Why I will never try to choke or submit someone on the street.

[negativecr33p]

Sure. It works. It works nice as ****.

Let me tell you my story. There are pictures of the wounds for those who do not believe me. Jiu jitsu guys I've discussed with this online automaticly tell me I wasn't doing the choke right blah blah blah, but the fact is, I was, and he would have been knocked out.

Okay, so you got me and my boss at the waffle house. We're about 140 lbs each. He fired some chick a few hours ago...she's just been sitting there. In walks 250+ lb biker, threatening him.... I was in between the two, so I put my hands up, open, as though I am telling him I don't want to fight, ask him to calm down....hes about to charge through me, so I side stepped him, and grabbed him, was holding him in a headlock. At this point the office, with a huge steel door which locks automaticly is within easy reach of my boss. I expect him to run in there, MAYBE help me try to restrain him and calm him down. But no, and this is where it gets humorous I guess. He grabs a frying pan. But he was so scared....he was so scared he hit ME with it TWICE. My memory goes blurry, but I do know I wrestled with him for awhile while he continued to try and break free to get to my boss. Eventually, he did. At which point I was in a corner, with he back directly to me, I jumped up, wrap my arms around his neck and sink in a rear naked choke. My boss at this time, did the only half way intelligent thing he may have done in his life and kind of dodged around infront of the guy like a basket ball player playing defense, thus he was unable to slam me....sure an elbow in the gut and the guy would have been out cold in about 4 seconds, but I digress. Well about 5 seconds into the choke, the guys legs are getting weak...my boss suddenly yells "no watch out watch out!" well I didn't know wtf he was talking about...suddenly my arm goes limp. I stumble back into the tiny office, narrowly avoiding a knife towards my torso. I'm now cornered in the office with a guy twice my size holding a knife towards my throat. My boss runs like a little girl. I put my hands up again and bascily plead with the dude not to stab me. At this point I didn't even realize I was stabbed. Well after he's done panting, he takes off. I step out of the office....blood just started squirting from my neck, or what I thought was my neck all over the wall... by the grace of god it ended up in between my shoulder and my clavicle and only severed branches of my sub clavial artery. It was a horrific experience, the amount of blood everywhere while I waited for the ambulance, I don't even want to discuss.


Annnnnyway, I just thought I'd share my story. You always hear while jiu jitsu isn't good in the street. And this is why. Do you think I'll ever attempt to choke someone out again? Maybe once my nightmares involving getting stabbed repeatedly while blood gushes from my neck cease. But it's doubtful even then.

If I had known it was legal to hit the dude, and I wouldn't get fired, I would have side stepped with an elbow, hook, and probobly some serious kicks to the knees if I knew my boss was going to escalate the situation like A MORON. Bringing a frying pan into the situation....

I still plan on training in BJJ, but this will be because I enjoy it. When push comes to shove (litterally) in the street with someone I don't know... I will be hesitant to clinch with him, let alone submit him.

Anyway, I've now got a serious wound, nightmares, sleeplessness, continued thoughts of what happened.... and I can't even go into work picturing all of it. Anyone ever have a similar wound to a shoulder? It's been a few weeks now with almost no improvement to me using it....they tod me it should be much better by now... I'm very worried how long I will be out of training....

[duende]

Harsh...

Glad you made it out alive. Playing with knives is no joke!

I'm not going to argue over grappling techniques... who know's whether you applied the application right or wrong.

The point here to remember as I see it, is that losing your mobility and fully committing to one move... be it a grapple or a strike to the head is dangerous place to put yourself in. There are muscleheads out there who can take a strike to the head with a frying pan or worse.... and still not be phased!

You got to keep your saftey belt on. And sometimes that safety belt means the having the ability to run.

again.... glad you survived.

[stricker]

hey negative,

thats a really heavy story, really your lucky to be alive. you should seriously watch out for post traumatic stress if your having nightmares and insomnia and stuff. looking after that may be just or even more important than getting a good physio to look at your shoulder. i dont know what the deal is where you live but in the uk you can get some councilling off victim support and the nhs to help with that stuff.

the details all sound like a bit of a nightmare, and you dealt with it really well. your boss is either a fool or just freaked out big time when it all hit the fan. still train bjj dude remember if you hit the deck in a fight you need transitions, positional escapes etc to get back up! I think the choke was a sensible option (doesnt matter if its wing chun or bjj or whatever) and you got unlucky with the knife. but then every situation is different, where you live is different to where i live, but still you cant just chain punch the **** out of everyone who gets a bit lively with you.

take care and get well.

[_William_]

Thats awful. Maybe you could talk to a psychologist to help you with the nightmares, or just talk with close friends and family about it. I hope you get well soon!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Just a read a real story on some other forum - a fight in a bar somewhere...and a Machado BJJ guy jumps a big guy's back....sinks the hooks in...and proceeds with a rear naked choke.

The other guy managed to go up a few steps on a flight of stairs and then jumped backwards - landing on top of the Machado guy who hit the floor behind and beneath him so hard that he was knocked out cold!!!

Fortunately he came to as the ambulance was pulling up and didn't suffer any permanent damage....but his rear naked choke didn't work in this instance...and he paid for it with near disastrous consequences.

Sounds like you were in a similar situation.

It's about control in a fight - not about a specific position or technique...and sometimes even a move like a choke (when not accompanied with sufficient control over the rest of the guy's body)...will prove useless or perhaps even disastrous.

Don't blame the style...like any other style - it has it's limitations...and so an overall streetview of fighting ultimately trumps any specific rules and regs of any particular fighting system.

As for the psychological damage - see a psychotherapist as soon as you can - this might help alleviate any fears and anxieties that are unnecessary and irrational - and perhaps help you get past those that are rational - but nonetheless now its time to move on to future solutions.

Good luck.

[Fajing]

Sure. It works. It works nice as ****.

Let me tell you my story. There are pictures of the wounds for those who do not believe me. Jiu jitsu guys I've discussed with this online automaticly tell me I wasn't doing the choke right blah blah blah, but the fact is, I was, and he would have been knocked out.

Okay, so you got me and my boss at the waffle house. We're about 140 lbs each. He fired some chick a few hours ago...she's just been sitting there. In walks 250+ lb biker, threatening him.... I was in between the two, so I put my hands up, open, as though I am telling him I don't want to fight, ask him to calm down....hes about to charge through me, so I side stepped him, and grabbed him, was holding him in a headlock. At this point the office, with a huge steel door which locks automaticly is within easy reach of my boss. I expect him to run in there, MAYBE help me try to restrain him and calm him down. But no, and this is where it gets humorous I guess. He grabs a frying pan. But he was so scared....he was so scared he hit ME with it TWICE. My memory goes blurry, but I do know I wrestled with him for awhile while he continued to try and break free to get to my boss. Eventually, he did. At which point I was in a corner, with he back directly to me, I jumped up, wrap my arms around his neck and sink in a rear naked choke. My boss at this time, did the only half way intelligent thing he may have done in his life and kind of dodged around infront of the guy like a basket ball player playing defense, thus he was unable to slam me....sure an elbow in the gut and the guy would have been out cold in about 4 seconds, but I digress. Well about 5 seconds into the choke, the guys legs are getting weak...my boss suddenly yells "no watch out watch out!" well I didn't know wtf he was talking about...suddenly my arm goes limp. I stumble back into the tiny office, narrowly avoiding a knife towards my torso. I'm now cornered in the office with a guy twice my size holding a knife towards my throat. My boss runs like a little girl. I put my hands up again and bascily plead with the dude not to stab me. At this point I didn't even realize I was stabbed. Well after he's done panting, he takes off. I step out of the office....blood just started squirting from my neck, or what I thought was my neck all over the wall... by the grace of god it ended up in between my shoulder and my clavicle and only severed branches of my sub clavial artery. It was a horrific experience, the amount of blood everywhere while I waited for the ambulance, I don't even want to discuss.


Annnnnyway, I just thought I'd share my story. You always hear while jiu jitsu isn't good in the street. And this is why. Do you think I'll ever attempt to choke someone out again? Maybe once my nightmares involving getting stabbed repeatedly while blood gushes from my neck cease. But it's doubtful even then.

If I had known it was legal to hit the dude, and I wouldn't get fired, I would have side stepped with an elbow, hook, and probobly some serious kicks to the knees if I knew my boss was going to escalate the situation like A MORON. Bringing a frying pan into the situation....

I still plan on training in BJJ, but this will be because I enjoy it. When push comes to shove (litterally) in the street with someone I don't know... I will be hesitant to clinch with him, let alone submit him.

Anyway, I've now got a serious wound, nightmares, sleeplessness, continued thoughts of what happened.... and I can't even go into work picturing all of it. Anyone ever have a similar wound to a shoulder? It's been a few weeks now with almost no improvement to me using it....they tod me it should be much better by now... I'm very worried how long I will be out of training....

Wow, I am sorry to hear that, friend. There are always idiots out there who start sh*t. :mad: I am someone who trains with a knife and have witnessed something similar to what you experienced. Knives truly are no joke, and skilled practitioners will have their blade deployed in 1 or 2 seconds, ready to tangle. It is messy. A stressful experience I encountered while closing up at a Chinese restaurant one night a few years back involved guns, which also puts a serious shock in you. As my co-worker and I were closing up, 3 young patrons strolled in(1 guy, 2 girls) and asked if we were closed yet. I was stepping toward the back to mop, then I heard the screaming. All three patrons were holding guns to my co-workers head, demanding the cash from the til. I slowly edged forward with my hands high. My co-worker calmly gave them all the cash at hand, and they left. My heart almost exploded as they glanced around back and forth at us. Remaining calm and complying I'm sure saved our lives, but you never know what might happen. I thought that he definitely caught the more stressful end since the guns were all on him. :eek: The street definitely poses some shocking realities when it comes to combat and survival. Empty hand techniques cannot vie with guns and knives. While I carry a folder and fixed blade everywhere, I certainly refrain from using them. AVOID ALL CONFRONTATIONS IF POSSIBLE! You never know what someone is bringing to the table. I am wondering what kind of charges that idiot is facing for stabbing you. :mad: Was it just cause? He attacked you guys! He should go to jail and not pass GO! I hope you are doing alright man. PEACE!

[Fajing]

Don't blame the style...like any other style - it has it's limitations...and so an overall streetview of fighting ultimately trumps any specific rules and regs of any particular fighting system.

Good comment Victor. Different things certainly work in different situations. It's hard to predict. :confused:

[Liddel]

Crazy story negitive - remember though, you did survive and it could have been worse for you and other people present, you just dont know......

BJJ or JJ guys can talk about your technique all day long, but even if it was perfect, it is possible for certain individuals to show no affects, WILL is the deciding factor not Technique IME !

I could tell you about a rear naked choke on a suspect after he had been pepper sprayed , one cop on his back and two hitting his legs with asp battons and he still wouldnt go down....

Best of luck with your recovery and a word of advice, dont let it knock your love of the arts, ive been there in a much lesser sence, use it to make you stronger.....

Thanks for sharing your traumatic experience.

[tansaujosh]

to be quite honest i dunt understand y some people put so much effort into defending against knives, its way to risky, they should be practicing how to get out of the situation or jus plain old running!:D

[negativecr33p]

Thanks for the postive feedback everyone. There are definitely good things that will come out of this, it's just another reminder that there is a reason why I am here. It's the will of god who put that knife in my shoulder, and not my neck. The guy told the cop he thought he stabbed my neck...

Even a half an inch to the right or left and I would have bleed out through my subclavial artery...

It's just dealing with this, and the desire to put it behind me. My hospital bills are already over $30,000, not including the physical therapy and likely counseling I will have to go through. The company I work for, waffle house, hasn't yet stepped up and paid anything... let alone my workmans comp. If it weren't for family I'd likely be out on the street.

I can't go to work, I can't work out or train, can't play guitar, even video games hurt my shoulder after about 20 minutes. And this is three weeks after the fact. I didn't graduate highschool, so waffle house was my stepping stone, to go to school and get money saved to open a business one day... Now I don't know that I'd be able to go back, or when. Since I've already had to get an attorney involved, due to the medical bills, and denying my workman's comp claim, I doubt I have much a future there now anyway...

I think that's perhaps why it's so hard to get this off of my mind.... my girlfriend who had been living in a differant state for the past 2 years, whom I had seen once in the past year got here at 6 am the morning I got stabbed. And obviously, sitting around doing nothing, and all of this stress, I'm not myself. It's really effecting my relationship as well.

Coupled with the fact that the boss whom I saved from a sever ass beating, at the least, was one of the main ones trying to deny my comp claim....and even saying he had the situation under control and he wished I hadn't stepped in behind my back..... I'm sorry, his fryingpankwondo didn't knock me out. Not to mention the fact that THE GUY WAS IN A HEADLOCK when he HIT ME IN THE HEAD TWICE. This guy was in the navy for years, took 8 years of taekwondo, he never heard of de escalating a confrontation????????? If you pull a weapon, especially on an enraged individual you know is crazy..... You better be ****ed sure it's gonna do the deed. As it is he is swearing in court it was self defense due the frying pan.....

Oh yes, the only reason my boss stopped swinging it, AT MY ****ING HEAD. Was because the handle broke. I just can't wait till I can begin training again in some aspect, if it's a rehabalitive one. That will definitely help get my mind off of it. And hopefully return to work in some aspect.

Right now I've been getting into growing bonsai trees, meditating and reading, trying to fill the endless droning hours. I've also decided I want to find some type of church or something to go to, though I'm not sure where to turn as my religous beliefs are kind of all over the place and there's just so much with the christian denomonations I just don't agree with. Also I'm thinking about trying to find somewhere to volunteer a few hours a week, even if its just answering phones or working a desk at an animal shelter, or whatever...

Sorry for the long, slightly rambling posts, it's just good to get things off your chest sometimes in an annonymous (sp?) atmosphere, especially with fellow warriors.

[negativecr33p]

to be quite honest i dunt understand y some people put so much effort into defending against knives, its way to risky, they should be practicing how to get out of the situation or jus plain old running!:D


Without a doubt, running is the best option. Hell, I could fight, and have many many times before I ever stepped into a dojo. I'll escape a confrontation with anyone if I can. Though there are times when standing up for yourself is a neccessity...

But if you're cornered and someones tryin to poke you, you atleast have a chance to defend if you know how to fight with a knife....

Update: Just last night at the waffle house at 4 am 6 black dudes started a fight with 3 mexican dudes over absolutely nothing. A mexican head litterally getting stomped on, one flying over the high bar later, there's blood all over the waffle house again. Litterally all over. Oh, and they made the employees clean up all this blood both times? Is that even legal? I sure as **** wouldn't do it, or even have my employees do it. Waffle house is a big enough corporation they could have someone dispose of the bioharderous waste properly....

Coupled with the story my old unit manager just told me the other day, she was transferred here because a group of employees met her old manager out back and beat the **** out of her so bad she almost died...and the all the nurses and police officers who have told me waffle house horror stories, many former and current police officers have told me that they are just downright dangerous places many times... I don't think I will ever be able to return to work there. I value my physical well being to much.

