Baguazhang and the trigrams...a fake link?

[Crimson Phoenix]

I have seen many practicionners of bagua devise about the trigrams and yi jing...but from various observations, I have seen two ways of thinking: some bagua players that claim the study of yijing and the hexagrams is useful, and some that say that the relationship between baguazhang and the hexagrams has been developped later by some shcolars who practiced bagua, but not necessarily to a high level, and therefore isn't useful at all...they then cite the names of famous bagua practicionners of the past who attained a very high level in the arts while being illiterate...
My own sifu, Wong Tun Ken, student of Jiang Rong Qiao agrees with the later statement...what about your instructor/sifu?
What about your personal opinion on that? How many of you do study the yijing in order to improve their baguazhang? Or do you just do it for the wonderful treaty that it is?
Phoenix

[count]

Does your teacher teach you the bagua chi kung that goes along with bagua training? If so, what direction/s do you face when you practice, and how many levels of each do you do?ü

[RAF]

For a long time, I followed Adam Hsu's cue's about the secondary nature of the Yi Jing to the actual practice and training of Bagua Zhang. For the beginner, I think he is right on target. My own teacher showed a few things here and there and also indicated some connnection through the Yi Jing to the actual training and health.

I have always been a bit skeptical regarding martial artists understanding the Yi Jing, give the historically illiteracy rate (>92%) and the complexity of understanding the Yi Jing (it has been a scholar's activity).

About a month ago I attended a workshop on the Yi Jing conducted by an academic scholar who has no ties to martial arts. He asserted that the Yi Jing was probably the most influential text in Chinese culture (he has done a number of translations). He pointed out that around 200 BC when one of the emperors buried all of his scholars alive and burnt most texts, the Yi Jing was not every touched, because of its divination importance. I also asked how could it have been accessible to a relatively illiterate population. Did it really serve any function in the everyday life of the ordinary Chinese person, martial artist included? His answer sort of set me back---literally everyone consulted the Yi Jing through the professional "fortune tellers". Illiterate or not, it was a part of the common man's life and the way they experienced the world and understood the world. He thought it was as relevant today as it was then and the current Government permits its reading and usage (banned about 10 years ago as superstitious, feudalism).

In my spare time, I am reading several versions of it, not necessarily for its direct relevance to bagua but because it permits an insight into the world view of the old Chinese culture (its unconscious even permeate communism). One warning, most of the translations have a Confucian bias, with a particular demeaning of the Yin principle and women in general (this was not a politically correct bias on his part as I tried to nail him with this assertion). He pointed out that their was only one Daoist translation that he was aware of and its available (can't remember the author). His suggestion was to get both and compare and read. I found Alfred Huang's translations particularly helpful and he also has a Daoist version of sorts. Now, I am not going to spend hours upon hours studying this at the expense of training but I do think it is worth exploring and mulling over

[TheBigToad]

The old masters being illiterate would have absolutely no bearing on them understanding the YiJing at all if they were taught to understand it. The trigrams and resulting hexagrams simply had meaning and where applied to one's current and past situations, there where no commonly written introduction as we see today in copies of the YiJing, of which Carl Jung can be thanked for that.
The Hexagrams where taught and learned in "near" oral fashion and how to divine and draw the symbol of each meaning and trigram was taught.
YiJing was a Daoist method of thinking.
Dong HiChuan should he have the first developed Baguazhang (which I doubt he did, since circle walking with postures and changes into other postures for health and spiritual practice existed in Daoist ritual and temples from at least a thousand years, dictated by study of the YiJing)Dong HiChuan was also said to have learned a Shaolin method of LoHan and since Shaolin is a Buddhist minded organization, Daoist thought and method might be slim to non existent and so might his understanding of YiJing, or maybe he felt that non of his students where ready for this, who knows...
What is clear is that YiJing IS NOT needed to become and good fighter, practice, practice, practice is what is needed. However..should you also use Bagua as a spiritual practice and for attaining deeper levels of meditative ability then understanding how YiJing applies to Bagua is then important. It would be like saying you are devote Christian without picking up and reading the bible ... the bible doesn't life the words of God for you, it simply gives you a good general overview of how to do it.
The YiJing simply gives an overview, suggested ideas and principles by which to practice from. The whole idea is to change and adapt to any situation, be it fighting or blowing your nose, its all about flowing in and out of situation in harmony and keeping yourself in balance, that interestingly enough sound a lot like what is done in Bagua...why the hell are people still arguing about this?? If it works for you then study it and apply it best you can, but keep in mind that only sweat and practice will increase skill. If you don't want to study it then don't, whatever....

