shaolin kempo karate

[pruningmantis]

just wanted to ask the board members if they consider fred villari's shaolin kempo karate a legitimate shaolin art?

[Brad]

From what I've seen (if it was that particular branch) it seemed more an offshoot of karate than anything close to most "Shaolin" styles. I've seen some kempo forms and done a couple myself, but don't really know what branches they all came from (including what I did).

Looking at the training history he claims, the kungfu portion seems dubious (or he got bad translation for what he was learning?). For example, Shaolin temple boxing with no stated lineage is a pretty generic term, and Chin Na is not the "secret art of White Tiger" but a type of technique found in most all Chinese martial arts. The only Chinese White Tiger style I can think of belongs to Doo Wai (which I think originates from Emei not Shaolin... I don't exactly trust Doo Wai either so...). Where I read about it: http://www.villari.com/fvhistory.htm

Personally, at first glance, I think it's about as "Shaolin" as say... Shotokan Karate or Tae Kwon Do. Part may trace back to Shaolin in some twisted up round about way, but not really enough to be considered a "Shaolin" system to most people.

[Ou Ji]

Personally, at first glance, I think it's about as "Shaolin" as say... Shotokan Karate or Tae Kwon Do. Part may trace back to Shaolin in some twisted up round about way, but not really enough to be considered a "Shaolin" system to most people.

Funny you should say that because the Shoto in Shotokan refers to it's Shaolin roots. Although Kenpo is a Japanese version of Chinese Kung Fu it looks and feels more like Karate.

The problem is how do you recognize the roots of your art without looking like you're making false claims?

[kwaichang]

The word Shoto is not related to Shaolin but refers to Gichin Funakoshi's pen name as a writer the word Kan is loosely translated as house or The House of Shoto. When Gichin Funakoshi the founder of Shoto Kan later to be known as JKA Karate first learned his martial art in Okinawa the Kara Kanji was translated as China Hand or Kara Te. When he brought it to Japan in the early 1920's he changed the Character to what is known as empty, hand. Only relation to China is the original character and its origins . KC:)

[joedoe]

Funny you should say that because the Shoto in Shotokan refers to it's Shaolin roots. Although Kenpo is a Japanese version of Chinese Kung Fu it looks and feels more like Karate.

The problem is how do you recognize the roots of your art without looking like you're making false claims?

Perhaps you are mixing it up with Shorin Ryu?

[David Jamieson]

Shorin is indeed the japanese version of Shaolin. In fact, one and the same wordwise that is.

The okinawan styles are said to have a closer connection to the imported chinese martial arts than what was manifest later on the mainland.

Goju (hard/soft), another famous okinawan style is said to be based on shaolin 5 animals.

As for how to identify your art with it's origin, I think it is not so bad to put it into the style name, although I am not certain that one can blatantly call it 'x' when it has clearly become something unto itself and therefor would be more practical and honest to call it 'y'.

If there is a direct transferance of methods that can be demonstrated across both, then great, but if there is significant alterations from the origin, then that is a whoe different layer of the onion and the origins can be noted elsewhere and off the main signage.

just my opinion and it is certainly a subjective one...like any opinion. :p

[joedoe]

Shorin is indeed the japanese version of Shaolin. In fact, one and the same wordwise that is.

The okinawan styles are said to have a closer connection to the imported chinese martial arts than what was manifest later on the mainland.

Goju (hard/soft), another famous okinawan style is said to be based on shaolin 5 animals.

...

Is it 5 animals or 5 ancestors? Or Fukien white crane? God I am so confused!

[Ou Ji]

The word Shoto is not related to Shaolin but refers to Gichin Funakoshi's pen name as a writer

Guess I got some bad info off another forum. Although it was Funakoshi's pen name I'm still curious where it came from and it's meaning.

I had read on another forum that Shoto was a reference to Shaolin.

[David Jamieson]

Is it 5 animals or 5 ancestors? Or Fukien white crane? God I am so confused!


when i was learning isshinryu back in the day, a system comprised of shorin and goju mostly, sensei made the connection with 5 animals style. the goju portion was very 'tiger' in its ways and there was a lot of hard ass conditioning associated with the goju, where the shorin stuff was about flow. They complimented each other and were so different from the big karate style of shotokan.

[BM2]

http://www.gichinfunakoshi.com/gichin.htm
One hell of a man.

[Ou Ji]

Funakoshi was a man of Tao. He placed no emphasis on competitions, record breaking or championships. He placed emphasis on individual selfperfection. He believe in the common decency and respect that one human being owed to another. He was the master of masters.

Serious words. ;)

[SKK]

It IS a Shaolin art, however only in the adavancced ranks. This is taught this way because an American can not walk in off the street and take Shaolin. Shaolin must be started at a young age, unless you'd rather spend your first 10 years training by standing in a Crane stance for 30 minutes.

See one of the higher Masters move (perhaps by taking a look at the DVD set) and they look NOTHING like karate. Fred Villari himself spent more times studying Chinese arts than Japanese.

It is just taught different than most shaolin schools in the begining ranks, because all a white belt is capable of really learning too fast is block and punch... so they teach block and punch.

[B-Rad]

This is taught this way because an American can not walk in off the street and take Shaolin.
Sure they can. In fact, they do it all the time. :p

[TenTigers]

Villari's is as close to Shaolin as paint by the numbers is to fine art. I think I should know, I worked for them, trained with their "Higher Masters", taught their "art" , before I got simply frustrated with the phonyness, and I also have been involved in real Martial Arts for over thirty years, and have been teaching "real" Chinese Martial Arts for over twenty of them.
I also would be very interested in knowing the difference between Chinese Boxing, and Kung-Fu, because he lists these as two separate arts.

[richard sloan]

It IS a Shaolin art, however only in the adavancced ranks. This is taught this way because an American can not walk in off the street and take Shaolin. Shaolin must be started at a young age, unless you'd rather spend your first 10 years training by standing in a Crane stance for 30 minutes.

sounds like a sales pitch and pretty fallacious.

[David Jamieson]

It is to Shaolin as America is to sushi.

example, "california roll"

lol.

doesn't mean it's not effective, just means it's copped stuff from a few different places.

The language mish mash is clue enough to know it is not intrinsically or extrinsically connected to shaolin except in perhaps the manner that they are both martial arts and perhaps skk borrows from some of the old shaoolin methods like many do.

[TenTigers]

I think the chinese characters written incorrectly and upside down on his old patches and brochure is a dead give away, as are his interviews, where one year he claims to have learned from a "French Legionaire named LaFey" and another year from the LeBlanc brothers.:p He even claimed that his father would hang several heavybags and he would hitthem, "much in the way a Wing Chun Wooden Man" is used. :eek: Or how he used to claim that he studied Chinese Boxing AS WELL AS KUNG-FU! (WTF???) The Pinan Katas are from SHorin Ryu, but he must have learned them from a book, because the sequences are backwards in some places, which doesn't mean a different interpetation, it means a lack of understanding of waza. And somehow, I have trouble believing that "Ancient Chinese Kata Number one, two, etc" are ancient, Chinese, or anything else for that matter.
Ninja, Pleez!
Look, the guy learned some kenpo,broke away, formed his own school, franchised it, and he's the Grandmaster. Nothing wrong with that. He's a marketing genius. But let's at least be honest.
All you need to do is a little bit of research. Open a book, for chrissakes.
sheesh!

[Hopping Frog]

Most people say that "kempo is just japanese for Chuan Fa", but I don't think that is exactly correct. It seems that although the literary term Kempo does equal the Chinese 'Chuan Fa', the martial art Kempo has branched off into many different styles of its own. There is no martial art Chuan Fa, at least not specifically like other styles. Chuan Fa is just the antiquated term for Kung Fu, referring to all Shaolin styles.

[richard sloan]

... because the sequences are backwards in some places, which doesn't mean a different interpetation, it means a lack of understanding of waza.

wow.


_____________________________________________

[FightingGorilla]

20 years ago, in Huntington beach, California, there was (and possibly still is, I don't live there anymore) a Fred Villari's martial arts school on the corner of Springdale and Bolsa roads.

The instructor there convinced me to sign up for a "$1,000 private lessons agreement up thru blackbelt." I was "supposed" to get unlimited private lessons up through achieving my black belt.

Two weeks after I paid the instructor (his name was Greg) my $1,000, he bailed. He moved to a school on the other side of Los Angeles. And with the L.A. traffic, it was impossible to commute to that school for lessons. It would have been a 2 hour drive one way at rush hour.

Also, the next instructor of the school was a brown belt, not even a black belt.

And he (the next instructor) had no idea about the lessons I had paid for to the previous instructor.

In fact, miraculously, NONE of the paperwork could be located. I had a receipt for my payment, but none of the documents that I signed only the week before could be found anywhere in the office.

I even took the matter to the 4th degree black belt "master" (manager of the chain on the west coast at the time) (seems like his name was "Paul?") and he offered no help whatsoever... he claimed all matters within each school must be settled within the school.. And since the instructor bailed after a very high-pressure sales technique to get me to buy the $1,000 private lesson schedule... and none of the paperwork could be found...

Basically, they screwed me out of $1,000... and the management did NOTHING to help...

And the brown belt would not give me private lessons... he claimed he knew nothing of the deal...

Please steer clear of this mickey-mouse martial arts chain.

*************

Please read the info on their home page very carefully and you will see where Fred Villari learned Shaolin (after you get passed the HUGE speel for the DVD set...more on that in a second...)... (quote) "...Fred Villari was initiated into the principles of Shaolin Temple boxing by his father at an early age. After mastering the techniques his father showed him, young Villari ventured out and worked with other martial artists of different styles..."

Evidently his father showed him his Shaolin skills... at least in this story this time... I would assume his father did not know much, because Villari mastered everything his father knew early on... sorry, but Shaolin is much deeper than that, and takes years to master... maybe a lifetime...

*************

I also encourage you to consider long and heard a few of the questions and answers posed (on purpose as sales techniques) in the "Common Questions" portion of their web site.

You will learn there that they sell the DVD set, and that you can take it home, and learn "in the privacy of your own home" and then... TO GET YOUR BELT AND RANK... all you do is video tape yourself and submit it to Fred Villari (along with $60 per rank) and VOILA... "you know Kung Fu"... ("woah...") [Kind of like when "Neo" learned Kung Fu in the movie "The Matrix" by having a rod shoved in the back of his head... and then a download from a computer mainframe very similar...] ""Woah... I know Kung Fu..."

This is the biggest bunch of horse$hit I have ever heard of in my life...

The entire business is set up for only one thing... to make money... and it has very little to do with authentic martial arts, whether it is some Mickey Mouse system Villari made up himself, or Shaolin anything, Kempo anything, or Karate anything... it's all B.S. for BUCKS...

Fred Villari's entire organization has to be the biggest sham on the face of the planet... (next to Amway, Herbalife, and Quixtar)... a convenient pyramid scheme of martial arts "masters" instead of some product you "start your own business" and promote to all of your friends... (like Amway, Herbalife, and Quixtar)

So....