[Fajing]

to be quite honest i dunt understand y some people put so much effort into defending against knives, its way to risky, they should be practicing how to get out of the situation or jus plain old running!:D

This is true, but I think in negativecr33p encounter, this wasn't an ideal option at the time. I don't think he knew the guy was armed, nor was he able to flee so easily at the time. :( Sure, we all want to flee from knives and guns if we know it's coming, but he was blindsided from my interpretation. Just a crappy situation.

[negativecr33p]

This is true, but I think in negativecr33p encounter, this wasn't an ideal option at the time. I don't think he knew the guy was armed, nor was he able to flee so easily at the time. :( Sure, we all want to flee from knives and guns if we know it's coming, but he was blindsided from my interpretation. Just a crappy situation.


Basicly ya, he reached into his pocket and pulled it out, this guy was huge so I wasn't seeing it.... I know I applied the choke correctly however. I felt the muscles in his neck flex, and then his neck start to collapse I guess would be the word. I never applied it full force to anyone like that, but it was actually kind of sickening the way his neck went in like that. He was also hunched over gasping for breath when he held the knife to me, after he stabbed me.

My boss tried to warn me about the knife, problem is he said everything under the sun except "KNIFE!!".

[Merryprankster]

negative,

I am sorry. This sounds like it was totally ****ed up. Congrats on coming out alive!

On a totally non-******* note, it does, in fact, sound like you may have applied it "wrong."

The Rear-naked choke is a blood choke in pure form. They can continue breathing more or less unimpeded, and the restriction on the jugular veins causes blood pressure inside the head to rise. This cuts oxygen off to the brain VERY quickly, as the heart can't pump oxygenated blood through the carotids because of back pressure. The fact that his neck collapsed like that suggests to me that you were probably applying a windpipe choke. Not wrong (hence my use of the quotations above), but much slower acting. I have put people out with both (they wouldn't tap), and there is definitely a difference in time.

This does NOT mean that I'm saying "Hey you *******, you should have done it better," or second guessing your judgment - or your empirical take away from this in any way. I am also not saying that he wouldn't have had time to stab you if you'd done it differently - for all I know - you did apply it correctly, and this guy was just tough to take out. You acted, which is more than most people can say.

By way of fallout, you may wish to consult/find a lawyer. I don't know what this fellow's background is like or anything, but there is a possibility that his defense lawyer may try to play up the idea that you had placed him in a "lethal choke hold," and therefore our 250 lbs friend was in a "fight for his life," and used a "non-lethal technique," (ie, stabbing your arm) to get out. While this will probably have few criminal implications for you, if the defense is successful, he may have stronger grounds for a civil suit. This won't absolve him of the original assault, but he might get off on using the knife on you, and if that happens, he might try and take you to court for civil damages.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in support of this guy, I'm just thinking about "what might happen." Sometimes, wierd things go on in the legal system, if one party is unprepared for the fallout.

[anerlich]

I agree with MP ... get a lawyer ... sounds like you might have to take on both your boss and the guy who stabbed you, with those odds you need all the help you can get.

I think you did your best in a repidly changing situation, trying to help out your boss, who isn't exactly acting like he deserved it ... it sounds tempting to say you should have just run and let him get the beating he might well have deserved. Or let him get into his stell doored office, run away and dial 911 on your cell phone. but it's easy for us armchair quarterbacks to give all the advice in the world. We weren't there.

I wouldn't even THINK about going back to work for this guy. He sounds like a worthless a$$hole.

Good luck, hope you get well soon and can put all this crap behind you.


to be quite honest i dunt understand y some people put so much effort into defending against knives, its way to risky, they should be practicing how to get out of the situation or jus plain old running! :D

He didn't know about the knife, it's difficult to know what do do or how to react in a situation like that. BTW, your smiley is in extremely poor taste given the seriousness of the situation.

[negativecr33p]

negative,

I am sorry. This sounds like it was totally ****ed up. Congrats on coming out alive!

On a totally non-******* note, it does, in fact, sound like you may have applied it "wrong."

The Rear-naked choke is a blood choke in pure form. They can continue breathing more or less unimpeded, and the restriction on the jugular veins causes blood pressure inside the head to rise. This cuts oxygen off to the brain VERY quickly, as the heart can't pump oxygenated blood through the carotids because of back pressure. The fact that his neck collapsed like that suggests to me that you were probably applying a windpipe choke. Not wrong (hence my use of the quotations above), but much slower acting. I have put people out with both (they wouldn't tap), and there is definitely a difference in time.

This does NOT mean that I'm saying "Hey you *******, you should have done it better," or second guessing your judgment - or your empirical take away from this in any way. I am also not saying that he wouldn't have had time to stab you if you'd done it differently - for all I know - you did apply it correctly, and this guy was just tough to take out. You acted, which is more than most people can say.

By way of fallout, you may wish to consult/find a lawyer. I don't know what this fellow's background is like or anything, but there is a possibility that his defense lawyer may try to play up the idea that you had placed him in a "lethal choke hold," and therefore our 250 lbs friend was in a "fight for his life," and used a "non-lethal technique," (ie, stabbing your arm) to get out. While this will probably have few criminal implications for you, if the defense is successful, he may have stronger grounds for a civil suit. This won't absolve him of the original assault, but he might get off on using the knife on you, and if that happens, he might try and take you to court for civil damages.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in support of this guy, I'm just thinking about "what might happen." Sometimes, wierd things go on in the legal system, if one party is unprepared for the fallout.]

I've got a workmans comp lawyer.

I testified in this guys probable cause hearing, his lawyer was shouting by the end of it about it being self defense. The entire time he was cross examining me, I saw the DA chuckling at his questions, that lead up to his defense. My dad saw the judge doing the same. Afterwards, I talked to the DA. Basicly, my boss is my size. I'm a small dude, 5' 9 ? or so, 141 lbs when they weighed me at the doctors. According the DA this guy has an "extensive" history in violent assaults. Also, he walked in his full biker regalia, big ass black boots, biker jacket, thick ass wallet chain and everything. I told them I knew I was choking him. Basicly, it doesn't look good for him. Like the DA said to the judge right before he set the next court date and turned down his self defense plea. "You don't bring a knife to a frying pan fight"

[Merryprankster]

Awesome dude, I'm glad to hear that!

People shouldn't get screwed for doing the right thing.

[ghostofwingchun]

There are many good points I am thinking that were raised. One thing that occurs to me is that understanding context . . . or cinrcumstance . . . of when to use what technique is important. As Mr Parlati mentioned rear choke on stair way is not good idea . . . then too we often do not have choice . . . it may be best option available to us. Some technique seem more dangerous than they are . . . like choke or finger jab to eyes . . . and may look worse to authorities if they become involved . . . and they may will escalate fight too. I am thinking that fighting is like ethics in that it is more often situational . . . tactics and technique must adapt to these situations rather than thinking one solution or tactic is best for any situation . . . so choking on street may be good in certain circumstances . . . bad in others . . . this comes from judgement . . . which comes from experience. At least these are my randon thoughts at the moment.

Thanks,

Ghost

[Knifefighter]

You always hear while jiu jitsu isn't good in the street. And this is why.
One reason you hear that BJJ "isn't good in the street" is because untrained noobs like you try to apply it without ever doing any training in it.

This was actually the perfect time to apply BJJ. You had only a single guy who wasn't even paying attention to you, but was focused on your boss. If you had a year or so of BJJ, you could have easily taken the guy down and controlled him so he would never have had a chance to draw his blade.

[Jason Martell]

Dude I'm a TKD practioner, and I can say this about TKD. It don't do ****, when your in the back seat of a small car going up against a guy twice your size.

[Jason Martell]

One reason you hear that BJJ "isn't good in the street" is because untrained noobs like you try to apply it without ever doing any training in it.

This was actually the perfect time to apply BJJ. You had only a single guy who wasn't even paying attention to you, but was focused on your boss. If you had a year or so of BJJ, you could have easily taken the guy down and controlled him so he would never have had a chance to draw his blade.


I don't know any wrestling or grappling styles, but from what I've seen in the UFC, if I had a knife anywhere on me, even if I was in some kind of hold, I would still be able to pull it out and stab the person somewhere. It's no doubt the best style for a one on one unarmed fight, but it's got to be one of the riskiest when going up against multiple fighters or somebody with a sharp weapon.

[Fajing]

One reason you hear that BJJ "isn't good in the street" is because untrained noobs like you try to apply it without ever doing any training in it.

This was actually the perfect time to apply BJJ. You had only a single guy who wasn't even paying attention to you, but was focused on your boss. If you had a year or so of BJJ, you could have easily taken the guy down and controlled him so he would never have had a chance to draw his blade.

I'm glad you brought this up. :D Having a friend who has trained in bjj for several years and who is a ripped MO FO, 6' 205lbs, we did a little demo with a training folder. So you have two guys, one a regular bjj practitioner, and the other a knife nut with no real training other than his own. They squared off, the bjj guy lunged in and took the knife guy straight to the floor (very impressive), however, the knife guy had his folder deployed rather quickly once he hit the floor. While the bjj guy could have clearly wooped him in an empty hand match, the knife guy made a nice slash across the bjj guys neck once on the floor. This would seriously change things. This was just a senario/practice routine we tried out. I tried a go with the knife guy as well using Wing Chun, but would have been slashed up bad. :o It's too hard to keep track of that little blade once it's deployed. NOTHING like in the movies. I understand that this is just one senario, but it's really naive to assume you can prevent the knife from popping up on you. It's better not to try, UNLESS you have to. This is just my personal experience. I thought it would be more realistic to try it with a buddy who is a knife carrier, but with no formal training. He practices deployment speed, gripping and such, but has not been trained in Sayoc Kali or any others. I'm sure our opinions and experiences will vary, but IMO it's really not safe to say you can control someone from deploying a blade. People will always surprise you. ;) Just my opinion. :)

[Edmund]

This was actually the perfect time to apply BJJ. You had only a single guy who wasn't even paying attention to you, but was focused on your boss. If you had a year or so of BJJ, you could have easily taken the guy down and controlled him so he would never have had a chance to draw his blade.

Screw that. There's always a chance he could draw a blade.
Plus negativecreep didn't know he was armed. I assume it was concealed. Being hit with a frying pan doesn't help either.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Originally Posted by Knifefighter
This was actually the perfect time to apply BJJ. You had only a single guy who wasn't even paying attention to you, but was focused on your boss. If you had a year or so of BJJ, you could have easily taken the guy down and controlled him so he would never have had a chance to draw his blade."



Screw that. There's always a chance he could draw a blade.
Plus negativecreep didn't know he was armed. I assume it was concealed. Being hit with a frying pan doesn't help either.


***ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, Edmund....How about 10 years of BJJ (instead of one)....would you really think that even then the chances are any better than 50/50 if the guy has a knife in his pocket that he pulls out with his two free arms while you go for a rear naked choke or a takedown? (And he's a biker dude twice the size as negative).

I seriously doubt it.

[Knifefighter]

I don't know any wrestling or grappling styles, but from what I've seen in the UFC, if I had a knife anywhere on me, even if I was in some kind of hold, I would still be able to pull it out and stab the person somewhere.

Screw that. There's always a chance he could draw a blade.
Plus negativecreep didn't know he was armed. I assume it was concealed.

How about 10 years of BJJ (instead of one)....would you really think that even then the chances are any better than 50/50 if the guy has a knife in his pocket that he pulls out with his two free arms while you go for a rear naked choke or a takedown?

Oh right...
how silly of me to think that a bunch of guys with no BJJ training and whose only bladed weapon training is dancing around twirling a couple of butterfly swords would understand how you can take someone down who is not paying any attention to you and keep him from deploying his blade
.... nevermind

[gabe]

Oh right...
how silly of me to think that a bunch of guys with no BJJ training and whose only bladed weapon training is dancing around twirling a couple of butterfly swords would understand how you can take someone down who is not paying any attention to you and keep him from deploying his blade
.... nevermind


wow, i never thought you would make such a theoretical fantasy world remark. you really have lost touch with reality.

I expected better of you...

[godzillakungfu]

Really strange argument. "I do TKD and I could've pulled out a knife in that situation."

So, I do kung fu and I could pull a knife out against TKD or any style what is the point?

Properly applied a RNC will knock someone out quick. Key thing is proper.

Oh yeah, um the RNC existed way before Jiu-jitsu was this popular. Why not blame Kung-Fu, or the style you practice?

[gabe]

anybody facing someone with a knife is lucky to make it out alive. don't care how much you train or what the circumstances are.

kf, ever fight someone with a knife...on the street?:p

[gabe]

[QUOTE=godzillakungfu]

Properly applied a RNC will knock someone out quick. Key thing is proper.

QUOTE]

Key thing is resistance. Add a bit of testosterone. A bit of mental illness. A thick neck. A thick collar.

Your lucky if you pull off anything "proper" in a real fight. Anything done "proper" works, right?:cool:

[godzillakungfu]

Key thing is resistance. Add a bit of testosterone. A bit of mental illness. A thick neck. A thick collar.

Your lucky if you pull off anything "proper" in a real fight. Anything done "proper" works, right?:cool:

That is why the word proper is there, if you are strugling and do it wrong it won't work. Especially, if you are a TSD/WC trained fighter using a JJ technique (going by N.C. training profile) you have never practiced.

I know every fight consists of a testosterone filled, mentally ill, fighter.

[Tom Kagan]

What gives you the idea that attempting to strike an armed, Bad@ss biker who has 110 pounds on you would have changed the outcome?

[gabe]

[
:if you are strugling and do it wrong it won't work.
really?:eek:





"I know every fight consists of a testosterone filled, mentally ill, fighter."

That is a close approximation to what this actual fight described here was. Does it not fit your reality? Not compliant enough for you? :p

[godzillakungfu]

Oh, I see, we are going for descriptions.

Let's see hmmm......JJ doesn't work. Oh wait I've never trained JJ. I heard about an RNC I tried it and got stabbed JJ doesn't work.

Now, you are implying striking would've worked against the same person. Don't think so, he fought off two people (one a trained striker) grappling doesn't even figure into the equation.:confused:

[gabe]

Oh, I see, we are going for descriptions.

Let's see hmmm......JJ doesn't work. Oh wait I've never trained JJ. I heard about an RNC I tried it and got stabbed JJ doesn't work.

Now, you are implying striking would've worked against the same person. Don't think so, he fought off two people (one a trained striker) grappling doesn't even figure into the equation.:confused:


what...descriptions?

who...said....an ...RNC...doesn't...work.

who.....said...JJ...doesn't.....work.

who...said...striking....would...have .........worked.


read it real slow. try to understand.

[godzillakungfu]

The original poster. Slow enough for ya.

[jmdrake]

One reason you hear that BJJ "isn't good in the street" is because untrained noobs like you try to apply it without ever doing any training in it.

This was actually the perfect time to apply BJJ. You had only a single guy who wasn't even paying attention to you, but was focused on your boss. If you had a year or so of BJJ, you could have easily taken the guy down and controlled him so he would never have had a chance to draw his blade.


