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monkeyfoot
02-10-2006, 04:55 PM
Hey people.

Right. Im interested in any information about the tiger riding stance/stances in general. Since being on the forum and seeing many different videos and images of mantis boxing I have been perplexed about this stance. Take a look at the pics

http://www.geocities.com/mantiscave/fabian.gif

http://www.rochesterkungfu.com/images/sm-low-kwan-yu.jpg

Both are northern 7* mantis, yet the stances are tottally different. Can I please have your thoughts on this. I thought that northern styles were generaly 'higher', or is this a ignorant misconception. What are your opinions on the depth/width of stances like this.
I of the opinion that it shouldn't be really deep as its not exactly used as a power generating stance like the horse or hill climbing. I cant see any benefits of going so low? The forward foot is reserved for kicking, so a 'higher positioning' would suit this stance better.

Im really confused as to why you can have such a difference in body positioning when both come from the same style.


craig

Ou Ji
02-10-2006, 06:30 PM
The guy in the first pic is showing off his leg strength and would never fight like that while the guy in the second pic is getting ready to tear you a new one.

onyomi
02-11-2006, 05:06 AM
They both look like xubu (empty stance) to me. Kuahu-shi (tiger-straddling stance) looks more like a 40-60 stance with the body facing more to the side. The benefit of going low is to train the strength and flexibility.

My shifu told me 13 Taibao was a form of "aida-gong" (training in receiving hits), though I haven't trained in it myself. Does it also include training exercises like that? Could you describe a couple of them if you have time? Thanks.

EarthDragon
02-11-2006, 08:40 AM
monkey foot,

as Ouji said they are in a different context.
A lot of people get confused when talking about stances.

the guy in the first picture is performing an extremly low stance which as youknowwho said takes incrediable leg strength, but its actual application is called DIAO LOU, where you seize your opponents arm and continue his motion pulling thier face to the ground, so the pose is actually after the technique is performed to to fight from.

The second pic is to show the characteristics of his style but neither are fighting positions.
hope this helps

yu shan
02-11-2006, 08:43 AM
This is our empty stance, we do in a higher way. The style I did before emphasized on very low stance work. It did make your legs very strong. Since then, I have lost a lot of this leg strength, but my footwork is much faster.

onyomi
02-12-2006, 01:33 AM
13 Taibao train for flexibility, balance, and strength. Here are few pictures. "Pulling onion off hard ground" is not in it.

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/8656/13taibu5ja.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Interesting, thanks. Do you just hold those positions or are there accompanying movements? Looks a little like the "Moving Arhat" exercises.

EarthDragon
02-12-2006, 10:44 AM
Onyomi, in 8 step, they are static postures przcticed to promote streength, flexability, agility and balance. Try them starting at a minute and work up from there. In SF we were holding them for 15 minutes! extremly diffucult indeed

FLYING SPARROW (FAI YEN)
ARMS EXTENDED BACKWARDS , ONE LEG FIRMLY ROOTED,
KNEE LOCKED , OTHER LEG RAISED BEHIND SO BODY FORMS A
STRIAGHT LINE , HEAD LOOKING FORWARD .

GRABBING SPARROW ( SHI YEN )
SAME AS FLYING SPARROW , EXCEPT HANDS GRAB FORWARD AND
TO THE SIDES

SPLITTING SPARROW ( GI YEN )
FEET SPREAD FAR APART , BEND AT WAIST , BODY IS PARALLEL
WITH GROUND,ARMS EXTENDED BACKWARDS HEAD STRAIGHT

BUDDAH LOOKS AT THE MOON ( WAN YAU )
CROSS ONE LEG OVER THE OTHER , KEEP KNEES LOCKED ONE HAND
TOUCHES GROUND THE OTHER EXTENDES TOWARD THE SKY, TURN
HEAD TOWARDS THE EXTENDED HAND

BUDDAH LOOKS AT THE SUN ( LOU HAN )
FEET SHOULDER WIDTH APART , EXTEND HANDS TOWARDS SKY
HANDS FLAT , PALMS FACING UPWARD WITH FINGERS POINTING
TO EACH OTHER

GRABBING HORSE ( SHI MA )
FEET WIDER THAN SHOULDER WITH , SQUAT SO LEGS ARE
PARALLEL WITH GROUND , ARMS EXTENDED TO THE SIDES GRAB
AND PULL IN SWIFTLY

SHOOT THE TIGER ( SHO TU HUNG )
FEET SHOULDER WIDTH APART, ARMS EXTENDED FORWARD BEND
TILL LEGS ARE PARALLEL WITH GROUND , BACK STAIGHT

SINGLE LEG ( HAN CHI )
LIFT ONE LEG UP UNTIL PARALLEL WITH GROUND , BEND AT THE
KNEE HOOKING FOOT INWARD , ONE HAND POINTING DOWN ONE
HAND EXTENDED TOWARDS SKY , FISTS CLENCHED

onyomi
02-12-2006, 11:27 PM
Thanks for the info. everybody. :)

monkeyfoot
02-14-2006, 05:36 AM
yea I second that people, thankyou very much for the initial info and the remaining discussion.

