Is the art dying out? I think not!

[imperialtaichi]

My question to you is: does this imply that eventually the art is dying out and that excellence and/or superhuman skills will vanish in time? Yang Jian Hou probably did not have the level of skill of his father, his student Wang Yong Chuen did not have 100% the skill of his master, Master Wei Shu Ren ditto etc..



Hello Francesco,

True, I think the level of skills had be decreasing for the last 100 years.... but definitely not dying!

Although we are not as dedicated it was in the old days, we are going through a revolution. Never before was information more accessable then now. We can buy books on energetic methods, access teachers with great skills, and discuss Tai Chi with people from all over the world. We are better educated, and we know how to ask questions and seek answers. In the old days, students only practiced what teachers dished out. They weren't even allowed to ask questions.

Plus the contemporary scientific methods are changing. A lot of orthodox Newtonean concepts are bending. This give us new ways to study all the weird and wonderful phenomenons associated with our Tai Chi practice.

I am sure we all have young students who are better than ourselves when we were at their age. Yes, I think we just went through the dark ages of Chinese Martial Arts, but the way things are going I am not surprised we will have somenone even better than Yang Lu Chan in 100 years.

Cheers,
John
p.s. thank you for your kind words regarding my website :)

[Billy]

I disagree. The arts are dying out. I predict that within 20 years or so, only hidden people, secret service, family lineage, that kind of thing, will have real martial arts power.

The signs are everywhere. Who is the big Kung Fu star now? There are no big kung fu stars. Kung fu is hard work. Now chinese people want cars and champagne. Who wants to train 20 hours a day hard work? There isn't even a Chuck Norris or Jean Claude Van Damme to keep martial arts of any kind in the public eye.

Watch Chinese Kung fu movies from the 1970's to the present. You can see the kung fu men getting soft right in front of your eyes. I have a collection of these movies. The stars from the early days all look very hard and strong. They all have a specific look about their bodies and heads.

Look at stars of today. They seem soft in comparison. There are many stars who are good, fantastic even. I believe the general trend is downwards though.

The emphasis in China has also changed. WuShu recieves a lot of attention in China. In my opinion, it is necessary to look at kung fu from the political perspective as well as the uplifting aspects. China has a long history of repressing martial artists becuase the martial artists were always the people who overthrew the dynasties.

In todays world, when Israel seems bent on world domination, the Chinese need every advantage they can get in the coming wars. Real true honest to god kung fu is an advantage of incalculable worth. Compare a kung fu man to a regular man. Compare a kung fu soldier to a regular soldier. The Chinese men and soldiers will all be a step or three above their opponennts. It is in the Chinese country political interest to keep real kung fu hidden.

The same political repression occurs in other countries. I saw a kung fu TV show purposefully killed. It was a popular show with a large viewership. The only reason I could think of for them killing it off was because they wanted to prevent kung fu from becoming a popular thing to young people. Kung Fu people are hard to control if you are a politician. They are independent and tend to do what is right, instead of the wrong things politicians usually order people to do.


On a completely different note

Western people are unwilling to listen or learn the real kung fu. That also contributes to the overall deterioration of kung fu. Look at the threads about Chi Gung. People actually waste months fighting with each other over whether Chi even exists or not. These peope will NEVER get real kung fu. They talk too much, and the doubt in their head will prevent them from ever gaining true kung fu skill.

Other things about kung fu that seem fanciful or outlandish to westerners are dismissed as fantasy. All of these stories have some basis in fact somewhere. Westerners cannot be bothered to search out the one fact that the story was based on. They are too direct and impatient to learn what kung fu is really about, deep down inside of the body.

It is really hard to teach people stuff these days. They are so certain they know everything, they refuse to open their minds. This too is contributing to the deterioriation of martial arts. Martial arts require a wide open mind that can listen to anything. If people slam the door of their mind shut on something they do not believe, that part of their mind and body will never learn kung fu.

[Brad]

Watch Chinese Kung fu movies from the 1970's to the present. You can see the kung fu men getting soft right in front of your eyes. I have a collection of these movies. The stars from the early days all look very hard and strong. They all have a specific look about their bodies and heads.

I think in general this has more to do with the nature of movies than the kungfu guys themselves. Chinese movies are getting more attention and bigger budgets than they ever did. Bigger budgets mean they need good looking charismatic actors rather than tough kungfu guys.

I'm not too clear what you're getting at with the rest of your post, so I'm not going to bother responding to it.


True, I think the level of skills had be decreasing for the last 100 years.... but definitely not dying!

I think it's increasing in some areas, and decreasing in others :p

1.I think due to modern science and the popularity of combat sports, there are more quality people showing up every year than in a long time...
2.I think the best of the best (guys like Chan Tai San from Ross's stories) are dying out because there's just not much need for that level of skill in today's world. You don't need a great deal of power and years of training to defend yourself from a mugger... also modern warfare is becoming increasingly long distance. The vast majority of us will never face a skilled oponent in a life or death situation. If we're in a life or death situation, odds are there will be a gun involved and a cool head will be much much more important than hand to hand skill.
3.I also think that the skill of quite a few teachers was exagerated... just take a look at the White Crane vs. Wu taiji video floating around out there compared with some of the stories... a lot of traditionalists of the past, I feel, would defenitely be prone to exageration due in large part to the cult like nature of a lot of kungfu groups (don't ask questions, teacher as a father figure, defend your teacher to the death, etc.). Of course it's impossible to prove/disprove much of the stories, so instead of comparing what the stories say the old masters could do to what we see around us, they should be taken more as inspiration to improve ourselves.
4.I think the whole idea of westerners killing kungfu is stupid and racist. I've known plenty of people in China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong. We're really not much different when looking at those living modern lives. People over there are sometimes more health concious than the average American, but most could really care less about kungfu. Kungfu for many over there is like square dancing to us... they might have done a little bit in school at some point, but would rather be hanging out with friends, going to movies, etc.

[WOW]

in general KF is dying, but also growing in popularity. more and more people are studying KF but the quality of teaching and learning is degrading. modern society is fast and furious - everybody want instant satisfaction. KF is all about hardwork - no secrets! most people just learn forms and teachers "sifu" learn complete sets of forms thinking they have learnt it all. essence of the system is being lost.

the internal aspects of all KF is being lost, especially those systems which is considered as "external". systems considered as "internal" are loosing their hard/combat edge.

[Scott R. Brown]

First we must examine what we mean by dying out.

1) Many today measure present skills against a mythical past. Stories passed down from generation to generation are not necessarily true or accurate descriptions of what actually transpired. If I watch an illusionist I may believe he has magical/mystical skills, but once I learn his secrets I am no longer in awe of his abilities. If I learn to perform the skills myself then I am even less impressed by the skills of other illusionists since I already know the secret and can most likely perform the skills myself!

If I observe someone with exceptional fighting skills, yet have little or no experience myself, the displayed abilities may appear super-human and I may be in awe. The uneducated mind makes up filler explanations for what it does not understand. Marital artists of today and yester-year have an investment in maintaining a sense of awe about their abilities. The awe and amazement of the uneducated provide social, emotional, financial and security oriented benefits for those seeking to propagate a mythical view. Therefore it would be in the best interest of those with fighting skills to encourage, or at least not interfere with, grandiose claims.

So my first comment would be that claims made regarding the past exploits and abilities of the Masters are not necessarily completely accurate or true.

2) Just because we are unaware of anyone who has the type of skill we expect or want there to exist does not mean they do not exist. Many skills require a certain level of maturity and insight to perform effectively and are not necessarily related to actual physical skill. Individuals who possess this level of insight and maturity are not likely to be interested in the fame and fortune provided by modern society. To acquire exceptional insight and maturity one must of necessity seek periods of solitude and where they may introspect to consider and integrate the insights perceived into their knowledge base. These individuals would also by a natural consequence of their personal insight and maturity see through the façade of society and not necessarily be interested in participating in it to any great measure.

In other words, they would be hard to find because they have no inherent need to demonstrate or show off their abilities. Their purpose being to perfect themselves and their skills first and then to pass the knowledge on if they feel so inclined.

3) There is no such thing as lost knowledge. Past knowledge that may not be presently known was once unknown in the past as well. The reason the knowledge was discovered, developed and applied was because there were those who were interested in discovering the knowledge and applying it in their lives. If it has existed in the past it may be re-discovered.

4) Consider present day athletes, they have greater skill and are better trained than any athlete of the past. To think that today’s Marital Artists are unable to surpass the abilities of Martial Artists of the past is not a reasonable conclusion to accept. This conclusion only applies if one accepts the hypothesis of secret mystical knowledge that is un-learnable except from a teacher. This also presumes the stories of old are factually accurate, which is questionable. However, if secret mystical knowledge truly exists then as was previously stated, since it was discovered once it may be discovered again. It may be easier to learn from an experienced teacher, but it is not necessarily a requirement unless one accepts the artificial limitation that states one MUST have a teacher! If you accept the limitation then you will be bound by it. I point out that one of the greatest swordsmen in the history of Japan, Miyamoto Musashi, stated he never had an instructor in swordsmanship!

It would seem that if one was interested in preserving the hypothetical skills of the past one should train hard, learn to meditate and learn as much as one can from many different sources. If one does not achieve the magical skills they were seeking it may be an indication that those skills were either exaggerated or non-existent in the first place.

[imperialtaichi]

....Marital artists of today and yester-year have an investment in maintaining a sense of awe about their abilities. The awe and amazement of the uneducated provide social, emotional, financial and security oriented benefits for those seeking to propagate a mythical view....



One of the most destructive factor in preservation of Kung Fu skills is GREED. Some years back I spent a short time (lucky I got out early!) learning from a teacher who did showed some level of skills. He claimed you have to do some hard practicing for at least 10yrs (plus spending 1000s of dollars on him) before you can get anywhere. But when you learn from him, he DELIBERATELY teaches you the wrong things and developes wrong habits so you will NEVER get there. That way he will always maintain the "sense of awe" and remain ahead of you. I have seen so many people being ripped off by him and left disolutioned. It is people like this who are dragging Kung Fu to the ground.

However, there are also lots of Kung Fu masters who are so willing to share his/her skills with you and you see improvement in your own skills very rapidly.

One of the Masters that I respect a lot and must mentioned is a skilled Bagua teacher Grandmaster Liu Jin Ru of Beijing. (I am totally neutral on this, as I do not do Bagua). When I first met him in Beijing, of course he would like us to learn Bagua from him. But when my friend wanted to learn other styles of Bagua, not only did he not get upset, he actually helped set us up with the other Bagua teacher. He also took us to all the best "back alley" places to buy martial art books. It is people like these who gave me great hope that there is a future in Kung Fu.





....It would seem that if one was interested in preserving the hypothetical skills of the past one should train hard, learn to meditate and learn as much as one can from many different sources....



And yes, experimenting and learning as much as one can from different sources is of utmost importance. While one should respect what one's trusted teacher's guidance, all teachers are human and being human means there's still room for error and improvement. A good teacher will never stop you from researching outside what he/she is teaching and try to develope skills beyond the teacher's level.

Cheers,
John

[Blacktiger]

Quote :One of the Masters that I respect a lot and must mentioned is a skilled Bagua teacher Grandmaster Liu Jin Ru of Beijing. (I am totally neutral on this, as I do not do Bagua). When I first met him in Beijing, of course he would like us to learn Bagua from him. But when my friend wanted to learn other styles of Bagua, not only did he not get upset, he actually helped set us up with the other Bagua teacher. He also took us to all the best "back alley" places to buy martial art books. It is people like these who gave me great hope that there is a future in Kung Fu.


Its funny you should mention Grandmaster Liu Jing Ru I was thinking of what he said to us the last time he visited us in Australia while reading this post.

He was saying that over the last century there has been a shft in the TCMA. He said all the top fighters back then were all Tai Chi practitioners and that alot of that knowledge has now been lost.

I could not agree more in your comments on the Grandmaster however he is one of the truly great masters of Bagua, 6 Harmonies Mantis, Xing Yi, Tai Chi -with a wealth of knowlegde. Just hanging round guys with his attitude and and skill give you a link to the past and times gone by.

I dont know if you met his two top diciples, the twins also very very good.

:D

[dwid]

The signs are everywhere. Who is the big Kung Fu star now? There are no big kung fu stars. Kung fu is hard work. Now chinese people want cars and champagne. Who wants to train 20 hours a day hard work? There isn't even a Chuck Norris or Jean Claude Van Damme to keep martial arts of any kind in the public eye.

Anything that requires 20 hours a day of training is an incredible waste of a life. Unless the end result is immortality, you have simply traded living for training, and that's just sad.

That said, I think more than anything, as Scott said, the myths are dying. Slower in some places than others, but in the harsh light of the modern world where everything is dissected, analyzed, and documented, it's harder to maintain mythic status. In a sense, this is a loss, as people will no longer have the impossible levels to aspire to, so there is a loss of that inspiration to train. But, as Brad said, people train with different purpose now.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(So my first comment would be that claims made regarding the past exploits and abilities of the Masters are not necessarily completely accurate or true.


Just because we are unaware of anyone who has the type of skill we expect or want there to exist does not mean they do not exist. Many skills require a certain level of maturity and insight to perform effectively and are not necessarily related to actual physical skill. Individuals who possess this level of insight and maturity are not likely to be interested in the fame and fortune provided by modern society. To acquire exceptional insight and maturity one must of necessity seek periods of solitude and where they may introspect to consider and integrate the insights perceived into their knowledge base. These individuals would also by a natural consequence of their personal insight and maturity see through the façade of society and not necessarily be interested in participating in it to any great measure.)

Some excellent thoughts. But having met a teacher that can do many of the things that the stories are made from I can say that the past stories are probably true and probably based on a more informed view point then many have to day. I feel this is so based in the fact that in those days there was more interest and reason to keep it real as they say then there is today.

There are things and ideas which we in the west really have no parallel with which in light of the information age and the adoption of many western points of view presents some problems even for those whose culture the arts originated from.

It is vital to have come in contact with people who can manifest the skills of old, in order to understand what is meant. the often used term sung, or relax is just one example of really not having many people around that can really use this and show others what is meant by it.

At this point I am finding that I am telling people, many are long time Chinese practicners of taiji that they must relax or sung more. By feeling what happens with when we push they understand but can not do…...yet.

i find it ironic at times since my own Chinese language skills are quite small, but I can say that while I may not be able to explain it, I can do it or know what it should be.

[Ray Pina]

The majority, I would say 87% of martial art schools and practioners, are self deluded and have no secure method of combat. However, that other percentile is flourishing right now.

I can only speak for myself, but as an internal stylist I can test my wedging against a Thai Boxer's kicking. I can check my structure and mechanics against a BJJ player trying to lock me. I can play with a boxer and deal with good punching ... all of this in a relatively safe way with little, and usually, no ego involved.

My martial arts is getting better. And I'm secure in 5 more years I'll have a pretty good understanding of internal martial arts in real fighting, hopefully have some good competitve experience under my belt.

This goes for all styles. Things are exploding today and people won't accept talk. People want to see and feel it for themselves in a live condition.

Your art will be as a live or dead as you make it. If you feel it's dying, get off life support (your a$$) and so something about it. Now is the time.

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Dr John,

Great clips mate, all this stuff fasinates me i must say. Does your movements work better the harder the person trys to hold or press, grab, push you?

You relying on structure and using leverage as well centerline?

awesome stuff, i remember watching you about 8 yrs ago at Andys school when you was doing this stuff, has it been that long? We must catch up for yum cha sometime love to pick your brain on this maybe you can help me understand a few things about my own systems was of soft power.

Regards
Garry:)

[imperialtaichi]

Great clips mate, all this stuff fasinates me i must say. Does your movements work better the harder the person trys to hold or press, grab, push you?

You relying on structure and using leverage as well centerline?



Hello Garry!

I'd say different strategies and movements for different situations. So it doesn't matter if the opponent is hard/soft/hold/press/grab/push, I just deal with it, and hopefully learn something from it. And what Ray was saying before hits the nail on the head: we all need to experience and practice with people from all sorts of discipline (without letting our ego get in the way) otherwise we're just kidding ourselves. The old masters didn't just fight Tai Chi dudes, they fought all kinds of people with all kind of weapons.

At the moment, I'm still relying on too much structure and leverage, but slowly learning to rely more on Yi Qi.

And yes, definitely we need to catch up for Yum Cha! I'll p.m. you later.

Cheers,
John

[fiercest tiger]

Hi John,

Cheers, its a long road but it can be done! Since starting Wun Yuen that hs opened my eyes to alot of stuff. Do you meditate or do much jaam jong?

Regards
Garry

[dainos]

The majority, I would say 87% of martial art schools and practioners, are self deluded and have no secure method of combat. However, that other percentile is flourishing right now.

I can only speak for myself, but as an internal stylist I can test my wedging against a Thai Boxer's kicking. I can check my structure and mechanics against a BJJ player trying to lock me. I can play with a boxer and deal with good punching ... all of this in a relatively safe way with little, and usually, no ego involved.

My martial arts is getting better. And I'm secure in 5 more years I'll have a pretty good understanding of internal martial arts in real fighting, hopefully have some good competitve experience under my belt.

This goes for all styles. Things are exploding today and people won't accept talk. People want to see and feel it for themselves in a live condition.

Your art will be as a live or dead as you make it. If you feel it's dying, get off life support (your a$$) and so something about it. Now is the time.


we need more people like you around here.

over time i still belive martal arts is dying according to forms and such. and notice alot of our time now is mostly taken up

most 2 year old kids go to a daycare center and we dont get out of school tell were about thirty (if we want to live decently) then work tell we are dead.
the other time is mostly spent cleaning up messes
the average person who learns kung fu down here is when they are in collage
so they got a full time job, collage, then kung fu

theyre totally exhausted when they get to kung fu so they learn slower.

back in the olden days the kung fu wasnt modifed so when you did my style
hung gar you sat in a seipingma for about an hour or two or however long yo were supposed to. today were kinda lazy and maybe do it only 20 minutes and rise up alot. i would say only 40 of the people in my kung fu school have broken the barrier me being one of them and currently the lowest ranking and once in a while sifu comes in and we accually have an hour or two warmup. im thinking it will be diffrent when im senior there and they will be more vigorous warmups and such. well we all will find out in a year wont we

[chud]

The arts are dying out. I predict that within 20 years or so, only hidden people, secret service, family lineage, that kind of thing, will have real martial arts power.

Interesting point. I don't mean to sound like a waffler but I agree and disagree. Over the years I have trained in various watered down commercial styles, but now I am fortunate enough to be learning authentic kung fu from one of those family lineages. I have made a promise to myself that when (if) I reach instructor-level I will teach the art as it was taught to me, without adding anything or watering it down. So in that respect, I feel that kung fu does have a chance of surviving. However I know that realistically most kung fu being taught now a days in shopping centers is not authentic.


Now chinese people want cars and champagne. Who wants to train 20 hours a day hard work?

True. In the old days people (both here and in China) had simple jobs living off the land and learned kung fu from family or people in their village. People walked everywhere and were more fit. People had time to think and train.


The emphasis in China has also changed. WuShu recieves a lot of attention in China. In my opinion, it is necessary to look at kung fu from the political perspective as well as the uplifting aspects. China has a long history of repressing martial artists becuase the martial artists were always the people who overthrew the dynasties.

I agree.


Western people are unwilling to listen or learn the real kung fu.

A few of us are. You sound like you are. Imperialtaichi sounds like he is, and so do several others here. It's up to each of us to preserve authentic kung fu.


That also contributes to the overall deterioration of kung fu. Look at the threads about Chi Gung. People actually waste months fighting with each other over whether Chi even exists or not. These peope will NEVER get real kung fu. They talk too much...

I agree, and I'd just like to add that it's important to realize that discussion on the internet about kung fu does not represent the sum total of kung fu knowledge today. For example, my sifu's three senior students rarely post online. I'm not sure why, maybe they're too busy training. :) But there are many senior students and masters who don't post online. Another example of the internet not representing kung fu reality is a discussion I had with a Chen stylist on another forum recently; this guy stated that he did not believe that a second Yang "fast form" existed, because he could not find video of it online. My statements that I had personally seen this form done by my sifu and senior students in my style did not matter to him; in his mind, if video of it didn't exist on the internet, it simply did not exist. Laughable, but true.


Other things about kung fu that seem fanciful or outlandish to westerners are dismissed as fantasy. All of these stories have some basis in fact somewhere. Westerners cannot be bothered to search out the one fact that the story was based on. They are too direct and impatient to learn what kung fu is really about, deep down inside of the body.

It is really hard to teach people stuff these days. They are so certain they know everything, they refuse to open their minds. This too is contributing to the deterioriation of martial arts. Martial arts require a wide open mind that can listen to anything. If people slam the door of their mind shut on something they do not believe, that part of their mind and body will never learn kung fu.

True. These people must at least be willing to "empty their cup" and listen.

[Blacktiger]

There are loads of people willing to train 20 hours a week etc.

As for learning authetic kung fu from a solid lineage, most of the time you need to do your research but it is out there you just need to do your homework.

I would also say that tons of masters/sifu's simply cant be bothered with the rubbish that goes on with some of these threads....

Most people I train with cant be bothered with the forums and the attitude is that these forums are usually full of too many idiots who spend more time using keyboard kung fu than actual training.

But the good stuff is out there and there are people taking steps, teaching and passing on stuff so as all will not be lost.

:p