And later:


Oh right...
how silly of me to think that a bunch of guys with no BJJ training and whose only bladed weapon training is dancing around twirling a couple of butterfly swords would understand how you can take someone down who is not paying any attention to you and keep him from deploying his blade
.... nevermind

Well, speaking as someone who HAS had BJJ training (over a year now. going for my blue belt) I can't say I would have done anything differently. The thug had his back to him. First thing that goes through my mind when I'm rolling BJJ and I see someone's back is "go for the RNC". Also out of ALL of those training sessions we only did "knife defense" once or maybe twice. The knife defense was based entirely on "Assailant has knife out where you can see it." Since the school is mostly "sport" oriented this isn't such a big deal. In the ring if I RNC someone he'll likely tap (or choke) eventually even if I don't get it "pefect" in the first few seconds.

Still, I'm curious as the the perfect "takedown/control" that you think would have prevented the possibility of getting stabbed. Remember the parameters here. You don't know where Mr. Thug has the knife stashed. Mr. Thugg outweighs you by over 100 pounds. So please take us through your "knife proof" takedown - control - submission oh wise one. ;)

Regards,

John M. Drake

[jmdrake]

What gives you the idea that attempting to strike an armed, Bad@ss biker who has 110 pounds on you would have changed the outcome?

Hey Tom. How have you been?

Anyway, while this wasn't directed at me, I'll answer it anyway. (You know me. Gotta throw in my 2 pence. ;) ) With striking you usually have the "Carl Lewis defense" (running) as an option. Anyway, it sounds like a crap shoot. Because "negative" was locked in the choke, he couldn't see the knife coming. But then the choke did almost work and it seems unlikely (based on the size difference) he would have achieved a knockout with strikes. Of course in "striking" mode the biker might not have felt the need to pull out a knife. After all he didn't when the boss was wielding the frying pan. (But maybe the biker was smart enough to realize that "negative" was more in danger from the moron boss than he was.) So...who knows?

Regards,

John M. Drake

[gabe]

The original poster. Slow enough for ya.


obviously not slow enough for you. kindly point out where I've said 1)JJ doesn't work. 2) an RNC is useless and 3) where striking would have prevailed.



in addition, name a technique that if done properly, wouldn't work.:o

btw, i don't recall giving my view on JJ on this thread, but feel free to look up what i've said about BJJ on other trheads.

hopefully you will reply to me rather than this strawman tma-er you are inventing.

[gabe]

Bottom line is this guy was in a real life situation and people here are criticizing him with theoretical woulda, coulda, shoulda's- and presenting these as fact. I guess you can assume that everything will work "properly" in a real fight? Well maybe he did put a "proper" RNC, and it just so happens that there are plenty of factors that made it irrelevant. Funny how a few of you act as if you have all the answers for all these x-factors. I guess you would have detected the hidden knife. You would have blocked it. You would have this, would have that....

[Tom Kagan]

So...who knows?

I agree. However, negativecr33p is sure he would never again try this again and is sure he could "have side stepped with an elbow, hook, and probobly some serious kicks to the knees". Considering that he managed to allow himself to be trapped in the office, I don't think running even crossed his mind. Hence, my question.

I can't help but be amused at the Wile E. Coyote frying pan attack, regardless.

The other forum thread negativecr33p made on this subject:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=31428

John, While I've been staring at your UserID for some time now, it didn't dawn on me that you were the same you until you addressed me. I'll PM you.

[couch]

I think that you honestly did the best you could do and the fact that you had some MA knowledge under your belt (be it whatever) was the best thing for you in that situation. One-on-One and you tried to choke him out. Good on you.

Don't be worried about this art vs that art of some other idea that you feel you should have adopted, because I know that if I'm with you and the sh!t hits the fan - I can count on you.

Your morals and MA skill are just fine in my books.

I wish you all the best and a speedy recovery.

Sincerely,
Kenton Sefcik

[yenhoi]

Three initial problems:

Not taking the guy down to the ground before attempting the choke (or any type of submission or destruction.) This is even more important considering you and your boss outnumbered him.

Not expecting a weapon to be involved or to become involved. 'Specially after your boss escalated with the frying pan, and you continued with the choke attempt. These factors combined with you guys outnumbering him, would make almost any person involved in a fight, not to mention a biker, to use a weapon of his own. he had a chain visible, and looked gnarled. The knife was something that SHOULD have been expected.

Third was not taking advantage of the fact that the guy was after someone else. He didn’t decide to deal with you until you started to actually threaten him (choke attempt) - you could have been the guy with a frying pan after he got to your boss.

All mistakes of inexperience. Now you have learned the errors of your ways and assumptions, next time, like you already said - you wont be so quick to jump on someone’s back and just go for the choke.

Since everyone here seems to be an expert in grappling and knife fighting, then we ALL already know how easy it is to go for a choke while controlling or defending your opponents ENTIRE body. We also ALL already know that you don’t apply very many techniques at all while hanging onto a larger opponents back – ‘specially a veteran brawler like a gigantic biker guy with black boots and leather jacket and wallet chain. Where are all the WCK guys telling you that you should have hit him?

You went for a choke on the street from someone’s back without taking them down or hitting them, without any semblance of control. You were asking to get beat down.

:eek:

[yenhoi]

MA knowledge is what got you stabbed. If you didnt think you could have taken out this large biker guy with a choke or something, you probably would have done something smarter.

:eek:

[Liddel]

Wow this thread has taken an interesting turn..... some fairly inpolite things said given Negitive's REALITY !

Im not saying those people are WRONG nor am i saying they are right....

In my experience and my friends experience ( Which i also learn from ) the possibilities are endless and some things that in theory work for you 9 times out of ten may not work for you on some occasions....

This is why we train to learn more than one attack/defence is it not ?

Of course the RNC choke works, but who knows if this guy didnt have coke or meth running through his veins which would/could have negated the attempted RNC.....

Ive heard of the RNC failling because a suspect had sharp long fingernails that dug into an officers arm cutting quite deep..... he had to change an adapt while ****ing blood.

Heinsight is 20/20. Fighting is not absolute !

[Edmund]

Where are all the WCK guys telling you that you should have hit him?


They live far away on a place called Earth where you don't advise someone post-event to take on a big guy who turns out to be concealing a knife somewhere.

I don't know what fantasy scenario you kali guys are thinking where it's a great idea.

[yenhoi]

I think we can all agree, since we are all experts, that taking on a big ugly gnarled biker guy is a BAD idea in the first place.

A kali guy would have let the biker guy beat up the boss man. He would also think that all real fights involve weapons.

:rolleyes:

[planetwc]

How many times prior to the fight in question did the original poster train to use the Rear naked choke?

Had you ever put it on someone in a standing position until they tapped or went out?

If not, this was probably a low percentage move for you just as it would be for any of us untrained in how to use it, and experienced in doing so.

As I remember anecdotal evidence from BJJ instructors was that the RNC should put someone out in well under 30 seconds perhaps half that time--IF APPLIED properly.

That was Knifefighters whole point.

If you are properly trained in it's use, then this is a different story. I'm just happy to hear that you survived the knife attack.

[anerlich]

I think that you honestly did the best you could do and the fact that you had some MA knowledge under your belt (be it whatever) was the best thing for you in that situation. One-on-One and you tried to choke him out. Good on you.

Don't be worried about this art vs that art of some other idea that you feel you should have adopted, because I know that if I'm with you and the sh!t hits the fan - I can count on you.

Your morals and MA skill are just fine in my books.

I wish you all the best and a speedy recovery.


May I echo Kenton's fine sentiments.

[kj]

As I remember anecdotal evidence from BJJ instructors was that the RNC should put someone out in well under 30 seconds perhaps half that time--IF APPLIED properly.

Thirty seconds is a long time in fight or violent encounter; 15, 10 or even 5 seconds can be a long time, no less when the other person is significantly large, strong, intent, and conveniently armed with a blade.

This isn't a comment pro or con anything. Just an observation.

Regards,
- kj

[Fajing]

Thirty seconds is a long time in fight or violent encounter; 15, 10 or even 5 seconds can be a long time, no less when the other person is significantly large, strong, intent, and conveniently armed with a blade.

This isn't a comment pro or con anything. Just an observation.

Regards,
- kj

And a good observation. :D

[Knifefighter]

kf, ever fight someone with a knife...on the street?:p

Once on the street, once in my house.

[negativecr33p]

I was choking him for way less than 30 seconds. Maybe 5. Maybe. When I got stabbed.

I didn't take him down first cause big dude would have fallen on boss and his head would have gone into the TV, if I grabbed his legs from behind (altho at this point I shouldn't have cared about the safety of my bosses head). Also, I kept on the choke as long as I did because we were basicly in a corner, he couldn't slam me. My boss looked like a basketball player playing defense, keeping him in the corner. (should have been pounding on his stomach with some appendage, a knee or elbow prefferably).

Also, up until after the fight, I didn't really realize that my boss had hit me. I thought it had to have been him, and I had been dragged into the fight...

Anyway, my only point was, regardless of wether I was choking him "correctly" I was choking him more than enough that had I even let go in a few more seconds I'd have gotten atleast a few serious punches off on him before he even started to get his senses back. But yanno, as has been said, he stabbed me.

The choke would have worked, may have won me a fight I prolly wouldn't have won otherwise. But I got stabbed. Never said anything about chokes or BJJ not working. I just won't be choking someone out anymore, that I don't know completely like that especially, and may just stab me.

[Mr Punch]

Three initial problems:...
You went for a choke on the street from someone’s back without taking them down or hitting them, without any semblance of control. You were asking to get beat down.

:eek:Great post from Yenhoi.

LOL at Knifefighter being a hardass! We're not all bb GJJ and knifefighting experts with 20-whatever years' experience who would just never do the wrong thing at all under pressure in a street situation ever!

I've been kicked unconscious in the street before, I've disarmed a guy trying to stick a broken glass in somebody else's face, and I've run away from a guy with a knife. Who knows how the hell it'd turn out next time!

Good luck to you Negative Creep, hope you don't have to go through that again.

[gabe]

Once on the street, once in my house.


Holy cow! Two times! Now you're an expert! (did they outweigh you 110 pounds? badass biker? did you know they had a knife? ) Your response shows how naive you are. Got the whole world figured out. Reality is really simple, you know? No x-factors.:p


30 secs, planetwc? talk to KJ.

Hindsight's a beautiful thing.

I've a feeling most of the critics would have gotten themselves killed.

[Asia]

I think we can all agree, since we are all experts, that taking on a big ugly gnarled biker guy is a BAD idea in the first place.

Not really. It can be quite fun. Well at least for me. :D But I'm a sick lil monkey.

Anyways.

I like how negative went crying to another board when told that he wasn't doing something properly.

An RNC will put a guy out in less than 10 sec. If he struggles it will be quicker. The technique works great. I used it even before I did BJJ, given that I learned it in Judo I done this personally both in training (some pple just don't know when to tap) and in real fights.

As for not choking anyone out anymore, I say you shouldn't do ANYTHING in a fight you don't know how to do or practiced in an effective manner. I think thats the critical point of it all. If I said, "I tried Beng quan in a fight and got my ass beat. Therefore Xing Yi doesn't work althought I never trained it." I should expect for pple to call me stupid, and rightly so. Don't go crying from another board just beacuse pple point that out to you.

[yenhoi]

LOL at gabe. The critics are saying DONT fight big giant biker guys. The critics are saying to ALWAYS expect a knife or other weapon of some kind, and the critics are saying that hanging from some larger guy's back trying to choke him was a bad idea. These were the things that lead to getting stabbed.

If the critics wouldn’t have gotten involved in the first place, how would they have been killed? :rolleyes:

Sounds like you are saying that if the knife wasn’t unexpectedly and unfairly involved, nothing would have went wrong? The knife isn’t why the choke didn’t work. Lack experience, lack of position, (and maybe bad technique) is why the choke didn’t work.

Its also just plain luck I guess (or smarts on the bikers part) that he didn’t get chopped up at the end when he was pleading for his life. Sounds like the biker, like most so-called "bad guys" knows the law better then the rest of us out there - as in, its better to just stab someone then to go ahead and kill them too..

its important that we recognize this scenario for what it was - very poor decision making, and horrible assumptions about weapons and knives being unexpected.

:eek:

[jmdrake]

Three initial problems:

Not taking the guy down to the ground before attempting the choke (or any type of submission or destruction.) This is even more important considering you and your boss outnumbered him.


Nonsense. Taking the guy to the ground would NOT have prevented the knife from being deployed. The biker could have pulled the knife out while going down. Plus we're talking about someone with an 110 lbs disadvantage and very little grappling experience, so the takedown isn't guaranteed. But I'll give you the same challege I gave knifie. Describe in detail the takedown, control and submission you think would have been "knifeproof".



Not expecting a weapon to be involved or to become involved. 'Specially after your boss escalated with the frying pan, and you continued with the choke attempt. These factors combined with you guys outnumbering him, would make almost any person involved in a fight, not to mention a biker, to use a weapon of his own. he had a chain visible, and looked gnarled. The knife was something that SHOULD have been expected.


Ok. I'll give you that. So other than pulling a gun what real suggestion do you have?



Third was not taking advantage of the fact that the guy was after someone else. He didn’t decide to deal with you until you started to actually threaten him (choke attempt) - you could have been the guy with a frying pan after he got to your boss.


Hmmm...seems to me that negative WAS taking advantage of the fact that the guy was after someone else. How else do you think he got the RNC locked in? Thuggy biker had his back to him. Now negative could have taken advantage of this and run out the door to the nearest pay phone (do those still exist?) and called the cops leaving the boss to his fate. But considering the fact that moron boss hit negative with the frying pan that might not have been a bad idea. :D



All mistakes of inexperience. Now you have learned the errors of your ways and assumptions, next time, like you already said - you wont be so quick to jump on someone’s back and just go for the choke.


And instead he'll do what? Go for a double leg takedown first? You really think that will make him knife proof?



Since everyone here seems to be an expert in grappling and knife fighting, then we ALL already know how easy it is to go for a choke while controlling or defending your opponents ENTIRE body.


Ok, I'm assuming you're being facetious here.



We also ALL already know that you don’t apply very many techniques at all while hanging onto a larger opponents back – ‘specially a veteran brawler like a gigantic biker guy with black boots and leather jacket and wallet chain. Where are all the WCK guys telling you that you should have hit him?


I think that everyone knows fighting someone that outweighs you by 110 lbs and may be armed just sucks. From a WC point of view, maybe he could have grabbed a pool cue and used it as a WC pole. Oh, but wait, they weren't in a bar. Ok, he could have grabbed a couple of meat cleavers and used them as butterfly knives. (Are there meat cleavers at Waffle house?)



You went for a choke on the street from someone’s back without taking them down or hitting them, without any semblance of control. You were asking to get beat down.


I'm still trying to figure out how this "magical takedown" would prevent someone from deploying a knife. Tell you what. Find someone who outweighs you by 110 lbs and give him a training knife. Tell him to put it in his pocket. Offer to pay him $100 if he can put it out and cut you with it. But he has to start with his back to you and he can't do anything until he feels you make contact. Let us know how it works out.

Hey, negative walked away from this with two non debilitating wounds. Not bad against a knife wielding opponent who outweighed him by that much. Ok, he did have to rely on "beg-for-mercy-fu" but so far I haven't heard anything that would have necessarily made any difference.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[yenhoi]

Read my posts (since you quoted them) more carefully.

