View Full Version : Baguazhang Dim-Mak

Chris McKinley
03-15-2001, 08:30 AM
How many of my fellow Baguazhang practitioners study the Dim-Mak applications of their art as part of their training? Just curious.

03-15-2001, 02:51 PM
If you want to discuss Dim-Mak in a literal sense, Death Touch, then I would be hesitant to say that there is such an art. But if you want to discuss theory, than in my studies we do practice specific point striking at specific times of day. My teacher will sometimes show a strike, to the top of the head for example, and explain this one is good, but for 12:00 noon when the blood is in the crown. But what is 12:00 noon for you is not 12:00 noon for me, since I wake up to work at 4 in the morning. In order for dim mak to work in theory, one would have to have complete and intimate knowledge of the victims age, weight, eating, sleeping, physical and mental activities, medical history, etc, etc, etc. (Kinda hard to figure all this out in the time it takes for a punch!) We will also discuss the results of say a strike along a nerve path or to the chest and how to revive someone who's heart has stopped as a result, by specific striking to the back shoulders but it is mainly theory and I will hopefully never have to see it in practice. We don't really study a specific art called dim-mak, but we do at times concentrate on specific point striking and the results. Maybe a dangerous topic for and internet open forum but if you want to discuss it further, please tell us exactly what it is and how you practice it, and bring up some specifics.

wisdom mind
03-15-2001, 06:19 PM
The difference immediately between my study and the poster above is that my usage does not require times of day or location on a particular latitude.

It is based entirely on principles of TCM and acupuncture. It can all be scientifically proven and performed at any time of day no matter where you are.

My study has stressed the importance of activating the energy drainage points at the same time as a strike to ensure that the actual dim mak strike(s) will work. Varying degrees of soft power are also delved into.

Realize that if you are not an advanced practitioner or under supervision of a qualified dim mak practitioner, then this is not a study you want to get into, as you could end up killing yourself or a training partner. A light strike to the wrong area could render the body dead many days AFTER the strike occurs. Make sure you have an environment where you can learn this aspect safely.

I hope this thread blows up and the trolls go far away as the potential for a great thread is at hand...

03-15-2001, 08:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It is based entirely on principles of TCM and acupuncture. It can all be scientifically proven and performed at any time of day no matter where you are [/quote]

I am far from being an expert on TCM of which acupuncture is one of the methods of treatments. However, I know a large part of treatment and diagnosis is based on knowing the patients age, weight, eating, sleeping, physical and mental activities, medical history, etc, etc, etc. Once while being treated for a broken rib by a Chinese Doctor, after examination told me the time of day the injury occurred without asking. I was amazed. He explained because a specific weakness in a specific meridian the time of day was predictable. And in turn dictated the course of treatments. As I say, I am no expert, but the implication is obvious. The time of day even plays a factor in TCM which is of course a much different application of chi than TCMA.

Stories about Dim Mak strikes that "render the body dead many days AFTER the strike occurs" Are pure myth and one of the things that give CMA a bad name. Not only that but they are exactly the kind of food that trolls feed on. Have you ever seen such a thing occur? If you can show me facts, I am certainly open to the possibilities. I have been wrong in the past.

Sam Wiley
03-15-2001, 08:33 PM
Actually, a very large number of Dim-mak strikes do not require such knowledge.

And there are documented cases of some Dim-mak strikes causing death some days later.

For instance, there is a point just above the ear on the side of the head which will when struck hard result in a blood vessel being broken inside the head. A few days later, the patient dies for no apparent reason. But the real reason was blood on the brain or internal bleeding. All the ones that cause death some time later, that I am familiar with, cause physiological damage that causes a slow death. I have read of others which cause things like "damage to the spirit" and such, which damage takes place over a long period of time, but do not necessarily cause death.

If you had to examine every attacker that way to gain that kind of information, Dim-mak would not be good for anything self-defense-wise.

Was there something specific you wanted to discuss, Chris?

"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

wisdom mind
03-15-2001, 08:43 PM
Possibly one day I will be using meridians and farmers almanacs to muster up dim mak, that time is not now. At this time I train to knock a fool out by hitting acu-points specifically thats it.

I made a slight error, I meant TCM acu-points not puncture....

"I know a large part of treatment ..is based on knowing the patients age, weight, eating, sleeping, ..medical history, etc, etc, etc. ."



Maybe the super death touch of gamma rays needs universal allignment, I am not talking about that. My dim mak relies on hitting TCM points in groups and in specific directions.

"Have you ever seen such a thing occur?"

yes i have, will i comment on that? no i wont.
as you said, troll food...

"i got nothing to lose cause
i got nothing to prove"
--D.E.S./darkside family

[This message was edited by centerline vortex on 03-16-01 at 10:52 AM.]

03-15-2001, 08:43 PM
There are points that can be struck and result in severe damage and perhaps even death. You can learn that in just about every Northern Chinese martial art. I have a pair of needle-like bars that rotate around a finger ring (they are not piercers). You can spin them in one way to use as an object to strike the points or spin the to cover the width of the palm and block a kick or punch (no need for steel wrapped in cotton here). They are about 8 inches long and tapered but not to a sharp point. They were given to me for bagua use and brought from Taiwan in the 1980s.

What I have heard regarding dian xue ala Liu Yun Qiao (note heard, never been taught)is that the qi travels throughout the body and arrives at various points during the day and nite. For the strike to be effective, you must know time of day, what organ is weak, what organ is strong etc.. It was rumored that GM Liu had a rotating chart so if you set the time of day, then you knew what organs where weak, what organs were strong, where the qi was at, when it would arrive at the point and where to strike.

Given all of this, how does anyone know if their systems really work? Did anyone practice on an animal(I've heard some funny stories about trying to practice on dogs and cows)? I don't doubt that these things exist, but how do you know if your system works or not? I've never really thought about trying what little I know on anyone.

I was told of a story when GM Liu was in the secret service of Jiang Jieshi and was sent of to assinate a Chinese warlord who was negotiating a deal with the Japanese over territory. They got him into the meeting behind a rice paper wall. Liu leaped through and Dim mak????? No, he shot the guy with a pistol and then, with great speed, exited the house with help of the some of the servants.

I wonder, of what use is dim mak/dian xue today? Are any of us in the service of the CIA or others? I wonder if it were as truly effective as we believe, why isn't it a part of secret service training? Or is it? Perhaps it is not as efficient as today's weapons?

I just wonder why it should even be of concern to most of us as martial artists. If you use it and it works, I guess it had better be under the most dire of situations or your kungfu uniform will be one of stripes (solid orange?)

Chris McKinley
03-15-2001, 10:06 PM
Hey count,

I gotta love ya bro, but you're all mixed up when it comes to understanding Dim-Mak. I am both a Dim-Mak instructor and a TCM doc. You're simply getting the two confused, as is your instructor. From the time of the man/myth Chang San-feng, who first developed Dim-Mak, two things have been known in general. One, times of day, seasons, etc. are important to the healing side of the art and do have an amplifying effect on point strikes. Two, that it is always much much easier to disrupt the proper flow and balance of qi than to restore it.

As a result, it is not even remotely necessary to use the timing charts to correctly apply Dim-Mak strikes effectively. For artistic reasons at least, you should be aware that Dim-Mak is a historic part of the art of Baguazhang. As for specifics, I won't discuss it in the forum. I'm actually a bit choosey whom I'll teach. Not because it's any deadlier than getting kicked in the head, but because people seem to have a hard time resisting the urge to perform parlor tricks on their friends by KOing the

03-15-2001, 10:25 PM
Dim Mak is all well and good and yes Baguazhang has a complete method of Dim Mak for when a student is READY. The good ol' fashion palm, knee, elbow, head and finger strikes of Baguazhng should keep a student busy for YEARS before the need and or discussion of Dim Mak should even come up.
I'm only somewhat sure of the amount of people here besides my self that have logged on some 10+ years in the internal arts (esp.) Baguazhang in and of it's self, for the rest of you that havn't; how do you feel Dim Mak is going to help improve your Baguazhang?

