New Abu Ghraib Photos Released

[Hieronim]

warning graphic:


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/2/14/183059/640

[Radplaiddude]

bO HOO, SO, IF THESE FARKS CAUGHT YOU THEY WOULD DO WAY MUCH MORE THAN THAT.

[GreenCloudCLF]

bO HOO, SO, IF THESE FARKS CAUGHT YOU THEY WOULD DO WAY MUCH MORE THAN THAT.

Way to lump everyone of one race together in a biggotted statement!:eek:

[Radplaiddude]

Why is this being posted on a kung fu forum. I made the mistake of getting pulled into this post. Back to Kung fu

[Mortal1]

Someone should post pics of journalists getting there heads cut off. I think we should be much harder on them. Not a whole race. Just the garbage popping out of gargbage cans and shooting our young soldiers.

[FuXnDajenariht]

****in' hicks

[Ou Ji]

Too many gays in the military!?

What's with all the naked guys?

[David Jamieson]

i wonder how many of those psyop freaks troll these boards looking for dissent.

lol :p

[SanHeChuan]

Yes a some are bloodied up, which is unfortunate but happens. Who hasn't seen as bad or worse in police arrests? Sometimes a ****er disserves to get smacked around. I few bloody noses are incidental. Many if not most of the injuries were probably sustained before arrival at the prison, but that’s just a guess. That one dude with the blanket looks more like he leaned his head against the wall rather that being slammed against the wall. No splatter. :o

Now I understand that the army in this case was neglecting many of its duties, and it’s good that they got called on it. Of particular note would be their poor medical care. <-:mad:
But some of the things that some people are citing as wrong are just fine in my book.

Some dude sitting naked with a hood on, so what? Why was that one guy praying upside down, Mecca is not that way dude. :confused: As for why they would be naked beyond the processing and delousing process I don't know, it's a little disturbing but, but isn't a moral issues for me. :eek:

I think the liberals have gotten a little too liberal in their definition of torture. Having your fingernails getting pulled out or getting beat down or other physical injury is torture. Being made unduly uncomfortable or playing mind **** games, that’s good business. Your room not being the right temperature (as was cited in Cuba) is not torture. :rolleyes:
Humiliation is not torture, anyone see revenge of the nerds?

Physical harm bad :mad:

Psychological harm good :eek:

[David Jamieson]

Yes a some are bloodied up, which is unfortunate but happens. Who hasn't seen as bad or worse in police arrests? Sometimes a ****er disserves to get smacked around. I few bloody noses are incidental. Many if not most of the injuries were probably sustained before arrival at the prison, but that’s just a guess. That one dude with the blanket looks more like he leaned his head against the wall rather that being slammed against the wall. No splatter. :o

Now I understand that the army in this case was neglecting many of its duties, and it’s good that they got called on it. Of particular note would be their poor medical care. <-:mad:
But some of the things that some people are citing as wrong are just fine in my book.

Some dude sitting naked with a hood on, so what? Why was that one guy praying upside down, Mecca is not that way dude. :confused: As for why they would be naked beyond the processing and delousing process I don't know, it's a little disturbing but, but isn't a moral issues for me. :eek:

I think the liberals have gotten a little too liberal in their definition of torture. Having your fingernails getting pulled out or getting beat down or other physical injury is torture. Being made unduly uncomfortable or playing mind **** games, that’s good business. Your room not being the right temperature (as was cited in Cuba) is not torture. :rolleyes:
Humiliation is not torture, anyone see revenge of the nerds?

Physical harm bad :mad:

Psychological harm good :eek:

wow.