I posted nothing of a magical knifeproof takedown.

The RNC was not locked in, or the guy would have been choked. Its almost impossible to lock in almost any choke while hanging from the back of a larger opponent. Positional dominance is required in almost any lock, choke, or strangle.

For your clarification, I will repeat:

Making the decision to takeon a big gnarled black boot wearin wallet chain weilding biker guy was a MISTAKE in the first place. The guy was not there to tango with him, it was his decision to fight the larger possibly armed assailant.

Assuming that the larger gnalred biker guy, who was unarmed, fighting two men, one with a weapon, the other attempting to sink in a choke - would not resort to using a weapon of any kind, specially one in his pocket that he knew about before the conflict, was a MISTAKE.

Attempting to apply any technique from an inferior position was a MISTAKE.

These were all mistakes that have very little to do with 20/20 hindsight. These are all BASIC self-defense factors that can be discussed, trained, and prepared for long before any street encounter.

Describe in detail the takedown, control and submission you think would have been "knifeproof".

Now look whos talking "nonsense." 'Round here we call that silly-talk. There is no-such thing, and no one in this discussion claimed otherwise. What I said (again) was that not taking him down before attempting a choke or lock was wrong. Its not right for those of you on the thread to applaud this person for "doing the best he could have" and the such. This was a poor decision, made in the heat of the moment, but still a bad thing to do. Its a bad thing to do even if you dont outnumber and outweapon your opponent.

Many professionals deal with this exact scenario almost every day. They are not allowed to just walk away, to just pull a gun, or any such actual nonsense. When you outnumber and outgun the bad guy, you put him on the ground and control him - AND YOU EXPECT A WEAPON TO BE INVOLVED OR TO BECOME INVOLVED AT ANY POINT.

so far I haven't heard anything that would have necessarily made any difference.

Maybe today and yesterday were your "not paying attention to the things I read" days on the forum.

I'm still trying to figure out how this "magical takedown" would prevent someone from deploying a knife. Tell you what. Find someone who outweighs you by 110 lbs and give him a training knife. Tell him to put it in his pocket. Offer to pay him $100 if he can put it out and cut you with it. But he has to start with his back to you and he can't do anything until he feels you make contact. Let us know how it works out.

Ok, I'm assuming you're being facetious here. Someone already ratted me out as 'one of those kali guys.'

:eek:

[jmdrake]

The other forum thread negativecr33p made on this subject:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=31428


I suppose it's just as gusty for negative to post his story at a hostile place like bullshido as it is for him to take on a 200+ lb biker. :D Anyway, what gets me is how so many people there (and some here) seem to think that a properly done RNC is "invincible" especially against someone with a knife. Ok, show of hands of everyone who's ever successfully defended an RNC when rolling BJJ? Now, honest show of hands of everyone who's ever tried unsuccessfully to sink in an RNC? If a proper RNC is SO unstoppable, then why are you instructed to sink your chin and grab the opponents are to "defend your neck" when you feel someone putting it on you? Here's a couple of RNC defenses from the U.S. Army combatives manual.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-25-150/ch8.htm

Sure, both are with the defender "standing up" and in neither case does the attacker have his "hooks in". But the key in both cases is that he defends his neck, buying himself a few precious seconds to "do something". There's also an escape from the RNC when you're "on the ground". That escape can be blocked, but the point is, the first thing to do is to defend the choke. But if you have a knife, how long do you have to defend? 30 seconds? Plenty of time! 10 seconds? 8 seconds? And maybe the attacker starts "loosing it" in less time than that. But how much do you have to be "with it" to stab someone in the shoulder? We're not talking "fine motor skill" here.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[yenhoi]

Where/when/who said anything about a RNC being "invincible" especially against someone with a knife." Or, SO unstoppable ?????

There is no way you are reading the same thread we are posting on.

If anything, many of us have made the case that a hanging RNC was a poor technique vs someone with a knife. I caught the draft that if there wasent a knife involved, that the RNC would have worked. If you knew your opponent had a knife, why on earth would you hang on his back attempting to apply a choke or submission?

Maybe someone switched your coffee with silly-juice!

:confused:

[jmdrake]

Read my posts (since you quoted them) more carefully.

I posted nothing of a magical knifeproof takedown.

The RNC was not locked in, or the guy would have been choked. Its almost impossible to lock in almost any choke while hanging from the back of a larger opponent.


Reread the INITIAL post carefully! The thug DID choke. But he remained conscious long enough to sink a knife into negative's shoulder.



Positional dominance is required in almost any lock, choke, or strangle.


For the record, being on someone's back with your hooks in is a position of dominance. In fact there's a name for it. It's called "back mount".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fm3-25-150combativesfig3-1backmount.png

Sure, the person is front is seated, but there's nothing to stop him from standing up. However under normal conditions (read, he doesn't have a knife) that doesn't really help him much.



For your clarification, I will repeat:

Making the decision to takeon a big gnarled black boot wearin wallet chain weilding biker guy was a MISTAKE in the first place. The guy was not there to tango with him, it was his decision to fight the larger possibly armed assailant.


And I will repeat NOBODY IS ARGUING AGAINST THAT POINT! Sure, he could have ran and left the boss to his fate. That wouldn't have been nice for the boss, but that would have been an option.



Assuming that the larger gnalred biker guy, who was unarmed, fighting two men, one with a weapon, the other attempting to sink in a choke - would not resort to using a weapon of any kind, specially one in his pocket that he knew about before the conflict, was a MISTAKE.


Again NOBODY IS ARGUING AGAINST THAT POINT. Gee, it must feel good to know you can make obvious points that nobody is disputing.



Attempting to apply any technique from an inferior position was a MISTAKE.


Being on someone's back with hooks in is not an "inferior position". MMA fighters choke out other MMA fighters that way all the time. But knives aren't allowed in MMA.



These were all mistakes that have very little to do with 20/20 hindsight. These are all BASIC self-defense factors that can be discussed, trained, and prepared for long before any street encounter.


The first isn't a "mistake" if the person being attacked is someone you care about. If a 240 lbs biker was attacking my wife or kids I'd take them on even if I KNEW they had a knife. I'd just know going into it that there was a high probability my wife would collect my life insurance policy. (That is, assuming she did the smart thing and ran instead of staying by to help me out.)

The second mistake, yeah that's a mistake but nobody is arguing differently.

The third "mistake", frankly I disagree. Being on someone's back, standing or or the ground, is a superior position. An RNC can be locked in that way. But there's no guarantee you won't get stabbed.



Describe in detail the takedown, control and submission you think would have been "knifeproof".

Now look whos talking "nonsense." 'Round here we call that silly-talk.


A) I never said (before) you were talking "nonsense".

B) You are clearly talking nonsense now.

First you claim that "negative" should have "taken the guy down first". Why? Well since the only thing bad that happened to negative was that he got stabbed than one can only assume you think this would have prevented the stabbing. I'm simply asking you the question "how"? That's a simple question that SHOULD have a simple answer if you aren't just "winging it". An answer like "Well my favorite takedown when someone might have a knife and has their back to me is ....".



There is no-such thing, and no one in this discussion claimed otherwise. What I said (again) was that not taking him down before attempting a choke or lock was wrong.


Wrong because what? Wrong because he got stabbed? So how does your "correct" method prevent the stabbing? Please oh wise one tell us.



Its not right for those of you on the thread to applaud this person for "doing the best he could have" and the such. This was a poor decision, made in the heat of the moment, but still a bad thing to do. Its a bad thing to do even if you dont outnumber and outweapon your opponent.


And your "armchair" advise would have prevented the stabbing how?



Many professionals deal with this exact scenario almost every day. They are not allowed to just walk away, to just pull a gun, or any such actual nonsense. When you outnumber and outgun the bad guy, you put him on the ground and control him - AND YOU EXPECT A WEAPON TO BE INVOLVED OR TO BECOME INVOLVED AT ANY POINT.


Once again, noone is arguing NOT to expect a weapon. So why do you keep belaboring the obvious? But if I think someone might have a knife the LAST place I want to be is on the ground. You think otherwise. I'm just asking why. No reason for you to get all bent out of shape.



so far I haven't heard anything that would have necessarily made any difference.

Maybe today and yesterday were your "not paying attention to the things I read" days on the forum.


I was paying attention. I'm just saying much of what I've read has been BS. What you've written here is no exception.



I'm still trying to figure out how this "magical takedown" would prevent someone from deploying a knife. Tell you what. Find someone who outweighs you by 110 lbs and give him a training knife. Tell him to put it in his pocket. Offer to pay him $100 if he can put it out and cut you with it. But he has to start with his back to you and he can't do anything until he feels you make contact. Let us know how it works out.

Ok, I'm assuming you're being facetious here. Someone already ratted me out as 'one of those kali guys.'

:eek:

No. I'm actually being serious. That's the only way you could be sure your "choke from the ground" would have made any difference from a standing RNC with hooks in.

Look, according to the original story (which I concede could be BS even with the pics) the biker started going "limp" after 5 seconds. If you "Google" the RNC you'll see most "experts" saying it will work in under 10. Well 5 is less than 10. (Now I'm belaboring the obvious). So if you've taken someone to the ground and you're working a choke that MAY take 10 seconds when "done right" how do you guarantee you won't get stabbed? How do you guarantee you won't get stabbed on the takedown? And if you CAN'T guarantee that, then how can you honestly claim what you're suggesting would have worked any better?

But hey, I'm still waiting to hear your favorite takedown against someone that outweighs you by 110 lbs, has his back to you and may have a knife. Really, is that SO much to ask? Or would you rather continue telling us two things we already know (assume thug has a knife, avoid situation if possible) while asserting something that's simply not true (being on someone's back with hooks in is an "inferior" position)?

And for the record, I'm not sure what being a "kali guy" has to do with it, except for the fact that I'd expect you to be carrying a knife of your own. ;)

Regards,

John M. Drake

[jmdrake]

Where/when/who said anything about a RNC being "invincible" especially against someone with a knife." Or, SO unstoppable ?????

There is no way you are reading the same thread we are posting on.


Ummm...IF YOU READ WHAT I WROTE YOU'D KNOW THAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT BOTH THIS THREAD AND THE BULLSHIDO THREAD!

So feel free to pull your foot out of your mouth at any time now.



If anything, many of us have made the case that a hanging RNC was a poor technique vs someone with a knife. I caught the draft that if there wasent a knife involved, that the RNC would have worked. If you knew your opponent had a knife, why on earth would you hang on his back attempting to apply a choke or submission?


And your "answer" to this is to "do a takedown first". Ooooookaaaay.



:confused:

Yes. You are clearly confused.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Tom Kagan]

But hey, I'm still waiting to hear your favorite takedown against someone that outweighs you by 110 lbs, has his back to you and may have a knife. Really, is that SO much to ask?


A surprise frying pan attack is an extremely high percentage takedown (greater than 98%).

Of course, you have to execute it properly. Clearly, negativecr33p's boss had very poor technique.


Regards,

Wile E. Coyote
- Super Genius
- Master, Acme KungFu

[Ultimatewingchun]

"An RNC will put a guy out in less than 10 sec. If he struggles it will be quicker. The technique works great. I used it even before I did BJJ, given that I learned it in Judo I done this personally both in training (some pple just don't know when to tap) and in real fights." (Asia)


***I'VE JUST GOT TO LAUGH at all the remarks like this one.

Yeah...a perfect rnc should put someone out in less than 10 seconds...true.

But the real world is not perfect. Maybe the guy had thick clothes on...or a thick neck...or he turned and tucked so that neither his throat nor a carotid where right there for the taking...or he's a bull against a much lighter guy....or something happened and the choke wasn't applied as quick as it would be under "perfect" conditions by negative.

How many UFC or Pride fights have we seen where someone takes a back and "goes" for the rear naked choke and the other guy fights it off to the point of escaping or manages to survive for 10-15 seconds before tapping? (and this is closer to "perfect" conditions because it's sporting event in a ring with referees - not a real life situation in a closed space after getting hit with a frying pan against a guy who quickly pulled a knife out of his pocket.

[godzillakungfu]

I brought up the BJJ to negativec33p. She crossed posted on another forum, then changed the story. When I said first post it was on another forum my bad. Her initial post was BJJ loses. Hence my grab at the profile and WC/TSD for a total of 4 years training.

I realize now it came across as one style vs another that wasn't my intent.
Anyway I see the point you're driving at, hindsight is 20/20, and that a weapon changes circumsances.

[yenhoi]

Well, since you have "gone there":

So feel free to pull your foot out of your mouth at any time now.

It was you, putting words in my 'mouth' in the very same post that you quoted my post. The audience can see who is not reading. So I think its your mouth from my foot that needs to be removed.

And your "answer" to this is to "do a takedown first". Ooooookaaaay.

You know this is untrue, that I did not say this, its all archived in plain text for us all to look back on. Why would you keep 'saying' that I 'said' stuff that I didnt?

For someone who knows how to use the quote button, this is very funny. I didnt say that, and neither did anyone else. I admit I have not read the bullshido thread, and I dont think its necessary to... Is there an invisible yenhoi posting things that the rest of us cant see, or is this some weird forum game you have decided to start playing recently. You dont think people notice where and when you DID use the quote button? Maybe people dont, but I notice you only quote what was actually posted, and the rest of the outlandish extreme things are just random exaggerations that you have decided to present as truth.

A RNC does not work if you are attempting to do it while hanging from a larger persons back. It was a bad choice of solution in the first place, considering.

Id like you to describe in detail a standing lock or choke that can be applied to a knife weilding opponent, then maybe you can educate us on some techniques that work while hanging from a larger knife weidling opponents back. These are my points that you have somehow glossed over while reading my doppleganger's invisible words.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Knifefighter]

For the record, being on someone's back with your hooks in is a position of dominance. In fact there's a name for it. It's called "back mount".
Being on someone's back, standing or or the ground, is a superior position.
Being on someone's back with your hooks in is called "stupid" if you are trying to do it when you are standing. Same thing with tryng to finish a RNC when hanging off someone's neck.



Sure, the person is front is seated, but there's nothing to stop him from standing up. However under normal conditions (read, he doesn't have a knife) that doesn't really help him much.

The pressure from the hooks are the control point that will keep the opponent from standing. This should be taught in the first month or two of BJJ classes.



Being on someone's back with hooks in is not an "inferior position". MMA fighters choke out other MMA fighters that way all the time. But knives aren't allowed in MMA.
The hooks in also make it very difficult for the opponent to access a knife if it is in his pocket since the person with the back mount has his thighs pretty much covering the pockets.


I'm simply asking you the question "how"? That's a simple question that SHOULD have a simple answer if you aren't just "winging it".

It does have a simple answer. If you can grab the opponent's neck, all you've got to do is take his legs out (there are several ways to do this taught in most BJJ currriculums), and quickly sink the hooks in to keep him from accessing the knife. From there it is pretty simple to finish the choke, assuming the person has not had practice in defending it.



No. I'm actually being serious. That's the only way you could be sure your "choke from the ground" would have made any difference from a standing RNC with hooks in.
The RNC should be finished on the ground with the hooks in.
Are you sure you’ve been training BJJ for a year? I guess I will have to take back my original statement about the one year BJJ practitioner. Looks like the McDojoization of BJJ has begun.