Chris McKinley
03-15-2001, 10:30 PM

I think you've been watching a bit too much Van Damme and WWII spy movies. Obviously, usage of ANY empty hand method isn't as efficient as simply pulling a trigger on a gun. Also, I think you miss the point of what it can/ought to be used for. IMO, an unarmed civilian has more need to know this information than a heavily-armed gov't. operative.

Most of the points do NOT result in anything close to death, even with a full blow. The real beauty of it is as a leverage tool for women and smaller men (anyone who wishes, for that matter). It is an equalizer in a sense. Anything which helps someone defeat an attacker is a good thing

Chris McKinley
03-15-2001, 10:41 PM
Hey Sam,

Nothing specific. I just noticed that in all the discussion of Bagua in here, very little to nothing has been mentioned recently about the Dim-Mak aspects of it.

Chris McKinley
03-15-2001, 10:47 PM
Kevin, I started Taiji in 82 and Bagua in 94. I agree about their being plenty in Bagua outside of Dim-Mak to keep people busy. In fact, I look at Dim-Mak as simply icing on the cake.....you're art has to work regardless of it, and Bagua does it extremely well. I don't agree with a student necessarily having to study it for years before learning the Dim-Mak applications. I make that decision student by student. There are some students to whom I probably would never teach it, either because of lack of interest or personality matters

03-15-2001, 11:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>One, times of day, seasons, etc. are important to the healing side of the art and do have an amplifying effect on point strikes. Two, that it is always much much easier to disrupt the proper flow and balance of qi than to restore it. [/quote]

Those are the only 2 points I have made about learning dim mak. I am aware that there are blows and chokes that are knock out and I know of strikes that can totally paralize a person. Not from theory but from first hand experience. And I believe if you are learning these things the more important aspect of the study is the healing aspect, just in case.

I am not saying my instructor is infalable but I think close to 50 years doing and teaching martial arts in China, Taiwan and the United States would be enough time to learn the difference between the truth and the myths about chi. I'm not looking for a debate here. I'm just adding my point of view, which I think I did first, and only to get the discussion going. I can't help it if people want to believe you can touch someone and three days later they will drop dead. I wouldn't know how you would go about learning and practicing such a thing. But in my own personal experience, which goes back 20 years now, I have never seen such a thing. As I said before,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If you can show me facts, I am certainly open to the possibilities. I have been wrong in the past. [/quote]

03-16-2001, 03:37 PM

You may very well be correct in your assessment of what you consider dim mak, however, I have yet to see anyone document a death due to this technique.

Look over the posts. Not one has been documented. As far as the mythology you describe as the basis for dim mak, or more properly dian xue, Chang San-feng has never been proven even to exist and the neijia framework is on relatively shakey grounds. You can read Jerry Allan Johnson's text for another view.

Bottom line, for those who know these techniques, who have any of you "killed" recently?
You don't need dim mak to knock someone out. So what is your point about dim mak? You really don't know if it works or not?

You miss my point. Indeed you may have the techniques, however, in today's society dim mak, as death touch, serves no useful purpose other than a lot of egos. Beyond that, once again, what's the point of claiming dim mak and then shrouding it in such great secrecy? Whose going to use it and for what purposes would you use it?

You can see these posts are about to end in a flame out which tells me that this is all about bragging rights. If you have the dim mak, dian xue, and the mythology of Chang San-feng serves you well, then so be it.

fiercest tiger
03-18-2001, 01:07 AM
how many people here are erle montague or dillman students?
how can we really tell if we are dim mak masters?

have you killed someone with a delayed death touch, montague tells that his young daughters knock him out and doing dim mak on him, still he isnt dead. no disrespect for mr montague but in oz he is not very popular or that good in this case. sorry sam if i have insulted your sifu no intention of doing that, but only telling you how it is here.

it is all good to read accupuncture points like erle and dillman, but doesnt make them dim mak masters.



Sam Wiley
03-18-2001, 09:24 AM
The phrase "Dim-Mak does not actually mean "death touch" and there are a lot of Dim-Mak applications for a lot of moves that do not kill the person. They are classified as Dim-Mak simply because they utilize acupuncture points in the usage, and the effects in some cases cannot be accounted for except by referencing Chinese Medicine theories and acupuncture.

I have never heard Erle state that his children practice any deadly techniques on him, though I have heard him say that he lets them knock him out to get the feel of it. I believe you are mistaken as to your interpretation of his words.

I have seen and felt the effects of Dim-Mak strikes Erle teaches. I assure you that his stuff works.

Sun Lu-Tang reputedly said that if he had to kill someone to gain students, he would rather not teach, or something like that. Erle has said similar. He's a lot less brazen than he was several years ago. I have noticed interesting changes in the man over the past few years, myself. But one thing is for certain, he no longer knocks his students or volunteers out for demonstrations. People say he can't do it or isn't that good at it because of that. But that's not the case. The reason he doesn't do it is because he nearly killed someone during the demonstration once. He knocked him out and the guy almost didn't wake up. I have also heard him mention other people teaching the same stuff who had accidents during demonstrations and nearly killed someone, and also that there was one case where a guy tried out a kidney KO on his girlfriend (or someone close to him anyway) and killed her.

I rarely try my qi disruption skills anymore because a friend of mine who I tried them on regularly developed a terminal disease for which doctors could find no cause. That scares the **** out of me, just the thought that regularly disrupting someone's qi without even touching them or anything can **** them up. I don't know for certain that made him sick, but it scares the **** out of me anyway.

I also have had accidents with training partners where I only tapped them and the effects were profound. I have been struck on Colon meridian points on my arm and developed the most painful cramps, cold sweat, and diarrhea you could possibly imagine. My skin actually changed to a light green shade. I have also been struck so hard on the thigh that my entire leg went numb, as well as my torso on the same side, all the way up into my rib cage, and my vision blurred so badly I could not crawl back into the house.

And all the effects I later found were ones Erle Montaigue said would happen when struck on those points in the same directions.

Furthermore, I can think of several reasons why Erle is not very popular in Australia, and most of them do not have anything directly to do with the martial arts. Erle has a habit of ****ing people off who deserve to be ****ed off. I know he has said some things that upset some prudes in your society down there, but just because he made a little dirty joke and they got offended not because he said anything specific, but because the images that popped into their heads were quite obscene and rarely seen outside of fetish vodeos, doesn't mean he's no good at what he does. Popularity does mean skill, nor does being skilled mean someone is popular.

And Dillman?...whatever. I have heard people who have met him say they don't like him for various reasons. And from what Erle says, he ****ed this guy off at a seminar he (Dillman) was teaching and Dillman broke his finger. He doesn't sound very nice to me.

Anyway, I have very sound reasons for trusting in Erle, many of which I have never mentioned to anyone here. You are free to believe anything you want, of course.