This post shows how wide the gap is in understanding a couple of things

a)the culture that has been invaded

and

b) the enemy

[Hieronim]

it could happen to you:
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/camps1.htm

[Hieronim]

and american prisons arent so nice either:
http://www.westword.com/issues/2000-05-25/news/feature_6.html

note the article links to page 6, all you have to do is click on page one to start from beginning.

also check out this book
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0816524637.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0816524637/104-6246598-4702328?v=glance&n=283155

"In November of 1977, Terry Lee Farmer, a white inmate at Arizona State Prison in Florence, walked up to black prisoner Waymond Small in front of sixty witnesses and stabbed him in the heart with a shank. Small had agreed to testify before the state legislature about gang violence inside Arizona State Prison and was murdered the day before his scheduled appearance. This murder proved the catalyst for an all-out war between the State of Arizona and the Aryan Brotherhood. Through five trials, Farmer claimed self-defense and the jurors acquitted all ten of his co-conspirators. Thornton Price, one of the defense attorneys, now tells how Farmer and Small became cannon fodder in this war to reclaim Arizona's prisons from rival gangs. These gangs--the Aryan Brotherhood, the Mau Maus, and the Mexican Mafia--were suspected of committing more than a dozen murders over the previous two years, motivating politicians to crack down after the violence could no longer be ignored or contained. To reconstruct the case, Price reviewed 16,000 pages of court records and conducted interviews with key participants to piece together an insider's account of the crime and the politics behind its investigation. Prison murders should be easy to solve, but investigators quickly learned that the convicts' code of silence makes these cases often impossible to win in court. Price focuses on the special problems posed by prison crime by getting inside the skins of men like murderer Terry "Crazy" Farmer and William "Red Dog" Howard, one of the Florence Eleven and a founder of the Aryan Brotherhood. He also presents the perspectives of state investigators and reveals how they calculated to pit black witnesses against white killers until one black would break the code of silence and provoke feuding within the Brotherhood. Murder Unpunished tells how society's most outrageous criminals ran the prison through gang violence as outside the walls Arizona struggled to outgrow its Wild West past. Like few other books, it reveals how prisons incubate predatory criminals and gangs, and it exposes the unique difficulties of prosecuting prison crimes. It is a gripping account that cuts to the heart of our penal system and a cautionary tale for citizens who prefer to keep prisons out of sight, out of mind."

[KC Elbows]

Aside from the torture issue, if you want to win a foreign people's hearts and get them to back your government, I'm a bit confused on how taking pictures of torture does it. One poster mentioned that cops do worse. But most everyone recognizes that when a cop is dumb enough to get videoed doing it, he's all on his own, and for good reason.

It's insanely naive to think that these pictures aid the war on terror. Happy that these guys got hurt? Fine. Happy despite the fact that pictures like these will motivate people who weren't killing our boys in Iraq to start doing so? Why do you hate our troops? Hell, why do the idiots who are taking these pictures hate the troops that actually have to do the real fighting?

[GreenCloudCLF]

People confuse justice with revenge...they are most DEFENATELY not the same.

As for the police analogy, it is irrelevant. Police are affecting arrest...these prisoners have already been arrested...If they are guilty of a crime, let them stand trial. Even Saddam Hussein is getting to stand trial...

[Mortal1]

And look what a joke of a circus that turned out to be. We should have just put him in a room with the surviving members of the family's he gassed.

[MasterKiller]

One poster mentioned that cops do worse. But most everyone recognizes that when a cop is dumb enough to get videoed doing it, he's all on his own, and for good reason.

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/1213/

possible NWS ads...

[David Jamieson]

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/1213/

possible NWS ads...


wow, that's disgusting.
Not a very good showing of the services is it.
Beating on civs for throwing stones.

Well, I guess that pretty much negates the whole hearts and minds claptrap.

and yeah, the cameraman definitely has issues with hate and anger, but mostly hate.

[Mortal1]

They totally deserved it. I have seen worse beatings in Brookyln over a chick.

These kids are rock throwing vermin. Those rocks are weapons that could kill. These kids have to learn that there is a price to pay for there agressions.

[David Jamieson]

They totally deserved it. I have seen worse beatings in Brookyln over a chick.

