Swaztika

[Green Cloud]

Who knows how Hitler got his hands on the shaolin symbol that looks like the swaztika????

[David Jamieson]

Hitler had a fascination for all things occult.

He co-opted the swastika because it is an ancient symbol that spans many cultures in a paralell nature. The swastika is found pretty much universally in cultures all over the world from native north americans to buddhism, to ancient celts and even vikings.

It's likely, he adopted the viking version and not the buddhist one and altered it to his purposes. He also adopted the double runes for the ss. In the formation of those runes, I believe the meaning is loosely "total victory".

He sent out all sorts of scientists and anthropologists out across the world to all sorts of obscure places a la Napoleon to collect religious artifacts and relics that he appeared to believe would give him even more power.

Other than that tidbit, I'd have to say you'll need to do some digging to find out more.

[Pork Chop]

Not only did he hijack the sunwheel (swastika) but he and his boys pretty much hijacked the teutonic rennaissance (rebirth & celebration of pre-christian german culture) that was going on as well.

Not that Wagner was a saint; but Hitler corrupted it to something purely evil.

It's a shame that white folk don't seem to know how to celebrate the beauty of their cultural legacy without it becoming hate-filled racism.

You can almost understand why so many white kids embrace other cultures instead of their own.

[yenhoi]

"Total victory" and "good triumphs evil."

Its the most revered symbol in the world. Plays a major part in all types of hinduism.

:eek:

[yenhoi]

It's a shame that white folk don't seem to know how to celebrate the beauty of their cultural legacy without it becoming hate-filled racism.

You can almost understand why so many white kids embrace other cultures instead of their own.

Hardly a white folk or white kid thing. All people of all colors hate each other with the same intensity, for similar cultural reasons.

[Sekabin]

There's actually some accounts in occult circles of massive occult battles going on between Hitler's lot and those in England.

But anyway, yeah it's far more likely that he took it from the norse runes, rather than buddhism/hinduism. Though around that time there was already quite a lot of information coming from connections to buddhism in sri lanka and spiritualist movements in the west.

[Sifu Darkfist]

It's a shame that white folk don't seem to know how to celebrate the beauty of their cultural legacy without it becoming hate-filled racism.

You can almost understand why so many white kids embrace other cultures instead of their own.

Hardly a white folk or white kid thing. All people of all colors hate each other with the same intensity, for similar cultural reasons.

Hmm That is what i call a racist comment. So i guess your bias is showing. Sweden, Norway Switz, can i name any other white neutralities of the utmost liberalism? how about the United States you bigot? There are countless people in this nation that celebrate diversity. Just as you dont like my white side of the family generalizing i am sure you do not want the arab side either. How about my daughters that are part african as well? Next you will be saying white monkey (but not to our faces). Bigots are bigots are bigots, and saying its no wonder why white people embrace other colors is the same as me stating that many asian men like white women, or better yet wear American clothes.
The acreditation of this quote is unclear so i do not know who the real bigot is but id like to think that my blood as well as my daughters or my masters are all equally accepted in this world. Otherwise in the words of Krushchev "we (meaning all diversity) will bury you"

[Brad]

I think you quoted the wrong person Sifu Darkfist (should be Pork Chop, not yenhoi).

Anyway, I'm not interested in other cultures because I'm ashamed of being white... I feel as good about having a mostly German/Austrain background as most Chinese do about being Chinese. It's not as if the only evil people of the 20th century were white folk. The Japanese government was a pretty big part of WW2 also... The Chinese government murdered millions of people... all kinds of nasty s#it going down in Africa... and of course there's the suicide bombing tactics in the middle east. White people shouldn't feel any better or worse than about their ancestry than anybody else.

[Wood Dragon]

Note: The Runen that Himmler appropriated for the SS are not genuine. They are a synthesized version, made up by Guido von List, in 1902 . The several varietes of Norse runes remain untainted by the Nazis.

Being a German (and Irish) extraction myself, I confess I've never felt much attraction to my grandparent's culture. Prussian history interested me in High School, but that's about it. Too much American Technocrat, I guess.

[Stranger]

The "S" (lightening bolt) rune doubled up for the SS insignia is "Sigel".

Sigel: means sun, fire, burning energy, justice. Success if you try.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Attributes of Sigel: As the rune of invincibility and achievement, Sigel serves as both the shield of protection and the sword of confidence. By strengthening ones proficiency and tact in assertive leadership, this rune provides one with the energy to keep from yielding during stress and difficulties.



Sigel embodies the motivating force towards self-realization while integrating life's energy, allwoing us the flexibility to flow with circumstances.



I stole this from some website. And stranger is right, it is the same rune (just doubled up)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Like anything else, symbols only have the meaning you attach to them.. that others attach their meanings in conflict with your own is a non-issue.. it is their deeds that bear witness to their intentions.. and, it is the intentions that motivate our interpretations of "good/bad"..

There is a fine line between prejudice and preference.

Be well..

[MasterKiller]

Remember that time Hitler went after the Ark of the Covenenant? Man, that was fiasco.

[SimonM]

Yeah and that creepy guy with the scarred hand and the evil French archaeologist both melted. Talk about a mess for the janitorial crew to have to clean up the next day.

[Oso]

It's not as if the only evil people of the 20th century were white folk. The Japanese government was a pretty big part of WW2 also... The Chinese government murdered millions of people... all kinds of nasty s#it going down in Africa... and of course there's the suicide bombing tactics in the middle east. White people shouldn't feel any better or worse than about their ancestry than anybody else.

LOL, and people get ticked with me when I say that people in general suck. There is evidence all around us that humanity in mass is a bad thing.;)

[omarthefish]

Remember that time Hitler went after the Ark of the Covenenant? Man, that was fiasco.

Not that I don't get the joke but the plot was inspired by historical events. I am also not so sure about the assertion that he adopted some sort of European version of the swastica. He spent a hell of a lot of resources digging around in Tibet and researching the stuff up there. There was some thought that the Tibetans, based on their bone structure, might have been closely related to the hypothetical Aryan race proposed by Madame Blavatsky.

That **** just blows my mind when I get into it and is the main reason I have pretty much sworn off all western occult practices. No matter what strand I follow it always seems to lead back to proto-natzism. Either it's Von List or it's Blavatski or Crowley or one of their close peers.

Anyone here know off hand where John Dee popped up out of?

[Pork Chop]

Just for the record, I'm white of German/Austrian, Irish, and English descent.
Not only that, but I'm a heathen, so those runes mean something to me.

I was speaking for myself and other kids i grew up with in saying that there was a reluctance on our part to celebrate any of our cultural heritage growing up.

I hate people who blame the media, but growing up it was "white men can't jump", "white men can't dance", "who wants to see a team of all white players?", "look at that ****y white kid".

Anytime it came to cultural pride, we'd try to duck the question.

Even the phrase "white pride" is a pseudonym for racist skinheads.

In reference to the subject at hand, people like the Nazis in Germany of the 20s and 30s, took Wagner, with his plays that made Teutonic people proud of their heritage, and turned it into an excuse to hate everyone else.

I know better now that I'm older.
In high school I tried to reconnect with my Irish roots (having 2 Irish grandmothers), but kept getting excluded coz of my last name.
Lately I've been researching the heathen thing and finding out about my Austrian/German roots (I have ancestors that were in the Prussian military btw).

I think maybe you misunderstood where I was going with my comment.
I didn't mean white folks are the only ones who turn racist any time they try to celebrate their cultural heritage.

I meant that for a lot of movements that celebrate cultural heritage, for the various caucasion cultures, you've constantly gotta be on guard against some racist using it for his own means.

Whether it's skinheads showing up at the St Paddy's Day parade, Aryan Brotherhood prisoners in jail practicing Asatru (heathenism) and getting it put on the hategroup watchlist, or NeoNazis crashing a Wagnerian revival of Ring of Troth; a couple boneheads can make you regret even trying to learn about your culture.

[David Jamieson]

John Dee is pre pre pre any of those victorian occultists.

he was an Elizabethan era science advisor and astrologist to the Queen of England (QE1)

he was also the reputed founder of organized Rosicrucianism.
read more on this quirky fella here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dee

Interesting character in the scheme of western occult practices.

For info on what hitler was into occult wise, look up the Thule society and info on the Vril. keep an open mind. And yes, Hitler and his cronies sent out expeditions across the world to antartica to search for agartha, to tibet to find secrets, to india to learn secrets, everywhere. He was obsessed with these things.

[shadowlin]

I think you quoted the wrong person Sifu Darkfist (should be Pork Chop, not yenhoi).

Anyway, I'm not interested in other cultures because I'm ashamed of being white... I feel as good about having a mostly German/Austrain background as most Chinese do about being Chinese. It's not as if the only evil people of the 20th century were white folk. The Japanese government was a pretty big part of WW2 also... The Chinese government murdered millions of people... all kinds of nasty s#it going down in Africa... and of course there's the suicide bombing tactics in the middle east. White people shouldn't feel any better or worse than about their ancestry than anybody else.

Not to mention there's no difference between the Japanese people who were as patriotic and zealous in the 1940s as Americans are today... or any other people at any other time in any other place.

Evil, murder, and shame are the crops reaped when the seeds of hatred and jealousy are sown in the heart of Man.

[@PLUGO]

For info on what hitler was into occult wise, read HELLBOY!!!

[omarthefish]

John Dee is pre pre pre any of those victorian occultists.

he was an Elizabethan era science advisor and astrologist to the Queen of England (QE1)

he was also the reputed founder of organized Rosicrucianism.
read more on this quirky fella here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dee

Interesting character in the scheme of western occult practices.

Thanks. I threw that name out there because it was the only guy I could think of who didn't seem to match with the others.



For info on what hitler was into occult wise, look up the Thule society and info on the Vril. keep an open mind.

BTDT. I also like the saying, "Don't keep your mind so open your brain falls out."

I've known lots of nice fun loving occultist. Mostly they were just completely ignorant of the history of what they were doing or you just had to get into a slightly deeper conversation about the inner meaning behind their practices. My mind is not likely to change while I am here in China because that whole tradition doesn't seem to exist around here so there's not much chance of meeting enough counterexamples to convince me of anything.

I only came to these conclusions because I was headed that way myself untill I got deep enough in to decide that it was just the most beautful angel all over again. It never goes anywhere good.

[GeneChing]

For info on swastikas and Shaolin, read our shaolin forum thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36313).

D.S: Do NOT start the great comic wars again, especially not now. ;)

[@PLUGO]

I think we can both agree on HELLBOY's Coolitude . . .

[SimonM]

That **** just blows my mind when I get into it and is the main reason I have pretty much sworn off all western occult practices. No matter what strand I follow it always seems to lead back to proto-natzism. Either it's Von List or it's Blavatski or Crowley or one of their close peers.



Just remember it wasn't just the Crowleys. There were also people like Yeats and I've never heard him being involved with nazi type stuff though he probably would have been quite fond of the IRA.

[Sekabin]

Yeah Crowley's organisation was actually quite small compared to the one that he belonged to temporarily - the Golden Dawn, which included Yeats along with a host of other creative people.

[Pork Chop]

dammmit i still want an apology for someone calling me a racist biggot. :D

i know old adolf was into the occult, but he considered Wagner his greatest mentor. Wagner's plays were heavily steeped in Teutonic mythos - what most would probably recognize as the viking/norse mythology. So, while I agree that he was into the occult, that he knew of the swastika as a symbol used in almost every culture world wide, and that he was passionate about finding (creating) his aryan "roots"; i really wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the obvious Germanic influence in using the symbol.

