Takedown V Attributes

[YungChun]

OR

"For God's sake take off the f#@ing Gi!!!"

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6883436735443317716&q=Sakuraba+vs+Royce

For anyone who hasn't seen this fight.

Here's Royce getting owned and without the fight really going to the traditional ground phase and finish that many have seen as nearly unavoidable especially with such a skilled ground fighter and takedown artist like Royce. IMO Kazushu Sakuraba's excellent use of distance management, use of his opponent's energy, position (and Gi :D ) plus other attributes are major factors that allowed him to dominate Royce in this match.

I'm sure others will have their opinions about the whys and whats in this one so please share any thoughts..

[anerlich]

This is pretty old and I would imagine most people would have seen it.

There is no question Royce is a skilled groundfighter, but I wouldn't put him in the top 1% of takedown artists by any stretch. Sakuraba IMO is much better at takedowns (his low single is excellent and super fast), and probably a much better all-around technical grappler (which wins over 3 other Gracies would substantiate - his reversal, throw and kimura to beat Renzo was a piece of technical brilliance).

Saku was the better fighter and better grappler on the day (and would have been on most other days as well). Keeping the fight standing as much as possible was not doubt a good strategy, though Saku would hardly have been out of his depth if the fight had hit the ground.

I am biased, being one of Saku's greatest fans.

Very little to do with WC here, but I can change that - watch Sakuraba v Allan Goes. Goes adopted a strategy of kicking and striking from the guard, not dissimilar from the "groundfighting" espoused by some WC styles including TWC,
and caused Saku significant problems throughout the entire match.

[chisauking]

These clips proves beyond any doubt that there's absolutely no comparision between street fighting and TV shows. People who cite these fights in support of their own fighting strategy and how fighting have advanced in the last 10-years know fighting not at all.

Just look at clips.....Royce had his groins exposed (excuse the pun), but the other guy choose to punch his face instead. Another stupid technique that's often used is one guy would wrap his legs around his opponent. If you did that moronic technique on the street, you would get your spine smashed on cold concrete.

Are these fights reflective of true life?

Some may think so. The same ones that think we can evaluate wing chun's effectiveness --- or limits -- under the same conditions

[ghostofwingchun]

These clips proves beyond any doubt that there's absolutely no comparision between street fighting and TV shows. People who cite these fights in support of their own fighting strategy and how fighting have advanced in the last 10-years know fighting not at all.

Just look at clips.....Royce had his groins exposed (excuse the pun), but the other guy choose to punch his face instead. Another stupid technique that's often used is one guy would wrap his legs around his opponent. If you did that moronic technique on the street, you would get your spine smashed on cold concrete.

Are these fights reflective of true life?

Some may think so. The same ones that think we can evaluate wing chun's effectiveness --- or limits -- under the same conditions

This may have been said before . . . if so I am sorry for duplicate . . . of course fight in ring or sport is not the same as fight in street or selfdefense . . . it is not meant to be . . . BJJ for example is modified based on where and how it is used . . . BJJ in gi tourney . . . different fgrom BJJ in no gi tourney . . . different from BJJ in MMA . . . different from BJJ in street . . . how BJJ is applied depends on circumstances . . . but grappling fighting skill is the same across spectrum of BJJ. This is also true of boxing or muay thai or wrestling and so on . . . what they normally do is modified for MMA . . . and modified again for street . . . it is skill and experience that permits this. The sport part and the MMA part only allow for greater development of skill . . . since sport means getting lots of practice using it . . . since can not get so much experience in street . . . I can roll or box every day . . . I do not want to street fight unless I can help it. Lots of great . . . and not so great . . . BJJ fighters have had many many street fights . . . BJJ was proven in streets of Brazil . . . and those are pretty means streets . . . not just ring. In fact, some of older generation BJJ fighters have had more street fights than MMA fights. So I agree that clips of MMA fight are not necessarily great . . . though some times can be . . . for this is how you should fight in street . . . but they do show level of skill being applied . . . and can show gaps in skill too.

Thanks,

Ghost

[Knifefighter]

Are these fights reflective of true life?

Some may think so. The same ones that think we can evaluate wing chun's effectiveness --- or limits -- under the same conditions

So, how do you personally evaluate wing chun's effectiveness --- or limits?

[chisauking]

Ghost sez: of course fight in ring or sport is not the same as fight in street or selfdefense.

Thank you, Ghost....but then, why do some on this forum treat it as gospel? Why do people guage the effectivess base on these TV shows?

Knifefighter, my old friend, it's quite easy to test if you are any good -- use it on the street, with someone genuinely trying his best to smash your FK face in. However, in this day and age, it's not advisable to go round looking for violence...but there's a way to circumvent the law....Just like many of my fellow wing chun practitioners, get yourself a job where violence is part and parcel of the job.....like sercurity guard in a very violent club, a pub landlord in a scumbag council house estate, an enforcer in the local triad or money lender....

Or, just like good old Derek Jones, go to gypsy camps where they have bareknuckle fights for money...

[Edmund]

Very little to do with WC here, but I can change that - watch Sakuraba v Allan Goes. Goes adopted a strategy of kicking and striking from the guard, not dissimilar from the "groundfighting" espoused by some WC styles including TWC,
and caused Saku significant problems throughout the entire match.

Sakuraba vs Crocop was another one where Crocop kicked up from the guard to win the match.

[Edmund]

Thank you, Ghost....but then, why do some on this forum treat it as gospel?

They don't.
You're just that biased that you see any criticism as an affront to WC.