Earthdragon

The second pic is to show the characteristics of his style but neither are fighting positions.

I dont understand this, I thought that the second picture WAS a fighting position (mantis catches the cicarda). It would be a finishing position after the player has grappled the arm and pulled the opponent down towards him with the forward foot ready to kick out at the shinbone/knee cap.

craig

EarthDragon
02-14-2006, 01:37 PM
monkeyfoot,

Perhaps I did not explain coprrectly. The postures shown are applications, and postures taken after their application, not fighting stances.

This is not to be confused with after the fight has ended or the application has been performed. is that clearer? LOl maybe not after reading my own post
i.e

OK a tiger about to trounce is the pre fighting posture, paws in the air is the fight and the post fight posture would be static. after defeat.

Sometimes people ask how can you fight form a horse stance? you cant but the posture has a application and it is how you end up after it has been done.. hope that helps

monkeyfoot
02-14-2006, 02:50 PM
yea cheers for that earthdragon, I now understand where you were coming from

good stuff

craig

onyomi
02-15-2006, 10:52 AM
The second picture is Huang Han Xun's teacher, Luo Guangyu, isn't it? That's the "zhaopai" (signature) stance of PM, Praying Mantis Catches Cicada. It is the culmination of the twelve character principles as it can lead to, follow or include any of them. It's not a fighting stance in the sense that you wouldn't adopt it to spar, but it is in the sense that it implies a lot of the most important attacking methods of PM. That's why it's the "signature" position that ends many PM forms and that many PM sifus get their picture taken in.

-N-
02-15-2006, 12:43 PM
PM guys like to

- Right punch to your belly,
- Right back fist to your face,
- Right kick to your nuts. then
- Hop back into right "empty stance".


Set that up with left punch to face.


PM guys believe that if you are fast enough to get away from this 3 striking combo then they had better "run like hell".

This is the quote from Brendan Lai? Can you tell us about your time with him?

regards,
N.

monkeyfoot
02-15-2006, 02:54 PM
That's Lou Guangyu. The empty stance in PM usually is used for retreating. PM saying said, You Should be able to hop forward by 10 feet into "monkey stance - most weight on the front leg", and you should also be able to hop back 8 feet into "empty stance - most weight on the back leg".

PM guys like to

- Right punch to your belly,
- Right back fist to your face,
- Right kick to your nuts. then
- Hop back into right "empty stance".

PM guys believe that if you are fast enough to get away from this 3 striking combo then they had better "run like hell".

Yea thats a classic combo as showcased in Ey low. A player can simply shoot off the strikes or grapple with the backfist.

I agree, there is usually a warding punch before the 'drilling fist' in the stomach. I am also very fond of the 'warding punch, drilling fist, uppercutting elbow, hammer fist' as shown in 'Daw kwan kuen'. Its a nice way to go from long range to close range.....and the power from the elbow as you come up from a horse stance.....pheeewwww

craig

-N-
02-15-2006, 03:03 PM
Right grab, left punch setup.

Fung Tung Chui.

N.

mantis108
02-15-2006, 06:18 PM
I think the combo in question, which is a notable one, is basically in 2 parts.

The first part is Feng Huang San Dian Tou (phoenix nod its head thrice) in Taiji/Meihwa that usually begins with N's suggestion with the left straight punch to the head as a lead. Then it goes to the low right punch to the stomach and the right back fist to the head. It's a high-low-high lines attack.

The groin kick (yuan yang jiao) builds on the high-low- high and adds to it with a low line attack before leaving to regroup; hence, this is sometimes known as Lin Xing Yuan Yang Jiao (above to leave, groin kick). BTW, there are different names (at least 4) to the groin kick depending on what the hands are doing or what follows. The "hopping" back is known as Ba Bu and usually ends in Bi Shi (closing posture). This keeps the right side as the lead which is opposit of the posture shown. Yuan Yang Jiao is rarely done, at least in most of the Mantis forms, with the left leg forward.