These kids are rock throwing vermin. Those rocks are weapons that could kill. These kids have to learn that there is a price to pay for there agressions.
I hope you're being sarcastic, but if not...oh well, get some perspective and while you're at it, check out the definition of 'overkill' on www.dictionary.com

:rolleyes:

[Nick Forrer]

They totally deserved it. I have seen worse beatings in Brookyln over a chick.

These kids are rock throwing vermin. Those rocks are weapons that could kill. These kids have to learn that there is a price to pay for there agressions.


If you can hear the phone ringing its the local village. They want their idiot back.

[GreenCloudCLF]

They totally deserved it. I have seen worse beatings in Brookyln over a chick.

These kids are rock throwing vermin. Those rocks are weapons that could kill. These kids have to learn that there is a price to pay for there agressions.

I just...you know...really I mean..

No words can describe....

PS...isn't this from the guy who says he doesnt fight???

[Mortal1]

You are a bunch of clueless libs.

Resort to name calling is all your good for.

They were throwing rocks that could kill you. If the soldiers machine gunned them I would have though that was overkill. A little beating and your loberal hearts are bleeding.

Because I chose not to fight in the ring doesn't mean I wouldn't fight. Oh wait that has nothing to do with this thread.

For the record if some punk kid threw a stone at me I would beat him senseless.

What would you guys do? Oh wait I know sit around and rationalize how these little animals were justified and how you really deserved it. :p

I am off to my vacation so more name calling and insults won't be repsonded to.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Actually I am a fan of Bush and conservative policies (generally)...but sometimes common sense wins out, ya know.

[David Jamieson]

last i heard rocks don't penetrate riot shields, body armour or kevlar helmets, so I don't know where the idea that rocks can kill them is coming from.

now getting your head beat in with a nightstick when your a teenager, well that can kill you.

who stands upi for these people? It certainly isn't the occupational forces that are trying to force democracy down their throats.

"libs" psssh, now who's talking shyte? Dude, it's common sense that you let that stuff go and as soon as dispersal occurs, you don't run after the mob to pick out the weak ones and stragglers to bring them back into the compound for a beating.

That's just common sense, those soldiers who did that are completely in the wrong on this and could have brought themselves more harm and put their fellows in harms way for taking teh actions that they did take.

In fact, they have indeed created more of a problem by their actions.

This is indicative to me of training and guidance in regards to the area and region they are in that is just plain lacking and sub standard.

nuff said

[Radhnoti]

I have a close friend who handled security for the U.S. embassy in a Middle Eastern country. He says they would do whatever they could to disperse crowds of protestors...who he thought were idiots...to try to help them out. If the crowd lasted until the local forces showed, people were probably going to die. He said he hated to see the motorcycles with one driver and one gunman facing backwards show up, they were brutal and the guys that did it really enjoyed their jobs.
I'd humbly submit that people who call a little "strongarming" of protestors overkill might not be aware of the norms for...well, at least for one Middle Eastern country. My friend seemed to think U.S. forces were not respected because of their (mandated) restraint.

[SanHeChuan]

They probably were bloodied up during arrest. Some of those photos look like document photos of injuries prisoners had on arrival, part I why they strip them down.

Ahemd was caught hiding a few dozen AK's and an assortment of other weapons in his garden. The Marines came to arrest him and busted in all SWAT style which scared the **** out oh Ahemd. Now the marines are yelling at him to get down (probably in English and Arabic) but Ahemd is freaking out. The marines are not going to lay down their M-16's so they can wrestle the guy to the ground, that would be just plain stupid. So they use what’s in their hands, and butt-stroke the guy a couple of times till he drops to the ground. And the next thing you know you got a couple of photos taken out of context exclaimed as examples of torture.

Ignorant of their Culture?:rolleyes:

My point is that as Prisoners of war their “Culture” does not matter. Their feelings do not matter. What their favorite foods are don’t matter. Their names, ideas, beliefs, preferences, none of that **** matters. Keep’em relatively physically healthy and you’re doing good.