[stricker]

hey chisauking,

ok fair enough thats a realistic test, but ive got a few problems with it. first up how can you be progressive with it?? theres no safety you just get smashed up/stabbed whatever. with the risk of death or serious injury plus all the shady drug dealing and stuff that goes on is it worth it?? maybe its ok for the wing chunner with 10 years of serious training but what about more ordinary people? lots of amateur mma fights for those who want to fight at a lower level with some safety and fairness.

second i dont base wing chuns effectiveness or not on tv shows i base my level of ability on me. so if i go spar with an mma fighter and get beat up i know I have to improve. I dont give a **** about the gracies really. also not all mma fights look the same. the manhoef vs cyborg fight at the last cage rage was mostly stand up and an awesome fight. check it out and let us know what you think of that!

third as ghost said of course its different. no up in your face arguing stuff no bottles in yer face no gang ready to shoe you in but apart from that in many ways mma is very realistic compared to say boxing. nearly all the real fights ive seen start with a load of wild punches then go to stand up wrestling and clinch stuff (good old headlocks and stuff like that) then usually someone ends up on the floor trying to get back up. that bit i think IS very realistic. ok ok maybe going for an ankle lock from guard doesnt happen very often but still doesnt mean you cant use mma for a useful tool. eg is chisao realistic?? no. is it useful? yes. same as mma. take whats useful ignore the fluff

also, one of the guys i train mma with has been to gypsy barenuckle fights and they have rules too. its a kind of boxing, and very sloppy from what i hear. if one falls they get up, theres no kicks, and a few other rules i cant remember. in fact someone who travels quite a distance to train mma said theres a gypsy training up for a fight at his local boxing gym. he said they wouldnt last 2 minutes against a decent boxer or thai fighter. of course there the last people on earth to get in any trouble with unless you like fighting with knives and shotguns :eek:

[ghostofwingchun]

Ghost sez: of course fight in ring or sport is not the same as fight in street or selfdefense.

Thank you, Ghost....but then, why do some on this forum treat it as gospel? Why do people guage the effectivess base on these TV shows?


There is much to see in NHB or MMA fight . . . if one know what to look for.


Knifefighter, my old friend, it's quite easy to test if you are any good -- use it on the street, with someone genuinely trying his best to smash your FK face in. However, in this day and age, it's not advisable to go round looking for violence...but there's a way to circumvent the law....Just like many of my fellow wing chun practitioners, get yourself a job where violence is part and parcel of the job.....like sercurity guard in a very violent club, a pub landlord in a scumbag council house estate, an enforcer in the local triad or money lender....

Or, just like good old Derek Jones, go to gypsy camps where they have bareknuckle fights for money...

I am thinking you must be joking . . . but in case you are serious . . . to win fight on street will only means one is better fighter than opponent . . . not necessarily that one is a very good fighter . . . or that technique or art is good . . . just that you are better than guy on street . . . beating up on untrained or misusing security post is being bully and not indication of good fighter . . . good fighter is someone that can beat other good fighter. For example . . . if the ground was a swimming pool then the untrained person is a very poor swimmer . . . and a BJJ purple is a shark . . . lol . . . untrained not much of a challenge for shark . . . but there are bigger and hungrier sharks . . . but one will not find them on street since they only grow that big on mat . . . same for stand up fighters.

Thanks,

Ghost

[chisauking]

Edmud sez: They don't.
You're just that biased that you see any criticism as an affront to WC.

I guess we are all bias in some way, shaped by our own experiences and idiosyncrases. But if you are utterly truthful with yourself, you know you can TEST yourself if you really choose to do so. Why restrict yourself to the confines of safety when the reality of truth lies waiting for you should you choose to take that path.

I lot of people on this forum don't like what I say, because what i say comes from the heart. Most people on this forum probably never ever had a real fight in their entire lives, and they are too afriad to find the truth for themselves, so they base their experience on fighting by those TV shows and judge wing chun's effectiveness by account of wing chun not winning those shows -- and proceed to say wing chun lacks this and that.

Well, I have got news for those people -- tough titties. I will say what ever is true -- even if it means shattering your illusions and making you cry. Yes, there is no tooth fairys or santa claus. Yes, there are NO ways to prove wing chun's effectiveness and efficiency, with the exception of going full out on the street. You will never ever see wing chun working if you put a birdcage on your head, wrap your hands with cotton wool, and restrict yourselves with rules and conditions.

If people don't like me to say wing chun doesn't need mixing with anything else, and those shows are not a reflection of reality fighting ---- prove me wrong. Come, see if I can intercept your roundhouse kicks with my boot; see if I can damage your spine if you wrap your legs around me whilst fighting on hard concrete; see whether I would punch your face or your testicles if given the option.

you can always fool others, but you will never fool yourself. If the truth hurts, tough shiiitttt.

[Edmund]

You've pretty much illustrated my point.

You're biased and can't handle criticism.
Anything that disagrees with you insults your idea of the "truth".

The topic wasn't even about the relevance of MMA fighting but you keep bringing it up because you've got a chip on your shoulder.

[Knifefighter]

chisauking-
You are 100% right. Fighting regularly in the street or as part of one's job is a much better test of an art's effectiveness than soley fighting in sport competitions. If you are regularly doing this and winning, then your WC is indeed serving you well. What is is that regularly puts you in these types of situations?

[Ultimatewingchun]

" lot of people on this forum don't like what I say, because what i say comes from the heart. Most people on this forum probably never ever had a real fight in their entire lives, and they are too afraid to find the truth for themselves, so they base their experience on fighting by those TV shows and judge wing chun's effectiveness by account of wing chun not winning those shows -- and proceed to say wing chun lacks this and that.

Well, I have got news for those people -- tough titties. I will say what ever is true -- even if it means shattering your illusions and making you cry. Yes, there is no tooth fairys or santa claus. Yes, there are NO ways to prove wing chun's effectiveness and efficiency, with the exception of going full out on the street. You will never ever see wing chun working if you put a birdcage on your head, wrap your hands with cotton wool, and restrict yourselves with rules and conditions.

If people don't like me to say wing chun doesn't need mixing with anything else, and those shows are not a reflection of reality fighting ---- prove me wrong. Come, see if I can intercept your roundhouse kicks with my boot; see if I can damage your spine if you wrap your legs around me whilst fighting on hard concrete; see whether I would punch your face or your testicles if given the option.

you can always fool others, but you will never fool yourself. If the truth hurts, tough shiiitttt" (chisauking)



***WELL, CHISAUKING....that's real tough talk....but I, for one, am the exception to your rule (and I know that I'm not the only one).

