WC punch and breathing............

[hen]

Hi all,

This is my 1st thread and any comments/answers would be much appreciated.

WC people can easily perform 100 to 1000 chain punches effortlessly, without being short of breath and in a relaxed manner. I personally find it difficult to remain relaxed and breathing normally after chain punching.

So, how does one do it?

Do you breathe in before the punch and breathe out when you execute you punch?:confused:

Is there any difference in breathing when doing 1 punch and 1000 punches ??:confused:

Hen

[Sekabin]

So, how does one do it?

Hen

Hi there. Unlike some other arts, in WCK you breathe normally when you a technique, including chain-punching. If you're breathing normally (which might not actually be 'normal' based on whatever breathing practice you're doing in your training... but it will at least be regular, I digress...) then you don't get out of breath.

[bcbernam777]

Part of the teaching of the Sui Lum Tao is to teach the practicioner how to disconnect their breathing from their techniques. Many martial arts most notably Karate connect their breathing with their techniques (kiah), what this does is actually make you more tired and winded. In the first section of the Sui Lum Tao the concentration is on the breathing, just breath normally (abdomen breathing) and just perform the technique i.e. Tan, whu, fook, huen, dai jueng, normally.

[Matrix]

So, how does one do it?By doing. Lots of punches. You'll probably find that your shoulders get tense.
Do them slower and focus on relaxing rather than speed or power, that will come later.

[Hendrik]

I personally find it difficult to remain relaxed and breathing normally after chain punching.

So, how does one do it? -----


IMHO, that can be range from: the breathing is not understood. one's in-effective tensing habit is in the way of the breathing, and the holistic integration was not train to do the job naturally.



Do you breathe in before the punch and breathe out when you execute you punch?:confused: ----


IMHO,
One breath out while punching. However, using the Mind or Layer 3 of XLM to control the breathing or Layer 2 of XLM to fit the physical action can be a biggest unnature, due to the breathing is a different type of animal that one has to understood and knowing its characteristics to deal with.

The breathing is not going to be harmonized to the brute force command from the mind with tensing different part of the body.


Is there any difference in breathing when doing 1 punch and 1000 punches ??:confused: -----


is every breathing similar to machine that doing the same thing without changing? how does breathing work according to physical and according to mental speculation? perhaps it is the time to find out?

[cobra]

Keep practicing , you're not going to get there overnight! Also, make sure your mechanics are right. Most people use a lot of muscles that aren't needed. keep practicing and think about it while doing so. You have to be able to deliver enough power to do the job, yet be soft enough in the shoulders at the same time to be deflected if you come into contact. only then will you come to a point of feeling that you will be able to react to. In my opinion you should do a lot of chain punches as well as using the wall bag at an extremely close distance to help you develop the elbow force necessary to become a comprehensive WT/WC practitioner












'

[Hendrik]

Part of the teaching of the Sui Lum Tao is to teach the practicioner how to disconnect their breathing from their techniques. ------


This is totally pulling a reverse gear. IMHO

Disconnect their breath means disconnect AWARENESS. and almost one can predict those who train this way will STOP or Hold breathing while execute a strike or resisting a strike. IMHHHHHO.

And there is NO JING can be produced with this type of disconnection/unAWAREN/holding/stop breathing type of practice. The most this type of practice is a burst of power and after that burst of power is totally weakness while trying to restoring the fragmented body/breathing/and mind. IMHO





Many martial arts most notably Karate connect their breathing with their techniques (kiah), what this does is actually make you more tired and winded. -----


IMHO,
that is because the breathing, body,... and technics doesnt RESONANCE all in unity.

The Goal is manifesting a holistic integration syncronized Resonace to generate the force. (notice it said power instead of Jing here)

The problem is in general one may "think" one "knows" what to do, but infact one's "think" or mental speculation/derivation has no clue how to unify every components to manifest a unity Resonance.