[danmyete]

First, greetings All,

Thanks to the site for the forum.

Second, what is being classed as the "Swatika" is known to other cultures. Personally, I believe its origins lie in Africa and its African variant centers around the concept of the so-called male/female, complimentary "opposites" concept so prevalent in African metaphysical thought.

My two cents.

[Eddie]

Africa is pretty big. which African culture are you refering to?

[omarthefish]

Yeah Crowley's organisation was actually quite small compared to the one that he belonged to temporarily - the Golden Dawn, which included Yeats along with a host of other creative people.


Just remember it wasn't just the Crowleys. There were also people like Yeats and I've never heard him being involved with nazi type stuff though he probably would have been quite fond of the IRA.

Most of the people I named can not be considered "The Crowleys" or even "Crowley's organization". You guys just picked up on the best known name. Golden Dawn goes back to the same place I was talking about. Natzi party was fimly rooted in the Golden Dawn. The only name mentioned so far that I really can't comment on is Joyce. Haven't looked into him so I confess ignorance up front.

It's all evil evil stuff and ultimately Satanic in the most authentic way. Not in the hollywood horror movie way but in the way that real Satanism works. The phrase everyone knows best, Crowley's summary, "Do what thy wilt...." is a real succint summary of Satan's sin. Without this rearangement of the higerarchy, placing "man" at the top and proclaiming that Man is the ultimate determinant of his destiny, then there is no room for the birth of Natzi Germany. I can't even say "the religious structure that they created" because the religious structure predated the Natzis. If it wasn't for Von List taking in a young Hitler as his protoge it's not possible IMO for him to have gone on the the "heights" that he did.

It amazes me that "Astara" has managed to so thouroughly erase the memory of the name as basically the anti-semitic cult that it was in the 30's.

No Blavatski, no "Aryan Race".

The evidence of Hitler's obsession with the Wagner's adaptation of the grail myth comes much later.

The peace symbol comes from turning Natzi grave markers upside down. The natzi's made it a policy to erase all traces of the Christian god from the german culture so they needed to get rid of all those pesky crosses marking graves. The chose as a replacement the "man" symbol. The rune representing "Man" because they were replacing god with man. That's the one connecting thread between most all of those turn of the century occultists. The age of reason was in full swing and people were obsessed with mechanism and theology was reflecting that. There seemed to be this wild idea that we had figured everything out or would soon and that included religious beliefs.

The idea of sumoning angles or working magic at all is explicitly forbidden by all 3 Judeo-Christian religions. The reasoning is because it is implicitly evil. You try to place yourself "higher" up when the essence of the Judeo-Christian tradition is the opposite. It's humility, not hubris.

[David Jamieson]

First, greetings All,

Thanks to the site for the forum.

Second, what is being classed as the "Swatika" is known to other cultures. Personally, I believe its origins lie in Africa and its African variant centers around the concept of the so-called male/female, complimentary "opposites" concept so prevalent in African metaphysical thought.

My two cents.


I don't believe it originated with any one culture. There is enough evidence around teh world to tell us their is a common stream of thought in virtually all cultures that is independent of each other. For example, the swastika and all its forms can be representitive of any concept you wish to attach to it. It shows a wheel that is continuous, could be the milky wa galaxy, could be a lot of things.

Other things that show that cultures indepently seem to be along the same line of thinking is pyramids. The human condition and how we percieve things is not much different from culture to culture. How we express our perception comes out in our culture, but the fact we are all human is underlying everything.

I am also not one of the people who is comfortable with the whole origin theory. I think life is like a mold and will simultaneously pop up in physical form wherevere the conditions are met in order for that to happen.

so, the out of africa theory such as put forth by the Leakys and others isn't exactly what I would think of as 'actual'. It's possible, but then, I tend to think about the freshwater theory that has at its base the idea that humans came into being wherever fresh water was that could support them.

Ultimately, it is irrelevant to the here and now and holds no tangible context and will remain a trivial thing. I don't believe science and anthropology will ever move beyond the terminological thinking that they have this tendency to ahere to. there msu be an origin, there must be a first etc etc. Just a bunch of cartesian dualism really isn't it?

The actual truth is that we have not one iota of a clue as to our origins, why we are alive, what is the universe and so on. All the big questions remain unanswered and will be so as long as we stick to our human condition and examine it with our dull and unknowing minds such as they are. :p

[GreenCloudCLF]

It's all evil evil stuff and ultimately Satanic in the most authentic way. Not in the hollywood horror movie way but in the way that real Satanism works. The phrase everyone knows best, Crowley's summary, "Do what thy wilt...." is a real succint summary of Satan's sin. Without this rearangement of the higerarchy, placing "man" at the top and proclaiming that Man is the ultimate determinant of his destiny, then there is no room for the birth of Natzi Germany. I can't even say "the religious structure that they created" because the religious structure predated the Natzis. If it wasn't for Von List taking in a young Hitler as his protoge it's not possible IMO for him to have gone on the the "heights" that he did.


This entire comment is presupposing a Christian mythos. There are plenty of religions based in mysticism that qould not be capable of the atrocities Hitler committed. Neo-Paganism (one of the fastest growing religions in the US) is based on that partial, and out of context, quote by Crowley. The whole quote actually is "An' it harm none, do what thou wilt." Leave out that first part, and sure it sounds like a selfish egocentric policy.

Also Satanism, as the term is used in popular culture, is a misnomer. Christians apply the term Satanism to ANY religion, belief, or act they disagree with. Satanism is an actual religion or belief structure, organized by Anton LeFay (sp?). To group all types of mysticism in with this is a disservice to other cultures and beliefs. In fact Christianity and Judiasm are both steeped in Mystical heritage. Judiasms biggest example is the Qabbalah. And Christianity has the power of prayer, use of incense in ritual, and the original placement of its churches.

[David Jamieson]

'do no harm and do as you will' is found frequently in the thelema texts (google em if you like) and in hermeticism in general.

a lot of the mystical orders spring from hermeticism or the gnostic p.o.v or both or a combination of these. :p

[GreenCloudCLF]

'do no harm and do as you will' is found frequently in the thelema texts (google em if you like) and in hermeticism in general.

a lot of the mystical orders spring from hermeticism or the gnostic p.o.v or both or a combination of these. :p

Many pre-Christian religions trace their roots through hermeticism and gnosticism. In fact, these types of belief structures are the first "organized religions", not as in having temples, as they worshipped outdoors, but in that many people shared a common belief structure. It wasthe dawn of Christianity that had forced many religions underground. The term Pagan was used to describe any of the non-mainstream religions (anything other than Christianity, Judiasm, or Islam). And in fact Christianity adopted many of the old religions practices in order to make conversion to the "true" religion easier. The Christmas tree is an example of this.

And my previous comment about the placement of churches being mystical referred to the way that the Christians would build their temples on the land previously used for worshipping by the heathens.

In fact the Christians own Golden Rule is in fact a *******ization of the An' it harm non, do what thou wilt expression.

[SevenStar]

Also Satanism, as the term is used in popular culture, is a misnomer. Christians apply the term Satanism to ANY religion, belief, or act they disagree with.

no. They call other religions pagan. However, admittedly I do know a lot of devout christians who associate certain music - marilyn manson, danzig, etc. with satanism and also associate things like pokemon with demonic practice, or satanism.


And Christianity has the power of prayer, use of incense in ritual, and the original placement of its churches.

that's not mystical, per se. the "power" of prayer comes from God - the center of christianity.

[GreenCloudCLF]

no. They call other religions pagan. However, admittedly I do know a lot of devout christians who associate certain music - marilyn manson, danzig, etc. with satanism and also associate things like pokemon with demonic practice, or satanism.


I was referring to certain practices that are performed in Pagan rituals, that are referred to as satanism, in much the same way you pointed out secular things are referred to as such.


that's not mystical, per se. the "power" of prayer comes from God - the center of christianity.

It has roots in mysticism. It was modeled from chanting of the Druids in Europe, as well as other religions. Spoken prayer has mystical roots. Granted, some Christians use silent prayer, which in and of itself does not have mystical origins. Infact, the use of incense in church is supposed to carry the spoken prayers to heaven.

[SevenStar]

the incencse thing is new to me... I've never been in a christian church that burns incense - is that one of the other judeo-christian religions?

[GreenCloudCLF]

the incencse thing is new to me... I've never been in a christian church that burns incense - is that one of the other judeo-christian religions?

I believe it is most popular in Roman Catholic sects. You can see an altar boy carrying a swinging incense pot whenever the pope (at least the last one) gives mass. Usually at high ranking Bishops and Cardinals masses as well. They are less common in everyday (or every week) ceremonies.

[omarthefish]

I wish someone other than Davie Jameson would show a little real education on the topic. So far he's the only person so give me anything to think about or google.


This entire comment is presupposing a Christian mythos.

Everything I commented on IS part of the Christian mythos. The European magical christan is disctinctly Christian. Even the Germanic recreations. ALL those neo-pagan turn of the century occultists were as christian as you could get. KABALLA is a hebrew word. The Natzi neo-pagan faith was so methodically anti-Chritian/Jewish it could not possibly have sprouted up outside of the Christian mythos. The Wagner Opera...whatsit? Parsival, the core myth of the entire Natzi parti: Grail Myth, as in "the holy Grail of Christ".

Dig deeper.


There are plenty of religions based in mysticism that qould not be capable of the atrocities Hitler committed.

I agree. Take Judaism for example, especially the Hassidic movement. You might want to either rephrase that or figure out what I am actually saying. Maybe ask Jamie Davidson since he clearly understands my point even though he doesn't entirely agree with it.


Neo-Paganism (one of the fastest growing religions in the US)

I am well aware of that and if was not for the depth of my involvement in that movement I wouldn never have found out what horrible roots this movement has.


is based on that partial, and out of context, quote by Crowley. The whole quote actually is "An' it harm none, do what thou wilt." Leave out that first part, and sure it sounds like a selfish egocentric policy.

Leave it in and it's even worse. It harms MANY. It is incredible hubris to think that it harms none because a little freak like Crowley said so.



Also Satanism, as the term is used in popular culture, is a misnomer. Christians apply the term Satanism to ANY religion, belief, or act they disagree with. Satanism is an actual religion or belief structure, organized by Anton LeFay (sp?). To group all types of mysticism in with this is a disservice to other cultures and beliefs.

You are wrong on so many level I don't know where to start. I think the main thing is that you have thrown the term mysticism and tried to pretend that it has something to do with Satanism. What the term is used for in the popular culture is 100% irrelevant to my post. I was apparently not explicit enough when I said, "not the hollywood version but real satanism. You are also showing your further lack of education on the subject to try and narrow the term down to one particular version as if these practices started with Anton Lefay. If I was in the states and had access to my personal library I could point you in the direction of Satanic movements 1000+ years ago. LOTS of them. No one has grouped "all types of mysticism in with this" except in your own imagination. This riff of yours on mysticism is irrelevant to the topic. It's a red herring and a distraction.



In fact the Christians own Golden Rule is in fact a *******ization of the An' it harm non, do what thou wilt expression.

Wrong wrong wrong. I am not certain where the first reference to the golden rule is but you can find it many centuries before that piece of garbage. It is a paraphrase of Rabbi Akiba's summary of the torah many centuries ago. I expect there is a reference in the gospels since it's usually thought of as Christian doctrine but:

http://www.ou.org/NCSY/projects/darcheidaat/5761/spr61/Chesed%20is%20Golden.htm
An often-recalled mishna is that of the potential convert coming before Hillel, the sage. The man rudely challenged Hillel to explain the whole Torah while he stood on one foot. Hillel complied, raising his foot as he said: "Don’t do to your friend what you would not like to have done to you." He then returned to standing on both feet and continued: "The rest is explanation, now go and learn."