[Knifefighter]

Of course the RNC choke works, but who knows if this guy didnt have coke or meth running through his veins which would/could have negated the attempted RNC.....!

Drugs have no effect (other than making one more likely to die from the choke) on whether or not a RNC choke works. Cutting off the blood supply to the brain causes unconsciousness whether or not one is on drugs.

[yenhoi]

Its not back mount if the guy is standing. Specially, like you pointed out over and over, if he is 110lbs heavier. That would be what most of us call hanging on a bigger guys back, no school worth anything on earth considers that a control position.

Not getting in the way of the bigger gnarled biker guy who was after the boss man would have gone a long way in preventing the stabbing.

There are many, many takedowns from a rear position, having his opponent on the ground would go a long way towards preventing the knife from being deployed. One or both arms could be controlled or pinned, the pockets could be covered, arms and legs tied up - instead of commiting both arms to a choke. This is even more true because they outnumbered him. He would be much easier to control with two people on the ground then continuting the fight standing.

Wrong because what? Wrong because he got stabbed? So how does your "correct" method prevent the stabbing? Please oh wise one tell us.

Wrong because any choke or submission is low percentage from an inferior position. Hanging on someones back is not backmout. There is no control what-so-ever, only a hold, and a poor one at that, considering the guy was so much bigger. The choke was not locked in at any point, or the guy would be lights out. Thats how you know a choke has worked, when the guy passes out. We all know this. Even with hooks in, being on someones back when they are standing is not a control position in the least. Specially when both arms are tied up attempting a choke.

Wrong because no attempt was made to control before the submission attempt. Knife or no knife.

I justified the takedown because they outnumbered and out-weaponed the guy before he drew a knife. This would be a standard subdue tactic used by any LEO or other persons who deal with this exact scenario almost every day.

Any grappler would rather be in an actual backmount controlling the opponents posture, arms and neck, as opposed to just hanging onto the big guys neck hoping your hold will end up choking the guy. Take the knife out of the scenario and the same self-defense mistakes were made.

I never said that the RNC applied correctly saves you from a knife attack. Taking the guy down and controling his posture and arms would be key to not allowing the weapon to be deployed, or used. I have never said anything would be magical or knife proof.

I'm still waiting to hear your favorite takedown against someone that outweighs you by 110 lbs, has his back to you and may have a knife. Really, is that SO much to ask? Or would you rather continue telling us two things we

A "spine compression throw" where you hold the guys neck, collar of jacket, forehead, and then bend him at nearly any point, ankle, knee, under the thigh, above the hip, in the small of the back, the elbow, under the arm pit, or even cross wise between the shoulders. This is just one takedown of many that could be used against an opponent who has his back turned. Even a bearhug bodyclinch tackle that drove the opponent face first into the ground or wall would be better then just holding on.

No. I'm actually being serious. That's the only way you could be sure your "choke from the ground" would have made any difference from a standing RNC with hooks in.

Well, then I was being sarcastic. Your scenario is how most kali people (should ;) ) train knife, and find out that attempting to submit a standing fighting opponent is low-percentage, knife or no knife.

I also think we are victums of some cross-posting, but that doesnt matter, you are still trying to put words in my mouth in the very same posts where you use the quote button...

:eek:

[Asia]

"An RNC will put a guy out in less than 10 sec. If he struggles it will be quicker. The technique works great. I used it even before I did BJJ, given that I learned it in Judo I done this personally both in training (some pple just don't know when to tap) and in real fights." (Asia)


***I'VE JUST GOT TO LAUGH at all the remarks like this one.

Yeah...a perfect rnc should put someone out in less than 10 seconds...true.

But the real world is not perfect. Maybe the guy had thick clothes on...or a thick neck...or he turned and tucked so that neither his throat nor a carotid where right there for the taking...or he's a bull against a much lighter guy....or something happened and the choke wasn't applied as quick as it would be under "perfect" conditions by negative.

Wow you just proved you're FULL OF ****.

I never said it needs to be PERFECT nor does it have to be. If you can manage to cut of the cartoid artiers it doesn't have to be textbook.



How many UFC or Pride fights have we seen where someone takes a back and "goes" for the rear naked choke and the other guy fights it off to the point of escaping or manages to survive for 10-15 seconds before tapping? (and this is closer to "perfect" conditions because it's sporting event in a ring with referees - not a real life situation in a closed space after getting hit with a frying pan against a guy who quickly pulled a knife out of his pocket.

Have you really watched these fights. Because I see, from and extensive collection and from personal expereince in MMA, BJJ/Subwrestling, that pple will tap quickly when the realize the RNC is sunk in and its within 10 secs.

Also reread the post you got your account of the events in this "fight" off.

[Merryprankster]

Asia,

You're actually cutting off the jugular veins. Backpressure prevents oxygenated blood from reaching the brain. The Carotids are pretty deep... This is why you turn pink/purple instead of looking like a bled carcass :D.

On a related note, but still keeping myself out of this mess, I have choked out 4 people with blood chokes. And I mean OUT.

It took considerably less than 10 seconds in all cases.

[Asia]

Asia,

You're actually cutting off the jugular veins. Backpressure prevents oxygenated blood from reaching the brain. The Carotids are pretty deep... This is why you turn pink/purple instead of looking like a bled carcass :D.

On a related note, but still keeping myself out of this mess, I have choked out 4 people with blood chokes. And I mean OUT.

It took considerably less than 10 seconds in all cases.

Hey MP,

You're right its Jugular. I meant to put that instead of CA. My bad. :D

[anerlich]

I suppose it's just as gusty for negative to post his story at a hostile place like bullshido

Judging from some posts on here, I'd say this place is every bit as hostile as bullshido.

Jeez, the poor guy finds himself in a dangerous situation through no fault of his own, tells his story warts and all so that other people can learn from what he perceives are his mistakes, and this vociferous armchair quarterbacking starts, and apparently never ends.

Props to negativecreep for doing the best he could in a bad situation, and the guts to post about it on this forum, though it was obvious that it would do him little good.

[Asia]

Judging from some posts on here, I'd say this place is every bit as hostile as bullshido.

Jeez, the poor guy finds himself in a dangerous situation through no fault of his own, tells his story warts and all so that other people can learn from what he perceives are his mistakes, and this vociferous armchair quarterbacking starts, and apparently never ends.

Props to negativecreep for doing the best he could in a bad situation, and the guts to post about it on this forum, though it was obvious that it would do him little good.

If you read the Bullshido thread it was actually posted as Brazilian Jiu Jitus Looses. Which sparked some hostility when the NC said SHE didn't train BJJ. And it also called into question if she did a decent RNC despite confusing it with an AIR choke which it isn't.

So to recap a girl jumps on a guy that has 110lbs on her and gets stabbed and whacked with a frying pan orginally attriubted this loss to BJJ not working instead of 1) not applying a technique properly and 2) getting into a situations where she was already at a huge disadvantage.

[anerlich]

Negative, sorry for the gender misunderstanding.

I don't need to read the Bullshido thread to conclude that this forum is as potentially hostile as any other on the web and more than most.


So to recap a girl jumps on a guy that has 110lbs on her and gets stabbed and whacked with a frying pan orginally attriubted this loss to BJJ not working instead of 1) not applying a technique properly and 2) getting into a situations where she was already at a huge disadvantage.

She's very brave, huh?

Or are you suggesting some other less attractive character trait? Shame on you.

[Asia]

I don't need to read the Bullshido thread to conclude that this forum is as potentially hostile as any other on the web and more than most.


I didn't say you had to for that. I said you should read the other thread to understand where some of the hostility came from.


Or are you suggesting some other less attractive character trait? Shame on you.

What are you trying get at?:confused:

I simply recaped the story.

[Banjos_dad]

or when they are wearing a heavy coat like one of those wanksta style puffed out NFL parkas from the 90's... can't compress it enough to seal off the blood flow because the puffiness just keeps "giving."

you wind up having to throw the guy down & switch to impact moves.

damm though Negative, ouch! that's one heck of an account. i hope you didn't lose any mobility or anything with that wound.

[jmdrake]

Being on someone's back with your hooks in is called "stupid" if you are trying to do it when you are standing. Same thing with tryng to finish a RNC when hanging off someone's neck.


Funny but I've seen quite a few people do this "stupid" move successfully in MMA.



The pressure from the hooks are the control point that will keep the opponent from standing. This should be taught in the first month or two of BJJ classes.


The pressure from the hooks are to keep the other person from escaping either by flipping you over (if you're on his back) or escaping to the side (if your on your back). I'm not sure why you're worrying about the opponent "standing" because that alone won't get him out of the choke. If he's standing and you don't have your hooks in he can flip you. If your hooks are in he can't.



The hooks in also make it very difficult for the opponent to access a knife if it is in his pocket since the person with the back mount has his thighs pretty much covering the pockets.


And if it's in his boot? If he has it in his jacket pocket? If he pulled the knife out while you were taking him down? Lots of variables there.



It does have a simple answer. If you can grab the opponent's neck, all you've got to do is take his legs out (there are several ways to do this taught in most BJJ currriculums), and quickly sink the hooks in to keep him from accessing the knife. From there it is pretty simple to finish the choke, assuming the person has not had practice in defending it.


And while you're taking his legs out he has time to pull the knife. While your trying to get the hooks sunk in he has time to pull the knife. And the initial part of choke defense is "common reaction". Before I was shown the "proper" way to defend a choke I knew to tuck my neck and grab the opponents arm because that just seems like the "right thing to do".



The RNC should be finished on the ground with the hooks in.
Are you sure you’ve been training BJJ for a year? I guess I will have to take back my original statement about the one year BJJ practitioner. Looks like the McDojoization of BJJ has begun.

Funny ha ha. Most RNCs are finished from the ground because you usually don't get a CHANCE to go for one when someone's standing up. No, we don't "train" standing RNCs and it's for that very reason. But I've seen them pulled off in MMA. That's the "gold standard" for you right genius? The defenders usually try to slam the opponent into the cage. Or in one case I saw the defender "flip" onto the ground. But to no avail. The RNC held. I'm sure you (super non "McDojo" BJJ knifefighter with ZERO pro MMA record) could have coached these guys out of the RNC since you know everything. Then again...maybe not.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[jmdrake]

Ok yenhoi, step back, take a few DEEP breaths, then reply.


Well, since you have "gone there":

So feel free to pull your foot out of your mouth at any time now.

It was you, putting words in my 'mouth' in the very same post that you quoted my post. The audience can see who is not reading. So I think its your mouth from my foot that needs to be removed.

And your "answer" to this is to "do a takedown first". Ooooookaaaay.

You know this is untrue, that I did not say this, its all archived in plain text for us all to look back on. Why would you keep 'saying' that I 'said' stuff that I didnt?


This is what you DID say!

Three initial problems:...
You went for a choke on the street from someone’s back without taking them down or hitting them, without any semblance of control.

So please explain the difference between saying "without taking them down" and "do a takedown first"? Clearly you think the choke would have worked better if it wasn't done "without a takedown first". Getting rid of the double negative and we have "do a takedown first". Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's clearly what you implied. But notice I PHRASED THIS AS A QUESTION! You understand the difference between a question and a quote right? No, I guess you don't. Now I have to give knifefighter at least SOME props for backing up his argument instead of taking the "I didn't say that" cop out from something that can CLEARLY BE IMPLIED by what you DID say.



For someone who knows how to use the quote button, this is very funny. I didnt say that, and neither did anyone else. I admit I have not read the bullshido thread, and I dont think its necessary to...


And yet when I didn't refer to you directly (when talking about people acting like the RNC was "invincible") you automatically assumed I was.



Is there an invisible yenhoi posting things that the rest of us cant see, or is this some weird forum game you have decided to start playing recently.


The "forum game" is trying to pretend there's some big difference between saying negative "made a mistake" for attempting a choke "without doing a take down first" and saying "do a takedown first".



You dont think people notice where and when you DID use the quote button?


You don't think people notice where you said "without a takedown first?"



Maybe people dont, but I notice you only quote what was actually posted, and the rest of the outlandish extreme things are just random exaggerations that you have decided to present as truth.


"Wild exagerration" my eye! Either he should have done a takedown first or not. Either a takedown would have helped his chances of pulling of the choke or not. Make up your mind. Take a position and stick to it.



A RNC does not work if you are attempting to do it while hanging from a larger persons back. It was a bad choice of solution in the first place, considering.


And yet, with hooks in (you left that out in your above description) I have seen it work in MMA. Still your choice would be to "do a takedown first"? Oh, and notice the question mark behind the quote. In other words I AM ASKING YOU A QUESTION! Now, rather than assuming I'm "putting words in your mouth" you could just say "no that's not what I meant". Then you could explain whatever it is you meant, because that's really not clear.



Id like you to describe in detail a standing lock or choke that can be applied to a knife weilding opponent, then maybe you can educate us on some techniques that work while hanging from a larger knife weidling opponents back.


And I'd like you to describe in detail how an RNC on the ground might be applied to an opponent that pulled his knife while you were taking him down. I won't let you get away with knifefigher's "the hooks will stop him from pulling his knife" argument since that weakly assumes the thug didn't start pulling his knife until you A) got him on the ground and B) managed to sink your hooks in.

Really, I haven't claimed to have an answer here. I haven't said anyone made a "mistake". You are (apparently) the one that thinks negative could have had a better outcome by following your advice with regard to takedowns and chokes. (And I won't even bother to ask what that advice is for fear of offending you and you thinking I'm "putting words in your mouth".)

Hey, I'd love to hear some takedowns that prevent someone from deploying a knife. Knifefighters "grab their neck and take out their legs" takedown leaves both arms free during the entire move. Silly old "McDojo BJJ" me says "but can't he still pull his knife"?



These are my points that you have somehow glossed over while reading my doppleganger's invisible words.


Riiiiight. Your "doppleganger" who said that the choke shouldn't be done "without a takedown". Oh wait a minute. That was YOU. :p

Anyway, what you AND knifefighter seem to be overlooking is that the choke was (again ACCORDING TO THE STORY) working! 5 seconds into the choke the thugs legs were starting to buckle. Now most realistic estimates I've seen for completed an RNC is 10 seconds. I'll grant that "negative" didn't have a stopwatch and can't say for sure exactly HOW long it was taking. I'll also grant the possibility that he made the whole story up (though with pics I doubt that). But if we consider the POSSIBILITY yes the POSSIBILITY that it actually WAS working then he was getting results just as fast as other people report getting them on the ground. More importantly 5 seconds, 10 seconds and DEFINITELY 30 seconds is long enough to pull a knife. When you add into that factor X number of seconds it takes to complete the takedown of someone much bigger than you....well I just don't like those odds. Maybe you, knifie and your "doppleganger" do.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[jmdrake]

Have you really watched these fights. Because I see, from and extensive collection and from personal expereince in MMA, BJJ/Subwrestling, that pple will tap quickly when the realize the RNC is sunk in and its within 10 secs.