In the first section of the Sui Lum Tao the concentration is on the breathing, just breath normally (abdomen breathing) and just perform the technique i.e. Tan, whu, fook, huen, dai jueng, normally.-------



IMHO,
Breathing Normally is not abdoment breathing. What is abdoment breathing there are different type of abdoment breathing. That needs to be clear about. otherwise, it is just MENTAL seculation and we have no idea what is breathing is about. and

that is not good for health and not good for the art. IMHHHHHO

[Hendrik]

Keep practicing -----

IMHO


The buddhist said, " if the direction is correct, keep walking". Notice that it doesnt just said Keep Practicing. One has to know the correct direction.





, you're not going to get there overnight! -------


IMHO
True.
however, I can keep walking for 40 years and get no where with no direction.






Also, make sure your mechanics are right. Most people use a lot of muscles that aren't needed. ------

Excellent , That is very true!




keep practicing and think about it while doing so. -----

IMHO, Thinking is not equal to KNOW about Breathing. Thinking can only work when One has experience about the subject. Thus, Thinking about something one has no experience can yield any kind of answer or ideas and who knows what is reality? IMHO




You have to be able to deliver enough power to do the job, yet be soft enough in the shoulders at the same time to be deflected if you come into contact. only then will you come to a point of feeling that you will be able to react to. In my opinion you should do a lot of chain punches as well as using the wall bag at an extremely close distance to help you develop the elbow force necessary to become a comprehensive WT/WC practitioner.-----


Great answer, however it still doesnt said much about Breathing. But lots of Thinking. and Thinking might not solve the issue. IMHO.

[Hendrik]

Unlike some other arts, in WCK you breathe normally when you a technique, including chain-punching. If you're breathing normally (which might not actually be 'normal' based on whatever breathing practice you're doing in your training... but it will at least be regular, I digress...) then you don't get out of breath.--------skb


What is a NORMAL breathing?
What is the Breathing needed to do the Job?
What is the breathing practice practice and trying to achieve?

[Hendrik]

Sorry if I sound too serious in my post!

But this is a very very very importand subject. Great that so many join this discussion and certainly everyone's ideas is appreciated.

I am just praying devil's advocate here. :D

[bcbernam777]

Part of the teaching of the Sui Lum Tao is to teach the practicioner how to disconnect their breathing from their techniques. ------


This is totally pulling a reverse gear. IMHO

Disconnect their breath means disconnect AWARENESS. and almost one can predict those who train this way will STOP or Hold breathing while execute a strike or resisting a strike. IMHHHHHO.

Your awareness is found in the correct storage of breath not in its in and out of the mouth, awareness is also found in relaxation, the only way to conserve the energy needed for awareness is to disconnect the breathing fro m the hands.


And there is NO JING can be produced with this type of disconnection/unAWAREN/holding/stop breathing type of practice. The most this type of practice is a burst of power and after that burst of power is totally weakness while trying to restoring the fragmented body/breathing/and mind. IMHO

you are entitled to that opinion, but that has not been my experiance neither the experiance of my Sifu who has been practicing Wing Chun for 50 years. Infact since I have practiced this type of breathing my Wing chun has gotten stronger, primeraly through the conservation of energy, which has meant that I have not had to restore anything, the breathing is in unity with the body, but that hands are seperate from the body, and simply utilise the power of the stance to achive their aims. If you connect the arms to the stance your centre of gravity can be more easily disrupted. This is part of the purpose of the Chum Kui to teach you how to keep the arms seperate but still maintain coordination with the body. Its not that there is not unity, but the name unity indicates seperate componants working together for a common purpose.






Many martial arts most notably Karate connect their breathing with their techniques (kiah), what this does is actually make you more tired and winded. -----


IMHO,
that is because the breathing, body,... and technics doesnt RESONANCE all in unity.