"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

fiercest tiger
03-18-2001, 10:49 PM
i am sure erle can knock people out, like most. i dont know the joke he said in oz, but it may have been the other way around. i didnt say he ****ed people off, probably did :D but he was a fat taiji teacher that wasnt really respected for his art. i took a few classes when i was around 16yrs old, he is a very nice man, although out of the blue he comes out with taiji dim mak after the dillman explosion here in oz. he jumped on the ban wagon and made money good for him.

i attended his dim mak in oz in 1993-4 and it was accupuncture points and it was new to him, because he said this point and hit this point. didnt know the name of the points then i think. but i respect that he is going well and has made a good name for himself.

his chi disruption forms, where did he learn these?

thanks sam



Chris McKinley
03-19-2001, 12:26 AM
fiercest tiger,

Did you just wake up or something? From your post here, you seem a bit groggy. You see, Montaigue was marketing Dim-Mak years before Dillman ever went public with his version aka Kyusho-Jitsu. As for your training with him, if that is true, it's a shame you didn't stick around enough to learn what the flying fignewton you were talking about.

As for his not remembering points.....it happens occasionally to the best of them. I'm a TCM doc myself, and the wise ones have plenty of reference material on hand at all times. With all of the points and the minutiae to remember about each one, occasional lapses in memory are likely to happen. It's also not necessary to remember the names of points in order to use them correctly.

Your neophytic questions regarding Dim-Mak belie your ignorance of the subject. Ignorance of it isn't in and of itself a bad thing, but only becomes so when you attempt to pass yourself off as a credible source of valid criticism.

03-19-2001, 01:42 AM
I don’t know what Montague does but unfortunately for us, Dillman was the one to put Dian Mai (Dim Mak) on the map. He learned some stuff from a guy named Hohan Soken in Okinawa and later some stuff from a guy named Seiyu Oyata. Both of these guys are old school. Oyata is still alive and is based somewhere in MS I think. He is the real expert around here not Dillman. Once here in town, He lined up several Karate black belts in a row and went down the line knocking them all out. I’m not into showmanship but I know some of those guys and they are the “fight first, talk later”, redneck, punch you really hard types. Oyata apparently got his stuff from a guy named Uehara who learned from a family lineage called Motobu-Ryu. It’s not at all like Karate and is more like Bagua or Aikido.

Anyway, I have no doubt that the stuff works. There are still some guys doing Dian Mai. The problem is that people think that they can fight with it without putting in the foundational training that we all know is requisite to real skill in the martial arts. I’ve never met a person that could generate the kind of power that Oyata can (even at his advanced age). His Dian Mai is only supplementary to his real skill of punching you in half or breaking your bones with no obvious power.

From what I understand, Yin fu lineage uses needles to poke you in the points but I have never actually seen this or any other type of demonstatable Dian Mai in the Chinese community. Somehow it's been relegated to the mystical skills (like blowing out a candle from across the room with the point of a finger).

Does anybody have any experience with this from a Chinese artist?

By the way, don't try the techniques that dillman teaches in a fight. Most of them are basic techniques that only work on people who are standing there!

Chris McKinley
03-19-2001, 02:14 AM
I do, although why it should matter that he's Chinese, I'm not sure. Li Xian is my TCM mentor and also my first neijia instructor. Over the years, I've seen, and done, both sides of the art...healing as well as combat.

Erle Montaigue teaches Taijiquan and Baguazhang. I'm somewhat surprised that you are aware of Dim-Mak and yet haven't heard of him, but that's neither here nor there. The Okinawan styles which contain Kyusho-Jitsu got that way because of centuries of more open trade with China than mainland Japan enjoyed, especially from southern China. It is therefore no surprise that the more fluid and supple Okinawan arts are also the ones which contain information on Dim-Mak/Kyusho-Jitsu.

fiercest tiger
03-19-2001, 02:37 AM
look im not trying to put down montague but have you seen his early tapes before dim mak intricacies etc. his techniques were poor, there were no points nothing it was a joke.
he has now become the american godfather of dim mak!! oh well, you guys are easily mislead in the states. his skill now maybe a whole lot better i hope, or we are talking about another erle montague.

im no dim mak master, i dont believe anyone is because you need to prove it! we hit guys standing there and off a punch or a kick and knock them out, drain energy , yin and yang theories, 5 elements. each kung fu system has different points names and sometimes effects. accupuncture is moderfied for these dim mak masters to make them look good. anyone can learn it.

goodluck in your dim mak!



Sam Wiley
03-24-2001, 04:26 PM
It may very well be true that Erle could not name any of the points back then. He may not remember all the names now. Hell, I don't even remember them and I am constantly referring to books on the subject. What is important is that I know exactly where to strike, in which direction, and the correct amount of power to use. I know it because my body remembers even if I forget all the little technicalities like the names.

Erle used to not teach Dim-Mak. In fact, when he first started he tried to leave it pretty basic. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, other teachers who also have point striking knowledge have given out far less detail than Erle.

I honestly don't understand what his weight has to do with anything, yet I hear this same comment being made by many people. Yang Cheng Fu was way fatter than Erle. In fact, Erle has made jokes about how fat Cheng Fu was. (Not directly, but you know exactly what he's talking about.)

Erle did not just come out of the blue with the stuff, though. If the interviews with his master translated and posted on his site are real, then his master made a reference to Dim-Mak in one of those interviews.He said there were two ways to use Taiji. One was the normal martial arts way, where we break bones, joints, and stuff like that. The other was "too sinister" for him to discuss publicly. He may not have used the words Dim-Mak, but that's it nonetheless.

In any case, it is not necessary to kill someone with the stuff to prove that one is competent in its use or has mastered a system. I used to hear fantasy tales about how you had to kill someone to get certain dan rankings in Karate when I was a kid. But I have yet to meet any 3rd or 5th dan Karateka who have killed anyone.

I agree that there are many out there who believe they can fight using a few point strikes with no real skill to back them up. I learned that the hard way several years ago. I was discussing point striking with a friend who practiced Karate, and he challenged me to perform a move he knew I could not possibly pull off. Except he did not just prove I could not do it. He punched me in the chest once all my attention was focused on atriking the points so hard he stopped my heart. When I could get up off the floor, I made the decision that I wanted the skills to back up all the point striking stuff. I found a system I liked, and work all I can to become a better fighter without the Dim-Mak. I consider that an extra now, not the be all end all of martial arts techniques.

And by the way, the reason his stuff looks like it has changed is because it has. It's called growth. It's advancement.

"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

03-24-2001, 05:00 PM
I was taught the body's internal energy clock is constant and universal, regardless of personal sleep patterns.

"Death-touching" and "energy disruption" are definitely not the property of CMA alone, although I can't prove that the skills that have developed in these other nations' martial arts did not originate in China.

Sam Wiley
03-24-2001, 09:23 PM
I don't think that the internal clock is consistent like that. I personally think that it changes with our sleep, eating, bathroom and other habits. For instance, If you go to bed around 11 pm and get up at 7, then the meridian times charts will pretty much be accurate for you. But if you are a night owl they will be different. Also, the clock can change if you change your habits dramatically.

I also think that the time charts have more to do with healing than with point striking. It would make no sense for the system to depend on being able to strike points most effective at the particular instant you are attacked. Only an idiot would depend on a system like that. I mean, would you study a system that told you that you could only use Rollback at certain times of the day? That's the kind of bull we're talking about.

"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

fiercest tiger
03-25-2001, 09:35 AM
i have had a few of erles guys train at my school and become my students, im sure he knows his points better than me. the interview with his teacher is another thing that is funny, also he said he has a masters degree in china, the certificate was of his demo in china push hands, forms etc. there was something here in oz about this certificate that was talked about and wasnt all the truth.

he is a good man and loves his students, as long as you are happy mate. sorry if i disrespected your sifu.
where did he learn the chi disruption from? :)



Sam Wiley
03-26-2001, 09:35 PM
Erle says he learned the first 4 forms of the system from his teacher, Chang Yiu-chun, and that he learned the rest of the system from the current head of the system, a man whose name he spells Liang Shih-khan. His spelling is pretty wierd, but he has never used any of the normal systems of spelling. Anyway, he says that Liang lives near Wudang Shan. He also learned a system of push hands-like exercises from Liang, corresponding to each of the qi disruption forms.

