Something Different

[maoshan]

This is a Maoshan/blacktaoist Production.

Greetings all
Since most ya'll wern't ready for the last post, we're gonna take it down a tab. The Blacktaoist and I are talking to each other but we're addressing the board.

Blacktaoist:
How do you Yall apply the I-Ching to your life?
What are your standards? But Wait, if the I-Ching is about change, how do you put a standard on change? Change can't be sterio typed or confined.
It's a continuous evolving matrix is it not?

Maoshan:
I feel you black.
But because of the lack of responces on the last post, were your going, I think is to deep for them. Most talk the I-Ching but they don't know it.

Blacktaoist:
Sifu said the I-Ching shouldn't be practiced, it should be lived. If you analize the tao, it's not the Tao. The Tao is simple. It's like taking a crap. Do you analize it? No. You do yopur business
wipe your behind and go. No anilization. What do you think Maoshan?

Maoshan:
I don't think the I-Ching is for western beginners

Blacktaoist:
Yo, Why do you feel like that? In I-Ching, there's no beginning or end. There's no elementary
or college level. Every body interpets the I-Ching
with thier own level of understanding.

Maoshan:
Yeah but you've got to remember, the I-Ching came from China and is at the heart of thier culture.
We're not Chinese. We have to study 20X harder for something they grow up with. and the fact that it's so condradictory to western sociaty in general makes it that much harder.

Blacktaoist:
That's true, but there's a lot of so-called scholars out there.

Maoshan:
Huh, ask the chinese about thier understanding of thier culture. They smirk and giggle especially the old men. Don't belive the hype. there are some, but a lot fewer than you think.

Blacktaoist:
the reason why, is just like back in the 1800's, the educated prayed on the uneducated. knowledge is power, Proper knowledge is greatness. What's that saying of yours? Practice doesn't make perfect, Perfect practice makes perfect.

Maoshan:
The last post was too deep. so were going to take it here, the trigrams, each one at a time.

Blacktaoist:
But dame, I didn't get a chance to talk about Aura
reading, energy projection, Vibration training.
Man, that metaPhysical s**t is deep. I didn't believe before, but i do now. Your ass is crazy,
But in a metaphysical way your sane and stable.

Maoshan:
All right, the first trigram Chien.

Blacktaoist:
Oh Chien. I'm the one who don't have much humility
and i'm arrogant. I feel the trigram reprisent my personality, extreme Yang. I love to channel my anger into fighting energy.
Man, I don't like to bragg, but I'm explosive. But i can also be extreme Yin. Sometimes because of my youthful apperance, some people think i'm meek in some ways. but in a lot of ways I'm very unpredictable. Isn't that what the I-ching talks about, change? Yo, Maoshan, this is the way I feel, Nothing in the universe stays the same.
Here's an anology for the guys up on this board.

If a man doesn't have heart, and let's say he's getting robbed everyday in his hood. He can either change his route or accept getting robbed continuously or he canchange the whole senerio altogether. So basically you only have 3 choices.
If he changes his route he'll still be found. After all he's still in the hood. 2, He can either
fight back and demand his respect or just be a victum. in fighting back you create change. you visualize and then you manifest the idea of fighting back into reality. thus this is change.
If you don't except that, you know what the third alternative is, Death.

Maoshan:
The Blacktaoist has just given an example of how the first trigram intergrates with his being.
Somewhat more toward fighting,but also how it applys to life. how does it effect you?
In order to truly master Ba-Gua each trigram must be disected and seen how it applys to you. not as an oracle. But practical applications. Not just martial but to life in general. You can experiance each of the trigrams a few times a day
if your aware. so again what does the CHIEN TRIGRAM mean to you?