When are we going to see Fred's DVD-trained black belts competing in the Octagon of the UFC to prove Villari's powerful DVD-trained style?

It won't happen...

So, ... I wonder... do they spar with the pillows off their couch when they learn "in the privacy of their own home????"

Maybe they spar with the family dog?

What a crock of bull-cookies....

********

here is how you can test for your next rank as you study martial arts only by watching DVDs, per a quote from the Villari home page:

"How can I test?

Simply record yourself performing the movements for the level that you are testing for and send in the tape. You will receive a certificate and belt based on your achievement."


yes, they are actually encouraging home-study... here's the quote:


"How effective is learning from DVDs compared to a school?

These are the only videos for learning Shaolin-Kempo-Karate. They have the best masters in the organization featured along with the founder. We have seen excellent results comparable with training in a school. The results will depend on individual effort, motivation and time devoted to training."

(in other words... B.S., B.S., B.S......)


Those two quotes are on the "Common Questions" page of their web site...

here is the quote encouraging "...become a black belt in the prvacy of your own home"

it's on the home page... just scroll down... it's there...

(quote)

"You could spend over $10,000 trying to learn all these techniques and practices in a school, but for just $149.95, you can receive all the knowledge necessary to become a black belt, in the privacy of your home."

What a crock of doo-doo....


Please steer clear of this school... the biggest rip-off in martial arts you will ever find...

Nice to find a thread to vent my true life experiences with these bozos after all these years. What goes around comes around, that's what I say... and it has been long overdue that I put this story in print somewhere.

Being ripped off of $1,000 was a very bad experience. I also did not make very much money at the time, and $1,000 to me was a LOT of money. It still is a lot of money.

The Villari school was also my very first martial arts school, and it could have had an extremely bad influence on me, had I turned my back on the martial arts because of this one event. There should be some form of retribution towards an instructor who "takes your money, then runs", but there is none. The instructor took the money and run, and I didn't get squat from what I had paid... except a "tough luck pal" from the Villari management.

I guess this is why we can voice our opinions on an open forum about the martial arts.

Please seek out any other school available, and NOT the Villari school

I challenge (quote) "Grandmaster" (cough cough) Villari to enter the Octagon of the UFC and prove the worthiness of his style. Just the publicity to do so alone would be worth millions in new students.

I'd love to see Shamrock or one of the boys wipe the mat with this complete idiot.

Or... better yet, let's see one of the DVD-trained black belts get in the Octagon...

Or... any idiot from their "best masters" of the Shaolin Kempo Karate" style...

Won't jappen... they are too busy ripping off people to actually take the challenge and prove that what they have is a viable martial arts system. It's not... it's basically a very viable way to pay somebody money to pump you up to pay them more money. I think I must have a black belt in the Villari style already... they got my $1,000... where's my belt?



FightingGorilla
(ROAR.....) <<sounds like King Kong...>> (see avatar)

.

[FightingGorilla]

It IS a Shaolin art, however only in the adavancced ranks. This is taught this way because an American can not walk in off the street and take Shaolin. Shaolin must be started at a young age, unless you'd rather spend your first 10 years training by standing in a Crane stance for 30 minutes.

See one of the higher Masters move (perhaps by taking a look at the DVD set) and they look NOTHING like karate. Fred Villari himself spent more times studying Chinese arts than Japanese.

It is just taught different than most shaolin schools in the begining ranks, because all a white belt is capable of really learning too fast is block and punch... so they teach block and punch.


This is basically an advertisement for the DVD set, and a way to pump up the rediculous Villari method.

"...only in the advanced ranks"... that's marketing mumbo-jumbo and basically crap...

"...because an American cannot walk in off the streets and take Shaolin"... more marketing crap...

These marketing slogans are basically a very deceptive way to "perpetuate the species" of the students the Villari organization is ripping off, by stimulating "mystical" interest in achieving "the higher ranks"... this is a marketing scheme to keep the students wondering and questioning and coming back to pay their money...

B.S

B.S.

B.S....

Villari's gunk is NOT legitimate Shaolin anything... except a RIPOFF of the word "SHAOLIN"...

A true disgrace to the Shaolin Temple....... kind of like smearing dung on the walls of the temple, and saying "looky what I did"... and expecting the Buddha to be proud...





FightingGorilla

[FightingGorilla]

Ninja, Pleez!


moooooooo----hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!



FG

[shaolin monkey3]

fightinggorilla wrote

20 years ago, in Huntington beach, California, there was (and possibly still is, I don't live there anymore) a Fred Villari's martial arts school on the corner of Springdale and Bolsa roads.

The instructor there convinced me to sign up for a "$1,000 private lessons agreement up thru blackbelt." I was "supposed" to get unlimited private lessons up through achieving my black belt.

Two weeks after I paid the instructor (his name was Greg) my $1,000, he bailed. He moved to a school on the other side of Los Angeles. And with the L.A. traffic, it was impossible to commute to that school for lessons. It would have been a 2 hour drive one way at rush hour.

Also, the next instructor of the school was a brown belt, not even a black belt.

And he (the next instructor) had no idea about the lessons I had paid for to the previous instructor.

In fact, miraculously, NONE of the paperwork could be located. I had a receipt for my payment, but none of the documents that I signed only the week before could be found anywhere in the office.

I even took the matter to the 4th degree black belt "master" (manager of the chain on the west coast at the time) (seems like his name was "Paul?") and he offered no help whatsoever... he claimed all matters within each school must be settled within the school.. And since the instructor bailed after a very high-pressure sales technique to get me to buy the $1,000 private lesson schedule... and none of the paperwork could be found...

Basically, they screwed me out of $1,000... and the management did NOTHING to help...

And the brown belt would not give me private lessons... he claimed he knew nothing of the deal...

Please steer clear of this mickey-mouse martial arts chain.





Dude sorry you got screwed over 20 years ago. Paul taylor and charles mattera were plotting to leave villaris at the time so thats probabley the person who was in charge at the time.
They change the name to ussd- united studios of self defense.www.ussd.com
I wouldn't go there if I was you.

[Shaolinlueb]

last picture i saw of fred villari he looked like he had an alchohal problem.

villari is a typical example of awesome marketing but bad karate. and it goes to show you you dont need to know much about martial arts to cash in on it.

[SenseiShellie]

ok...villari and mattera are not in the best shape, but they know kenpo really well. Is it fair to claim the art as Shaolin? No. There's no Shaolin in it. However, it's a good form of Kenpo...

[larrytheninja]

last picture i saw of fred villari he looked like he had an alchohal problem.

villari is a typical example of awesome marketing but bad karate. and it goes to show you you dont need to know much about martial arts to cash in on it.


Funny the same can be said about his student Charles Mattera.

[Bon Sau]

... an American can not walk in off the street and take Shaolin.

don't let Shi Yan Ming find out, he may decide to move back to China!

http://www.usashaolintemple.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=62&Itemid=82

or Shi De Shan

http://www.houstonshaolintemple.com/

[SaintSage]

FightingGorilla, how do you feel about Wing Lam and his correspondence program?

[xcakid]

This was my first foray into Shaolin Kempo: Ralph Castro (http://www.shaolinkenpo.com/)

I then moved to SoCal and all I could find was Villari schools. The art itself is very good. There is a thread here about USSD you can read my comments about that.

As far as my experience goes. I like Ralph Castro's Shaolin Kempo much better. It is more closely to CMA than anything else.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I don't know....I saw some of their sets on youtube.com.......there's almost no mobility in the forms.....not a lot of footwork transition. Shaolin forms have plenty of lateral movement in them, being such as rooting/stances/and mobility are some of the most important elements of Shaolin martial arts. Even Shaolin-do (my main MA) has 20X more mobility in their forms. I'm starting studies in traditional Shaolin Chuan from a wushu instructor in North Atlanta..........plenty of mobility there, too.

[xcakid]

A lot of the Kempo forms in the colored belt levels are pretty plain and basic. However, once you get into 3rd black and above, you start getting into the animal forms like Snake, Dragon, Tiger. Still, the stances are not going to be as low and as perfect as you Traditional Chinese Martial Artist.

As an example:

When I took my black belt test for Shaolin Kempo, we did not have to hold stances or were critiqued for them.

When I took my test in Ying Jow Pai, Sil Lum and my current school for long fist, part of the test is holding your stances for specified period of time. At black belt level they expect you to have to hold it and keep your thigh parallel to the ground.


Shaolin Kempo, basically foregoes the classical stances. It really is not a true Shaolin Arts per se. It is somewhat of a misnomer, however it is as close to CMA you would get from an American derived system.

American Kenpo (Ed Parkers system) is even worse in there forms.

For classical forms, stances and proper way of rooting yourself, nothing beats classical kung fu.

[Shaolin Wookie]

It really is not a true Shaolin Arts per se. It is somewhat of a misnomer, however it is as close to CMA you would get from an American derived system.
.

Well, I might agree with that.....

[David Jamieson]

shaolin kempo karate is to martial arts as Chrysler Toyota Bicycle is to F1 racing.

:p

It's obvious to most who actually practice martial arts what this stuff is.
It's like i said, a california roll. Not really sushi at all, just a thing to make people feel like they might have actually had sushi when in fact they've had nothing of the sort.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Hence, like XCA kid said, it's "as close to CMA you would get from an American derived system."

[sk girl]

A lot of the Kempo forms in the colored belt levels are pretty plain and basic. However, once you get into 3rd black and above, you start getting into the animal forms like Snake, Dragon, Tiger. Still, the stances are not going to be as low and as perfect as you Traditional Chinese Martial Artist.

As an example:

When I took my black belt test for Shaolin Kempo, we did not have to hold stances or were critiqued for them.

When I took my test in Ying Jow Pai, Sil Lum and my current school for long fist, part of the test is holding your stances for specified period of time. At black belt level they expect you to have to hold it and keep your thigh parallel to the ground.


Shaolin Kempo, basically foregoes the classical stances. It really is not a true Shaolin Arts per se. It is somewhat of a misnomer, however it is as close to CMA you would get from an American derived system.

American Kenpo (Ed Parkers system) is even worse in there forms.

For classical forms, stances and proper way of rooting yourself, nothing beats classical kung fu.



Hey theres a villaris in austin tx.

[SenseiShellie]

yeah...it's run by a 5th degree (who's been in the system as long as me...where's my 5th dan?)

[TheSwedishChef]

I used to do a shaolin family style. The first time I saw kempo my eyes bugged out. Our movements were more rounded and we had different weapons but it was frighteningly similar.