Right. And most of these (well ALL of these) people don't have a knife and don't consider it a "fight to the death". If I feel someone has a choke locked in and there's really nothing I can do I'll tap rather than sit there and "go unconscious". But that's different from if I was on the street and thought there might be "no walking away from this one" AND if I had a knife. Really, think about it. I have to have a hand free to "tap" right? If I have that hand free and if I can get to my knife I can slice/stab just as easily as I can "tap".

And I think that's the point that's gotten lost on some in this thread (you know who you are. :D) Again, assuming the story is accurate (meaning "not BS" and meaning negative got the details right) the choke was WORKING! Maybe it SHOULDN'T have worked (though I've seen standing chokes work in MMA) but it was. But with a knife in the mix you really have no guarantees. (And before some idiot claims I said someone used the "guarantee" word I've clearly not said that).

Anyway, until someone actually gets a training knife and "tests" the scenario we're all just "armchair quarterbacking" regardless of what we think we know.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[jmdrake]

Oh, and for the record, he're someone finishing a standing rear naked choke in UFC 45. I guess he must be a "McDojo" BJJ fighter huh?

http://www.boxing-pics.com/ufc45_revolution/header.jpg
http://www.boxing-pics.com/ufc45_revolution/mulholland_ufc45.html

A wild night celebrating the 10th anniversary of the UFC was capped off by welterweight champion, Matt Hughes making the fifth successful defense of his title, by choking out upstart challenger Frank Trigg with a standing rear naked choke at 3:54 of the first round.

Trigg started quickly and surprised Hughes, taking him to the mat quickly, and the two put on a tremendous display of wrestling skills. Hughes superior wrestling skills began to take over as he prevented Trigg for doing any damage and was able to lift Trigg to his shoulders while parading around the ring almost posing for photographers and fans alike before depositing Trigg hard onto the mat. Trigg was able to once again fend off Hughes from the bottom position and once again reversed things.

Quick as lightning, Hughes was able to seize a small opening and take Trigg’s back, as Trigg rose clawing at Hughes hands, Hughes was able to snap in a standing rear naked choke. Trigg was left defenseless and tapped out as his legs gave way and both fighters crashed to the canvas. With the win, Hughes moves his MMA record to 30-3. Trigg’s MMA record falls to 7-2.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Edmund]

LOL at gabe. The critics are saying DONT fight big giant biker guys. The critics are saying to ALWAYS expect a knife or other weapon of some kind, and the critics are saying that hanging from some larger guy's back trying to choke him was a bad idea. These were the things that lead to getting stabbed.

If the critics wouldn’t have gotten involved in the first place, how would they have been killed? :rolleyes:


Yenhoi, you're the one criticizing negativecreep's actions.

I just pointed out it was stupid to criticize him.

1. You weren't there. You don't know what the other guy was like (strength, speed, fighting ability). Or how quick it happened.

2. It's criticism in hindsight. Knowing after the event that he's got a concealed knife and a history of violent assault.

3. He was hit with a frying pan. Hit yourself with a frying pan and start the decisionmaking process.

It's all so easy when you aren't actually the person in the situation.

[Knifefighter]

Funny but I've seen quite a few people do this "stupid" move successfully in MMA
That's the "gold standard" for you right genius?
While MMA is a great laboratory for seeing how different techniques and strategies can be applied, one has to have the intelligence to realize that some things you might do in a MMA setting, you would not want to do in a real SD situation. A standing choke is one of those. Trying to choke someone out with the hooks in while standing gives you a very high probability of getting slammed into a very hard surface with the full brunt of the opponent’s weight on top of you… not good if the opponent is bigger than you and/or you have a hard surface to land on.



The pressure from the hooks are to keep the other person from escaping either by flipping you over (if you're on his back) or escaping to the side (if your on your back). .
Using the hooks, one wants to extend the opponent out if he tries to stand.


I'm not sure why you're worrying about the opponent "standing" because that alone won't get him out of the choke.
Because you have a high risk of getting slammed. It’s the same reason you don’t hold a triangle if someone stands up.



If he pulled the knife out while you were taking him down?
Very hard to get the blade out while you are being taken down if the guy has your back and knows much about takedowns. Grab a wrestler and give him a back grip. See if you can get the knife out on the way down.



And while you're taking his legs out he has time to pull the knife. While your trying to get the hooks sunk in he has time to pull the knife.
Try it. I think you'll find it is much harder than you think.



And the initial part of choke defense is "common reaction". Before I was shown the "proper" way to defend a choke I knew to tuck my neck and grab the opponents arm because that just seems like the "right thing to do".

Defending the choke requires you to use both hands. Hard to get the blade when you are doing that. Going for the knife makes the choke work faster because you are no longer protecting the neck.


Anyway, until someone actually gets a training knife and "tests" the scenario we're all just "armchair quarterbacking" regardless of what we think we know.
I've been playing with this type of stuff for 20 + years now and I've found if you've got the neck from behind and halfway decent takedown skills from there, there's almost no way the guy is getting the blade out on the way down, especially if its in his pocket. Same thing once you hit the ground, if you know enough about ground positioning and weapons control.

Too bad your BJJ curriculum isn't teaching you about what happens when weapons come into play when grappling and groundfighting.

[yenhoi]

Standing submissions are low percentage and highly poor choice of solution for a self-defense situation. I think keeping the fight standing when he outnumbered and out-weaponed his opponent was a mistake. Attempting a RNC while hanging from the back of his larger opponent was a bad decision. Attempting a RNC in a possible weapon situtation, standing or on the ground is a bad idea.

No one on this thread has claimed a solution that would be knife proof or magical. No one claimed a new type of takedown that would prevent someone in all scenarios from deploying their weapon. There are lots of things that can and should be done in these types of scenarios to minimize the ability and opporatunity for the opponent to deploy a weapon and/or use it.

You went for a choke on the street from someone’s back without taking them down or hitting them, without any semblance of control.

These words were exactly what I meant when I typed them. DO not go for submissions without first taking them down or hitting them. Control and dominant position are two vital element when attempting a submission. Many holds work standing up, but you must still have dominant position and control over your opponent. In both UFC's you posted, neither man was able to improve his posture or otherwise conter the standing/hanging RNC because the other man had complete control. Neither of those men had any sort of weight advantage.

Hopefully I have cleared any confusion I caused by not taking any deep breaths.

I was not trying to say that a takedown is the answer to a knife weilding opponent. My point was that any opponent, knife or not, is easier to control on the ground, and that it would have better for him to have ground his opponent being that him and his boss outnumbered him. The more options you can take away from the bad guys the better. Hanging out of some big guys back trying to choke him is a bad way to deal with a real self-defense situation. I believe that in any encounter you should always be working for better position and control, long before you attempt any sort of submission. I also think you should be constantly pounding away at your opponent, and using any weapons of your own.

:eek:

[negativecr33p]

Yenhoi, you're the one criticizing negativecreep's actions.

I just pointed out it was stupid to criticize him.

1. You weren't there. You don't know what the other guy was like (strength, speed, fighting ability). Or how quick it happened.

2. It's criticism in hindsight. Knowing after the event that he's got a concealed knife and a history of violent assault.

3. He was hit with a frying pan. Hit yourself with a frying pan and start the decisionmaking process.

It's all so easy when you aren't actually the person in the situation.


Haha, I love it. I wanna do the hitting though. I'll even turn my back and see if he can put me out with an RNC before I stab him to. End this argument once and for all.

[negativecr33p]

Standing submissions are low percentage and highly poor choice of solution for a self-defense situation. I think keeping the fight standing when he outnumbered and out-weaponed his opponent was a mistake. Attempting a RNC while hanging from the back of his larger opponent was a bad decision. Attempting a RNC in a possible weapon situtation, standing or on the ground is a bad idea.

No one on this thread has claimed a solution that would be knife proof or magical. No one claimed a new type of takedown that would prevent someone in all scenarios from deploying their weapon. There are lots of things that can and should be done in these types of scenarios to minimize the ability and opporatunity for the opponent to deploy a weapon and/or use it.

You went for a choke on the street from someone’s back without taking them down or hitting them, without any semblance of control.

These words were exactly what I meant when I typed them. DO not go for submissions without first taking them down or hitting them. Control and dominant position are two vital element when attempting a submission. Many holds work standing up, but you must still have dominant position and control over your opponent. In both UFC's you posted, neither man was able to improve his posture or otherwise conter the standing/hanging RNC because the other man had complete control. Neither of those men had any sort of weight advantage.

Hopefully I have cleared any confusion I caused by not taking any deep breaths.

I was not trying to say that a takedown is the answer to a knife weilding opponent. My point was that any opponent, knife or not, is easier to control on the ground, and that it would have better for him to have ground his opponent being that him and his boss outnumbered him. The more options you can take away from the bad guys the better. Hanging out of some big guys back trying to choke him is a bad way to deal with a real self-defense situation. I believe that in any encounter you should always be working for better position and control, long before you attempt any sort of submission. I also think you should be constantly pounding away at your opponent, and using any weapons of your own.

:eek:


Ughhh it seems you're all focusing to much on each others arguments and not what happened. We were litterally in between a wall and a big hanging tv, had I taken the dude down from behind and made him fall forward, my boss's head would have gone through a television, any other way he would have grabbed the sink for stability.

The only reason I kept the standing choke, knowing full well he could slam me, was my boss was infront of him trying to keep him from getting enough space to do so. Why he stuttered every other word underneath the sun besides ****ign "KNIFE" when he saw the knife, I will never ever know.

Like I said before, had he not stabbed me, I feel about 80-90% confident I/we would have won the confrontation easily, even if he hadn't passed out, he would have been EXTREMELY weak after another few seconds of the choke.

And please, don't give me any **** about your knees covering someones pockets so they can't get to a knife....my legs were wrapped around that big ass mother ****er whichever way they could fit.

[yenhoi]

I was critisizing your decisions leading up to the stabbing. It was not negative. There was already a pile of mouth candy when I began responding to this thread.

People keep suggesting that its a good idea to train this exact scenario in your everyday training. I agree. This type of training should be in everyones normal training.

I wasent critisizing in hindsight, I pointed out three basic self-defense topics that should have been approached differently. We can all justify all we want that what really happened just happened and there was no way to change it, hay at least at least no one died - but thats not the case. Self-defense should not be approached in this hap-hazzard, shoot from the hip, manner. There are variables that you can address and affect the total outcome.

Im not saying you had to take him down, but if your idea was to end the encounter with a submission/choke, then you should have. Submitting from inferior position is a bad idea in sport or the street. There is generally always something better to do then hold on and hope.

Expecting a weapon does not fall into the category of hindsight. Generally, weapons should always be expected and addressed. Always, in every scenario and encounter.

..and not fighting the guy or at least waiting until he was commited to pounding the second guy is not hindsight. This is a basic evasion/deception tactic that sounds like it could have been employed. You ended up behind the guy anyways.

Getting hit with a frying pan and other consequences of being involved in a real life encounter dont then absolve you from looking at the scenario carefully and truthfully afterwards.

You did a good job by not getting killed. You won when it came to survival. You said yourself you would do things differently. It goes without saying that things went wrong and didnt go your way - you went to work one day and got stabbed by a biker. In any three minute round, tournament match, or real life encounter of any sort you can always look back and find the things that went wrong, and things that you did wrong.

:eek:

[jmdrake]

While MMA is a great laboratory for seeing how different techniques and strategies can be applied, one has to have the intelligence to realize that some things you might do in a MMA setting, you would not want to do in a real SD situation. A standing choke is one of those. Trying to choke someone out with the hooks in while standing gives you a very high probability of getting slammed into a very hard surface with the full brunt of the opponent’s weight on top of you… not good if the opponent is bigger than you and/or you have a hard surface to land on.


LOL at you now trying to take on the "street versus sport" argument that's usually used against you.

Anyway, slams are irrelavent to what we're talking about. Seriously, did biker thug attempt a slam? No. So that has nothing to do with what I'm trying to get at which is to minimize the chances of what REALLY happened. (Negative getting stabbed.) The only legitimate questions if we're looking at minimizing the possibility of being stabbed are:

A) Would an RNC on the ground be finished faster than a standing one? If so by how many seconds? (Seems to me it's about 10 seconds either way.)

B) Would an RNC on the ground make it harder to be able to pull a knife? Well..it depends. If the knife's in the back pocket, certainly if you have the opponent sitting on his butt he can't get to his knife. On the flipside if it's a boot knife it's easier to reach it from a grounded position, since you don't have to bend down.

Furthermore a slam simply isn't a good defense for an RNC. It MIGHT work and it MIGHT not. The only way it will work is if the choker gets knocked out. Personal story. In high school when we playing "no pads" tackle football someone much bigger than me by picking him up falling back with him falling on top. It knocked the snot out of me. (Litterally. I had a cold and this cleared my nose). Anyway, the bottom line is I wasn't knocked unconscious. Ok, this was outside in the grass which is softer than concrete but harder than mats in a ring. Anyway, if you have an RNC in and someone slams you like that and you're NOT knocked out, you'll still have the choke in. You'll also be in the standard position where the choke is normally finished.

Also note that if you feel someone getting ready to fall back you can always drop one or both of your feet to the ground. Note in the pic I posted the person executing the choke has only one hook in. The other is (most likely) on the ground. That way he can stop the person from choking from flipping him (a high percentage way to beat an RNC) or slamming him.



Using the hooks, one wants to extend the opponent out if he tries to stand.


Well we extend the opponent, but that has nothing to do with him standing. Nobody at my school would be dumb enough to try to stand to get out of an RNC.



Because you have a high risk of getting slammed. It’s the same reason you don’t hold a triangle if someone stands up.


That's even LESS relevant then your first point. In a triangle choke slamming is good because even if you don't knock the other guy out with the slam, you'll likely get him to loosen up from the force of the slam (as opposed to an RNC slam which leaves the other person locked in). Also even if the slam doesn't work, you're in no worse position than before you tried it. And the person in the triangle doesn't have the option of doing a move that stops the slam but keeps the choke (like the person in the RNC does by dropping one or both feet to the floor.)



Very hard to get the blade out while you are being taken down if the guy has your back and knows much about takedowns. Grab a wrestler and give him a back grip. See if you can get the knife out on the way down.


How about I grab a whitebelt that weighs 100 lbs less than me and let him try? Also a "back grip" is quite different from that stuff you were describing (grabbing neck and going for the legs? Okay.) Anyway, I turn my back in sparring all the time when I attempt a throw. Sometimes I get the throw. Sometimes I get the counter. When I'm countered there's an opportunity for me to get taken down. Sometimes I get taken down, sometimes I don't. Those times I don't get taken down I'm pretty sure I could pull a knife if I hand one on me. Then after the takedown you STILL have to lock in some type of submission that either A) controls my knife arm (and you don't know what arm that is) or B) puts me out before I can pull a knife. But that puts us back to square 1.



Try it. I think you'll find it is much harder than you think.


You try your takedown against someone that outweighs you by 110 lbs and who's skill level is comparible to yours. I think you'll find it much harder than you think.



Defending the choke requires you to use both hands. Hard to get the blade when you are doing that. Going for the knife makes the choke work faster because you are no longer protecting the neck.