[omarthefish]

the incencse thing is new to me... I've never been in a christian church that burns incense - is that one of the other judeo-christian religions?

Instructions for the preparation of incense are in the Hebrew testament. Parts of it are repeated as part of the morning prayer. Local traditions change and some churches use incense more than others. The eastern churches like the Greek and Russian orthodox tend to have really smokey churches.



Also Satanism, as the term is used in popular culture, is a misnomer. Christians apply the term Satanism to ANY religion, belief, or act they disagree with.

But I don't and haven't used the term in thay way at all. None of that is really relevant to the traditions I have attacked as satanic.

[danmyete]

It can be found within the Nsibidi sacred script of Nigeria and Cameroon and within the Akan royal Adinkra ritual/communication system of Ghana, just to name two.

[David Jamieson]

It can be found within the Nsibidi sacred script of Nigeria and Cameroon and within the Akan royal Adinkra ritual/communication system of Ghana, just to name two.

Yes, no one is disagreeing that it doesn't exist in African culture and history. And it has likely been there for a very long time. What I was making mention of was the independent development and use of the symbol and how that is of some interest in the topic.

Sometimes things are adopted from one culture to another, but strangely enough, there are many cases of no contact and yet similar symbology. Swastika being a pretty good example, but other symbols as well such as a cross for instance which was in use in Egypt long before it became a Christian symbol. Like about 2500 years before Christianity existed. :)

So if we look at tibetan swastikas, we know that there may have been a cultural influence from the buddhism that came there out of Nepal and India and so, the lamaistic traditions use it as a buddhist symbol. However, one could strangle their mind to death in an attempt at making a connection between the swastikas of Africa and those of Asia. Not to mention the swastikas that are all over precolumbia artwork of the americas and even in later artwork found in North american Natives such as teh navajo who make use of the swastika as well and did so before european contact and likely without post buddha Asians or Africans.

It is found in old celtic remnants, norse antiquities, all over the place there are swastikas, spirals, crosses, circles with a dot in the center and so on as symbology goes. It's really quite fascinating and it's still stumping anthropologists in the here and now as to how all this interconnectivity occurs in the great stream that is us as a species.

[Oso]

7*: as said, definitely a Roman Catholic thing. Most big churches even if only served by a regular priest will commonly use incense for Sunday services. The two churches I went to in Richmond burned incense in every Sunday Mass. But, that was in the 70's. It may not be as prevalent now.

I'd say there would be a big enough Catholic church in your town if you wanted to go check it out.

My father blames his chronic sinus issues on his years as an alter boy in a Greek Orthodox church and having to stand for 2 hours w/ the smoking pot right in front of him.

[Oso]

It is found in old celtic remnants, norse antiquities, all over the place there are swastikas, spirals, crosses, circles with a dot in the center and so on as symbology goes. It's really quite fascinating and it's still stumping anthropologists in the here and now as to how all this interconnectivity occurs in the great stream that is us as a species.

obviously it means it came from the visitors. :p

I think we're just a big science experiment by some teenager from another dimension.


this was pretty good:


The actual truth is that we have not one iota of a clue as to our origins, why we are alive, what is the universe and so on. All the big questions remain unanswered and will be so as long as we stick to our human condition and examine it with our dull and unknowing minds such as they are.

the bottom line is that people can't handle not knowing...can't handle that when the neurons stop firing...th' th' th' that's all folks!

[omarthefish]

Joseph Cambells stuff explains it good enough for me.

Basically, and this is not a Joseph Campbell summary by any means, you just need to look at what the swatzika symbolizes and then realize that as humans, regardless of culture, we have certain psychological similarities that are not culturally specific and are as hard wired into us as "labs are friendly" and "mice are timid". Some of those traits include our mental and emotional associations with certain kinds of imagery and certain numbers.

There is no culture in the world that doesn't have some version of "the cardinal directions". The numer "one" will always represent unity and 2, duality and 3 will always be thought of as something kind of special, mystic trinities abound.

The swastica is a symbol of the creative/destructive cycle. It is supposed to be a kind of a wheel, like a 4 spoked wheel with the spokes leaving trails. Many early swastikas have curved outer arms. I can't speak for the African tradition because I've never read up on it but the wheel motif for the swastica is common across Asia, South and North America and many European traditions.

It's also common in Ancient Greece motif where it shows up as a symbol for the quaantity "9" and all that it represents in ancient Greek Thought.

It is widely believed to be the oldest and most widespread religious symbol in the entire world.

[David Jamieson]

It is said that science is not so much about answering the question of why is there something but why is there not just nothing. :p

[Pork Chop]

Okay I'm a little confused. I feel like omar's making fun of my intelligence and I'm not sure it's directed at me or if i should even pay it any mind.

I'm not sure where omar's going with the occult discussion and I understand he's got multiple conversations going on at the moment.

Let me just clarify what I meant.

By Wagner, I wasn't talking Parsifal, i was talking Der Ring des Nibelungen (Ring Cycle), with Wotan (Odin) and the familiar gods of the norse legends.

Yes, I know the Grail stories were Christianity meets buddhism.

However, I did dig up this interesting collection of reviews/discussions about Kohler's "Wagner's Hitler" on amazon-
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0745622399/102-0619237-7559340?v=glance&n=283155

I'm assuming by "Astara" you're referring to the Nazi religion based on Tibetan Bonpas (black magic) and not "Asatru", the modern day term for heathens, meaning "true to the Aesir"; or the pagan holiday "Ostara" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostara )

This link (yeah I know, it's wikipedia) does a decent job of showing that the swastika existed in pre-christian europe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Pre-Christian_European_traditions

Hitler had a huge obsession with art and the opera. Again, all I've got is one so-so link, but I have a hard time seeing hitler's obsession with Tibet predating his 16th birthday:
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/art.htm

I guess I have a problem understanding why it would be so out of the question for a guy, super-proud of pre-Christian Germanic heritage, who so hated non-Germans, to the point of Genocide, to embrace a symbol used by pre-Christian Germans.


About the "ALL those neo-pagan turn of the century occultists were as christian as you could get" comment:
I can't speak for the occultists but Asatru falls under the neopagan banner and I wouldn't say it's grounded in Christianity (though it's impossible to discout a Christian influence).

The roots of Asatru date back further than the 1st century Roman Historian Tacitus:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/tacitus1.html

A lot of the source material for today's heathenism was also the source that Wagner drew upon for his Ring Cycle, ie the Eddas and the Poetic Eddas.


Hate the idea of contributing to an internet argument and don't really dig people who talk down to others; but I thought I'd at least make an attempt to clarify some of what i was saying. Wagner was no saint; but he produced some good work. I don't think the racism that used heathenism & heathen lore as a vehicle should define heathenism.

[SimonM]

I wish someone other than Davie Jameson would show a little real education on the topic. So far he's the only person so give me anything to think about or google.



*Cracks his knuckles*

Alright Omar I'll weigh in on this one for you. I am actually quite familliar with the history of Golden Dawn, OtO and the Rosicrucians. I just wasn't particularly interested in arguing over the relative piety of S.L. "MacGregor" Mathers and his crew.

The thing is that although they were considered heretical by the mainstream of Christianity most Christian mystics believed themselves to be highly pious. Note I said most, Crowley certainly did not. Islam and Judaeism are both slightly more forgiving of mysticism than Christianity. Let's first look at Judaeism which is the source of most of the numerology in use in Europe. The Kabbalah (choose your spelling of choice, I can't read hebrew) is the most oft-cited example of Jewish mysticism and, in fact, it had spilled over into Christianity as early as the 13th century.

Two strong examples of mysticism within Judaeism are the story of the Prague Golem (who was eventually destroyed for being a bit too close to human for the comfort of the Rabbi who animated it - he agreed with the rest of Judaeica that the creation of actual people was reserved for god alone) and the text called the "Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage".

The Abramelin text was highly significant in the Golden Dawn schism. Mathers had gone to Paris where a very old manuscript of this book (which purports to have been written/transcribed in it's most recent form in Austria during the 1200s) had been found translating it from the archaic form of french it was writen in to English. The mathers translation is still the standard today.

The author of the non-extant 13th century Austrian manuscript was a man who refers to himself only as Abraham the Jew. He in turn claims (like most medaeval magicians) that his magic is the true magic granted to Solomon by an archangel and used to enslave demons to construct his temple. He claims that he recieved this system of Solomanic magic from a hermit in either Egypt or the middle east. The book makes two slightly contradictory claims. First it claims that a person should not convert to a new faith in order to use the magic because of the importance of the sincerity of their belief. Second it claims that faith in God is necessary. It holds these mainly because the book only really considers the Christian, Jewish and Islamic experience. The author had no interaction with Hindus for instance.

Anyway while Mathers was away he left Yeats in charge of Golden Dawn. Crowley chafed at Yeats' leadership and tried to take over. However he failed and split to from OtO with a few other members of Golden Dawn. This was a death knell for the older secret society though and they eventually collapsed.

Now onto Islamic mysticism. There is a small sect of Islam called Sufiism. These guys are an ecclectic mix of Islam and nearly Ch'an like sentements. However they believe that they can overcome the limits of their physical form thorough their understanding of the divine. High ranking Sufis have been purported to levitate, communicate telepathically or even teleport from one place to another. These guys are neither the mainstream nor are they the frothing, rabid, fundamentalist boogeymen of Islam we get fed on the news. But they are also not particularly persecuted for their beliefs by mainstream Islam and are generally accepted as being faithful Islamics (if a bit wierd).

So I disagree with you that faith within the Hebraic religious group is necessarily at odds with magic or with mysticism. That being said I will admit that while faith and magic are very much able to co-exist it is never within the mainstream of these religions. Furthermore I'd say that Christianity is the least welcoming of magic (magic interested sects like the Gnostics were regularly declared heretical) while of the three Judaeism is probably the most welcoming of it due to the relative importance of King Solomon to thier faith.

[omarthefish]

Okay I'm a little confused. I feel like omar's making fun of my intelligence and I'm not sure it's directed at me or if i should even pay it any mind.

I'm not sure where omar's going with the occult discussion and I understand he's got multiple conversations going on at the moment.

Was making fun of GreenCloud, not you and not his intelligence, his apparent ignorance on the subject. I think you felt it was aimed at you because I felt compelled to comment on the Wagner.



By Wagner, I wasn't talking Parsifal, i was talking Der Ring des Nibelungen (Ring Cycle), with Wotan (Odin) and the familiar gods of the norse legends.

Yes, I know the Grail stories were Christianity meets buddhism.

Cool. I missed that. Parsifal, I think, was more influential in the creation of the Natzi mythology. I never even thought of Wagner as being particularly bad and think that it's kind of stupid that his works were (are?) banned in Israel. It's not like he composed anything for the Natzi's. It's just that his choice of story content was really convenient for them. It fit the mythology they were creating.


I'm assuming by "Astara" you're referring to the Nazi religion based on Tibetan Bonpas (black magic) and not "Asatru", the modern day term for heathens, meaning "true to the Aesir"; or the pagan holiday "Ostara"

Yes, that's exactly what I meant but AFAIK, they are just different spellings of the same term. It is a rare "heathen" indeed that has ever heard of the connection. It's not like there is a lineage from one to the other but IMO they share the same roots only the modern day "pagans" for the most part are unaware of this darker side of their history. The old Natzi version was also a reaction to an overindustrialized society and a reactionary movement to return to a romanticised version of the "old ways". Get back to nature and so on. Same old, same old.