[RonH]

It is a shaolin art, in terms of just the parts of the 'system' that are shaolin. But, that's it. I had studied it for a couple hours, but then I thought 'wait a sec, he and I specifically said it was a more rigid and other directional way of doing Taijiquan'. Thankfully, it was a free lesson. It's a hybrid system and the same 4 areas it covers can easily be mooched from other systems and adapted to your own. If you're already well versed in a system, you can still adapt the movements of other systems to be in line with the philosophy of your system. I've taken bits and pieces of lots of systems to cover areas that aren't normally taught in taiji. If you know about hip rotation, deflection/blocking, etc. and know the guiding principles of you system, go to a bookstore and read a bunch of martial art books and look for things you can practice that cover areas that you haven't studied. Some systems focus on the legs, some on the hands. If you can understand the 'spirit' of the system or the 'spirit' of the movement, you can make the necessary changes to make it work for you.

It isn't about learning a whole new system from books. It's about deepening your understanding of the main system you work with by putting the philosophy of that system into different situations. Take Taiji. It's a close quarters system that focuses less on legs and more on arms. There isn't that much for ground fighting, but you can still take the taiji principles and use them when you're on your back on the ground or when you're on the ground on top. You can use these principles when doing aerial movements, though I've never heard of CMAs focusing a lot on aerial movements. I might be wrong.

The same can be done with any other system's philosphy. If you're wondering if you want to take it, see if you can rent the videos somewhere and make a copy. It'd be cheaper. It's very difficult to teach when you can't move 360 degrees around the student. We haven't gotten to the point where we can project holograms of others and move around them to critique students. Someone might even be selling them on ebay.

Since it is only partially shaolin, I'd say no. For me, it's either shaolin or it's not or it's either Japanese or it's not. There is no in-between. Any hybrid style that uses parts and pieces from different lands is not [whatever name]. It's a hybrid. No ifs, ans or buts about it. Many modern ways of practicing forms often add other things from other systems to them. For whatever their reasoning, that would still make it a hybrid. I think some people have taken shotokan karate and added things from systems from other lands (I've never studied shotokan, but this is something I've heard has happened within the last couple of decades), which would make it a hybrid, too, even if they put the name karate in it.

When you combine 2 different metals together, say steel and iron, you don't say it's steel and you don't say it's iron. You call it an alloy.

[Mega-Foot]

But why is it, then, that when you combine a chinese person with an african american, you call it a "Chinegro"?

Personally, I call it an Africasian-American (I'm Japanese, myself)....but it seems to disprove your point, doesn't it?

[RonH]

Not really. Such designations are in reference to one's ancestry/medical history/medical potential (both good and bad). When it comes to martial arts, let's say you want to combine both internal and external principles together. There is one form of karate that I heard of that does that. I forget the name. The principles of the style are dyametrically opposed to one another. So, you wouldn't say the style is all soft or all hard. You'd say it's a combination. Now, one might say 'well, in taijiquan, there are both hard and soft principles that are used and the degree you use them to switches; being able to judiciously know how much of each for the given situation shows the extent of your knowledge.'

While that is true, taijiquan is still considered a soft/internal style. It isn't about sometimes you use a soft component and sometimes you use a hard one. That wouldn't make it fall into either category alone. If you wanted to go entirely soft with taijiquan, you'd have to use no muscular control at all. It'd involve telekinesis. But, since taijiquan schools aren't rolling out flying martial artist after flying martial artist, you still need some muscular contraction/extension. But, the level you use muscular movements doesn't make taijiquan an external art.

The main identifier of an external art is that power is not generated from cultivating energy and body movements help to deliver that energy to the target, as is defined by an internal art. The focus is just the muscles and body mechanics. Even though energy is cultivated, while you are just focusing on body mechanics and muscular development, it still isn't the defining characteristic. I don't use reception of incoming energy as the main focus because both hard and soft styles are open to using it in a fight.

Let's say someone learned shotokan karate and decided they wanted to add some capoiera that they thought would be beneficial to the cirriculum. If the instructor taught both, they wouldn't be teaching just shotokan karate. They'd be teaching a combination of shotokan and capoiera.

But, let's get back to your point of ancestral designations. Words, such as Chinegro (I've honestly never heard of this one before) and Africasian, say that the person this title belongs to isn't just African/black or chinese/Asian and that's my point.

Genetically, anatomically modern humans sprang up around 200,000 years ago, I believe is the date (it's been a while since my college evolutionary bio class) and this would be humans all over the globe at that time. Evolution in different parts of the world created traits for those environments, both physical and cultural determiners. If the person has both chinese/Asian and African/black ancestry, their DNA shows a predominance towards the genetic sequences of people from those specific areas. Their visible features would depend on what's dominate in their genetic code, as well as any actions that would influence how those codes are expressed while they're growing up, which could even be in another place alltogether, like growing up in Iceland or Norway. But, they aren't just African or just Asian, which would be indicative of using just those titles alone.

[xcakid]

Let's not forget that various fork of Shaolin Kempo lineage.

Al Dacascos lineage split off and made his style won hop kuen do. This is more Shaolin in its theories, training and forms. Whereas Ed Parker is more Karate. Adriano Emperado, Nick Cerios and Ralph Castro all took the hybrid type system.

This is really a no brainer seeing as the founders come from both Chinese and Japanese lines. James Mitose having the Japanese background and Kwai Sun Chow having the Chinese boxing background.

[TenTigers]

I just love the fact that they have forms named,"Ancient Chinese KATA#1,2,3,etc".
They refer to kenpo techniques as "Kenpos" and jiu-jutsu waza as 'Jiu-Jutsus"
(I'll do a kenpo, then go right into a jiu-jutsu, and then I'm gonna hit ya with a "krotty!")
it gets better...
Flamingo (crane stance)
trigger finger (phoenix-eye strike)
stepping stool kick (jump front or scissor kick)
or is that, "step in stool kick?"
they called a tornado kick, a "Kung-Fu Kick" in the schools near me! arrggh!
yeah...that sure sounds like a Shaolin art to me.
Any time you have a commercial school where the students are encouraged to wear a gazillion patches all over their gi, and a Karate Kid headband, you are simply catering to those who want to SAY they do Martial Arts, wear all the neat outfits, twirl candystriped nunchaku, and shout,"Ki-Ya!" Like guys who wear do-ragz with skulls on them, Harley Davidson brand leathers, but don't ride.
Ooooosss! (ack)

[unkokusai]

But why is it, then, that when you combine a chinese person with an african american, you call it a "Chinegro"?

Personally, I call it an Africasian-American (I'm Japanese, myself)....but it seems to disprove your point, doesn't it?


Yeah, people don't generally say that, and I don't buy any **** thing you have to say about yourself...:rolleyes:

[TenTigers]

I am Cauc=asian..um, from the island of Caucasia, which is a long island off the coast of China...town. Yeah, that's it.

[xcakid]

I am Cauc=asian..um, from the island of Caucasia, which is a long island off the coast of China...town. Yeah, that's it.

You didn't by chance live on Bigwok Way in China....town did you? Cause I too lived on that island. I was in the military and was stationed there. However, I did move to Smallwok Way when the rent got jacked up and also Hooker Drive. Ahhh those were the days. Drinking beers, eating chikety china the chinese chicken, you have a drumstick and brain stop tickin. Watchin' X-Files with no lights on
We're dans la maison. I hope the Smoking Man's in this one. Like Harrison Ford I'm getting frantic Like Sting I'm tantric Like Snickers, guaranteed to satisfy


:D :D :D

[sk girl]

shaolin kempo karate is to martial arts as Chrysler Toyota Bicycle is to F1 racing.

:p

It's obvious to most who actually practice martial arts what this stuff is.
It's like i said, a california roll. Not really sushi at all, just a thing to make people feel like they might have actually had sushi when in fact they've had nothing of the sort.


HA HA good one!

It sad when the ussd people are confronted with the truth about what art their really learning and they wont let go.

[SenseiShellie]

I just love the fact that they have forms named,"Ancient Chinese KATA#1,2,3,etc".
They refer to kenpo techniques as "Kenpos" and jiu-jutsu waza as 'Jiu-Jutsus"
(I'll do a kenpo, then go right into a jiu-jutsu, and then I'm gonna hit ya with a "krotty!")
it gets better...
Flamingo (crane stance)
trigger finger (phoenix-eye strike)
stepping stool kick (jump front or scissor kick)
or is that, "step in stool kick?"
they called a tornado kick, a "Kung-Fu Kick" in the schools near me! arrggh!
yeah...that sure sounds like a Shaolin art to me.
Any time you have a commercial school where the students are encouraged to wear a gazillion patches all over their gi, and a Karate Kid headband, you are simply catering to those who want to SAY they do Martial Arts, wear all the neat outfits, twirl candystriped nunchaku, and shout,"Ki-Ya!" Like guys who wear do-ragz with skulls on them, Harley Davidson brand leathers, but don't ride.
Ooooosss! (ack)

The school near honestly sounds like a piece of work, and is definately different than the ones on the west coast. Ancient Chinese kata is a new one, even to me. Those are not Chinese at all! Kempo's are just various techniques. JuJitsu Waza is a new one to me...never heard that one at all. Flamingo stance is a chamber for a kick. That's all it is. Stepping Stool kick is what they call a jumping front kick...they have a different kick called a scissor kick. It's a front and a back kick in the air, at the same time. The schools out here don't have a "kung fu kick" they call them tornado kicks. You have the interesting one that falls in with Steve DeMasco...who is a work in himself. Sigh...

[ninja matt]

The school near honestly sounds like a piece of work, and is definately different than the ones on the west coast. Ancient Chinese kata is a new one, even to me. Those are not Chinese at all! Kempo's are just various techniques. JuJitsu Waza is a new one to me...never heard that one at all. Flamingo stance is a chamber for a kick. That's all it is. Stepping Stool kick is what they call a jumping front kick...they have a different kick called a scissor kick. It's a front and a back kick in the air, at the same time. The schools out here don't have a "kung fu kick" they call them tornado kicks. You have the interesting one that falls in with Steve DeMasco...who is a work in himself. Sigh...

Ancient Chinese Kata:confused: Thats messed up. Lie to everybody and sooner or latter it will come back to you like ussd lying a$$

[ninja matt]

just wanted to ask the board members if they consider fred villari's shaolin kempo karate a legitimate shaolin art?


No!! Its Villari kempo the same as ussd. Villari and ussd just use the shaolin name to get people to think their learning a shaolin martial art. If your new with ussd or villaris ask your instructor where is the shaolin in shaolin kempo?

[SenseiShellie]

It's a good Kempo style...I wouldn't classify it anywhere as being Shaolin or CMA

[Mega-Foot]

I went back to the local USSD school in LA, mostly to hook up with Jenny Herzog again. We had lunch at a Dim Sum and talked about martial arts.

She makes a convincing argument for USSD's authenticity. Later, we went back to her place and had a tussle on the mats. I wan't impressed with her martial skills, but I do believe what she says about her style and the "defectors". And besides, I'm used to women going prone for me in very little time.

I really think you guys ought to find a new venue to vent your frustrations. Your hatred for USSD is really little more than outrage at being cut for being out of shape, or for taking a little off the top (in terms of profits).