[count]

But isn't it the relationship of two trigrams how the I-Ching is applied to Bagua? Have we stopped discussing "Metaphysical BaGua" and changed the discussion to something less complicated? Life. Isn't it the two together that create the change? I think if you focus on one there is benefit, like the benefit you get from Chi Kung, but if you want to apply this philosophy to bagua and fighting shouldn't we take it up a level?
;)


Œ

[blacktaoist]

count i feel the idea is not to train the same thing over and over again but rather to strive for specific goals in ones training. A person must have establish realistic tranining goals even in metaphysical boxing or I-ching theory. The core of understanding the I-ching lies in the individual mind, and until that is touched, everything is uncertain and superficial. there is no standard in life, life is a constant change and not stagnation. life and the I-ching are a constant process of discovery, a process of knowledge without end, self-knowledge. unfortunately, most pa kua chang students that read the I-ching are conformists. Instead of learning to depend on themselves for self-knowledge expression of the I-ching. I feel the I-ching cannot be perceived until we come to fully understand ourselves and our potentials. trgrams in the I-ching can only inhibit freedom, but the freedom that accrues from self-knowledge cannot be acquired through strict adherence to a I-ching trgrams, so in pa kua chang we do not suddenly "become"free, we are free. Taking your art of pa kua chang up a level, to an evolving martial art. peace count.

[razakdigital]

theblacktaoist and maoshan,

I read the post and I enjoyed it. I thought it was original and believe me when I say that there is no bias in my statement. You guys deserve a star for this post. I need to ask a question...

theblacktaoist - you mention about Pa Kua Chang practitioners being conformist when reading the I-Ching...

Are you saying that they are restricting themselves in their learning process or they are too strict with the thoeries of the I-Ching?

[Boulder Student]

I have thought about the first trigram when I hike in the mountains. The movements are very rhythmic and repetitive. Hike, drink, sleep; repeat. Where ever I go, there I am. This can continue for days.

Typically, the change comes with the weather or the appearance of an unforeseen hazard. Because of the space, I always avoid in the backcountry. Avoid the lightning, wait for the creek to drop, watch the snow field, avoid the bears, avoid the cougars while moving in the same general direction.

The change comes in the avoidance and the disruption of the rhythm while continuing with the journey.

One must toughen up without losing one's tenderness.

[maoshan]

Peace
Sorry it took so long for me to reply. life.

Count.
Each Trigram represents an energy unto itself.
though apart of the whole,in order to manipulate the energy the way you are describing, needs a good understanding of each as a singular. then the combining of the energys is achieved. The Trigrams are the base. The Hexagrams grow out of understanding the trigrams.

I Took it down because as me and the Taoist disscussed earlier, it was oviously to deep for them. so to bring it down was the next step.
Bagua's 8 Directional simatainious use of energy
depends on knowledge of each trigram. If you begin with the Hexagrams, Knowledge of the energy
will be too superficial. And so you won't use it's full potential. Not only will you not be able to demonstrate defence against multiple opponents. You won't reach the more subtile energys that are refined with the knowledge of each Trigram. Also within each trigram are the elements of change.Between the first Trigram and the last is the complete transition between Yin And Yang, and each point in that transition. The progression to the Hexagrams is the same thing.
Yin to Yang and all aspects in between.

Rezak:

The problem is the approch. The I-Ching Is not some book. that is based on anything we are used to,it must be approuched carfully. That is why it must be based on the individual. Which must be based on some knowledge of self. Focusing on the I-Ching with no Frame of referance, Is confusing
as well as misleading. The I-Ching Is an oracle,
Not a book on Martial arts. You first have to find out where you are in the I-Ching before you can cull the secrets y'all so desire. So yes Those with the wrong Idea of the I-Ching are seriously hampering thier progress.

Boulder student:
If i read what you wrote correctly, I disagree.
Change comes at any point. you can't avoid change
that would be stagnation. the way you put it is one aspect of the approach. I speak of the whole.

Peace
Maoshan

[count]

Blacktaoist,

Your points are good ones. I think your reply may have been partially influenced by my post in the original "Metaphysical BaGua" thread so I would clarify my comment about "the constant drilling of technique to make bagua techniques a part of you". Much like the Zen koan, "you can not step in the same river twice", when we drill our techniques they are always coming from a different angle. The attacker is always a different size, weight, strength, level of expertise, etc. The speed and timing is always different and the attack comes from a different mindset of aggression. Yet the techniques are applied with the same principles of energy and intention. In this way you are conditioning your reflexive response to adjust to any situation. The technique dissolves into one method of dealing with force. After practicing a technique both static and dynamically in free sparring, you no longer think about the application, you just are the application. Eventually, you no longer think about bagua, you are bagua.