...but I have a hard time seeing hitler's obsession with Tibet predating his 16th birthday:
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/art.htm

16th B-day?!? That's pretty early. I would have guessed it wasn't untill after his association with Von List that he got "that way".

[quote]
About the "ALL those neo-pagan turn of the century occultists were as christian as you could get" comment:
I can't speak for the occultists but Asatru falls under the neopagan banner and I wouldn't say it's grounded in Christianity (though it's impossible to discout a Christian influence).

I have to admit I overstated that a bit. It's not simple influenced. It's reactionary. For example, there is nothing so typical about any given epoch as their own attitudes towards their place in history. Part of the humour of Austin Powers is just looking at a 60's attitude about the 21st century. Those sci-fi movies of the 60's say FAR more about the 60's than they do about the past 6 years. The neo-pagan movement is, IMO, far more shaped by the modern Judeo-Christian enviroment that gave birth to it than by any actual ancient pagan belief systems.



The roots of Asatru date back further than the 1st century Roman Historian

Yes, but there is no continuous connection. It's like the relationship between the Egyptology of the Tarot deck and actual Egyptian studies.

I hope I've clarified a bit. Gotta get to class. bye.

[omarthefish]

Simon,

Surprise surprise.....

I have no time to even read that right now. You wrote while I was posting. I have a class to teach and will read your stuff on my lunch break.

Now this thread is heating up!

[David Jamieson]

Yeah and we haven't even touched on what happened when Krishnamurti was appointed to head the order of the eastern star. hee hee, in his wisdom, he immediately dissolved it.

needless to say, they were slightly ****ed at him for that.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Omar,

First, you are rightabout my simplyfing of the term "Satanism". There were many things predating LeFay's works that Christians considered Satanic. Witchcraft and the like...I was oversimplyfing that.

As for the darker roots of mysticism that you claim most neo-pagans are either ignorant about, or ignore. This falls into the same category as Islams who condemn the "Holy Jihad" of killing innocents for their God. Or Christians who barely acknowledge the existence of the Crusades or the inquisiton (No one expects the Spanish inquisition)...

Religion is an individual belief, based on a group conciousness. It works in the way the collective unconcious works (much like you were speaking about the similarities in numbers across cultures). To completely dismiss a religion based on how it was warped and used at one time, or one person is ludicrious. That would be akin to dismantling the Roman Catholic church based on the actions of a small number of their preists.

While I think it is important to learn from the past, so we are not doomed to repeat it, completely ruling something out due to one transgression is laughable. These types of religions existed for thousands of years before Hitlers assimilation of them into his beliefs.

[FuXnDajenariht]

the word aryan did not have really widespread negative connotations until this century especially after world war 2. when you dismiss someone as rascist for using the word aryan you have to look carefully at their historical context. i studied Blavatsky in depth and to say that she has an alternative view is history is and understatement. so to believe that she is NOT referring to the modern definition of an aryan is not a stretch of the imagination in the least. aryan originally stood for a class of Hindu that invaded/migrated from Central Asia into the Middle East, India and parts of Europe. the term got changed because of rascist Colonialists and Imperialist believing that nothing good ever comes about without the direct influence of white Europeans. but its disputed exactly who the Aryans were or where they came from or how much influence they actually had on Indian culture. the entire invasion scenario is even under scrutiny for not having adequate evidence.

anyway, symbols and word meanings change over time and you can't compare the usage of one word with one era in time to another. the Nazis and most racists in general will change any piece of history to fit their own agenda, and when something has negative imagery its almost impossible to take that away. most people dont even know about the swatstikas long peaceful history. well the same can be said for the word aryan. just look things up before dismissing them.

[omarthefish]

This is going to take more than one post so I can keep clear who I am talking to.

FuXn,

I have not said anything negative whatsoever about the swastica symbol and I am well aware of what the word "Aryan" can mean. The context is not confusing here. We are not discussing the linguistic groups of central Asia.

The use of the word "Aryan" that the Natzi's adopted comes directly from Blavatsky's work. She outlines 7 "super" races of the ancient past, the Atlanteans, Aryans and others who had various supoerhuman powers, psyhic powers and stuff like that and explains how they lost all of that due to interbreeding and stuff. The Natzi "superman" is taken directly out of Blavatsky's work. The basis for their eugenics program was also an attempt to put into practice Blavatsky's theories.

It's all there in "The Secret Doctrine". Then look a bit at the sources of the eugenics program...IF you can find anything. I used to have a really good series of British documentary's on the occult origins of the party but they got lost in my travels.

GreenCloud,


To completely dismiss a religion based on how it was warped and used at one time, or one person is ludicrious.

I am not really talking about actual, authentic pagan belief systems. I am speaking specifically of the 20th century wiccan and ritual magik movement. Rather than referring to bad things that have sprung up out of the movement, I am saying that it was pretty bad to begin with. I am not refering to "Satanism" as a religion per se. It exists withing the Catholic church, Judaism and Islam as well. I am reffering to the specific practices and belief stuctures which, if they are deconstructed, amount to worshiping Satan.

It's not for nothing that he is traditionally supposed to be the most beautiful of all the angles and originally closest to God. The bat winged, goat legged, spiked tail version is not what you get up front. First you get a really in depth examination of the Chritian (or Jewish) esoteric structure. Only after being led through endless initiations and more and more layers of complexity does the structure arise that puts the individual and more signifigantly the "will" in center stage and the a priori assumptions that define the Judeo-Christian tradition get pushed aside.


That would be akin to dismantling the Roman Catholic church based on the actions of a small number of their preists.


No. In my case it would be akin to dismantling the Roman Catholic church based on the actions of Paul or whoever actually established the curch to begin with. I have not spoken of off shoots and various modern day incidences. I am asking people to take a long hard look at the roots of what they practice. The modern day version is evil in it's core. I am not talking about ligthing candles and incense or being inspired by am alternate mythology. That's not where the problem lies. That's just the window dressing.

Evil is more subtle than that. That's why there is so much of it. If it was as obvious as it is in the movies then it really wouldn't be so difficult to fight it.

(see that? Now I'm fighting evil!!! :D) [i] <---only half joking.

[omarthefish]

Simon,


"The thing is that although they were considered heretical by the mainstream of Christianity most Christian mystics believed themselves to be highly pious.".....So I disagree with you that faith within the Hebraic religious group is necessarily at odds with magic or with mysticism. That being said I will admit that while faith and magic are very much able to co-exist it is never within the mainstream of these religions."

Not just most. I'd say virtually all of them. Same thing for Judaism or Islam. Mysticism is essentially a pious activity. The has nothing to do with "mysterious" or "magical". It means, in a religious context, a belief system that is based on a personal or transpersonal experience of the divine rather than on intellect and study. On of the distinguishing factors of Jewish mysticism is how mainstream and orthodox it is. The reasons are somewhat complicated but I'll get into a couple of them.



"So I disagree with you that faith within the Hebraic religious group is necessarily at odds with magic or with mysticism. That being said I will admit that while faith and magic are very much able to co-exist it is never within the mainstream of these religions.

You really need to separate the terms magik and mysticism. They are somwhate related but are really very different. Magik is explicitly forbidden in Jewish tradition whereas mysticism is the very core. Same thing for faith and magik. How could you have a magikal practice with no faith? The idea is absurd.

The Hassidic Jews, those guys with the fedoras and the braided beards, THOSE are mystics. They are also super orthodox. Ironically, in the Jewish tradition, it tends to be the MORE orthodox or conservatice Jews that are the mystics and the reformers, the more liberal, relaxed practitioners are the ones who stick to humanistic and historical-anthropological explanations for the Biblical texts and emphaise Talmidic study over Kabalistic.

Part of the reason is that the traditional rule for studying Kabala is that you must be 40 years old minimum AND you must have demonstrated mastery of the entire Torah (Hebrew Bible), the Talmud and other religious texts. The Talmud is more of a legal text that trains your thinking and therefore makes sure you have strong enough dialectical skills to avoid getting lost in the vaguaries of the Zohar, the Bahir and other esoteric texts. Biblical texts like Ezekial or Song of Songs are also often forbidden to younger or less educated students. This is a far cry from the catch as catch can religious training of modern day neo-pagans.

In any case, it is because of these incredibly stringent requirements for mystical study that what IS produced is so often accepted by the rest of the orthodoxy. The whole point of religion is to bring people closer to God and THAT is pretty much the definition of the mystical experience. It is direct communion with God. So when the equivalent of a Phd in the faith with 15 years of research in the field who has had his work reviewed, critiqued and challenged in a way very similar to what happens in the scientific community, when all that happens and the ideas still stand......well there's not much to cry about. It's not mainstream but it IS orthodox.

I'd like to get into the place of Magic in the Jewish tradition but my two posts are long enough already. I'm writing a book here. heh.

[Green Cloud]

Omarthefish, that's realy interesting stuff. Please continue, and can you expand a little more about the Wiken religion??

[Ultimatewingchun]

THE FOLLOWING QUOTE ABOUT HELENA BLAVATSKY IS ESSENTIALLY CORRECT:

"...the word aryan did not have really widespread negative connotations until this century especially after world war 2. when you dismiss someone as rascist for using the word aryan you have to look carefully at their historical context. i studied Blavatsky in depth and to say that she has an alternative view is history is and understatement. so to believe that she is NOT referring to the modern definition of an aryan is not a stretch of the imagination in the least. aryan originally stood for a class of Hindu that invaded/migrated from Central Asia into the Middle East, India and parts of Europe. the term got changed because of rascist Colonialists and Imperialist believing that nothing good ever comes about without the direct influence of white Europeans. but its disputed exactly who the Aryans were or where they came from or how much influence they actually had on Indian culture. the entire invasion scenario is even under scrutiny for not having adequate evidence.

anyway, symbols and word meanings change over time and you can't compare the usage of one word with one era in time to another. the Nazis and most racists in general will change any piece of history to fit their own agenda, and when something has negative imagery its almost impossible to take that away. most people dont even know about the swatstikas long peaceful history. well the same can be said for the word aryan. just look things up before dismissing them."


***BUT THE FOLLOWING QUOTE ABOUT BLAVATSKY IS MISLEADING IN THE EXTREME :

"The use of the word "Aryan" that the Nazi's adopted comes directly from Blavatsky's work. She outlines 7 "super" races of the ancient past, the Atlanteans, Aryans and others who had various supoerhuman powers, psyhic powers and stuff like that and explains how they lost all of that due to interbreeding and stuff. The Nazi "superman" is taken directly out of Blavatsky's work. The basis for their eugenics program was also an attempt to put into practice Blavatsky's theories."


***HELENA BLAVATSKY'S works, including the SECRET DOCTRINE...while outlining the black magicians who UNNATURALLY AND DEMONICALLY tried to create "superman" races while in Atlantis ages ago...were part of what eventually became known as an Aryan race...whose descendents were more-or-less described in the first quote...but Blavatsky - being a "white" magicican as opposed to a "black" one (and I don't use the words to denote skin color - but rather moral character)....SHE OPPOSED RASCISM OF ANY KIND.

And her occult knowledge was co-opted by the Nazi's...as was their habit with any occult or mystical teaching and teachers.

And getting back to the original question posed in the first post of this thread
about the meaning of the swastika:

The cross within a circle symbolizes the breaking up of the ONE (God) into the many (seemingly) at the dawn of every new world period...the circle by itself representing the ONE (as the first manifestation within the visible, material universe)...

and the cross by itself is the male and the female breakup of the ONE into the many. (I say seemingly because this is an ACT OF CREATION BY THE ABSOLUTE...and the universe is a "reflection" of GOD...and not God - the Absolute...itself).