Grow up.

[tattooedmonk]

I went back to the local USSD school in LA, mostly to hook up with Jenny Herzog again. We had lunch at a Dim Sum and talked about martial arts.

She makes a convincing argument for USSD's authenticity. Later, we went back to her place and had a tussle on the mats. I wan't impressed with her martial skills, but I do believe what she says about her style and the "defectors". And besides, I'm used to women going prone for me in very little time.

I really think you guys ought to find a new venue to vent your frustrations. Your hatred for USSD is really little more than outrage at being cut for being out of shape, or for taking a little off the top (in terms of profits).

Grow up.Yeah right! Look kid you are going beyond the point of being funny anymore and all the lies tells us at least one thing ...you need to grow up . I advise everyone to stop responding to this idiots posts . You are just adding fuel to the fire. Best way to put out this fire is by removing the fuel.

Oh and by the way , using this persons name and slandering them in your post can get you sued .....or worse.

[ninja matt]

It's a good Kempo style...I wouldn't classify it anywhere as being Shaolin or CMA

I like ed parkers kenpo better. It's more practical. USSD's shaolin defensive maneuvers suck!!!! They have no practical fighting application in them.
If you train at ussd now get out while your still young before they steal your soul and money.

[SenseiShellie]

I like ed parkers kenpo better. It's more practical. USSD's shaolin defensive maneuvers suck!!!! They have no practical fighting application in them.
If you train at ussd now get out while your still young before they steal your soul and money.

Already done that. Ran away with my soul intact...money wasn't but my soul is! Ed Parker has good Kenpo. Like I was saying though, USSD has good Kempo...Shaolin is a whole other issue...

[tattooedmonk]

Already done that. Ran away with my soul intact...money wasn't but my soul is! Ed Parker has good Kenpo. Like I was saying though, USSD has good Kempo...Shaolin is a whole other issue... So what is your knowledge in or on Shaolin and CMAS??

[SenseiShellie]

So what is your knowledge in or on Shaolin and CMAS??

From USSD? None. There is no CMA in the style. Fred Villari created all their "Shaolin" forms. USSD, as well as Fred Villari's Studios teach Kempo. However, I study with Tak Wah Eng and practice his style of Kung Fu, as well as study Chen style Taiji Ch'uan. I'm learning more about it as I go along.

[sk girl]

I like ed parkers kenpo better. It's more practical. USSD's shaolin defensive maneuvers suck!!!! They have no practical fighting application in them.
If you train at ussd now get out while your still young before they steal your soul and money.

Yeah no kidding!;)
Ed Parkes kenpo is good way better then matteras ussd kempo.

[wyatt1970]

hey fighting gorilla you also forgot to say that that brown belt that took over was also a student at that same school that you worked out with and that this was his first school and he was just put into that school and the fact that he was only 18 at the time,

[wyatt1970]

and sk girl for you to say that ed parkers kenpo is better than any other style is just obsurd, there is no such thing as one martial art better than another, it is the martial artist. there are styles that are best for some people and some not so good for those same people,,

[TenTigers]

"and sk girl for you to say that ed parkers kenpo is better than any other style is just obsurd, there is no such thing as one martial art better than another, it is the martial artist. there are styles that are best for some people and some not so good for those same people,,"

not always true. There are definately styles that are better simply because they are using real principles, theories, and technique, structure etc, rather than made-up nonesense, that was created by watching bad Kung-Fu movies and have no basis in reality. Obviously, you have not actually studied much more than this one, made-up system, so you really have nothing to base your opinion upon. You need to get out there, do some research, watch other classes, train with others, and perhaps you can be a more "educated consumer."
Yes, some styles are better for some people. There will always be the people that want to wear the colored belts, matching headband, patches of the five animals, twirl a nunchaku, and say they study Martial Arts. For these people, there are plenty of schools that fullfil that need.

[wyatt1970]

its the person that makes the style not the style that makes the person,, for instance a person who is 5 feet tall i don't think a tae kwon do would be a good style,, and a person who is 6' 5 and weighs 175 judo probably wouldn't be great being a lower center of gravity is ideal for those styles, now arguably there might be a style that is better suited for certain applications, but the age old question of which martial arts is the best will go on forever, and just to let you know that even though i have gone to ussd and villaris i have also taken tae kwon do in arizona,, shotokon in north carolina and wady ryu in the phillipine, all since 1984 so i think i have enough experience where i feel confident in saying that no style is the absolute best but maybe best in certain applications, depending on what those may be

[wyatt1970]

oopppss sorry spelling error,,, wado ryu

[TenTigers]

I understand where you're coming from, Wyatt, and from your recent post-I agree with your points. However, I am puzzled how you can train in these other systems and then go to USSD and Villari's. oops..what am I sayin? I was in MA for ten years and ended up not only training at a Villari school, but becoming the instructor there.(yeah, I did some things...):o
When I moved out here, I needed a place to train. When I asked the then instructor there, he said the system was Shaolin Kempo. I had been teaching Ed Parker's(Tracy) Kenpo, and also thought that they were teaching a form of Ralph Castro's Shaolin Kenpo, so I thought it sounded cool. Then when I asked which forms they taught, they said they did Pinan Kata. Having a backround in Tang Soo Do, we did the same forms-Pyong-Ahn Hyung, so I thought I would be comfortable there.
Well, needless to say, after several months I ended up as the instructor there (The Kenpo I had previously learned taught 30 self-defense techniques for orange belt-Villaris taught less than that for Black Belt!) WHile there, I was also continuing my Tang Soo Do, as well as Wing Chun, and Hung Kuen outside of class. Actually, my TSD instructor would train me privately in the school after hours.
The techniques I learned bore little resemblance to the Kenpo I knew, and even less to the Gung-Fu. In fact, many of their techniques, stances, structure, were not simply different, such as a different stylistic interpetation, they were downright incorrect. The Pinan sets had movements that were backwards in sequence, as if learned from pictures without real explanations, their other forms, (you must have recognized "Statue of the Crane" as a rip off of Hangetsu, I believe?)"Ancient Chinese Kata...":eek: completely made-up, with no validity, and many of the self-defense techniques were more dangerous to the defender than to the attacker.
I could not teach these techniques to innocent students and face myself. Besides, they wanted me to invest in their franchise, which anyone will tell you, was not a good deal, and who wants to be wrapped up in a contract teaching something you don't believe in?
But I was young....what was your excuse?:confused:

[TenTigers]

I will say this however. A few of the self-defense techniques were good, when re-structured. I think I saw two of them in Steve Sanders' Kenpo book. I guess Villari owned the same book.:rolleyes:

[wyatt1970]

well the first thing i will say is this saying of "ancient chinese katas" i have never in 23 years of being involved in villari/ussd as a student or instructor or just a friend of the higher ranked masters/instructors. not saying some of the instructors haven't ever said that but they would just be misquided. like i said i don't believe there is any one perfect martial art for everyone, if there was why did jun fan lee leave wing chun and develop jeet kun do, or mr. norris create chun kuk do or all the others that have done the same,, i guess the difference in the experiences i had with ussd/villari's was none of my instructors tried to brainwash us into thinking they where the best, they would teach us to learn but not to have blinders on and to look at everything and take what works for you and what doesn't to get rid of it. i remember one of my intructors said he didn't want to train me to be as good as he is but he wanted to train me to be better than him that way the martial arts is always evolving and improving. now i am no expert in the many many many different martial arts out like alot of people on here seem to claim, so where statue/stature of the crane came from or derived from i wouldn't know but i i know most of the forms (atleast in ussd/villari) are based on various attackers and that the upper black belt forms are more cma than japanese in they way they are done,, are they traditional cma? no i doubt it, but i don't really understand how some people claim that any art is crap based n there own feeling, how many people on here can claim that a form they learned are really from 100 years ago much less 1000 years ago, i am not saying there aren't but with so much of the paperwork and history lost forever how can it be documented. i love all martial arts and think everyone should love them all for what they contribute to our (martial arts community). there are alot of people that have opened martial arts chains not just ussd/villari, oh and by the way look at page 2 of this forum from the name "fighting gorilla" i was that brown belt, yes i was young barely 18 i was with villari when the split happened and i saw it all, i got my black belt under the villari banner when they tested in the original san clemente school and the test lasted 8 hours, standing in stances in what seemed like forever and basics over and over. i trained under the,, and if you trained in ma. you would know the names like larry burns, greg crouse, bill mailman, ben balucci,frank lay, and of course mr taylor, and i am sure many more that i can't remember. maybe i should stop here before i **** to many people off, just wanted to give you a little background into where i came from in the orginization and am still good friends with alot of the instructors

[sk girl]

and sk girl for you to say that ed parkers kenpo is better than any other style is just obsurd, there is no such thing as one martial art better than another, it is the martial artist. there are styles that are best for some people and some not so good for those same people,,

I never said Ed Parkers style was better than any other style.
I said Ed Parkers was way better than Matteras style.
In my opinion mattera/villaris kempo style is a good base but after black you should start to cross train with other instructors and styles.
If you dont know what other styles have to offer you how do you know that your style is the best?

[sk girl]

its the person that makes the style not the style that makes the person,, for instance a person who is 5 feet tall i don't think a tae kwon do would be a good style,, and a person who is 6' 5 and weighs 175 judo probably wouldn't be great being a lower center of gravity is ideal for those styles, now arguably there might be a style that is better suited for certain applications, but the age old question of which martial arts is the best will go on forever, and just to let you know that even though i have gone to ussd and villaris i have also taken tae kwon do in arizona,, shotokon in north carolina and wady ryu in the phillipine, all since 1984 so i think i have enough experience where i feel confident in saying that no style is the absolute best but maybe best in certain applications, depending on what those may be

How far did you get in villaris?
Did Grandmaster Fred Villari test you for Black or did Armen?
Whats wady ryu like? Is it a stick and knife style?

[sk girl]

wyatt1970,
What was going on when the break up of villaris and mattera's ussd?
Did mattera leave over money? I heard Mattera stole a bunch of money from villari, is this true?
Was their fights? Did they go in each others school and harass the instructors?
Who did you leave with?
Do you still train with villaris?

[TenTigers]

everytime I hear of a break off, they always say that they stole money. The guy I replaced was accused of this, When I left,someone told me I was accused,Charles Matterra was accused. I think they try to discredit the people who left so students don't follow them when they re-open. Then again, perhaps when they say they stole, they meant money in the form of students. Around me, there were quite a few Villari's schools, and suddenly they were gone and USSD sprang up.
But, opening up in your neighborhood, "stealing from your ricebowl," and outright embezzlement are two different things. Who knows? could simply be mudslinging.

[sk girl]

TenTigers,
How long ago did you leave?
Did you run a dojo with ussd or villaris?
Did you hear about mattera beating up former instructors that left him?
My instructor said the same thing when people left. They were stealing, the couldn't hack it,they were sleeping with students, they weren't following the program.
In reality these instructors wised up and knew they were being scamed and there was no way to make money with ussd so they left. Some opened their own dojo some got jobs, but most I bet are much happier now that they left ussd.