[David Jamieson]

They probably were bloodied up during arrest. Some of those photos look like document photos of injuries prisoners had on arrival, part I why they strip them down.

Ahemd was caught hiding a few dozen AK's and an assortment of other weapons in his garden. The Marines came to arrest him and busted in all SWAT style which scared the **** out oh Ahemd. Now the marines are yelling at him to get down (probably in English and Arabic) but Ahemd is freaking out. The marines are not going to lay down their M-16's so they can wrestle the guy to the ground, that would be just plain stupid. So they use what’s in their hands, and butt-stroke the guy a couple of times till he drops to the ground. And the next thing you know you got a couple of photos taken out of context exclaimed as examples of torture.

Ignorant of their Culture?:rolleyes:

My point is that as Prisoners of war their “Culture” does not matter. Their feelings do not matter. What their favorite foods are don’t matter. Their names, ideas, beliefs, preferences, none of that **** matters. Keep’em relatively physically healthy and you’re doing good.

so you agree with running a country with a foreign army like a prison camp?

:rolleyes:

[SanHeChuan]

I'm talking about criminal's in Prison here, so I agree with running a prison like a "prison camp" yes. Kinda make sense to me.

[Ao Qin]

Very amusing Shane...

But I think people are perhaps ignoring or not hearing the concerns of the international community in regards to the treatment of the POW. The US signed on to the Geneva Conventions (and many other UN treaties in regard to torture, treatment of combatants and non-combatants, etc.) which are obviously not being followed. Check out Amnesty Int., UN, etc. Reading the piece linked below gave me even more concerns - from the "Physicians for Human Rights" (US based org.);

http://www.phrusa.org/publications/torture.html#torture

I would hope others find this as disturbing as I do.

AQ

[David Jamieson]

People that buy into one side over another understand neither.

yes there are terrorists. they are bad people that do bad things to innocent people in teh name of their cause whatever it may be.

Yes, there is a right to defend oneself and their families and for that matter their country from such people as teh terrorists are.


Terrorists come in many different hats. Sometimes, they wear a kafia, carry an ak47 and walk through a desert.

Sometimes they wear a suit and walk through a nice hallway on teh way to their offices.

The terrorists that are your side are not terrorists. Only the other side is terrorists. Your side is usually righteous and their side is evil. It is the same on either side.

It can be easily surmised that neithers leaders can be trusted with what they have to say about much of it.

[GreenCloudCLF]

The terrorists that are your side are not terrorists. Only the other side is terrorists. Your side is usually righteous and their side is evil. It is the same on either side.

And this really sums it up. No one wakes up one day and says to themselves, "I am going to be evil." It happens when they stand up and fight for what they believe in, even though the rest of the world doesn;t agree, and is forced to fight back.

Think about what would have happened if Hitler had won WWII. Remember, it is the victors that write teh history books. If Hitler had won, do you think the Germans would think concentration camps were evil? Do you think that Erurope would be the same place it is now? The U.S. would probably been seen as the evil empire sticking their nose onto another continent for their own benefit (much like oil and the mid-East).

Anywho, excessive use of force proves nothing, but that you are stronger and willing to vicitmize weaker people. If your ethics and beliefs were so right, you should be able to get the point across without violating others rights. There will always be war, especially if we keep having occurences like the Abu Grhaib prison scandal.

[Radhnoti]

It would also be fair to say, "We'll always have war as long as Islamic extremists fly planes into our buildings since the U.S. considers Israel an ally." But I do take your point, and David's as well. Evil depends on where you're standing. But I disagree that my understanding that they are not evil means I have to advocate a less severe response. I feel that, in the end, everyone is going to have to decide if they (primarily) want the kind of future an Islamic world would provide or the kind our Western society leads us toward.