The Goal is manifesting a holistic integration syncronized Resonace to generate the force. (notice it said power instead of Jing here)

The problem is in general one may "think" one "knows" what to do, but infact one's "think" or mental speculation/derivation has no clue how to unify every components to manifest a unity Resonance.

note what I said about unity




In the first section of the Sui Lum Tao the concentration is on the breathing, just breath normally (abdomen breathing) and just perform the technique i.e. Tan, whu, fook, huen, dai jueng, normally.-------



IMHO,
Breathing Normally is not abdoment breathing. What is abdoment breathing there are different type of abdoment breathing. That needs to be clear about. otherwise, it is just MENTAL seculation and we have no idea what is breathing is about. and

that is not good for health and not good for the art. IMHHHHHO


Tell a small child that abdomen breathing is not normal! Abdominal breathing is naturally normal, this is how we breathed once upon a time, before we got lazy and started to breath from the top of our lungs.

[anerlich]

you are entitled to that opinion, but that has not been my experiance neither the experiance of my Sifu who has been practicing Wing Chun for 50 years.

Appeal to authority and anecdotal evidence.

My lineage (Spain - Cheung - Yip Man - ...) holds that SLT has definite breathing cadences coordinated with the movements. These are not harsh and explosive, like your straw man image of karate, but smooth and not forced. Often a single exhalation accompanies several techniques.

I have been around the block too, and some of the people I have learned from have been in the game as long as your Sifu. Opinions vary (obviously).

Sports science in a number of disciplines has it that coordination of the breath with movement is essential for power generation and injury avoidance. WC tradition does not trump physiological science.

Just make sure you exhale and relax when taking a body shot.


note what I said about unity

I did. It sounds like you're trying to have a bet each way, but it's hard to say exactly what your point was.


Thinking is not equal to KNOW about Breathing. Thinking can only work when One has experience about the subject. Thus, Thinking about something one has no experience can yield any kind of answer or ideas and who knows what is reality? IMHO


More Hendrik doublespeak. Some of us have 50 odd years experience with breathing. You're taking something simple and surrounding it with new age metaphysical rubbish, as usual.

[fiamacho]

Unlike some other arts, in WCK you breathe normally when you a technique, including chain-punching. If you're breathing normally (which might not actually be 'normal' based on whatever breathing practice you're doing in your training... but it will at least be regular, I digress...) then you don't get out of breath.


I would have to say that I disagree with this statement. When punching you should breath out, short and fast, at the "point of contact" this aides timing as well allowing your body to tense at the right moment.

By just "breathing normally" while you are punching results in more of a sloppy looking hammer type punch, where the focus is "circular" instead of straight.

[Hendrik]

Tell a small child that abdomen breathing is not normal! Abdominal breathing is naturally normal, this is how we breathed once upon a time, before we got lazy and started to breath from the top of our lungs. -------


Since one is no longer a child. So what is a normal breathing? what is an abdomen breathing?

[Hendrik]

More Hendrik doublespeak. Some of us have 50 odd years experience with breathing. You're taking something simple and surrounding it with new age metaphysical rubbish, as usual.


You know, I hope that it is hendrik's doublespeak.

However, similar to breathing, Thinking is something simple but after 40 years or even more experience some still can't figure out what is what.

[Hendrik]

I would have to say that I disagree with this statement. When punching you should breath out, short and fast, at the "point of contact" this aides timing as well allowing your body to tense at the right moment.

By just "breathing normally" while you are punching results in more of a sloppy looking hammer type punch, where the focus is "circular" instead of straight.


You know . it is not hendrik who post the post you are qouting. :D

and

you might want to share with us hot to breath out, short and fast? IE how to you manage the breathing via which part of your body?

[fiamacho]

You know . it is not hendrik who post the post you are qouting. :D

and

you might want to share with us hot to breath out, short and fast? IE how to you manage the breathing via which part of your body?

Ahhh o.k correction this was a quote from "SBK - Sekabin" ... my apologies Hendrik.