[sk girl]

Hey I found Master Bill Mailmans web site
http://www.umaassociation.com/


Hey wyatt1970,
Do you know why Master Bill Mailman left Villaris?
Did he take some schools with him?

[sk girl]

Hey wyatt1970,
What rank was frank lay when ussd broke off from villaris?

[wyatt1970]

sk girl,

no villari tested me for black belt,, i know of armen but never really knew him personally, i don't know what rank he was when i got my black but i dont think he was any higher than 3rd black, i got my black belt from gm villari, and the other signers on my black belt certificate was prof. mattera, master taylor, and larry burns.

as far as wado ryu, the founder studied under funakoshi and then started wado ryu, i did not study it very long, only about a year when i was stationed in the phillipines but it was more of an okinowan style than any thing, hard linear movements.

the breakup between villari/mattera from what i was told and heard as the whole situation was gm villari asked prof. to go out to california and expand the f.v.s.s.d. and he would get half of the studios and i guess there was some dissagrement after it was astablished and there was a lawsuit and from what i understand prof. mattera got the schools in california, now i am not saying that was exactly what happended as i am sure the only ones who know for sure is the higher ups in the orginization at that time. i never saw any instructors from either side "visit" and of the other sides schools i heard rumors but i don't believe it ever happened but again i never sw it for sure so i don't know, i stayed with villari in the original huntington beach school for a while then went into the marin corp. and when i got out i went with ussd, i do not train with villaris as when i got out of the marines there wasn't many f.v.s.s.d. left and still only a few in california and almost all of the instructors i trained with where with ussd so i went with them,,

i saw bill mailmans web site,, he used to run the long beach school and then went on his own and moved to central california, i always liked mr. mailman and wish him nothing but the best as i do all the other people that have left either side. no i do not know why mr. mailman left f.v.s.s.d. that was not the type of things students asked their instructors back then, he taught the same thing and was very effective instructor and master, he opened schools after he left so no he only left f.v.s.s.d. with his original school.

master lay was a first when i first started and i think when he left anaheim and moved up to san fran area he was either a 2nd or third black belt, i want to say he was a 3rd.

[SenseiShellie]

Hey Wyatt,

Armen was a 4th Degree when he came out to California. I know because he was my instructor. I think I might know you...

[SenseiShellie]

everytime I hear of a break off, they always say that they stole money. The guy I replaced was accused of this, When I left,someone told me I was accused,Charles Matterra was accused. I think they try to discredit the people who left so students don't follow them when they re-open. Then again, perhaps when they say they stole, they meant money in the form of students. Around me, there were quite a few Villari's schools, and suddenly they were gone and USSD sprang up.
But, opening up in your neighborhood, "stealing from your ricebowl," and outright embezzlement are two different things. Who knows? could simply be mudslinging.


Whenever you leave the system, you are always accused of stealing. Whether or not you did it is a whole other issue. I never took a dime from my school, and yet I was accused of stealing. It's sad and pathetic really.

[sk girl]

Whenever you leave the system, you are always accused of stealing. Whether or not you did it is a whole other issue. I never took a dime from my school, and yet I was accused of stealing. It's sad and pathetic really.


Yeah they said the same thing to me too. USSD said I stole money from them too, lying scum bags.

[wyatt1970]

you never answered my original question,, was it the seal beach and yorba linda school you taught at? and no they don't always say that,, i have seen alot of people come and go, i am not saying it doesnt happen but that isn't the standard excuse for people

[SenseiShellie]

I sent you a private message that answered your question. I taught at Seal Beach but I never taught at Yorba Linda. That's Greg Jones' school. It has always been my experience that the phrase "so and so stole from this dojo" has been used whenever someone leaves. Maybe you don't have that experience in your region.

[wyatt1970]

yes but you also taught at another school, fullerton, or placentia or somewhere in northern orange county,, i was just wondering which d.m. (or his assistant) that you said took the studio money and never paid the bills?

[SenseiShellie]

yes but you also taught at another school, fullerton, or placentia or somewhere in northern orange county,, i was just wondering which d.m. (or his assistant) that you said took the studio money and never paid the bills?

For legal reasons, I will not post that person's name. If you want to know, you can PM me.

[wyatt1970]

yes i really know the reasons you won't post the name, because you accuse two district managers of stealing from the school, two district managers that i have known for 20 years, and both of them are pretty well off so i am sure they don't need to steal a couple of thousand dollars from your school, i am so sorry michelle that you joined the ussd hater bandwagon, and when i talked to you before you even joined ussd you had nothing good to say about the villari school you went to, now having said that do instructors steal money from the school, i am sure there have been, but i think it is so few and so far in between. all the bashers out there where do you think the martial arts community would be without the exposure of ussd. like they say there is no such thing as bad exposure. for all of you posters that i do not know like sk girl i don't want to you think i am bashing on you i am not but i think alot of people bash here just to bash and probably haven't spent a year with them much less as much time as i have,

[SenseiShellie]

yes i really know the reasons you won't post the name, because you accuse two district managers of stealing from the school, two district managers that i have known for 20 years, and both of them are pretty well off so i am sure they don't need to steal a couple of thousand dollars from your school, i am so sorry michelle that you joined the ussd hater bandwagon, and when i talked to you before you even joined ussd you had nothing good to say about the villari school you went to, now having said that do instructors steal money from the school, i am sure there have been, but i think it is so few and so far in between. all the bashers out there where do you think the martial arts community would be without the exposure of ussd. like they say there is no such thing as bad exposure. for all of you posters that i do not know like sk girl i don't want to you think i am bashing on you i am not but i think alot of people bash here just to bash and probably haven't spent a year with them much less as much time as i have,

No, the real reason I don't say the names is for legal reasons. Plain and simple. Ok...first off, I didn't accuse them of stealing anything. I said it was funny how our rent checks were bouncing and I had no access to an account, but yet I was accused of stealing. The person I was giving the money to had access to an account, while I never did. I never gave my deposits to a DM, I gave them to an assistant DM. Let me paint a picture for you. You put your hard work in a dojo...you put so much effort in taking it from not paying its own bills to be in the position to break even, and yet, it's not even making that. So, you go get a second job to help pay for the first job bills. No problem. Now, It's the day that everyone is leaving for China, except me. I can't afford to go. I wasn't getting paid from the dojo, and I couldn't afford to leave my other job for that period because none of the utility bills or bushido supplies would have been paid. Anyway, I get to the dojo at 1:00 pm on Friday...one hour before I open up, so I can clean up and get ready for the rest of the day. At approximately 1:15 pm, someone entered my door. He had some papers and asked if I was the owner. I said no, but I was a manager. He gave me papers and said "This is from your landlord. You're being served" This man was a clerk from the court. I looked at the papers and it was a 3 day eviction notice. I sank into my desk, closed the blinds to my office window, locked my office door, and sat there and cried for about 15 minutes. I realized that it was 1:45 and I had a lesson at 2:30. So, I got up, went to the bathroom, washed my face and then called the DM. He was already on the plane so his phone was off. So, I called the next person to let him know what just transpired. He said to start calling the landlord. Let her know everyone was in China and that they would take care of it when they got back. My assistants came in, so I had them run the 2:30 private class for me. Meanwhile, I was trying to find out from the landlord what was wrong. She told me the rent checks for the last couple months had bounced and we were still 3 months behind in the rent because of the previous instructor...so that makes it 5 months behind in the rent? Something like that.

Anyway, I got in touch with the assistant DM. He was in the car, on the way to the airport, with another DM that knew me personally. It was then and there, I was accused of something horrible. I was accused by both of them of signing the check for the rent over to myself. THAT NEVER EVEN HAPPENED! I NEVER DID THAT! I LOVED THAT SCHOOL! I WOULD NEVER HAVE DONE ANYTHING TO EVER MAKE THE SCHOOL GO BROKE OR BE EVICTED! Now, by this time, it's about 4:00 pm. I had a ninja night slumber party. Do you think I wanted to be there knowing what was about to transpire? I didn't. I wanted to go home, but I didn't. I made that the best ninja night those kids would have had...it was going to be their last one. I stayed in that dojo with the kids and my assistants. I got a call from my DM and he said that he thought the rents had been taken care of. I said they weren't. There was something wrong with the checks. The landlord deposited it and she said the checks bounced. So, the landlord said we had 3 days to clean out everything. I took all my stuff...that I had put in there and took it home the next day. I was ACCUSED OF STEALING MY OWN EQUIPMENT THAT I'VE HAD SINCE I WAS 14 YEARS OLD! It was sad, really. I put all that hard work in to that place. I went in on the weekend and painted it. I was saving up to buy the dojo new carpet.

In the end, someone came thru to help the dojo, but at that time, it was too late. I was done. I didn't want to be a chief instructor anymore. I wanted to go back to school. That's what I did. Someone else took over the school for 3 months, and when he only had 5 students there, he quit. The school was evicted after 3 months.

When it's all said and done, I was paid back every cent that was owed to me because I was right. I didn't steal anything that wasn't mine...the weapons, my desk, my vaccum cleaner, my computer, my shelves, my videos, my kicking shields, my punching targets, my blockers...my things. Notice a theme here? I left that dojo with what was in there when I came to it the first night. 4 kick shields, 2 focus mits, a really heavy hanging bag and the broken desk and chair. That's what I started with and that's what I left it with. The only thing I didn't do was leave 70 - 100 holes in the wall. That wouldn't have been nice.

[NJM]

No, the real reason I don't say the names is for legal reasons. Plain and simple. Ok...first off, I didn't accuse them of stealing anything. I said it was funny how our rent checks were bouncing and I had no access to an account, but yet I was accused of stealing. The person I was giving the money to had access to an account, while I never did. I never gave my deposits to a DM, I gave them to an assistant DM. Let me paint a picture for you. You put your hard work in a dojo...you put so much effort in taking it from not paying its own bills to be in the position to break even, and yet, it's not even making that. So, you go get a second job to help pay for the first job bills. No problem. Now, It's the day that everyone is leaving for China, except me. I can't afford to go. I wasn't getting paid from the dojo, and I couldn't afford to leave my other job for that period because none of the utility bills or bushido supplies would have been paid. Anyway, I get to the dojo at 1:00 pm on Friday...one hour before I open up, so I can clean up and get ready for the rest of the day. At approximately 1:15 pm, someone entered my door. He had some papers and asked if I was the owner. I said no, but I was a manager. He gave me papers and said "This is from your landlord. You're being served" This man was a clerk from the court. I looked at the papers and it was a 3 day eviction notice. I sank into my desk, closed the blinds to my office window, locked my office door, and sat there and cried for about 15 minutes. I realized that it was 1:45 and I had a lesson at 2:30. So, I got up, went to the bathroom, washed my face and then called the DM. He was already on the plane so his phone was off. So, I called the next person to let him know what just transpired. He said to start calling the landlord. Let her know everyone was in China and that they would take care of it when they got back. My assistants came in, so I had them run the 2:30 private class for me. Meanwhile, I was trying to find out from the landlord what was wrong. She told me the rent checks for the last couple months had bounced and we were still 3 months behind in the rent because of the previous instructor...so that makes it 5 months behind in the rent? Something like that.

