Left or Right open palm salutation?

[Phil Redmond]

I've noticed that some Southern martial arts bows (salutations) use the open right hand and some use the left. In my Hung Ga and Fu Jow Pai training we used the left open hand and the right fist. I noticed that in Bak Mei the right open hand is often used. Do any of you know the reason for this?

[PlumDragon]

Some style utilize a gestural differentiation between men and women.

[X-Warrior]

We all used left palm and right fist, regardless of man or woman. I never really looked other styles, I didn't even notice some do it differently.

[David Jamieson]

hui ke's single salute is the right hand open palm.

I've seen the left palm over top the right fist as a white eyebrow salute.

I think the reversal of the sun/moon saliutethat is common to those with the shaolin background is not common.

It is either a mistake, a misrepresentation of something someone saw, or something specific to a very small number of styles that are probably obscure to begin with.

[Phil Redmond]

In this http://www.pakmeinyc.net/vids/sifu.mp4 and other Bak Mei forms they use the right palm. You'll need to use Quicktime to open this.
Phil

[ngokfei]

it has to do with Martial Artists vs the regular people/civilians.

Civilians (scholars) have the left as the fist and the right as the palm. The idea was that most people were right handed so to open up the hand into a palm would be a gesure of peaceful gathering. Kind of like in the west as shake hands (right hand - prevents us from pulling out a knife, most of the time:D )

Martial Artists are military and religous organizations.

The weapon is held predominantly in the right hand so the palm is used to cover the weapons hand (kind of hard to change hands).

Also you have to see the various salutes are very clan/family/religious based. The example being given as seen in Bak Mei (I believe it has something to do with rivers and lakes?) HG uses the left tger claw covering the right fist, a variation of the suna nd moon or Ming connotation).

I believe that Master Doc Fai Wong did an article on it probably 10 years ago (??)

later

[WOW]

PM salute represents 5 inland waters (lakes) and 4 oceans - or four corners formed by the palm and top of the fist.

Other Shalin KF salutes?

[hskwarrior]

some of the positions of the hands in the bow are representative of the old Hung Society. I can't recall every single detail, but there are two ways to bow that i know have this representation.

usually I see the regular bow open hand with closed fist palm side facing down.

but the Hung Society schools used the left hand open with the right one closed. instead of palm side facing down the first two fist knuckles are in the center of the open palm and the closed fists palms side is outward and not down ward.

the second revolutionary bow is the 3 bows to the front meaning left right center.
this bow is strictly a hung society style bow because the left right and center represents the 3 tiks on the Hung character which is to the left of it. those 3 tiks are symbolic of "Heaven Earth and Man" which is the nickname of the hung society.

the 3 bows in CLF are just that CLF Bows. But my sigung is a part of the Hop Sing Tong and So was Lau Bun. the hop sing tong is a hung society group and heavily connected to Dr Sun Yat Sen. I believe that is where my sigung got that.

[hskwarrior]

the left or right side bows for my lineage is as we were told.........

the left open palm represented the Chan Heung Lineage, but the Fut San Hung Sing lineage uses the open right hand and left closed fist to represent Jeong Yims family.

[X-Warrior]

it has to do with Martial Artists vs the regular people/civilians.

Civilians (scholars) have the left as the fist and the right as the palm. The idea was that most people were right handed so to open up the hand into a palm would be a gesure of peaceful gathering. Kind of like in the west as shake hands (right hand - prevents us from pulling out a knife, most of the time:D )

Martial Artists are military and religous organizations.

The weapon is held predominantly in the right hand so the palm is used to cover the weapons hand (kind of hard to change hands).

later

Good post ngokfei. When I learned the slautation I was explained that the left palm hides the right fist so the opponent does not know what kind of fist you have hidden, in case you have to fend off an unexpected attack.