I just thought of something. Not only do several of the qi disruption forms contain moves from Bagua and Taiji, but the Wudang "push hands" exercise he has posted on the the net is almost exactly the same movement as one of the sequences from his old Yang form, called "moving hands like willow tree". (It's a penetration punch, backfist, kick parry and double palm attack.) It's also very similar to a move in the old Yang form that comes right before Bend Bow to Shoot Tiger. Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there.

Anyway, I'm glad that those students have found the teacher they're meant to be with. Erle actually encourages people to look into other systems. That's one of the reasons.

"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

Kempo Guy
03-27-2001, 12:32 AM
Just as a note, Taika Oyata learned most of his material from Kenyu Uhugusuku and Wakinaguri. He did associate with Uehara of Motobu Ryu and was his training partner but does not claim to have learned Kyusho from him, but rather Mr. Wakinaguri. Taika Oyata was also a student of Shigeru Nakamura whose forms (kata) he still teaches.

Just my $0.02.


03-27-2001, 04:56 AM
I'd just like to give my input to this discussion

To say that there's been no documentation i'd have to disagree. while it's not in the american daily
Newspapers, it is out there. for example: when asked on the subject By R.W. Smith, Chang Man ching related a story. Back in the early days
(1920's) when he did platform fighting He even fought to a draw Famed natural fist Grandmaster Tu Hsin Wu. From this time forward he gain in fame.
After some years of experiance and attainment.
A famed martial artist challanged him. They mete
and Chang defeated him. Before leaving the said in
three years i'll be back. Chang's respect for the man's skill was such that chang went and studied
under a very famous master at the time. the 3yrs
where up but the man never showed up. and to add to this, He was asked why didn't he teach it?
he said because he'd learned only the injurous
side of the technique in respect for the challanger.he'd have had to spend double the time to learn the healing side. he was on a path.

now if your a person of the age to know about Chang Man Ching. When he was alive!
Except for certain individuals, he was the best fighter in tiwan. totallt undefeated. but yet he went to study Duan Xue. What does that meanto
the death touch credability. If such a man would learn it after reaching such a level, it specks for it self. also i got this from the man himself,
Kwan Sai hung The Wandering taoist, Told in his autobiography, while a part of a team trying to catch a renegade, the renegade was a killer and the method used was Dim Mak. He learned it and he's seen it. And has taught on a 4th of what he knows


Why hasn't this subject come up? Because like Kevin said Most of the people on this forum don't have better than 10yrs in the arts. And thier level in it is where we are.

But like you chris,
I choose by the individual, not by the years.
I just don't want to waste my time.

just to give some input to the topic.


03-27-2001, 05:15 AM
Excuse my in put here.
I didn't realize that there were two pages, and was responding to the first.
Also i Don't know why my post looks like this.
(typeo) I hope yall could understand it.

03-27-2001, 05:43 AM

I do not think there is any doubt about the potential of dian xue but with regard to those who claim to have it, how do they know they have it? There is no ultimate way to prove it legally short of striking someone, waiting for their death, and the coroner perform an autopsy, verifying the reason of death with the predictions of the strike.

The article you refer, I believe, also states that the training is very intense and Chang Man-Ching abandoned efforts after 3 years.

Over the years, I have seen so many so-called Masters make outrageous claims about dian xue. Who are they really serving? Their egos?

Many systems teach various points to strike---Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming, Dr. Jerry Allan Johnson (who head a TCM school) are examples of a few. Over the years, I have seen this taught in bagua, praying mantis, taiji. I think the claim of dian xue serves a lot of bragging and my main point is that even if you attain the expertise, it is not likely you will ever use it in your lifetime. Why? Because if you succeed, you better have a great defense lawyer or you'll be practicing kung fu with a ball and chain (hmmm like the founder of Xing Yi?).

So unless you have tried out your technique and killed someone, you really do not know if you have it. Anything less than a kill may not be attributable to dian xue---you can knock out people many ways and damage people many ways without reference to points.

So in the end, why do martial artists run around around telling people of their expertise in dian xue? Can you get certified in it? Rhetorically, what master are we serving

Sam Wiley
03-27-2001, 08:24 PM
I ask you again, why would one have to prove they have it by killing someone? That is like saying "prove you can drive by racing in a Nascar race." That's the art in the extreme. There are other things that can be done to show you have it. A KO under realistic conditions would be one of them, though that is still extreme.

I have trained with people who I had attack me full force so I could learn the feel of the technique in a more realistic scenario. Many of them felt drained after a simple block and had to sit down. I didn't even get to practice the technique before they had to rest or cradle their arm from the pain. Others, I reacted so quickly that I hit a point on accident instead of pulling the strike, and had to look up antidotes to it before they became sick.

Anyway, you guys will believe what you want about the stuff, so I'm not going to try and convince you too hard. Like when I was over at my friend Terry's house eating dinner with his family, and I told them I was too full to eat any more, and his father said, "good, leaves more for me." :)

"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

03-28-2001, 06:55 PM
"prove you can drive by racing in a nascar race"

No, the analogy is quite the opposite. Its like claiming you have the skill to drive in a nascar race, i.e. the skill of dian xue, yet arguing you can simply demonstrate possesion of this skill by driving in a stock car race.

You may know how to drive the car, understand the physics and mechanics of the car and road, but until you put the pedal to the floor in a nascar race, you really do not know if you have the skill to successfully compete or even win in a nascar race. To claim a supreme mastery of dian xue today, requires a great leap of faith.

I do not know if this is true or not but I heard that in the development of TCM, the mapping of the acupuncture points were often performed on prisoners---testing to see the effect of stimulating or blocking a point. In one dynasty, supposedly one of the early emperors had his doctors skin people alive in an attempt to map out the circulation of qi. If true, I suspect that dian xue was experimented and practiced on, the unlucky souls who were captured in battle.

Not publishable by today's standards, I suppose

03-28-2001, 07:13 PM
Yes, Bob, rather gruesome to put through the peer review process . . .

03-28-2001, 07:22 PM

Hell, I can't even get any of my students to volunteer for extra credit on this one!

The cats and dogs in the neighborhood avoid me like hell too!

I think I'll just give up this dian xue kick and go back to practicing my palm strikes on the good old dog skin!

Sam Wiley
03-28-2001, 07:54 PM
Dim-Mak is the very beginning, not the end. There are things more awesome than it, and much more advanced. If you think Dim-Mak is the ultimate end or goal, then your view is limited, I would say. Maybe that is what people do not understand, that it is merely the beginning.

I think of Dim-Mak like the black belt in Karate. It is not nearly the end, it is merely the beginning of an in depth study. And mastery of the art does not come until later, though Dim-Mak would be a prerequisite for mastering it anyway.

"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

03-28-2001, 08:04 PM
I am aware if jie mo, na nai, and dian xue. If dian xue is simply the beginning, then please, by all means tell us where it ultimately leads. I'm all ears!

However, if this leads to a discussion of kong jing, then we can stop here. That really presses the limits of verifiability.

Sam Wiley
03-29-2001, 07:59 AM
I don't believe in kong jing, either. Hell, as outlandish as I get, I still laugh at it.

But the things beyond Dim-Mak I don't talk about on the net. In fact, I don't even talk about them in person. Except for healing touch and stuff, because healing is always a higher goal.

"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

03-29-2001, 06:50 PM
I thought so. You've proven me correct. End of the story.

03-30-2001, 07:10 AM
unity and responsibilty for the universe?

