space - including some potential knockout striking.

Phil Redmond
02-17-2006, 08:29 AM
V. A. Thomas do you guys know him I believe he is a Moy Yat guy, I have gotten to know him quite well over the years and from what I'v seen in tournaments not hear say he is quite smooth, and a gentleman to boot.
V.A. Thomas was my Sihing at Fu Jow Pai and then again at Lee Moy Shan's kwoon. He is a serious martial artist.
Phil

Phil Redmond
02-17-2006, 08:41 AM
I have big respect for the guys "down under" (I hope that includes Kiwis as well), that got to train with Sifu Cheung back in the day. IMO the training was probably harder then. Thank God for me that I kickboxed and was trained at Duncan Leung's school and knew what "fighting" questions to ask of Sifu. I didn't want to be a 'I know the moves' but can't fight Sifu. Some of us are pumping up the volume and training full contact to see what you're strengths and weaknesses are. Outside of getting into street fights the best way to be effective is to work against resisting opponents. But you will also have to work with people outside of WC to really test yourself. We have a BJJ Brown Belt that is also a boxer and standup fighter at the school where I teach. I'm a white belt under him. When I get to the point where I think I know all about fighting I'll have become dilusional ;)
Phil

Kelly Knight
02-26-2006, 03:53 PM
I see that Sifu Dan Wong has been mentioned several times in this thread. I would invite you all to participate in his next visit to the States. It is a rare opportunity and not to be missed!

I have posted a notice with details at:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40559

Thank you and have a great day!

Kelly Knight

Ultimatewingchun
03-26-2006, 11:36 AM
Here's a 1993 photo of a bunch of TWC instructors surrounding William Cheung at a seminar in NYC....

from left to right:

Victor Parlati, Jesse Quinnones, Johnny Clayton, Gary Young, Delroi Flood, Phil Redmond, Jimmy Ng, Sonny Whitmore (sitting).

Phil Redmond
03-26-2006, 04:23 PM
Yes that's Hung Ga Sifu Pedro Cepero-Yee in the photo.
PR

CFT
03-27-2006, 04:01 AM
from left to right:

Victor Parlati, Jesse Quinnones, Johnny Clayton, Gary Young, Delroi Flood, Phil Redmond, Jimmy Ng, Sonny Whitmore (sitting).Phil, is that a trick of the light or is everyone else in the group REALLY tall?

Phil Redmond
03-27-2006, 03:09 PM
Phil, is that a trick of the light or is everyone else in the group REALLY tall?
They're all taller than me. ;)
PR

Matrix
03-27-2006, 05:38 PM
.... is that a trick of the light or is everyone else in the group REALLY tall?The "trick" is not to judge a man by his physical stature. :rolleyes:

CFT
03-28-2006, 02:11 AM
The "trick" is not to judge a man by his physical stature. :rolleyes:No that's true, but I had an image of Phil as at least "average" height - that might still be the case but his peers are "above average" height.

Anyway, I still think it is advantageous to have height and reach advantage, even if Wing Chun is best at in-fighting range. To be able to keep your opponent at your hitting range whilst being outside of his? I would prefer to be of average height than my below average, but hey I've got to work with what I;ve got.

kj
03-28-2006, 09:53 AM
I would prefer to be of average height than my below average, but hey I've got to work with what I;ve got.

He heh heh. This reminds me of my 6th birthday. When I blew out my candles I made a wish that I would become a dalmatian. Guess what happened. :D

Regards,
- kj

Phil Redmond
03-28-2006, 12:12 PM
No that's true, but I had an image of Phil as at least "average" height - that might still be the case but his peers are "above average" height.

Anyway, I still think it is advantageous to have height and reach advantage, even if Wing Chun is best at in-fighting range. To be able to keep your opponent at your hitting range whilst being outside of his? I would prefer to be of average height than my below average, but hey I've got to work with what I;ve got.
I'm a very tall 5'6" :D
PR