Tighten you abdominals on the short sharp breath out, when reaching the point of contact which should be 2-3" inches beyond the surface of ones body when striking or punching.

[cobra]

Hendrik is right on about the breathing, however, the correct breathing won't come overnight either. Like almost everything in WC, you have to spend a lot of time with things before they really work right. YGKYM is a prime example, most people work at it for a little bit, then decide it doesn't work and decide to adopt some other type of footwork because they don't trust it. You have to breathe using the diaphragm, not the chest. You need some good instruction on some of this stuff and more practice.


fiamacho

"By just "breathing normally" while you are punching results in more of a sloppy looking hammer type punch, where the focus is "circular" instead of straight."

your type of breathing should not affect the line of your punch.

[fiamacho]

Hendrik is right on about the breathing, however, the correct breathing won't come overnight either. Like almost everything in WC, you have to spend a lot of time with things before they really work right. YGKYM is a prime example, most people work at it for a little bit, then decide it doesn't work and decide to adopt some other type of footwork because they don't trust it. You have to breathe using the diaphragm, not the chest. You need some good instruction on some of this stuff and more practice.
your type of breathing should not affect the line of your punch.

Yes it does cobra, it affects your timing thus it affects the line.

[anerlich]

Thinking is something simple but after 40 years or even more experience some still can't figure out what is what.


You're speaking for yourself, and based on some of your posts, I guess you at least *do* suffer from that problem. :rolleyes:

Getting back to the original question, I think the performance of long duration sets of chain punching is really a matter of muscular endurance, specifically in the shoulders, rather than cardio.

And it IS hard to breathe regularly if your trying to do a fast, repititious activity such as 100 or 1000 chain punches. Most of the conflicting speed punching "world records" don't go beyond about 3 seconds, because much longer and they'd have to breathe, and breathing would slow the flurry down. There's probably something to do with the phosphate cycle running out of ATP as well which means fast flurries have to be kept short, but I'm no expert in that regard.

You would IMO HAVE to find some way to coordinate breathing with the activity to ensure both functions can be served efficiently.

I'd ask you how important being able to punch 100 or 1000 times is really. If you chain hit the guy 10,20, 30 times and he's still standing, it's probably time to back off and goget that bazooka.

IMO there are better ways to develop endurance muscular or otherwise, and better ways to spend training time.

[Hendrik]

You're speaking for yourself, and based on some of your posts, I guess you at least *do* suffer from that problem. :rolleyes:

.


I sure suffer from the that problem. otherwise, I will be Buddha, Lao Tzu, Krisnamulti, Yoganada......... and will not still chatting in here. hahaha

[bcbernam777]

Appeal to authority and anecdotal evidence.

My lineage (Spain - Cheung - Yip Man - ...) holds that SLT has definite breathing cadences coordinated with the movements. These are not harsh and explosive, like your straw man image of karate, but smooth and not forced. Often a single exhalation accompanies several techniques..


You mean like your appeal to authority (Spain - Cheung - Yip Man - ...) and anecdotal evidence? To be honest I have read many articles by Rick Spain on Wing Chun, I am not impressed, and your quoting a second generation source, the one who thinks that there are gaps in the system so has created his own fighting system (ripoff/marketing/so whats new)


I have been around the block too, and some of the people I have learned from have been in the game as long as your Sifu. Opinions vary (obviously)...

How many of those learnt from Yip Man? I have been around the block as well and studied a number of disciplines before Wing Chun, and always found a problem with the coordination of breath. The purpose of the SLT breathing is for the cultivation of Chi, whether you believe in such things is your own opinion.


Sports science in a number of disciplines has it that coordination of the breath with movement is essential for power generation and injury avoidance. WC tradition does not trump physiological science.)...

Ah huh and science is a flawless art??

[Liddel]

For the purpose of doing 100 to 1000 punches you should breathe at a regular controlled and purposful pace....thats suits you !