[GreenCloudCLF]

It would also be fair to say, "We'll always have war as long as Islamic extremists fly planes into our buildings since the U.S. considers Israel an ally." But I do take your point, and David's as well. Evil depends on where you're standing. But I disagree that my understanding that they are not evil means I have to advocate a less severe response. I feel that, in the end, everyone is going to have to decide if they (primarily) want the kind of future an Islamic world would provide or the kind our Western society leads us toward.

And that's actually my point. If we win the war the history books will read "Islam is Evil...blah blah blah."

If we lose the history books will read "The U.S., while run by non-Islamics was evil..blah blah blah."

What we see as right and wrong is largely a ethnocentric belief.

[Radhnoti]

I completely agree, there is no right or wrong that isn't based in large part on perspective. But, really, you have to protect or advance YOUR perspective, because I can guarantee you the other guy is sure to do so. In the end, neutral parties will stay neutral or pick the side that from THEIR perspective works best with their own interests as well. For the neutrals it becomes a game of choosing not the PERFECT option, but the best at hand. And everybody has to understand that both sides will be "playing" to win, because to do any less is surrendering and losing something of your way of life.
So, I agree it's all about perspective, but I disagree that understanding this means an ethnocentric perspective is wrong. An enlightened future may label BOTH sides as wrong, but one side will probably also be viewed as the "victor". I know which side I'd want as the future's dominant force, and it's not the one that barricades girls from leaving a burning building because most of them have their faces uncovered...

[David Jamieson]

I think a lot of the more "backwoods" practices of extreme islamic fundamentalism aren't that different from the backoods perspectives of extreme fundamentalist Christians.

the barabaric practices usually stem from lack of education and a refusal to allow a secular approach to the needs of the current lifestyle.

Now the west has a lot of perversion in it. Of that there is no doubt. We exploit humans like no other civilization and degrade them to the point of being a commodity.

the degradation on the other side is different in flavourt but degradation nevertheless.

It's not a perspective issue to say that some of the offerings of western civilization are perverse and extremely so to a culture that is more reserved in their views on lifestyle and sexuality as any religious society is.

The amish in pennsylvania are suitably horrified by some of teh comings and goings of american media or at least what they may have some exposure to and there is a movemnet in many western communities to not abide by the generously liberal and secular ways of the western civilization.

we consistently corrupt our youth and we have shown a failure to be able to act towards our own people with any humanity and to allow them much dignity when they are not status quo conformists.

homelessness is at an all time high, churches are emptier than rumsfelds platitudes about civilian deaths in Iraq and the socila core is crumbling due to many contributing factors of the grand experiment that is the new world.

we need to take a pluralist view and get away from teh cultural relativism. Who cares if someone only believes in one god and wears a turban, is that really any reason to get down on them?

The have death sentences and so do some 34 or 36 states in the usa. Here they shoot you up, electrocute you and there they chop your head off. The means are different but the end is the same.

there are human rights infractions in every single country in the world.

Child poverty is staggering in north america to the point where independent institutions have had to come into being where there was no need for them before.

Something changed at the end of the seventies and into the eighties. Some fundamental foothold of human rights was lost in this time in the west because that's when these problems really began to rise and manifest.

I think it started with Reaganomics and in Canada the Mulroney era which saw across most of north america the rise of greed is good to the level of greed is god.

it is almost irreperable at this point. The longer we continue on the path we're on here in the west, the greater the divide will be in our own houses and definitely in the view of the rest of the world who have hardly even imagined what it would be like to be in the constructs of the west where much is percieved to be the easy life.

and compared to the greater part of the world, even the poor in the west don't have it so bad.

[KC Elbows]

Again, regardless of your standpoint on whether torture is justified or not, taking pictures of it when it will only make REAL soldier's lives harder should come with a one way ticket to jogging through Fallujah with speedos bearing a clear picture of Mohammed. It's just stupid.

Again: torturing evil men: open for debate.

Torturing evil men and taking picws of you doing it: why aren't you on the front lines, *******?