Anyway, I got in touch with the assistant DM. He was in the car, on the way to the airport, with another DM that knew me personally. It was then and there, I was accused of something horrible. I was accused by both of them of signing the check for the rent over to myself. THAT NEVER EVEN HAPPENED! I NEVER DID THAT! I LOVED THAT SCHOOL! I WOULD NEVER HAVE DONE ANYTHING TO EVER MAKE THE SCHOOL GO BROKE OR BE EVICTED! Now, by this time, it's about 4:00 pm. I had a ninja night slumber party. Do you think I wanted to be there knowing what was about to transpire? I didn't. I wanted to go home, but I didn't. I made that the best ninja night those kids would have had...it was going to be their last one. I stayed in that dojo with the kids and my assistants. I got a call from my DM and he said that he thought the rents had been taken care of. I said they weren't. There was something wrong with the checks. The landlord deposited it and she said the checks bounced. So, the landlord said we had 3 days to clean out everything. I took all my stuff...that I had put in there and took it home the next day. I was ACCUSED OF STEALING MY OWN EQUIPMENT THAT I'VE HAD SINCE I WAS 14 YEARS OLD! It was sad, really. I put all that hard work in to that place. I went in on the weekend and painted it. I was saving up to buy the dojo new carpet.

In the end, someone came thru to help the dojo, but at that time, it was too late. I was done. I didn't want to be a chief instructor anymore. I wanted to go back to school. That's what I did. Someone else took over the school for 3 months, and when he only had 5 students there, he quit. The school was evicted after 3 months.

When it's all said and done, I was paid back every cent that was owed to me because I was right. I didn't steal anything that wasn't mine...the weapons, my desk, my vaccum cleaner, my computer, my shelves, my videos, my kicking shields, my punching targets, my blockers...my things. Notice a theme here? I left that dojo with what was in there when I came to it the first night. 4 kick shields, 2 focus mits, a really heavy hanging bag and the broken desk and chair. That's what I started with and that's what I left it with. The only thing I didn't do was leave 70 - 100 holes in the wall. That wouldn't have been nice.

That's a very depressing story, but at least it only happened to you once.

[xcakid]

Dang. Compared to that, I had a pretty OK time at USSD. :eek:

[SenseiShellie]

That's a very depressing story, but at least it only happened to you once.

Yup. Only once. Never ever again. You know what though, I learned from it. Never accept a position for a job that you totally love unless the situation is right. The situation was never right with that school. There were 15 instructors in that studio before me. The school was only around for 10 years. That's not a good average. Oh yeah, and the 3 months the last instructor was there is exactly enough time for eviction proceedings to occur, which is more than likely what happened. I never accused anyone of stealing. I just said it wasn't me and if someone was stealing from the school it was the person I was giving deposits to.

[SenseiShellie]

Dang. Compared to that, I had a pretty OK time at USSD. :eek:

I guess so! I was having a good time up until that school.

[xcakid]

The thing that made me quit was the push to promote people before it was time. That just waters down the systems. Also having 1st degrees teaching as Chief Instructor is mind boggling to me too. Specially if they had just tested a few months before and had only been in the art 2-3yrs or so. In traditional Shaolin Kwoons, you can't teach till you are a 3rd. Most CMA schools require a certain amount of hours teaching under supervision before they even allow you to do it by yourself. Typically this time frame is between blue and 2nd black (roughly 5yrs). That may be a hypocritical view since I was teaching at 1st Degree. However, I have been a black in TKD(4yrs) beforehand, as well and 3yrs. with the Ralph Castro system and 3yrs of Sil Lum 5animal. I know of instructors that ran a school with 2.5yrs in USSD.

Also the push to sell black belt programs which was ridiculous to me. If someone likes the art and the way you teach they will stay till black belt.

That whole, we don't go to other tournaments aside from USSD, mentatility was bogus too. They claimed the sparring is different. BS. USSD point spars, so does open tournaments. USSD does med to hard contact, so does many CMA comps. as well as SanShou tournaments. If USSD claims to be of Shaolin/CMA descent, how come they don't partake in any of the KF tournament or SanShou matches. As as instructor I had to do this on the dn low.

After you delve into it, there are just a lot of misdirections. Mainly in business practices and a few in the art itself. The biggest one being, Villari dropping off the lineage charts. There is reason for that I guess. ;)

[SenseiShellie]

The thing that made me quit was the push to promote people before it was time. That just waters down the systems. Also having 1st degrees teaching as Chief Instructor is mind boggling to me too. Specially if they had just tested a few months before and had only been in the art 2-3yrs or so. In traditional Shaolin Kwoons, you can't teach till you are a 3rd. Most CMA schools require a certain amount of hours teaching under supervision before they even allow you to do it by yourself. Typically this time frame is between blue and 2nd black (roughly 5yrs). That may be a hypocritical view since I was teaching at 1st Degree. However, I have been a black in TKD(4yrs) beforehand, as well and 3yrs. with the Ralph Castro system and 3yrs of Sil Lum 5animal. I know of instructors that ran a school with 2.5yrs in USSD.

Also the push to sell black belt programs which was ridiculous to me. If someone likes the art and the way you teach they will stay till black belt.

That whole, we don't go to other tournaments aside from USSD, mentatility was bogus too. They claimed the sparring is different. BS. USSD point spars, so does open tournaments. USSD does med to hard contact, so does many CMA comps. as well as SanShou tournaments. If USSD claims to be of Shaolin/CMA descent, how come they don't partake in any of the KF tournament or SanShou matches. As as instructor I had to do this on the dn low.

After you delve into it, there are just a lot of misdirections. Mainly in business practices and a few in the art itself. The biggest one being, Villari dropping off the lineage charts. There is reason for that I guess. ;)

I agree with you 100%. When I was an assistant at a school for USSD, I was pushed to sell a BB programs. I hated it, but I tried and succeeded a few times. From a business standpoint, I would rather have the montly revenue coming in than having a big chunk of change all at once.

I agree with the tournament thing as well. I went to an open tournament when I was with FV...you know what? It wasn't any different than the tournaments I went to for FV and USSD. I hated having to DL it, but it is the reality of the situation.

The art itself is good KEMPO. I have stated it many times. However, I believe it's like going to college. You find the subject you like and then move on with it. I like BJJ, Muay Thai, Wrestling (Greco-Roman), Kung Fu and Chen style Taiji. I have Kempo to thank for me finding the things that I like. Now, I'm in the Grad School phase of my training...I'm going to stick with the other arts seperately for a long time. I like what I do now better than what I did then.

[NJM]

That whole, we don't go to other tournaments aside from USSD, mentatility was bogus too. They claimed the sparring is different. BS. USSD point spars, so does open tournaments. USSD does med to hard contact, so does many CMA comps. as well as SanShou tournaments. If USSD claims to be of Shaolin/CMA descent, how come they don't partake in any of the KF tournament or SanShou matches. As as instructor I had to do this on the dn low.

There is no reason why this school can't go to a general martial arts tourney. My instructor says, if you want to go, be my guest! Just make sure you do your best. One of our guys, a 3 year member, went to his first tourney and got 1st place in 2 events.


In traditional Shaolin Kwoons, you can't teach till you are a 3rd.

In traditional Shaolin Kwoons, there are no degrees/belts. :P

[xcakid]

In traditional Shaolin Kwoons, there are no degrees/belts. :P

Doh. Guess you got a point there.

Although when I was in Ying Jow Pai. It was pretty traditional, but we did have a belting system. But in Sil Lum we did not.

My current school does have a belting system.

[SenseiShellie]

There is no reason why this school can't go to a general martial arts tourney. My instructor says, if you want to go, be my guest! Just make sure you do your best. One of our guys, a 3 year member, went to his first tourney and got 1st place in 2 events.




That's the key...just do your best. I took 8th out of 32 in weapons when I went to an open tournament. It was fun and I had a blast. I don't see why a student can't go to them. When my students asked me, I told them to go ahead. I had no problem with it.

[SenseiShellie]

Ok...All I'm going to say is go look at this website.

http://www.villarievents.com/events

[sun dragon]

Ok...All I'm going to say is go look at this website.

http://www.villarievents.com/events

WOW Villaris has four 9th degree's.
How many does mattera have?

[sun dragon]

That sucks SenseiShellie!

Another reason why United Studios of rip you off should be shut down.

[wyatt1970]

how many students where at that school when you took over,, how many did you sign up while you where there? how many where there when you left?

[SenseiShellie]

how many students where at that school when you took over,, how many did you sign up while you where there? how many where there when you left?

Let's see...there was a whopping total of 5 students when I got there...3 were paying and two were prepaid. Mind you, only one of those had a standardized rate at that time. In the 6 months I was there, I took the school up to 45 students (I had 4 students on 4 privates a week and 2 students on double private lessons). The school definately made it's overhead with just that number. I only lost one student in that whole time I was there, so 44 were left when I left. Students found out I was gone and slowly trickled out to leave with 5 prepaid students in the dojo. Yeah, ironically enough, my students liked me and liked how I taught.

There was definately opportunity to get more due to the fact that Seal Beach's biggest competition closed its doors (it was a former Bill Mailman school) and people could have come in...but alas, that particular dojo had a bad reputation as it was...you know, former instructor that molested kids in there, one instructor slept with the moms, and oh yeah...one instructor was dealing drugs to some of the students. That dojo had some really good chi in there!

[sun dragon]

Let's see...there was a whopping total of 5 students when I got there...3 were paying and two were prepaid. Mind you, only one of those had a standardized rate at that time. In the 6 months I was there, I took the school up to 45 students (I had 4 students on 4 privates a week and 2 students on double private lessons). The school definately made it's overhead with just that number. I only lost one student in that whole time I was there, so 44 were left when I left. Students found out I was gone and slowly trickled out to leave with 5 prepaid students in the dojo. Yeah, ironically enough, my students liked me and liked how I taught.

There was definately opportunity to get more due to the fact that Seal Beach's biggest competition closed its doors (it was a former Bill Mailman school) and people could have come in...but alas, that particular dojo had a bad reputation as it was...you know, former instructor that molested kids in there, one instructor slept with the moms, and oh yeah...one instructor was dealing drugs to some of the students. That dojo had some really good chi in there!

40 students in 6 months is a pretty good job. Obviously you didn't suck at your job.

Not surprised about the other instructors before you. USSD needs to do back ground checks on all there instructors.
But that would more then likely mean none of the masters could teach.:eek:

[NJM]

I recently came across the wikipedia article for Shaolin Kempo Karate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin_Kempo_Karate

It is an abomination, total biased promotion of the school with very little fact. I was the one who proposed deletion on this article.