I can punch quite fast like alot of VT fighters..... if i try to combine my exhaling with putting the punch out then if i wasnt 'pacing' my breathing, i would hyperventalate and gas out quickly.

In fighting i DO exhale as i punch ( in bunches) and if im giving a blast of punches (faster and furious) i may exhale every few punches.....

Whatever your prefered speed for chain punching, it should be "a regular controlled and purposful pace....thats suits you and your fitness/ lung capacity !"

Different strokes for different follks - fiamacho said -
"By just "breathing normally" while you are punching results in more of a sloppy looking hammer type punch, where the focus is "circular" instead of straight."

I tend to disagree with this statement and have not found this to be true for me or my Si Dei.

"Yes it does cobra, it affects your timing thus it affects the line."

I fail to see how slow or fast timing affects your line :rolleyes:
unless you are not in control of your faculties and your lead hand is to slow to move downward thus not giving room for the comming punch which makes it come over the top/ or off to the side in a circular fashion ? (common beginer mistake)

I just see this as a timing problem on its own not born of incorrect breathing...

Is this what you mean fiamacho ?

Curious :cool:

[Hendrik]

The purpose of the SLT breathing is for the cultivation of Chi, whether you believe in such things is your own opinion.




Then, Dont you find the following post is contradiction by itself ?


"Part of the teaching of the Sui Lum Tao is to teach the practicioner how to disconnect their breathing from their techniques.

Many martial arts most notably Karate connect their breathing with their techniques (kiah), what this does is actually make you more tired and winded.


In the first section of the Sui Lum Tao the concentration is on the breathing, just breath normally (abdomen breathing) and just perform the technique i.e. Tan, whu, fook, huen, dai jueng, normally."


so, my questions are as the following.

0, what type of Qi was cultivated ?

1, how is one disconnected thier breathing from their technics can cultivate Qi or open the gate or channels or the medirians?


2, how is a normal breathing cultivate Zhen Qi?

3, What is abdoment breathing? please be specific so we dont have to guess.

[bcbernam777]

Then, Dont you find the following post is contradiction by itself ?


"Part of the teaching of the Sui Lum Tao is to teach the practicioner how to disconnect their breathing from their techniques.

Many martial arts most notably Karate connect their breathing with their techniques (kiah), what this does is actually make you more tired and winded.


In the first section of the Sui Lum Tao the concentration is on the breathing, just breath normally (abdomen breathing) and just perform the technique i.e. Tan, whu, fook, huen, dai jueng, normally."


so, my questions are as the following.

0, what type of Qi was cultivated ?

1, how is one disconnected thier breathing from their technics can cultivate Qi or open the gate or channels or the medirians?


2, how is a normal breathing cultivate Zhen Qi?

3, What is abdoment breathing? please be specific so we dont have to guess.

No there is no contradiction, cultivation does not imply connection with the technique, the idea is not to connect with the technique. In Wing Chun the arms are seperate from the body, the purpose of the SLT and further expanded in the Chum Kui is to foster this disconnection.

[fiamacho]

For the purpose of doing 100 to 1000 punches you should breathe at a regular controlled and purposful pace....thats suits you !

I can punch quite fast like alot of VT fighters..... if i try to combine my exhaling with putting the punch out then if i wasnt 'pacing' my breathing, i would hyperventalate and gas out quickly.

In fighting i DO exhale as i punch ( in bunches) and if im giving a blast of punches (faster and furious) i may exhale every few punches.....

Different strokes for different follks - fiamacho said -
"By just "breathing normally" while you are punching results in more of a sloppy looking hammer type punch, where the focus is "circular" instead of straight."

I tend to disagree with this statement and have not found this to be true for me or my Si Dei.

"Yes it does cobra, it affects your timing thus it affects the line."