Ok. Now I have to ask if YOU are "McDojo". Or maybe you just haven't been keeping up with the "state of the art". One thing I learned early on was when in back mount trying to sink an RNC (or do anything else) NEVER cross your ankles. Why? Because someone can easily put their leg over your ankles, ankle lock you, and tap you out fast. Nothing sucks worse than getting tapped when you were going for a "sure" submission or choke. Now, you may ask "what does this have to do with what I said?" Simple. GOOD BJJ will sometimes cross your legs for you and then go for the ankle lock. To do this they have to drop both of their hands from defending the RNC. How can they afford to do this? Simple. As long as you can keep your chin tucked you won't get choked out by an RNC. It will just hurt your jaw, but that's it. I've defended the RNC and had my own RNC defended by a chin tuck enough times to know this is absolutely true. So, if someone can drop both hands long enough to cross your legs and ankle lock you then certainly[b] they can drop [b]one hand long enough to pull out a knife. This certainty is only increased when the person pulling the knife is MUCH bigger and stronger than the person doing the choke.



I've been playing with this type of stuff for 20 + years now and I've found if you've got the neck from behind and halfway decent takedown skills from there, there's almost no way the guy is getting the blade out on the way down, especially if its in his pocket. Same thing once you hit the ground, if you know enough about ground positioning and weapons control.


And here we go with the "I've been doing this for (fill in the blank years)" nonsense. If you've done this for 20 years and don't know about tucking your chin on an RNC and going for an ankle lock, well you're due for a refresher course.



Too bad your BJJ curriculum isn't teaching you about what happens when weapons come into play when grappling and groundfighting.

There's only so many hours in a day, days in a week, weeks in a month ect. Hey, maybe you know a lot about knives. But you've got somethings to learn about the RNC.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Knifefighter]

John-
I've been training BJJ for 12 years and am a black belt.
You've been training for less than a year and are "almost" a blue belt.
I probably know more about the just the RNC than you do of BJJ altogether.

As far as the state of the art, it is pretty much the “backpack” method of setting up the RNC popularized by Marcello Garcia- a master of finishing from the back.
And for a perfect example of why you don’t want to take the back while standing against a bigger opponent, all you have to do is watch 150 lb. Garcia try to do it against a standing 250 lb. Ricco Rodriguez in the 2005 ADDC world championship absolute division. Rodriguez slammed Garcia’s brains into the mat from there. The only reason Garcia tried it there was because he thought slamming was against the rules.

95% of working out of the RNC is about hand control. One of the first things taught in BJJ is to always protect your neck with your hands- novice level principles.
You drop your hands to work the ankle cross submission and you will be choked out before you are able to get halfway there if you are doing it against someone who has a clue about what they are doing.A good BJJ guy will work to cross your ankles without stopping from defending with his hands.

What BJJ school are you training at that they are teaching you to drop your hands to work that submission?

[Knifefighter]

LOL at you now trying to take on the "street versus sport" argument that's usually used against you.
I've never claimed the sport is the same as the street. My position is that sport is a good laboratory and that there are similarities between the two. Sport is also closer to the street than only training in your studio against your training partners. Sport fighters also usually make better street fighters than those who have only trained in the studio.



Would an RNC on the ground be finished faster than a standing one?
Yes, because the control is better.

B)
Would an RNC on the ground make it harder to be able to pull a knife? Well..it depends. If the knife's in the back pocket, certainly if you have the opponent sitting on his butt he can't get to his knife. On the flipside if it's a boot knife it's easier to reach it from a grounded position, since you don't have to bend down.

Yes, always... because the person on the back has the option of trapping one or both arms with the leg(s). Many BJJ chokes are finished by trapping an arm to take away one of the defending hands.


Furthermore a slam simply isn't a good defense for an RNC. It MIGHT work and it MIGHT not. The only way it will work is if the choker gets knocked out.
But it's a great start. Most escapes from the RNC require your opponent's back to be on the ground. A great way to get him there and soften him up along the way is to slam him into the ground. Putting your hooks in from a standing position is completely stupid in a street situation.



In high school when we playing "no pads" tackle football someone much bigger than me by picking him up falling back with him falling on top. It knocked the snot out of me. (Litterally. I had a cold and this cleared my nose). Anyway, the bottom line is I wasn't knocked unconscious. Ok, this was outside in the grass which is softer than concrete but harder than mats in a ring. Anyway, if you have an RNC in and someone slams you like that and you're NOT knocked out, you'll still have the choke in. You'll also be in the standard position where the choke is normally finished.
And he'll be in the standard position for escaping if he knows how. The difference will be the same as your experience, he will knock the snot out of you before escaping.



Also note that if you feel someone getting ready to fall back you can always drop one or both of your feet to the ground.
Again, I will refer you to Garcia vs. Rodriguez. There was no time to get the hooks out.


Well we extend the opponent, but that has nothing to do with him standing. Nobody at my school would be dumb enough to try to stand to get out of an RNC.
That's because you only train for sport. Slamming is illegal in most sport competitions. Standing (assuming your oppnent doesn't know how to stop you from doing this), slamming, and then working the back escape is a devastating way to escape the RNC.


And the person in the triangle doesn't have the option of doing a move that stops the slam but keeps the choke (like the person in the RNC does by dropping one or both feet to the floor.)

Actually, he does, and it's an even more realistic defense than the one you are proposing, but that is getting off the subject so I won't go there.


How about I grab a whitebelt that weighs 100 lbs less than me and let him try? Also a "back grip" is quite different from that stuff you were describing (grabbing neck and going for the legs?

The neck grip is even more effective than the back grip. Go ahead and have someone significantly lighter than you grab you around the neck (forearm across the neck with a three finger, clasp or Gable grip with the other hand). Now try to access your knife from your pocket as he kicks into the back of your knee and pulls back into your neck with full force. Let me know how it turns out and how long before your neck is back to normal.



You try your takedown against someone that outweighs you by 110 lbs and who's skill level is comparible to yours. I think you'll find it much harder than you think.
Been there, done that a few times, but it is very hard on the neck.



As long as you can keep your chin tucked you won't get choked out by an RNC.
Again, I have to ask where are you training that they are not teaching you how to get the RNC when your opponent has only the chin tucked and no hand control?

Here are couple of things you can try out the next time someone drops his hands from defending while you are back mounted... one arm pulls back on the forehead (or under the nose if you are in a MMA match, or into the eyes if there are no rules) while the other slides under the chin, transition into a three finger or standard clasp grip and then into the RNC.

[anerlich]

As long as you can keep your chin tucked you won't get choked out by an RNC.

What KF said, plus if your chin is tucked you can still get facelocked right into the ER if it's not sport jiu jitsu. Getting choked out might almost be preferable.

[Asia]

What KF said, plus if your chin is tucked you can still get facelocked right into the ER if it's not sport jiu jitsu. Getting choked out might almost be preferable.

Very true. You can easily switch to a face lock and dislocate a persons jaw, I've done this before.

And for those that think it takes longer than 10secs to be choked out I offer this:
Randy Couture choking out a hottie. (http://www.thedailycouncil.com/video/girlgetschockedout.wmv)
I have no idea WHY this girl volunteered for this but note it takes 10sec for here to be out and she is CALM. If she is struggling it can take less time for the choke to take effect.


Right. And most of these (well ALL of these) people don't have a knife and don't consider it a "fight to the death". If I feel someone has a choke locked in and there's really nothing I can do I'll tap rather than sit there and "go unconscious". But that's different from if I was on the street and thought there might be "no walking away from this one" AND if I had a knife. Really, think about it. I have to have a hand free to "tap" right? If I have that hand free and if I can get to my knife I can slice/stab just as easily as I can "tap".


I agree but thats not the point I was making the BS UWC was spewing. Trust me if I had a knife I am going for that as well because once I lose consciousness I could be done for. HOWEVER in a real fight, hell even in the ring, I am aware of what the person is doing becauce even if the choke is in there are still seconds for them to doing something and the wild survial instinct is going to kick in. When I've done this for real I had guys try all sorts of things to get out. Thats why I will do things like jerk them around and kick the back of the knee so the lose balance and have something else to think about along with choking. This is something that comes form experience and not just trying something for the first time in a real fight without sufficient practice.


Oh, and for the record, he're someone finishing a standing rear naked choke in UFC 45. I guess he must be a "McDojo" BJJ fighter huh?


Notice in the FULL picture Hughes has a hook in and still has decent control of the body.

[jmdrake]

What KF said, plus if your chin is tucked you can still get facelocked right into the ER if it's not sport jiu jitsu. Getting choked out might almost be preferable.

LOL. Oh please! I don't know how many times I've put the pressure on someone's face trying to get lock the choke in and they didn't tap. Often they said afterward "it was hurting my face" but it did NOT send them to the ER. You're freakin dreaming. And maybe a "face lock" is illegal in some tournaments, but not in the one I competed in. In the rules meeting nothing was mentioned about face locks. They talked about legs locks (some were legal and some were not) but face locks we're covered so it's safe to assume they are legal.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[jmdrake]

Notice in the FULL picture Hughes has a hook in and still has decent control of the body.

Ummm....I noticed that. I pointed that out in my rebuttal to knifefighter's nonsense. And throughout the thread I've been pointing out the fact that negative had his hooks in. Yes, you need at least one hook in to stop the other guy from flipping you. But then you need hooks in to pull of the RNC on the ground too. (Unless you're dealing with someone who's totally clueless about what you're trying to do.)

And I guess that's my point. Being on the ground doesn't change the dynamics of the RNC all that much. Yes, most submissions only work on the ground. But RNC is one of the few that works either way. Hughes was clearly in a superior position, but Yenhoi insists on calling that "inferior" in the face of the facts. And despite being 110 lighter negative was getting the desired effect (the biker's knees were buckling) regardless of whether or not knifefighter or yenhoi think she was in the "proper position". Getting the desired effect (threat neutralized before you get stabbed) is really all that matters.

Anyway, this all comes down to simple probability theory. Let's assume negative could have choked thug biker out if he hadn't countered within 10 seconds. That's a fair assumption considering his knees we're buckling at 5 seconds. (Again, nobody was actually timing this so this is just an estimation). So let's say 5 to 10 seconds to do the choke out. The time it took thug biker to pull the knife is somewhere between the time he felt her jump on his back and the time he stabbed her. This is difficult to guage, but I think it's safe to say he had a 50 percent (.5) probability of stabbing his way out of the choke. (Anyway reading this, feel free to adjust the numbers as long as you JUSTIFY your adjustment).

Alright, according to the story that's basically ONE event. (Negative jumping on back, sinking in hooks and going for choke.) Now, following the knifefighter/yenhoi argument you've increased the events from 1 to 3. There's the takedown, the moving into position for the submission, and the submission itself. Each of those has a probability associated with it for biker thug to get his knife out. Yenhoi concedes no takedown is 100%. So let's say the takedown in 90% (.9). Now there's the time spend wrestling around on the ground to get postion. Let's say you're 70% certain you can do this without thug being able to pull out a knife. Remember, we don't know where the knife maybe hidden so we can't say "just controll his right arm" or "just make sure he doesn't reach his front pants pockets". Now for argument's sake, even though I don't concede this is true, let's assume being on the ground significantly decreases the time it takes to finish the RNC and/or decreases his ability to pull the knife. So we'll up the probability of finishing the choke before getting stabbed from 50 percent to say 70 percent. (.7)

Now multiply out the probability. 0.9 * 0.7 * 0.7 = 0.441

So we've effectively DECREASED the chance of escaping the encounter without getting stabbed from 50 percent to 44 percent!

People might get upset with me for asking for a "perfect" takedown or an "almost perfect" takedown, but that's because they're ignoring the compounding probabilities. Unless the dynamics of the actually RNC is THAT much different from standing and on the ground (and the empirical evidence STRONGLY suggests that it isn't) then you have to be VERY sure that you have a VERY good odds of success the events that take place while getting to your "preferred" RNC position.

In conclusion, I REALLY don't have any advice for negative (other than buy a handgun and learn effectively how to use it.) This was a SUCKY situation. Self defense is often a crapshoot and the odds were stacked against her. Doing what she did, at least she made good of the element of surprised. (Under knifefighter/yenhoi's scenario that's used up during the takedown). Maybe if she had been a bit stronger she could have pulled it off. Maybe knifefighter/yenhoi's advice would have increased her odds. Or maybe it would have simply gotten her killed. She walked away without being permanently maimed. Chalk it up as a win.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[jmdrake]

John-
I've been training BJJ for 12 years and am a black belt.
You've been training for less than a year and are "almost" a blue belt.
I probably know more about the just the RNC than you do of BJJ altogether.


Maybe, but that doesn't mean you know everything about the RNC. So you've really never heard of tucking your chin?



As far as the state of the art, it is pretty much the “backpack” method of setting up the RNC popularized by Marcello Garcia- a master of finishing from the back.
And for a perfect example of why you don’t want to take the back while standing against a bigger opponent, all you have to do is watch 150 lb. Garcia try to do it against a standing 250 lb. Ricco Rodriguez in the 2005 ADDC world championship absolute division. Rodriguez slammed Garcia’s brains into the mat from there. The only reason Garcia tried it there was because he thought slamming was against the rules.


Again you're ignoring the fact that no slam was attempted in this story. I'm talking about what DID happen as opposed to what MIGHT have happened. What DID happen is negative got stabbed, and she could have gotten stabbed even if she had taken the biker to the floor first. And maybe Garcia should train with Hughes so he'll learn to drop (or keep) one leg on the floor to ward of the slam. Anyway, off subject.



95% of working out of the RNC is about hand control. One of the first things taught in BJJ is to always protect your neck with your hands- novice level principles.


You tuck your chin AND use your hands. Again, nobody ever taught you that?



You drop your hands to work the ankle cross submission and you will be choked out before you are able to get halfway there if you are doing it against someone who has a clue about what they are doing.


If you don't have a clue and know to tuck your chin yes. If you do have a clue and you have your chin tucked you've got a couple of seconds to pull that off, depending on the strength of the person trying to choke you. (In this case, someon that weighs 110 lbs less than you.)



What BJJ school are you training at that they are teaching you to drop your hands to work that submission?

What school are you training at where they didn't clue you into tucking your chin?

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Knifefighter]

So you've really never heard of tucking your chin?
Of course I have... but it doesn't do you much good if you are not defending with the hands.

What school are you training at where they didn't clue you into tucking your chin?

My first six years was at Torrance Gracie training mostly with Royce. I now train out of the Caique Academy.
Who is teaching you?

[jmdrake]

Of course I have... but it doesn't do you much good if you are not defending with the hands.


Well it's good to know that you have, though it's odd that you're just now mentioning this in the thread. Tucking the chin is one of the most important things you can do, and you've pretty much ignored that to this point.

Now, as for your point "it doesn't do you much good"...well I never said it did MUCH good. Just that it can buy you a couple of seconds. Yep, there's a risk if you drop your hands that your opponent will be able to pull his or her arm under your chin. (Small risk if your outweigh your opponent by 110 lbs).



My first six years was at Torrance Gracie training mostly with Royce. I now train out of the Caique Academy.
Who is teaching you?

What difference does that make? For the record I train at NashvilleMMA and they're under Lloyd Irving. But I care not for the "my sensei is better than your sensei" games people like to play. I only care about emperical evidence.