[MasterKiller]

I dunno. I think sticking lightbulbs up people's asses = torture. But that's just me.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

There are due processes for treatment of prisoners. The US cannot hold itself out as liberators from oppression using such violent tactics as shown by some of the photos/videos.. The US claims a higher moral ground, but offers similar treatment in different uniforms.. The US has assumed the role of world "leader", what example do we lead with? The US seeks legal loopholes to justify its violations while criticizing others for similar actions.. The US is "two-faced", do as we say, not as we do...

Too often it is too easy to rationalize bad policy as necessary to achieve a higher goal.. The US has the ability to acheive the goals without the use of inhumane tactics.. inhumane tactics don't change under differing circumstances, if it's inhumane to punish a child in a particular manner, then it's inhumane to do so to anyone. If no one is willing to evolve past this primitive thought process then this is where we will remain.

The current US administration is a seething pit of social criminals hiding behind the righteousness of professed Christianity. The American Ideal has been bought by corporate weasels, dismantled and reprocessed as "The American Machine".. we are each parts of that machine by design, if you don't fit your assigned function there will be repercussions..

The US declares itself a free society, a democracy.. and, we the governed, are given a script to play that we have become too numb to challenge.. The US was founded by people willing to die for their belief in a Government "of the people, by the people, and for the people".. now, the US is willing to subjugate other peoples to support the eco-wasteful luxuries of its own interests.. the US won't sign a global warming treaty because it's not "in our best interests".. not to mention the interests of the future of the planet..

Like the ancient Gods on Mount Olympus, the US toys in the affairs of others only where it serves their interests.. The US asserts liberating the Iraqis from oppression and dismantling an evil dictatorship, while ignoring other more grievous situations around the world.. but, the others are either too powerful to bully (China) or too resource poor (Rwanda) to warrant our sincere attention..

Abu Ghraib is just a symptom of a far more serious illness.. the decline of American values.. America's shining pinnacle was WW2, where we successfully concluded a national priority on a much larger scale with a fraction of the complaints of our own brutality.. American soldiers came home with their heads held high for a job well done.. that was when the necessity was clear, not a D.C. spin-doctor's bait and switch gimmick.. How many ways can your own gov't (US) lie, cover-up, and support corruption before you take a stand.. when do we reclaim American Dignity?

Be well...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

wolfen: No, you don't "get it"... inhumanity in any disguise is intolerable.. I only hope that the US can rise above the rest and lead by example (not the examples being displayed in the photos/videos).. your previous post is indicative of the problem, no answers, no dialogue, just mindless retort.. typical.......

I'm not attacking America.. only the clandestine US programs that make us no better than those we openly criticize... What "gets my dander up" are the pathetic people that buy this whole thing and try to rationalize the obvious inconsistencies between traditional American values and current US policy.. you know, the sheep, the rest of your flock...


So what is it really, why are you going after the Americans? Did Mickey Mouse insult your mother? Did you join Al Queda? What's your purpose here?
Go ahead you can tell me the truth don't me shy. 1) I,m not "going after America", just those that lead us by deception and corruption.. and those that follow nose to butt...

So big deal, they went a little overboard, they caught it and fixed it so what's the big deal with your Jihad here?There's the good sheep's point of view.. you should be outraged. Rhetoric like referencing my comments as "Jihad" is right out of the President's Fox News playbook.. good boy, now try thinking for yourself... asking yourself how cool it would be if was happening to you... Yeah, it's okay to screw-over foreigners, but you sheep stick together and Bah real loud when an American gets the same deal....

The US is better than that, or at least it was when i was growing up... i'm 55, i did my time in another war, another lost cause with no plan for finishing the job... i don't want my son (USMC) to become a casuality based on lies, deception and hidden agendas... so, don't tell me that since Osama led an attack on the US we need to send the military to Iran and get Sadam.. the original "mixed signal"..

The US needs to be clear in its statement of mission, transparent in its adminstration of justice and consistent in its role of leader...

Be well..