I fail to see how slow or fast timing affects your line :rolleyes:
unless you are not in control of your faculties and your lead hand is to slow to move downward thus not giving room for the comming punch which makes it come over the top/ or off to the side in a circular fashion ? (common beginer mistake)

I just see this as a timing problem on its own not born of incorrect breathing...

Is this what you mean fiamacho ?

Curious :cool:

When your timing is out and you do not focus on the point of contact as a result of poor timing then your punch becomes ineffective.

Some people posting on this forum have mentioned that some Wing Chun exponents can through a truck load of "chain punches" and their opponents feel nothing. To be honest, this is 100% true, next time you are training your "chain punches", you may throw 100-1000 of these things with less than 10% serving any real purpose ... WHY??? Do you ask ... Simply put and may I reiterrate because your breathing is out, your timing is out, the "chain punches" start to move in a circular hammer like motion thus becoming a complete waste of time.

Wing Chun stresses economy of movement and throwing 100 chain punches in a row, is nothing but a useless waste of energy. As the body is also not behind the punch beig focussed through the wrist, down the forearm and tightening at the tricep.

And yes, a lot of the so called Wing Chun Latte crowd would not know this as they are more focussed on speed rather than being effective, as well as the fact that they have not been taught properly.

I would prefer to knock someone out with 5 effective punches rather than 100. Chain punching is ineffective especially when the feet are not set, remember to focus on doing it PROPERLY rather than just doing it.

[hen]

I seem to agree with most if not all that have already been said. It may sound stupid to say such a thing as contraditing ideas and ways of breathing have been put forward for discussion. It may be because of the lack of understanding and experience in my part, and I shall train more and experiement with what has been mentioned.

There seems to be 2 basic ways mentioned and that is :

1) to breathe naturally as you punch, implying disconnection between the breathing and the execution of punches. Theoretically, this can conserve your energy and less likely to be out of breath, but I have yet to acheive this. Thus, I cannot conclude if it is less powerful, effective, focus(than sycronised punching with breathing).

2) to breathe and punch in a sycronised way, the punch and exhale of the breath at the same time, creating a feel of unity. For a single punch it may feel natural and more focused but if one was to chain punch it could cause confusion in the breathing, because it is my experience that punches are much faster than your breath. How can one inhale and exhale for every punch they throw?

This leads us to a third possible method as to exhale per several punches, and it is a way of managing your breathing and may be considered as breathing naturally. You take a breath and exhale naturally, in the time you do that you execute 4 punches (say), you are just breathing naturally.

Further training and experimenting is in order!!!

One other question - Does the way you breathe and punch affect your muscle tension ? It seems the more punches you throw, the more tensed you become, how can you one remain relaxed ? Is it in the mind ?

[Hendrik]

1, No there is no contradiction, cultivation does not imply connection with the technique, the idea is not to connect with the technique.

2, In Wing Chun the arms are seperate from the body,

3, the purpose of the SLT and further expanded in the Chum Kui is to foster this disconnection.



1, can you please elaborate what is diconnection?

2, how is a cultivation is holistic and dynamic unconditionally with the idea is not to connect with the technics? Please explain how is this work in the physical, breathing, mental , and awareness platform?


3, how can arms seperate from the body and breathing which is by nature they are inseparate able? please explain what do you mean by seperate? and how ?


4, since you seems to be very sure about what you are doing. Do you know how to issue Keng Geng? if yes, please enlightent us how do you do that with your seperate and disconnect method.



Thanks in advance to go into details.

[fiamacho]

2) to breathe and punch in a sycronised way, the punch and exhale of the breath at the same time, creating a feel of unity. For a single punch it may feel natural and more focused but if one was to chain punch it could cause confusion in the breathing, because it is my experience that punches are much faster than your breath. How can one inhale and exhale for every punch they throw?

This leads us to a third possible method as to exhale per several punches, and it is a way of managing your breathing and may be considered as breathing naturally. You take a breath and exhale naturally, in the time you do that you execute 4 punches (say), you are just breathing naturally.