Today I think of the I-Ching as a map. (this could change tomorrow) When you use a map to get where you are going, the direction is relative to where you are. Of course a map doesn't tell you the position of the sun or direction of the wind when you are reading it. It simply tells you where you came from and where you are going and where you are in relationship. It doesn't tell you if a road is blocked or closed but it tells you other possible routes you can take. But after you have gone to some place from different places, you no longer need the map to find your way. You know your way.

The tri-grams of the bagua are like the symbols on a map. They clearly illustrate the core energies of bagua. When you combine 2 energies/trigrams you create a new energy. But the map is not the road and the bagua is not the baguazhang. The I-ching is not the knowing but it does show the direction to follow. Just like the map does not choose my destination, the I-ching does not choose my goals. As to whether or not the I-ching has an influence in bagua for me, I can not say, because I don't know what my bagua would be without it. It is already in my conscience and I can not take it away and start over. So it naturally effects the evolution of my martial art but it does not inhibit it.

Maoshan, it's about time! I understand what you are saying about the expression of energy in each singular trigram. Each being different by the combination of yin or yang. But how does one trigram express change, unless you compare it to another one? Isn't the essence of change where the I-ching meets baguazhang? Is it not the wayning of one and the waxing of the other where we find the energy to overcome an attacker/s? I think you are right that you must understand each trigram individually before you can combine two effectively. It is a natural progression.

I think you are mistaken about it being to deep for me and the others trying to participate in your discussion. Maybe it was a little vague in what you were saying in your original post (metaphysical bagua). Others tried to add their angle on it without knowing exactly what you were getting at and the result may not have been the hexagram that you thought would come. But we can still learn from each chapter something different. Your original post "metaphysical bagua" may have been too yin or kun. Too rooted in earth. Look at the responses that Crimson Phoenix got with his post "Baguazhang and the trigrams...a fake link?" It was yang and yin and yang or Li, pure fire and got many good responses from both sides. This post may be to yang, chien, or heaven for people to follow but I think it makes a good discussion. (BTW. What Chien means to me in the context of the dialog can be found in the title to my last reply. When you combine Chien with Chien you get the first chapter of the I-ching. Creative Power.) Maybe in combining the two we can find the discussion you are looking for?

If all this is too vauge or off point, it is because I am still trying to make the connection. For me, bagua is about basic techniques, applications and physical practice. I am still in the yang part of my journey. But in looking ahead to the yin part, I think I see the philosophy and spirit of the Books of Changes and other classics being an important part of my understanding of baguazhang.

[count]

Like the truth does not come from the reading of the I-ching but the interpretation of it, these ideas do not come from my teachers teaching, but my interpretation of it.

[maoshan]

Sorry i took so long to reply.

The study of change was not what I was getting at.
Each Trigram symbolizes a distinct energy which
needs to be understood in order to make more efficient transitions between the energys.

Also, the more familiar you are with each particular energy allows you superior use in the combinations of the energys.

Change is the essence of both the I-Ching and Bagua. But like the progression of the system from
fixed steps to moving steps to Changing steps
all of that will come. this is a beginning.

I did not say this topic was to deep for you or anyone in particular. Although there are some on this board this deffenetly applied to.
and your right I think the way i put it was too
may have been too heaven bound.

I'm not saying The I-Ching is not to be read or studied(hell, i'v got four versions myself).
But for individuals who barly have a foundation
in martial arts at all, this is a traditional beginning. There are people qouting the I-Ching as it applies to Bagua and can't walk the Circle for 20min straight. In order for the spirit to grow it must be taxed. We're Taoist martial Artist, The martial arts are a way to reach the spirit through the flesh. ah, but the flesh is weak. unless we put it under stern conditions.
as time goes by the presence of the spirit becomes stronger thus influancing your thoughts
as applies to everything. The I-Ching is no different. it is through the spirit that we'll understand the I-Ching not anilization with the intellect.

All the higher aspects of Bagua are not really even Bagua, there methods of alchemy from the Taoist teachings of energy circulation.
To reach the highest level of being will I use the
I-Ching and the rest. I combine at this point in my life.
And like you, The philosophy of Tao teh Ching
as well as others are an important part of my understanding of Ba-Gua at it's hightest levels.