Oh, here's a thread of some other BJJ people who have looked at this.

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=313000

Some agree with you on the "slam" versus standing RNC. Some say "that won't work". One person mentioned the OBVIOUS point I made:

As for slamming, bad idea. Also, if i am the one on the back, I will usually be ready to disengage my legs and jump off if I have to.

Oh, some more advice:

You can tuck your chin down and turn you chin towards your shoulder while bringing your shoulder to your chin, if he starts to loosen his grip make sure he doesn't apply the neck crank.

Another good thing to do is grab the outside of one of his feet with 1 arm and place your elbow from that arm in between his shin and his calf muscle and pull up hard with your other hand pulling on the heel if its not being used defending the choke, this hurts like hell and you may end up subbing him with it.

And this:

Yeh tuck your chin down and try and unhook ur legs, once youve done that , put one of ur legs behind ur oppnent so you are in a side head lock position, then from there you can do many things, u can slip you head out, go for an armlock or you can pick him up and take him down forards or backwards.

These techniques are for MMA or Sunbmission wrestling, if it is another discipline I have no idea

So I'm not the only one that knows you can release (at least) one arm and do something with it while defending the RNC if you have your chin tucked.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[anerlich]

Oh please! I don't know how many times I've put the pressure on someone's face trying to get lock the choke in and they didn't tap.

You may have technical issues with the proper execution of face locks, as you claim knifefighter does with the RNC, even with a whole year as a Lloyd Irving [sic] BJJ white belt behind you.

Ive had competent (the difference, IMO) grapplers catch me with this and I definitely felt the real possibility of injury. I had no choice but to tap.

I've heard of broken jaws, every black belt I've talked to about this mentions it so I very much doubt it is the urban legend you claim, and it's obviously possible to at least break someone's nose this way. You may be too tough to go to the ER in such a circumstance, but that would be your choice (and a foolish one).

We could go into eye gouges, neck cranks, etc. from this position as well, chin tucked or no.

I would imagine this would be treated as a "pressure point" attack in many tournaments, not that its illegality or otherwise is a central issue here. Try it in your next tourney and see how popular it makes you with the ref, judges and your fellow competitors.

I saw two tough customers in UFC8 (Elvis Sinosic, Chris Haseman) submit to chin pressure to the face. You CAN hurt and damage people this way.


What difference does that make?

LOL, you ask him here he trains, he answers your question, then you berate him for it by saying the above :p

[jmdrake]

You may have technical issues with the proper execution of face locks, as you claim knifefighter does with the RNC, even with a whole year as a Lloyd Irving [sic] BJJ white belt behind you.


I never claimed to be an expert on face locks. I've only claimed that they weren't "banned" in the BJJ competion I was in. Learn to read.



Ive had competent (the difference, IMO) grapplers catch me with this and I definitely felt the real possibility of injury. I had no choice but to tap.


Great. Wonderfull. Now did you have a knife on you? Reality check. This thread is about dealing with an opponent that had a knife. Not about getting someone to tap.



I've heard of broken jaws, every black belt I've talked to about this mentions it so I very much doubt it is the urban legend you claim, and it's obviously possible to at least break someone's nose this way. You may be too tough to go to the ER in such a circumstance, but that would be your choice (and a foolish one).


Never said it wasn't a possibility. But if you honestly think a 135 lbs woman is going to stop a 240 lbs biker from stabbing her just with a pain submission you're kidding yourself.



We could go into eye gouges, neck cranks, etc. from this position as well, chin tucked or no.


I suppose it was only a matter of time before someone brought up the "almighty eye gouge".



I would imagine this would be treated as a "pressure point" attack in many tournaments, not that its illegality or otherwise is a central issue here. Try it in your next tourney and see how popular it makes you with the ref, judges and your fellow competitors.


Ohhhh....pressure points. I'm sure that has every biker that's been to a George Dillman seminar shaking in his boots.



I saw two tough customers in UFC8 (Elvis Sinosic, Chris Haseman) submit to chin pressure to the face. You CAN hurt and damage people this way.


Again, neither of those people had a knife. Neither of those people felt they might "die" if they lost.



LOL, you ask him here he trains, he answers your question, then you berate him for it by saying the above :p

Reading isn't your strongpoint is it? Knifefigher asked me where I trained FIRST and he asked me in a smartassed way. It wasn't the "Hey let's just trade information about where we train" way but the "Your sensei must not know anything because he told you something different from what my sensei told me" way. And I haven't "berated" him for answering the question. I haven't "berated" him at all. I'm berating you because you can't read.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[anerlich]

I never claimed to be an expert on face locks.

No just on RNC after a year :p . Your inexpertise on face locks requires no admission.


I've only claimed that they weren't "banned" in the BJJ competion I was in. Learn to read.

You clearly generalised your own failures with them into "they don't work". Get your buds who also disagree to post here.

Perhaps you should take your own advice about learning to read, starting with your own posts :p


This thread is about dealing with an opponent that had a knife.

The topic of the thread seems to fluctuate depending whether or not your arguments are flying or getting shot down. When the latter happens, you say "the thread isn't about that", and vou're off on a different tangent. Interesting to watch ... if you have a fascination for the strange.

The thread was actually about a brave girl who did her best to protect her boss and paid dearly for it.


Reading isn't your strongpoint is it?

Nor yours, apparently, and you seem to have spelling and/or usage problems as well.

It's "strong point", and it's "Lloyd Irvin".


Knifefigher asked me where I trained FIRST and he asked me in a smartassed way. It wasn't the "Hey let's just trade information about where we train" way but the "Your sensei must not know anything because he told you something different from what my sensei told me" way. And I haven't "berated" him for answering the question. I haven't "berated" him at all.

And now I'm berating you for reading a whole lot of stuff he never said into his statements :p :p :p And isn't KF such a bad guy for being a smartass when you've been so polite and respectful to all throughout :p

I can tell my training buds I've met a "one year white belt, 'almost a blue' who trains at a school under some guy called Lloyd Irving in the US who knows everything about the RNC and how to grapple with a knife carrying 250 lb biker. Get this guy here for a $5000 a day seminar, NOW! Don't invite any black belts though, because this guy will just EMBARRASS them!"

Nice talking to you John, you're a hoot. Now take a cold shower or something, OK?

[Phil Redmond]

Andrew, I had no clue that negative was a female. I give her bigger props now.
Phil

[jmdrake]

No just on RNC after a year :p . Your inexpertise on face locks requires no admission.


Gee. It's not like RNC is all that difficult. Anyway my point is you were putting words in my mouth.



You clearly generalised your own failures with them into "they don't work". Get
your buds who also disagree to post here.


Please quote where I said "they don't work"? I didn't. I just did an LOL at your cliam that a face lock is a "worse position" than an RNC. But if it's so worse than why not skip RNCs and just go for face locks?



Perhaps you should take your own advice about learning to read, starting with your own posts :p


I've read my own posts. Never did I say "face locks won't work". But I guess in your mind the fact that I laughed at your ER story and claim that face locks are worse than RNC means I said that? Ok. Whatever you want to believe.



The topic of the thread seems to fluctuate depending whether or not your arguments are flying or getting shot down. When the latter happens, you say "the thread isn't about that", and vou're off on a different tangent. Interesting to watch ... if you have a fascination for the strange.


LOL. As far as I'm concerned the topic of the thread has never fluctuated. It's about whether or not someone make the best choice in an encounter with a knife. I'm not sure why you consider that a "strange fascination". Oh and I see you made a typo. I think you meant "you're" rather than "vou're". I'm just pointing that out because later you make a big deal over my typo on "Irvin".

Also my argument hasn't been "shot down". You can't shoot down an argument about whether or not someone can pull a knife while defending an RNC if as a part of your argument you "fluctuate" and ignore the fact that the person is carrying a knife. But hey, maybe you should go into politics. This kind of "dodging the actual question" can come in quite handy for you.



The thread was actually about a brave girl who did her best to protect her boss and paid dearly for it.


The title of the thread is "Why I will never try to choke or submit someone on the street". The girl realized what she did didn't work. Knifefighter and yenhoi think her chances would have greatly increased if she had taken him to the ground first. I disagree. It's really that simple.




Nor yours, apparently, and you seem to have spelling and/or usage problems as well.

It's "strong point", and it's "Lloyd Irvin".


And "vou've" misspelled "you've".




And now I'm berating you for reading a whole lot of stuff he never said into his statements :p :p :p And isn't KF such a bad guy for being a smartass when you've been so polite and respectful to all throughout :p


I was being nice and polite until KF made the following comment:

Looks like the McDojoization of BJJ has begun.

So, oh great and wise one, explain to me why I should think KF wasn't being a smartass?

Anyway, you and he have still missed the point on the technical issues on the argument of whether or not someone can pull a knife while defending an RNC. The question is, can you buy yourself a few seconds to pull a knife while defending an RNC with one arm and with chin tucked. I say yes, especially if you outweigh the opponent by 110 lbs. That doesn't mean that in a situation where there is no knife someone can't EVENTUALLY sink in the choke. Also, even if there isn't a knife, let's say you get in a face lock and I get in an ankle lock. You might break my jaw, and I might break your ankle.

One more thing. KF keeps harping on what I was "taught" rather then considering what people have SEEN happen in actual high level BJJ competitions. This is the same baloney we see in the "traditional" martial arts world. "My sifu taught me to do bong sau this way and my sifu is better because he was taught by so and so 50 years ago". That's nice. But in a real tournament (as well as a real fight) things happen fast. And some things boil down to a bit of luck. There's a counter to everything and stuff happens. That's why I posted the link to the Sherdog thread. Other people have had success defending the RNC keeping the chin tucked and temporarilly (as in for a VERY short time) dropping one hand to move hooks or do other things. Maybe such a move would never work against an KF trained fighter. Then maybe again one of KF's guys would end up with a broken ankle or stabbed. You can play it out in your own mind however you wish.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Knifefighter]

Please quote where I said "they don't work"? I didn't. I just did an LOL at your cliam that a face lock is a "worse position" than an RNC. But if it's so worse than why not skip RNCs and just go for face locks?

I have to agree with you here. I never go for face locks for two reasons- 1) in sport competitions, many people consider them to be kind of cheap and not very sportsmanlike; 2) I think the risk of getting bitten in a street situation is too high.


LOL. As far as I'm concerned the topic of the thread has never fluctuated. It's about whether or not someone make the best choice in an encounter with a knife.
Actually, the best choice for a 140 lb woman against a 250 lb man with his back turned would have been frying pan fu.


The title of the thread is "Why I will never try to choke or submit someone on the street". The girl realized what she did didn't work.

And one of my points was the reason it didn't work was because she had never trained it and probably didn't have a clue to how to make it work. The chances are, it wasn't on correctly and he wasn't going out. Anyone who has been choked out knows that your arms are worthless as you start to pass out. That's why many people get choked out during competitions, they try to tap at the last second, but can't.



I was being nice and polite until KF made the following comment:

Looks like the McDojoization of BJJ has begun.

So, oh great and wise one, explain to me why I should think KF wasn't being a smartass?
Of course I was being a smartass. However, BJJ, as developed by the Gracies, would never have you stop defending the neck to go for an ankle lock that will allow the choke to be sunk deeper or a shin lock that will set you up for an arm-bar.


One more thing. KF keeps harping on what I was "taught" rather then considering what people have SEEN happen in actual high level BJJ competitions.
Two points here:
1- BJJ competitions take place on mats, not hard surfaces and are often illegal, anyway. Slams that are allowed have less of an effect, although they have often shown to still be effective.
2- Have you ever seen an ankle lock or shin lock pulled off from a back mount in a high level competition. I know I haven't and I've been observing competitions for a number of years.

[jmdrake]

I have to agree with you here. I never go for face locks for two reasons- 1) in sport competitions, many people consider them to be kind of cheap and not very sportsmanlike; 2) I think the risk of getting bitten in a street situation is too high.


Actually, the best choice for a 140 lb woman against a 250 lb man with his back turned would have been frying pan fu.


Or she could have taken off her shoes and tried some toe-fu. :D



And one of my points was the reason it didn't work was because she had never trained it and probably didn't have a clue to how to make it work. The chances are, it wasn't on correctly and he wasn't going out. Anyone who has been choked out knows that your arms are worthless as you start to pass out. That's why many people get choked out during competitions, they try to tap at the last second, but can't.


Well that's possible. I usually tap as soon as I know it's sunk in and I have no escape options left rather than wait until I'm "seeing stars". But I can't imagine stabbing some 135 lbs woman if I wasn't in danger of choking. I'd think that would be bad for my rep. But then again I'm not a 240 lb biker and I might not understand that mindset.



Of course I was being a smartass.


Naw. [:D] And to be honest I don't mind you being a smartass. I was just a bit put off by anerlich making me out to be the bad guy for giving a smartass answer to a smartass question. Anyway, I guess that means we have something in common. [:)]



However, BJJ, as developed by the Gracies, would never have you stop defending the neck to go for an ankle lock that will allow the choke to be sunk deeper or a shin lock that will set you up for an arm-bar.


Two points here:
1- BJJ competitions take place on mats, not hard surfaces and are often illegal, anyway. Slams that are allowed have less of an effect, although they have often shown to still be effective.
2- Have you ever seen an ankle lock or shin lock pulled off from a back mount in a high level competition. I know I haven't and I've been observing competitions for a number of years.

Ok. I think I need to explain this in detail. My instructor wasn't teaching us the ankle lock when he went over this. Rather he was stressing how to maintain your hooks in back mount. First he said to NEVER cross your feet because someone who knows anything will immediately ankle lock you. Then he added that he'd seen SOME high level guys cross their opponents feet for them. His point was to keep your hooks high and tight to prevent that from happening. I asked him about the possibility of just sinking the choke in deeper and he said "Yes that can happen. It's a risk. But this happens VERY fast when it happens."

Now, I take exception to the "stop defending the neck" part of your statement. Why? Because tucking the chin is part (in my book anyway) of defending the neck. Maybe it's only a small part, but it's still a part. Consider sequence from lockflow.com

http://www.lockflow.com/article_view.php?id=403

The author is basically doing what anerlich suggested. (Skipping out on RNC and going for a face lock). But note this comment.

In a rear mount, a natural instinct is to go for a rear naked choke. In this case my opponent tucked his chin. Take what is given to you don't force something that is not there.

Anyway, I haven't personally watched a ton of competitions. I'm going off what my instructor told me he saw.

As for the "slams", I know I'm beating a dead horse here but that didn't happen in this particular story. I think if someone tried to slam me I'd have a decent chance to drop hooks and put my feet to the floor as was suggested on Sherdog or I could just keep one hook in and one on the floor and Hughes did. If I was the one being choked and I had a knife I wouldn't bother with slamming at all, but that's just me.

Anyway, I think we all agree it was a messed up situation. A handgun would probably have helped more than anything else.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Merryprankster]

John,

Do you train with Ed Clay?

Nice guy.

Tell him James Valentine said hey.

[jmdrake]

John,

Do you train with Ed Clay?

Nice guy.

Tell him James Valentine said hey.

Yes. I'll tell him that. Small world!

Regards,

John M. Drake