03-30-2001, 07:11 AM

Sam Wiley
04-01-2001, 11:27 PM
No RAF, it is not the end of the story. I do not talk about them on the net because they are best discussed in person, and I consider them highly personal matters. I simply do not want to talk about them with people who have not had the same or similar experiences. I talked this weekend with a man who had had similar experiences and we could speak about them in depth. They are all estoric, and all need subjective experience and not objective scientific explanation. My argument against you right now might go something like the Christian argument that says just because you can't prove God exists doesn't mean he doesn't, since it seems you want to say that there is nothing beyond it simply because I will not tell you what is beyond it. There are some things you must find yourself, and there are some things you simply must experience for yourself. I cannot tell you how much or what lays beyond it for you for several reasons, the least of which is that I do not know how far you are willing to go. Some of the things I am referring to might be classified as the "dark side" of the energetic arts (which is exactly how this guy I talked with this weekend referred to it when we were talking).

In the end, you will go only so far as you are willing. You will progress only until you are no longer willing to sacrifice to learn. And how far you go will be limited by what you believe. I think I'll leave it at that.

"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

Water Dragon
04-04-2001, 05:53 PM
OK, I've never gotton into these arguments but this stuff is getting ridiculous. Sam, if your profile is correct, you are 24 years old and have practiced 7 years. There is no way you could have learned Dim Mak, you don't have enough time in. At 7 years, assuming you trained hard AND correctly the whole time, you just couldn'y be there yet.

You could hit hard as hell, be able to accurately target broad vital points and may be able to pull off some decent chin na. But dim mak, no.

I'm not trying to cut on you. If the content of your posts is any indication to your personality, you sound like a real cool guy. But re read what you write and try to see it from a 3rd party perspective. It may sound a little different to you then.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

04-04-2001, 07:17 PM
Water Dragon:

Sam is right, that the board is no place for discussions of this nature. There is too much room for misunderstanding.

For example, my own dealings with one doctor of TCM and one doctor of TCM out of Beijing over the last 5 years, indicates that qi moves from various organs and points every 2 hours and for the death touch(not simply to hurt them) you need to strike at the point where the qi has accumulated at that time in order for the death strike to be successful. Now if you read over these posts, others, fullly credentialed, make a far different claim. Whose TCM theory and practice is right?

No one can convince the other and so everything collapeses into name calling, my dad can beat your dad i.e. my knowledge of Chinese medicine is better than your knowledge of Chinese medicine. So what the hell. Doesn't matter who is right, does it? Again, I am not sure what all this discussion serves other than bragging rights and ego. No one will change their practice as a result of these discussions. I sure won't and would not expect others to do so.

So on with other topics, in the end, none of really matters. You don't need dian xue to beat the **** out of anyone. Who really wins in fight today? The lawyers

Sam Wiley
04-04-2001, 07:26 PM
There are things not in my profile, such as the fact that I have been practicing qigong far longer than I have practiced Taiji or Bagua. I practiced different Chinese standing qigongs for over a year before learning any Taiji, and before that I practiced several different systems of eosteric breathing practices from other cultures. (I was the wierd kid with some odd religious, magic, hypnosis or meditation book with me all the time.) And unlike the rest of the Taiji community (it seems) I started with learning fa-jing and energy transference in conjunction with even more qigong and honing of my reflexes.

You say I'm too young. If I were 80, you would say I started too late. There's always something.

I have always said that if you do not believe me, you are welcome to try me out and see the truth. I have been saying that since day one. Sure, I'm not the best, I'm not a master, but I can do it. It only takes a couple of years to be able to do it. It's only to master it that it takes a lifetime. And admittedly, I'm no master yet.

Have you ever considered that I'm completely mad and that everything I write is bull? Have you ever considered that I'm the most successful troll you've ever seen? It's possible, you know. :D

On the other hand, have you ever considered coming to train with me and seeing if what I have works instead of telling me what I do and don't know, or what I can and cannot possibly know?

Just a thought... :D

"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

Water Dragon
04-04-2001, 07:37 PM
RAF, agreed 100 %. However, the time spent training the death touch is time you're not focusing on other stuff. Historically the death touch is an advanced level skill. To me, that means most people don't have it. Those that do most likely have a head full of gray hair if they have any at all. They also had to find someone to teach it to them which is no small feat in itself. They also need to master a lot of other advanced stuff to get to that point.

A brief summary

1. If you're studying the dreaded Dim Mak, you're probabbly kidding yourself and could use that time and energy better

2. I really am sick and tired of Gong Fu getting no respect because everyone sees people talking about all this crap and when asked to prove it, they just can't produce.

3. I know I won't change any minds. But maybe some new guy will read this post, it will make sense to them, and they will develop real Gong Fu relatively quickly by focusing on solid basics and progressing from there.

4. My biggest ability in CMA came at the point when I became able to distinguish between the treasures and the crap. It took me about 6 years to get there,

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

Sam Wiley
04-04-2001, 07:48 PM
Oops...looks like we were all typing at about the same time there.

Anyway, you must remember the distinction between the person who wants to add the skill to their own art or who learns the skill as a part of their art, and the person who decides to pick up a book and poke people in points to make them die.

There's a difference.

"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

wisdom mind
04-04-2001, 08:10 PM
ok so we have a debate...... how much does intent play into the use and application of dim mak?

[This message was edited by centerline vortex on 04-05-01 at 11:16 AM.]

04-04-2001, 08:14 PM
Water Dragon:

There is a lot that I agree with in your post. I have seen a lot of mystical BS, especially with those who claim dian xue and kong jing and many fools get parted from their money.

I know there is a lot more that can be done in the basics and I suspect that is the place to hang out. Too much time and energy has been expended on this particular area.

The so-called mystical is to be experienced, not discussed. Basics are where its at and if you stay on them long enough, you might be surprised at what one discovers.

Take good care

04-05-2001, 12:37 AM
>>ok so we have a debate...... how much does intent play into the use and application of dim mak?<<<

Think of it as punching somebody, if you don't intend or really mean to do it, then chances are its not going to be near effective as if you really meant it.

04-05-2001, 01:23 AM

Can you elaborate on that? ;- )

Are you high or what?

Sam Wiley
04-05-2001, 04:21 PM
The key to that is in the reptile brain.

When we as humans drop into the reptile brain, concious thought stops. Emotions as well stop, including aggression. The only thing that is left is primal instinct and reflex. Fight or flight.

If we intend to just hit someone, then we do not intend to do everything necessary to survive, even if that is the situation. (Though my belief is that it's pretty hard to supress the survival instinct when it really comes down to it. Even the gentlest souls will kill to survive if they really have to.) If we intend to hurt someone, then we are emotionally involved in the strike, and that is wrong. That means that we have taken emotional offense at something the person has done (as if in the cosmic scheme of things it mattered).

But if logical thought and emotion are filtered out, and all that is left is the bare essentials of the survival instincts, then there is no intent to simply hit someone and move on, nor is there any emotional significance in the struggle. What we are left with is intent unmarred by logic and emotion.

The intent then, is pure, and there is no real thought accompanying it, just as we become emotionally detached from the struggle. We become locked into his energy, and can only back off if he does. We will also only attack if we feel threatened enough, like if he becomes violent and steps too close for our survival brain's comfort. It's like a rattlesnake. The rattler doesn't think to itself that it must do this or die, nor does it think that if it bites the ankle maybe this human will leave it alone. The rattler also does not hate the person or the ankle and does not strike out of emotion. It strikes because the person steps too close and may have stepped on it, so it strikes out of necessity. It will then back off and wait for the human to either reattack (read: step closer) or for the human to refuse to back off, before it strikes again.