Peace
Maoshan

[razakdigital]

We can debate back and forth about I-Ching and everybody has his or her own opinion. When you touch hands with someone you better have skills because there will be no debate. Bottom line, Pa Kua Chang consist of circle walking and from this you develop and manifest the energies of the universe. If you can't follow the principles that one must follow in circle walking - then what’s the use of understanding the I-Ching? You have to build internal energy before you can do anything. The foundation of Pa Kua is Nei Gung and later you can go to the I-Ching. The bottom line is you need I-Ching to learn how to fight and you don't need the I-Ching to reach a higher level of spirituality.

My Sifu had me had spar with cats that knew the I-Ching and had mad years of experience over me. The cats couldn’t even defend themselves...where was their trigram palms then? You have to have skillzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..... That experience gave me confidence that I'm learning real martial arts....

We do sitting and standing mediation to reach the Tao...We do understand the I-Ching and we don't study to the point of fooling ourselves...We are Africans so we study the ways of Ifa and we use the energies of the Dogon for astral quest within ourselves...Unlike the I-Ching the Ifa tells us what is likely to happen if we do not change our circumstances. Not only does it forecast the future it gives us an opportunity to change it.

Power comes from our ancestors, how can you worship someone’s else philosophies…you will get power but you won’t get greatness…true spirituality gives thanks to your ancestors and follow their philosophies and theories…

If you want to follow someone else's ways that cool with us - but you will never get their essence.

The bottom line is that we Afrikan and we empower our life with Ifa ... this is a way to spiritual mystery for us... I love Chinese Martal Arts but my ancestors come first...after all - all life evolve from Africa ...but thats another topic...

[dre_doggX]

Chien. I full this is me cause Iam very creative but storng in by beliefs. Can take many forms but have my a normally form(personilty) that I never disgard.

Andre Lashley

[Daniel Madar]

I've been reading these posts for a bit, and I have been restraining myself from answering or commenting. Maybe I got distracted by the knife fighting questions on the main forum or something.

I'd simply like to say this:

Using the I ching to understand bagua is like using the bible or the koran to understand god.

When you begin to study bagua, or think about religion, you have what is called a "Beginner's mind". You can intuitively understand many principles, simply through action.

After some time, you may plateau, and your development will stall. For all disciplines this is extremely common. If you will pardon my religious analogies, Christ always said it was the children who knew the truth, but as you get older you lose touch with it. Same is true in many way's with practice. You do something right the first time intuitively, the 10th time doubt sets in.

In this case, the I-ching can serve as a vehicle for understanding. It can aid you with your development martially and spiritually. Like other vehicles, literal or figurative, it is subject to abuse and misuse. The Bible and Koran can lead you to a greater understanding, or create a climate of elitism, paranoia and generall bull@****. A car can take you from point a to point b, but one wrong turn and you are eating windshield.

No matter whether the i-ching is used successfully to aid your development, or if it distracts you from your goals, one of the most common errors is to view the vehicle as the goal.

Using the I-ching is meant as an enabler, as a method for developing understanding. As such it is not necessary for all people, but very necessary for others. If you think of being able to successfully interpret the i-ching as one of your goals in bagua, or in life, then you have already failed. The goal of the i-ching is to understand life, not the other way around.

[maoshan]

That was a tuff responce.

the Point for me is, any wearth while goal, comes with hard work. Lasting effects come from a progression from beginners to advanced. You cannot
not finish high school and jump into a PHD program
we all know this. Spirituality is an individual thing, so it comes unevenly. There are the rare few who can at very early stages percieve the types of levels the Books call on. and then there's most of the world. All progress came from a progression. You can't bypass A and jump to W.

Sorry about the mistakes in my last post. I just saw them.

Peace All
Maoshan

[Guandi]

>Using the I ching to understand bagua is like
>using the bible or the koran to understand god.

your analogy says to me, that studying the i-ching for understanding Ba-Gua Zhang is worthless, because it is also impossoble to unerstand god by reading a book, whether it is the bible ot not. But I think this is not what you meant.

Guandi