I've fought on the street a number of times since taking up wing chun...in the 70's..in the 80's...the 90's...and as recently as October, 2000 on a moving subway train. (And in one incident in the 80's it was against two guys).

AND I TRAIN WITH THE HEADGEAR WITH FACE CAGE....which you like to target with the snotty phrase "birdcage".

And wing chun works real well in certain instances - and in other instances I've chosen to use rear crosses and boxing hook punches...and a takedown to the ground and pound - because that's what fit the moment.

AND I TRAIN WITH THE HEADGEAR WITH THE FACE CAGE...because I understand the importance of frequent hard spontaneous sparring - and so to avoid injuries we use protective gear...in addition to bareknuckled lighter contact sparring.

It's not the either/or situation that you would like us to think.

And many of those guys on the "TV shows" that you refer to (I assume you mean UFC and Pride stuff)...are the kind of guy I would advise that you take your blade with you if you ever make an appointment to meet them somewhere. :rolleyes: :cool:

NOW ALL THAT SAID...yes...wing chun is a street art first and foremost because more often than not a street situation will be close quarters...not much dancing around like boxers and kickboxers...but certainly plenty of chances for a grab, clinch, and grapple type of fight...and with the shoes on (a straight heel kick to the legs can be very formidable when wearing a shoe)...

so yes...the street is one thing...the ring in front of a TV camera can be different.

But let's not use that difference as a catch-all excuse to bypass the need for realistic training - which should include lots of geared up competitive sparring or even some sparring tournaments from time-to-time....and let's not use that as an excuse to pooh-pooh the value of grappling and other moves (like some boxing) that do work very well on the street - and in some situations - will work better than the wing chun moves.

Otherwise we sit in our kwoons and just tell Santa Claus that we are the baddesssst mofo he's
ever delivered a Christmas gift to.

THERE ARE WAYS TO PROVE WING CHUN'S EFFECTIVENESS SHORT OF ACTUALLY FIGHTING IN THE STREET....when sparring with protection.

And amoung friends - or in an organized tournament....otherwise...yes, it's better in the street.

[puma]

YES YES YES!!!!
Now thats what i like....a Gracie getting his a$$ handed
to 'em
Like i said before that bjj or mma sh.. ain't the end of the world
ha ha ha ha haaaa!:D

[chisauking]

OK, Victor: let me ask you this simple question. How would you demonstrate the use of tan-dar against someone that's 20lbs hevier than yourself, and he can use full and continuos force, whilst wearing a birdcage and boxing gloves?

[chisauking]

Knifefighter sez: What is is that regularly puts you in these types of situations?

Answer: DANGER



Ghost: you wasting your time in training. Carry on watching WWW, WFC, K100,

[ghostofwingchun]

Ghost: you wasting your time in training. Carry on watching WWW, WFC, K100,

Thank you for advice . . . I will carry on none the less . . . lol . . . and consider watching NHBs as part of education . . . but it is fine you feel differently . . . diversity of opinion is great thing . . . in the end what matters is if your training serves your needs . . . we do not all have same needs or goals . . . so it is not surprising that our training and opinions vary.

Thanks,

Ghost

[chisauking]

That's exactly what I mean, Ghost. Your opinions is based on watching TV shows, my facts are based on actual fighting.

My own experiences says those TV shows don't reflect what happends in a real fight, some other's experiences, based on those shows, says it does. That's why I have been saying all along experiences are not the same.

The thread was about attributes and takedowns, but in the persective of wing chun fighting, it just isn't realistic. But I guess it is hard to convince people when millions believe in WWF WTF wrestling.

Each to their own.

[ghostofwingchun]

That's exactly what I mean, Ghost. Your opinions is based on watching TV shows, my facts are based on actual fighting.

My own experiences says those TV shows don't reflect what happends in a real fight, some other's experiences, based on those shows, says it does. That's why I have been saying all along experiences are not the same.

The thread was about attributes and takedowns, but in the persective of wing chun fighting, it just isn't realistic. But I guess it is hard to convince people when millions believe in WWF WTF wrestling.

Each to their own.

Please tell us about all your actual fights and fighting experience . . . I am sure everyone is interested in this views of some one with this extensive back ground . . . is there any documentation of your fights . . . any video for example . . . have you fought anyone that was well trained? Or is this case of trust you?

Thanks,

Ghost

[Fajing]

is there any documentation of your fights . . . any video for example . . .Or is this case of trust you?Ghost


Dear God people, give up the video thing. :confused: Clearly if you have been in a REAL fight, you surely didn't get it on tape. Things happen too randomly. Unless maybe you were one of the Real World cast.:p Now if you're sparring will others for pure practice/experience, then you can record/make clips. :D That makes sense.;)

[jmdrake]

YES YES YES!!!!
Now thats what i like....a Gracie getting his a$$ handed
to 'em
Like i said before that bjj or mma sh.. ain't the end of the world
ha ha ha ha haaaa!:D

Ummm...hate to break it to you but Sakuraba is an MMA...oh nevermind.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[jmdrake]

OK, Victor: let me ask you this simple question. How would you demonstrate the use of tan-dar against someone that's 20lbs hevier than yourself, and he can use full and continuos force, whilst wearing a birdcage and boxing gloves?

Ummm...maybe you use mma gloves instead of boxing gloves and maybe you work against someone your own weight instead of 20 lbs heavier? (Unless you think WC only works against heavier opponents). And if that doesn't work you can skip the face cage and just use a mouthpiece.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[puma]

Ummm...hate to break it to you but Sakuraba is an MMA...oh nevermind.

Regards,

John M. Drake

Thanks...I didn't know that...my first time hearing about or seeing the guy was yesterday.
With the help of all of you guys i'm slowly but surely learning about mma and bjj and truthfully speaking...i do like mma.
I guess i'm biased against it because I hear people trash traditional forms of fighting in favor of mma or bjj...and i think mma and bjj is HIGHLY OVERRATED
in contrast to traditional chinese kung fu,but at the same time i wouldn't say that
some of it wouldn't work on the streets either???
Still, it was cool seeing Gracie getting his a$$ whupped:D :D

[ghostofwingchun]

Dear God people, give up the video thing. :confused: Clearly if you have been in a REAL fight, you surely didn't get it on tape. Things happen too randomly. Unless maybe you were one of the Real World cast.:p Now if you're sparring will others for pure practice/experience, then you can record/make clips. :D That makes sense.;)

I see . . . so real fights only happen when no one is looking . . . when no one has video camera or security camera . . . they take place in secret . . . and all we can do is take people word for it . . . OK but this sounds very much like alien abductions . . . lol. I guess I will trust what I can see . . . and what I can experience. . . and what can be reproduced . . . and what can be demonstrated on demand . . . and let you guys who want it have the secret elusive real fights.

Thanks,

Ghost

[anerlich]

Unless maybe you were one of the Real World cast.

What about Jerry Springer? Oh wait, they has some MMA fighters on there once.

Guess you can't find MMA-unsullied fighting anywhere these days ... :p

Um, do Cheung/Boztepe and Mazza/Draheim count as "real WC fights"? Is THAT WC legitimacy? The first is even on video ... unfortunately.


Still, it was cool seeing Gracie getting his a$$ whupped

Why, exactly? Was he rude to your mother or something?

[Fajing]

I see . . . so real fights only happen when no one is looking . . . when no one has video camera or security camera . . . they take place in secret . . . and all we can do is take people word for it . . . OK but this sounds very much like alien abductions . . . lol. I guess I will trust what I can see . . . and what I can experience. . . and what can be reproduced . . . and what can be demonstrated on demand . . . and let you guys who want it have the secret elusive real fights.

Thanks,

Ghost

Please post the video clips of the REAL street altercations you have been in. I would like to see them, and maybe learn from them as well. :)

[Fajing]

What about Jerry Springer? Oh wait, they has some MMA fighters on there once.

Sorry, I've never seen that show, and don't plan to start. :rolleyes:



Um, do Cheung/Boztepe count as "real WC fights"? Is THAT WC legitimacy? The first is even on video ... unfortunately.

I did see this one.

I guess I'm sorry to say that I'm one of the few who have no street altercations on tape. In the very few I've been in, no one apparently was standing by with a digital camera. Oh, and I didn't see a boom guy either. I must be behind on these things. :rolleyes: My appologies, but feel free to post all of the REAL STREET fights you have been in on here. I seriously would like to watch them, jokes aside. :cool:

[puma]

No...he wasn't rude to my mother..anerlich:)
Every fight footage I have seen posted online
of a Gracie whupping on somebody...especially
someone with martial arts training....you hear
another Gracie in the background claiming
such and such art is inferior in comparison to
theirs....Bullsh..!!!
For me...even though it was a mix martial artist
it was VERY SATISFYING to see Roce Gracie get
that a$$ spanked:D :D


For those of you who swear by bjj..I'm not saying that
it's ineffective
However compared to traditional chinese martial arts or
just some down in the gutter no holds barred street fighting....
it's OVERRATED!!!
Go to a neighborhood in an "urban community" or the hood as
some of you would like to refer to it as and try bjj on some one
that know what their doing...and your a$$ is going to get handed
to you:D :D :D

[Mr Punch]

I lot of people on this forum don't like what I say, because what i say comes from the heart.And then, a lot of people don't like what you say because you sound like a narrow-minded dogmatic obnoxious sociopathic 15-year-old with Tourettes, incapable of having a conversation without sneering and belittling people who have a different view.
Most people on this forum probably never ever had a real fight in their entire lives, and they are too afriad to find the truth for themselves...
Well, I have got news for those people -- tough titties. I will say what ever is true -- even if it means shattering your illusions and making you cry. Yes, there is no tooth fairys or santa claus. ...So who's in the fantasy son? There is no truth in anything, only opinion and experience: I found no truth and no experience worth repeating from getting kicked unconscious, from laying into someone with my para boots, from hitting someone in the balls and him slamming my head into a wall, from the countless battles I've had... I just grew up, starting avoiding that BS and enjoying my life!:p

Anyway, wasted enough time on that...

Puma, I don't think I've ever heard a Gracie saying stuff like their art is superior to others: they just get on with their training and matches, unlike a lot of the chattering little sparrows on here. Plus, if they were really so superior would they have bothered doing a seminar with Sam Kwok in the UK last year?

The only other MMA guys I've heard spouting off have been in response to verbal diarrhea like this:
However compared to traditional chinese martial arts or
just some down in the gutter no holds barred street fighting....
it's OVERRATED!!!
...try bjj on some one
that know what their doing...and your a$$ is going to get handed
to youGo and do some training!:p

The subject...? I like Sakuraba's fighting style and I think he's quite a nice bloke. Er, that's it really.

[ghostofwingchun]

Please post the video clips of the REAL street altercations you have been in. I would like to see them, and maybe learn from them as well. :)

I am sorry but I have never been in street fight as adult . . . I could tell you that I had of course . . . make up huge number . . . with multiple opponents . . . some armed even . . . and say my wc was so good I won them all . . . I am wanted by law on several continents I am so bad . . . lol . . .. sure you would believe me right? My fighting . . . as it is . . . is restricted to gym . . . against other poor sport people . . . we are not that good . . . and are very happy those who have had millions of street fights and are so deadly never show up to compete with us . . . after all we do not want to be maimed blinded or die.

Thanks,

Ghost

[Fajing]

I am sorry but I have never been in street fight as adult . . . I could tell you that I had of course . . . make up huge number . . . with multiple opponents . . . some armed even . . . and say my wc was so good I won them all . . . I am wanted by law on several continents I am so bad . . . lol . . .. sure you would believe me right? My fighting . . . as it is . . . is restricted to gym . . . against other poor sport people . . . we are not that good . . . and are very happy those who have had millions of street fights and are so deadly never show up to compete with us . . . after all we do not want to be maimed blinded or die.