Anyway, I'm not sure how to explain it other than talking about the reptile brain. It's something you have to feel. I can tell you what I have experienced, though. I was sparring with a friend one time, and things got a bit out of hand. He hit me and everything just sort of went into slow motion, I could hear but not quite understand what he was saying, and after he backed off, I just kept waiting for him to step in closer. Every time he would, I'd take a step in. I don't remember everything, but I do remember him eventually backing off all the way across the room. The whole time, every time he would come closer, I could feel my intent rise and drive me toward him. It was almost like some part of me was going "killkillkill" every time he got too close.

If you do the training to bring out this part of your mind, then you will actually feel the intent. But yes, intent should play a large part in striking death points. If you are going to train to strike vital points and kill someone, you'd better train to bring out the intent, and you'd better train to go into your survival mode. This is the kind of stuff you do if it turns into a fight for your life. You don't do it just to hurt someone, and you don't do it to show off, and you don't do it to win a tournament.

If you want, I can post a few methods of bringing out this part of you, and you will feel the intent if you keep escalating the situation (which can get dangerous). Just let me know.

"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

04-15-2001, 05:56 PM
An interesting tale. Consider the following from The Essence of Internal Martial Arts: Esoteric Fighting Techniques and Healing Methods by Master Instructor Jerry Alan Johnson.


Chapter 23: Death Touch: Ssu Ch'u Chueh

This system is called "Ssu Ch'u Chueh and is a highly specialized art of killing without leaving a trace, divided into 3 separate categories.

1. The first level is called T'ien Ching which is the method of attacking the nerves and nerve plexus of the body in order to produce paralysis. This also includes spinal paralysis.

2. The next category is called T'ien Hsueh (dian xue in pinyin) which is the method of striking the blood vessels in order to seal the veins and arteries or cause blood clots.

3. The final category is called T'ien Hsing Ch'i which is the method of attacking the ch'i meridians of the body in order to cause death at a later date by blocking chi circulation.

pp. 163-164.

Chapter 24: Attacking the Nerves: T'ien Ching

Striking the nervious system is usually the first level and the most common way of self defense.

In this chapter, Master Instructor Johnson lays out, in diagram, all of the nerves and on pp.184-85 lays out the ways of healing paralysis.

Chapter 25: Attacking the Blood Vessels: T'ien Hsueh

Striking the opponent in order to manipulate, seal, or destroy his blood vessels and gates is usually the second level of Ssu Ch'u Chueh.

The art of T'ien Hsueh is governed by a 24-hour, five season and twelve major organ cycles. All three are extremely important. In the 24 hour cycle the BLOOD AND CHI pas through the 12 meridians. Each has a time period of 2 HOURS each day consisting of high and low tide. This is of primary importance in terms of the circulation of chi and will be explained later. In 24 hours the blood passes through 12 major organis of teh body: gall bladder, liver, lungs, large intestine, stomach, spleen, heart, small intestine, bladder, kidney, brain and testciles. This flow is not regular. At high tide it will roar through the veins likde a tidal wave, while at low tide, it will seep through like a tricling stream. STRIKING THESE ORGANS WILL CAUSE INFLUENTIAL POINTS TO STAGNATE AND SOMETIMES REVERS THE FLOW OF ENERGY AND BLOOD. THIS TYPE OF ATTACK CAN ONLY SUCCEED IF THE INTERNAL ENERGY IS DIRECTED EXACTLY AT THE POINT, THE MEMENT WHEN THE CHI AND BLOOD ARE AT A MAXIMUM.. . . .


The Chinese discovered very long ago that the cyclical movement of energy and blood in the huma body is time-related and undergoes a waxing and waning process. Examples of body fluctuation in accordance with natures rhythms are numerous. fluctuations in corticosterone (thats why they believe most asthma attacks occur at night or at around 4:00 am) and palsm ATCh levels in the body following a cyclel pattern during the course of the day have been well documented (from my days in biology, he is correct). The jet lag phenomenon is nknow to take palce due to the interruption of circadian rhythms in teh body.

He then goes on to lay out the times





25-6 T'ien Chang Fu: Striking the Major Organs

The chang or Yin organs are considered solid organs wheras the Fu or Yang organs are considered hollow organs. Both should be struck with an expanding Fa-Chin or exploing eneregy when the organs are full. The eneregy is regulated into either expansion or contraction by the controlling the electromagneticflow of particls via the MINDS INTENT ISSUING OUTWARD THROUGH THE ARMS. The best time to strike the Chang-Fu organs is when they are full if you goal is to destroy the major organ itself.

Lungs-strike on inhalation (Peak time: 2-5 am)
heart & Pericardium-strike during physical exertion when the heart rate is up or between 11-1 pm (peak time: 11:00am-1pm)

The list goes on in more detail. He illustrates where to strike glands, he lists 36 fatal points, they are illustrated with herbal formula antidotes. Shows in great detail knockout points.

His last chapter on attacking the body's energy is most interesting in that these strategies disrupt the electromagnetic field of the body.

Okay, the end, at least for now. Is Master Jerry Alan Johnson accurate or not? I do not know him personally so for me its unverifiable. If he is the real thing, then this whole topic is extremely complicated and the actual application is based on historical anecdotes or faith that you have trained well enough to carry out such strikes: There are not very many times you get to practice these techniques over and over again, like, say a form or punching. If this is a fake then another interesting tale to be told.

This weekend I heard of a guy who went to such a school and was taught all of these techniques. Later, most of the students discovered that their so-called teacher (not nationally known, a local and quite rich) was taking it right out of the books and tapes of Jerry Alan Johnson. The teacher told them that he was an indoor student--why? The students threatened to go and ask if he really knew this stuff. The teacher responded that Johnson would deny it, since they were all members of a so-called secret society. Many students quit and many stayed. So faith still plays a major role in the martial arts.

If this material is accurate, then there are no secrets, to steal a phase. If it is inaccurate, then this guy is a helluva of writer and should be in the martial arts movies.

What's your take :eek:

04-15-2001, 07:34 PM
Chris and Sam,,
you guys have covered just about everthing!! But you know me! I just cant hold it any longer.

Water Dragon-
You are totally wrong on the fact that dim-mak is only some advanced stuff that is a waste of time and is not practical. I teach mainly the dim-mak aspect of taijiquan/baguazhang, in my expeiriance teaching students learn how to use dim-mak strikes at a reactive level is VERY easy. These strikes do not kill, but simply render the attacker KO'd. These are the best type of techniques to teach to women, and smaller men who can use them immediately againsnt someone much bigger. Of course if you add in the use of the reptile brain and fa-jing, as sam said you have a dangerous cocktail.
As for it being effective, after myself learning some points-ect. for only 6 months, I used a strike to knock someone out who pulled a knife on me! As far as the accuall DEATH strikes, I have spoken to doctors who have confirmed they are medically sound. Also I "Allegedly" know of persons unknown affiliated with such agency's unknown that have USED these death strikes, and for obvious reasons cannot document there effect.Im done for now!!!

Water Dragon
04-15-2001, 10:24 PM
Oh yes, of course, I completely understand why you cannot comment on said agencies. Especially with the conspiracy going on. You know, the aliens crashing into our plane and blaming it on the Chinese.

You are teaching women how to be raped and killed to fulfill some fantasy. I'm sorry to everyone else on this board because I know how I'm sounding right now, but that is terrible. How can you feed that crap to a trusting individual, especially a woman and place her in a situation where she will be much more than just beaten when it fails and it will.

I won't post on this topic anymore, there is no point. But that crap just makes me sick!

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

04-15-2001, 11:20 PM
Water Dragon, what can I say? On target.