The circle will always be, but you alone decides when it starts and where it ends.

[razakdigital]

Kevin,

Good reply - I think sometimes we all get caught up in a lot of theories. I feel in Pa Kua Chang people get stuck on the I-Ching as a reference for fighting when you really don't need it (in my opinion).

Now like Kevin said if you want to use it in for mediative practices - I can OVERstand that....

I think that people just want to cling on theories of pa kua and they should just get to the nitty gritty of it and just...

practice...

[Crimson Phoenix]

It makes me think of someone who said (I think it was Hsu again) "you can't think about the five elements and their relations when you fight" regarding Xingyi..
Count, yes he does teach it...but he doesn't advocate a particular direction to practice and he is not too heavy also on the number of reps, it's at our discretion as long as we equilibrate...I'm sure there is a way of blending the bagua theory with the practice of bagua qigong but with my limited experience I don't see what will make the exercise better or not to you...he sees these exercises more as a way of learning the correct body postures and feeling the internal moves rather than something to cultivate qi (he doesn't seem to really like qi anyway...or maybe he will save it for later)...
I can feel he really prefers when we walk for hours with all the joints extended, relaxed, limbs twisting and focusing on the work of intention...
He doesn't really impose us to do something: we arrive, we train what we want, he watches...sometimes he tells you one correction and if you don't perform it well the next time you won't get another one unless you integrate...most of the time he passes and watches with a word (which usually means "not too bad for me to comment" hehehehehe)
I'm not experienced, I just started bagua 6 months ago...but I have been into external chinese arts for 4 years and I really don't see how all these theories would make me a better fighter...I agree they are part of the cultivation that martial arts can bring though, and myself I'm a big fan of these theories...but not with combat-effectiveness in focus. Plus there is the heavy illiteracy argument...you can be illiterate and attain an incredible martial art level like many have done in China in the past...
But then again, I cannot talk for I'm a beginner and many things are above me, so I wanted to know what the more experienced practicionners here thought about that...

Phoenix

[Braden]

I think you guys are being a little too simplistic about it.

It's not like someone would go "Hmm... I want to be a good fighter. Should I spend the next couple hours training or reading a book? Yeah, I'll read a book!" At least, I HOPE that's not how it is. My point is, it's not going to be either or. You can decide to try to get something out of the I Ching regardless of how much (or how little) you're training.

Personally, I don't think it's even the slighest bit mandatory, but on the other hand, I think you _can_ get something out of it. Furthermore, the I Ching and trigram theory in general is very rich. Regardless of your skill level, you should be able to find something there.

In my own practice, I have definitely gained from pondering these things. Actually, I recently had an insight to what the classics are:

"The classics are not the secrets. Doing them is not what grants you skill. But rather, _trying_ to do them in the context of good training methods will result in you learning what you have to learn."

It's part of the "the true tao cannot be spoken of" thing. They're not the tao, they're like a conceptual tool that will help you go "Aha!" I think the trigrams can be used similarly.

In my lineage, we have some basic exercises where you execute each of the 8 hand formations from a basic stance; and then there is a "follow-up" attack from each. We train them to escape being grabbed, and then turn the escape to an attack; but really they're for learning about each of the 8 energies.

Overtly, the heaven palm and the earth palm are almost identical. For a long time, I practiced them with the same energy. One day when I was reading comments related to the I Ching on the characteristics of earth energy, I realized how this could relate to my practice. There is a small physical movement that differentiates the earth and heaven movements in this exercise. Using the allegory presented in the I Ching discussions (in the context of actually training, of course), I finally began to understand what I should be aiming for with that movement. Not that I can do it all that well yet, but at least I can understand that there is a world of difference between the two energies.

Would I have ever understood that if I was just going through the martial movements? Maybe. I have a good teacher, and he does his best to explain and demonstrate. But alot of learning in the internal arts is about finding out things for yourself. And it always helps to have a wide scope of allegorical descriptions, because you never know which one will "work" for you.

[Scott Nordeng]

Without the Praying Mantis there would be no Praying Mantis gung fu. Without Monkeys there would be no Monkey gung fu.(i could go on and on).
The way that these animals or inscets lived and survived was the inspiration to try an understand the nature and embody the spirit of these animals. These animals represent a part of nature The five elements represent part a nature. These are living or tangable parts of nature.
Five element theory, yin and yang the I ching represent the laws of nature. [Combine five element theory and animal fighting forms with yin and yang (internal training)you might end up with something like Xing Yi,] The acient masters Organized Ba Gua Based on the I Ching. They chose 8 animals (real or mythical) to represent the 8 trigrams they walked an 8 step circle. They created 64 varations(palms) to represent the 64 hex grams. There are 3 levels to train upper,middle,lower based on the 3 lines in each 3 line trigram . They probably ****ed 8 times a day and shook their dicks 3 times after each ****s(i could go on). The acient taoist could physicaly practice or manifest the I Ching,stay healthy,kick ass,heal others and gain enlightenment from Ba Gua and other taoist alchemy. Practicing Ba Gua without the I ching is like doing monkey Gung Fu inspired from a dead monkey or looking at dead praying mantis to figure out how it killed its prey. The acient masters are dead but the I ching our grand masters and masters are are still alive. We are standing on the shoulders of giants.This is the TAO

twdsn

[This message was edited by Rhino on 05-10-01 at 02:03 AM.]

[Crimson Phoenix]

Rhino and Braden, thanks fo the very good, personal insights...I intimately agree with you, but I objectively see many crude facts that could back up the hypothesis of the "scholar invention"...First of all, Dong never referred to baguazhang in the beginning, its people after him who thought the name was adequate...OK, he supposedly learnt it from Taoists so maybe his practice was heavily influenced by the Yijing without him knowing about it, and later some scholars found the link back...but also I believe yijing is a representation (and what an awesome one) of nature's laws...so it could apply to everything in theory, and every martial style...yet bagua are mostly evocated in baguazhang (duh! heheheh), and some style never mention them...furthermore, there has been many animals associated to the trigrams, with 2 or 3 different animals for a single one sometimes...so where is the truth? I mean, what can objectively decide wether the rooster fits more a certain trigram than the monkey or anything?
Knowing and understanding the yijing in depth will never make you a baguazhang expert (I mean, that's what I suppose), while training andd training again will eventually...and maybe the yijing can speed up the process or as somebody mentionned it make you realize certain things that would have took you quite a longer time to realize on your own...
Maybe the truth is in the middle (as often): maybe the trigrams are representative of certain concepts, and it is these concepts that can make you reach mastery in the arts...if you stick too litterally to the trigrams, you won't see they hide the concepts...on the other hand, if you don't study them, maybe the concept will remain hidden until one day you painfuly realize or you stumble on them by chance...
I think this discussion is awesome, thank you all for your clever opinions (don't hesitate to give more!)...
hopefully, Ralek doesn't hang in the internal arts forum too much heheheheheh

[razakdigital]

Rhino,

This is just a question please take no offense -

"Practicing Ba Gua without the I ching is like doing monkey Gung Fu inspired from a dead monkey or looking at dead praying mantis to figure out how it killed its prey. " - Rhino

Is it really possible to practice Pa Kua Chang without knowing one iota of the I-Ching? Do you really need to know the I-Ching? Why can't we learn Pa Kua Chang with out learning I-Ching? Do we as Pa Kua Chang fighters get to caught on mysteries? I'm mean do we cyke ourselves out to believe that mystic books can help us? I'm learning Praying Mantis from a great teacher but I've never gone to the forest to study a praying mantis. I do my form repetitiously, watch videos and spar with it. Does that mean I don't know Praying mantis? In NYC, I've met good ba gua fighters (and I do mean fighters not people who talk the talk but don't walk the walk. I mean people that have excellent forms also) and they don't get into I-Ching at all. Their main issue is practice and more practice. Proper postures, alignment, and more practice. Some people don't even get into Chi energy as much as they believe in "intent".