Also even within our Pai (family) the saluting slightly differs from school to school. This, my Sifu says, is for the purpose of distinguishing yet recognizing each other and to avoid fighting if the opponent was from the same Pai.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

The reference to lakes and oceans is:

"Ng Wu Sei Hoi" which translates to "5 Lakes, 4 Oceans". The saying means:

"Thoughout 5 lakes and 4 oceans, we're all brothers."
It's a brotherhood thang....

I too have seen some people do the bow, what I would consider 'backwards'. I don't think it's a special thing, I think possibly some people got misinformed at some point and switched hands.

Plus, as far as the open and closed hand salute; I thought you guys knew all about that. I never learned it was about swords, weapons or anything. It wasn't used 600 years ago. The two hands represent two Chinese characters, Sun (Yat) and Moon (Yuet) One is a vertical rectange with a horizontal line though it, (Sun) and the other is hard to explain. Check it out on one of those chinese dictionaries online. When you put both characters together, it forms a new character, Ming (bright).

These salutes, were secret codes used to identify Ming symathists. Kind of like "Psst. What's the password?" You used the hand signal, you knew you were speaking to someone who was on the same side of you. Most of the styles, especially southern, were used by Ming rebels, in an effort to restore the Ming Dynasty, and overthow the evil Ching!

Just a bit of info, if you knew it, cool. If not, cooler.

[hskwarrior]

mike that what you posted is of the Hung Society itself. the 5 lakes and such are a reference to the 5 ancestors.

if you ever get the chance, find the book called " hung society" and anyone else for that matter. but you will learn alot by reading this book on why things are done in such a way.

[mantis108]

I posted this on the Wing Chun board:

Hi Phil Remond,

You are right that bow and salutation are 2 seperate things.

I have couple of people who're of Christian faith called up and asked if they are required to bow. I said I don't have that requirement. But it got me thinking. Personally, I believe if we understand the rationale behind an action or the prohibition of the same action, we will not fuss about these things or at least not let it stop us from learning Kung Fu.

Bowing in Chinese culture came from Confucius' believe of mannerism, social decorum and etiquette. It is about respect of others and respect of the self that exist in all of us. It is a celebration of humanity and civilization that which distinguish us from the animals. There are different ways of bowing depending on the of social environment. Bowing to the divine, a lord or superior is different then bowing to a colleague. You will also notice that the bowing in Chinese (hands in front and in a circular formation) is a bit different then bowing in Japanese (hands down at the side). The Chinese way of bowing still has a personal boundary meaning you can not walk all over me even if I respect you; while, the Japanese bowing has no personal space left (you may do whatever the hell you please - this properly a result of samurai and shogunate thing). This has to do with the differences in the caste system in both countries.

Salutation in China and especially Kung Fu community might have influences from the Namaste gesture of Buddhism which also a Hindu tradition that means I respect of the light within you. Salutation is a bit more casual than bowing IMHO. Special salutation also signifies one's background. Laozi in Dao De Jing said that myriad of things carries the yin and embraces the yang. We can see that kind of Daoist thought reflected in the salutation of common folks. The left palm is yin also symbolize the moon and the right fist is yang signifying the sun. This is also used by those revolutionists and secret societies vowed to overthrown the Qing and reinstall the Ming because of the symbolism.

In northern styles of Kung Fu, bowing and salutation is more liberal and cordial. But in the southern styles which are often more "organzied" (pun intended) Kung Fu, the bowing and salutation is serious business. Actually social etiquette is also very important in the southern arts. It could easily get a clan feuds going just because a member of one clan being deemed as errogant or rude.

In Hung Gar salutation, it has the meaning of saluting the relationship between the lord and the minister, the father and the son, husband and wife, and the older siblings and the younger siblings. Lung Ying's salutation is similar but also has the footwork of the dragon's movement in the sky. Bak Mei has the right vertial palm on top of a left vertical palm salute that signifies 2 things: 1) Within the 5 lakes (the palm) and the 4 oceans (the fist) we are all brothers. 2) It resembles the Chinese character "White". I have also mentioned the Yong Chun white crane's lotus salute. So...

Hope this helps.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Well said, Mantis!

[Phil Redmond]

Thanks for all your help. In my WC lineage we use open right hand and closed left fist.
Phil

[Shaolin Dude]

in wah lum we use left fist right palm

[hskwarrior]

phil,

since you are WC and since WC is from Fut San and even the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon uses the exact same fist i wonder if that has any correlation to it?

[X-Warrior]

I have couple of people who're of Christian faith called up and asked if they are required to bow. I said I don't have that requirement. But it got me thinking. Personally, I believe if we understand the rationale behind an action or the prohibition of the same action, we will not fuss about these things or at least not let it stop us from learning Kung Fu.


This is a pretty common misconception I see all the time in schools, that is, bowing/saluting is connected with religion. Especially those with a strong religious background immediately associate these as such.

Although there are exceptions to this in martial art schools, in most bowing and saluting is a custom based on culture and not religion. They are norms created to show respect to other people and these are no different that of two christans (or non Christians) shaking hands.

Now as you have mentioned some do have other meanings in the deep sense such as representing a way of resisting powers such as a dynasty but this is also a thing of the past. No dynasties exist in China anymore. The custom remained but the meaning has changed.



Salutation in China and especially Kung Fu community might have influences from the Namaste gesture of Buddhism which also a Hindu tradition that means I respect of the light within you. Salutation is a bit more casual than bowing IMHO. Special salutation also signifies one's background. Laozi in Dao De Jing said that myriad of things carries the yin and embraces the yang. We can see that kind of Daoist thought reflected in the salutation of common folks. The left palm is yin also symbolize the moon and the right fist is yang signifying the sun. This is also used by those revolutionists and secret societies vowed to overthrown the Qing and reinstall the Ming because of the symbolism.

Well, again, most kung fu communities use the common salutation and bowing that are also used by common people in China. And I have to emphesize more 'used' because these customs are also sort of dieing out and merely remaining in cultural activities (such as the traditional martial arts). Probably one of the few remaining MA styles that can still strongly trace its cultures and customs back to Buddhism are the Shaolin styles. Here the salutation (holding open palm in front of you) does come from religios base.

But you may ensure your students that doing the bowing and salutation, they will break no religous rules of any kind.

[Phil Redmond]

I have Ortodox Jewish and Muslim students and though I let them know the salutation we use is just that and nothing religious. I don't require them to do it though if they feel uncomfortable about it.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

phil,

since you are WC and since WC is from Fut San and even the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon uses the exact same fist i wonder if that has any correlation to it?
Never thought of it that way. I'll email my Sifu and ask him.
Phil

[X-Warrior]

I have Ortodox Jewish and Muslim students and though I let them know the salutation we use is just that and nothing religious. I don't require them to do it though if they feel uncomfortable about it.
Phil
Yes Phil, this is a precently common misconception. I believe it's mainly coming from movies frequently associating martial arts with monks, monasteries and eastern religions thus creating a stereotypical belief among the general public in the west. I see all the time instructors correcting this for new students. Most people understands it though after they study for a few months and they also look into the culture behind the art.

[hskwarrior]

this adrian chan person from the uk said it best it the right words.

like i said before, when bowing and using the 3 bows it was something used by the triads. the three bows are usually meant to represent the 3 tiks on the left side of the Hung character. the 3 tiks represent "Heaven Earth and Man".

only the schools that were closely connected to the Hung Society usually did that type of bow.

just take a look at the attachments and you will notice the same three tiks of the Hung ga style are the same as the ones on the left side of the Hung in CLF's Hung Sing.

[Phil Redmond]

Ad, can you explain why some people use a right open hand and a left closed fist? I've seen this done in my style and in other styles like Bak Mei an Lung Ying.
Phil

[Fung Ngan]

Phil,
Why others styles salute with the right hand open, I don’t know. But the schools that do are rare. On our site under the chapter of ‘fist manual’ we have put info about our salute. The ‘Pak Mei salute’ and the ‘Siu Lam salute’. May this will help?

(www.pakmeipai.nl)