Further training and experimenting is in order!!!

One other question - Does the way you breathe and punch affect your muscle tension ? It seems the more punches you throw, the more tensed you become, how can you one remain relaxed ? Is it in the mind ?

hen - It is harder to explain but a lot easier to do ...

To breathe and punch in a synchronised way generates power, and a lot of it. If you were to train yourself to do this then you will find that you will knock someone out in 5 rather than 10. Which hey lets face it is the goal in any fight.

Now in reality if you are stringing together a number of punches then I agree with you that you will exhale every 4th punch for example. When you breathe then the breath should short and sharp and synchronised with the extension and tightening of the entire movement.

[Liddel]

You make some good points Fiamacho that i agree with on some level but IMO its not within the scope of the question which is where my previous post stems from.
When your 'training' your chain punches.

I gave two examples because my belief is that there is ways to train and ways to fight.

"When your timing is out and you do not focus on the point of contact as a result of poor timing then your punch becomes ineffective."

I totally agree with this statement, but are you saying that "poor breathing" or as previously mentioned "regular breathing" results in 'not focusing on the point of contact".

I thought we were talking about 'breathing' and how to breathe, but in this statement you only mention poor timing.
Im guessing you mean "as a result of incorrect breathing" but you still havent mentioned the why.... How are they related ? why would holding my breathe as an example affect my line ?

Please know that im not picking your point apart i am sincerely trying to understand it :rolleyes:

:D
Liddel

[anerlich]

I am not impressed, and your quoting a second generation source, the one who thinks that there are gaps in the system so has created his own fighting system (ripoff/marketing/so whats new)


Ooooh .... touchy. :p

Strictly speaking it would be a third generation source from YM (YM-1, WC-2, ...) I'm quoting ... sort of like you! If you want to go ad hominem at least try for accuracy. ;)


How many of those learnt from Yip Man?

Why? Did you? One was William Cheung, the others all his direct students.


I have been around the block as well and studied a number of disciplines before Wing Chun,

join the club,


and always found a problem with the coordination of breath.

I'm sorry to hear that.

[fiamacho]

I gave two examples because my belief is that there is ways to train and ways to fight.

"When your timing is out and you do not focus on the point of contact as a result of poor timing then your punch becomes ineffective."

I totally agree with this statement, but are you saying that "poor breathing" or as previously mentioned "regular breathing" results in 'not focusing on the point of contact".

I thought we were talking about 'breathing' and how to breathe, but in this statement you only mention poor timing.
Im guessing you mean "as a result of incorrect breathing" but you still havent mentioned the why.... How are they related ? why would holding my breathe as an example affect my line ?

Liddel

Poor timing is a result of poor breathing, we have always been taught that you train the way that you will fight. You do not divorce the two. It is a waste of time to train in a certain faahion and then not use it in combat. Take a look at Karate Kata for example the position of the feet, the blocking techniques they definitely do not fight that way, not even remotely close, So why spend coutless hours training that way?

In the way that I was taught Wing Chun, the emphasis was and still is definitely on comabt thus the moves in the Forms the stress is on the application rather than the sequence.

[Hendrik]

Poor timing is a result of poor breathing, we have always been taught that you train the way that you will fight.
.


Yup.

while I was posting on XLm some asked me about timing without asking me about breathing. with the Breathing Layer in XLM there is timing.. one lead to other....it is a complex issue....


if one dont know how to breath in the dojo then how do one know how to breath in a fight?

if one practices inpractical breathing in the dojo doing SLT/SNT, how is that aid the real deal?

bottom line,

it is all about handling Forces and how does one breath while handling those forces? if one have never look at it before but just speculate about it. then one doesnt know. so, it is a good time to look at breathing closely.

IMHO.

[Liddel]

So your taught that way - "Poor timing is a result of poor breathing"

I was just looking for your explanation of why.... Poor Breathing - i can certainly understand, but 'Regular breathing' - as someone previously mentioned which was respectfully disagreed with by you, still hangs out there begging the question why ?