[sun dragon]

I recently came across the wikipedia article for Shaolin Kempo Karate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin_Kempo_Karate

It is an abomination, total biased promotion of the school with very little fact. I was the one who proposed deletion on this article.

I read it before and some ussd student put mattera as the creator of shaolin kempo without any mention of GM Fred Villari. It goes to show how far ussd will go to lie about where they came from their style and linage.

[sun dragon]

Let's see...there was a whopping total of 5 students when I got there...3 were paying and two were prepaid. Mind you, only one of those had a standardized rate at that time. In the 6 months I was there, I took the school up to 45 students (I had 4 students on 4 privates a week and 2 students on double private lessons). The school definately made it's overhead with just that number. I only lost one student in that whole time I was there, so 44 were left when I left. Students found out I was gone and slowly trickled out to leave with 5 prepaid students in the dojo. Yeah, ironically enough, my students liked me and liked how I taught.

There was definately opportunity to get more due to the fact that Seal Beach's biggest competition closed its doors (it was a former Bill Mailman school) and people could have come in...but alas, that particular dojo had a bad reputation as it was...you know, former instructor that molested kids in there, one instructor slept with the moms, and oh yeah...one instructor was dealing drugs to some of the students. That dojo had some really good chi in there!

Why did Bill Mailmans school close down? Did mattera aka fat charlee harass him tell he closed?

[wyatt1970]

his school didn't close down, he moved to clovis and sold the school on bellflower and the other two to the students that he was in business with, i used to work out with master mailman and i can't remember the students names but they where a father and two brothers. now to put to rest the mattera/villari arguement, gm mattera doesn't deny it, he is never asked about it and i don't think he should be what happended between them two is their business and theirs alone, just get off that deal it happend almost 20 years ago, when most of you where just kids or if you where even born at that time. do people ask you why you broke up with someone so long ago? i doubt it

[SenseiShellie]

Why did Bill Mailmans school close down? Did mattera aka fat charlee harass him tell he closed?

No...actually, a brother and sister owned that school. Bill Mailman sold it to them and honestly, their lease ran out and decided not to renew it. I know of other schools that have been harassed though, but that's in both FVSSD and USSD.

[wyatt1970]

i was there in the early 90's so at that time it was the brothers and father, but of course things change, and i was wrong his school is in grover beach not clovis, here is his link


http://www.umaassociation.com/contact.html

[SenseiShellie]

i was there in the early 90's so at that time it was the brothers and father, but of course things change, and i was wrong his school is in grover beach not clovis, here is his link


http://www.umaassociation.com/contact.html

Not the Grover Beach School...the one in Seal Beach. Josh and Adria ran it.

[wyatt1970]

ok i meant the one in long beach, on bellflower blvd. that is the one that master mailman was chief instructor when i was there

[SenseiShellie]

ok i meant the one in long beach, on bellflower blvd. that is the one that master mailman was chief instructor when i was there

That one still exists. The Seal Beach people were going to open up another one on bellflower. They barely taught Shaolin Kempo as it stood. They taught some system in there called UMA...don't know what it stood for though.

[sun dragon]

his school didn't close down, he moved to clovis and sold the school on bellflower and the other two to the students that he was in business with, i used to work out with master mailman and i can't remember the students names but they where a father and two brothers. now to put to rest the mattera/villari arguement, gm mattera doesn't deny it, he is never asked about it and i don't think he should be what happended between them two is their business and theirs alone, just get off that deal it happend almost 20 years ago, when most of you where just kids or if you where even born at that time. do people ask you why you broke up with someone so long ago? i doubt it

Yes it is my business if I am going to do business with ussd and they have a shaddy past I have a right to know. Just like registered sex offenders I have a right to know about there past business deals. I heard mattera rip off Villari a lot of money when he paid him to move out to California to open Villari dojos and he in turned stabbed Villari in the back took money for Villari schools and opened his own.

[wyatt1970]

well sun dragon you heard wrong wron wrong, yes you are right you do have the right to know if there is a child molester in your midsts, but come on a legal battle from 20 years ago, that rediculous, just go and enjoy yourself and work out, get into shape or what ever someone goes to a martial arts school for, everyone has different reasons,school politics shouldn't be in the school it is a distraction. and if you must know from gm matttera was asked to come to california and open the schools and and he would get half and that didn't happen,

[SenseiShellie]

well sun dragon you heard wrong wron wrong, yes you are right you do have the right to know if there is a child molester in your midsts, but come on a legal battle from 20 years ago, that rediculous, just go and enjoy yourself and work out, get into shape or what ever someone goes to a martial arts school for, everyone has different reasons,school politics shouldn't be in the school it is a distraction. and if you must know from gm matttera was asked to come to california and open the schools and and he would get half and that didn't happen,

I also heard from a very reliable source that those schools were supposed to be opened under the FVSSD name...and that didn't happen. However, if you talk to someone from FVSSD, it's a whole different story. It's all about he said/he said. I've actually had a background check done on both company heads, after I left, and let me say, I would not want to work for either one. You're better off opening up a mom and pop karate shop.

[sun dragon]

well sun dragon you heard wrong wron wrong, yes you are right you do have the right to know if there is a child molester in your midsts, but come on a legal battle from 20 years ago, that rediculous, just go and enjoy yourself and work out, get into shape or what ever someone goes to a martial arts school for, everyone has different reasons,school politics shouldn't be in the school it is a distraction. and if you must know from gm matttera was asked to come to california and open the schools and and he would get half and that didn't happen,

Yeah if they rip someone off 20 years ago I have a right to know. I have heard of ussd harrasing breakoff schools and thats not cool:mad: So that alone should be reason enough not to do business or more or less train with them. Why is a Fred Villari school $50,000 for a 100% own school and matteras $225,000 for a 66% owned buy ussd?
Do you run a school for them?

[wyatt1970]

senseishelli:


it was opened under fvssd and had that name for several years i started in anaheim un f.v.s.s.d. and even got my first under that banner it didn't change to ussd till sometime later, i don't remember when because i was oversea in the marines. so your sources are wrong,

[SenseiShellie]

senseishelli:


it was opened under fvssd and had that name for several years i started in anaheim un f.v.s.s.d. and even got my first under that banner it didn't change to ussd till sometime later, i don't remember when because i was oversea in the marines. so your sources are wrong,

Actually, my source is a 9th degree. I would take his word over yours...seeing as he originally started in 1972 in MASS.

[wyatt1970]

sun dragon:

well a good friend of mine who i just talked to on the phone owns a ussd school he paid 60,000 for 25% ownership in a school, the other 75% is owned by ussd, the d.m. and another owner who is in partnership with my friend so ussd only get 25%, and he makes a few thousand a month and doesn't do anything with the school except own it the same with the other owners, and ussd handles all the advertisement and the name rights, now he said you can own your own school but if you own it outright you are responsible for everything, and his school is right by universal studios in california so you know that is a pretty decent area, now as far as f.v.s.s.d i wouldn't know since i left them during the split but i would assume that the cheaper price is because there isn't a demand for ownership with him but again i wouldn't know, but back to ussd to make a few thousand a month as an owner of 1 school after only a couple of years is not a bad deal,, did you know that it cost a million dollars to open a mcdonalds? 500k for the name and 500k for the building and contents and on average it takes more than 5 years to break even, so to make money it costs money

[sun dragon]

wyatt1970 how come you wont answer my question? ussd is not a good place if you want own your dojo IMHO.

[wyatt1970]

well seeing how you are full of b.s. from what you wrote on your personal messge to me i don't believe what you say,, i will go to storage and get my diplomas and see if i can get and image og my black belt that will show it was f.v.s.s.d and was issued in california, as well as my lower belt diplomas, i can still remember the patches, kinda like they have now witht eh big "v" and the dragon, but it was a yellow fist surrounded with red and black and the works go around the fist in yellow

[SenseiShellie]

sun dragon:

well a good friend of mine who i just talked to on the phone owns a ussd school he paid 60,000 for 25% ownership in a school, the other 75% is owned by ussd, the d.m. and another owner who is in partnership with my friend so ussd only get 25%, and he makes a few thousand a month and doesn't do anything with the school except own it the same with the other owners, and ussd handles all the advertisement and the name rights, now he said you can own your own school but if you own it outright you are responsible for everything, and his school is right by universal studios in california so you know that is a pretty decent area, now as far as f.v.s.s.d i wouldn't know since i left them during the split but i would assume that the cheaper price is because there isn't a demand for ownership with him but again i wouldn't know, but back to ussd to make a few thousand a month as an owner of 1 school after only a couple of years is not a bad deal,, did you know that it cost a million dollars to open a mcdonalds? 500k for the name and 500k for the building and contents and on average it takes more than 5 years to break even, so to make money it costs money

Isn't that Studio City? Doesn't Cynthia Rothrock own that school?

[wyatt1970]

look above sun dragon, and what is imho?

[wyatt1970]

yes she owns part of that school, my friend is the other owner, he is a friend of hers and my friend from the mid 80's when we where both in the san clemente school

[SenseiShellie]

well seeing how you are full of b.s. from what you wrote on your personal messge to me i don't believe what you say,, i will go to storage and get my diplomas and see if i can get and image og my black belt that will show it was f.v.s.s.d and was issued in california, as well as my lower belt diplomas, i can still remember the patches, kinda like they have now witht eh big "v" and the dragon, but it was a yellow fist surrounded with red and black and the works go around the fist in yellow

The name changed in 1987, and Mr. Mattera did that himself. That's when the trouble started. It was before the lawsuits started. Armen was running Yorba Linda at that point. That's when they started opening up FVSSD schools across the street from USSD. Someone wasn't getting his percentage of the franchise fees for those schools. And seeing as you won't even write a personal message back, I can't believe you either. I have nothing to hide...why do you?

[sun dragon]

sun dragon:

well a good friend of mine who i just talked to on the phone owns a ussd school he paid 60,000 for 25% ownership in a school, the other 75% is owned by ussd, the d.m. and another owner who is in partnership with my friend so ussd only get 25%, and he makes a few thousand a month and doesn't do anything with the school except own it the same with the other owners, and ussd handles all the advertisement and the name rights, now he said you can own your own school but if you own it outright you are responsible for everything, and his school is right by universal studios in california so you know that is a pretty decent area, now as far as f.v.s.s.d i wouldn't know since i left them during the split but i would assume that the cheaper price is because there isn't a demand for ownership with him but again i wouldn't know, but back to ussd to make a few thousand a month as an owner of 1 school after only a couple of years is not a bad deal,, did you know that it cost a million dollars to open a mcdonalds? 500k for the name and 500k for the building and contents and on average it takes more than 5 years to break even, so to make money it costs money

Thats not the deal they give everyone else. Thats cynthia rothrock school.A school is normally $225,000 thats not a good deal. And she is a friend of matteras so she probably got a deal, still think it sucks for 60,000 though.
On the east coast matteras and damascos schools are down to 8 schools last time I checked and they lost a bunch in 2000 and 2001probably because mattera tried rasing rates and the 66% dojo thing. Villari still has the most dojos on the east coast and more higher ranked masters then mattera so he will probably never get anywhere past 20 schools there.