Youknowwho's suggested combination of the 2 parts (effective and often done in Taiji/Meihwa tradition) without the lead which is fine when you are in the middle of a tie up IMHO.

The posture of LGY is generally known as Tanglang Puchan. The stance is higher to provide agility as well as stablity for the left leading leg as part of the Chin Na attack. The leading shin is used to lock (or attack if you prefer) the lead leg of the opponent who would be in right stance in this case. The hands are use in the most basic arm bar of Tanglang. It's elementary mantis. But it doesn't stop there if the opponent resists. In BJJ or MMA language, you are in "position" to make your move(s). Shrfu Shr Zhengzhong has a very interesting series of Chin Na moves that started with this basic posture.

Mantis108

Young Mantis
02-15-2006, 10:11 PM
Onyomi,

I think you have confused a few things here. The picture of LGY is indeed "Tong Long Bo Seem" - Mantis catches cicada and is most certainly a classic PM pose. But I have never heard that pose described as being the culmination of all 12 character principles. The form "Bung Bo" which is often described as the signature form of the style is said to contain all 12 character principles. The posture TLBS very much has an application for fighting and the tiger stance most certainly is one that can be used in a fight. It is not just for posing.

Vance


The second picture is Huang Han Xun's teacher, Luo Guangyu, isn't it? That's the "zhaopai" (signature) stance of PM, Praying Mantis Catches Cicada. It is the culmination of the twelve character principles as it can lead to, follow or include any of them. It's not a fighting stance in the sense that you wouldn't adopt it to spar, but it is in the sense that it implies a lot of the most important attacking methods of PM. That's why it's the "signature" position that ends many PM forms and that many PM sifus get their picture taken in.

-N-
02-16-2006, 02:53 AM
Yes, Praying Mantis loves that combo.

1979 must have been around that time when Brendan Lai met your teacher? He had great respect for him.

N.

Young Mantis
02-17-2006, 12:25 AM
Normally, when we use this combination, the left punch is preceded by a right hand grab of the opponents punch or leading hand. This is the Fung Sao Tung Chui. Therefore, in one case I am blocking the opponents punch then controlling the opponents wrist or arm followed with my left punch counter or I am using the right fung sao offensively to grab and control the opponents lead hand before delivering my left tung chui. Besides, this left punch does not have to be a 'setup'. I do have the intention of hitting the opponent in the face and either follow it with a right punch to the abdomen or the left is blocked and I continue with the right.

Vance

mantis108
02-17-2006, 11:35 AM
You are talking about Tsi Da - grab and punch which used widely in both PM and LF system. This will make more sense since you use leading arm back fist to set up a leading arm grab and then execute the back arm punch. Do you have concern that why let go the leading hand grab and exchange a lower belly punch? Is that a wise trade off? In my poinion, a leading arm wrist elbow control has more value then a leading arm wrist control, and a leading arm wrsit control has more valuee then a downward belly punch.

Well, letting go is the hardest part, right? :D

Seriously, that right lower belly punch is cream of the corp type of punches within Mantis and even found in older style such as Fanzi. The reason this is the cream is that it has to be trained with specially designed exercises, which in Mantis' term it is the "little dragon raises its head" (Xiao Long Tan Tou). My friend's Fanzi does something that call "Shaolin's lying Ox". Basically, it's a one fisted-arm push up. BTW, His explanation also includes crushing the bone of the instep of an attacker's incoming kick. It is a very powerful exercise to build that punch. Without that Gong, the punch amounts to nothing. Now in a friendly match, which you are not trying to injure your opponent this right punch serves a fake after that you can take whichever counter he's making. If he doesn't change his stance (still right side forward) you can go through with your move. If he does change his stance (left side forward) you can go with a Deng Pu in which case your belly punch become the right hand grab directly to his arm pit (you could go for the elbow joint too but it's a little slower to gain full control so...). One thing of note is that at all time, you hold onto at least one of his wrist for this to work. You can not do this in boxing but you could do this with venues that allows open hand gloves. Boxing won't allow back fist either so...


My question is, "Is it better to use punch to set up a grab and then use your grab to execute your throw, or use punch to set up a grab and then use your grab to set up another punch?"

I think this depends on the situation and largely dictated by your opponent's attribute. So...


If you can execute a successful Gou Lou Tsi Shou then you can definitely be able to release your wrist control hand and followed by a powerful face punch by borrowing his resistence, but you can also execute almost all the throws that you intend to since you have controled your opponent's leading arm both on the elbow and wrist areas.