(These are the real teachings of Blavatsky - clearly very different than the Nazi ideology that will be outlined later in this post).


And then the two sexes begin the SPINNING OF THE WHEEL OF LIFE as we know it within the universe of matter...spinning in a COUNTER CLOCKWISE DIRECTION ...which symbolizes LIFE.


BUT HITLER'S NAZI SWASTIKA reversed the direction of the spinning wheel: symbolizing DEATH AND DESTRUCTION.

(So if you imagine a cross with extra lines at each point at a 90 degree angle to the lines that form the cross - but each extra set of lines pointing toward a move in a counter clockwise direction - that's the true ancient swastika symbol).

The demonic intelligence that Hitler invited into his already vile human soul wanted to kill off, destroy, and/or enslave any other "race" of men other than it's own - based upon blood lines. This is the essence of Black Magic at it's most evil...the demonic aspect of the lower human mind...(as opposed to the divine spiritual mind within the reach potentially of every man)...

and so the demonic lower degenerate consciouness and "will" within certain men sought to overturn it's natural position in the universe - it (he) would "BECOME".....GOD - THE ABSOLUTE, SUPREME SPIRIT...(insteading of becoming one with the Divine Laws and reach conscious Godhood (as a true "son" of God...) through acts that are in harmony with the laws of LIFE (ie.- and murder in order to "rule" is obviously not in harmony with God's laws - regardless of what religion one follows)....no...the Nazi's wanted to answer to no one or anything other than their own whims, desires, lusts, and egotism. This was the plan that Hitler had for himself - and for the alleged new super "race" of men who would follow after him within the "thousand year reich".

FILTH.

[Chief Fox]

BUT HITLER'S NAZI SWASTIKA reversed the direction...symbolizing DEATH AND DESTRUCTION.

His swastika had the wheels going the other way.
Hitler didn't change the symbol at all. He took an existing symbol that was internationally recognized as a symbol for good luck and purposely associated it with his regime.

Yes he was evil and disturbed BUT the guy knew his marketing.

Symbol for good luck: http://www.luckymojo.com/swastika.html

Nazi symbol: http://www.hcc.mnscu.edu/programs/dept/chem/abomb/page_id_75722.html

[CFT]

BUT HITLER'S NAZI SWASTIKA [B]reversed the direction of the spinning wheel: symbolizing DEATH AND DESTRUCTION.There are both left and right facing versions of the swastika.

Look at this again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

[David Jamieson]

yes the swastika can be seen from back or front and it will show one way or the other depending on how you view it.

Hitler did tilt the swastika in his nazi symbol version.

If you look at the official nazi swastika, you'll see it is tilted where all the others, are not. That's the difference in how it is shown.

anybody know the ideas associated with the swastika to the nazis? why did they choose it? what did it represent to them? I don't think we've touched on that here.

[omarthefish]

Yeah. The Natzi swastica went through quite a few transformations and I have heard that thing about him reversing the direction and all before and as it has already been pointed out, that is complete bunk.

Hitler didn't even pick the swastica as the official symbol. He had a "minister of the occult" to do that sort of thing. I'm handicapped by being an ocean and half a continent between me and my books on this but that guy who kind of went nuts and flew a small plane across the English channel basically delivering himself into the hands of the British? Anyone remember that guys name? Goebbels ? He was the one standardizing Natzi symbolism and paraphenelia. The use of the swastica as a Natzi emblem predates Hitler as a Natzi symbol. You should look into some of the clashes that happened when Hitlre decided to get rid of the stormtroopers in favor of his more elite "SS" forces. The strormtroopers were the "brownshirts" I think they were calling them and were more like todays skinheads. Working class and undereducated .
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In other news:

Guido Von List - http://experts.about.com/e/g/gu/Guido_von_List.htm

He was a prominant disciple of Blavatski. From the link above:


List’s influence continued to grow after the official founding of the Guido-von-List-Gesellschaft on March 02nd, 1908. From 1908 through to 1912, new members included .....[really long list of prominant political figures].....

....As the list demonstrates, the growth of nationalism within Germany during the
late 19th-early 20th century, culminating in the Third Reich of Nazi Germany as a grotesque and highly extreme extent of the growth, provided an ideal audience of people who were already predisposed to accept List's ideas and unidentifiable personal gnosis of the Armanen way.

Similar information here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guido-von-List-Gesellschaft

The other name that you need to look into is J&#246;rg Lanz von Liebenfels
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J&#246;rg_Lanz_von_Liebenfels

But the real prize (other than List) is Dietrich Eckart who is IMO the guy who was responsable for bringing Hitler into the fold and mentoring him into the "man" he was to become.


"Follow Hitler! He will dance, but it is I who have called the tune!"

-Dietrich Eckart

http://www.intelinet.org/swastika/swasti08.htm

Just google any of the names I have given you guys and pick an article. Then the other side of my "grudge" against Blavatski is that aside from just making up here whole story out of whole cloth, claiming lineage from some Tibetans in the late 19th century even thought she shows no evidence of speaking the language OR haveing any particular grasp of Tibetan Buddism, is that you can't find anything GOOD to have come from her teachings. I can present this huge laundry list of really evil dudes who just fell in love with her work but can't find ANYTHING positive to have come of it. So regardless of here professes anti-racism (hard to believe such a thing in a time before we even thought in those terms really) her work just happens to be REALLY REALLY good for creating eitehr satanic or simply inhuman theosophical constructs.

My case against modern day neo-paganism is much weaker. I also find it more innocent, less offensive etc but basically just because I believe most of the practitioners don't really know what they are doing and have honestly good intentions. But the structure is the same as the nastier stuff just with less malicious intent. In my personal experience it's just ritual magik for girls. The only historical links I can find that are continuous to the present also come from the turn of the century German mystic revival. The popular religion created by the Natzis for the uninitiated, the common folk of Germany at the time was basically what today passes for Wicca.

Just had to add that this site:

http://www.intelinet.org/swastika/swascont.htm

is full of gems.

[David Jamieson]

The guy you're talking about is Rudolph Hess.

His mission was to make certain that the british understood that it was in the best interest of the german state and the british empire to not have conflict in the coming war.

Hess flew over and was subsequently shot down over scotland.
He was imprisoned for teh duration of the war and afterwards was locked up in spandau until his death in the 90's.

he was never allowed to reveal what his mission was, not allowed to speak to the press and more or less tucked away in a dungeon until his demise, supposedly by suicide, although, the method of his death outweighed his ability to do it. But that's another matter.

there were plansd for 'peace in our time' between the british and the nazis under neville chamberlains great blundering plan.

The fact that Hess was never allowed to reveal his mission and took it to his grave is enough for one to raise an eyebrow about that short but likely important story in the beginnings of ww2.

Had there been an anglo-aryan empire as was the plan of hitler and for that matter the sitting king at the time edward the 7th, the whole world as we know it now would be different i would think.

edward the 7th officially abdicated his throne for the reasons of wanting to marry a commoner.

what is less revealed is that edward was a nazi sympathizer who was close friends of the hitlerian regime and it's upper circle. It could be said he himself was a nazi.

Churchill more than likely forced the abdication. Let's also not forget that the current royal family is indeed german and of the house of sax coburg and that the name windsor was created so as to not confuse the people of britain with the fact that their king and queen were germans.

and still are of teh sax coburg line by the way.


in short, what we are told as commoners is most certainly not the truth as to what is really going on in the upper echelons of the power elite who run teh countries and politics we live under.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Just google any of the names I have given you guys and pick an article. Then the other side of my "grudge" against Blavatski is that aside from just making up here whole story out of whole cloth, claiming lineage from some Tibetans in the late 19th century even thought she shows no evidence of speaking the language OR haveing any particular grasp of Tibetan Buddism, is that you can't find anything GOOD to have come from her teachings. I can present this huge laundry list of really evil dudes who just fell in love with her work but can't find ANYTHING positive to have come of it. So regardless of here professes anti-racism (hard to believe such a thing in a time before we even thought in those terms really) her work just happens to be REALLY REALLY good for creating eitehr satanic or simply inhuman theosophical constructs." (omarthefish)


***I WAS A STUDENT AND A LECTURER at the United Lodge of Theosophists here in NYC for 19 years (1979-1998)...an association dedicated to the study and promulgation of Helena's Blavatsky's writings (and those of her closest associate, William Q. Judge)...

And there is absolutely nothing within her writings that is rascist ideology. Won't get into a any giant discussion with you here about the authenticity of her teachings and writings (she didbn't invent anything)...

because such a debate would get off he track of this thread.

Suffice it to say that she was the complete antithesis of rascist thinking - as can be gleaned from any serious investigation of her books and articles.

[omarthefish]

The guy you're talking about is Rudolph Hess....

Thanks.

Ultimatewingchun,

Even if she was a regular mother Theresa in her own life, "The Secret Doctrine" has had all the results I described.


And there is absolutely nothing within her writings that is rascist ideology.

Except of course for her claim that humanity is devolved from 7 "super races" that once had super powers but lost them due to interbreeding and her other cetegorization of said races into seperior and inferior categories.



.... - as can be gleaned from any serious investigation of her books and articles.

I suppose I didn't do a "serious investigation". I was happy to just pick up "The Secret Doctrine" off the book shelf and start reading it.


...an association dedicated to the study and promulgation of Helena's Blavatsky's writings (and those of her closest associate, William Q. Judge)...

Good. That makes it easy to see where you stand. I like people to have their agendas up front like that.

[David Jamieson]

just as an aside for anyone who would like to peruse teh secret doctrine of blavatsky and decide what it is for themselves.

http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd-hp.htm

[puma]

Guys this is some great stuff..keep up the good work
I am really learning a lot from all of this
I've always associated the swaztika with evil because of
Hitlers perversion of the symbol and what i learned in history
books at school,but when i seen the symbol used in kung fu
movies i really became confused about the symbol and why the
chinese would use it
I even read that Hitler was jewish and a striving artist....man...what an idiot
Anyway..keep up the good work

[SimonM]

Hitler was a painter. His paintings sucked major donkey balls; I have seen slides of them.

[Ultimatewingchun]

And your agenda, omarthefish...clearly includes a FALSE representation of the writings of H.P. Blavatsky for God-knows-what reason ...by picking and choosing certain phrases and sentences taken out of context in order to portray her as a rascist - which she was not.

But as I'm not home right now - I'll have to wait to post some of her writings in depth from my library of her books and articles....which will expose the foolishness of your opinions about her.

As for the fact that you mention some scoundrels who took her writings and turned them upside down - shall I now start to post the numerous famous names of people who understood and accepted her writings...ie.- Abner Doubleday (founder of baseball) , Albert Einstein (who kept a copy of the Secret Doctrine on his desk)..Colonel Henry S. Olcott (American Civil War hero in the Union army)..to name just three people?

[omarthefish]

Wether my assertions are false or not are easy enough now that the info's all up there. Jamie Davidson has done us the HUGE favor of posting an online link of the entire book. Thanks to the marvels of Firefox plugins I dowloaded the whole thing in about 2 clicks.

Go ahead though. Please present a list of nice people who read the book. I had a copy on my desk too.

Gotta wonder about that Einstein reference since he's never been on record as rejecting his Jewish roots. Also never seen any references to him actually basing any of his work on her stuff. Just owning the book does not make you a supporter.

The Thule Society is about as evil as it gets.