[sun dragon]

look above sun dragon, and what is imho?

In my honest opinion

[wyatt1970]

ok i have seen that before but never knew what it meant, thank you for that

[sun dragon]

Actually, my source is a 9th degree. I would take his word over yours...seeing as he originally started in 1972 in MASS.
Mattera started in 71 so they must have trained together.

[sun dragon]

ok i have seen that before but never knew what it meant, thank you for that
No problem.

[SenseiShellie]

Mattera started in 71 so they must have trained together.

At some point. They were both at Art Singer's studio...

[sun dragon]

At some point. They were both at Art Singer's studio...

No kidding. Where Master singer now?

[wyatt1970]

i know for a fact that she didn't get a deal, that is the way they are done know, two choices, full ownership or part of the LLC. 60,000 and get a few thousand a month return after only a couple of years? that sounds like a pretty good deal, he does nothing nothing nothing to do with the school except own it and he gets money each month,

[wyatt1970]

sinseishellie,

i did answer your personal message, go look i sent you one right after you sent me one, and the school didn't change names in 1987 it was after 1988 because i got my black belt in december of 88 and it was still f.v.s.s.d.

[SenseiShellie]

i know for a fact that she didn't get a deal, that is the way they are done know, two choices, full ownership or part of the LLC. 60,000 and get a few thousand a month return after only a couple of years? that sounds like a pretty good deal, he does nothing nothing nothing to do with the school except own it and he gets money each month,

There is no full ownership! Who's BSING now? I still have a copy of the business prospectus...it's only up to 50%. I will find it and scan a copy in...

[SenseiShellie]

sinseishellie,

i did answer your personal message, go look i sent you one right after you sent me one, and the school didn't change names in 1987 it was after 1988 because i got my black belt in december of 88 and it was still f.v.s.s.d.

Um, no you didn't send me any private messages. Schools starting changing names in 1987. I know because that's when the original Beverly Hills School changed from FVSSD to USSD...right after Jason Hamilton, my first instructor, went to Florida to be with FV.

[sun dragon]

i know for a fact that she didn't get a deal, that is the way they are done know, two choices, full ownership or part of the LLC. 60,000 and get a few thousand a month return after only a couple of years? that sounds like a pretty good deal, he does nothing nothing nothing to do with the school except own it and he gets money each month,

I Dont buy it. I know this not the deal they have now. I don't think your lying to me I think your friend is miss leading you. When l left them they said that all ussd schools in a couple of years will 100% company own so the company can grow.

[SenseiShellie]

No kidding. Where Master singer now?

That's a really good question...I have no clue.

[wyatt1970]

that is the way the schools are now, and no he isn't missleading me, i have known him for over 20 years and one thing for good or bad is he is brutally honest,

[SenseiShellie]

that is the way the schools are now, and no he isn't missleading me, i have known him for over 20 years and one thing for good or bad is he is brutally honest,

I will find the business prospectus for you from 2003...that's when the schools officially changed.

[wyatt1970]

i don't know what happend to the private email but i just email you again, and retyped it

[SenseiShellie]

i don't know what happend to the private email but i just email you again, and retyped it

Did you send it e-mail or private message on here?

[SenseiShellie]

I'm not getting anything on here...

[SenseiShellie]

ok...sent 2 back to you. you can only have 1000 characters on the pm's....

[SenseiShellie]

Yes you did...and I sent you one back.

[xcakid]

just sent you one


ok...sent 2 back to you. you can only have 1000 characters on the pm's....


ok i sent you one back, hopefully i figured this out finally


Yes you did...and I sent you one back.

OH GET A ROOM YOU TWO!!! ;)

[SenseiShellie]

OH GET A ROOM YOU TWO!!! ;)

LOL! he was having problems with sending PMs...

[sk girl]

i know for a fact that she didn't get a deal, that is the way they are done know, two choices, full ownership or part of the LLC. 60,000 and get a few thousand a month return after only a couple of years? that sounds like a pretty good deal, he does nothing nothing nothing to do with the school except own it and he gets money each month,

There is no full ownership with USSD! They are all about the money nothing else.
CLOSE THEM DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad ::mad:

[wyatt1970]

oh really sk girl and how do you know this? where did you take classes at or what school did you teach at and how long where you there? where you the chief instrutor or the owner?

[sk girl]

oh really sk girl and how do you know this? where did you take classes at or what school did you teach at and how long where you there? where you the chief instrutor or the owner?

I worked for ussd and ran one of their schools for them THATS HOW I KNOW!
You can lie all you want ussd cheerleader.

[NJM]

I worked for ussd and ran one of their schools for them THATS HOW I KNOW!
You can lie all you want ussd cheerleader.

I wish all USSD schools were constructed like the tower from Game of Death. That way, we could go in groups and defeat the bosses and cronies at each level.

[SenseiShellie]

I wish all USSD schools were constructed like the tower from Game of Death. That way, we could go in groups and defeat the bosses and cronies at each level.


lol...that sounds fun!

[sun dragon]

I wish all USSD schools were constructed like the tower from Game of Death. That way, we could go in groups and defeat the bosses and cronies at each level.

It would only take one group.

[SenseiShellie]

It would only take one group.

I say two or three levels...

[sun dragon]

Hey where did wyatt1970 the ussd pusher go?:confused:

[SenseiShellie]

Who knows...

[sk girl]

Hey wyatt,
Whats your real name? What school did you run? And where did you run away too now?

[sun dragon]

Hey wyatt,
Whats your real name? What school did you run? And where did you run away too now?

IMOP All ussd instructors run away and hide after they are exposed for fraudulent art they teach.

[Rogue Heretic]

IMOP All ussd instructors run away and hide after they are exposed for fraudulent art they teach.

Agreed with you on that one...

[sun dragon]

Agreed with you on that one...


True. Hey Master Jack where did you go? Whats wrong truth too painful?

[sun dragon]

Hey Master Turner did you send Ryan on here to do your bidding?

[sk girl]

True. Hey Master Jack where did you go? Whats wrong truth too painful?

He doesn't like talking to people who know the truth about ussd it scares them!:)

[sk girl]

Hey Master Turner did you send Ryan on here to do your bidding?

Yeah they did. Cant do their own dirty work, look at what happened to Richard Black in Vegas when he took 4 instructors and beat up another kempo break off school. He now has a police record. So it makes sense to send some 20 year old punk to do their dirty work for them.

[rlnidan716]

did you guys go to a different forum cause i didnt run away. and im not 20 im 18. why did you switch to a different one.

[rlnidan716]

you actually think im someone else. my name is rick. but thats cool i guess sense you too dumb to understand that there might be other people out in this world with the intials R and L.

hey SK your real tough calling someone a punk over the internet. every time i see ryan he has always been respectful to me and other around him. so i think you might have a different out look on ryan

[Rogue Heretic]

did you guys go to a different forum cause i didnt run away. and im not 20 im 18. why did you switch to a different one.

No. same forum...just lots of threads.

[sk girl]

you actually think im someone else. my name is rick. but thats cool i guess sense you too dumb to understand that there might be other people out in this world with the intials R and L.

hey SK your real tough calling someone a punk over the internet. every time i see ryan he has always been respectful to me and other around him. so i think you might have a different out look on ryan



Ussd uses mafia style tactics so I wont put my name down.

You guys all dodge questions so you should not change the subject all the time.

Why is GM Fred Villari not in your lineage?

Where did Charles Mattera get his 9th degree?

How many schools has ussd harassed?:confused::confused:

You are really sharing the magic of the martials arts with people when you guys go and beat up someone.

Richard Black is now a convicted felon for beating up that guy in Vegas and HIS WIFE!!!!!
Should this guy even be allowed to teach children?

Teaching kids to be bully's is disgusting!!!

I don't think ussd should be allowed to run martial arts schools with their low morals.

I wonder how many other schools he and ussd has harassed?

[sun dragon]

He doesn't like talking to people who know the truth about ussd it scares them!:)

I know! Hiding the truth is worse.

[sun dragon]

Yeah they did. Cant do their own dirty work, look at what happened to Richard Black in Vegas when he took 4 instructors and beat up another kempo break off school. He now has a police record. So it makes sense to send some 20 year old punk to do their dirty work for them.


They talk about it in their Friday meetings too! Its funny how they all deny it now.

[sun dragon]

Ussd uses mafia style tactics so I wont put my name down.

You guys all dodge questions so you should not change the subject all the time.

Why is GM Fred Villari not in your lineage?

Where did Charles Mattera get his 9th degree?

How many schools has ussd harassed?:confused::confused:

You are really sharing the magic of the martials arts with people when you guys go and beat up someone.

Richard Black is now a convicted felon for beating up that guy in Vegas and HIS WIFE!!!!!
Should this guy even be allowed to teach children?

Teaching kids to be bully's is disgusting!!!

I don't think ussd should be allowed to run martial arts schools with their low morals.

I wonder how many other schools he and ussd has harassed?



Can anyone run background checks on the USSD masters?

[sk girl]

They talk about it in their Friday meetings too! Its funny how they all deny it now.



Yes they did!! :mad::mad: I was at thoses meetings.:eek:
Now the deny it and avoid the questions about it.

Why does ussd put people in the hospitail when their trying to better their lives and the community?:mad::mad:

[sun dragon]

Ussd uses mafia style tactics so I wont put my name down.

You guys all dodge questions so you should not change the subject all the time.

Why is GM Fred Villari not in your lineage?

Where did Charles Mattera get his 9th degree?

How many schools has ussd harassed?:confused::confused:

You are really sharing the magic of the martials arts with people when you guys go and beat up someone.

Richard Black is now a convicted felon for beating up that guy in Vegas and HIS WIFE!!!!!
Should this guy even be allowed to teach children?

Teaching kids to be bully's is disgusting!!!

I don't think ussd should be allowed to run martial arts schools with their low morals.

I wonder how many other schools he and ussd has harassed?




Hey Ryan answer these questions.

[sk girl]

Ussd uses mafia style tactics so I wont put my name down.

You guys all dodge questions so you should not change the subject all the time.

Why is GM Fred Villari not in your lineage?

Where did Charles Mattera get his 9th degree?

How many schools has ussd harassed?:confused::confused:

You are really sharing the magic of the martials arts with people when you guys go and beat up someone.

Richard Black is now a convicted felon for beating up that guy in Vegas and HIS WIFE!!!!!
Should this guy even be allowed to teach children?

Teaching kids to be bully's is disgusting!!!

I don't think ussd should be allowed to run martial arts schools with their low morals.

I wonder how many other schools he and ussd has harassed?







Hey Ryan answer the questions?


Are you scared of the truth?