Agreed. That's why Gou Lu Cai has to be drilled and drilled with a live partner since day one IMHO. It is the bread and butter of Tanglang if you ask me. ;)

Warm regards

Mantis108

-N-
02-17-2006, 02:14 PM
I have problem to use the back hand to set up the leading hand strike. You expose your chest area when you do that. It's OK to take that risk for "finish" move but not worth for "set up" move. In boxing, you will use front jab to set up back hook but not the other way around. Do any of you guys have this concern?
Yes, right grab/control with the left punch. Mantis likes to control/strike(takedown) over and over. The grab is like the jab to allow the left punch.

Advanced details for fung tung chui can use moot mei, and flower hidden in the leaves. YKW, I think you understand this.

N.

-N-
02-17-2006, 02:35 PM
Do you have concern that why let go the leading hand grab and exchange a lower belly punch? Is that a wise trade off? [...]

My question is, "Is it better to use punch to set up a grab and then use your grab to execute your throw, or use punch to set up a grab and then use your grab to set up another punch?"
Depends on distance. In the black tiger steal heart sequenced described, if the initial grab is solid and you are close enough after the punch and the bodies can stick, you can throw. If the distance is a little far and he escapes/parries the left punch, you continue driving in and use left grab right steal heart punch.

The right grab is not exchange for only right punch. It is exchanged for left grab right punch with an advantage on timing because you lead his reaction, especially with high low transition.

Steal heart punch can be done as throw. Also you can transition into other locks and throws from left cross grab position. If somehow the other person is fast enough to create distance, you explode in with bung chui to the high target and kick to low target.

If he is fast/smart/experienced enough to avoid all the high low changes and attacks, throw options, and half beat timing changes... yes it is time to "run like hell".

N.

onyomi
02-18-2006, 08:58 AM
Onyomi,

I think you have confused a few things here. The picture of LGY is indeed "Tong Long Bo Seem" - Mantis catches cicada and is most certainly a classic PM pose. But I have never heard that pose described as being the culmination of all 12 character principles. The form "Bung Bo" which is often described as the signature form of the style is said to contain all 12 character principles. The posture TLBS very much has an application for fighting and the tiger stance most certainly is one that can be used in a fight. It is not just for posing.

Vance

When I said it's not a sparring stance I meant you wouldn't adopt it in preparation for an enemy's attack, not that it doesn't have fighting applications. Obviously it has tons of applications or it wouldn't be the signature move.

I say Tanglang bu-chan embodies the 12-character principles in the sense that it can be a gou-lou, a double gou, or a double lou. It can also be a diao followed by a lou or some other move with the purpose of advancing, i.e. jin. It can have the quality of zhan and lead to nian-tie-kao. The twelve character principles can be divided into three groups of four, each of which is parallel to the other: gou-lou-cai-gua, diao-jin-beng-da and zhan-nian-tie-kao. They are parallel in the sense that if a gou fails you can quickly circle the opponent's arm and slide down with a diao. Lou is parallel to jin because it is used to enter or unbalance the opponent. Nian is parallel to lou and jin because it means to slide along/adhere while entering. Cai, beng and tie are parallel because they all can have a "set-up" function. Cai means to pluck like you would pluck a flower, i.e. by uprooting it. Beng, though it can refer to a simple backfist-like strike, can also mean "break open" as in "break open the opponent's defense." Tie sets the opponent up for a body stroke or other close-range finishing move.

So, each of the three groupings follows a basic pattern of trap, enter/control, set up, knock down. Tanglang Bu-chan can be any of the first two of these groupings. The first two in each group are really the most important because the last two are more ways of inflicting heavy damage once you've gotten the opponent off balance. As Mantis108 said, gou-lou-cai is the bread and butter of PM. Gou-lou-cai and all its variations are the heart of PM hand techniques, the strategy and tools of which are summed up by the twelve-character principles. When you view the 12 characters in a conceptual light tanglang bu-chan can be seen as a gou-lou, a diao-jin, a zhan-tie, or any combination of the above elements. It can also lead to any of the set up/finishing concepts of cai-gua, beng-da and tie-kao. That's why I say tanglang bu-chan represents the twelve-character principles.

Young Mantis
02-20-2006, 12:40 AM
I understand what you wrote. Wow, you have obviously spent a lot of time thinking about this one move. In my opinion, the 12 key words and all the other academic knowledge about the style helps to organize the style, to give it structure, theories, and concepts. While it is good to know this information, especially how it pertains to the movements and techniques, I don't over analyze them so much. You can read something into anything if you want to.