[Ou Ji]

I say clean your own house before worrying about everyone else. You want to take out dictators why not start with Washington DC?

We can't even save ourselves let alone anyone else half way around the world.

So refresh my memory, when did an invasion force hit our shores and threaten our way of life? (hint: they speak Spanish, not Arabic)

BTW

"Dictatorships are not always defined by funny hand salutes and gas chambers. The dictionary definition mentions neither, but it does mention "absolute or despotic control or power."

Is a President who argues he can do anything even if it breaks the law, and an entire cabinet who agree, exercising absolute power?

Is somebody who is above the law and whose advisors and cabinet members write memos stating he is above the law exercising absolute power?

How about totalitarianism? Definition: "a form of government in which the ruler is an absolute dictator (not restricted by a constitution or laws or opposition)."

Alberto Gonzales again put George Bush above the law today when he indicated that the administration could outright (not that they haven't been doing so in secret for decades) authorize wiretaps of domestic American citizen's phone calls without a warrant. This is a clear violation of the 4th amendment to the US Constitution."
Last Hope For Impeachment
Paul Joseph Watson/Prison Planet.com | April 8 2006

[FuXnDajenariht]

"threaten our way of life? they speech spanish and not arabic?"

oy vey...your kidding right?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Consider the following:

That the Hispanic population in the US is approaching 30% of the total.. and, of that 30% at least half are undocumented. That the first thing that the same people that claim they want to be Americans do is break US law by entering illeagally.. and, it's not just Hispanics, but anyone that refuses to use due process to gain entry into the US..

That the lawmakers are considering "amnesty" for the 11 million illegal immigrants.. so, with some reasoning skills, we can figure that without securing the borders and ports, we can expect to wait another few years and go through this same "amnesty" program again, and again..

That if 11 million illegal immigrants can find their way into the US, terrorists and their tools shouldn't have much of a problem.. if they do, they can hire Latinas to help them...

Evaluate the immigrant population centers around the US, determine where poverty and crime are most prevalent.. The evidence suggests that rather than assimillating into the US ideal, immigrants tend to bring the lower standards with them and diminsh the standard of living in the the same nation they looked to for its higher standards..

That the immigrants are turning their backs on their own countries, exporting their efforts to the US while their own countries flounder.. We should all focus on building a higher standard for all people, so they feel comfortable in their home countries.. The costs to the US taxpayer for illegal immigration could be better used to improve the status of the immigrant's home country, the higher philosophy would be to offer reasons for the aspiring immigrant to contribute to their own culture's success..

Examine and evaluate the immigration laws of the countries from which immigrants depart.. balance, would be to mirror their own country's policies.. that, alone, would cut immigration substantially..

Consider the number of lives paid for the freedom and prosperity of the US.. consider that most of those lives were laid down in defense of foreign nations (even though it served the US interest).. it is offensive, to me, that people enter this country illeagally then demand equal rights.. people whose heritage didn't pay the price for the freedoms they demand..

As i consider my own lineage, traced to immigrants from Holland and Germany around 1640 and Native Americans of the Cherokee Nation, i tend to favor due process as the most reasonable approach to controlling the American values and principles.. I am ashamed of the way my ancestors abused the Native peoples of North America, but.. that is what it is, and we have to deal with the problems we have today...

It IS a slow invasion.. people entering a country without permission, establishing a network of their own culture's values.. instituting disruptive protests and challenging the established laws of the Nation which has been slowly invaded.. invaded by people that broke laws to get here..

I reject no one's right to immigrate to the US.. but, immigration is a clear and lawful process.. have Americans lost the will to control its own Nation? Do we yield to people whose first act in the US is illeagal entry..

There are places in the US where the English language is not understood, Miami comes to mind.. One of Americas strengths is a common language.. A bi-lingual education system will undermine this basic strength.. Is it too much to ask that Americans of any cultural heritage speak the language of the nation they "chose" to live in..

~~> Steps down off soap-box~~> runs for cover~~> Be well........