RAF, if I understand what your post is saying, it would seem Sifu Johnsons line of thought falls pretty much in line with what I have been taught about Dim Mak. I will have to read more!ˇ

04-15-2001, 11:36 PM
Sorry waterdragon,
I didnt mean to spark a psychodic episode! I have used the techniques I teach to save my own life, and if you dont beleive in "said agencies" then you are a complete idiot. I have been working for the government for 4 years,and have seen and heard enough for a lifetime.
Also a person with such limited knowledge should not demean the taiji classics by quoting them after such ego driven rantings. I invite you to come to my school and see the dim-mak's applications hands-on!the location is Tinker Air Force Base, Ok. I personnally do not attack anyones art unless I have seen it first hand. Sam is in georgia( might be closer), he is an instructor under the same organization, he might give you free demo as well.

04-16-2001, 12:17 AM

Precisely what I was thinking. In a sense, that is how I verify what I have picked up over the years. There is a lot more detail in the book, especially with regard to palm training. Most of my palm training is in pigua zhang and the underlying principle of the strikes is jie mai (stop the blood flow). Master Johnson also has a bagua chart just like the one you posted.

So, I have at least 2 maybe three sources that support what I have been taught out of the Wu Tang lineage.

The truth be known, if I knock someone out, I won't really know whether it was dian xue or simply the power itself. In baji and also the sword, there are a number of points we strike with the palm. Even in GM Liu's taiji there are some points which are struck. However, the probability that I will ever use these techniques is ever so slim. No one bothers me and I don't bother anyone, also.

If Johnson is a fake, then maybe I'll have to rethink what I have learned.

Sam Wiley
04-16-2001, 03:19 AM
Hey Gary,
I wouldn't bother. I have gathered information from a lot of sources and people just don't believe it. Unless it's someone they can look up in the phone book and argue with themselves, they don't want to hear it. But hey, if he's willing to come all the way to GA to feel it work, I'm up for it.

With regards to the statement about giving something like this to trusting people who could get hurt: whatever. Taijiquan works with reflex actions, is powered by the entire body during the strike, and the strikes are aimed at the body's natural vulnerable points. Now I ask you to tell me how you could possibly go wrong using something like that.

Anyway, gotta go.

"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

Mr. Nemo
04-16-2001, 05:04 AM
"As far as the accuall DEATH strikes, I have spoken to doctors who have confirmed they are medically sound."

What doctors are these, and where can I find information on this?

04-16-2001, 08:02 PM
hey Nemo,
What doctors? Well just my local US air force doctors.There are very obvious dim-mak strikes that will cause death, such as rupturing the small and large meningeal arteries causing blood to flood the brain. Others include the carotid sinus strike st.9, which besides its instant KO effect can also induce a heart attack, because this controls blood flow in the body. Also there are strikes to injure the brain stem,ect..these are the most evident, for more points and detailed info go to www.taijiworld.com (http://www.taijiworld.com) there you can look at point location diagrams, and order Erle Montaigues "encyclopedia of dim-mak" this a very good reference guide that will show the points, damage, healing.ect. If you have any other specific questions feel free to email me,

04-16-2001, 10:01 PM
It seems to me like the main argument here is about semantics.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Gary and Sam seem to be defining "dim mak" as point-striking in general, while RAF and others limit the definition to 10-day delayed death strikes.

While you both could offer various arguments and evidence as to why your definition is correct, don't you think such a discussion would be pointless? Word definitions aren't particularly important; practice is.

What Gary and Sam are primarily talking about, teaching, and training in, are points used to stun. What they call this practice is irrelevant. Don't we all agree that such points exist?

Many of the points they're talking about can be found by any untrained individual simply sticking his thumb into them - regardless of time of day (eg. there are several points along the arm like this, that produce a wierd pain/numbing sensation). Some of the other points they discuss are things that are used in modern unarmed combat training that has no relation to "dim mak", because they work! (eg. the point in the armpit is a great example of this)

Furthermore, the image of a "point-fighter" dancing about at long range, desperately trying to poke some specific points to get spectacular effects does not describe what they are proposing.

Methods they suggest are, for example: hammer left elbow down upon opponents forearm, slide your arm up along his to strike a point in face or neck.

While they might be aiming to "hit ST7 to drain chi and stun, rub meridian in opposition to flow to cause sickness, then strike CO9 for a knockout" (or whatever, I don't know the names of my points ;) ), at the very least what they'll be doing is an excellent limb destruction flowing into a closing movement which utilizes sticking, controlling, and listening energies flowing into a powerful strike to the face or throat. Regardless of how successful their point-striking is, they're still doing something martially sound. In other words, their point-striking doesn't exist in a vacuum, but is an overlay upon basic martial efficiency.

We might not all agree with their methods, or think they're the most appropriate. I certainly don't - my interests lie elsewhere. But I do not think the derision expressed here is appropriate either; and I think the primary source of this negativity is a misunderstanding of their methods.

04-16-2001, 10:07 PM
Thanks Braden,
you are absoulutely right, its all a matter of perspective!! We should spend more time trying to understand someone elses definition before attempting to disprove it!
Kind regards,

Water Dragon
04-16-2001, 10:19 PM
"Regardless of how successful their point-striking is, they're still doing something martially sound. In other words, their point-striking doesn't exist in a vacuum, but is an overlay upon basic martial efficiency."

This is the first time I have noticed this mentioned in this topic. OVERLAY being the key point: STRUCTURE/POWER/TECHNIQUE The power must be there first, among many other things. Advanced skills are advanced for a reason. The basics need to be mastered first.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

04-16-2001, 11:13 PM

I really think we are at somewhat of an impasse. I think that Jerry Alan Johnson's text and descriptions mirror pretty close to what I, the count and a few others have learned. Some strikes require nothing regarding time of day etc.. But accordingly, Dian Xue requires an understanding of the peaks and lows of blood flow (which is intertwined with qi).

It seems that others do not follow this system and I am not so closed minded as to believe that there are many ways to "skin a cat". But clearly there are some systems, grounded in TCM, that require knowledge of seasons, organs, timing of blood flow etc.. It seems in an earlier post that others consider this wrong. Johnson is as credentialed as anyone I know regarding TCM so ultimately my credentials are better than your credentials also deadends in an impasse.

So what more can be said? I am sure that each respective party will continue to practice their system and I am certain that both parties will continue to knockout people, where need be of course. Whether its the dian xue, death touch, dim mak etc., it really doesn't matter as long as the job gets done (assuming it needs to be done).

So the impasse is reached. I hope there are no hard feelings and that if you do possess the so-called death touch, I also hope you never have to use it. Prison is not a good place to be. One of the best martial artists I knew landed in prison and was found dead in a maximum lockup cell. Some say the guards hung him because he was teaching MA to other inmates during his previous time. The guy fought in the underground circuit and was quite successful. Now, he is dead and leaves a beautiful wife and kids behind. All this talk about death touches etc., in practice, might be tragic for many. The old adage live by the sword die by the sword has a lot of wisdom for martial arts practitioners. Dying in prison or in a street fight over ego is not a good thing