Thanks,

Ghost

Ah ha...well at least you're honest about this. I have been in very few myself, and prefer to avoid them ALL if possible. After listening to some people on the forum, it almost sounds like they're fighting on a daily basis. It's good to avoid fighting, however my only point was, when something does go down, you probably won't have someone standing by with a video camera. Sure this happens all of the time at events that are already being filmed; such as seminars, TV shows, and MMA events, but in our everyday lives we're probably not constantly being recorded like that. PEACE;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

OK, Victor: let me ask you this simple question. How would you demonstrate the use of tan-dar against someone that's 20lbs hevier than yourself, and he can use full and continous force, whilst wearing a birdcage and boxing gloves?


***FIRST OF ALL, csk....

It's about time you stop using the derogatory phrase "birdcage" to describe headgear with a metal facecage....since by soing so you not only continue to come across as snotty and arrogant - but you also contradict the "I'm a rough tough wing chun guy" persona that you occasionally try to foster in some of your outbursts.

Why do I say that?

Because if you, chisauking, actually do engage in frequent hard contact spontaneous sparring - and since so much of wing chun is geared toward punching or palm striking someone's face or head - then you should know that protection and safeguards need to be used to avoid the kinds of injuries that would make such frequent sparring impossible to do.

So once again I have to say that I doubt it quite highly that you actually engage in this kind of realistic training.

Secondly....you loaded your question about tan da by referring to boxing gloves.

Who ever said anything about boxing gloves?

So I'll answer a more pertinent question:

Using thin, semi-fingerless gloves against someone wearing the headgear that I described - and he's using "full and continous force"...and he's 20 lbs. heavier...

Yes...tan-da can be done. Will it have the same exact effect as if there were no gloves and no headgear with a metal facecage?

No. A full force tan da might stop him in his tracks with no gear - whereas the other way he might shake it off somewhat and keep coming.

BUT THAT'S PART OF THE TRADE-OFF one makes when wanting to train with realistic spontaneous full contact.

You just don't seem to want to get that point, do you?

All done in addition to frequent lighter contact spontaneous sparring with no equipment.

[jmdrake]

Thanks...I didn't know that...my first time hearing about or seeing the guy was yesterday.
With the help of all of you guys i'm slowly but surely learning about mma and bjj and truthfully speaking...i do like mma.
I guess i'm biased against it because I hear people trash traditional forms of fighting in favor of mma or bjj...and i think mma and bjj is HIGHLY OVERRATED
in contrast to traditional chinese kung fu,but at the same time i wouldn't say that
some of it wouldn't work on the streets either???
Still, it was cool seeing Gracie getting his a$$ whupped:D :D

Hey, I can understand the sentiment. But when someone outgrapples a Gracie it hardly does anything to promote Chinese kung fu. Notice on the clip that Sakaruba had better takedowns. (I counted at least three). And yeah, he had better striking too, but it wasn't "Chinese Kung Fu" striking. Nothing against Chinese Kung Fu, it's just that this clip didn't demonstrate any.

Respect in the MMA world is something Chinese kung fu fighters will have to earn on their own. Other styles have done so already. Maurice Smith proved kickboxing could be effective against grappling. (Now most of the top fighters do some mixture of kickboxing and grappling). A couple of years ago I remember a judo fighter winning his division. (Before that I saw a lot of MMA "keyboard warriors" downing judoka.) I've got an MMA dvd showing a karate fighter knocking out a muy/thai - bjj fighter. The announcers kept talking about how he was "one of the few that can make that traditional martial arts stuff work in the ring." There's even a capoeira stylist that's done well recently in MMA.

http://www.jeansilva.co.uk/downloads/video/highlights_small.wmv

There are more and more WC stylists crosstraining for MMA bouts. Of course, for some ODD reason, people only look at their grappling training and assume THAT must be the sole reason for their success. (I say that's ODD because that doesn't happen to muy thai stylists or kyokusin stylists ect.)

Regards,

John M. Drake

[puma]

Hello Mat...how are you doing today:)
I don't believe my statement should
be considered "verbal diarrhea"
I'm just expressing an opinion like
everyone else on this forum does:)
...and my statement wasn't towards mma
...it was towards bjj..and I still stand firmly
behind my opinion...bjj is overrated
As far as the training goes...I plan on
getting some formal training,but i can't
make up my mind on what:)

The two video footage I've seen of a Gracie
in action were both posted on the kung fu
magazine forum...one was a Gracie up against
a kung fu guy and another was a Gracie fighting
a guy on a beach and each time there was a Gracie
speaking on how inferior strikes,kicks and punches
alone were useless against bjj...nonsense!!!!

[anerlich]

you hear
another Gracie in the background claiming
such and such art is inferior in comparison to
theirs....Bullsh..!!!


Just as well we practice the fine art of Wing Chun, which has no such issues of practitioners berating each other, their systems or other martial artists :p :p :p

In Sakuraba's case, I agree the Gracies have been world class revisionists when it comes to their bouts with him, despite the fact the he beat Renzo convincingly by breaking his arm (renzo reportedly refused to submit), and no one else seems to see much controversy about the results.

But that's a criticism of the Gracies, not BJJ. Arguably, Sakuraba does the same thing they do, albeit better than at least some of them. So saying this match bursts the BJJ bubble is nonsensical. It's about one fighter being better than another.


Go to a neighborhood in an "urban community" or the hood as
some of you would like to refer to it as and try bjj on some one
that know what their doing...and your a$$ is going to get handed

Wing Chun ain't going to give you any force field of invincibility in such situations either. What sort of moron would do this by choice in any case? A great way to get a multiple assailant beating or gunshot wound. Try stopping that with a tan sao.

[Fajing]

It's about one fighter being better than another.

Indeed. :cool:


Wing Chun ain't going to give you any force field of invincibility in such situations either. What sort of moron would do this by choice in any case? A great way to get a multiple assailant beating or gunshot wound. Try stopping that with a tan sao.

Nice. :p Can't disagree with that!:p

[chisauking]

Victor: I will tell you exactly what would happen if you try a simple wing chun combination like tan-dar on someone that's bigger then you, and can use REAL resistance, whilst both of you are using boxing gloves....western boxing.

You will be covering your centreline so the only way your opponent can hit you is to take a deter round. Since he's taking a longer path, you can step in with a simple tan-dar......but ho, ho, ho....your gloves would have cushioned most of your impact, so even though you would have intercepted and hit your opponent first, he can still retaliate. You both be exchanging blows because the gloves would cushion a lot of the impact, and this continuence of fighting is in no way a true refection of what would happen in a real fight with no gloves.

Ah, you say we wouldn't be wearing thick boxing gloves but thin open finger gloves....Then I would ask you this, what is the difference between bare knuckles and very thin gloves?

And that, my friend, is what I meant about wing chun doesn't work with birdcage and boxing gloves.

If you wrap cotton wool over a hammer, you would cushion the impact of the hammer, and the only way to induce more impact is by getting a bigger hammer. In training with boxing gloves, the only way to gain more power is by using larger movements -- like right \ rear crosses, otherwise, you would risk the continuence to exchange blows with your opponent. But guess what? You are no longer practising wing chun's centre punch. You have reverted to western boxing.

On a final note, I didn't say you shouldn't wear proctection at a very low level of training. I simply state on many occasions that you have to go beyond this stage in order to train probably the most important aspect of fighting --- the mental MIND. Proctection in training has its place, but if this is the only way you train, you will never experience the real feel.

For all the great fighters that mocked me and asked for video edvidence of my fighting skills....Show me the same edvidence of your own real fights which you have use your legs to wrap around your opponent, jumped into a kick, not use your foot at all in bridging the gape, and WON the fight......then I promise I will show you my fights. Better then that, I will welcome you to show me in person since I'm forever the learner.

I respect all TRUE experiences gain from reality, but when people on this forum base their opinion of wing chun's effectivness on TV shows, that is a different matter.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"You will be covering your centreline so the only way your opponent can hit you is to take a deter round. Since he's taking a longer path, you can step in with a simple tan-dar......but ho, ho, ho....your gloves would have cushioned most of your impact, so even though you would have intercepted and hit your opponent first, he can still retaliate. You both be exchanging blows because the gloves would cushion a lot of the impact, and this continuence of fighting is in no way a true refection of what would happen in a real fight with no gloves." (csk)


LOOK, CSK...why are we even talking about big fat boxing gloves? What's the point?

.................


"Ah, you say we wouldn't be wearing thick boxing gloves but thin open finger gloves....Then I would ask you this, what is the difference between bare knuckles and very thin gloves" (csk)


***QUITE A BIT. For instance, one pair that I sometimes use when sparring are labelled "bag gloves" on the box they come in. Starting to get the picture how much smaller and lighter weight they are than boxing gloves? And half of the fingers (including the thumb) are exposed. Much thinner and lighter than boxing gloves. They won't cushion the way you describe in the tan da scenario.

But the real difference is that bareknuckled and no headgear means more realistic sense of reach and impact - both offensively and defensively...so therefore lighter contact has to be the name of the game or else injuries occur too easily and frequently.

...................


"On a final note, I didn't say you shouldn't wear protection at a very low level of training. I simply state on many occasions that you have to go beyond this stage in order to train probably the most important aspect of fighting --- the mental MIND. (csk)


***AT A LOW LEVEL...yes...protection is good. Gets the practitioner's feet wet without having to wait "years" before sparring...AND AT A HIGH LEVEL...YES AGAIN...protection is good because the other high level guy in this scenario - your sparring partner - has a better chance of hurting you than the lower level guy.

Conclusion:

Sparring with protective gear is always useful and beneficial - regardless of what level you're at.

........................


"Protection in training has its place, but if this is the only way you train, you will never experience the real feel." (csk)


***AND I ADVOCATE SPARRING (lightly)...and sometimes a "little bit rougher" (than light) without any protection also.

So that the "real feel" is experienced to a certain extent. But make no mistake about it - short of an actual streetfight...the full contact sparring with protection is much more realistic (because of the speed and power) than lighter sparring with no gear. The face cage, chest protector, etc. might save you from receiving broken teeth, jaw, black eyes, broken ribs, etc. - but the shockwaves are very real.

[chisauking]

Victor, each to their own.

But I seriously think you are denying the continuence factor in sparring, and practising with 'peace of mind', since you are both protected, you are missing out on the mental aspect of training.

With this form of sparring, the emphasis is not on developing the proper wing chun response, but get the most hardest punch in to prevent your opponent from exchanging blows.

Further more, the regular impact on your brain training with a birdcage, or helmet if you like, as opposed to a simple crippling punch to the kidneys, is far more damaging in the long term to the particpants. In other words, without helmets and gloves I can stop my opponent with one punch. With the proctection, you are both exchanging damaging blows to your brain, and the real VICTOR is the guy who can endure the bashing the longest.

[chisauking]

May I also add, as my original point, exchanging blows with a bigger and stronger opponent, your opponent would have all the advantages. More importantly, no wing chun training is taking place.

[YungChun]

With this form of sparring, the emphasis is not on developing the proper wing chun response, but get the most hardest punch in to prevent your opponent from exchanging blows.


Delivering blows in WCK should involve the disruption of the opponent's structure, his balance, his timing, his focus, his ability to respond effectively if even for a moment. This is one of the reasons we target the "center" which also relates to the opponent's center of gravity. Even if the "hit" was a push it should steal balance and remove the opponent's ability to ground until he can reposition, if he can.

With full power blows landing in this fashion, as in a fist, palm or for that matter, elbows, etc. to the chin or right part of the head can and will knock someone out with or without a face cage, headgear or mouthpiece and with almost any kind of ****ed glove, IF the person delivering it does so with correct body mechanics and timing. Boxers wear head gear and use big ole gloves and still manage to knock each other out with a single strike.

If a person just stands motionless in front of you wearing face cage gear and you are wearing NHB gloves and you can't drop the guy, knock him out or seriously stun him without him resisting, then you have no power in your technique and you almost certainly would not be able to do any better without the gloves and head gear, in fact you probably would just hurt your hand.

Anyone who has sparred with hard contact knows that despite using this kind of gear, powerful shots still hurt, debilitate and can knock you out, serious injuries can happen and the gear has lots of limits, meaning in some cases it doesn't protect you at all, depending on angle and target. The ability is still very much there when applying something like Tan Da to ring the opponent's bell which when used with correct timing and position is all that is needed to open the door to a fluid flow of follow up moves which can get harder and nastier with each subsequent stroke.

The gear simply provides a modicum of safety and can be used with care to provide realistic combative feedback under varying levels of contact and stress.

Use of no gear tells me that folks really ain't going there... :p



Further more, the regular impact on your brain training with a bird cage, or helmet if you like, as opposed to a simple crippling punch to the kidneys, is far more damaging in the long term to the participants. In other words, without helmets and gloves I can stop my opponent with one punch. With the proctection, you are both exchanging damaging blows to your brain, and the real VICTOR is the guy who can endure the bashing the longest.

So your advising folks to not use any gear but spar with hard contact to the head/body/legs? There are folks who do this and this results in broken bones, broken faces and other serious injuries on a regular basis. Is this how you train??? Hmmmmmm? Do tell! :D

I agree it is important to train smart with gear or without. Folks should try to minimize heavy and constant trauma to the brain/head. That's what good teachers are there for and why there should be structure in the training and a sensible progression based on the goals of the student and teacher.

[Edmund]

May I also add, as my original point, exchanging blows with a bigger and stronger opponent, your opponent would have all the advantages. More importantly, no wing chun training is taking place.

Sparring with equipment is a method of practicing fighting with a partner.
Not a real fight. So you don't just exchange blows and try beat each other up. It's just protecting you from a strike that could otherwise INJURE YOU.

They aren't truly your opponent. You're giving each other a chance to practice your fighting skills. They can still be hurt, pads or not, so you don't try to kill them. Guess you never trained like that.

Doesn't mean you don't do any light sparring without protective gear either!
Of course you work with gear and without it. Get it?

Do you hit your sparring partners in the kidneys to cripple them without any protective equipment? Yes or No?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Victor, each to their own.

But I seriously think you are denying the continuence factor in sparring, and practising with 'peace of mind', since you are both protected, you are missing out on the mental aspect of training.

With this form of sparring, the emphasis is not on developing the proper wing chun response, but get the most hardest punch in to prevent your opponent from exchanging blows.

Further more, the regular impact on your brain training with a birdcage, or helmet if you like, as opposed to a simple crippling punch to the kidneys, is far more damaging in the long term to the particpants. In other words, without helmets and gloves I can stop my opponent with one punch. With the proctection, you are both exchanging damaging blows to your brain, and the real VICTOR is the guy who can endure the bashing the longest.


***WHAT MAKES YOU THINK that I'm willing to just trade blows when sparring with gear? I still use wing chun principles (and techniques): the goal being to come in an make it so that I can hit him and he can't hit me.

Like I told you - when you're talking full power shots and kicks...even with gear you don't want to trade blows - because the gloves are light and thin and the impact shock waves hurt. (The same with full power kicks.

As I said earlier - short of an actual streetfight - this type of sparring is very much a MIND OVER MATTER thing...you can still get hurt even with gear when it's full speed, full power.

[chisauking]

The intention of sparring with proctection is good, but unfortunately you are missing out on a lot of wing chun.

If the protection is too great, you end up with a totally unrealistic experience, and inducing absolutely no FEAR in the equation.

Too thin a proctection and there would be no differnce to pulled bare-knuckles.

As to whether I've dropped opponents in sparring -- yes, many times. The last time I'd torn the ligiaments in my own ankles from sparring with full force and no proctection with kicks. Did I cry? No, I simply accepted that it's the nature of the beast in a fighting style.

You people carry on with your safety fighting system, and watch the NHB fighting of make belief on TV. Great stuff with pop corns and coke!

[Edmund]

And while you're injured, others who take more safety precautions are doing more training.

[chisauking]

Victor: ***WHAT MAKES YOU THINK that I'm willing to just trade blows when sparring with gear? I still use wing chun principles (and techniques): the goal being to come in an make it so that I can hit him and he can't hit me.

The fact that very few people, including pro boxers, can stopped their opponent dead with one hit when both are wearing helmet and gloves. Unless you are fighting a dummy, your opponent will retailate after you have hit him.

Victor: Like I told you - when you're talking full power shots and kicks...even with gear you don't want to trade blows - because the gloves are light and thin and the impact shock waves hurt. (The same with full power kicks.

Its not a question of wanting to trade blows --- you don't have an option since you have not knock your opponent out or cause sufficient disruption of his balance to prevent him from retailiating, and then you retailiating. Hence, blow for blow.

It is quite clear most haven't even bothered to read my post carefully. I've said proctection is important at the lower levels, but you have to go beyond this stage. When you first learn to ride a bike with stabelisers, don't you not go beyond this stage? When you first learn to swim with water wings, do you not go beyond this stage?

If you don't have the skill and finesse to control yourself after 30-years of wing chun, then maybe some haven't developed the sensitivty yet.

Lastly, I think it's very impoertant to mention that if fighting is not your ultimate reason for learning wing chun, then realistic sparring isn't necessary for you. Chisau alone would embeded the physical skills needed to defend yourself in 'most' times of need. Then again, not all chisau are the same.

http://kontraband.com/show/show.asp?ID=1656&rtn=main-topten

[chisauking]

Edmund sez: And while you're injured, others who take more safety precautions are doing more training.

You are quite right...The question is, training for what? To delude oneself?

[Edmund]

Chisau alone would embeded the physical skills needed to defend yourself in 'most' times of need.

Who's deluded?

[chisauking]

Edmund sez: Who's deluded?


Preempted you: Then again, not all chisau is the same.

[YungChun]

Wow CSK at the tender age of 17 you have already managed to move past these early phases of training with gear that folks are advocating, many who have trained for longer than you've been alive.. Very impressive indeed!

Well by all means let's see some of this full contact, fully realistic fight training with no gear! Since this is a part of your normal training it should be no problem at all to post some clips, or perhaps some are already posted on your school's site? It should be most refreshing to see full contact WCK in action, with attacks to the head, body and legs with genuine WCK techniques performed in such a realistic manner.

Looking forward to seeing how advanced folks train this stuff..! :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Victor: ***WHAT MAKES YOU THINK that I'm willing to just trade blows when sparring with gear? I still use wing chun principles (and techniques): the goal being to come in an make it so that I can hit him and he can't hit me.

"The fact that very few people, including pro boxers, can stop their opponent dead with one hit when both are wearing helmet and gloves. Unless you are fighting a dummy, your opponent will retailate after you have hit him." (csk)


***HE WILL RETALIATE if I don't control his body and limbs (ie.- trapping arms, taking space and balance away from him)...or if I don't position myself with footwork to be at an angle where he can't hit and I can. As I told you - I do use wing chun principles and techniques....AND THE FACT THAT YOU SEEM TO BE MARRIED TO THE ONE PUNCH KNOCKOUT IDEAL...is yet again a tip off that you don't train realistically enough (or often enough) to know that one punch knockouts are not easy to come by - regardless of who you are.

................................


Victor: Like I told you - when you're talking full power shots and kicks...even with gear you don't want to trade blows - because the gloves are light and thin and the impact shock waves hurt. (The same with full power kicks).

"Its not a question of wanting to trade blows --- you don't have an option since you have not knocked your opponent out or cause sufficient disruption of his balance to prevent him from retaliating, and then you retaliate Hence, blow for blow." (csk)


***AND AGAIN I'M GOING TO TELL YOU that my wing chun includes the ability to nullify his attempts to retaliate because I'm not depending on the one punch knockout (or several chain punches)....to win the fight. But rather it's about control over his body and positioning and taking space away.

..............................


"It is quite clear most haven't even bothered to read my post carefully. I've said protection is important at the lower levels, but you have to go beyond this stage. When you first learn to ride a bike with stabelisers, don't you not go beyond this stage? When you first learn to swim with water wings, do you not go beyond this stage?" (csk)


***NO...IT'S QUITE CLEAR that you just don't get the fact that sparring with protection is the only way to avoid serious injuries when sparring all-out full contact...whether you're got 3 years in the game or 30.

..........................


"If you don't have the skill and finesse to control yourself after 30-years of wing chun, then maybe some haven't developed the sensitivty yet." (csk)


***I CONTROL MYSELF JUST FINE...but hitting hard and fast and spontaneously is the only way to stay sharp - especially if you spar frequently with skilled opponents. If I wanted to just spar beginners than sure...I could control them with ease and "finesse" all the time. Big deal. What does that do for me?

..................

"Lastly, I think it's very important to mention that if fighting is not your ultimate reason for learning wing chun, then realistic sparring isn't necessary for you. Chi sau alone would embeded the physical skills needed to defend yourself in 'most' times of need. Then again, not all chi sau are the same." (csk)


***WELL WE FINALLY GET TO THE HEART of the matter, now don't we?! You're signature is chisauking because you actually think that chi sau alone has all the embedded skills necessary to defend yourself in "most" times of need.

LOL.:rolleyes: :cool: :D ;) :)

[chisauking]

Victor sez: ***WELL WE FINALLY GET TO THE HEART of the matter, now don't we?! You're signature is chisauking because you actually think that chi sau alone has all the embedded skills necessary to defend yourself in "most" times of need.

Feel free to take my post out of context. I've said that if your ultimate reason for taking up wing chun is not fighting, and there are many, many people in this category, then chisau is the safest way to train to devlope skills to proctect yourself. If people genuinely understand chisau, they would know the skills devloped would be enough to buy time for the victim to getaway from trouble.

As I've said many, many times, chisau means means many things to many people. It is without doubt the single most misunderstood aspect of the wing chun system. In my lineage, Kan Wah Chit, many students learn not much more than basic chisau for maybe 4 years or more. On a personally basis, it has taken me over 20-years to truely understand the beauty and genuis of chisau, and in all my years of travel in search of wing chun I've probably meet less than 20 practitioners that can truly apply chisau. No doubt there may be more, but I haven't met them.

As for my signature, it is nothing but a bit of fun -- just like ultimatewingchun. I think it's rather petty to focus on one's signiture when there are so much more to converse with in the art of wing chun.

[Edmund]

On a personally basis, it has taken me over 20-years to truely understand the beauty and genuis of chisau, and in all my years of travel in search of wing chun I've probably meet less than 20 practitioners that can truly apply chisau.

Must have been difficult being born in 1988 according to your public profile.

[junmo]

I got pucnhed in the face on saturday night...and i wished I had a BIRDCAGE on!
...tehn again it probably would n't have helped me with that girl I was talking to looking like hannibal :D

[Yung Apprentice]

I find it interesting that with an opponent that can stay on his feet and fight back, Royce resorts to flopping on his back and flailing his legs around in hopes that the opponent will mount him. Not a very good strategy in a streetfight, or MMA event.

[Sekabin]

Here's what's happened to me in the last few months:

1. Look on kfm ... see two people bickering about real fight experience or lack of it, or indeed what a 'real fight' is.

2. Spend time away from kfm

3. Look on kfm again and... find the same two people bickering about real fight experience or lack of it etc.

Guys, this is getting old. No, it's got old already. Nobody expects you to hug each other, but you certainly ain't going to change each other's minds so what's the point?