"In the way that I was taught Wing Chun, the emphasis was and still is definitely on comabt thus the moves in the Forms the stress is on the application rather than the sequence."

Me too :D

[Hendrik]

So your taught that way - "Poor timing is a result of poor breathing"

I was just looking for your explanation of why.... Poor Breathing - i can certainly understand, but 'Regular breathing' - as someone previously mentioned which was respectfully disagreed with by you, still hangs out there begging the question why ?

D

IMHO,
timing has lots to do with power generation. Breathing is a core key of power generation. without a good handling in breathing. One doesnt have much handling in timing.


What is regular? IMHHHHO.
Regular breathing might as well said " I have no idea about how breathing works.....". IMHHHO. I would love to post this above with more diplomatic way. May be some one can show me how. seriously,

[fiamacho]

IMHO,
timing has lots to do with power generation. Breathing is a core key of power generation. without a good handling in breathing. One doesnt have much handling in timing.


What is regular? IMHHHHO.
Regular breathing might as well said " I have no idea about how breathing works.....". IMHHHO. I would love to post this above with more diplomatic way. May be some one can show me how. seriously,

I totally agree with you Hendrik.

[Liddel]

Sorry ? did i miss something,

So much for trying to understand someones point of view -

I get the fact that breathing plays an important part in timing and power generation i have my theories on that, i was trying to get your ideas on the topic but it seems you dodge the 'why ?' part with the grace of a politician....

"timing has lots to do with power generation" Agreed

"Breathing is a core key of power generation" Agreed

"Regular breathing might as well said " I have no idea about how breathing works.....".

I guess i dont. :eek:

but i dont see it as being so black and white sorry thats just my POV.

Trying to understand 'why' you think it would affect your line as previously mentioned fiamacho, seems to be an exercise in drawing blood from stone, maybe you just dont want to share, so thanks for the chat. :confused:

[Hendrik]

"Regular breathing might as well said " I have no idea about how breathing works.....".

I guess i dont. :eek:

but i dont see it as being so black and white sorry thats just my POV.

:



IMHO,

why using mind speculation or POV?

just spend one hour observing how breathing changes or you handling breathing in doing different things. There one starts to learn first hand about what is going on and how is breathing works.

[fiamacho]

Trying to understand 'why' you think it would affect your line as previously mentioned fiamacho, seems to be an exercise in drawing blood from stone, maybe you just dont want to share, so thanks for the chat. :confused:

.,.. ha ha ha ... No it is not that I don't want to share, I thought I had explained it.

Let me put it to you this way, proper breathing and timing are NOT "mutually exclusive", to simply breathe normally while punching, even though it is a requirement (no I am not being sarcastic) results in a rather weak punch, with no direction and definitely no power.

Take a look at the guys at your Club while they are chain punching (which I believe as a waste of time doing), what direction are the punches being delivered ie are they arm movements more circular or straight. The may start of straight but while they are trying to breathe normally, notice that there is no power whatsoever in the punches, thus all they are doing is going through the mechanics of the technique.

Unforunately this happens all too frequently in the non TWC Clubs that I have been to, where students are just punching, and not even breaking out in a sweat, there is also no one who is out of breath.

Now is this because they are 100 times more fitter than I am, well I beg to differ because the majority of the students all seem to have similar expressions on their faces as though they are just going through the motions. And yet whenever we punch at our Club people are huffing and puffing ??? Go figure.

[wing_nut]

Why should you be huffing and puffing if you are only punching the air?

[Liddel]

I kinda expected well something like -
When breathing in, your diafram or lungs expland and as you punch if you exhale at the same time etc etc but poor breathing changes this etc etc.... kinda explanation..... the WHY ?

Or something to this effect..... you guys are preaching to the converted on the importance of proper breathing which i did kinda made clear..... I AGREE with you.