04-17-2001, 03:46 AM
For semantic purposes I shall use Dim Hsue instead of Dim Mak.
I have no question in my mind that Dim Hsue for killing or debilitating an opponent exists. I further think that it can be quite effective in the right place.
I question the logic of teaching it to everyone at an early phase in their training. While I understand that an intelligent person with a limited martial arts background could pick up a quality accupuncture book and learn the points to use. A person could also go to school for accupuncture and do some simple addition and come up with what would work for "dim hsue."
I found that if a person has a legitimate teacher with authentic knowledge, and they work hard, they will be able to take care of themselves very quickly. A year to three of good hard hsing-i or baguachuan or taichichuan will really definitely develop quality self defense skills providing a person works very hard. (A big problem now-a-days is people are too lazy to do the work necessary to become really good.)
A person who learns fajing and dim hsue without having a good inate understanding of their own energy; without having sufficient energy built up in their body; without having proper alignment of the spinal column; and without a proper mindset, WILL develop problems in their own body over time. They WILL develop energy problems, spinal and musculo-skeletal structure problems that can be very detrimental in the long run. The same goes with studying Iron Palm.
That is ONE of the reasons other training takes place first traditionally in most systems.
If a person is learning legitimate TaiChi or Bagua or HsingYi, and is studying it correctly and working hard at it, they will have no need of using dim mak of the severe type to defend themselves after a year to three. The only time a person needs it really is if they are fighting someone of such superiour skill that it helps balance out things. Or if you work for "them."
The key is hard work!!! (Ouch, there is that word again...)
--Gary: What AFSC are you? What Squadron are you in? Where have you been besides Tinker?


yi beng, kan xue

04-17-2001, 06:30 AM
I agree with you 100% Sin Loi!
The foundation must be strong, and that only comes with time.

Maoshan :cool:

Sam Wiley
04-17-2001, 07:55 AM
From what I understand, certain points affect the heart rate. So if we have to strike a point at a certain time ("high or low tide", as in the above example), then we must first know which state the body is in...or must we?

Let me explain. The body has a cycle changing from yin to yang to yin again, etc. And within each major part of this cycle, there is a smaller cycle, and within that one there is a smaller cycle, etc, and on and on.

Now, if hitting a certain point can affect this cycle to a small degree, then why not use them in conjunction with the points which must be struck when the body is in a certain state if these points change the body's cycle to that necessary state?

How about some examples? Lung 8 and Heart 5 on the wrist are said to set up St9 for the strike. There are applications in the old Yang style that involve taking the wrist, jerking and cranking it, and then coming forward into the throat with Press/Squeeze. My own personal take on this is that these points on the wrist momentarily force a change in the cycle of the body, putting the heart in the desired state for the strike. In other words, these points put the body in the necessary ("high or low tide") state for the strike.

Other points that are said to work well with St9 are Neiguan and Heart 3. There are applications from the old Yang style that involve striking the arm at Neiguan with one hand and at Heart 3 with the other, and then coming forward with Chee into the throat.

Both of these sets of techniques are from Grasping the Sparrow's Tail, which is said to be the foundation of Taiji. In fact, both of them use Rollback and Chee. I am reminded of a line from one of Taiji's classic manuals, "Rollback without Chee is a waste of Rollback; Chee without Rollback is a foolish risk." Besides the obvious, might we also not interpret this line in light of point striking techniques? In other words, we might get from it that using set-up points without striking the target is a waste of energy, and that striking the point without a set-up might not necessarily get the job done.

Also in the classics, it is said, "Split strikes out with horizontal force like a surprise shot; avoid the central gate and take the spiral path. With a single hand sweeping the opponent's neck, I am like a speeding horse destroying all in its path." So if we use P'eng to defend against a punch, and then use Rollback, we can then use Split as he comes forward, to spiral his arm up into his body. We could throw him, having pressured his elbow to the point of almost breaking it, or simply break it, but we can also go on and damage him much more, by jerking the wrist again with one hand as our other strikes into St9. From here, all we have to do is step around behind, tear the head back with one hand as the other jerks his wrist again, pulling his arm across our chest and breaking it, and then kick to the back of knee at Kidney 10 while we tear the head ****her back, using Split again.

Or we could use P'eng to defend against a punch as we strike with the other hand to the temple, then step around behind quickly, and thrust one hand across his throat, knocking sideways against the Adam's Apple, as the other jerks his wrist so his arm breaks across our chest, and then kick to the back of the Knee at Kidney 10 as we tear back on his head, again using Split.

For those here who study Chiang Jung Chiao's Bagua, you might want to use Jade Lady Throws Fan to block a low punch, striking Heart 5 and Lung 8, and then rebound into Stomach 9 with the top hand and into Liver 14 with the other. If done with fa-jing, the hands will jerk the arm as they close onto it because of the turning action of the waist, using Bagua's Leading ability (sort of like Rollback), and then as he comes forward, your hands slam into St9 and Liv14.

Or, also for the Bagua stylists, you may want to use Flower Hides Beneath Leaf to defend against a punch and step around to his closed side, using the top hand to jerk the wrist as you step around and the lower hand to strike to the kidneys. As you come around fully, your shoulder locks his elbow into place, you crank his wrist, and spiral his arm up into his body, using the knee closest to him to pop into the back of his knee at Kidney 10, and the lower hand's forearm to scrape up his arm into his armpit to Heart 1. If done hard or with fa-jing, the hand will continue up into his neck or jaw as you throw him. Or you could simply bring the "lower" hand over the top of his arm as you turn and step, striking him in the jaw, then crank the wrist etc like before, and come around with the hand coming directly into the throat instead of the armpit.

If these points set up the body for the strike as we are told, then we do not necessarily have to know which state an attacker is in, as we can put him there for a moment and execute our strike. I think that is more important than knowing a bunch of theory, which won't help you with application until after you have learned usage. Anyway, the key is, as others have said, in laying the knowledge over what you have learned, not just reading about some points and trying to poke them real hard. If you can relate the point striking to what you already have learned, and then can use it to augment what you already have, then you are doing well.

BTW, were any of the applications above unclear? They all come directly from the forms.

"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

04-17-2001, 05:31 PM
Sin Loi

Well said. 100% agreement.

04-17-2001, 08:25 PM
I agree with alot of what you said, however you are forgetting some history. Chang-seng-feng (think thats how its spelled) invented dim-mak first, later the strikes where put into forms to hide them from others, later these forms became an art called Taijiquan! But the dim-mak applications where not taught to many, so it was handed down without the proper apps. Later some even took out the Fa-jing, so old and sick people to reap the health benifts. But your right if you can use fa-jing, and you can use energy correctly then you can aviod using the dim-mak (pardon my cantonese dialect) altogether. But why? You do not have to kill the person, simply use a dim-mak strike to knock someone out. This very effective for law enforcment people because they do not have to leave any marks! But you do have to have a good base before learning to use such strikes effectively. If you want to know the proper applicaions for your taiji form, email Sam, as he and I study and teach the same systems. He likes to discuss forms more than I, thanks Sam.
I am in the 963 Airborne Air Control Squadron at tinker ( my only base) as I fly on the AWACS, we have few bases in the world. My AFSC is 1A551, are you in the AF as well...same questions to you?
Kind regards,

Kevin Wallbridge
04-18-2001, 09:24 AM
(If I were smart i probably wouldn't wade into this... oh well)

Just as point of language dian-xue literally means to "dot" the "cavity." Xue here is often misunderstood as blood, a homynym, but refers to a cave or acupoint, not just blood vessels. Death is not part of the equation, in fact there is a method for Tuina massage called Dain-Xue-Fa, or cavity pressing method.

The idea that ancillary training is time wasted presumes that more is better when in comes to primary training, and long widom has proved this false. Its called over-training, something martial artists are notorious for. To get the most benefit from your training you need to break it up with other activities that allow time for assimilation and integration by the central nervous system and the body's contractile tissue.

How many times have you had a breakthrough, then trained like mad in boyish (or girlish) delight? Did you know that your brain would rather step back the activity/work level for two hours then review the material again? This way the new information sinks the deepest into the body-memory and can be recalled more completely at a later date. The idea that this training is wasted goes hand in hand the argument that time spent on theory is wasted, but thats for another contentious thread.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai