The world we live in

[Emeraldphoenix]

I just got a disturbing post reply. Do you have insurance, does your venue insure this type of event? Blah Blah.

Do we need insurance to get together and engage in friendly sparring now a days? Has the world come to this point? How did martial artists of old ever test their skills with no insurance.

I guess i will now adapt a new policy. I will not spar or fight anyone unless i see your insurance card before hand.

Please some feed back guys. Am i crazy or is this just crazy?

[ "fight club" ] for ref. of said questioning.

[Brad]

This isn't the old days. Sometimes the martial artists of old would hurt and kill each other. A lot also tested their skills against bandits while working as body gaurds (or maybe were the bandits themselves, lol).


Please some feed back guys. Am i crazy or is this just crazy?
Probably a little of each :D

[Emeraldphoenix]

You are probally right about being crazy.

[SimonM]

But what do ants in the drainage system have to do with fighting?

[Mr Punch]

As someone who has been injured to the point of losing days off work through MA, and having seen a sempai of mine breaking his neck and various other debilitating injuries, I think compulsory insurance is a good idea... as long as it's specific enough, and not too expensive (since it doesn't NEED to be).

[Tingjid]

For a friendly get together such as this with the planned light contact I pray that insurance isn't needed and that it doesn't come to that. But if it does it does, we do in fact live in the current world, as annoying as that can be.... let us know.

[David Jamieson]

I think in the US, it's probably a god idea to have some insurance because they don't have a medicaire system there like in Canada where no matter what, whoever has been injured gets to the hospital and gets taken care of with no cost to themself.

But in the states, if you get hurt, you pay the bills and if you can't pay the bills, then it is standard to sue the person who brought you harm to pay those bills.

so, I think the individuals should have their health insurance in place and should sign a waiver saying that they understand and acknowledge the risks and forego holding anyone else responsible for their choice in entering a contest or the results of said contest.

If you're under 18, forget it, you're out and you can't play because you have no legal rights and no ability to insure yourself or to be sued etc etc.

Check your locals laws and make sure there aren't any ways for someone to get financila harm done to them.

It is important that there is a level of trust between all parties as well, if you got one loose cannon in the group, well, he shouldn't be there. You don't want a hothead who doesn't have enough brains in his head to extend a little common courtesy in a friendly match.

People have to do a relativity check. It's not UFC, no one is footing the bill and it is informal.

Be sensible or don't be. But know that there is a cost associated with recklessness in these types of things.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Litigation in th US has become rediculous. The number of suits filed with no merit take away from the suits that do.

You should make sure that anyone participating has their OWN health insurance so if they get hurt, you know they can get care.

Also the waiver DJ recommended, while not absolutely binding and capable of preventing a lawsuit, is a good idea.

And anyone who asks if you have insurance for it, should be there...the lawsuits are already swimming in their minds...

[Emeraldphoenix]

No ins. will be required for our get together Max.

GreenCloud, you did mean they should not be there. Your reply said they should be there.

Hey, i can understand ins. for tournaments and pro fights and other various amatuer sanctioned fights. But a get together for light sparring amongst martial artists is crazy.

The post that i am refering to just blew my mind. Seemed a little hostile to me. I wasnt sure how to react to the person. Trust me i had a 10 paragragh response to it, but i decided to just let it go. The thing that really got me, was the person is on the west coast, i am on the east coast. To stretch your nose this far was mind blowing.

I will probally have people sign a waiver of common sense. when fighting there may be injuries. Ya know what i mean.

Does any one know of any time that ins. has ever paid out to someone that was participating in a fight arena type situation? other than the pro's

March 26 th is still on. Now you will have secret password then location will be disclosed 1 hour before start time. Ha, Ha

Thanks guys.

[Chief Fox]

Even in a friendly sparring match accidents sometimes happen. So insurance is not a bad idea. I think that waivers should always be read and signed. Even though in most cases a waiver isn't worth the paper it's printed on, at least it will make people aware of the potential risks.

Unfortunately we do live in a CYA world. :(

[shirkers1]

I will probally have people sign a waiver of common sense. when fighting there may be injuries. Ya know what i mean.

Does any one know of any time that ins. has ever paid out to someone that was participating in a fight arena type situation? other than the pro's

March 26 th is still on. Now you will have secret password then location will be disclosed 1 hour before start time. Ha, Ha

Thanks guys.

I work for scottsdale insurance company (sister company to nationwide) we deal in "high risk" insurance and actually have an MA package for schools and such here. I know that stuff is paid out to those places but I don't know about individual things like you are having.

A waiver is a fail safe for sure, and it's not asking to much to sign a paper saying you'll take care of your own injuries. Being that everyone there is cool and not there to "hurt" any one. Reasonable injuries excluded. I'm talking about long term damage or broken bones.. :)

[GreenCloudCLF]

EP,

Yes I did mean should NOT be there. my brain is faster than my fingers.

And I believe insurance pays out for missed days at work, if the injured party is not be compensated another way (disability/sick days etc...)