And your agenda, omarthefish...clearly includes a FALSE representation of the writings of H.P. Blavatsky for God-knows-what reason ...

Have been nothing more than forthright about my agenda with regard to this stuff. I said right from the beggining that I considered this stuff to only range from outright satanic to simply ignorant people playing with fire.

Blavatsky's work has no historical basis whatsoever. There is no confirmation of any of the information she presents coming from any other religious tradition. It is right up there with explanations of the bible based on alien visitation 10000 years ago and now that the book is up there online anyone who cares to can go ahead and decide for themselves. When I have time, probably not untill the weekend, I will try and dig up the stuff which always gets seized on by others and used for their racist propoganda.

It is my belief that Blavatsky was not herself a nasty person but the results of her work speak volumes of why you don't mess around with that stuff outside of a legitimate esoteric tradition. It's lies lies lies and nothing good ever comes of that.

[jethro]

On a documentary I saw Hitler believed that he was of the forgotten race of atlantis. He read a lot of stories on how an ice crystal was shot down from space that contained the last living seed of atlantis. Because he believed that this was the dominant race, he obsiously wanted everyone to be of this race. I've read a book called the Last Queen of Atlantis, it;s part of a series of 3 or 4 books by the same author, this book really gave me an idea of how crazy Hitler was to base his theories on books like this, don't get me wrong it's a good read, but only on a fictional point of view.

Also look for the swastika on Kam Kong in Master of the flying thing.

[omarthefish]

On a documentary I saw Hitler believed that he was of the forgotten race of atlantis.

That's based on Blavatski's theories. I think they got it slightly wrong though. I'm foggy on it as I haven't read that stuff in years but I remember the Atlanteans and the Aryans as being different races. I really need to browse the book again.

Atlaneans
Aryans
Lemurian
....?

There were 7 in all.

[jethro]

this documentary did have a lot of info one her, and I agree with you that blavatsky's stuff needs to be read with a closed mind, don't let any of that stuff get into your head. I disagree that she was not a bad person just by the fact that these opinions came from her and she almost destroyed the world, then god would have wiped us all out and started over.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Gotta wonder about that Einstein reference since he's never been on record as rejecting his Jewish roots." (omarthefish)


***TOTAL NONSENSE...as she would never have rejected anybody's roots. The Einstein reference comes form his daughter - who confirmed that he was so impressed with the Secret Doctrine that he kept a copy of it on his desk at all times.

I'm going to post exerpts from that book and from some of her other works that will clearly show that you have no clue as to what her writings were really all about....

as her writings were enormous....2 different 1400 page books...several 200-250 page books....and countless articles....


and over and over again she outlines her thoughts about the BROTHERHOOD OF MAN.


Let me just give a hint at what's coming - here are the three Goals of the Theosophical movement - as it was constituted when Blavatsky started the original Theosophical Society in 1875 - right here in NYC.

1) To form a nucleus of the Brotherhood of Humanity, without any distinctions based upon race, creed, sex, nationality, or condition.

2) The study of ancient and modern religions, philosophies, and sciences, and the demonstration of the importance of such study.

3) The investigation of the unexplained laws of nature, and the psychical powers latent in man.

[SimonM]

I have a copy of the bible on my desk. I am very impressed by the bible. I'm not christian in the slightest. It's still an impressive book.

I have a copy of Beowulf on my desk. I am very impressed with Beowulf. I don't, however, believe in the martial application of ripping the arms off of trolls.

Though now that I say it that does sound like a good idea. Hey Gene what is forum policy on ripping limbs off of trolls?

[omarthefish]

lol. Awsome.

Great multicontextual pun.


1) To form a nucleus of the Brotherhood of Humanity, without any distinctions based upon race, creed, sex, nationality, or condition.

2) The study of ancient and modern religions, philosophies, and sciences, and the demonstration of the importance of such study.

3) The investigation of the unexplained laws of nature, and the psychical powers latent in man.

I'm not so interested in the goals as in what actually were the results.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I'm not so interested in the goals as in what actually were the results." (omarthefish)


***SO BY THAT LOGIC...since so much of Jesus Christ's teachings were polluted by various "alleged" religious Christians....therefore Jesus was no good? And the same for the prophet Mohammad...? Because a maniac like Osama Bin Laden has perverted the true teaching of Mohammad (and Islam)...we should blame Mohammad?


Here is an exerpt from Helena Blavatsky's book, THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY...the ENQ. means "enquirer"...the one asking the questions of...THEO. (which stands for the theosophist answering the enquirer's questions. (In fact, the format within which the book was written was actually Blavatsky posing questions (ENQ.) and then Blavatsky answers them (THEO.)

In this exerpt about the nature of the ABSOLUTE (GOD)...she refers admiringly to the works of the JEWISH KABALA ....(oh yeah...she was an anti-Semite. LOL.):rolleyes:


ENQ. Stop! Omniscience is the prerogative of something that thinks, and you deny to your Absoluteness the power of thought.

THEO. We deny it to the ABSOLUTE, since thought is something limited and conditioned. But you evidently forget that in philosophy absolute unconsciousness is also absolute consciousness, as otherwise it would not be absolute.

ENQ. Then your Absolute thinks ?

THEO. No, IT does not; for the simple reason that it is Absolute Thought itself. Nor does it exist, for the same reason, as it is absolute existence, and Be-ness, not a Being. Read the superb Kabalistic poem by Solomon Ben Jehudah Gabirol, in the Kether-Malchut, and you will understand :

—" Thou art one, the root of all numbers, but not as an element of numeration ; for unity admits not of multiplication, change, or form. Thou art one, and in the secret of Thy unity the wisest of men are lost, because they know it not. Thou art one, and Thy unity is never diminished, never extended, and cannot be changed. Thou art one, and no thought of mine can fix for Thee a limit, or define Thee. Thou ART, but not as one existent, for the understanding and vision of mortals cannot attain to Thy existence, nor determine for Thee the where, the how and the why," etc., etc.

In short, our Deity is the eternal, incessantly evolving, not creating, builder of the universe ; that universe itself unfolding out of its own essence, not being made. It is a sphere, without circumference, in its symbolism, which has but one ever-acting attribute embracing all other existing or thinkable attributes—ITSELF. It is the one law, giving the impulse to manifested, eternal, and immutable laws, within that never-manifesting, because absolute LAW, which in its manifesting periods is The ever-Becoming.

(Page 65)

And needless to say, being the believer in UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD that she was....she also quotes from the teachings of Jesus Christ, from Buddha, from Krishna, from Lao Tsu, from Plato, and countless other great teachers down through history.

[omarthefish]

"I'm not so interested in the goals as in what actually were the results." (omarthefish)


***SO BY THAT LOGIC...since so much of Jesus Christ's teachings were polluted by various "alleged" religious Christians....therefore Jesus was no good? And the same for the prophet Mohammad...? Because a maniac like Osama Bin Laden has perverted the true teaching of Mohammad (and Islam)...we should blame Mohammad?


No. I can point to endless lists of the good that those traditions have done, the saints, the everyday people and then you can find bad examples as well. With Blavatski it's pretty much all been poisoned fruit. The Thule society is not the exception to the rule. It's the rule.



And needless to say, being the believer in UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD that she was....she also quotes from the teachings of Jesus Christ, from Buddha, from Krishna, from Lao Tsu, from Plato, and countless other great teachers down through history.

Yes. That's why she's considered a heretic.


In this exerpt about the nature of the ABSOLUTE (GOD)...she refers admiringly to the works of the JEWISH KABALA ....(oh yeah...she was an anti-Semite. LOL.)


I didn't say she was an anti-semite. I said that her work laid out the framework for what was to come later. I repeat:

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

It is truly tragic the kind of damage her kind of irresponsable nonesense can cause in the world. She is a brilliant example of why the rules are so strict on who is or is not qualified to study kabala.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"It is truly tragic the kind of damage her kind of irresponsable nonesense can cause in the world." (omerthefish)


***NO POINT IN GOING ON with this conversation....you clearly either have no clue about the TRUTH inherent in her writings and teachings or you have some hidden agenda of your own that must include trying to belittle one of the modern era's most brilliant writers.


Either way: It's you who is pedaling nonsense.

Later.

[jethro]

"It is truly tragic the kind of damage her kind of irresponsable nonesense can cause in the world." (omerthefish)


***NO POINT IN GOING ON with this conversation....you clearly either have no clue about the TRUTH inherent in her writings and teachings or you have some hidden agenda of your own that must include trying to belittle one of the modern era's most brilliant writers.


Either way: It's you who is pedaling nonsense.

Later.
I don't see anyone arguing with whether or not she was brilliant, but the destruction that came of her writings will always be recognized whether people like you decide to acknowledge it or not.

[omarthefish]

When omarthefish talks of her as being a heretic because she knew and understood and EXPOUNDED UPON the connections between all the great religions - the he tips his hand!!!

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=heretic

I'm pretty sure I used the term correctly and accurately. Did Blavatsky have the support of the Roman Catholic church? Does any religious movement that's not based on her writings support here?


....And the fact that she understood the real history of civiliations like Atlantis and Lemuria before that....

The "real" history?

How can you understand the real history of a bunch of made up legends? Go ahead, expond upon the 7 races. Tell the crowd the "real" history of the world. lol. Tell us about their superpowers.


***NO POINT IN GOING ON with this conversation....you clearly either have no clue about the TRUTH inherent in her writings and teachings or you have some hidden agenda of your own that must include trying to belittle one of the modern era's most brilliant writers.


What is it about you nutcases that see conspiracies everywhere? My agenda is right out in front. I have been completely honest about it. Maybe you need bold print. I think Blavatski was a nut and needs to be discredited wherever she is talked about because her teachings are dangerous. It's not a hidden agenda. It's blatant. I'm not embarrased by it. It's the occultists that always need to work in the shadows and who are compelled to encode everything in secret signs and symbols. That makes it more easier to hide the truth about where the teachings lead. In contrast, a legitimate esoteric tradition leads you to the same place it advertises. As you dig deeper, you still find all sorts of hidden meanings and secret messages but they only reinforce what was presented on the exoteric level.

[Ultimatewingchun]

""With Blavatski it's pretty much all been poisoned fruit. The Thule society is not the exception to the rule. It's the rule." (omarthefish)


***BULL.

You can't blame Blavatsky for the Thule society, or for Hitler, or the Nazi's...or anything else. And the good that has been done is reflected in countless lodges, societies, and organizations around the world for over 130 years now dedicated to the 3 OBJECTIVES of the Theosophical Movement...whose accomplishments include the liberation of the Indians from England's rule - a direct result of the Theosophical movement.

And the NEW AGE movements in the West - including the GREEN MOVEMENT...as in the initial movement to oppose things like Global Warming...and the civil rights movement in the 1960s...

and the OCCULT opposition to Hitler lead by Rudolf Steiner....(Who's Rudolf Steiner, you ask? The man Hitler feared the most because Steiner's astral sight saw evrything Hitler was up to even when plans were being made behind closed doors)...

What does this all mean?

Quite simply, more than anything else Theosophy is about occult (or hidden forces) that drive civilizations spiritually on planes of being that omar and the boys cleary don't understand or want to understand.

SO BLAMING BLAVATSKY FOR THOSE WHO TWISTED HER TEACHINGS IS ABSURD.

And those who blame her are either ignorant of the facts or they have some other agenda that her writings must obviously be opposed to.

When omarthefish talks of her as being a heretic because she knew and understood and EXPOUNDED UPON the connections between all the great religions - then he tips his hand!!!

He says that she's a heretic. Heretic in whose eyes? The Catholic Church? So what!!!
The Catholic Church lost it's way centuries ago.

And the fact that she understood the real history of civiliations like Atlantis and Lemuria before that (the same with Plato, btw)..doesn't mean she made anything up...and doesn't mean that she preached any kind of rascism.

But I see where all of this is going - and there's always the problem of "casting your pearls before swine" when dealing with occult truths about history and about real spiritual advancement....so I'm finished with this thread.

You guys are on your own. I came on here to defend Blavatsky's good name and perhaps to throw some light on a dark subject: Nazism.

[omarthefish]

How'd you do that?

Is that part of your occult practice? You moved the post I quoted to AFTER my post....waitasec. That makes ME the occultist. I quoted you before you had even said it!

Or....you deleted the post, edited it and reposted it after I posted mine.

Take a look, my post #79 is in response to your post #80. :confused:

Looks like you deleted your post as the part where you said:


***NO POINT IN GOING ON with this conversation....you clearly either have no clue about the TRUTH inherent in her writings and teachings or you have some hidden agenda of your own that must include trying to belittle one of the modern era's most brilliant writers.

is now gone.

At least you can still see this part up there:

***NO POINT IN GOING ON with this conversation....you clearly either have no clue about the TRUTH inherent in her writings and teachings or you have some hidden agenda of your own that must include trying to belittle one of the modern era's most brilliant writers.

that I quoted BEFORE you put up your current post.

Why didn't you just edit the original post? Why go through the trouble of cut and pasting it into a new post and mess up the continuity of the thread? Why get all sneaky like that?

[Ultimatewingchun]

I was in the middle of amending my post somewhat (adding some points) when I realized that you had already responded to the first draft (you must have come on as I was writing)...so I deleted and reposted.

In any event: I'm done with this thread.

[omarthefish]

alrighty then.

[FuXnDajenariht]

oy vey....


well the theosophists i've seen and talked to were nice and intelligent people. thats all i can go by. i wouldn't call myself one but i've read up enough about it, as i have about eastern religion too, to have my own opinion that it has sumthin worthwhile apart from all the fantastical things that are claimed. i don't know where all this evil cult stuff is about but ive visited some boards from different lodges and they seem like rational sane people to me, just searching for sum answers. just like any buddhist or hindu or daoist. all these things can be distorted by the wrong person, but from what i understand the spiritual path is a personal thing. its not possible for sumone to hold your hand and everyone is responsible for their own success or failures. at the end of the day all any religous philosophy worth the paper its written can do is give you hints and warnings to somewhat guide you, and hammer it in your head to take everything with a grain of salt. to investigate things on your own. no matter if god himself comes down and tells you otherwise.

[omarthefish]

That's totally true and that has been my experience too.

Now here's the thing,

Esoteric training is inherently dangerous.

http://www.jrf.org/pirke-avot/chap4-footnotes.htm


.....they entered, legend says, into the paradise of esoteric knowledge. "Four (sages)," we are told, "entered paradise, ben Azzai, ben Zoma, Acher, and Akiba. Ben Azzai looked and died; ben Zoma went mad; Acher destroyed the plants; Akiba alone came out unhurt" (Chagigah, 14b). The interpretation of this passage is that ben Azzai died prematurely, worn out by his activities in mystical and theosophic speculation; ben Zoma became demented thereby; Elisha, contemptuously referred to as Acher (the other), became an apostate; but Akiba was unaffected. .....

Likewise, the Chinese have a proverb "zou huo ru mo" (走火入魔) which basically means, "mess around with esoteric traditions and go looney".

If the traditions were whacko on the surface they wouldn't really be dangerous. The Adversary is called the "prince of lies" because he is so deceptive. He plays on human weakness especially pride. The pride in ones own intellect is the easiest. People think they can "handle it" and that you are being silly with all those superstitious warnings.

The Adversary is also traditionally the most beautiful of all the angels. He tempted eve who was supposed to be essentially a perfected being. Adam was fooled before the fall.

To make another analogy, why is it that cigarrettes kill so many more people than crack? The real evil in the world, the stuff that is actually dangerous and corrosive is like ciggarettes not like crack. It has a stylish face and really takes decades of serious research to reveal how it weakens people. It's seductive in the way REAL bad choices are seductive. I WISH it was as simple as it is in the movies. So much easier to counter that way.

[SimonM]

.whose accomplishments include the liberation of the Indians from England's rule - a direct result of the Theosophical movement.

Um... proof?

Last I heard Ghandi was not a Theosophist. He was a Hindu.

[SimonM]

Quite simply, more than anything else Theosophy is about occult (or hidden forces) that drive civilizations spiritually on planes of being that omar and the boys cleary don't understand or want to understand.


I've studied a lot of occult traditions in my time. I've studied the brits, the muslims, the hindus, the chinese, whatever. And after involved study I've come to the position that there are no hidden forces driving civilization. Just a lot of people who happen to be wired up the same way because we are all the same species regardless of our culture, religion or colour. No secret masters, no gods, no old ones, just wonderful, crazy, fallable, beautiful people.

I really gotta avoid posting when I'm drunk...

[SimonM]

Likewise, the Chinese have a proverb "zou huo ru mo" (走火入魔) which basically means, "mess around with esoteric traditions and go looney".
.

ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D

[Billy]

Likewise, the Chinese have a proverb "zou huo ru mo" (走火入魔) which basically means, "mess around with esoteric traditions and go looney".


Everything depends on your perspective.

I would bet a moron or a retard would call a normal person "Looney"

I woud bet a normal person would call a spiritually elevated person "Looney"


People always insult those that are better than they are. If someone is smarter than you are, or more spiritually elevated than you are, and you do not understand them, are they looney? Or are you mentally deficient?

[David Jamieson]

Everything depends on your perspective.

I would bet a moron or a retard would call a normal person "Looney"

I woud bet a normal person would call a spiritually elevated person "Looney"


People always insult those that are better than they are. If someone is smarter than you are, or more spiritually elevated than you are, and you do not understand them, are they looney? Or are you mentally deficient?

I think you're making assumptions here.
People do not 'always' insult people who show superiority in a skill or a bility. UNless of course those people are bitter and small minded. :p

Morons or retarded people don't do analysis of the social mores as far as I know, that's why they are morons. As for retarded people, that is a handicap and I'm pretty sure they don't cast disparaging eyes on so called normal folks.

People who are spiritually elevated are fine, however, someone who wants to sell you spiritual elevation and regulate or control your thoughts as to what that is based on their personal agenda...yep, they're looney. BUt say a lama monk? Why would anyone insult someone for trying to find a way to make peace within themselves. Or a christian monk, or a new age meditator or any of them. It is when the dog and pony show is attached to spiritualism that it loses credibility and gains culpability in its aim to twist minds.

Much depends on perspective it is true, but principles or known truths are just that. If you understand the principle, then when someone steps outside the boundaries, there is no cause for alarm when someone notes that there is an inconsistency occuring.

Seances the occult and spirituality were all the rage in the victorian era and right up until now today still have strong followings from all walks of life. Blvatsky came to arise in a time when people were open to all sorts of things due to the repressive society they lived in. They longed for change and teh fanatsy worlds generated by teh likes of Blavatsky and Cayce and their ilk were just the tonice for these bored and stuffy sexually repressed people of that time.

Nowadays, people yearn for some magic to occur, a miracle that will make everything all right in teh world.

The problem with jo jo psychic alliance thinking is that it immediately takes the onus off of you for how you can in relaity contribute to making your life better and instead shifts the focus of that responsibility to the fates and what the psychic tells you. THis is a gross misrepresentation of the message and it is given up ones own power and handing it to another to solve their problems for them. THis act, in and of itself is foolishness for the most part.

[jethro]

I will go ahead and forward my thoughts to you, then you can rework them and post it in my name, thank you.

[omarthefish]

Everything depends on your perspective.

I would bet a moron or a retard would call a normal person "Looney"

I woud bet a normal person would call a spiritually elevated person "Looney"


People always insult those that are better than they are. If someone is smarter than you are, or more spiritually elevated than you are, and you do not understand them, are they looney? Or are you mentally deficient?

You completely misunderstood the proverb.

First of all, understand that I was translating a well known proverb in Chinese fairly humourously because the thing doesn't translate well. Literally the proverb says:

Walk through fire and enter into the devil.

It is not a phrase typically used by the uninitiated to scorn those who partake in esoteric practices. It is a saying used more by teachers to describe the tragedy of a seeker gone astray. It is also commonly used in movies and novels to describe how the main villian was once really a decent guy but due to his arcane gong fu practices or qi gong or whatver, while succeding in making himself really powerfull.....he also went nuts. It's not an insult so much as a term for training gone bad.

It's just that over the centuries in China, they observed enough people going nuts from magikal practices that they coined a saying. "Walk through fire" means "practice magic". "Enter the devil" means "go crazy" and not in a a Sufic extatic way but more like in a David Koresh kind of way".

[SimonM]

The reason that religions tend to be simmilar is because they all have one common denominator... they were invented by people.

We can forgive Blavatsky for not understanding that archetypical responses to sensory datum tend to create similar myth constructs since she predated Jung and Campbell but really... why do people adhere to these outmoded "secret conspiracy" myths...

Oh wait! I remember... people like myths.

Plato invented Atlantis as a metaphor. It never was a real place. Sorry.:D

[SimonM]

Walk through fire and enter into the devil.

It is not a phrase typically used by the uninitiated to scorn those who partake in esoteric practices. It is a saying used more by teachers to describe the tragedy of a seeker gone astray. It is also commonly used in movies and novels to describe how the main villian was once really a decent guy but due to his arcane gong fu practices or qi gong or whatver, while succeding in making himself really powerfull.....he also went nuts. It's not an insult so much as a term for training gone bad.


Momentary hijack to say that Legend of the Swordsman II is a good movie.

[omarthefish]

Not a highjack.

Good example of "zou huo ru mo" as used in popular culture. The guy with the crazy "blood sucking fu" was definately there. Something about hanging on meathooks in a pit for 20 years or so. I'm tempted to say that Briggette Lynn was nuts too but since in the context of the whole series she is actually the hero and supposed to be kind of a tragic figure I'm saying no.

You did reallize "she" was supposed to be a he right? It doesn't come through well in the subtitles. Apparently "her" esoteric practice included cutting off her nuts and becoming a unic. I tend to repress that plot detail since Brigette Lynn is so hot and I'd rather not thing of myself as having a thing for unics. (spelling?)

Anyways:


....not understanding that archetypical responses to sensory datum tend to create similar myth constructs....

Dude! Well put.

I was just dodging the issue a bit because I couldn't figure out how to explain it so succinctly but THAT in a nutshell IS, IMO, what's "wrong" with her work. It's like some sort of very high tech psychology. Really complicated and subtle but in the end.....

[SimonM]

The way it came through in my subtitled version "she" had been "he" and was slowly transforming into a "she" by the same process that gave him/her his/hers incredible gong fu abilities but was in a state of rather complicated gender-flux throughout the movie... Juxtaposed against the girl who despite her desire to be seen as a woman was generally observed as "just one of the guys" both vis a vis the romantic attentions of Jet's drunkard character.

But, yeah, I was thinking of Mr. Meathooks.

As for the other stuff...

I studied Campbell, Levi-Strauss (and those who came after them) heavily both in art school and later in the english components of my university education and I learned Jung on my pappy's knee...

He's a life-long Jungian.

[jethro]

The way it came through in my subtitled version "she" had been "he" and was slowly transforming into a "she" by the same process that gave him/her his/hers incredible gong fu abilities but was in a state of rather complicated gender-flux throughout the movie... Juxtaposed against the girl who despite her desire to be seen as a woman was generally observed as "just one of the guys" both vis a vis the romantic attentions of Jet's drunkard character.

But, yeah, I was thinking of Mr. Meathooks.

As for the other stuff...

I studied Campbell, Levi-Strauss (and those who came after them) heavily both in art school and later in the english components of my university education and I learned Jung on my pappy's knee...

He's a life-long Jungian.



Have you guys scene swordsman 1 and 3 or just 2, because I will watch brigitte anything and 2 was definitely something that I will try to find out the rest of the story of cause it was weird.

[SimonM]

Sorry, no, but if anyone has the names in mandarin (pinyin for preference) I'll see if I can track them down and then tell you what I think.

[omarthefish]

All 3 movies in Chinese are called "Dong Fang Bu Bai"( 东方不败) parts 1, 2 and 3.

[SimonM]

Thanks. :D :D :D

[GeneChing]

Japanese government recommends changing Buddhist temple mark on maps to avoid Nazi connotations (http://en.rocketnews24.com/2016/01/15/japanese-government-recommends-changing-buddhist-temple-mark-on-maps-to-avoid-nazi-connotations/)
Casey Baseel18 hours ago

https://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/mm-0.png?w=580&h=450
Use of Swastika-like maji symbol deemed “inappropriate” for maps for foreign users.

In an effort to make travelling in Japan more convenient for overseas visitors, the Geospatial Information Authority recently conducted a survey of foreigners on the streets of Asakusa, the historical district of Tokyo that’s one of the city’s largest draws for travelers from abroad. In particular, the GSI, as the government organization is also called, wanted to pick the brains of non-Japanese people on the symbols and pictograms used on foreign-language maps in Japan.

Based on participants’ responses, the GSI is suggesting a number of changes to maps being produced for foreigners in the upcoming fiscal year (which begins in April). For example, the organization is cautioning against using a capital H to designate the location of hotels, since some might mistake the letter as an abbreviation for “hospital.” Instead, the GSI suggests a pictogram of a bed. And while every Japanese native knows that 〒 on a map means there’s a post office there, foreigners aren’t likely to be familiar with the symbol that can be found on Japanese mailboxes, and so the GSI would prefer mapmakers use the more universally intuitive picture of an envelope.

On the other hand, some traditional Japanese symbols were found to present no particular problems for foreign users. The “onsen mark,” three squiggly lines of steam rising out of a round body of water, was widely understood to denote a hot spring. Likewise, most foreigners could suss out that a drawing of a torii gate represented a Shinto shrine, thanks to the distinctive shape of the entrance to their grounds.

▼ No problems here.

https://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/mm-1.png?w=580&h=335

But one symbol was found to have extremely different connotations for Japanese and foreign map users: the manji.

https://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/mm-2.png?w=580&h=462

The manji clearly indicates a Buddhist temple, at least for those up on their Buddhist iconography (the symbol is also used in Hinduism and Jainism). But to many westerners who don’t have much occasion to come into contact with Asian religions, the first thing they’ll think of when seeing a manji is the Swastika used by Nazi Germany.

In the manji’s defense, the symbol had been used as a religious icon for centuries before the Nazis took a shining to it. Also, in Japan the manji is always drawn with its prongs turning counter-clockwise, as opposed to the Nazi Swastika’s clockwise twists.

Nevertheless, Japan’s Geospatial Information Authority has deemed that the manji is ill-suited to foreign-language maps, and is instead suggesting that it be replaced with a drawing of a three-story pagoda.

https://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/mm-3.png?w=580&h=283

To clarify, the GSI isn’t asking Buddhist temples in Japan to remove manji symbols from their premises, nor is it asking for changes to be made to Japanese-language maps. And while the organization did refer to the manji as “inappropriate” for foreign-language maps in its newest set of guidelines, it didn’t specify whether that judgement was based on the potential to offend sensitive foreign visitors or simply the high probability of confusing them because of their lack of a mental connection between the symbol and Buddhism.

It’s worth pointing out, though, that the GSI-recommended symbol is an imperfect substitute for the manji. While honest-to-goodness pagodas are generally only found at Buddhist temples in Japan, it’s not hard to imagine someone mistaking the symbol for a simplified drawing of a castle.

So remember, if you’re a foreigner in Japan who’s on the run from enemies and looking for a stronghold, make sure to double-check with your tour guide or concierge to avoid accidentally holing up in a much less siege-worthy temple by mistake. Oh, and if you decide to start one of the most reviled political/military groups in history, please design your own logo, OK? It’ll save map makers a lot of trouble down the road.

Source: Nico Nico News via Jin
Top image: RocketNews24, Geospatial Information Authority of Japan (edited by RocketNews24)
Insert images: Geospatial Information Authority of Japan, RocketNews24

I can't find my Shaolin swastika tie clip. Alas. It's just as well, I suppose. :(

[mickey]

Greetings,

That is absolutely ridiculous. There is NOTHING wrong with that symbol. The Nazi's were so stupid that they had it in the wrong direction. Maybe, that is why they lost. It would be better to educate people about this symbol than to appease.

mickey

[Orion Paximus]

The biggest thread bump of all time

[sanjuro_ronin]

Greetings,

That is absolutely ridiculous. There is NOTHING wrong with that symbol. The Nazi's were so stupid that they had it in the wrong direction. Maybe, that is why they lost. It would be better to educate people about this symbol than to appease.

mickey

Indeed;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauwastika

9686

[sanjuro_ronin]

Gene, the threadnecromancer, Ching !

[Jimbo]

Greetings,

That is absolutely ridiculous. There is NOTHING wrong with that symbol. The Nazi's were so stupid that they had it in the wrong direction. Maybe, that is why they lost. It would be better to educate people about this symbol than to appease.

mickey

100% agreed.

Unfortunately, IMO most Westerners DON'T want to be educated about that. It's safe to say that most Westerners have a very black and white, emotional reaction (one way or the other) to the Swaztika. The idiot Nazis appropriated it, reversed it and RUINED it. Nonetheless, it's like a taboo to try educating people on the truth of the symbol. They've made up their minds, and if it makes them upset, they don't want to know.

I remember once in Taipei, walking towards a Buddhist vegetarian restaurant with a Swaztika symbol on its sign to symbolize the type of restaurant it is, and seeing a small group of American tourists on the street reacting in surprise, then kind of snickering about it. They had NO concept that it symbolized a Buddhist/vegetarian restaurant, and pointing that out to them probably wouldn't have made a difference.

[Oso]

Gene, the threadnecromancer, Ching !

he's got to earn his pay somehow ;)

[RenDaHai]

Argh!

Its an extension of the political correctness thats infecting the world at the moment.

It DESTROYS the actual mechanism of learning. You see a familiar symbol, you are confused as to why a Nazi symbol is there, you can't help but find out why. Then you learn its thousands of years old and appeared all over the world in ancient times, that Hitler was obsessed with the esoteric and stole this symbol among a great many other things. Remove the symbol and you are denied that chain of discovery. It happens every day with so many things, why remove these relics that unite us with the whole of history?

I don't think anybody actually wants to do this, I think its what some stupid people think that other people want. Such people should never be humoured.

[Kellen Bassette]

Argh!

Its an extension of the political correctness thats infecting the world at the moment.

It DESTROYS the actual mechanism of learning. You see a familiar symbol, you are confused as to why a Nazi symbol is there, you can't help but find out why. Then you learn its thousands of years old and appeared all over the world in ancient times, that Hitler was obsessed with the esoteric and stole this symbol among a great many other things. Remove the symbol and you are denied that chain of discovery. It happens every day with so many things, why remove these relics that unite us with the whole of history?

I don't think anybody actually wants to do this, I think its what some stupid people think that other people want. Such people should never be humoured.

Very well said. At it's core, political correctness embraces ignorance and outlaws productive discussion.
"It DESTROYS th actual mechanism of learning." I couldn't agree more.

[GeneChing]

El Sobrante man says giant swastika in his yard isn't the Nazi kind (https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/El-Sobrante-man-giant-swastika-sauwastika-Tibetan-13939583.php?utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=facebook.com&fbclid=IwAR0B-eSj6XD3toTkUHxCC0Py-i5k5eeCTV1TRqtzzJgnYtHXve_AUhgb3tM#photo-17616679)
Installation of hate symbol upsets neighbors
By Mike Moffitt, SFGATE Updated 5:40 pm PDT, Wednesday, June 5, 2019

https://s.hdnux.com/photos/01/03/14/74/17616679/3/920x920.jpg
The swastika in the front yard of the Steve Johnson home in El Sobrante as seen from the air. People living in the San Francisco Bay Area suburb are upset that Johnson landscaped his front yard to resemble symbol associated with the Nazi regime. (June 5, 2019.) Photo: Justin Sullivan/Getty Images

https://s.hdnux.com/photos/01/03/14/74/17616680/3/1024x1024.jpg
Steve Johnson sits on his motorcycle in front of his home where he has constructed a design in his yard that resembles a swastika on June 5, 2019 in El Sobrante.
Getty Images

In El Sobrante, a town apparently free of HOA covenants, a homeowner has redecorated his front yard in what appears to be early Third Reich.

According to reports from ABC7 and NBC Bay Area, Steven Johnson landscaped a giant swastika, the symbol of Nazi Germany, in front of his home on Lindell Drive.

The neighbors are not pleased.

Johnson insists the swastika, which is large enough to be visible from a low-altitude airliner, is not the same symbol embraced by Adolf Hitler's fascist regime and some white supremacist groups.


Embedded video (https://twitter.com/nbcbayarea/status/1136148221821161473?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1136148221821161473&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfgate.com%2Fbayarea%2** **icle%2FEl-Sobrante-man-giant-swastika-sauwastika-Tibetan-13939583.php)

NBC Bay Area
✔
@nbcbayarea
A landscaping design in the East Bay has neighbors in an uproar as an El Sobrante man carves what appears to be a massive swastika into his front yard. http://nbcbay.com/uxqkrnd

59
10:50 PM - Jun 4, 2019
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"It's a Tibetan sign that's way back before swastikas were invented," he told ABC7 reporters, who then asked him, "Are you Tibetan?"

Johnson reportedly answered, "I could be."

About that Tibetan swastika, a symbol of spirituality known as a sauwastika in Buddhist traditions — it faces the left rather than right-facing Hindu swastika, which was appropriated by the Nazis. Johnson's swastika faces right.

Maybe he just got his swastikas crossed up.

Regardless of his intentions, most of Johnson's neighbors reportedly find the symbol, which replaced a dirt yard, offensive and provocative.

Not to mention a disaster for real estate values.

"It's stupid. It kills the retail value of the house, kills the value of everyone on the street," neighbor Vince Poehnelt told ABC7 on Tuesday.

---

Read Mike Moffitt's latest stories and send him news tips at moffitt@sfgate.com.

What some people will do for attention nowadays...:rolleyes:

[Djuan]

10694 Falun Gong (China)
10695 Ethiopia
10696 Ethiopia
10697 Ethiopia
10698 Rastawoman

here are some that are not associated with "nazi's" entirely, and the Ethiopian ones predate most on the planet, go figure. Once you understand the workings behind those movements, the wars, the things the men who drove that movement were versed in, the power they wanted to work with etc. then you get why they only distort the natural original (anything) and natural ordinances (of everything), observed and put into functional application by our ancestors.

[Djuan]

10699 Shakyamuni
10700 .....