Please do not think I'm bashing I-Ching information. I believe in history and good information. I like just to deal what is practical for me. But let finalize in saying if studying the I-Ching is going to improve your skills...it’s all good...if not studying the I-Ching is going to improve your skillz...then its all good also

"One ought not learn by the mere execution of forms, but instead one can progress best if one understands what about body mechanics the form is designed to train. Armed with this knowledge, one's forms practice becomes charged with intention, and this leads to results: one's actually being able to apply the power and reap the health benefits for which the internal martial art is reknowned."


"One ought not learn by the mere execution of forms, but instead one can progress best if one understands what about body mechanics the form is designed to train. Armed with this knowledge, one's forms practice becomes charged with intention, and this leads to results: one's actually being able to apply the power and reap the health benefits for which the internal martial art is reknowned."

[count]

Razak,
The praying mantis style is loosely based on the movements and spirit of the praying mantis. At some point someone studied the insect and found they were efficient in movement and power, quick and ruthless in attack and deadly. This was certainly inspirational in developing the system. It does not mean you must fight like a bug. It means you must take from the spirit of its characteristics. In bagua, especially in the beginning, it is not necessary to read or follow the I-ching or the Tao Te Ching to learn to fight. They are not instructional books or treatise on fighting at all. Although some of the text is directed at battle, military, and leadership this has little to do with the principles of baguazhang. Later on in training you will see that because of the nature of the system, comparisons and correlations are inevitable. The I-ching is certainly about the nature of change which is the spirit of baguazhang. But a direct comparison can be made with the 8 mother palms and combinations to the fact that there are also 64 chapters in the I-ching based on 8 trigrams and 8 possible combinations. In our bagua chi-kung there are 8 basic static exercises. Each one is done separately facing in the direction of the gua that relates to that energy, spirit, animal, organ, etc. etc. Each posture expresses the balance of yin and yang of the trigram upper middle and lower. In the dynamic level of our chi kung, you change from the posture to one of the 8 mother palms and back. It does not mean you must read the I-ching to get the benefits, but in understanding the relationship it is easier to focus on the specific energy. It is certainly up to the individual to set their own goals and objectives in studying martial arts. It is not necessary to include the study of history and philosophy to learn how to fight. But adding these things into the mix can definitely give insight in the steps necessary to attain a higher level of understanding of the art.

[virus fist]

Amen,
Bravo,bravissimo,Master Count.


VF

[Braden]

My take on things (and I think this addresses concerns raised in all the posts subsequent to my last) is that baguazhang was not derived from the I Ching, but rather, both were derived from the same source. This makes them brothers, rather than father and son - or just different branches on the same tree.

[razakdigital]

Count,

Good reply but I must say that a fighter can be born without the necessary knowledge of the I-Ching. I'm not Chinese so its not my culture so I will never get the same essence out of the I-Ching as such as a Chinese person would. So I tailor my understand of the fighting aspect of Pa Kua Chang from my prespective and from my culture. Now let me say that if your understand the principles of Pa Kua Chang (again - alignment, drills, forms, and pratical usage of it )you don't need the I-Ching necessarly. Again - how did so many pa kua fighters learn the art without being able to read? (Of course it could have been recited to them but I just don't see masters having time to teach you the I-Ching if they have to teach you Pa Kua itself)

Again- if I-Ching works for you by all means its all good. I must say that no one on this board can tell me you need the I-Ching to fight with Pa Kua.

peace...

[count]

You don't have to be Chinese to like Mandrin Duck. ummm, I'm hungry.
:D

[Sam Wiley]

I think it is more important to have an understanding of change than an understanding of a book about change. When I first started practicing Bagua, I never read the I-ching. In fact, I did not read it for several years. And on top of that, when I first read it I did not know how it related at all. Finally I understood how the concept of change worked with the Hexagrams, the same way it worked with the palms.

But nowadays I hear people saying how they find guides to practice in the text itself. Maybe I'm being a bit pessimistic here, but I don't think there are any Bagua practice guides in the text of the I-ching. It was written as a divinatory text, and sure, there are some excellent suggestions for how to live your life, but all the mystical mumbo jumbo in there has almost nothing to do with the practice of Bagua, at least in my opinion. That's where your Classics come in. And there were a whole truckload of them handed down.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[brucelee2]

It is my understanding that Wan Wen Kui's lineage of cheng shr bagua does not 'use' the i ching- the study of it is not advocated nor considered necessary to developing bagua 'mastery.'