But I believe for that a lawsuit would be necessary.

For instance, if I got injured at your event and went to the hospital, your insurance should cover that. But if I could not teach Kung-Fu for 6 weeks, the insurance would not reimburse me for that unless I filed suit...

Judge Pen would probably know more...being a lawyer and all. I'm actually surprised he hasn;t popped his head in already.

[Emeraldphoenix]

I just cant even imagine that i would study martial arts and then agree to fight someone, then turn around and sue someone cuz i got hurt. If i sued for every injury i have recieved over the years i would be a millionaire. Maybe that's what i am doing wrong?

[shirkers1]

I just cant even imagine that i would study martial arts and then agree to fight someone, then turn around and sue someone cuz i got hurt. If i sued for every injury i have recieved over the years i would be a millionaire. Maybe that's what i am doing wrong?

I think it's just a matter of the people involved and understanding the rules of the engagement. It's easy to accept an injury as a MAist as long as it's not major and do to someone else being a ****. Like others said if you can't work etc because of someone elses lack of control then it would be nice to know you're covered.

Having some major job ending injuries in my day this issue is kind of a touchy subject with me. All these cats out there getting settlements for fake injuries or non job ending injuries, and I was having a hard time having my insurance cover my medical bills for job related injuries. It's sick how the system works sometimes.:mad:

[GreenCloudCLF]

I think it's just a matter of the people involved and understanding the rules of the engagement. It's easy to accept an injury as a MAist as long as it's not major and do to someone else being a ****. Like others said if you can't work etc because of someone elses lack of control then it would be nice to know you're covered.

Thanks for bringing that up...I forgot. Lawsuits also depend on the preceived risk. People know contact sparring has risk of injury inherent in it. So the odds of a payout lessen (again I think...where's a lawyer when you need him)?

[GeneChing]

If you're doing something above board, something legal, in the US, you definitely need insurance. This is not just for gatherings. This is for schools too. Whenever there is sparring and there is business invovled, you need insurance. Without it, you are so vulnerable, and no martial artist leaves anything intentionally vulnerable.

Now if there's no money changing hands, there's no business. This is less vulnerable, but it then becomes a problem of how you've promoted it. Promoting it as a 'fight club' ala Palahniuk, well, that's just not wise. A lawyer could have a field day with that. If your promotion is documented - and that could easily include web announcements - and if in encourages a behavior that has potential for injury - like sparring - you could still be sued. Note that the injury does not have to be that significant to be sued. If one of the fighters sprained an ankle and lost work because of it - lost income - again, you're vulnerable. It's all about having a good lawyer. Note also that contact sparring events are controlled by the boxing commision, which is a very powerful lobby and varies from state to state. They really only become a factor when money is involved.

Officially, of course, we here at KungFuMagazine.com cannot condone any such behavior. I have to say that now, especially since you've raised the question.

All of you are evoking warrior's honor and such, and I totally hear you. But law practice is not about honor. It's about money. You can say it's sick, or crazy, or whatever and the lawyers laugh at you all the way to the bank. Come on, don't you watch Boston Legal ;)

[hskwarrior]

its true and a shame.

in our school, my sifu makes you sign a contract stating that if you happen to get hurt in our school during training and you intend to sue then you must first pay my sifu 25,000 dollars.

it definetely weeds out the ones who intend to sue. you have to watch out for the ones who won't sign.

Now this may be street level, but if you make the people at your event sign a waiver that no matter what happens, they will not take any legal actions for any injuries incurred during the process-- anyone with good intentions will immediately sign. you may have a way to continue.

[GeneChing]

...it really depends on what level you are operating. We've assumed that the sparring participants are under the supervision of someone qualified and as we know, many teachers are not qualified. Many are Rex Kwon Do types. There's no government recognized certification for the martial arts so anyone can teach. And I've heard plenty of horror stories of bad training. We all have. The other side of the coin is that some McDojo's probably deserved to be sued. Many unqualified teachers put their students at risk.

There should be some sort of regulation for opening a school, just like with a restaurant. If the only thing we have is insurance, so be it.

BTW, hskwarrior, I can't imagine that your Sifu's contract would be legally binding. If he thinks it is, he's probably got another thing coming if ever called to task on it. If he's just using it as a test of character, well, good on him. That's a funny one. It probably works.

Personally, I don't see the insurance thing as shameful. It's irritating, but we should be accustomed to others not behaving honorably. Honor is a rare commodity. Only a fool expects everyone to behave honorably. There is honor amongst the wulin, or even the jianghu, but we must each judge whether any individual can truly be characterized as being part of that honor roll. Most don't make the cut, so such expectations will only only lead to frustration.

[hskwarrior]

What I meant

what i meant was that it was a shame that there are people who are out there who would even consider suing the school or his teacher knowing there are possiblities of ANY type of injuries.

insurance is a great thing for a commercial school but for small fries like me who needs sue happy students?

Oh, gene, working on that article of so and so i told you about.